Preterism the new frontier of eschatology

[marie glen]

Amen.. I totally agree.. Yet I also believe in literal fulfillment (as individual and also collective/spiritual and also manifest, and) just as His prophesied first coming was literally fulfilled. And the whole thing to me is very glorious as the blueprint and draft of God, of teaching all good from evil, which I think is also life from death. And by this He is writing His law upon every heart and mind.. sealing all. And I believe thus also sealing paradise, or perfection (that is).

That it isn't only the us, He's creating.. but the whole thing, from His very first act of creating.. what it is He is building.. a temple of which we all are a stone of.. absolutely. But looking at the vastness, the great vastness of the universe, and the unbelievable array of life upon Earth, one planet alone.. I think it too is glorious.. and will be made new..made new implying something that is made new.. not a completely and totally new something. The glory of what He is creating we only see a slight shadow of.. And it is still immensely glorious.

Once in awhile we can still come across the extreme which I think is residue from the gnostics to not only underestimate the creation - it may be subject to vanity now, but in the beginning it was all good, and man's fall, I believe, having come first implies cause and effect as being vice versa of what the gnostics strongly believed - that man fell into matter; and carnality and flesh means body. Rather than the carnal character which is self seeking.. Of such were the Nicolaitans, I believe, which "thing" we know He says He hates.. because it leads astray.. pollutes God's temple. I think this is the source of Et's floating off to heaven afterlife vision, of a floating around, unsubstantial, bodiless afterlife, being inherently immortal but having fallen into the bad thing, matter, the universe.. All that, I believe, stems from disrespect of, or doubting the goodness of what God is creating and has created. So a "made new" earth and paradise, is abhorrent to them, well, the gnostics, that is/was, maybe not to all Et'ers. :faint:

"What good is it" Paul wrote, to the Corinthians(1) "if Christ did not rise" literally - "if Christ did not rise - then those who have fallen asleep in  Christ are perished.."

[marie glen]

1 Larry H, I forgot to mention how the verses in Revelation - "soon" are more closely read "quickly" as in "occurs quickly"

As in - Rev.1:1 - https://biblehub.com/interlinear/revelation/1-1.htm

"Berean Literal Bible
The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants what things it behooves to take place in quickness. And He signified it through having sent His angel to His servant, John,"

I was reading some of the commentary on biblehub also, and I agree with these (and more, but I won't copy/post it all :laughing7: (from: https://biblehub.com/commentaries/revelation/1-1.htm)

Quote -
Shortly.—On this word much controversy has turned. Its force, “speedily,” affords a groundwork, and, it must be admitted, a plausible one, to the præterist school of interpreters, who hold that the whole range of Apocalyptic predictions was fulfilled within a comparatively short time after the Apostle wrote. The truth, however, seems to be that the words of God are of perpetual fulfilment: they are not only to be fulfilled; they have not only been fulfilled; but they have been and they are being fulfilled; and they yet will be fulfilled; and the principles which are enunciated by the Prophet, though “shortly” fulfilled, are not exhausted in the immediate fulfilment, but carry still lessons for the succeeding generations of mankind.

Benson Commentary
Revelation 1:1. The book opens with the title or inscription of the book itself, and an account of the scope and design of it, namely, to foretel things which should shortly begin to be fulfilled, and should succeed in their due season and order till all were accomplished. The Revelation — Properly so called; for things covered before, are here revealed, or unveiled. No prophecy in the Old Testament has this title; it was reserved for this alone in the New. It is, as it were, a manifesto, wherein the Heir of all things declares, that all power is given him in heaven and earth..

Matthew Henry's Concise Commentary
1:1-3 This book is the Revelation of Jesus Christ; the whole Bible is so; for all revelation comes through Christ, and all relates to him. Its principal subject is to discover the purposes of God concerning the affairs of the church, and of the nations as connected therewith, to the end of the world. These events would surely come to pass; and they would begin to come to pass very shortly. Though Christ is himself God, and has light and life in himself, yet, as Mediator between God and man, he receives instructions from the Father. To him we owe the knowledge of what we are to expect from God, and what he expects from us. The subject of this revelation was, the things that must shortly come to pass. On all who read or hear the words of the prophecy, a blessing is pronounced. Those are well employed who search the Bible. It is not enough that we read and hear, but we must keep the things that are written, in our memories, in our minds, in our affections, and in practice, and we shall be blessed in the deed. Even the mysteries and difficulties of this book are united with discoveries of God, suited to impress the mind with awe, and to purify the soul of the reader, though he may not discern the prophetic meaning. No part of Scripture more fully states the gospel, and warns against the evil of sin.

