Hello Brothers & Sisters,
So, I'm a relatively recent convert to the "Victorious Gospel." Romans 11:32 squashed my old theology like a pancake in November of last year, and I'm still getting my bearings. Disorienting but exhilarating at the same time. :)
I'm not sure what else to say but I look forward to conversations with you all!
Love,
Daniel
Welcome!! Such a great verse, and unlike some others which could be interpreted differently, that one is just so straightforward!
G'day Daniel;
Learning is not a five minute job.
Inspiration for me is what Paul points out in Roman 8;38,39 specifically state that NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 17, 2018, 02:13:44 AM
Disorienting but exhilarating at the same time. :)
I.M.O disorienting is the flesh; exhilarating is the spirit.
The warfare within us is spoken about by Paul in his writings to the Galations and the Romans; His conclusion is the reality of the work of Christ sets us free from failure and releases us from the slavery of our temporary dwelling in this age getting us ready for a glorious future beyond our ability to fully understand.
His love NEVER fails.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2018, 04:13:26 AM
Welcome!! Such a great verse, and unlike some others which could be interpreted differently, that one is just so straightforward!
Sadly, if that were true then UR would be the prevailing Christian position and it isn't I don't know for sure but I expect it's the word 'might' that the church is generally reticent over, it makes them think where there's a 'might' there's also a 'might not'.
Foolish church, welcome, restlesshope.
Quote from: CST on April 17, 2018, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2018, 04:13:26 AM
Welcome!! Such a great verse, and unlike some others which could be interpreted differently, that one is just so straightforward!
Sadly, if that were true then UR would be the prevailing Christian position and it isn't I don't know for sure but I expect it's the word 'might' that the church is generally reticent over, it makes them think where there's a 'might' there's also a 'might not'.
Foolish church, welcome, restlesshope.
True...
But I just looked at the Greek and I am no Greek scholar but I'm curious as to where the "might" comes from. Apparently "he might show mercy to" is translated from a single word "eleese." It comes from "eleeo" or "eleos" which means "to show mercy" according to Strong's...
So "eleese" is an aorist subjunctive tense, which we don't have in English and is apparently hard to translate according to some articles I read.
I found a definition of aorist subjunctive Greek:
It is an action without history or continuation. A "pure form". A definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
Explanation:
Definition: a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, past action, without further limitation or implication.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aorist
However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
So my question is how does a "definite outcome" become "he might show mercy" which implies it is not a definite outcome?
Hi Daniel!
As time goes by, you might find that more and more verses just seem to obviously point in that direction.
For me, it is, 1 Corinthians 13:8. Love never fails.
Welcome! I think you will enjoy it here!
D.
Since we are sharing, my UR verse that solidified my belief was "...every knee shall bow..."
:dsunny:
Quote from: DandelionAs time goes by, you might find that more and more verses just seem to obviously point in that direction.
Oh, you definitely find more verses. Romans 11:32 was just the one that got the ball rolling! *grins*
Romans 11
31so they too have now disobeyed, in order that they too may now receive mercy through the mercy shown to you. 32For God has consigned all men to disobedience,
so that He may have mercy on them all. 33O, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable His judgments, and untraceable His ways!...
Salvation is of God and those that believe in His power to save us all
to me
:2c:
We are being delivered out of the world / evil and evil to come from sin and error , missing the mark ...
all of us
born in Adam are enemies of the cross , and must be
born again of the SPIRIT OF TRUTH
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 18, 2018, 07:11:02 AM
Quote from: DandelionAs time goes by, you might find that more and more verses just seem to obviously point in that direction.
Oh, you definitely find more verses. Romans 11:32 was just the one that got the ball rolling! *grins*
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 18, 2018, 04:22:03 AM
Since we are sharing, my UR verse that solidified my belief was "...every knee shall bow..."
:dsunny:
My own epiphany :doh:
Was found in Jesus WORDS MATT 5 and 6 in how to be as a new creature / holy thing in Christ
LOVE your enemies , If God can
STILL love us at our most evil and forgive us , many literally die in their sins and leave this world but , realizing the mercy God gave us by not allowing us to remain in an evil condition , by shortening the days
to only 70 years from Adams 930 years blew me away!!! Evil grieves the Holy Spirit within us when we are no longer partakers of it , so to love and pray for them that despitefully use you and abuse you are slaves to sin nature as we once were also , hoping for the salvation of all come easy to me than , because that is exactly what we desire to be saved from evil right ?
it is not the will of God that any should perish but suffers long and patiently with His creation !!!
