Hey everyone. I guess from my username you can surmise that I am a Mormon. However, that is tentative. You see I have a long story for only being in my early 20s.
I grew up in a Baptist household. My parents were nominally religious however my grandmother was a devout Baptist. She read the Bible everyday, taught me, and brought me to church every Sunday. In middle school I started going to a youth group at a local church. They taught eternal hell, as did my grandmother. So I grew up believing all non-believers would go to hell. However even at an early age this didn't sit well with me. I mean in one breath people would tell me that God was love and He loved all His children, then in the next breath they would condemn 3/4s of the world to hell. Somehow this was "justice."
I kind of drifted for a few years before settling into Catholicism my senior year of high school. I found much to my dismay that they officially taught only Catholics could go to Heaven. No one I knew was Catholic so that meant my whole family. I just couldn't believe that God would send everyone who wasn't part of a denomination to hell. What about people who have never heard of Jesus? What of people who believed in Christ but weren't really all that devout? I mean there are so many different beliefs regarding Christianity what if someone choose the wrong one? This was the cause of a bad mental breakdown for me while I was serving in the military.
For a solid year I drove myself literally crazy worrying that I was going to hell and so was everyone I knew! This caused me to leave religion altogether. It was the cause of depression and insanity and I wanted no part of it anymore. God, if there was one I thought, would never trust His plan of salvation to the craziness of organized religion.
Well a few months ago I felt some inspiration to research mormonism. I found that a lot of their doctrine was reasonable to me. They only vaguely believe in hell and a lot of them don't, which was a big draw for me. However there is a lot of stuff with Mormonism still doesn't sit right with me, for instance the belief that God has a tangible body of flesh among other things. I also now, and likely forever have an inherent distrust of organized religion, I love Jesus Christ I just don't trust "churches". I found this website and a lot of it makes so much sense! I am so glad that there other people out there who believe that one day all men will be reconciled to God. Some may have to face a punishment, but God is merciful and His punishments are corrective.
I look forward to learning more from all of you!
Welcome Johnny.
This quote - "I love Jesus Christ I just don't trust "churches" - is a keeper.
I grew up in multiple "denominations", settling for years in the Baptist one. About 2 years ago God very "forcefully" called me out of denominationalism/organised mainstream institutionalized religion. He has laid on my heart that His PEOPLE are the church (ecclesia, called out ones) and that we are to "live the church" every day - in our hearts, in our lives, as we interact with our family and others. Also, that He doesn't seek a people that show up at a few church services a week and that's the sum and centerpiece of their worship of Him. That He's looking for a people that do, as you say, love Him and live Him minute by minute, day by day, putting Himself on them, clothing themselves with Him - whether in the "big building" or not.
He said "I do not dwell in temples made with hands", and "the kingdom of God is within you".
Peace, joy, and grace to you as you seek HIS face. James.
Welcome!!
:thumbsup: JM1 :goodpost:
Thanks for all the kind responses. It's so...liberating to believe, no know that all men will one day be with God. That is truly the "peace that passeth all understanding." I never found that peace with religion. I have found it with the victorious gospel of Jesus Christ. It was comforting to find that Tentmaker doesn't endorse a "liberal" new age universalism. You know growing up Baptist I was taught that univeralists were not Christian because they believed "all paths lead to God." There is only one way, life, and truth, and that is Jesus Christ. It is only through him that we are made whole. Thank God for the true gospel of Jesus Christ, it is true victory. It's so overwhelming, I want to go shout from the rooftops! I want everyone to know this gospel! It's liberating, and refreshing I wish the whole world could embrace the Truth, I think we could have saved millions, if not billions of lives if people would let go of religion and embrace Jesus Christ.
Absolutely! It's Unitarian Universalism (and New Age type beliefs) that endorse the absolute "all paths" error. TM endorses Biblical, Christ-based ultimate reconciliation - or as you note, Gary Amirault calls it the Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ.
No man comes to the Father but by Jesus, the Savior of the world. As Paul said, every man in his order. :thumbsup:
Hay Johnney, I was Catholic, Baptist, and Mormen, and many on the inbetween.
I personally say Welcome. I'll never leave UR beliefs ever again.
Book mark some of the things found at Tentmaker's home page. like scholars corner, Books, and anything that fits your fancy. If you save it in bookmarks, it is easyer to open more than one window and drag and drop articles from one tab to a post...