(which to me is anything not built on The Rock, cannot endure.. cannot remain standing for ever.. Because the foundations other than The Rock, always will crumble, being true both individually and collectively.)
    :Peace2:

I do plan to look up some of the other "soon" uses... Because, as we know, truth is in His Word.. As He delivered it, I would assume.. meaning translators are not infallible. :gsmile:


..."The lion will eat straw like the ox and the bear will graze with the cow".. It'd be sad, to me, to think we've seen the fullness of that fulfilled.. (of course that's not in Mt.24, but the prophesies throughout are so similar..)

[MusicLover123]

I forgot to mention how the verses in Revelation - "soon" are more closely read "quickly" as in "occurs quickly"

Yay!  :banana:

[1 Larry H]

Hi ...you got some good stuff there,  however  I would like to get back  to your original  posted questions  how some in the full preterist camp view the  New Jerusalem. Strangely enough the book of Genesis paves the way for the answer. In other words the bible begin and ends with that thought in mind.

When Adam and Eve ate the forbidden fruit as we know they were sentence to death. However the only death they suffered was sin death i.e. spiritual death which is separation from God.  "your iniquities have separated you from your God;" Isaiah 59:2 Followed by the pairs eviction from the Garden of Eden. Isolated from the "Tree of Life"

That would suggest that Adam was not born with the prospect of biological eternal life to begin with outside of God's arrangement through Christ. 
In other words If  they had not sinned "which would deviate from God's original
purpose" they would have died of old age anyway. 

If God is a wall of fire around Jerusalem and the glory in her midst- we are the
New Jerusalem, His bride "coming down out of heaven"

Excellent, I was getting ready for the same answer, and you took all the fun out of it. However I would take that a little further and say we are now residing in the New Heavens and Earth mention in Rev.21

[marie glen]

 :dontknow: I don't know..

Is it the word "olam" that includes often, as part of it, the whole.. It seems like a pattern I see over and over in the scriptures. That nothing is so much like a straight line as like a circle(?)

So to say things were coming soon, the end of one thing and the beginning of another.. and told to keep the things written, seems to imply throughout the age.. and not all fulfilled so early on.

But full preterist is better than full futurist! That one takes the book and vision and locks it in a box titled 7 years only. Oy. I think best thing is to just keep it out teading schedule each year.. or whenever the Spirit leads, of course.

It seems to imply to me, parts of the first chapter, and the last too, that to understand it ("hear it") is to be "blessed", which sounds good, as we're pretty blessed already! :mlaugh:

I agree the beginning of all things being made new is with us already.. as the new Jerusalem, but I expect to see much more concrete fulfillment. And I guess time will tell..

What is the full preterist view of the future? Does anything happen to change the age we're in, or does life and generations and nations rising and falling continue into all foreseeable future..?
Thanks, God bless!

[1 Larry H]

What is the full preterist view of the future? Does anything happen to change the age we're in, or does life and generations and nations rising and falling continue into all foreseeable future..?

Yes, that seems to be the scenario of the full preterist view since they believe all things were fulfilled in the first century.  My take is a little different then the full Preterist  ending, we die, and enter into the heavenly household of God in the likeness of Jesus.

In short this life is only a bus stop to the next. I don't find it  strange  that in the natural order of this planet all things get eradicated, including the biological human being. Since Adam and Eve never did have eternal life in the first place prior to the fall.

God left them, all with the blood of Adam, with a free will to choose for themselves in a world of corruption which I think caused the scenario question. It seem to me this world with never be a paradise as suggest by those who take Revelation 21:4 literally.

[marie glen]

Before 70 a.d the believers were "waiting for Jesus". Were they eagerly awaiting the happening of 70A.D?

It would be interesting to know if any Old Testament believers thought prophesies of His coming, and His suffering/passion was symbolic (spiritual application) and not literal...
:Peace2: :girlheart:

p.s. - What is Rev.3:10 believed to refer to? An "hour of trial coming upon the whole world"?

[1 Larry H]

What is Rev.3:10 believed to refer to? An "hour of trial coming upon the whole world"?

Revelation 3:10 Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth.

The word World in the Greek  which confuses what John meant.

If John wanted to use the word world, meaning out planet, He would have used the word kosmos. But he didn't he used oikoumene which refers to the Roman Empire.