2 Peter 3 8Beloved, do not let this one thing escape your notice:
With the Lord a day is like a thousand years, and a thousand years are like a day.
9The Lord is not slow to fulfill His promise as some understand slowness, but is patient with you, not wanting anyone to perish, but everyone to come to repentance.
10 But the day of the Lord will come like a thief. The heavens will disappear with a roar, the elements will be dissolved in the fire,
and the earth and its works will not be found....
When I saw that the earth and its works will not be found , I saw that is the sin and error nature dissolved by the burning fire of Gods love and remembered no more and counted as nothing in His sight !!!
Love for Him grew into somthing so wonderful as the fear subsided in not knowing Gods heart for mankind , it changed every perspective I had held on too before that time .
as many of those futile and worthless works are burned up by fire , but He himself will be saved in the day of the Lord and began to see the HOPE OF GLORY in Christ anointing of the Holy Spirit of GODS power , in many of the other scriptures too ... 1 Cor 3 Christ Our Foundation
...14If what he has built survives, he will receive a reward.
15If it is burned up, he will suffer loss. He himself will be saved, but only as one being snatched from the fire.
16
Do you not know that you yourselves are God's temple, and that God's Spirit dwells in you?...
:HeartThrob: His WORD will never return to Him void as it was sent out OVER THE VOID / us , our earthly bodies [Genesis 1 ;21In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. 2The earth was formless and void, and darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was moving over the surface of the waters.
Isaiah 55
so is my word that goes out from my mouth: It will not return to me empty/void ,
but will accomplish what I desire and achieve the purpose for which I sent it.!!!!!!!!!!!!
Glory to God !!!!!!!!! :HeartThrob:
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2018, 06:26:24 PM
Quote from: CST on April 17, 2018, 01:10:44 PM
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2018, 04:13:26 AM
Welcome!! Such a great verse, and unlike some others which could be interpreted differently, that one is just so straightforward!
Sadly, if that were true then UR would be the prevailing Christian position and it isn't I don't know for sure but I expect it's the word 'might' that the church is generally reticent over, it makes them think where there's a 'might' there's also a 'might not'.
Foolish church, welcome, restlesshope.
True...
But I just looked at the Greek and I am no Greek scholar but I'm curious as to where the "might" comes from. Apparently "he might show mercy to" is translated from a single word "eleese." It comes from "eleeo" or "eleos" which means "to show mercy" according to Strong's...
So "eleese" is an aorist subjunctive tense, which we don't have in English and is apparently hard to translate according to some articles I read.
I found a definition of aorist subjunctive Greek:
It is an action without history or continuation. A "pure form". A definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
Explanation:
Definition: a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, past action, without further limitation or implication.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aorist
However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
So my question is how does a "definite outcome" become "he might show mercy" which implies it is not a definite outcome?
Well, the obvious answer is that the translators are being less than honest in how they translate the text yet even the Young's and the Derby appear to use 'might' or 'may' which seem to be taken to mean pretty much the same thing in modern English.
The only one I found that doesn't use "may" or "might" is the Aramaic bible in plain English:
For God has shut every person into disobedience so that he shall have mercy upon every person.
Definition of may:
verb
modal verb: may
1.
expressing possibility.
"that may be true"
used when admitting that something is so before making another, more important point.
"they may have been old-fashioned, but they were excellent teachers"
2.
expressing permission.
"you may use a sling if you wish"
3.
expressing a wish or hope.
"may she rest in peace"
Origin
Old English mæg, of Germanic origin, from a base meaning 'have power'; related to Dutch mogen and German mögen, also to main1 and might2.
Interesting that the etymology means "have power."
So:
He may show mercy on all...
He has the possibility of showing mercy on all...
He can show mercy on all...
He has the power to show mercy on all.
Why does he have the possibility/ability/power to show mercy on ALL?
The fact that ALL have been bound in disobedience.
If all were not disobedient, God wouldn't be able to be merciful for all. We all wouldn't need mercy if some were obedient.
I still think it's a great UR verse! Sorry for hijacking the thread with my attempt at a word study. I guess if someone is looking at things with an ET mindset no bible verse is supportive of UR.