Lee Damboise II a recovering religious-is'
Hi johnny, welcome! I really liked your story because I could relate with a lot of it - the worrying for my family and friends who were not believers, my confusion at how my believing friends could preach on God's love and how we should love everyone like Jesus but at the same time endorsed hellfire teaching, my love for Jesus and my distrust of churches, and my questions and confusion over denominations! Something I thought about a LOT. I regularly attend a Baptist church, and I often found myself criticizing the pastors and my friends when they asserted that their view was the "right one". I have a friend now going to a Calvinist, reformed Baptist church and she believes they have the ONE right view on God and His nature - something I find VERY hard to listen to her say. EVERY denomination believes they have the right view - except they can't all be right and nobody wants to question that, they just say "we are the ones who got it right". And when people use personal divine inspiration as a reason for their belief, well... how can you argue that? I agree that relationship with God is deeply personal, so how can I look at another Christian and tell them, "no, what you believe is not from God"? I am not that person, I don't KNOW what God has told them. I also doubt myself a lot, heh.. :)
It's tricky because every denomination can find scriptures that back up their belief. The Bible isn't black and white, which is annoying sometimes... lol :)
Anyway johnny, I'm glad you've found tentmaker and that God is teaching you things. I loved what you said - "we could have saved millions, if not billion of lives if people would let go of religion and embrace Jesus Christ".
Welcome Brother!!!
Hi Johnny,
Welcome to TM. I don't know that I would be considered a "regular" here, but I pop in from time to time and saw your name. Was curious about the "mormon" part so looked to see if you introduced yourself as a Mormon.
You say that your conversion to Mormonism was "recent"? Yet you also seem to indicate that you are coming (or have already?) to believe in UR? Have you left the Mormon church or are you still a member, but investigating other things?
(Just curious, as an ex-Mormon. :happygrin:)
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:21:55 AM
Hi Johnny,
Welcome to TM. I don't know that I would be considered a "regular" here, but I pop in from time to time and saw your name. Was curious about the "mormon" part so looked to see if you introduced yourself as a Mormon.
You say that your conversion to Mormonism was "recent"? Yet you also seem to indicate that you are coming (or have already?) to believe in UR? Have you left the Mormon church or are you still a member, but investigating other things?
(Just curious, as an ex-Mormon. :happygrin:)
Yes, my conversion was recent, about a month ago. You see I was kind of in a spiritual no man's land. I didn't believe anything. I wasn't an atheist really, or a deist, I was just sort of apathetic. I desired to come back to Jesus Christ, but I remembered the hurt and the pain I suffered (emotionally and mentally) while I was part of the "mainstream" of Christianity so I decided perhaps to look elsewhere. I discovered Mormonism and some of it made a lot of sense to me. I was just so happy to be talking about Jesus Christ and surrounded by people who believed in Him that I made the leap of conversion without really thinking about it.
However, that being said much of Mormonism, that I didn't bother to look up while I was contemplating conversion, bugged me. Mandatory 10% tithes for instance, God having a physical body, amongst other things just didn't sit right with me. Also, the claim that Joseph Smith saw God didn't seem to add up, I had remembered reading in the Bible that no man has seen the face of God. However, the people at the church were nice and they seemed to believe in a Universal-ish Salvation, and that was important to me. The doctrine of hell caused me tons and tons of grief and agony growing up, and I would never believe in that wretched doctrine again. Then I discovered Tentmaker.org (though I do remember having poked around on it a year or two ago but just vaguely) and began reading. I also discovered bible-truths.com and between the two websites I was convinced that hell did not exist. I created my username with the idea that I still may consider myself a Mormon, but I cannot. I believe the Lord lead me to these websites. I just cannot in good conscience continue to affiliate myself with the LDS church. I have stated that I love Jesus Christ but I do not like organized religion. I tried to convince myself that the LDS church was different, but in the end it's not. I do not trust churches that hold tithes over the heads of their followers and threaten God's curses if you do not pay them.
Sorry, I know this isn't the proper forum for all of that, but I was asked a question and wanted to give a full answer to explain my position. So my position is this, I love Jesus Christ, I believe in God and trust Him, I put my faith in Him, and no one else. I do not affiliate with any specific denomination or church.