World NT:3625 oikoumene (oy-kou-men'-ay); feminine participle present passive of NT:3611 (as noun, by implication of NT:1093); land, i.e. the (terrene part of the) globe; SPECIFICALLY, THE ROMAN EMPIRE:     Strong's Greek 

The King James Version has created  a paradigm which scholars today are trying to sort out of the mind programmed by that version .

Luke 2::1 And it came to pass in those days, that there went out a decree from Caesar Augustus, that all the world should be taxed.    KJV

Compare

Luke 2:1 In those days Caesar Augustus issued a decree that a census should be taken of the ENTIRE ROMAN WORLD     NIV

[marie glen]

Oh I agree with that.. lots of crazy stuff to keep things vague.. a spiritual conspiracy! (Is the one conspiracy I believe in for sure!)

Also the word said to be "world" can be rather, age.. :dsunny:

But I'm reminded of a few things.. how Jesus said to Thomas after His resurrection how Thomas was blessed to see, but even more blessed are those who believe but have not seen.. Which is of course all the rest of us..

He also told the disciples He would be with them until the completion/consummation of the age. And of course it does read, as do so many things, as though He is speaking to all believers throughout the generations and not only to the disciples..

I can't think that Jesus was only with believers until 70a.d.

However, the whole revelation visit fits in the first horseman of the apocalypse/vision/unveiling. That riding forth on white horse and victor's crown - often translated wreath and made a big deal of, but then translated elsewhere as crown "diadem". Jesus "forever pre-eminent" over "all". But "everything is not yet under His feet, for He must reign until all is under His feet so that God may be all in all".

What a beautiful plan of God... This sealing of all..

The going forth.. ride through the latter age, the years of the Lord, A.D. of the victorious gospel. The whole vision is in that white horse with rider - the ride of the gospel throughout the age.. (I'm repeating myself, I know.) See white horse and rider in chapter 19. coincidence? No. Ignored? Yes. Gotta keep the vision securely locked in a box called 7 years only. :laughing7:

The first horseman of the apocalypse - totally preterist. And the rider is metaphor/simile. But represents the literal going forth/ride of the gospel - victorious. (He's wearing the winner's wreath.)

But chapter 19, is like Jude quoted "from Enoch, 7th from Adam" how "He will come with myriads of angels.." which is exactly what is described in Rev.19.

And in my mind, totally futurist. Is that the right word?

"He must reign until all things are under Him, but we see not all things yet under Him" 1Cor.15:22–>28

Who are these teaches teaching it is all only simile..? Two sided attack? The schools, even Christian,  teach creation, Adam, Eve.. all simile only.. And a great "falling away" has occurred. But signs of the times seem to be veiled..

Now I hear the consummation and end of the age is also only simile..

When Daniel prophesied "wars will continue to the end" - does this mean always there shall be the horror of war and all inhumane doings and activities? Is the Earth like a penal colony where 'souls' are sent for re-education? Like I think Mormons believe.. we are the fallen angels? Then the soul returns to God. Or maybe that's just an urban legend! What a fascinating book the Bible is.. that so many creative stories come out of it.. (Truly.) People should write them into novels like the Harry Potter books.. I have one in my head, if I could just get it written!

I still think full preterist or full futurist are both extremes, and truth is much closer to the middle. Which I think is most often the way it is, somewhere in the middle.
:Peace2:

[1 Larry H]

Also the word said to be "world" can be rather, age..

Excelled Point, age instead of world in Matthew 24, it changes the whole concept of the great prediction by Jesus of the fall of Jerusalem and the destruction of the Jewish Temple. Not so great however for those poor souls who were trapped in their place of worship as the wall came down under divine intervention. Carried out by the Roman armies and their cohorts, set forth by Nero the beast of Revelation.

Revelation 13:18 This calls for wisdom. If anyone has insight, let him calculate the number of the beast, for it is man's number. His number is 666.

But I'm reminded of a few things.. how Jesus said to Thomas after His resurrection how Thomas was blessed to see, but even more blessed are those who believe but have not seen.. Which is of course all the rest of us..

"I think that the bottom line is that people refuse to believe, because they have to see it to believe it. I'm reminded of what Jesus said in Luke 17:20-21.

Once, on being asked by the Pharisees when the kingdom of God would come, Jesus replied, "The coming of the kingdom of God is not something that can be observed, nor will people say, 'Here it is,' or 'There it is,' because the kingdom of God is in your midst. *or among you

Jesus said to them that people wouldn't be able to point to it and say that it's over here or over there. In other words, it's not an observable kingdom. And yet, what are Christians "looking for" today? They, like the Pharisees, want to be able to" point to it and say that it's here! If it were an observable kingdom, then everyone would believe"

God Bless