From the pulpit commentary on bible hub about Romans 11:32:
"Certainly the prospect of a universal triumph of the gospel before the end rises here before the apostle in prophetic vision; and it may be that it carries with it to his mind further glories of eternal salvation for all, casting their rays backward over all past ages, so as to inspire an unbounded hope. Such a hope, which seems elsewhere intimated (cf. 1 Corinthians 15:24-29; Ephesians 1:9, 10, 20-23; Colossians 1:15-20, would justify the glowing rhapsody of admiration and thanksgiving that follows more fully than if we supposed the apostle to contemplate still the eternal perdition of the multitudes who in all the ages have not on earth found mercy."
This seems to show that even a mainstream Christian can't deny that Paul's hope of universal salvation is clearly outlined several times, and some verses are referenced that support this.
One example of someone who acknowledged there are clear UR bible verses is Hans Urs von Balthasar who wrote "Dare we hope that all men be saved?"
He was a Christian theologian and saw two sets of biblical texts: (1) the two outcomes passages (Heaven and Hell) and (2) the salvation of all passages. He even spoke of the two sets of texts as "contradictory."
In Balthasar's view, we should heed the warning of the "two outcome" set of texts while hoping for the goal of the "salvation of all" texts.
Now, we here on TM know that the two types of passages are not contradictory because any warnings of two outcomes that can be interpreted as heaven/hell are not eternal, and some may speak to Earthtly judgement/punishment or some sort of coming age reward/punishment.
I may be ignorant, but isn't the Aramaic Bible in plain English simply a Bible the someone has translated from the original Greek, into what they think is the best Aramaic equivalent and then from there into what they think is the best English equivalent of of that? I don'y think we have any actual Aramaic texts of the New Testament.
QuoteI still think it's a great UR verse! Sorry for hijacking the thread with my attempt at a word study. I guess if someone is looking at things with an ET mindset no bible verse is supportive of UR.
You're not really hijacking the thread given that this passage was the first thing mentioned. That said you have succinctly described the problem, you don't need to convince me that's a UR passage everything you say makes perfect sense to me. But the sort of mental gymnastics ET and ED proponents have to use to make it not say what it clearly says is almost incomprehensible. I suspect it's possible to go as far as disconnecting the idea of 'mercy' from the idea of 'salvation'. Like God shows mercy to all in this life (or we'd all be destroyed for our sin) but dispenses it more selectively in the next one. Even though I'm quite sure that doesn't actually make sense as it seems more than a bit tricksy. When I believed in ET even while I didn't like it I had a lot of reservations about the character of God because pretty much everything sounded 'tricksy'. Of course I would just decide I must be wrong and reject all such 'unworthy' thoughts. Such is the power of indoctrination.
Yeah looks like it:
"The Aramaic New Testament of the Bible exists in two versions:
(1) the classical Aramaic, or Syriac, New Testament, part of the Pecrapta, translated from the Greek originals in the early centuries of the church.
(2) the Assyrian Modern Version New Testament and Psalms, published by the Bible Society in Lebanon (1997) and newly translated from Koine Greek. This version is mainly in use among Protestants."
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 17, 2018, 06:26:24 PM
But I just looked at the Greek and I am no Greek scholar but I'm curious as to where the "might" comes from. Apparently "he might show mercy to" is translated from a single word "eleese." It comes from "eleeo" or "eleos" which means "to show mercy" according to Strong's...
So "eleese" is an aorist subjunctive tense, which we don't have in English and is apparently hard to translate according to some articles I read.
I found a definition of aorist subjunctive Greek:
It is an action without history or continuation. A "pure form". A definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
Explanation:
Definition: a verb tense, as in Classical Greek, expressing action or, in the indicative mood, past action, without further limitation or implication.
http://www.dictionary.com/browse/aorist
However if the subjunctive mood is used in a purpose or result clause, then the action should not be thought of as a possible result, but should be viewed as a definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
So my question is how does a "definite outcome" become "he might show mercy" which implies it is not a definite outcome?
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! I think you're definitely on to something! Greek tenses are a total mystery to me.. but I think I understood that..
"
eleeó: to have pity or mercy on, to show mercy
from eleos: mercy, pity, compassion"
I'm not seeing an indication of "might" in that either!
Must be like the word 'forever'... we can find it in verses where a time word, in the original, doesn't seem to be there! :mfrown:
Quote
aorist verb tense.. A definite outcome that will happen as a result of another stated action.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: That's very helpful!
Welcome restlesshope91!
You may be interested in the following quote from http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html:
"11. Conclusion.
If I'm right that Romans 11:32 is a universalist passage, it's the thought of universalism that inspires what directly follows that verse -- Paul's wonderful doxology of Romans 11:33-36, the penultimate line of which takes on added significance in a universalist context:
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
Or who has given a gift to him
to receive a gift in return?
