New here...feeling pretty alone

[sunshine_in_ok]

Hi, my name is Nicky.  My story is pretty long; but, the summation is that I was raised Lutheran (my grandpa was a pastor), recently Baptist and then my church started something called One Thing You Can't Do In Heaven for a Bible study which was the straw that broke the camel's back of my insanity.  I nearly had a nervous breakdown and could not even say the word hell without literally getting physically ill and vomiting.  About 2 weeks ago I pretty much hit a wall where I had two choices (in my mind): 1) keep believing in hell and check myself into a mental institution; or, 2) throw out everything I've ever thought I knew about "religion" and try to forget it all.

I tried to get help; I talked to three different pastors.  One told me God hates sinners and questioned whether I was even saved or not and told me that Jonathan Edwards gave the greatest sermon ever (which I later looked up, and wish I could erase from my mind).  Another told me if hell wasn't eternal fiery torture then what was the point of making a decision for Jesus and I just needed to pray more and share the Gospel more.  And the third basically told me that not believing in hell was un-scripteral and I need to let God worry about those kinds of things.   :sigh: 

Then God somehow (I don't even remember how) got me to the Tentmaker site.  I've never seen anything like this before.  Honestly after 31 years of "inerrant Bible doctrine" being beat into my head, I'm having a really hard time receiving this all.  My heart wants to believe it, but my head keeps trying to say it's the easy way out.   :mshrug:  I hate how conflicted I feel right now.  I feel like everything I ever thought I knew is wrong and I just feel really lost.

I'm currently in college, and my major is a BS in Christian Ministry.  I believed that God put me in the school I'm in, with the major I'm studying for a reason...now I just don't know.  I didn't ever have intentions of being a minister or pastor, I just wanted to help people know the love that I felt in my heart for Jesus.  Now I feel like I've somehow betrayed God...like I'm doing something very wrong.  I have a wonderful husband of 11 years and a 2 year old daughter who has been such a blessing, and the cornerstone for the destruction of my former beliefs....seeing her, I cannot understand the hatred it would take to ever hurt a child, or another person for that matter in the way that we are made to believe God would.

So that was the short version... :Yeahright:

So anyhow, here I am.  Hoping to find some real hope, and maybe some of that peace and joy that I thought was supposed to come with the package I was sold.  I look forward to getting to know everyone here and learning and growing.

:HeartThrob:  Nicky  :NewB1:

[Lefein]

Heavenly Father, you who shall be all in all, you who are my father, and Nicky's father, and her child's Heavenly father, and her husband's father also.  I lift up this family, and especially this conflicted daughter of yours that you, The Prince of Peace, who gives us your peace which surpasses all understanding would for your glory, and for the celebration of the angels in Heaven, and the saints on Earth - that you would give her abundantly your rest, and your peace, and your loving, kind, gentle care.  Guide her in your soft wisdom, your Spirit is like a wind, and the tempest has raged in her for much too long, her wrestling must be met with your blessing - Mighty Lord - I ask that your pneuma, your wind of Spirit would blow soft upon her, refreshing her, like a warm spring breeze that caresses the flowers to open into their dewy blossoms bearing the richer glory in their clothes than Solomon himself...

Give her rest, and peace, and tranquil understanding as you guide her by the hand through the knowing of yourself.

Beautiful Father, you have guided me, and many others by your hand, and I ask dear Lord as a blood bought son, adopted into the courts of the Most High - in the name of Jesus that you would do this for her, for me, and for your glory most of all, and for the honour of your name which is Love.

Give her the grace, and the strength, and heal the scars on her soul, and the wounds in her mind, and her tender heart that the doctrine of Hell, an evil straight out of the very pit of its non-existent self, a blasphemy against your character, purpose, and noble wisdom - that this terrible tradition has without right; harmed your very own child.

I ask Father, that you would see her healing be done, and most of all Father, I ask that you would be with her always, through the tough battles, and through the victories that she shall surely have.

Give her Victory!  And let your magnificent Love shine with Truth!

In Jesus' name, the Saviour of all mankind!  Amen.

Nicky, remember always that God's purposes bring peace, his will is his yoke, and his yoke is light.  The yoke of Christ is a peaceful burden, and it brings peace.  Go with peace...because God is the prince of peace.  If your soul, and your spirit, and your being is so violently reacting to this doctrine...Then surely it is not from God, who does not send the Spirit of Fear to dwell in his children, but the Spirit of Peace.

God is Love, and God shall be all in all.  The Originals are inerrant, and accurate, being God breathed.  It is man who are at fault, but God is faithful to preserve The Word, for the Word is Christ, and the Word shall not die, nor be corrupted, nor be tainted.  The Word dwells in you, before it ever dwells on the pages of a book.  Bible or not, it is a book without The Spirit of Truth to reveal truth out of it.  Without the Holy Spirit, the Bible is just letters, and trivia, and a book of interesting accounts...But the Holy Spirit is in you, and he will reveal to you the Truth, especially in the originals.

I suggest a program called ISA2 http://www.scripture4all.org/ to help on your journey.