Quote from: johnnymormon12 on January 15, 2010, 03:48:49 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:21:55 AM
Hi Johnny,
Welcome to TM. I don't know that I would be considered a "regular" here, but I pop in from time to time and saw your name. Was curious about the "mormon" part so looked to see if you introduced yourself as a Mormon.
You say that your conversion to Mormonism was "recent"? Yet you also seem to indicate that you are coming (or have already?) to believe in UR? Have you left the Mormon church or are you still a member, but investigating other things?
(Just curious, as an ex-Mormon. :happygrin:)
Yes, my conversion was recent, about a month ago. You see I was kind of in a spiritual no man's land. I didn't believe anything. I wasn't an atheist really, or a deist, I was just sort of apathetic. I desired to come back to Jesus Christ, but I remembered the hurt and the pain I suffered (emotionally and mentally) while I was part of the "mainstream" of Christianity so I decided perhaps to look elsewhere. I discovered Mormonism and some of it made a lot of sense to me. I was just so happy to be talking about Jesus Christ and surrounded by people who believed in Him that I made the leap of conversion without really thinking about it.
However, that being said much of Mormonism, that I didn't bother to look up while I was contemplating conversion, bugged me. Mandatory 10% tithes for instance, God having a physical body, amongst other things just didn't sit right with me. Also, the claim that Joseph Smith saw God didn't seem to add up, I had remembered reading in the Bible that no man has seen the face of God. However, the people at the church were nice and they seemed to believe in a Universal-ish Salvation, and that was important to me. The doctrine of hell caused me tons and tons of grief and agony growing up, and I would never believe in that wretched doctrine again. Then I discovered Tentmaker.org (though I do remember having poked around on it a year or two ago but just vaguely) and began reading. I also discovered bible-truths.com and between the two websites I was convinced that hell did not exist. I created my username with the idea that I still may consider myself a Mormon, but I cannot. I believe the Lord lead me to these websites. I just cannot in good conscience continue to affiliate myself with the LDS church. I have stated that I love Jesus Christ but I do not like organized religion. I tried to convince myself that the LDS church was different, but in the end it's not. I do not trust churches that hold tithes over the heads of their followers and threaten God's curses if you do not pay them.
Sorry, I know this isn't the proper forum for all of that, but I was asked a question and wanted to give a full answer to explain my position. So my position is this, I love Jesus Christ, I believe in God and trust Him, I put my faith in Him, and no one else. I do not affiliate with any specific denomination or church.
Cool! My Intent was not to start a discussion on Mormonism; was just curious because of what you said. My first exposure to Universalism was through Bible-truths as well (though I had already left the LDS church... and I've since been banned from BT :mblush:).
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 04:06:30 AM
Quote from: johnnymormon12 on January 15, 2010, 03:48:49 AM
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 03:21:55 AM
Hi Johnny,
Welcome to TM. I don't know that I would be considered a "regular" here, but I pop in from time to time and saw your name. Was curious about the "mormon" part so looked to see if you introduced yourself as a Mormon.
You say that your conversion to Mormonism was "recent"? Yet you also seem to indicate that you are coming (or have already?) to believe in UR? Have you left the Mormon church or are you still a member, but investigating other things?
(Just curious, as an ex-Mormon. :happygrin:)
Yes, my conversion was recent, about a month ago. You see I was kind of in a spiritual no man's land. I didn't believe anything. I wasn't an atheist really, or a deist, I was just sort of apathetic. I desired to come back to Jesus Christ, but I remembered the hurt and the pain I suffered (emotionally and mentally) while I was part of the "mainstream" of Christianity so I decided perhaps to look elsewhere. I discovered Mormonism and some of it made a lot of sense to me. I was just so happy to be talking about Jesus Christ and surrounded by people who believed in Him that I made the leap of conversion without really thinking about it.
However, that being said much of Mormonism, that I didn't bother to look up while I was contemplating conversion, bugged me. Mandatory 10% tithes for instance, God having a physical body, amongst other things just didn't sit right with me. Also, the claim that Joseph Smith saw God didn't seem to add up, I had remembered reading in the Bible that no man has seen the face of God. However, the people at the church were nice and they seemed to believe in a Universal-ish Salvation, and that was important to me. The doctrine of hell caused me tons and tons of grief and agony growing up, and I would never believe in that wretched doctrine again. Then I discovered Tentmaker.org (though I do remember having poked around on it a year or two ago but just vaguely) and began reading. I also discovered bible-truths.com and between the two websites I was convinced that hell did not exist. I created my username with the idea that I still may consider myself a Mormon, but I cannot. I believe the Lord lead me to these websites. I just cannot in good conscience continue to affiliate myself with the LDS church. I have stated that I love Jesus Christ but I do not like organized religion. I tried to convince myself that the LDS church was different, but in the end it's not. I do not trust churches that hold tithes over the heads of their followers and threaten God's curses if you do not pay them.