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever. Amen."
I believe the sum of Rom. 11:32 & Rom. 11:36a is greater than the parts.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 19, 2018, 05:21:00 PM
Yeah looks like it:
"The Aramaic New Testament of the Bible exists in two versions:
(1) the classical Aramaic, or Syriac, New Testament, part of the Pecrapta, translated from the Greek originals in the early centuries of the church.
(2) the Assyrian Modern Version New Testament and Psalms, published by the Bible Society in Lebanon (1997) and newly translated from Koine Greek. This version is mainly in use among Protestants."
Quote from: CST on April 19, 2018, 03:16:31 PM
I don'y think we have any actual Aramaic texts of the New Testament.
Whoops, that's I typo I wasn't trying to go Scottish.
Actually, for the purposes of disclosure I'm starting to think that ET proponents may be slightly more correct about this verse than we are (as correct as they can be given they have a wrong theology). I still think it describes UR because you are is true, I just realize on reflection there are probably several better verses.
The reason for this is that there's a feeling I get when reading this which interprets it as God has consigned all too disobedience so He can rescue all from disobedience, which is clearly nonsense (which many ET proponents lean to whether they believe it or not), we are responsible for our own disobedience.
The reason for this is that it's hard not to read the first clause as active even though it isn't, so 'God has caused us to be disobedient so He can be merciful to all of us, because the value of mercy means it worth receiving somehow.
But no, it's more likely that what it actually means is that God allows us all to be disobedient instead of rescuing all or some of us from it directly, which He could do despite what freewill advocates claim, so that we don't end us a society comprising of people who can claim to have saved themselves and people who needed God's mercy, none shall boast of themselves, as Paul reminds us earlier in the passage, 'do not boast over the branches. If you do boast, remember it is not you that support the root, but the root that supports you.' (Rom. 11:18). Taken in context it's a lot harder to read term as a UR passage, what of the branches that a 'cut off as written it doesn't sound like they receive mercy or are saved. But again other passages there do sound like UR passages (11:15). So it flits between condemnation and mercy almost as swiftly as the verses change, no wonder it's confusing. It has to support UR because UR are is true, but it doesn't seem to exclude the possibility of some branches never been grafted in (as also suggested elsewhere) which is why ET and ED proponents think the passage supports them even if verse 32 might suggest otherwise.
CST,
The problem for eternalists is that in order to interpret the branches-being-cut-off-that-Gentiles-might-be-grafted-in section as supportive of eternal torment, they have to read into the passage the idea that the cutting off lasts for ever. And that there is no warrant for doing.
So, I'm quite happy to plant my Universalist flag on Romans 11:32 and defend it against all comers! :)
Shalom,
Daniel
Quote from: tm55 on April 20, 2018, 05:39:45 AM
Welcome restlesshope91!
You may be interested in the following quote from http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-bible-derose.html:
"11. Conclusion.
If I'm right that Romans 11:32 is a universalist passage, it's the thought of universalism that inspires what directly follows that verse -- Paul's wonderful doxology of Romans 11:33-36, the penultimate line of which takes on added significance in a universalist context:
O the depth of the riches and wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable are his judgments and how inscrutable his ways!
For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?
Or who has given a gift to him
to receive a gift in return?
For from him and through him and to him are all things.
To him be the glory forever. Amen."
I believe the sum of Rom. 11:32 & Rom. 11:36a is greater than the parts.
Amen!! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
And also, [in case we didn't catch on to that - witness of two (proofs)]
32 For God has committed them all to disobedience, that He [eleese] = [might-have-mercy] on all. Pasted from GodIsLove's post above - "eleese" - an aorist subjunctive tense - an action without history or continuation. A "pure form". A definite outcome --> have mercy on all; that will happen as a result of another stated action --> has committed them all to disobedience
[therefor!]
33 Oh, the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! How unsearchable are His judgments and His ways past finding out!
34 "
For who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has become His counselor?"
35 "Or who has first given to Him
And it shall be repaid to him?"
36
For of Him and through Him and to Him are all things, to whom be glory forever. Amen. :banana: :dsunny:
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 20, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
CST,
The problem for eternalists is that in order to interpret the branches-being-cut-off-that-Gentiles-might-be-grafted-in section as supportive of eternal torment, they have to read into the passage the idea that the cutting off lasts for ever. And that there is no warrant for doing.