And indeed you are on a journey, you've stepped out onto the road, and now you're about to be swept up on an adventure with the true God of Love himself.  Casting down strongholds, burying the traditions of men, digging the up old dead bones in your soul that liturgy has entombed, and watching as Jesus himself calls into your heart and says; Lazarus!  Come forth!  And though you are afraid now, as all good adventurers are at first, the experience is the experience of a life time, that lasts as long as Life itself.  And ever growing, and ever peaceful you shall become as the ever wonderful God reveals more, and more to you as he lifts the veil of the stone temple of religion and lets the light of his presence engulf you in spleandour, and revelation.

God is with you, and he has gone before you...So rest...his yoke is light...And the God of Truth will reveal the truth to you soon.

The Gospel is this; God loves you, and Christ died to save the world because of that unconditional Love.

...Not a single bit of it has a thing to do with the Eternal Damnation.  Believe, and Love in Jesus, that is all you need, and that is all he ever asked for.  Never once did he command laws of doctrines to be saved - only to believe, and the rest follows.

Pastors are the sheep of other sheep.  Wild, and without a shepherd to guide them.  But you have been pulled out of the wilderness, and are being guided through it to green, pristine, verdant land.  Where the water is living, and the gentle King is your herder.

And I tell you this, if your heart wants to believe it, and if it brings glory to God, and brings peace to your heart - God is in it.

Don't feel conflicted, don't be of a divided mind.  God will make you whole.  Test all things, and hold on to the good.  Hell is not good...Don't hold on to it, you have no need to.  You can minister the gospel to people out of love, not fear, and get better results than before.  Because God is Love, not fear, and when you share Love with the people, you share God, and people respond to Love, and so they respond to God.  When you share fear...you merely minister misery, and those who follow the trail of misery live in the Hell that they preach.

God does not inflict pain without remedial purpose for the betterment of his creation.  A father does not spank his child forever for just one mistake, that is abuse.  A father might however spank his child to ensure that he learns not to throw vases in the house....but even the worst of children are not spanked forever by a father who is much, much, much bigger than they are.

If we being evil will give our children good gifts, will not our righteous heavenly father give better?  That applies with the gift of chastisement too.

And as for being a pastor, you are a priestess, and a queen in his court, and family.  You are already a pastor in a way. :)

If God has you where you are, then go with God, and enjoy the journey.

Welcome also, and be blessed abundantly by your stay here.  May you grow like a tender plant in the sight of the Lord, just like Christ.  And may you bear magnificent fruit, and especially dwell in the tabernacle of peace.  In his name - Amen.

And don't feel that everything you ever knew is lost.  Think of it as...everything you ever knew has at last been found.  You've always known God, or have known God ever since you've been taught by the church - you just never really got to know him as well as you can now. :)

You found God again, but He never lost you.  He'll give you what you feel you've lost, and double.  That is his way, and his good kindness to do so.  :thumbsup:

[shawn]

Hi Nicky.  I'm very glad you have found this place.  I remember the pain of the eternal torment doctrine...it is still fresh in my head.  My spirit has rejected it since I was very young but felt forced to believe it.  I also came to a crisis point much like yourself.

I want to state that I believe you can look in your translation of the Bible for truth.  It took those who believe in universal reconciliation to open my eyes enough to look at scripture in new ways.  Reading with new eyes allowed me to realize there is zero scriptural support for the eternal torment doctrine.

I started this journey about a year and a half ago and I am free from the cognitive dissonance that eternal torture doctrine brought me.  Do I believe in UR?  I don't know.  Do I believe in ED (eternal death)?  I do not know.  What I do know is I couldn't find any scriptural evidence that supports God torturing a great portion of his creation forever. 

That has brought me much relief and I pray you find the same.

[jabcat]

Good answers guys.   :2thumbs:

Nikky, thank you for coming here.  Welcome.

Know a few things.  God's original words, every single one, were true and perfect.  Our translations have problems.  Hell is a mistranslation from the Dark Ages when the Roman "church" hijacked Christianity.  God used 5 SPECIFIC words meaning things like the grave, the unseen, holding place, etc., which were all mistranslated "hell".  He has preserved His Words to us, but we need to dig and pray for wisdom and to "see".  He will show us.  You're beginning to be shown.  It may not feel right sometimes, because it goes against our indoctrination.  Stay here.  Stay before Him.  Know that you don't have to believe our Father is an eternal torturer.  Ask Him to show you the rest.

Know that Jesus is the Savior of the world (Jn. 4:42).  Know that all things will be summed up in Jesus.  Know that God will be All in ALL.  Know that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.  That can't be done except IN (accurate translation) the Holy Spirit.  Know He is working ALL things according to the counsel of His will - and that "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God brought me out of the Baptist denomination, by way of the Assembly of God prior to that.  He showed me "hell" is not eternal, and that He will save all men, while I was at one of the lowest points in my life.

My wife, still a Baptist, believes in ultimate reconciliation (UR) now.  She said "I didn't want to believe it at first.  But then I thought, God is love..."