Sorry, I know this isn't the proper forum for all of that, but I was asked a question and wanted to give a full answer to explain my position. So my position is this, I love Jesus Christ, I believe in God and trust Him, I put my faith in Him, and no one else. I do not affiliate with any specific denomination or church.
Cool! My Intent was not to start a discussion on Mormonism; was just curious because of what you said. My first exposure to Universalism was through Bible-truths as well (though I had already left the LDS church... and I've since been banned from BT :mblush:).
What, if I may ask, got you banned from BT?
Religious systems are imagined things in people's minds. Something like idols, they are dead in themselves...psychological constructs with which people have intimate relations in ways they are only to be related to God and each other. Mystical Babylon is, "With whom the kings of the earth have committed fornication..." (Rv 17:2, AV)
Quote from: johnnymormon12 on January 15, 2010, 05:50:43 AM
What, if I may ask, got you banned from BT?
It started when I began asking questions about "the first resurrection" (because it finally came to my attention that Christ said that the tares would be harvested first) and the difference between "the earnest of the spirit" and "the adoption of sons", but the last straw (I guess) was when I asked a moderator (IN PRIVATE) why they weren't allowing anyone to discuss the issues concerning the 'breakup' of Ray and Mike Vinson.
But then I was eventually banned from Mik's group, as well, over the first issue above, which was carried over into his group even after I was banned from BT. Though that was also a PRIVATE conversation and not something that took place within the group as a whole.
They don't like being questioned by a woman, I was accused of trying to "teach" and of trying to "usurp the authority of a man". :sigh:
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 08:06:35 PM
Quote from: johnnymormon12 on January 15, 2010, 05:50:43 AM
What, if I may ask, got you banned from BT?
It started when I began asking questions about "the first resurrection" (because it finally came to my attention that Christ said that the tares would be harvested first) and the difference between "the earnest of the spirit" and "the adoption of sons", but the last straw (I guess) was when I asked a moderator (IN PRIVATE) why they weren't allowing anyone to discuss the issues concerning the 'breakup' of Ray and Mike Vinson.
But then I was eventually banned from Mik's group, as well, over the first issue above, which was carried over into his group even after I was banned from BT. Though that was also a PRIVATE conversation and not something that took place within the group as a whole.
They don't like being questioned by a woman, I was accused of trying to "teach" and of trying to "usurp the authority of a man". :sigh:
In a bit of fairness and hopefully not making an offensive comment to you. Bible Truths forum makes it clear that it is for the purpose of discussing what a person learns from Rays teachings. Ray is the teacher and no one else (there), that is why the Mods almost always copy and paste rays teachings in responce to a question.
My understanding about Mike is that Ray come to a conclusion that some of Mikes teachings were unscriptural and had his articles removed from his website.
I think since then Mike came to agree Ray was right for the most part (do not know any specifics) but decided it was best to remain apart as separate teachers. I think I saw one of Rays e-mails where he did regret the argument him and Mike got in over it. You will rarely see Ray say anything like that, so it must of been a doosey.
I left on my own accord because it was fruitless to be in the forum if we were just going to write messages copy and pasting rays material, I mean, really.
Most posts there are people wanting clarification of rays articles or people coming up with creative ways to say what ray says.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on January 15, 2010, 08:33:19 PM
In a bit of fairness and hopefully not making an offensive comment to you. Bible Truths forum makes it clear that it is for the purpose of discussing what a person learns from Rays teachings. Ray is the teacher and no one else (there), that is why the Mods almost always copy and paste rays teachings in responce to a question.
Perhaps we should move this to another thread (if it's even allowed to be discussed here), but I wasn't trying to be "unfair" by giving the reason that I was banned. It is the reason. I didn't feel I needed to dig into the details to answer the question.
(1) I was not trying to teach, I was simply asking questions and participating in conversations that were not even started by me and that were also being participated in my moderators of the forum, as well.