So, I'm quite happy to plant my Universalist flag on Romans 11:32 and defend it against all comers! :)
Shalom,
Daniel
The warrant would seem to a literal interpretation of the allegorical sentiment that what doesn't bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. Plant matter doesn't do well in fire and thus the idea does not imply a possible reversing of the situation later in the future.
Quote from: CST on April 21, 2018, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 20, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
CST,
The problem for eternalists is that in order to interpret the branches-being-cut-off-that-Gentiles-might-be-grafted-in section as supportive of eternal torment, they have to read into the passage the idea that the cutting off lasts for ever. And that there is no warrant for doing.
So, I'm quite happy to plant my Universalist flag on Romans 11:32 and defend it against all comers! :)
Shalom,
Daniel
The warrant would seem to a literal interpretation of the allegorical sentiment that what doesn't bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. Plant matter doesn't do well in fire and thus the idea does not imply a possible reversing of the situation later in the future.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what Scripture says in the passage about Elijah—how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"[a]? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it cannot be based on works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace.
7 What then? What the people of Israel sought so earnestly they did not obtain. The elect among them did, but the others were hardened, 8 as it is written:
"God gave them a spirit of stupor,
eyes that could not see
and ears that could not hear,
to this very day."[c]
9 And David says:
"May their table become a snare and a trap,
a stumbling block and a retribution for them.
10 May their eyes be darkened so they cannot see,
and their backs be bent forever."[d]
Ingrafted Branches
11 Again I ask: Did they stumble so as to fall beyond recovery? Not at all! Rather, because of their transgression, salvation has come to the Gentiles to make Israel envious. 12 But if their transgression means riches for the world, and their loss means riches for the Gentiles, how much greater riches will their full inclusion bring!
13 I am talking to you Gentiles. Inasmuch as I am the apostle to the Gentiles, I take pride in my ministry 14 in the hope that I may somehow arouse my own people to envy and save some of them. 15 For if their rejection brought reconciliation to the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the part of the dough offered as firstfruits is holy, then the whole batch is holy; if the root is holy, so are the branches.
17 If some of the branches have been broken off, and you, though a wild olive shoot, have been grafted in among the others and now share in the nourishing sap from the olive root, 18 do not consider yourself to be superior to those other branches. If you do, consider this: You do not support the root, but the root supports you. 19 You will say then, "Branches were broken off so that I could be grafted in." 20 Granted. But they were broken off because of unbelief, and you stand by faith. Do not be arrogant, but tremble. 21 For if God did not spare the natural branches, he will not spare you either.
22 Consider therefore the kindness and sternness of God: sternness to those who fell, but kindness to you, provided that you continue in his kindness. Otherwise, you also will be cut off. 23 And if they do not persist in unbelief, they will be grafted in, for God is able to graft them in again. 24 After all, if you were cut out of an olive tree that is wild by nature, and contrary to nature were grafted into a cultivated olive tree, how much more readily will these, the natural branches, be grafted into their own olive tree!
All Israel Will Be Saved
25 I do not want you to be ignorant of this mystery, brothers and sisters, so that you may not be conceited: Israel has experienced a hardening in part until the full number of the Gentiles has come in, 26 and in this way[e] all Israel will be saved. As it is written:
"The deliverer will come from Zion;
he will turn godlessness away from Jacob.
27 And this is[f] my covenant with them
when I take away their sins."[g]
28 As far as the gospel is concerned, they are enemies for your sake; but as far as election is concerned, they are loved on account of the patriarchs, 29 for God's gifts and his call are irrevocable. 30 Just as you who were at one time disobedient to God have now received mercy as a result of their disobedience, 31 so they too have now become disobedient in order that they too may now[h] receive mercy as a result of God's mercy to you. 32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
Doxology
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?"[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
:dsunny:
Amen.. It's amazing to me how overlooked by Et, is the verse and phrase "and so all Israel will be saved".. It certainly much more suggests UR than Et! And in Romans, the "legal" book / book of legality, contract, no less!
...And ends with that beautiful Doxology!
32 For God has bound everyone over to disobedience
so that he may have mercy on them all.
33 Oh, the depth of the riches of the wisdom and knowledge of God!
How unsearchable his judgments,
and his paths beyond tracing out!
34 "Who has known the mind of the Lord?
Or who has been his counselor?"[j]
35 "Who has ever given to God,
that God should repay them?"[k]
36 For from him and through him and for him are all things.
To him be the glory forever! Amen.
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 20, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
CST,
The problem for eternalists is that in order to interpret the branches-being-cut-off-that-Gentiles-might-be-grafted-in section as supportive of eternal torment, they have to read into the passage the idea that the cutting off lasts for ever. And that there is no warrant for doing.
So, I'm quite happy to plant my Universalist flag on Romans 11:32 and defend it against all comers! :)
Shalom,
Daniel
You'll find that you can easily refute the Eternal Torment crowd with a few questions.
1.) Do you believe God is ALL powerful?
2.) Do you believe God can fail?
3.) Do you believe God would commit someone to eternal torment without first trying to persuade them?
4.) Do you believe God can fail to persuade?
5.) Do you believe God desires that none should be lost?
6.) Do you believe God desires to save everyone?
7.) Do you believe Man's desire not to be saved is Greater than God's will to save him?
8.) Do you believe God gets what He desires?
Eternal Torment is just a relocation plan. It does nothing to remove sins from sinners. Moses would have rather had been blotted out of the book of life if God wasn't going to remove the sins of Israel:
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
So great is the abundance of God's salvation which will be testified of all in due time.
Quote from: GodIsLove on April 21, 2018, 04:01:48 PM
Quote from: CST on April 21, 2018, 01:43:55 PM
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 20, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
CST,
The problem for eternalists is that in order to interpret the branches-being-cut-off-that-Gentiles-might-be-grafted-in section as supportive of eternal torment, they have to read into the passage the idea that the cutting off lasts for ever. And that there is no warrant for doing.
So, I'm quite happy to plant my Universalist flag on Romans 11:32 and defend it against all comers! :)
Shalom,
Daniel
The warrant would seem to a literal interpretation of the allegorical sentiment that what doesn't bear good fruit is cut down and thrown in the fire. Plant matter doesn't do well in fire and thus the idea does not imply a possible reversing of the situation later in the future.
And even they, if they do not continue in their unbelief, will be grafted in, for God has the power to graft them in again. 24 For if you were cut from what is by nature a wild olive tree, and grafted, contrary to nature, into a cultivated olive tree, how much more will these, the natural branches, be grafted back into their own olive tree.
Yeah, but my point, which I imagine they use, remains; incinerated plant matter is ash and can't be grafted into anything.
Quote from: trettep on April 21, 2018, 07:52:12 PM
Quote from: restlesshope91 on April 20, 2018, 04:08:15 PM
CST,
The problem for eternalists is that in order to interpret the branches-being-cut-off-that-Gentiles-might-be-grafted-in section as supportive of eternal torment, they have to read into the passage the idea that the cutting off lasts for ever. And that there is no warrant for doing.
So, I'm quite happy to plant my Universalist flag on Romans 11:32 and defend it against all comers! :)
Shalom,
Daniel
You'll find that you can easily refute the Eternal Torment crowd with a few questions.
1.) Do you believe God is ALL powerful?
2.) Do you believe God can fail?
3.) Do you believe God would commit someone to eternal torment without first trying to persuade them?
4.) Do you believe God can fail to persuade?
5.) Do you believe God desires that none should be lost?
6.) Do you believe God desires to save everyone?
7.) Do you believe Man's desire not to be saved is Greater than God's will to save him?
8.) Do you believe God gets what He desires?
Eternal Torment is just a relocation plan. It does nothing to remove sins from sinners. Moses would have rather had been blotted out of the book of life if God wasn't going to remove the sins of Israel:
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
So great is the abundance of God's salvation which will be testified of all in due time.
Here is how I imagine the Eternal Torment crowd answer those questions.
1.) Do you believe God is ALL powerful?
Yes, although some will have the caveat that ALL powerful does not mean He can actually do all we might imagine He can do.
2). Do you believe God can fail?
No, but they will follow that by claiming that the Eternal Torment of incorrigible sinners is a successful defeat of evil not a failure on God's part to save.
3.) Do you believe that God would commit someone to Eternal Torment without first trying to persuade them? (that is technically an incomplete question but we'll let it stand)
No, but -
4). Do you believe God can fail to persuade?
The capacity for free will necessitates the possibility that some people can 'choose' not to be persuaded.
5). Do you believe that God desires that none should be lost?
Yes, but -
6). Do you believe that God desires to save everyone?
Unreasonable, that just a rephrasing of the previous question, I refer you to the previous answer 'Yes, but - '
7). Do you believe Man's desire not to be saved is Greater than God's will to save them?
Man does not desire not to be saved, in fact Man very much desires to be saved, but Man has other desires that conflict with his being saved which most be overcome or abandoned before being saved is possible. Man is generally loath to do this?*
8). Do you believe God gets what He desires?
Free will means that Man desires things are obstacles to his salvation, God cannot finally persuade all Men to abandon destructive desires and thus His desire to save all is thwarted.
That's what ET proponents believe I suspect although I doubt all have given it such thought. We know however that's generally what is believed God desires relationship to all the people He has made (salvation) but some people desire not to have this relationship for various reasons (anger at God for perceived slights, fear they will have to abandon other desires, etc) since God cannot impose this relationship on other people but they must choose to desire it for themselves, it must be possible that God's desire will be thwarted by human chooses that oppose and contradict that desire.
*Much of this sentiment is me, I don't believe humans don't desire salvation given what salvation is, they're just not prepared to do the sorts of things they believe God demands of them to get it. I also believe this is an error and that in the main God's desires are not in conflict with most of people genuine desires. God desires are in conflict with sin while we're prepared to sin to achieve our desires to point where we believe some desires are identical with sin. But our genuine desires we'd surely get without sinning if we could.
Amen, it's surprising to me that the view is (somehow) 'free will' - but I can't see how it's considered free will when most (all before being saved) do not have all the facts.. so any choice made, is not 'free'. I chalk all "strong delusions" up to enchantment! A fancy word for it, how "the 'god' of this world has blinded the minds". A veil.. But all in all, this travail through this vail is what is proving good from evil (which I think is also life from death / perfection from imperfection and true from not true; an all important foundation lesson). And I think it ends up to be a very long lesson. With some chosen to believe during this lifetime, and then also, some to be aware of the whole gospel news during this life time.. And more and more I think during the millennium, believers of all sorts, will be students and teachers.. And so those who have more (as in the parable of the talents) will be given yet more, and those who haven't will lose what they think they have.. As the one who buried the one talent the master gave to them.. but the ones who put their talents to the use receive double what they had put to the usury.. And then, after 1000 years of that, then Judgment 'Day', which increasingly I think will be a second age of intense learning (believers serving as teachers and counselors, called "reigning with Christ")..
Imagine how Jesus said "if you say to this mountain be cast into the sea and if you believe it will happen.. I have to believe, anyone having that sort of potential, really, really needs to fully understand good from evil.. and totally, totally believe it.. breathe it, know it.. With absolutely no doubt. I figure understanding what is life from what is death/nonlife. If "the soul that sins, it shall die" - if all fully know that imperfection is the opposite of life.. i.e. to be imperfect in any tiny way ='s death, annihilation, we should absolutely realize that to go that way is totally futile.. all fully knowing "go not that way" - the way of self interest vs the way of LOVE..
Well.. that was long winded, when all I wanted to say was I believe even the Et gospel is serving His purpose.. A lot of this life I believe is for "contrast". His paradise/perfection as compared to all of history. The utter Glory of truth as compared to the futility and horror of untruth...
I am convinced that anyone whom believes in the torment of most of mankind is still stuck under the law off sin and death also :thumbsup:
Quote
Eternal Torment is just a relocation plan. It does nothing to remove sins from sinners. Moses would have rather had been blotted out of the book of life if God wasn't going to remove the sins of Israel:
Exo 32:32 Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.
So great is the abundance of God's salvation which will be testified of all in due time.
and as
we judge so shall we be judged accordingly , the Word judges what is working in us , life or death
I see in your statement even Moses was seeking death and it was fleeing from him in the above scriptures but not for His sake but the sake of the people the error of sin is what causes death and it comes in many forms ..
Jer 8 Judah's Sin and Punishment
...2"They will spread them out to the sun, the moon and to all the host of heaven, which they have loved and which they have served, and which they have gone after and which they have sought, and which they have worshiped. They will not be gathered or buried; they will be as dung on the face of the ground.
3"And death will be chosen rather than life by all the remnant that remains of this evil family, that remains in all the places to which I have driven them," declares the LORD of hosts.
4"You shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "Do men fall and not get up again?
Does one turn away and not repent?...
Gods hand is stretched out still desiring that those whom reap what they sow in the flesh and its corruption will repent and change their minds and hearts towards God , when you get utterly so sick of evil and all its harm and Beg for Gods mercy on all mankind , that is blood shed of the innocent for the guilty , Forgive them Father they do not know what they are doing .... suffering for evil is the cause of Christ and His cross , if we suffer with Him and die to this world also . "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him." -- 2 Tim 2:11,12. "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." -- 2 Cor. 12:9.
For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. (Isaiah 5:25; 9:12, 17, 21; 10:4) God sent His innocent Son for the guilty , and vengeance is the Lords and He shall repay the guilty for the shedding of innocent blood ...
Revelation 9:6
In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.
Deuteronomy 30:1
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,
Deuteronomy 30:4
"If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.
Job 3:21
Who long for death, but there is none, And dig for it more than for hidden treasures,
Job 3:22
Who rejoice greatly, And exult when they find the grave?
Job 7:15
So that my soul would choose suffocation, Death rather than my pains.
Job 7:16
"I waste away; I will not live forever. Leave me alone, for my days are but a breath.
Jeremiah 6:9
Thus says the LORD of hosts, "They will thoroughly glean as the vine the remnant of Israel; Pass your hand again like a grape gatherer Over the branches."
I believe we put way to much stock in the temporary things of this world especially when it comes to religious mindsets , when our true hope is in the eternal weight and Glory of God yet to be made known .
2 Corinthians 4:16 (ESV)
16
So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self/man
is being renewed day by day. 15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.
16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self/man is wasting away, our inner self/man is being renewed day by day.
17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,
18
as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.
Faith in God and to His glory, none can glory in anything but God Himself :dsunny: the Will of God is that NONE should perish , the inner man is saved , but all the outer man was judged already to weakness and perish in the using ..
Quote from: marie glen on April 23, 2018, 04:17:54 PM
Amen, it's surprising to me that the view is (somehow) 'free will' - but I can't see how it's considered free will when most (all before being saved) do not have all the facts.. so any choice made, is not 'free'. I chalk all "strong delusions" up to enchantment! A fancy word for it, how "the 'god' of this world has blinded the minds". A veil.. But all in all, this travail through this vail is what is proving good from evil (which I think is also life from death / perfection from imperfection and true from not true; an all important foundation lesson). And I think it ends up to be a very long lesson. With some chosen to believe during this lifetime, and then also, some to be aware of the whole gospel news during this life time.. And more and more I think during the millennium, believers of all sorts, will be students and teachers.. And so those who have more (as in the parable of the talents) will be given yet more, and those who haven't will lose what they think they have.. As the one who buried the one talent the master gave to them.. but the ones who put their talents to the use receive double what they had put to the usury.. And then, after 1000 years of that, then Judgment 'Day', which increasingly I think will be a second age of intense learning (believers serving as teachers and counselors, called "reigning with Christ")..
Imagine how Jesus said "if you say to this mountain be cast into the sea and if you believe it will happen.. I have to believe, anyone having that sort of potential, really, really needs to fully understand good from evil.. and totally, totally believe it.. breathe it, know it.. With absolutely no doubt. I figure understanding what is life from what is death/nonlife. If "the soul that sins, it shall die" - if all fully know that imperfection is the opposite of life.. i.e. to be imperfect in any tiny way ='s death, annihilation, we should absolutely realize that to go that way is totally futile.. all fully knowing "go not that way" - the way of self interest vs the way of LOVE..
Well.. that was long winded, when all I wanted to say was I believe even the Et gospel is serving His purpose.. A lot of this life I believe is for "contrast". His paradise/perfection as compared to all of history. The utter Glory of truth as compared to the futility and horror of untruth...
To be honest, thinking on these lines is when the idea that some will not be saved becomes most plausible, not eternal torment, there's nothing plausible about that but to choose a relationship, and this is important, is always a matter of faith, it's not possible to ever have all the facts when you elect to enter a relationship, only God can have this with His knowledge of all things and some even doubt He has that because it doesn't serve the needs of Free Will, which is held to be necessary for moral value.
But I repeat it's never possible to have all the facts and therefore anyone, in the end can choose that, on balance, they just don't trust God and reject what He offers whatever negative consequences entail from that. Obviously, I believe God (presumably combined with experience) can present all the necessary facts to illicit the necessary trust without compromising what is incorrectly called free will.
But I'm surprised to quote the rule of the state of possession. That passage really bothers me those who have only have because God gave those who do not have, lack because either God did not give or they were given and rejected because they lack (were not given) whatever was necessary to recognize they should keep what they were given. Which sounds like Calvinism to me.
And I don't think Jesus really expects anyone to be casting mountains into the see, any who has the faith to do that should also have the wisdom to know not to move God's strategically placed mountains.
But I do agree that the ET argument (not gospel, there's nothing 'good' about it) is serving His purposes, I'm fairly confident that the Bible teaches that everything serves His purposes or he can turn them to do so.