We will be held accountable for our sins, and anything not of God will be spiritually burned out of us.  But Jesus only used the phrase aonian kolasis, which means temporary correction. 

God IS love, and He is your Father.  Can you imagine your Father torturing most of His creation for billions of years, while the gentle Lamb of God looks on?  It won't happen.  Whatever you're able to see, feel, and believe right now, know this;  there's more to the story!  And it's Good News!

Blessings, James. 

[lomarah]

Hi Nicky. Your story sounds a lot like mine, especially how your daughter turned your beliefs upside down. This is one place you won't feel alone.  :HeartThrob: The guys have already given you great advice so i'll just say welcome!  :dsunny:

[Paul Hazelwood]

I have went down a similar path, although the hell doctrine has not affected me the same, but it was other things within organized religion that made me batty.   While some might disagree,  when you get to that point you have to throw it all out, rid your mind of the chaos and start from scratch making yourself empty so that God can teach you what YOU need to see.   

You, based on your thread title,  feel alone not becauase you have done something wrong or made a mistake, you feel alone because you have emptied out that which you clung to for so many years that kept you cloaked in darkness.   That emptiness is not dispare it is not evil, it means you are ready to be filled with truth.   That feeling will pass, you will see.

[Cardinal]

 :cloud9: Hi and welcome to the board. I know it's hard to believe right now, but it gets easier. Keep pressing in, and enjoy your stay here with other believers who have found the truth. Blessings....

[Beloved Servant]

Another comes to raise the Arc as all pass through Jordan!

[micah7:9]

Happy and glad to have you among the bretheren! :bigGrin:

[willieH]

willieH: Hi Nicky...  :cloud9:  :welcome: to Tentmaker!

Everything happens for a REASON... and you coming here has REASON within it...  Only GOD can show you His truth.  No college or Sunday school teacher or pastor can of themselves teach you.  GOD uses men which are seeking HIM (not self-verifying credentials) to convey TRUTH.

To begin with, you have already indicated that you KNOW the TRUTH in your testimony below, where you state:  "...I cannot understand the hatred it would take to ever hurt a child, or another person for that matter in the way that we are made to believe God would."

That said...  :winkgrin:

Hi, my name is Nicky.  My story is pretty long; but, the summation is that I was raised Lutheran (my grandpa was a pastor), recently Baptist and then my church started something called One Thing You Can't Do In Heaven for a Bible study which was the straw that broke the camel's back of my insanity.  I nearly had a nervous breakdown and could not even say the word hell without literally getting physically ill and vomiting.  About 2 weeks ago I pretty much hit a wall where I had two choices (in my mind): 1) keep believing in hell and check myself into a mental institution; or, 2) throw out everything I've ever thought I knew about "religion" and try to forget it all.

FIRST --- Please know (I have been here 7+ years) that you are NOT the first person to give such a testimony here at Tentmaker... That one would become PHYSICALLY ILL by the proposals of HELL, is certainly a founding manifestation that there is something amiss in its presentation.  For GOD is LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- Love does not seek its own, rather seeks to benefit those whom are LOVED -- 1 Cor 13:5 -- John 3:16-17

SECOND --- Hopefully GOD is working in you to become an empty vessel (in throwing out the FALSE HORRORS of "religion") that you can now be FILLED with TRUTH!   :thumbsup:

I tried to get help; I talked to three different pastors.  One told me God hates sinners and questioned whether I was even saved or not and told me that Jonathan Edwards gave the greatest sermon ever (which I later looked up, and wish I could erase from my mind).

These 3 "pastors" are filled with the TRANSPARENCY of HYPOCRISY.

That ANY "pastor" would suggest that "LOVE" (which GOD IS -- 1 John 4:8)... "HATES"... is ultimately a contradiction in terms.  How can a messenger which claims to be sent of LOVE, ...be bearing a message of HATRED? :rolleye:

Another told me if hell wasn't eternal fiery torture then what was the point of making a decision for Jesus and I just needed to pray more and share the Gospel more.  And the third basically told me that not believing in hell was un-scripteral and I need to let God worry about those kinds of things.   :sigh:

Hmmm... you have already shown yourself to KNOW MORE than this man... In observing your own little daughter... your LOVE, knows instinctively that this man's advice is a lot of HOOEY without foundation.

"A decision for JESUS" is an UNBIBLICAL premise and a FALSE teaching of RELIGION. 

No one "decides of him/herself" to come to JESUS... That is the WORK of GOD, which is SPECIFIED in the WORD -- John 6:44

Sinners do not "save themselves" by "making a ...decision"!   :mshock:

No human being is even ABLE to come, unless GOD drags them to His Son... and then it is the SON which reveals the Father -- Matt 11:27 -- no "decision" made by the sinner is able to produce this revelation.

The WORK of the HOLY, is done by the HOLY, ...not the UNHOLY! -- Rom 5:8 --  WHILE we were YET SINNERS, CHRIST died for us --- the UNGODLY.  (ALL are "ungodly")

Then God somehow (I don't even remember how) got me to the Tentmaker site.  I've never seen anything like this before.  Honestly after 31 years of "inerrant Bible doctrine" being beat into my head, I'm having a really hard time receiving this all.

Well new sister... it took 31 years to "beat fallacy into your head"... so, if you are willing, please give place to a bit of time and study to remove it...  We believe in the message of PEACE here... there is obviously NO PEACE in the teaching of HELL...

My heart wants to believe it, but my head keeps trying to say it's the easy way out.   :mshrug:  I hate how conflicted I feel right now.  I feel like everything I ever thought I knew is wrong and I just feel really lost.

Actually, the HEART is that which is subject to GOD... the "head" is the part that has stumbled in its journey, dragging the HEART with it, through the FIRES of religion...

As I just said... take your time... REASON shall appear where TRUTH is taught.

To propose GOD as a CREATOR and a DESTROYER is proposing Him to be a "house divided"...  Why would He SO LOVE the WORLD (with an UNCHANGING LOVE)... when it did nothing but SIN? 

GOD brought us all forth into THIS LIFE, fully knowing EVERYTHING we would do.  And then as RELIGION would propose, BLAME us for doing what HE KNEW we would do, by torturing us FOREVER?  That, dear sister is the teaching of HORROR, not PEACE... of DEMENTED agenda, certainly NOT, ...LOVE... :mnah:

In your observation of your daughter... You KNEW before she was born that she would poop in her diaper.  And when she actually DID... would you therefore GET ANGRY that she DID this unpleasant thing which YOU KNEW she would do?

Of course not.  REASON and LOVE, prompt you to TEND to her NEED, not torture her for doing what you knew she would do... for she KNEW NOT what she did -- eh? -- Luke 23:34

I'm currently in college, and my major is a BS in Christian Ministry.  I believed that God put me in the school I'm in, with the major I'm studying for a reason...now I just don't know.  I didn't ever have intentions of being a minister or pastor, I just wanted to help people know the love that I felt in my heart for Jesus.  Now I feel like I've somehow betrayed God...like I'm doing something very wrong.  I have a wonderful husband of 11 years and a 2 year old daughter who has been such a blessing, and the cornerstone for the destruction of my former beliefs....seeing her, I cannot understand the hatred it would take to ever hurt a child, or another person for that matter in the way that we are made to believe God would.

I can almost tell you of a CERTAINTY... that if you study here at Tentmaker... the WORD, as it shall appear in discussion and sharing here,  ...that what you hear and share here,k will DEFINITELY be in OPPOSITION to MOST, if not ALL that your "Bible college" shall teach you... so be aware of this... and be strengthened by our Father in His TRUTH...

For, should be in class and HELL is taught (which it will be taught), you shall either in silence CRINGE at the proposals... or SPEAK up, and be persecuted for voicing your view.

So that was the short version... :Yeahright:

So anyhow, here I am.  Hoping to find some real hope, and maybe some of that peace and joy that I thought was supposed to come with the package I was sold.  I look forward to getting to know everyone here and learning and growing.

:HeartThrob:  Nicky  :NewB1:

May GOD thoroughly bless you as you share here at TM... and as I said... should you remain a Bible college student, ...be prepared for what is sure to come @ the college ---->  :punish:

:Peace: be unto you new sister...

...willieH  :cloud9:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Heavenly Father, you who shall be all in all, you who are my father, and Nicky's father, and her child's Heavenly father, and her husband's father also.  I lift up this family, and especially this conflicted daughter of yours that you, The Prince of Peace, who gives us your peace which surpasses all understanding would for your glory, and for the celebration of the angels in Heaven, and the saints on Earth - that you would give her abundantly your rest, and your peace, and your loving, kind, gentle care.  Guide her in your soft wisdom, your Spirit is like a wind, and the tempest has raged in her for much too long, her wrestling must be met with your blessing - Mighty Lord - I ask that your pneuma, your wind of Spirit would blow soft upon her, refreshing her, like a warm spring breeze that caresses the flowers to open into their dewy blossoms bearing the richer glory in their clothes than Solomon himself...

Give her rest, and peace, and tranquil understanding as you guide her by the hand through the knowing of yourself.

Beautiful Father, you have guided me, and many others by your hand, and I ask dear Lord as a blood bought son, adopted into the courts of the Most High - in the name of Jesus that you would do this for her, for me, and for your glory most of all, and for the honour of your name which is Love.

Give her the grace, and the strength, and heal the scars on her soul, and the wounds in her mind, and her tender heart that the doctrine of Hell, an evil straight out of the very pit of its non-existent self, a blasphemy against your character, purpose, and noble wisdom - that this terrible tradition has without right; harmed your very own child.

I ask Father, that you would see her healing be done, and most of all Father, I ask that you would be with her always, through the tough battles, and through the victories that she shall surely have.

Give her Victory!  And let your magnificent Love shine with Truth!

In Jesus' name, the Saviour of all mankind!  Amen.

I'm fairly speechless.  I have read this several times now.  It brings tears to my eyes; I have never had anyone pray like that, for me, ever.  Thank you so much.   :HeartThrob:

Nicky, remember always that God's purposes bring peace, his will is his yoke, and his yoke is light.  The yoke of Christ is a peaceful burden, and it brings peace.  Go with peace...because God is the prince of peace.  If your soul, and your spirit, and your being is so violently reacting to this doctrine...Then surely it is not from God, who does not send the Spirit of Fear to dwell in his children, but the Spirit of Peace.

I've always heard the saying that Satan is the author of confusion.  I haven't ever look that up scripturally, nor do I even know if or what Satan is.  But it would made sense that God's purpose is peace, since that's basically an opposite of confusion.

God is Love, and God shall be all in all.  The Originals are inerrant, and accurate, being God breathed.  It is man who are at fault, but God is faithful to preserve The Word, for the Word is Christ, and the Word shall not die, nor be corrupted, nor be tainted.  The Word dwells in you, before it ever dwells on the pages of a book.  Bible or not, it is a book without The Spirit of Truth to reveal truth out of it.  Without the Holy Spirit, the Bible is just letters, and trivia, and a book of interesting accounts...But the Holy Spirit is in you, and he will reveal to you the Truth, especially in the originals.

I suggest a program called ISA2 http://www.scripture4all.org/ to help on your journey.

Thank you for the link, I'll definitely check it out.  I've read a lot of the things in the past couple weeks on tentmaker (and other resources) regarding aion and other translation issues.  It was honestly the only thing that gave me a feeling of hope in that dark time.  I've spent so many years listening to advice about how the Bible should be read and what I should believe about God; and, if something didn't feel right in my gut (Holy Spirit) I was basically told I was wrong for even daring to question it.  Subsequently, my "salvation" was questioned and it was determined I must not really have the Spirit in me.  So eventually I felt so crazy that I just stopped questioning.   :wacko2:  The message I got: 

:director: YOU'RE DOING IT WRONG!!   :sigh:

And indeed you are on a journey, you've stepped out onto the road, and now you're about to be swept up on an adventure with the true God of Love himself.  Casting down strongholds, burying the traditions of men, digging the up old dead bones in your soul that liturgy has entombed, and watching as Jesus himself calls into your heart and says; Lazarus!  Come forth!  And though you are afraid now, as all good adventurers are at first, the experience is the experience of a life time, that lasts as long as Life itself.  And ever growing, and ever peaceful you shall become as the ever wonderful God reveals more, and more to you as he lifts the veil of the stone temple of religion and lets the light of his presence engulf you in spleandour, and revelation.

God is with you, and he has gone before you...So rest...his yoke is light...And the God of Truth will reveal the truth to you soon.

This sounds so wonderful...it truly does.  I'm by nature a seeker, I always want the why and how behind the what.  IMO The journey is the best part, if you're just there but you don't know how you got there I think you lose a lot of the lesson.

The Gospel is this; God loves you, and Christ died to save the world because of that unconditional Love.

...Not a single bit of it has a thing to do with the Eternal Damnation.  Believe, and Love in Jesus, that is all you need, and that is all he ever asked for.  Never once did he command laws of doctrines to be saved - only to believe, and the rest follows.
<snip>
You found God again, but He never lost you.  He'll give you what you feel you've lost, and double.  That is his way, and his good kindness to do so.  :thumbsup:

Thank you so much.   :HeartThrob:

Nicky

[Lefein]

You are very welcome Nicky, may Wisdom and Peace be your bread. Amen.  :cloud9:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Hi Nicky.  I'm very glad you have found this place.  I remember the pain of the eternal torment doctrine...it is still fresh in my head.  My spirit has rejected it since I was very young but felt forced to believe it.  I also came to a crisis point much like yourself.

I want to state that I believe you can look in your translation of the Bible for truth.  It took those who believe in universal reconciliation to open my eyes enough to look at scripture in new ways.  Reading with new eyes allowed me to realize there is zero scriptural support for the eternal torment doctrine.

I started this journey about a year and a half ago and I am free from the cognitive dissonance that eternal torture doctrine brought me.  Do I believe in UR?  I don't know.  Do I believe in ED (eternal death)?  I do not know.  What I do know is I couldn't find any scriptural evidence that supports God torturing a great portion of his creation forever. 

That has brought me much relief and I pray you find the same.

Thank you!  I am starting to see just what you are talking about here, with the vast volume of scripture that just doesn't line up with a doctrine of eternal torment.  The more I read the more it feels right...however, there's still that voice in the back of my head that says "we can't understand God and you are trying to make God into someone you can understand."  Also, right now it seems the more I learn the more questions it brings up.  So I read something that feels like it's God speaking to me and it makes so much sense :boogie: , but then another question (or 2 or 3) will pop into my head about something else that now doesn't make sense or feel right either  :mnah:. So it's sort of feeling like 1 step forward, 2 steps back sometimes.  I'm plugging on though, just trying to listen to my Spirit and discern what man is saying.

What is the difference between ED and ET?  I think I understand them to mean eternal death and eternal torment...but what does that actually mean.  What's the difference?

[Lefein]

ED is Annihilation; a man goes to hell to experience "ET" until the amount of sins in his life span are paid for, and then God snuffs him out of existence forever.

I read this example somewhere, and it made sense anyway: ED is alot like when a cat plays with a mouse, torturing it before he finally kills it.

ET (as you know) is perpetual affliction of pain, no annihilation, or end to it - No mercy killing, the cat just tortures the mouse forever and never gets bored enough to kill it.

[thinktank]

Hello sunshine, could do with a bit of that,its raining.

You asked whats the difference between Ed and ET

ED means eternal destruction, the soul/spirit or whatver you ascribe too gets eternally destroyed in the lake of fire. There are many viewpoints to this idea, according to the manner and also the time. Some say we only have this life to make a decision and then if not decided, they perish, while others believe that all sould will have a clear opportunity to choose life, while those who wish to reject the light are cut of from God and Eternally destroyed, also other views based around this probably. But there is no torture in ED, simply that the soul is destroyed.

Et means eternal torment, The tradditional teaching in the church, that is begining to collapse as more people get free from its grip of fear and control, the scriptures that  "imply" this doctrine are quite few and the ones that do, truth is being shed upon them as to their true meaning.


edit Ah lefein you beat me to it again  :laughing7:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Good answers guys.   :2thumbs:

Nikky, thank you for coming here.  Welcome.

Know a few things.  God's original words, every single one, were true and perfect.  Our translations have problems.  Hell is a mistranslation from the Dark Ages when the Roman "church" hijacked Christianity.  God used 5 SPECIFIC words meaning things like the grave, the unseen, holding place, etc., which were all mistranslated "hell".  He has preserved His Words to us, but we need to dig and pray for wisdom and to "see".  He will show us.  You're beginning to be shown.  It may not feel right sometimes, because it goes against our indoctrination.  Stay here.  Stay before Him.  Know that you don't have to believe our Father is an eternal torturer.  Ask Him to show you the rest.

Know that Jesus is the Savior of the world (Jn. 4:42).  Know that all things will be summed up in Jesus.  Know that God will be All in ALL.  Know that every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord.  That can't be done except IN (accurate translation) the Holy Spirit.  Know He is working ALL things according to the counsel of His will - and that "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; Who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth." (1 Timothy 2:3-4)

God brought me out of the Baptist denomination, by way of the Assembly of God prior to that.  He showed me "hell" is not eternal, and that He will save all men, while I was at one of the lowest points in my life.

My wife, still a Baptist, believes in ultimate reconciliation (UR) now.  She said "I didn't want to believe it at first.  But then I thought, God is love..."

We will be held accountable for our sins, and anything not of God will be spiritually burned out of us.  But Jesus only used the phrase aonian kolasis, which means temporary correction. 

Thank you James!  The thing you said about the Roman "church" hijacking Christianity is one of the topics I was discussing with one of the Pastor's I was talking with.  He was willing to recognize the Protestant reformation as being a movement against this hijacking, yet was unwilling to believe there could be the slightest possibility that man had tampered with the translation of God's Word.  He said he believed that God protected His Word and I asked him where he would suppose the line was drawn then?  What translations are protected?  This was before I even found out there are translations that don't include eternal torment. 

God IS love, and He is your Father.  Can you imagine your Father torturing most of His creation for billions of years, while the gentle Lamb of God looks on?  It won't happen.  Whatever you're able to see, feel, and believe right now, know this;  there's more to the story!  And it's Good News!

Thank you!!! This really speaks to my heart!

[sunshine_in_ok]

Hi Nicky. Your story sounds a lot like mine, especially how your daughter turned your beliefs upside down. This is one place you won't feel alone.  :HeartThrob: The guys have already given you great advice so i'll just say welcome!  :dsunny:

Thank you!  I am already feeling such a burden of loneliness lifted.  You all really are wonderful.   :girlheart:

[WhiteWings]

Hi  :dsunny: the future bright!
Participate on this forum and you see why (al thos epastors are wrong)

:newb: :welcome: :Urock:

[sunshine_in_ok]

I have went down a similar path, although the hell doctrine has not affected me the same, but it was other things within organized religion that made me batty.   While some might disagree,  when you get to that point you have to throw it all out, rid your mind of the chaos and start from scratch making yourself empty so that God can teach you what YOU need to see.   

You, based on your thread title,  feel alone not becauase you have done something wrong or made a mistake, you feel alone because you have emptied out that which you clung to for so many years that kept you cloaked in darkness.   That emptiness is not dispare it is not evil, it means you are ready to be filled with truth.   That feeling will pass, you will see.

Yes, I think that is a big part of the loneliness I've been feeling.  A part that I didn't even realize!  I do feel lonely in the sense that almost everyone I've tried to speak with about this IRL, has told me that I'm being deceived by Satan and I need to snap out of it and get back on the straight and narrow.  But you're so right in the aspect of having emptied myself of everything, even to the point of going through the process of FEELING God in me as the basis for my belief in Him, not what my head and my learned knowledge told me.  Thank you for your words, I will definitely have to think on this more. 

[sunshine_in_ok]

:cloud9: Hi and welcome to the board. I know it's hard to believe right now, but it gets easier. Keep pressing in, and enjoy your stay here with other believers who have found the truth. Blessings....

Thank you!! 

[sunshine_in_ok]

Another comes to raise the Arc as all pass through Jordan!

:smile:  I'm afraid I don't exactly know what you're saying here, but it sounds nice.  Thank you!  :smile:

[sunshine_in_ok]

Happy and glad to have you among the bretheren! :bigGrin:

Thank you!!  :smile:

[Lefein]

edit Ah lefein you beat me to it again  :laughing7:

Nah, I was just at the right place, at the right time.  :laughing7:

[sunshine_in_ok]

willieH: Hi Nicky...  :cloud9:  :welcome: to Tentmaker!

Everything happens for a REASON... and you coming here has REASON within it...  Only GOD can show you His truth.  No college or Sunday school teacher or pastor can of themselves teach you.  GOD uses men which are seeking HIM (not self-verifying credentials) to convey TRUTH.

To begin with, you have already indicated that you KNOW the TRUTH in your testimony below, where you state:  "...I cannot understand the hatred it would take to ever hurt a child, or another person for that matter in the way that we are made to believe God would."

Thank you for the support.  :HeartThrob: I had gotten SO far away from listening to my Spirit that I'm having a hard time trusting it...too many people telling me Satan is deceiving me for all these years.

That said...  :winkgrin:

Hi, my name is Nicky.  My story is pretty long; but, the summation is that I was raised Lutheran (my grandpa was a pastor), recently Baptist and then my church started something called One Thing You Can't Do In Heaven for a Bible study which was the straw that broke the camel's back of my insanity.  I nearly had a nervous breakdown and could not even say the word hell without literally getting physically ill and vomiting.  About 2 weeks ago I pretty much hit a wall where I had two choices (in my mind): 1) keep believing in hell and check myself into a mental institution; or, 2) throw out everything I've ever thought I knew about "religion" and try to forget it all.

FIRST --- Please know (I have been here 7+ years) that you are NOT the first person to give such a testimony here at Tentmaker... That one would become PHYSICALLY ILL by the proposals of HELL, is certainly a founding manifestation that there is something amiss in its presentation.  For GOD is LOVE -- 1 John 4:8 -- Love does not seek its own, rather seeks to benefit those whom are LOVED -- 1 Cor 13:5 -- John 3:16-17

SECOND --- Hopefully GOD is working in you to become an empty vessel (in throwing out the FALSE HORRORS of "religion") that you can now be FILLED with TRUTH!   :thumbsup:

That is so sad that so many others have had the horrible time I have.   :mshock:  I just read about Andrea Yates the other day...that really broke my heart.  Such pain and heartache.  I am looking forward to being filled with the Truth...although I have to say I am extremely hesitant to call anything truth right now after such a hard fall.

I tried to get help; I talked to three different pastors.  One told me God hates sinners and questioned whether I was even saved or not and told me that Jonathan Edwards gave the greatest sermon ever (which I later looked up, and wish I could erase from my mind).

These 3 "pastors" are filled with the TRANSPARENCY of HYPOCRISY.

That ANY "pastor" would suggest that "LOVE" (which GOD IS -- 1 John 4:8)... "HATES"... is ultimately a contradiction in terms.  How can a messenger which claims to be sent of LOVE, ...be bearing a message of HATRED? :rolleye:

Yeah this was honestly the first time I've had a Pastor say this to me.  I ran across some information on Calvanism somewhere in the past week and he really seems to have a lot of that sort of thinking regarding scripture.  I think my jaw fell on the floor when he said that God hates sinners who don't love Him.  Then when he followed it up with saying "I don't tell a lot of people this because they have a difficult time understanding it; but, God is in Hell too since scripture tells us He is everywhere." It may not have been so bad if it weren't for the smile on his face.  :bsad:

Another told me if hell wasn't eternal fiery torture then what was the point of making a decision for Jesus and I just needed to pray more and share the Gospel more.  And the third basically told me that not believing in hell was un-scripteral and I need to let God worry about those kinds of things.   :sigh:

Hmmm... you have already shown yourself to KNOW MORE than this man... In observing your own little daughter... your LOVE, knows instinctively that this man's advice is a lot of HOOEY without foundation.

"A decision for JESUS" is an UNBIBLICAL premise and a FALSE teaching of RELIGION. 

No one "decides of him/herself" to come to JESUS... That is the WORK of GOD, which is SPECIFIED in the WORD -- John 6:44

Sinners do not "save themselves" by "making a ...decision"!   :mshock:

No human being is even ABLE to come, unless GOD drags them to His Son... and then it is the SON which reveals the Father -- Matt 11:27 -- no "decision" made by the sinner is able to produce this revelation.

The WORK of the HOLY, is done by the HOLY, ...not the UNHOLY! -- Rom 5:8 --  WHILE we were YET SINNERS, CHRIST died for us --- the UNGODLY.  (ALL are "ungodly")

Yeah this all makes so much sense what you're saying here.  These are always things I've wondered in my heart.  Probably at first because the Lutheran doctrine doesn't include "making a decision"  (that I know of anyhow), but the Baptist beliefs do and I was told point blank by the Baptist Pastor that they did not accept anything that I had done while associated with the Lutheran church.   :scratchhead:

Then God somehow (I don't even remember how) got me to the Tentmaker site.  I've never seen anything like this before.  Honestly after 31 years of "inerrant Bible doctrine" being beat into my head, I'm having a really hard time receiving this all.

Well new sister... it took 31 years to "beat fallacy into your head"... so, if you are willing, please give place to a bit of time and study to remove it...  We believe in the message of PEACE here... there is obviously NO PEACE in the teaching of HELL...

I will definitely be sticking around.    :happygrin:

My heart wants to believe it, but my head keeps trying to say it's the easy way out.   :mshrug:  I hate how conflicted I feel right now.  I feel like everything I ever thought I knew is wrong and I just feel really lost.

Actually, the HEART is that which is subject to GOD... the "head" is the part that has stumbled in its journey, dragging the HEART with it, through the FIRES of religion...

As I just said... take your time... REASON shall appear where TRUTH is taught.

To propose GOD as a CREATOR and a DESTROYER is proposing Him to be a "house divided"...  Why would He SO LOVE the WORLD (with an UNCHANGING LOVE)... when it did nothing but SIN? 

GOD brought us all forth into THIS LIFE, fully knowing EVERYTHING we would do.  And then as RELIGION would propose, BLAME us for doing what HE KNEW we would do, by torturing us FOREVER?  That, dear sister is the teaching of HORROR, not PEACE... of DEMENTED agenda, certainly NOT, ...LOVE... :mnah:

In your observation of your daughter... You KNEW before she was born that she would poop in her diaper.  And when she actually DID... would you therefore GET ANGRY that she DID this unpleasant thing which YOU KNEW she would do?

Of course not.  REASON and LOVE, prompt you to TEND to her NEED, not torture her for doing what you knew she would do... for she KNEW NOT what she did -- eh? -- Luke 23:34

That heart and head bit makes so much sense.  It explains why I've been feeling so crazy lately, trying to reconcile the two just has not been working at all. 

Also the fact that God knew what He was bringing us into...you have posted so much here that is speaking to my heart.  One of the things I've really wanted to study lately is the omni qualities of God.  I think this sort of relates to that.

I'm currently in college, and my major is a BS in Christian Ministry.  I believed that God put me in the school I'm in, with the major I'm studying for a reason...now I just don't know.  I didn't ever have intentions of being a minister or pastor, I just wanted to help people know the love that I felt in my heart for Jesus.  Now I feel like I've somehow betrayed God...like I'm doing something very wrong.  I have a wonderful husband of 11 years and a 2 year old daughter who has been such a blessing, and the cornerstone for the destruction of my former beliefs....seeing her, I cannot understand the hatred it would take to ever hurt a child, or another person for that matter in the way that we are made to believe God would.

I can almost tell you of a CERTAINTY... that if you study here at Tentmaker... the WORD, as it shall appear in discussion and sharing here,  ...that what you hear and share here,k will DEFINITELY be in OPPOSITION to MOST, if not ALL that your "Bible college" shall teach you... so be aware of this... and be strengthened by our Father in His TRUTH...

For, should be in class and HELL is taught (which it will be taught), you shall either in silence CRINGE at the proposals... or SPEAK up, and be persecuted for voicing your view.

Yeah, this part is going to be tough.  I honestly feel like I need to stick it out though, to really learn the entire beliefs of the opposing view.  I have always been the kind of person who wants to know every side to things in order to work out where the truth or answer lies.  And really, if going into it I realize it's NOT God and I keep that in my head since it's already in my heart, I think it ultimately will be very beneficial in being able to help others understand God's love.   :HeartThrob:

So that was the short version... :Yeahright:

So anyhow, here I am.  Hoping to find some real hope, and maybe some of that peace and joy that I thought was supposed to come with the package I was sold.  I look forward to getting to know everyone here and learning and growing.

:HeartThrob:  Nicky  :NewB1:

May GOD thoroughly bless you as you share here at TM... and as I said... should you remain a Bible college student, ...be prepared for what is sure to come @ the college ---->  :punish:

:Peace: be unto you new sister...

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank you so much for your encouragement and for your words.  There was a lot of confirmation in your post and all the others here.  It really feels like there may be pieces to the puzzle that will finally fit together someday, instead of having to just ignore the missing pieces.   :thanks:

[Beloved Servant]

Another comes to raise the Arc as all pass through Jordan!

:smile:  I'm afraid I don't exactly know what you're saying here, but it sounds nice.  Thank you!  :smile:

Awww, so sweet!
Read the story of Joshua.
The Jordan River represents death.
The Arc; Jesus.
We are the body of Christ supporting the Arc as the rest are given passage.
For the river is driven back all the way to Adam!