(2) Discussing various views - whether in agreement with Ray or not - doesn't constitute "teaching" nor does it mean that someone is in "disagreement" with Ray on every issue. Do all at the BT forum agree with Ray on every issue? Do they even understand "all" the things that Ray teaches?
(2) When the board was first started (not speaking of the Yahoo group that existed before that) there was a section created for the express purposed of questioning Ray's teachings. At that time I was one of the ones who was versed well enough in what Ray taught to address those who came in to disagree. That was perfectly acceptable. What changed is that I began to have a FEW questions of my own. And as A WELL ESTABLISHED member of the group I did not see it as an affront to Ray or anyone else to ASK QUESTIONS. I even asked them TO RAY and posted the answers that RAY provided back to me on the forum.
QuoteMy understanding about Mike is that Ray come to a conclusion that some of Mikes teachings were unscriptural and had his articles removed from his website.
True! And a very close friendship was throne in the garbage (by both men), though from what I read they weren't that far apart on the issue. They were simply speaking PAST each other by 'the words' that they were each using.
QuoteI think since then Mike came to agree Ray was right for the most part (do not know any specifics) but decided it was best to remain apart as separate teachers. I think I saw one of Rays e-mails where he did regret the argument him and Mike got in over it. You will rarely see Ray say anything like that, so it must of been a doosey.
I don't read Ray's or Mike's stuff anymore, so I would not know. But I agree with you when you say that "you rarely see Ray say anything like that". Ray is usually quite hateful and arrogant when it comes to those who disagree with him. He was, even to me, when I wrote to him AND I AGREED WITH HIM (in ALL things, at one time) and was a very active member of the forum.
QuoteI left on my own accord because it was fruitless to be in the forum if we were just going to write messages copy and pasting rays material, I mean, really.
Exactly! And it was about that time that I was banned. Had I not been I would have left on my own. In fact, I did delete my own account and then changed my mind figuring that I would keep an account there just in case I wanted to just drop in from time to time. They ALLOWED ME to create a new account (it was also then that you had to have your account "approved" by answering a list of questions; you couldn't just create an account and be a member anymore) AND THEN THEY BANNED THE ACCOUNT. :laughing7:
QuoteMost posts there are people wanting clarification of rays articles or people coming up with creative ways to say what ray says.
That may be the case now, but it was not always. And just who do they expect to answer those questions when they treat most people there as "babes" and put Ray on such a high pedestal?
I understand that Ray is quite ill; what will all of those people do if something happens to Ray? Will they simply be "lost" without Ray? Will they close the forum or will they just keep posting Ray's old articles in answer to any questions that come up with no one left to ask?
BTW, it wasn't the asking of the questions that got be banned from BT; those questions did start there, but were carried over into Mike's group after I was already banned from BT.
Though the fact that I was beginning to question some of the things Ray taught might have factored into the decision, the reason that I was given for being banned from BT was "for causing strife and division with other member through PM's".
Funny think is that I didn't PM anyone. I exchanges a few emails with a moderator who I thought was a friend, only asking "why" they weren't allowing the situation to be discussed openly since it impacted ALL of the members of the forum and was causing such a great divide between them, especially when no one even knew what the details were because it wasn't allowed to be discussed. And besides the fact that I considered this person A FRIEND (and had exchanged personal emails with him MANY times to discuss the scripture and so thought he thought of me the same way), we were TOLD on the forum to CONTACT THE MODERATORS if we had a problem with it. That is what I did; and I contracted the one who I thought was A FRIEND, and I did so AS A FRIEND, not as a complaining member. But it was not received that way.
Eventually private emails began to circulate from both Ray's group and Mike's. And all it did was force people to have to take sides. And those who didn't (me) were treated like crap by some of those who did.
But I'd rather just drop it here. We can take it to another thread (if allowed - which is why I chose not to say 'too much' to begin with, but just to answer the question asked with as little details as possible) or to PM if you want.
Quote from: Chris on January 15, 2010, 09:34:33 PM
But I'd rather just drop it here. We can take it to another thread (if allowed - which is why I chose not to say 'too much' to begin with, but just to answer the question asked with as little details as possible) or to PM if you want.
Ok with me, I just posted my thoughts, I had no intention of discussing it in depth.
I also deleted my account at BT it was way to cliquish for me.
:cloud9: :welcome: :newb: :Peace: