Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...
Don't believe everything you hear?
Welcome M7M -
I have sent a private message to your "Inbox" with a brief answer to your question.
Hope it helps in some way. If you have not found your PM INBOX, look around, you'll find it.
Anne
Hi Michelle. It can be a tough topic with multiple opinions. Please seek your answers within the Words of God, asking Him for understanding and for the Spirit to reveal the truth to you. Others may be able to help, but please be very careful to make sure mine or anyone else's words line up with Spirit-revelation within the scriptures.
I will tell you right up front that I don't claim to know or understand everything there is to know about this question you've asked. I will share a little information I've found that I felt led to share with you, as I think it's at least related to this huge topic. This is not a completely direct and total "answer" to your question, but may help with perspective and help you explore it further in a scripturally sound manner. I'm still sort of working through some of these similar issues myself. I believe though that the answers don't lie in our carnal thinking or vain imaginations - it's a spiritual issue. Our thoughts and wills need to be fit to the scriptures and God's leading, not try to fit the scriptures to our own wills and understanding. Others may have some sound-doctrinal input. In the meantime, I encourage you to pray, and seek within the scriptures.
----------
Is.26:9 ....when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness. (Kingdom age)
Notice in the verse above that it is when God judges that the inhabitants of the world learn righteousness. ....the more the judgment, the more righteousness. There are judgements that we observe in the everyday sowing and reaping that are intrinsic to creation. Judgement is part of the natural course of the creation....when judgement is swift and righteousness guaranteed, godly and ungodly will "learn righteousness".
Much of the world has missed altogether the scriptural purpose of God's judgement. Many have assumed it is what God has to do to "get back" at people who have been bad so that they "get what's coming to them." We are told sometimes that this is a balancing of the scales and therefore God is obligated by His own justice to do this. The question, however, is not what our human minds conceive in this area, but rather what the scripture says. The scripture paints a much more powerful and hopeful vision of God's judgements and their purpose.
Man seems to have a need for punishment to exist for punishments sake. Man's concept of judgement and justice is rooted in the carnal mind and its need to get even, or have revenge. This is contrasted with God who only uses punishment to create a Godly benefit that extends far beyond only satisfying the carnal lust for vengeance. Man has a problem with that idea because of our own selfishness and pride that wants to seek revenge and make those who hurt us to hurt as well. This is unscriptural of course.
Interestingly, the scripture refers many times to the combination of Righteousness, Judgement and Equity. This shows us that the purpose of Judgement is to bring about Righteousness (through purging people from evil ways) and Equity (from balancing the scales of Justice through restoration).
2Cor. 3:9 For if the ministration of condemnation be glory, much more doth the ministration of righteousness exceed in glory. 10 For even that which was made glorious had no glory in this respect, by reason of the glory that excelleth.
Interesting in the above verses that Condemnation (judgment) is glorious. Why? Because God uses it to bring about righteousness. It is better, however, to become righteous through Grace (the ministration of righteousness). Either way, judgement is through Christ and Grace is through Christ and both are for the express purpose of bringing us to Christ, who is our righteousness!
It was no accident I found this post by PaulH that I remembered from the past. I feel sure he won't care if I use it. It stuck in my memory at the time. There's probably so many layers and facets to this whole topic, but I believe Paul's following observations are very worthwhile to take into consideration;
"The Old Testament words that seem cruel and harsh and unforgiving actions of a supreme being is actually a depiction through actual events of what God will do to the evil children, fortresses, cultures, kingdoms and civilizations within each of us.
Within all of those things within us reside things that appear to do no harm, but we are deceived."
Some thoughts I have are, that I think maybe we forget sometimes how temporary this life is. The scriptures say it's but a vapor, lasts for a little while, then it's gone. Also, that it's like the grass of the fields, here for a little while then burned up.
God's plans and view of things is of ages and ages. Mankind's (as a whole) experience of evil is temporary, for a larger purpose than just mine or yours individual lives. He is working all things according to the counsel of His will. He has a plan that involves life, death, and redemption.
He rejoices in the death of the saints. And if the scriptures do indeed teach ultimate reconciliation of all things as we say they do, then even those that die without Him, following a period of corrective discipline, will be brought into His presence and arms of mercy. So when this life that's just a vapor is used for His overall purposes, even if that includes what we perceive as tragedy and death, it's a good, no perfect thing. Because God wills that all men be saved and be reconciled back to the Father. How He goes about it is His business.
Quote from: michelle7mickey on April 23, 2010, 03:35:22 AM
Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...
Under the Old Testament everything was according to LAW and we can see by what you have written what the law brings, death to all. But thanks be to God Jesus sacrifice changed all that, now there is life and salvation through grace.
CHB
:cloud9: Good posts, guys..... :thumbsup:
There are several easy-out answers that often people will revert to. One is, God's ways are not our ways . . ." Another is "does the pot question the potter why he fashioned the pot the way he did?. . ."
For me it's one of those things that obviously are pretty clear they happened. And in our limited understanding of things, we may measure life in this realm with too high of an expectation. Scripture does state that God used people in this realm as examples for us also in this realm to realize and live by. There are types and shadows on every level of this life that point to his nature and the fact that people were to be removed from this realm by God's instruction "appears" to be a terrible thing. But on the other hand . .where did they go? Did they go to a lower realm than this one?
I think a lot of it is we measure love in this realm by using the scale of how much we value life on this realm. Yet, this realm isn't the final destination for any of us. So we're in essence trying to use a temporary tool to measure an infinant Truth. I'm not saying we're not to value life here at all, I'm just wondering if we're using the wrong tool to approach God's nature sometimes.
No offense, but we have been religiously trained to think that we cannot understand what God would or wouldn't do as a God of Love, that is how some UR people can say Child rape is something God desires because "we can't understand it".
I don't think people realize it is the same argument that Hyper Calvinists use to say that God is righteous for creating a percentage of human beings with the intent to fry them forever. What makes the "we can't understand" argument good doctrine for the UR perspective and not for the Calvinists? It don't, for any perspective, because it is poor reasoning in the first place.
Hey Paul, I love how you're wording your differences. I appreciate the non-condeming way you're going about it. Not just here, but I've been following your remarks on other posts as well. And as such . . . what is your take on why God would instruct the warriors of one nation to kill the babies of another?
Nathan, that is such a HUGE undertaking to explain.
The Lord chose the lineage of Christ Jesus.
The Lord defended and offended this lineage.
EVERYTHING that has, is, and is to come centers on Christ Jesus.
Let him who has an ear...
There is nothing in the past, present or future that will still the march of God.
Those that Joshua slain were a hindrance to absolute truth.
Let him who has an ear...
Quote from: Nathan on April 25, 2010, 01:59:15 AM
Hey Paul, I love how you're wording your differences. I appreciate the non-condeming way you're going about it. Not just here, but I've been following your remarks on other posts as well. And as such . . . what is your take on why God would instruct the warriors of one nation to kill the babies of another?
Mainly I have come to see that such a literal thing is not really something God did to human beings walking the earth.
The bibical language is a way to express what God does within us through real events that happen.
For me, I know to the natural mind it sounds morbid, but I think for us to think these things did "not" happen literally, would be then saying that truth is reveal through fictional metaphor, even though we know God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths, how can truth come from something not true?
And are we to also think that God "would" have his own Son murdered for our redemption, but yet, that he would not have his chosen people to kill enemies of them and God to advance his kingdom and purposes just because "my" expectations of these matters isn't adding up?
This is why I wonder if we're not using the wrong tools of measurement when we're contemplating these matters. Meaning that our emphasis on thriving in this realm, be it something we're to cherish, but at the same time knowing that just because one dies here does not mean it is the end result of all things.
And it also reinforces the importance of walking in the spirit rather than reasoning in the flesh. My flesh has a way of putting itself above the nature of God in such a subtle way that I'm not always aware that it's happening in me.
Quote from: Nathan on April 26, 2010, 04:52:58 PM
For me, I know to the natural mind it sounds morbid, but I think for us to think these things did "not" happen literally, would be then saying that truth is reveal through fictional metaphor, even though we know God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths, how can truth come from something not true?
Well, then Jesus could not convey a truth through a parable.
Quote from: Nathan on April 26, 2010, 04:52:58 PM
For me, I know to the natural mind it sounds morbid, but I think for us to think these things did "not" happen literally, would be then saying that truth is reveal through fictional metaphor, even though we know God uses natural things to reveal spiritual truths, how can truth come from something not true?
And are we to also think that God "would" have his own Son murdered for our redemption, but yet, that he would not have his chosen people to kill enemies of them and God to advance his kingdom and purposes just because "my" expectations of these matters isn't adding up?
This is why I wonder if we're not using the wrong tools of measurement when we're contemplating these matters. Meaning that our emphasis on thriving in this realm, be it something we're to cherish, but at the same time knowing that just because one dies here does not mean it is the end result of all things.
And it also reinforces the importance of walking in the spirit rather than reasoning in the flesh. My flesh has a way of putting itself above the nature of God in such a subtle way that I'm not always aware that it's happening in me.
:cloud9: I personally look at the same way. He's God and He can do whatever He wants. This realm is not our home to begin with.
My :2c:........Blessings......
Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2010, 05:59:44 PM
:cloud9: I personally look at the same way. He's God and He can do whatever He wants. This realm is not our home to begin with.
My :2c:........Blessings......
I know many people who say that. Hyper calvinists are among them. Universalism is indeed the attempt to understand what God will or won't do. In our hearts we know that it is possible to know that is why when we break the chains of fear, we let it out.
Don't know what a hyper Calvinist is. And I guess I never looked at Universalism as something that is trying to understand the infinate nature of God. I just thought it was something that enables me to "accept" what has been done, and realize what's been done has affected the entire human race, regardless of the mind of man.
In fact, for me, it's somewhat the opposite in that to accept that the entire world is saved regardless as to whether or not there must be a conscious decision to accept Christ in order for the finished works of Christ to go into affect is actually saying the infinite work that was done is beyond the comprehension of the limited understanding of my mind. To those who've been able to grasp it, for me, are the same that were given a revelation of that truth, rather than come to it by natural reasoning.
It's when we embrace our personal conclusions that we find ourselves in offense to one another. I think universalism is our attempt at labeling this spiritual concept so that one "can" understand it to the best of one's ability, but the implications of this principle of ultimate reconciliation go far beyond the abilities of what our natural minds can comprehend on the matter.
If my mind ever came to the full understanding of the entirety of the nature of God through my own reasoning, it would then cause me to question the validity of God's infinate nature in the first place. Grace is one of the most powerful words in our vocabulary. It's not by knowledge of God or his principles of the kingdom that we are saved . .but it's by his grace.
I am just making the point concerning the use of an idea to promote what someone believes.
Hyper Calvinists are those who believe God is God and he can do whatever he wants.
So therefore our objection to the idea that God created a portion of mankind to fry in hell forever in order to advance his kingdom and purposes is moot.
Just because someones expectations do not add up to that does not mean it is not true.
Universalism promotes the idea that God would not do such a thing to some of creation whether anyone likes it or not.
:cloud9: I don't know what a hyper Calvinist is, either. I've never studied all the fragments of the "ists" and "isms" out there.
I personally have no doubt that the OT is an accurate record of what He did in dealing with Israel's enemies. I've always believed it and my investigation into the Bible codes comfirms the letter accuracy of the Word itself.
Mt. Sinai was a wedding joining God and Israel and that meant the enemies were coming against GOD and His "bride". A man that loves his wife would likely fight someone attacking his wife, so why wouldn't God?
Aside from that, from my perspective we came here knowing beforehand what our "assignment" was to walk out in this realm (before the veil of forgetfulness came upon us, ie. the carnal mind), and I think they are no exception to that.
From the vantage point of eternity that we have in the Spirit, it was the working out of the great plan of God and everyone has a part in that. Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2010, 09:13:25 PM
A man that loves his wife would likely fight someone attacking his wife, so why wouldn't God?
Sure, but that is not the implication. The implication seems to be that if the attacker has children, you go and kill them too.
Another message that we can find in the old testament language is that our actions do not only affect us personally.
A fathers deeds can reap disaster onto his children or perhaps even affect the country in which he lives in. I am not sure we can necessaily determine in every case what that might be exactly, but I think the issue is to be aware that our actions matter and to live ones life in the pursuit of righteousness due to that.
As I see it . . . the reason for removing the children is a picture of completeness. It wasn't enough to just cutting the tree down so-to-speak, but they were to uproot the poison all together. The biggest problem Israel had with their enemies was not so much the threat of being overtaken . . .all though that was a degree of concern as well. But in God's eyes, the concern was that Israel would allow their idols to mix in with their worship of him. That was always a problem with Israel right up to Babylonian captivity.
There isn't much mention of it after that. Even though they found themselves imploding later on. But again, the original thought for killing the children of the enemy was to see that in our lives as well, when we have been given full authority, the expectation is that we not walk as though we have only partial authority. Remove it all, better yet, allow God to remove all of the Gentile nations of thought, attitude and desires from within.
To hone in on just the physical aspect is to miss the spiritual principle all together.
:cloud9: That's the way I see it too, Nathan..... :thumbsup: Blessings.....
Quote from: Nathan on April 26, 2010, 10:36:28 PM
To hone in on just the physical aspect is to miss the spiritual principle all together.
Exactly, that is why I do not focus upon it being a physically literal event, but a picture of what we can see spiritually within us.
I believe everything in the old testament literally happened as stated below in verse 11.
1 Corinthians 10:11
10 Nor yet be murmuring even as some of them murmur, and perished by the exterminator.
11 Now all this befalls them typically. Yet it was written for our admonition, to whom the consummations of the eons have attained.
12 So that, let him who is supposing he stands beware that he should not be falling.
Though there may be some symbolism and interpretational things involved (a day/a thousand years, whole world/inhabited world, etc.) I believe it still literally happened as well, with spiritual applications (learning/admonition) for us.
I have no doubt that Armies went into lands and killed citizens, raped women, stabbed babies through the head with their swords. This doesn't mean that God honored baby murder by human hands because they wrote that God was on their side.
We were literally created too, because we are here, we at least got here somehow. I am sure humans commit incest too. That doesn't mean I have to rationalize that incest was a God honored thing that advanced the human race.
People scoff in more modern times when a human being says God commanded them to do what others call something evil. But why scoff? Perhaps it is only someone acting as they have been taught their father behaves.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 26, 2010, 06:27:43 PM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 26, 2010, 05:59:44 PM
:cloud9: I personally look at the same way. He's God and He can do whatever He wants. This realm is not our home to begin with.
My :2c:........Blessings......
I know many people who say that. Hyper calvinists are among them. Universalism is indeed the attempt to understand what God will or won't do. In our hearts we know that it is possible to know that is why when we break the chains of fear, we let it out.
Exactly, Paul. At least some believers in UR reached that revelation because they realized there was something morally wrong with God commanding one thing and then purportedly doing whatever evil He pleases. It is RIGHT to ask ourselves WHAT IS GOD LIKE. It is disappointing to me when UR believers begin to act like it is not important to them what God's character is like.
Anne
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 12:59:44 AM
I have no doubt that Armies went into lands and killed citizens, raped women, stabbed babies through the head with their swords. This doesn't mean that God honored baby murder by human hands because they wrote that God was on their side.
We were literally created too, because we are here, we at least got here somehow. I am sure humans commit incest too. That doesn't mean I have to rationalize that incest was a God honored thing that advanced the human race.
Exactly, again, Paul. I am really tired of the implication that just because there is so much evil going on in the world that God must want it that way. I reject that thoroughly!!!
It is the slippery slope of religion and fear that promotes such dogma.
Anne
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 01:01:34 AM
People scoff in more modern times when a human being says God commanded them to do what others call something evil. But why scoff? Perhaps it is only someone acting as they have been taught their father behaves.
Exactly! Let us reason together! My God is not UNREASONABLE. Sheesh!
Anne
I think a lot of it has to do with the perversions of carnality itself. This is the realm of death and decay. When you feed into it, it will lead to unspeakable and twisted tortures and death of the very beings God cherished as his own creations. Of course God isn't pleased but it's the course we've been put on since Adam. Talk about generational curses. But the authority really doesn't lie in the observing of perverisions of men. The power comes when we are surrounded by our own perversions and yet as we yield to the Father, we can become illuminators of his light and love toward others who are also bound by secret perversions and darknesses of their own.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 27, 2010, 01:06:10 AM
Exactly, Paul. At least some believers in UR reached that revelation because they realized there was something morally wrong with God commanding one thing and then purportedly doing whatever evil He pleases. It is RIGHT to ask ourselves WHAT IS GOD LIKE. It is disappointing to me when UR believers begin to act like it is not important to them what God's character is like.
Anne
[/quote]
I'm not sure I would say it's not important so much as it's hard to comprehend. The thing about revelation is that it's not an area logic plays much of a role at. It appears to us as we mature in Christ at different intervals in our lives and as such, when we come to areas where we haven't seen the reality of it yet, it's not that we don't care, but we know that as we advance in the kingdom, God will reveal it eventually. Until then, we just wait on the back-burner with things that we can't explain for now.
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2010, 12:43:08 AM
Though there may be some symbolism and interpretational things involved (a day/a thousand years, whole world/inhabited world, etc.) I believe it still literally happened as well, with spiritual applications (learning/admonition) for us.
And what of those who don't believe certain things literally happened? Or what of those who believe that if certain things literally happened, that it is because they were not hearing from the true God? I already know your answer. But the fact is, some people who are Christians do hold this other view. And neither can be proved right or wrong. But we can REASON about such things without fear.
Anne
:cloud9: But I think it can and has been proved to be literal, as the Bible codes prove the Torah is letter perfect, as the odds are in the millions to one that the codes found could exist. And if letter perfect, then a divine writer was at work thru men used of the Holy Spirit. My :2c: Blessings....
I like the way The Amplified footnotes this verse.
Isaiah 45:7;
I form the light and create darkness, I make peace [national well-being] and I create [physical] [a]evil (calamity); I am the Lord, Who does all these things.
Footnotes:
a. Isaiah 45:7 Moral evil proceeds from the will of men, but physical evil proceeds from the will of God.
Amos 3:6;
I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.
Lamentations 3:38;
Out of the mouth of the most High proceedeth not evil and good?
Well, then maybe God does created most of humanity to fry forever, after all, whos to question God.
He does as he pleases.
The beautiful Psalm 13
1 HOW LONG will You forget me, O Lord? Forever? How long will You hide Your face from me?
2 How long must I lay up cares within me and have sorrow in my heart day after day? How long shall my enemy exalt himself over me?
3 Consider and answer me, O Lord my God; lighten the eyes [of my faith to behold Your face in the pitchlike darkness], lest I sleep the sleep of death,
4 Lest my enemy say, I have prevailed over him, and those that trouble me rejoice when I am shaken.
5 But I have trusted, leaned on, and been confident in Your mercy and loving-kindness; my heart shall rejoice and be in high spirits in Your salvation.
6 I will sing to the Lord, because He has dealt bountifully with me.
Matthew 7
7 "Request and it shall be given you. Seek and you shall find. Knock and it shall be opened to you.
8 For everyone who is requesting is obtaining, and who is seeking is finding, and to him who is knocking it shall be opened.
QuoteMt 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;
Quote from: Cardinal on April 27, 2010, 01:24:54 AM
a divine writer was at work thru men used of the Holy Spirit. My :2c: Blessings....
Amen Card.
I've been enjoying the discussion, if michelle wants to join in she is welcome.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 27, 2010, 01:14:29 AM
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2010, 12:43:08 AM
Though there may be some symbolism and interpretational things involved (a day/a thousand years, whole world/inhabited world, etc.) I believe it still literally happened as well, with spiritual applications (learning/admonition) for us.
And what of those who don't believe certain things literally happened? Or what of those who believe that if certain things literally happened, that it is because they were not hearing from the true God? I already know your answer.
Anne
OK.
-----------------------------
I think I'm out of this discussion now and will be moderating only. It looks as if it may be necessary.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 02:34:16 AM
Do the rules prevent a mod from making insulting comments to the posters?
It's not a insult if someone comes on a site questioning your beliefs then leaves offering no response! Creating conflict among seekers! Your were set up Paul!
I'm suprised at your level of post you did not see this!
Paul
I see your point Paul/Pierac, but I was personally just looking at it as much of a discussion amongst other members as much as "responding" to Michelle - whether she came back around or not. I have been watching her profile, and she was only on about 20 minutes and hasn't been back. Seems a few folks were interested in the topic, but I agree, it is one that OBVIOUSLY can bring dissension. :dontknow:
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2010, 02:55:19 AM
I see your point Paul/Pierac, but I was personally just looking at it as much of a discussion amongst other members as much as "responding" to Michelle - whether she came back around or not. I have been watching her profile, and she was only on about 20 minutes and hasn't been back. Seems a few folks were interested in the topic, but I agree, it is one that OBVIOUSLY can bring dissension. :dontknow:
Then we shall unlock the topic!
But we should all understanding we are seeking truth, not responding to Michelle or some Troll if that be what she is!
Topic is now unlocked! Enjoy the topic!
Paul
I'm OK either way, because I do want it be able to be discussed without taking petty shots at people or subtle suggestions that the scriptures themselves are not to be trusted - taking into account translation, interpretation, etc.
It's likely one of those topics that will be need to be moderated closely. Thanks Paul.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 27, 2010, 01:08:58 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 12:59:44 AM
I have no doubt that Armies went into lands and killed citizens, raped women, stabbed babies through the head with their swords. This doesn't mean that God honored baby murder by human hands because they wrote that God was on their side.
We were literally created too, because we are here, we at least got here somehow. I am sure humans commit incest too. That doesn't mean I have to rationalize that incest was a God honored thing that advanced the human race.
Exactly, again, Paul. I am really tired of the implication that just because there is so much evil going on in the world that God must want it that way. I reject that thoroughly!!!
It is the slippery slope of religion and fear that promotes such dogma.
"Two choices, one word; Syncretism!"Corrupted thoughts, as in devilish –
For I desire mercy, not sacrifice.
When you eat of the tree of man's knowledge, you get both; good and evil.
"For My thoughts are not your thoughts, Nor are your ways My ways..."
"I have spread out My hands all day long to a rebellious people, Who walk in the way which is not good..."peacemaker
God ordered the death of those nations and children for one simple reason, survival. It was a military reason. God was teaching Israel's leaders and even commanded them, when defending from attack or when invading another nation not to allow anyone to live or when they grow up their descendents will seek revenge.
God taught Israel, as a nation, in order to survive that when no enimies, current or future are left behind there would not be residual attacks.
We need to remember that Israel was a real nation really living amongst hostile nations and they had an army and were attacked and attacked others. God, who gave them intsructions on all things, also gave intruction concearning thier war tactics.
It appears that some men see similarities between their thoughts and that of the SPIRIT, however, there are very dissimilar functions beneath which are unrelated to man's common descent into hell and genocide.
Survival mode is within the minds of men; death.
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it."
peacemaker
Quote from: Dallas on April 27, 2010, 03:29:20 AM
God ordered the death of those nations and children for one simple reason, survival. It was a military reason. God was teaching Israel's leaders and even commanded them, when defending from attack or when invading another nation not to allow anyone to live or when they grow up their descendents will seek revenge.
God taught Israel, as a nation, in order to survive that when no enimies, current or future are left behind there would not be residual attacks.
We need to remember that Israel was a real nation really living amongst hostile nations and they had an army and were attacked and attacked others. God, who gave them intsructions on all things, also gave intruction concearning thier war tactics.
So can we say that is how we should conduct military operations now?
Quote from: Pierac on April 27, 2010, 02:25:29 AM
Hello people... Anyone notice michelle7mickey has made only 2 post? Hello??? Can anyone say TROLL!
Jesus, are you guys this blind to whom your responding?
michelle7mickey has in no way earned what you have given her! Test the Spirit you read from her! I do not judge, I only see, but why should you share your pearls to those whom would just trample them?
Paul
Well, for the record, I certainly am not Michelle7Mickey, but feel that Paul has sort of implied that I might be. So I just thought I'd set the record straight.
Anne
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 01:49:48 AM
Well, then maybe God does created most of humanity to fry forever, after all, whos to question God.
He does as he pleases.
I can see how one could reach that conclusion if they believe the scriptures literally from cover to cover.
I have come to realize that there are what I would call UR FUNDAMENTALISTS. They operate almost exactly the same
as your typical right-wing churchy fundamentalist. I'm not one of them - that is for sure.
Anne
Quote from: peacemaker on April 27, 2010, 04:28:08 AM
It appears that some men see similarities between their thoughts and that of the SPIRIT, however, there are very dissimilar functions beneath which are unrelated to man's common descent into hell and genocide.
Survival mode is within the minds of men; death.
"For whoever wishes to save his life will lose it, but whoever loses his life for My sake and the gospel's will save it."
peacemaker
Thank you, Peacemaker for choosing to clarify these things. Survival of the fittest often boils down to survival of the one who loves his life in this world more than anything. That, it appears is why there is so much war and bloodshed all around. Jesus did not seek to save his life. He is our pattern.
Anne
:cloud9: Well, then I guess I'm a UR fundamentalist because I believe the scriptures from cover to cover.
To me, aside from being obvious by virtue of the fact that Jesus Christ was the spiritual embodiment produced by the OT scriptures (ALL of them, not just the ones in Isaiah), additional "proof" lies in the fact that He is being produced IN US from those same scriptures every time revelation is unlocked from them.
Paul said to the Galatians that Christ needed to be formed in them. It is by the revelation of all the scriptures that He is formed in us as a heart of (celestial or spiritual) flesh. Blessings.....
Quote from: Cardinal on April 27, 2010, 06:43:32 AM
:cloud9: Well, then I guess I'm a UR fundamentalist because I believe the scriptures from cover to cover.
To me, aside from being obvious by virtue of the fact that Jesus Christ was the spiritual embodiment produced by the OT scriptures (ALL of them, not just the ones in Isaiah), additional "proof" lies in the fact that He is being produced IN US from those same scriptures every time revelation is unlocked from them.
Paul said to the Galatians that Christ needed to be formed in them. It is by the revelation of all the scriptures that He is formed in us as a heart of (celestial or spiritual) flesh. Blessings.....
Paul (the apostle) said he was determined to know nothing among his brethren but CHRIST AND HIM CRUCIFIED. I wonder if we actually understand what Paul meant by that statement? Cardinal - you can be a biblical literalist and innerrantist if you choose, however, you should be careful about condemning those who are not because you very well might find in the end that you are wrong about some things. Humility - we all need it, lest we be found esteeming ourselves as better than others.
Anne
:cloud9: Yes I do know what Paul meant by that statement, which again is by revelation of the Spirit only. And I haven't said anything condemning anyone.
I have no idea who Fred Phelps is......which is probably a good thing...... :laughing7: :dontknow:
Quote from: Cardinal on April 27, 2010, 06:59:24 AM
:cloud9: Yes I do know what Paul meant by that statement, which again is by revelation of the Spirit only. And I haven't said anything condemning anyone.
I have no idea who Fred Phelps is......which is probably a good thing...... :laughing7: :dontknow:
Gosh, I thought everyone (at least those in the modern Christian world) knew who Fred Phelps is. He's in the news a lot.
He is very opinionated and very certain about his views of "Who God is and What God thinks and does".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 27, 2010, 06:31:28 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 01:49:48 AM
Well, then maybe God does created most of humanity to fry forever, after all, whos to question God.
He does as he pleases.
I can see how one could reach that conclusion if they believe the scriptures literally from cover to cover.
I have come to realize that there are what I would call UR FUNDAMENTALISTS. They operate almost exactly the same
as your typical right-wing churchy fundamentalist. I'm not one of them - that is for sure.
Anne
I was being a bit sarcastic because you can use that argument for anything. Gods character is in scripture and we can determine what he will and won't do. Some seem to get offended that someone dares to say they can learn what God won't do. I know that the scriptures ARE true. Disagreeing with someone concerning what scripture is telling us has nothing to do with believing the scriptures are not sound.
If I believe the whole bible is a metaphor I am asserting that religion is not necessarily correct, nothing more.
Thanks Paul, good clarification. :thumbsup: (Who, you? Sarcastic? :bigGrin:)
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2010, 07:22:16 AM
Thanks Paul, good clarification. :thumbsup: (Who, you? Sarcastic? :bigGrin:)
LOL, never.
Quote from: Raggedy Anne on April 27, 2010, 07:09:36 AM
Quote from: Cardinal on April 27, 2010, 06:59:24 AM
:cloud9: Yes I do know what Paul meant by that statement, which again is by revelation of the Spirit only. And I haven't said anything condemning anyone.
I have no idea who Fred Phelps is......which is probably a good thing...... :laughing7: :dontknow:
Gosh, I thought everyone (at least those in the modern Christian world) knew who Fred Phelps is. He's in the news a lot.
He is very opinionated and very certain about his views of "Who God is and What God thinks and does".
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fred_Phelps
:cloud9: Nope......I'm not a watcher of Christendom and not a lot of news unless it's something He draws my attention to for intercession. Blessings.....
I believe even every letter is inspired and should be read. When it comes to Holy Scripture, God preserving His Word refers the actual words He choose to make His revelation known. These were in Greek and Hebrew. For years The Canadian Bible Society published something called The Numerical New Testament by (I thinK) Ivan Panin. Because the letters of Greek, and Hebrew as well, are numbers as well as letters, without knowing the language(s) with a chart and an inter-linear you can examine the mathmatical patterning that Holy Scripture contains. Through this means what is thought to be authoritatively "THE" text was arrived at and published. For a good translation that gives the evidence of the original languages, the Concordant Literal Translation as well has all the words of the "Textus Receptis" and the three oldest Uncials. The difference between all the manuscript evidence has been said to be, other than word order, only about fifty instances and no important doctrine hangs or falls on any of them.
I liken it to about a meter square of cloth from the bedchamber of the king at Versailles of gold with jewels, rubies and pearls entwined that I saw on display at DKOTA (Design Center of the Americas) in Ft Lauderdale, FL. While insured for $30,000 Dollars, the curator that accompanied it said it was actually priceless. They were refurbishing the bedroom, which is how it came to be so far from home. There were several things wrong with what I saw. Some jewels were missing, for instance. Like the cloth of a cloak of the king is how I see Scripture. There is an obvious testimony to Divine perfections, inerrancy, though frayed a bit here or there, maybe a jewel missing. But the obvious cannot be hidden for those who have the will to use their eyes to see.
As far as "fundamentalism" is concerned, those of that stripe wouldn't ever have me unless it was their reward for dancing the dance of seven veils. That means I think they'd accept my head on a platter.
Acts 24:14-16 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
14 "Yet I am avowing this to you, that, according to the way which they are terming a sect, thus am I offering divine service to the hereditary God, believing all that is written, according to the law and in the prophets,
15 having an expectation in God, which these themselves also are anticipating, that there shall be a resurrection which is impending for both the just and the unjust.
16 "In this, I am exerting myself also, to have a conscience which is no stumbling block toward God and men, continually.
:cloud9: Amen :thumbsup: The letters are literally symbols of His breath.......just as He spoke everything into existance. Blessings.....
I've cleaned this thread up some, including some of the mod posts - including my own.
Any further scriptural insights that may help our understanding?
Quote from: CardinalIt is by the revelation of all the scriptures that He is formed in us as a heart of (celestial or spiritual) flesh.
That's a keeper. :bigGrin:
just catching up on this thread. Apparently I wasn't around to see what was written before it needed cleaned up . . .and probably just as well. :wink2:
But I did want to reach back a bit and address the "fundamentalist" conversations just a bit. I'm not sure everyone was seeing the word in the same light. For me, I used to be a fundamentalist if you regard it to be one that rigidly adheres to what is written only and anything metaphoric or spiritually discerned was coldly frowned upon. So for me, a fundamentalist was more than just believing everything was literal, it was believing everything was ONLY to be taken literal.
But then I found that walking in the spirit is more than just enforcing what's literally written. So if I were to pursue that direction, I had to let go of my "fundamentalist" position. I still believe the entire Bible has a literal application to it, but for me, that's just the first step of a much deeper reality. There's the moral lessons we learn from those literal experiences, and even more importantly is the spiritual revelation that lies beneath the surface of the moral venue as well.
This actually reminds me of . .who was it . . .Achan? The guy who hid silver and gold in his tent . . .the silver was buried at one level, but then deeper down below that was the gold. Granted, in that story, it implicated the silver and gold had the stamp of pagans, but there's always a reverse side to every story, you just have to look for it is all. Kind of like a silver lining behind every cloud sort of thing.
I was kind of like you Nathan, I was more of a literal than a spiritual reader of the Bible. I saw everything literal. It has only been a few years that I have come to see that if we take the Bible literally we can learn more spiritual truths from it if we think spiritually. As Paul said, "set your mind on things above and not things here below". I think both literal and spiritual lessons are to be learned from the Bible and I believe all of the things that are written literally did happen. I believe every word that was originally written by the prophets and apostles were inspired by God Himself, for our learning and admonition.
About why Israel killed whole nations including children:
God chose Israel to be an example for the whole world, to show forth his power and glory and the fact that he existed. To Israel he showed his love and mercy, to the nations his power and glory. (Ex. 14:18) And the Egyptians shall know that I am the Lord, when I have gotten me honour upon Pharaoh. (Ex. 15:2-13)
(Ex. 23:22) But if thou shalt indeed obey his voice, and do all that I speak; then I will be an ENEMY UNTO THINE ENEMIES, and an ADVERSARY UNTO THINE ADVERSARIES. (Ex. 23:27) I will send MY FEAR before thee, and will destroy all the people to whom thou shalt come.
(Ex. 34:10) And he said, Behold I make a covenant: Before all thy people I will do marvels, such as have not been done in all the earth, nor in any nation: and all the people among which thou art shall see the work of the Lord: for it is a terrible thing that I will do with thee.
(Lev. 20: 23) And ye shall not walk in the manners of the nation, which I CAST OUT BEFORE YOU: FOR THEY COMMITTED ALL THESE THINGS, AND THEREFORE i ABHORRED THEM.
CHB
QuoteSo can we say that is how we should conduct military operations now?
That's up to the politicians, as far as God is concearned, the goevrnment has changed. Israel isn't the chosen nation, for all are the chosen nation, if one were to rise up against another then it would be Kingdom of God vs. Kingdom of God.
Psalm 2: 6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession."
and
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them
All of the nations are God's, therefore He isn't about to genocide what is His. For all have been washed in the blood and all have been reconcilled. The nations before weren't.
Excellent input today everyone. Thanks! :thumbsup:
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood
Gods character is in scripture and we can determine what he will and won't do. Some seem to get offended that someone dares to say they can learn what God won't do. I know that the scriptures ARE true. Disagreeing with someone concerning what scripture is telling us has nothing to do with believing the scriptures are not sound.
If I believe the whole bible is a metaphor I am asserting that religion is not necessarily correct, nothing more.
Well said - I completely agree with you on these points.
Anne
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 01:49:33 AM
QuoteSo can we say that is how we should conduct military operations now?
That's up to the politicians, as far as God is concearned, the goevrnment has changed. Israel isn't the chosen nation, for all are the chosen nation, if one were to rise up against another then it would be Kingdom of God vs. Kingdom of God.
Psalm 2: 6 "But as for Me, I have installed My King
Upon Zion, My holy mountain."
7"I will surely tell of the decree of the LORD:
He said to Me, 'You are My Son,
Today I have begotten You.
8'Ask of Me, and I will surely give the nations as Your inheritance,
And the very ends of the earth as Your possession."
and
Revelation 21:1 "Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth passed away, and there is no longer any sea.
2And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, made ready as a bride adorned for her husband.
3And I heard a loud voice from the throne, saying, "Behold, the tabernacle of God is among men, and He will dwell among them, and they shall be His people, and God Himself will be among them
All of the nations are God's, therefore He isn't about to genocide what is His. For all have been washed in the blood and all have been reconcilled. The nations before weren't.
So Hitler was leading a nation of God?
QuoteSo Hitler was leading a nation of God?
No, Hitler lived within the nation of God, he lead a group of people known as Germans, who also lived within the nation of God.
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 05:00:44 AM
QuoteSo Hitler was leading a nation of God?
No, Hitler lived within the nation of God, he lead a group of people known as Germans, who also lived within the nation of God.
What was the nation of God then?
QuoteWhat was the nation of God then?
Since the comming of Christ on the clouds in 70 AD, the bringing down of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem Christ sat as King of all creation, the new King appointed on Mount Zion and He claimed all of creation as His new Kingdom.
So since 70 AD, Jesus has been king over all and all are subjects in His kingdom, even so as is now. Hitler was one of the many who have, is and will come who will try to have thier own peice of that kingdom. Just as Stalin, Atila the Hun, Mao etc.
The nation is usually percieved as the believers as a body of people, but there are also the nations boarders. And just as with other nations, there are rebels and those who cause dissention, but all these people do these things from within the nation, not from the outside.
These "evil" men were no different. God used other groups to unite against them as it will be until the message of grace spreads to all about thier acceptance.
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 08:19:26 PM
QuoteWhat was the nation of God then?
Since the comming of Christ on the clouds in 70 AD, the bringing down of the Temple and the destruction of Jerusalem Christ sat as King of all creation, the new King appointed on Mount Zion and He claimed all of creation as His new Kingdom.
So since 70 AD, Jesus has been king over all and all are subjects in His kingdom, even so as is now. Hitler was one of the many who have, is and will come who will try to have thier own peice of that kingdom. Just as Stalin, Atila the Hun, Mao etc.
The nation is usually percieved as the believers as a body of people, but there are also the nations boarders. And just as with other nations, there are rebels and those who cause dissention, but all these people do these things from within the nation, not from the outside.
These "evil" men were no different. God used other groups to unite against them as it will be until the message of grace spreads to all about thier acceptance.
So is this nation spiritual? If not you need to explain what the nation and it's borders mean in terms of the kingdom of God against the kingdom of God. Since 70ad nations of earth have risen up against one another, so how is that not the kingdom of God against the kingdom of God?
Hey Paul;
Its both spiritual and literal. We are literaly within the boarders of the nation of Heaven. We are within His kingdom. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is within North America, North America is within the Norther Hemisphere, which is within the Milky Way Galaxy which is within creation which is within the Kingdom of Heaven.
As far as nation vs. nation.
When I was growing up I had my room and my sister had her room, yet we still lived in my Mother's house. There were times when my sister and I were at "war" with each other, yet we still remained in "Mother's house." It wasn't Mother's House vs. Mother's house even though it was taking place within her house.
As is creation now, if one nation wars with another, it's not KOH vs KOH, it's brother vs. brother. Just as was with my sister and I, it's Parents who will ultimatley deal with the conflict.
Quote from: Dallas on April 28, 2010, 09:01:32 PM
Hey Paul;
Its both spiritual and literal. We are literaly within the boarders of the nation of Heaven. We are within His kingdom. Just as I am in Canada, Canada is within North America, North America is within the Norther Hemisphere, which is within the Milky Way Galaxy which is within creation which is within the Kingdom of Heaven.
As far as nation vs. nation.
When I was growing up I had my room and my sister had her room, yet we still lived in my Mother's house. There were times when my sister and I were at "war" with each other, yet we still remained in "Mother's house." It wasn't Mother's House vs. Mother's house even though it was taking place within her house.
As is creation now, if one nation wars with another, it's not KOH vs KOH, it's brother vs. brother. Just as was with my sister and I, it's Parents who will ultimatley deal with the conflict.
You have given me a lot to consider, thanks.
QuoteYou have given me a lot to consider, thanks.
Cool, it's much easier to get a message across when there is only two people talking at once, LOL!
While people are often stupified facing just the change that comes when we put off this form, Jesus manifested in at least eight forms mentioned in Scripture. To become another form He had to die to the previous. If we pick it up about Philippians 2 we find He was, "Inherently in the form of God," and, "deems it not pillaging to be equal with God." From this expression of identity is His "self-emptying" (Grk: kenosis.) This was a process, from a place upon high to descend into clothing Himself with a female form, an egg in Mary, which crushed the head of the nachash ("serpent, hissing divination.") Then He was a man, a lowly slave, which is where He can say, "My Father is greater than I." Then He was obedient to the death of the cross. In the form of a Spirit He preached to the dead. Then He was resurrected as an incorruptible immortal.
Next He ascends into the right hand of God so was able to send Himself into us as Spirit. This is the form He is in right now, on the right of God and present as the head of us, His body, through His indwelling Spirit within us. This form He is in now is not apparent to the world; but, we see Him. The next phase He will be revealed, coming forth from whence He dwells: within us in the heavenlies.
I say that to say His reign is within us because He is in us, but still a mystery to the world. The world is still in, "...offenses and sins in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness..." (Eph 2:1-2, CLT)
Philippians 2:5-7 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The rule of God in His people has some extension into the world by that means, through us. Otherwise the world is in darkness and God's reign has yet to manifest outwardly. When we are brought to inherit the liberation of our physical bodies by being born of the Resurrection, then shall the kingdom of God be revealed to the rest of the world and His, "Will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens." And we shall reign in all the earth!
:cloud9: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteWhile people are often stupified facing just the change that comes when we put off this form, Jesus manifested in at least eight forms mentioned in Scripture. To become another form He had to die to the previous. If we pick it up about Philippians 2 we find He was, "Inherently in the form of God," and, "deems it not pillaging to be equal with God." From this expression of identity is His "self-emptying" (Grk: kenosis.) This was a process, from a place upon high to descend into clothing Himself with a female form, an egg in Mary, which crushed the head of the nachash ("serpent, hissing divination.") Then He was a man, a lowly slave, which is where He can say, "My Father is greater than I." Then He was obedient to the death of the cross. In the form of a Spirit He preached to the dead. Then He was resurrected as an incorruptible immortal.
Next He ascends into the right hand of God so was able to send Himself into us as Spirit. This is the form He is in right now, on the right of God and present as the head of us, His body, through His indwelling Spirit within us. This form He is in now is not apparent to the world; but, we see Him. The next phase He will be revealed, coming forth from whence He dwells: within us in the heavenlies.
I say that to say His reign is within us because He is in us, but still a mystery to the world. The world is still in, "...offenses and sins in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness..." (Eph 2:1-2, CLT)
Philippians 2:5-7 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The rule of God in His people has some extension into the world by that means, through us. Otherwise the world is in darkness and God's reign has yet to manifest outwardly. When we are brought to inherit the liberation of our physical bodies by being born of the Resurrection, then shall the kingdom of God be revealed to the rest of the world and His, "Will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens." And we shall reign in all the earth!
Reformer, I think everything you said was complete imaginary, and honestly has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry that my opinion is different, but nothing you said is biblical. Unless you reach into the bible and pull things out indisciminatley and re-translate them to something they never meant to begin with.
So to balance what Cardinal said, :dontknow: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Dallas,
You're out of balance!
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 29, 2010, 06:22:04 PM
Dallas,
You're out of balance!
"But the freedom I have recieved through what I believe has changed my life...
Galatians 5:1 "For it is freedom that Christ has set you free" (quote by Dallas)
if that's out of balance, then I want some. :)
Zeek,
From this we can see how easily things that are right in front of us are unseen.
I was simply referring to the balance of images.
Cardinal posted three thumbs up
Dallas posted only two thumbs down.
Cardinal is leading by 33.333∞
Quote from: Dallas on April 29, 2010, 07:48:50 AM
QuoteWhile people are often stupified facing just the change that comes when we put off this form, Jesus manifested in at least eight forms mentioned in Scripture. To become another form He had to die to the previous. If we pick it up about Philippians 2 we find He was, "Inherently in the form of God," and, "deems it not pillaging to be equal with God." From this expression of identity is His "self-emptying" (Grk: kenosis.) This was a process, from a place upon high to descend into clothing Himself with a female form, an egg in Mary, which crushed the head of the nachash ("serpent, hissing divination.") Then He was a man, a lowly slave, which is where He can say, "My Father is greater than I." Then He was obedient to the death of the cross. In the form of a Spirit He preached to the dead. Then He was resurrected as an incorruptible immortal.
Next He ascends into the right hand of God so was able to send Himself into us as Spirit. This is the form He is in right now, on the right of God and present as the head of us, His body, through His indwelling Spirit within us. This form He is in now is not apparent to the world; but, we see Him. The next phase He will be revealed, coming forth from whence He dwells: within us in the heavenlies.
I say that to say His reign is within us because He is in us, but still a mystery to the world. The world is still in, "...offenses and sins in which once you walked, in accord with the eon of this world, in accord with the chief of the jurisdiction of the air, the spirit now operating in the sons of stubbornness..." (Eph 2:1-2, CLT)
Philippians 2:5-7 (Concordant Literal Translation)...
5 For let this disposition be in you, which is in Christ Jesus also,
6 Who, being inherently in the form of God, deems it not pillaging to be equal with God,
7 nevertheless empties Himself, taking the form of a slave, coming to be in the likeness of humanity,
8 and, being found in fashion as a human, He humbles Himself, becoming obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
The rule of God in His people has some extension into the world by that means, through us. Otherwise the world is in darkness and God's reign has yet to manifest outwardly. When we are brought to inherit the liberation of our physical bodies by being born of the Resurrection, then shall the kingdom of God be revealed to the rest of the world and His, "Will be done, in earth as it is in the heavens." And we shall reign in all the earth!
Reformer, I think everything you said was complete imaginary, and honestly has nothing to do with the bible. Sorry that my opinion is different, but nothing you said is biblical. Unless you reach into the bible and pull things out indisciminatley and re-translate them to something they never meant to begin with.
So to balance what Cardinal said, :dontknow: :thumbdown: :thumbdown:
Hmmm . . . wouldn't it have been a little more edifying for all if the response to reFORMer would have been "I'm in a different place right now" rather than attempting to regard reFORMer's perception of what is being seen as degradingly wrong? The bluntness of the response distracts everyone from the intent of the thread.
Upon rereading your response previous to your last, you were stating that things are both spiritual and literal. You went on to explain that you are in Canada, but also in the northern hemisphere and your reference to nation agianst nation, you went "inward" to the nations of thought and principles within us rise up against other nations of thought and principles.
I'm not looking to get into yet another sparring match, but how is what you said any different to what reFORMer was doing? he even blended Scirpture in with what he was saying and yet you declared it was unbiblical? There are many on this forum who don't all agree with what I project, but telling them they're wrong and I'm right is only setting the atmosphere for a fight and another locked thread.
I "want" to grow from people like reFORMer. I want to absorb the things they see through their relationship with the Father so that I can rejoice with them and advance my own relationship with the Father at the same time. None of us have the entire package. I believe my experiences teach me more than knowledge from another. And in my expeireinces, I've learned that no one really has the authority to deny and discredit another for their point of views. I want to use the sword to stab others to life, not death.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on April 29, 2010, 06:42:50 PM
Zeek,
From this we can see how easily things that are right in front of us are unseen.
I was simply referring to the balance of images.
Cardinal posted three thumbs up
Dallas posted only two thumbs down.
Cardinal is leading by 33.333∞
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
QuoteHmmm . . . wouldn't it have been a little more edifying for all if the response to reFORMer would have been "I'm in a different place right now" rather than attempting to regard reFORMer's perception of what is being seen as degradingly wrong? The bluntness of the response distracts everyone from the intent of the thread.
Hmmmm.....hey Nathan. I'm in a different place right now about how I respond to people."
But if you desire sugar coating go buy a donut. I simply call it as I see it, and I believe people deserve truth not some sideways confusion as I try to tippy-toe around their feelings.
Ok, now to your more interesting and non-controlling response,
QuoteUpon rereading your response previous to your last, you were stating that things are both spiritual and literal. You went on to explain that you are in Canada, but also in the northern hemisphere and your reference to nation agianst nation, you went "inward" to the nations of thought and principles within us rise up against other nations of thought and principles.
I actually don't follow what you are trying to say here. Could you re-word it?
QuoteI'm not looking to get into yet another sparring match, but how is what you said any different to what reFORMer was doing? he even blended Scirpture in with what he was saying and yet you declared it was unbiblical? There are many on this forum who don't all agree with what I project, but telling them they're wrong and I'm right is only setting the atmosphere for a fight and another locked thread.
We'll, if you read what you suggested, then you will see that nothing I was talking about was with Reformer, but instead with mR. Hazelwood. We had a good conversation and reformer started up a different thought, I was responding to the different thought and direction he was going. I don't even think he was responding to what Hazelwood and I were talking about.
QuoteI "want" to grow from people like reFORMer. I want to absorb the things they see through their relationship with the Father so that I can rejoice with them and advance my own relationship with the Father at the same time. None of us have the entire package. I believe my experiences teach me more than knowledge from another. And in my expeireinces, I've learned that no one really has the authority to deny and discredit another for their point of views. I want to use the sword to stab others to life, not death.
Well, go ahead then, don't let my opinion stop you from reading what he said...gonna let you in on a secret....not everyone sees things the way you do. You will have people who disagree....you need to let them.
Disagreeing is a good thing. It can still be a possitive experience. We "nee" to be different otherwise we'd lose the uniqueness of God's nature. I have absolutely no issues with people seeing things differently. It's the declarations of one being wrong over another being right that makes me cringe. That's all I was trying to say with that. If I can walk away from a disagreement and still be edified at the same time, then we've accomplished something special.
QuoteDisagreeing is a good thing. It can still be a possitive experience. We "nee" to be different otherwise we'd lose the uniqueness of God's nature. I have absolutely no issues with people seeing things differently. It's the declarations of one being wrong over another being right that makes me cringe. That's all I was trying to say with that. If I can walk away from a disagreement and still be edified at the same time, then we've accomplished something special.
Whenever someone asserts their opinion, they do so with a belief that they are right. So if you want a conversation where none thinks they are right you will need to talk about the weather. But when expressing yourself you do so with an inclination towards what you think is right.
Don't pretend to think that just because I openly say what I know, that means that I am the only one who thinks what they believe is right. I say what I believe because I believe it is correct, just as you do. I just don't pretend to be open-minded, I am open-minded, the information also has to be convincing with sound biblical understanding not mystical gnosticism.
I call the kettle black when it is, I also live by, "You need to be willing to be wrong", I have sifted through abunch of garbage and when I see that stuff I will say what it is.
willieH: Hi Michelle... :welcome:
Your :welcome: or intial post has become quite the discussion... Actually this forum is for one to introduce themselves to the fam, and other categories are reserved for this type of discussion.
Would you consider telling us about yourself? :dunno:
Anyhoo, (though I have not read the entire thread)... here is my :2c: concerning the question you have proposed... :wink1:
Quote from: michelle7mickey on April 23, 2010, 03:35:22 AM
Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...
As I see it...
When one endeavors to observe the 2 covenants... one should (if one seeks SPIRITUAL understanding of them, and how they relate to one another), begin [IMO], by applying DIVINE order to them:
1 Cor 15:46 ---
howbeit, that was NOT FIRST which IS SPIRITUAL, but that which is NATURAL [= old covenant]; and ...AFTERWARD... that which IS SPIRITUAL [= new covenant].The
Old Covenant is: GOD dealing with Man as --- Man deals with Man... "LAW, vengence, and eye for eye (individual DEATH) repayment (justice) for (AN individual's) LAWLESSNESS"... Containing hidden pictures of the NEW, through the
NATURAL approach... concerning the demands of JUSTICE...
The
New Covenant is: GOD dealing with Man as --- GOD deals with Man... "GRACE, forgiveness, and LOVE's (individual DEATH) repayment (justice) for (ALL individual) LAWLESSNESS... and is the FULFILLMENT of the OLD revealing that which was hidden, through the approach of
GRACE... concerning the demands of JUSTICE...
Part of the "picture" found in the observation of "killing" (in the OT) as ordered by the divine, is the COMPLETE ELIMINATION of that which TAINTS (matured/purposeful opposition to
YHVH) or ("CAN" TAINT = offspring of opposition to
YHVH)... The Children of
YHVH...
ALL things are to come into (SPIRITUAL) submission to
YHVH, and that which OPPOSES
YHVH, ...Within the submission to
YHVH, are all these ELIMINATED
BY that submission... (i.e. -- "killed") Not only the matured/purposed [adult] oppositions, ...but the offspring [children] of them [unintentioned oppositions to Him] as well... :dontknow:
...willieH :cloud9:
Hey Willie, you mentioned you haven't read through this thread completely . .. there was some discussion concerning the validity of the original author of the thread after which we sort of hijacked it . . .sorry.
Quote from: Pierac on April 27, 2010, 02:48:21 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 02:34:16 AM
Do the rules prevent a mod from making insulting comments to the posters?
It's not a insult if someone comes on a site questioning your beliefs then leaves offering no response! Creating conflict among seekers! Your were set up Paul!
I'm suprised at your level of post you did not see this!
Paul
I think that Michelle is just new to all this "Forum Stuff" and probably expected an email response. Her questions seem sincere to me and I bet she is from an ET background. You guys have much to offer her in terms of resources. But labeling her a "Troll" is a bit harsh!
In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
Quote from: michelle7mickey on April 23, 2010, 03:35:22 AM
Just wondering if anyone has a link about the genicide in the Bible? I don't seem to be able to find a reason why God said DO NOT KILL and then told them to KILL THEM ALL...including innocent babies & children...I always was told that He was purging the land and the blood line for Chirst or because those nations were the nations sacrificing children to pagan gods (satan), etc...but then God ends up justifying killing children, etc by genicide. And what about "love your enemies and do good to them". Anyways, just a question I've been thinking about...
This is from my book. Hope it helps:
Chapter 14
The Judgments of God
What are we to make of passages in the Bible that characterize God as extremely harsh and judgmental, to the point where the "punishments" appear to far outweigh the crimes? Examples include depictions of "Hell" as a place of torment, God's apparent use of war and genocide in the Old Testament to accomplish His purposes, the Genesis Flood, and so on. Is God really this harsh and judgmental, or were the writers of the Bible mistaken in ascribing these acts of judgment to God? In my view, God's judgments can be extremely harsh and, indeed, they often do outweigh the crimes. The writers of the Bible were correct in ascribing these judgments to God.
In order for human history to play itself out in a context of free will, God has given man the ability to make his own decisions, whether good or evil, for the most part, without coercion on God's part. If rewards and punishments were immediately handed out directly by God, or by some natural law of reciprocity, then man's moral and ethical and spiritual decisions could not possibly be freely made. If every evil act were directly followed by punishment, and every good deed immediately followed by a reward, then the human race would be just like lab rats, and all human actions would be little more than conditioned responses to direct stimuli. God wants man to become inherently good and do good things because he is good, not because he has no other choice. God wants us to learn how to love as God loves, with agape, self-sacrificing love. This would not be possible if rewards were immediately handed out after each act of love. You can see the dilemma that God faces. He wants to reward our good behavior, but at the same time He does not want rewards and punishments to be direct motivators of our actions. Thus, He has placed us into a world that is inherently unfair. The natural consequences of man's sinful behaviors include suffering, war, starvation, disease, and much unhappiness. Sometimes good behavior is rewarded, sometimes not. Sometimes the punishments far exceed the crimes. Sometimes good behavior is punished and bad behavior rewarded.
For centuries man has wondered why a God of love would allow so much evil and suffering to exist in this world. Well, now you know why. Ultimately good will be rewarded and evil punished, but, in most cases, rewards and punishments must be delayed and not directly and immediately connected with man's acts of obedience or disobedience. God does intervene in human history to affect the outcome of our lives, but He does it in very judicious ways. He intervenes at critical points in history in order to generally "steer" things in the right direction, and there are limits on just how often, or how directly, He intervenes. At one critical point in history He sent His Son, Jesus Christ, into the world to reveal more about God to us and to pay the ultimate price for all of our sins on the Cross of Calvary. At critical points in Old Testament history, God intervened to alter the natural course of human events.
Because God is the original "cause" of everything, we can say that all events in human history are, at the very least, indirectly caused by God. God is completely "sovereign" over His creation in the sense that He caused it all and has the ability to change the course of history at will. Because God brought the universe into being, knowing full well what the outcomes would be, and because He does not directly intervene to eliminate all sin, suffering, natural calamities, starvation, murder, violence, war, and all other forms of evil, then it could be correctly argued that it is God's will for both good and evil to exist. This being the case, then the only way God can be truly loving and just by nature is for the final outcome of human history to be a "good" one. This I believe to be the case.
Historical events must not be judged as "good" or "bad" in and of themselves. Ultimately, all events fit into God's plan of redemption, but in the short term, from our human perspective, these events may be assigned a purpose in our lives by God and the short term outcome may be "good" or "bad" for us depending on how we respond. Most of us have heard the saying in Romans that "And we know that in all things God works for the good of those who love him, who have been called according to his purpose." (Romans 8:28). Christians who respond correctly to these events will experience a "good" result in their lives, while those who respond incorrectly may experience an adverse result.
It is important to remember that most of the world's tragedies are not directly caused by God, but are a result of random natural processes and man's inhumanity to man. Let's examine, for example, a situation where a parent loses an infant child to an unexpected accident or illness. While it is true that God could have miraculously intervened into human history to prevent the death, we know from experience that He generally does not act in this way. Instead of directly causing or preventing human and natural events, God instead assigns purposes to these events as they occur. The parent who responds in the correct way to the death of the child may be drawn closer to God and family through the experience and be better enabled to comfort others when they also experience loss in their lives. If they respond in the incorrect way, their relationships with God and others may suffer. Sometimes, through acts of grace, God brings about a good result, even when we respond in the wrong way. Potentially there may be numerous short-term "good" or "bad" outcomes, depending on God's purposes and man's responses. In the long term, I believe all outcomes to be "good" because God is ultimately sovereign over His creation, and God is good.
Unlike the infant's death above, however, some catastrophic events, such as the Genesis Flood, were directly caused by the miraculous intervention of God. Can this type of intervention on God's part be justified, given God's loving and forgiving nature? Some may argue that the story was not an actual historical event, or that the details of the event were embellished as a result of the story being transmitted for centuries by oral transmission before being committed to writing. It may be correctly argued, even from the perspective of the literal inerrancy of the Scriptures, that the flood was localized to the Mesopotamian area, where most of the civilized world resided. Whether localized or not, the event was still a major catastrophe. If the Flood were not caused by God's direct intervention, but were only a natural occurrence which God used for His purposes, would that make God any less harsh than a God who directly caused the catastrophe? If God allowed the event to occur without intervening, He would be just as responsible for its occurrence. The important thing to remember is that, unlike natural occurrences, the Genesis Flood, although catastrophic to some, did serve a redemptive purpose. Mankind got a fresh start, and although sin would eventually regain its foothold on mankind in future generations, who knows how much worse things might have been had not God intervened? Although the general pattern of mankind at the time of the flood was evil, there were undoubtedly many "innocents" who died. If God is good, and fully intends to redeem all mankind, then we can assume that those who died in the Flood, both guilty and "innocent" alike, will eventually join with all creation some day in acknowledging Jesus as Savior and Lord.
Another example of this type of intervention on the part of God would be the apparent God-sanctioned genocide in Joshua. To view this in proper perspective it is important to understand that the harshest judgment that God can inflict upon sinful mankind is to stand back and allow history to take its natural course. Although God's judgments and corrections may seem harsh, they are less harsh than what naturally occurs on a daily basis in human history. When God steps in to alter this natural state of affairs, He is usually performing an act of redemption, as well as of judgment. According to the Bible narrative, after the Exodus, God ordered the Hebrew people to return to the land of Canaan, their ancestral home. The assumption was that they would have to take the land by force of arms. According to Deuteronomy 20:16-18, Moses instructed the Hebrews to completely destroy the people living in the cities of Canaan and not leave anything or any one alive, including the Hittites, Amorites, Canaanites, Perizzites, Hivites and Jebusites. According to Moses, this was the command of God. The purpose of the destruction of these peoples was to punish them for their detestable sins and immorality, and to prevent them from teaching the Hebrews to worship false gods and commit the same types of sins. According to the Book of Joshua, acts of genocide were carried out against some, but not all of those cities.
Proponents of the literal inerrancy of the Scriptures, although perhaps disturbed by the harshness of God's commands in this regard, have no problem accepting the narratives at face value. There are two different schools of thought, among those who hold a more liberal view of the Scriptures, regarding the issue of God-approved genocide in the Bible. The first view is that God never actually commanded the Hebrews to commit these acts of genocide, and that what we are reading in the Scriptures is a record of what the writers thought God wanted, and that they were mistaken. The idea is that God's revelations to us are progressive in nature, culminating in the teachings of Christ, who instructs us to love our enemies, turn the other cheek, and return good for evil. The idea is that the God we have come to know and understand is primarily a God of love, not judgment.
The other school of thought is that although the narratives may not be historically accurate in many of the details, the major thrust and intent of the narratives must be taken seriously. The Bible, although not verbally inerrant in every respect, is, nevertheless, the Holy Spirit-inspired record of man's "genuine" encounters with God. I, myself, subscribe to this view. It is hard for me to believe that the events of the Exodus and the subsequent resettlement of the Land of Canaan, which are so central to the major themes of salvation history, were carried out in direct opposition to the commands or intentions of God. If you believe that the Bible is man's "mostly mistaken" point of view regarding his encounters with God, I wonder how genuine those encounters could actually have been. You leave room for huge latitude with respect to the handling of Christian doctrine and pretty much give yourself license to believe whatever you want. Whenever the Scriptures teach something you don't like, it is easy for you to just dismiss the teaching in favor of other teachings which are more in harmony with your views. The Scriptures cease to be the God-inspired source of authoritative information about God. On the other hand, if you believe the Scriptures to be man's Holy Spirit-inspired record of genuine encounters with God, and if you believe that this record was believed and attested to by the larger community of faith in which the writers operated, then you have to take very seriously even the teachings which don't easily fit into your theological systems of thought.
If the Old Testament accounts of God-approved genocide during the conquest of Canaan don't fit very well into your views about God and the way He works, then maybe you need to reexamine those views. Far worse catastrophes have occurred in human history than the events surrounding the Exodus and the conquest of the land of Canaan. In addition to natural disasters which take the lives of hundreds of thousands of people every year, millions of people have been killed in acts of genocide throughout the history of mankind. Examples include constant warfare and genocide among various nations in Old Testament and New Testament times, the persecution and torture of Christians by non-Christians, the persecutions and torture of non-Christians by professing Christians of all ages, and in this century, the extermination of six million Jews by the Nazis, the extermination of tens of millions of innocent citizens of Communist Russia, China, Laos, Cambodia, Viet Nam, and the list goes on. In our current day, as we speak, millions of people in third world countries are dying from starvation, disease, war and genocide. And God does not intervene to prevent any of this from happening.
No matter how you look at it, God is directly or indirectly responsible for all that occurs in human history. If God were to intervene today and instantly destroy the millions of evil people in the world, would we angrily accuse Him of genocide, or would we rejoice and praise Him instead?
The truth is that God takes no pleasure in judging sin or in allowing it to occur without restraint in our present age. But in order for mankind to develop good qualities in a context of freewill, without direct coercion on God's part, He must for a period of time allow sin to run its full course. The judgments of God which take the form of direct intervention into our individual and corporate human lives, are not nearly as harsh as the judgments which we humans inflict upon ourselves.
On the cross of Calvary, Jesus, took upon Himself the penalty for the sins of all mankind and achieved total victory over sin and death. From God's perspective in eternity, the ultimate restoration of all humanity to right relationship with Himself, has already occurred. From our human perspective within the context of our limitations of space and time, we still have a long ways to go, and many life lessons must be learned along the way. The various forms of suffering and adversity which we experience in this present age, are important and necessary for our development, but cannot be even remotely compared with the wonderful things God has in store for all mankind one day.
Quote from: jabcat on April 27, 2010, 02:55:19 AM
I see your point Paul/Pierac, but I was personally just looking at it as much of a discussion amongst other members as much as "responding" to Michelle - whether she came back around or not. I have been watching her profile, and she was only on about 20 minutes and hasn't been back. Seems a few folks were interested in the topic, but I agree, it is one that OBVIOUSLY can bring dissension. :dontknow:
Michelle, you obviously have been back (good) and were just trying to understand a difficult, complicated topic. My apologies, for my part. Blessings, James.
Quote from: jfraysse on June 06, 2010, 04:37:14 AM
Quote from: Pierac on April 27, 2010, 02:48:21 AM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on April 27, 2010, 02:34:16 AM
Do the rules prevent a mod from making insulting comments to the posters?
It's not a insult if someone comes on a site questioning your beliefs then leaves offering no response! Creating conflict among seekers! Your were set up Paul!
I'm surprised at your level of post you did not see this!
Paul
I think that Michelle is just new to all this "Forum Stuff" and probably expected an email response. Her questions seem sincere to me and I bet she is from an ET background. You guys have much to offer her in terms of resources. But labeling her a "Troll" is a bit harsh!
In His Love, John :HeartThrob:
She was not labeled a Troll! But a
possible Troll due to the question and ZERO REPLY to such a question. By talking about God killing...innocent babies & children and then disappearing only leads to the conclusion... that the term POSSIBLE Troll would not out of line at the time and even now... if I did not know you knew her. Starting a topic about God killing Children and then leaving is not cool for a moderator to deal with in my book! Still only 3 post from her to date after all this? I guess you know her better than me! I can't read minds over the net and do not know everyone who comes here, my job is to keep the peace and weed out potential problems before they happen. Christians new to UR do not really need to read about about God killing...innocent babies & children only to find the author missing in action. :2c:
Not knowing her and her being missing in action even to this day! Sent up BIG red flags! I'm glad to know she is not one!
Paul
(Paul): I am truly hurt by your forum response! I never used a forum before this post and did not even know how they worked...until just a little while ago...I thought I was supposed to receive email responses to my post. I did not know I had to re-look it up on the forum to read the responses.. Now that I am learning how to read my replies I am NOT interested in posting again for quite some time! (Although thanks to ALL of you who gave KIND responses and heard my heart...but, I have found another Universalist forum which is loving and accepting of people's hard questions...)
I have just started on a new journey of faith a couple months ago with universalism and becasue they had such a good twist on the non-reality of Hell, I thought maybe they would on this too. I never said what I personally believed or did not believe. I just asked a question that someone asked me that got me thinking! that's all. Why am I not able to ask a simple question without being judged so harshly??
This is not an example of the Jesus I know and trust.
:HeartThrob:
As said...I did not know how to use a forum...I still barely do...I did not know I even posted in the wrong section as I've never even done this before! :dontknow:
John, never knew me... never judged me when I posted this on another universalist forum. He was loving and understanding of my question which caused me to put my time (which I don't have much of) and energy more concentrated over there! ....that is...whenever I can steal away some time from my crazy busy life....in which he never judged me for either (for not being able to spend much time on a forum, that is)...plus he even has given me tips on how to use a forum at that!... :Sparkletooth:I think Tentmakers would be greatly blessed to have John on as a Moderator as that is the type of spirit that attracts non-belivers and seeking Christians who have hard questions that they may be afraid to ask...People need to feel safe to ask the hard questions. ..and what if I WAS an unbeliever or a TROLL? Would Jesus treat me that way?? No! ...but the Pharisees would...
:cloud9: Please accept our apologies for any misunderstandings here. For a little background information, the mods were dealing with some spammers around that time, who were being banned one day, and logging back in the next day under a new name, and even doing the same thing several days running.
In general, asking the same strife engendering questions, or touching on topics that the owner of the board has requested that we mods deal with strictly and quickly so that we do not have the "food fights" of the past, lest the owner decide to shut the board down.
THIS is why you were viewed wrongly with suspicion as to your identity, and it in no way was anyone's desire to mistreat you in any way. Blessings to you....
:thumbsup:
I appreciate the response and accept the apoplogy. (Thanks for explaining what is meant by a "Troll" too.)
Just remember some people don't have a lot of time for forums and may not know how to use them...always leave room for grace here. Even if I was a troll it could have been said in better tones. That being said, it must be frustrating with the spammers and trying to know what's going on.
I think we in the world today living in AD don't realize that in the times of the old testament the Earth was an absolute cesspit of evil. Things such as child sacrifices were not a small thing hidden in some remote villages, but were an open thing and practiced by the nations. They were much closer to the spirit world in those days where sorcerers witchcraft, were reverenced and feared throughout the lands, the magicians even rivalled Gods miracles during the time of Moses, written in the bible.
Women and children in those days were property of men and were of little use. The nation of Israel was the greatest nation on the Earth and was known for its great wealth and power, its kings were renowned and its God was feared among the lands, many Kings such as the king of babylon confessed that the God of Israel was the one true God. But even though God was with Israel the people were still a stiff necked people, and so God gave them comandments such as stone the women caught in adultery. Jesus said the reason why Moses gave you that command was because of the hardness of your hearts. I interpret this to mean that stoning the women was Gods mercy upon the women, for the alternative would be to live with their hard hearted husbands, who because of their unfaithfullness, would probably treat them like a dog, they would also be set free to marry another wife if their wife is killed. But today because Gods spirit is upon the Earth who softens mens hearts, we no longer stone women who commit adultery, but instead are commanded to forgive them.
That's what I think
As a woman I don't think there is any mercy in being stoned either!...I think that Jesus was referring to divorcing their wife...not murdering their wife. I know there is differnt interprataions on that, but the later makes more sense when considering Jesus' love for people. I have to look deeper because our translation of scripture needs to line up with what Christ always taught on love..and stoning a woman does not sound like love...regardless of a bad marriage! lol...just my 2 cents :)
As for the genicide, I think it's possible that the Jews may have thought God told them to kill all the babies, woman & children...because it was in their culture to think in such ways...God's own commandents said DO NOT KILL and that was OLD TESTAMENT not NEW. I think we need to give room for the fact that the Scriptures, (although mostly God-inspired) were still written by man...and we need to give room for that too...it does not have to be a threat to what we believe to look at that angle...it can strengthen our faith in a loving God if we let it. (Gary Amirault often says this same thing in his newsletter: "Bible Matters".) Sometimes as Christains I think we always feel we have to justify such things (like genicide) because we don't understand it...ET Christains do it all the time in regards to Hell...same thing. Personally I do not have a for sure conclusion on what I believe on the genicide topic...but I think as Christians we need to keep an open mind that we don't have all the answers and maybe JUST MAYBE we are justiflying the sin of man that was recorded in the Bible...I think the fact that we never re-consider this is why we lose so many to atheism cause they look at these issues and take them very seriously...and Christians don't want to hear anything that puts a stumbling block in their belief systems so atheists have no one to really talk out thier issues with and usually get bitter against Christians...anyways, no hard feelings...just trying to share a different angle. hope you don't mind. :girlheart:
Hi Michelle. Paul said all scripture is inspired, which means "God-breathed". Where does it say most scripture is inspired? Thanks, James.
Quote from: jabcat on June 14, 2010, 09:30:35 PMHi Michelle. Paul said all scripture is inspired, which means "God-breathed". Where does it say most scripture is inspired? Thanks, James.
My opinion....
The originals are 100% perfect.
But AFAIK the originals no longer exist. Copying was not flawless.
Then we have translations. "Lost in translation" => Doctrinal reason, misunderstandings, impossibility to accurately translate.
Scriputre is fully God inspired. The question is this; Is the Bible we own Scripture for each and every verse?
Or is it perfection (God inspired Scripture) mixed with man-made errors?
I think we especially are missing
a lot in the OT due to (impossibility of) translation. One example: Names of people.
Generally I feel that Hebrew and Greek readers have more God inspiration in their Holy book.
I hope the above is within "No Bible bashing" forum guideline. If not... press teh big fat delete button :winkgrin:
:bigGrin:
I think we'll let all stand as is right now, with the request that we refocus the thread on seeking understanding/insight/revelation into what was the purpose, intent, outcome, and future reconciliation of the events. I.e., instead of were they, more so what do they mean and what can we spiritually glean from it now.
"For whatever was written in former days was written for our instruction, that through endurance and through the encouragement of the Scriptures we might have hope." Romans 15:4
Thanks, James.
:cloud9: I realize this is something that comes up a lot, and I can only say from my point of view, I never focused on that aspect of the OT.
I think that is because from the beginning He had me focusing on the names of people, places and things in there, the days when things happened, ect.
So because I was receiving so much LIFE and revelation of the person and plans of Him from the OT, that there was no doubt that it was all divinely inspired as written. Blessings....
thanks for giving a bit of understanding as to where i was coming from. It was not my intention for a harsh debate. i don't like that avenue at all! i'm happy the discussion was ended as i ddin;t feel to go on either...although thanks White Wing...that was more of what I was looking for. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Cardinal on June 14, 2010, 11:12:34 PMI think that is because from the beginning He had me focusing on the names of people
And for people who don't know Hebrew it means they are missing a lot of depth.
Even the 'encoded' UR message.
That depth and all those little 'word games' are lost in translation. God is not to blame for that. It's our peanut brains.
But people that don't speak Hebrew are missing that extra depth and info.
Unless ofcourse TM
TM members. They have read about the true meaning of names :winkgrin:
On the surface, I'd agree WW, but at the same time, the Pharisees and Saducees . .and scribes are great examples of those who knew the original languages and had the most in-depth understanding of the culture and how everything was to fit together, yet they were also the same who were the hardest to recognize Christ when he was standing right in front of them in the flesh.
I have read Scriptures for years, as I'm sure most everyone can say this, I've read Scripture for years and not understood half of what I've read. I think the Spiritual inspiration comes not from just what's been written, but I believe the Spirit inspires "as" it's READ.
Maybe that's the part we've been reading wrong. Rather than say men were inspired to write it . . . maybe it's a more accurate way to say men are inspired when reading it. Not because of the stories in and of themselves, but because of the Spirit in us that uncovers . . . reveals what's been written.
If the inspiration was all about what was written, then the words themselves would reveal the mysteries on their own merit. But it's actually the Spirit that is doing the revealing within us as we read what others wrote. There was a lot of corruption in many of the writers . . .David was one who had a husband who was one of his strongest warriors that put his life on the line for David, only to have David sleep with his wife and then give him a letter that brought about his own death . . .yet David wrote much of Psalms, an inspirational hymn book. So . . .is it the words on their own that inspire? Or is it the spirit in us that breathes on those words, creating life to rise up in us as a result?
If it's the latter, then should we not always pursue the spiritual side of the literal letter?
Michelle said
As a woman I don't think there is any mercy in being stoned either!
Your right Moses should have comanded them to use a bow and arrow :laughing7:
im taking the Mickey Michelle
I don't think I disagree with the main thrust of your bottom line Nathan, if it's that the scriptures must be Spirit-revealed to us. Otherwise, we don't "get it". Howevah... :bigGrin: - what Paul said was, all scripture is God-breathed (inspired). I take that to mean God specifically gave it to us, and further, that He will use it for His good purpose. Either for us to be veiled for a time, having little-to-no clue and serving as that "vessel of dishonor", OR, when it's His time to reveal it to us, to bring it to life by His Spirit in our spirit. :thumbsup: Also, I believe it's alive and powerful (able to cut/divide) - even if we don't at the time consciously "get it", it is still working a work - judging, preparing, planting itself for later use and affect - because "My Word will not return unto Me void".
Opening Post - "Do not kill, kill them all"... :HeartThrob:
Quote from: michelle7mickey on June 14, 2010, 09:23:36 PM
As a woman I don't think there is any mercy in being stoned either!...I think that Jesus was referring to divorcing their wife...not murdering their wife. I know there is differnt interprataions on that, but the later makes more sense when considering Jesus' love for people. I have to look deeper because our translation of scripture needs to line up with what Christ always taught on love..and stoning a woman does not sound like love...regardless of a bad marriage! lol...just my 2 cents :)
As for the genicide, I think it's possible that the Jews may have thought God told them to kill all the babies, woman & children...because it was in their culture to think in such ways...God's own commandents said DO NOT KILL and that was OLD TESTAMENT not NEW. I think we need to give room for the fact that the Scriptures, (although mostly God-inspired) were still written by man...and we need to give room for that too...it does not have to be a threat to what we believe to look at that angle...it can strengthen our faith in a loving God if we let it. (Gary Amirault often says this same thing in his newsletter: "Bible Matters".) Sometimes as Christains I think we always feel we have to justify such things (like genicide) because we don't understand it...ET Christains do it all the time in regards to Hell...same thing. Personally I do not have a for sure conclusion on what I believe on the genicide topic...but I think as Christians we need to keep an open mind that we don't have all the answers and maybe JUST MAYBE we are justiflying the sin of man that was recorded in the Bible...I think the fact that we never re-consider this is why we lose so many to atheism cause they look at these issues and take them very seriously...and Christians don't want to hear anything that puts a stumbling block in their belief systems so atheists have no one to really talk out thier issues with and usually get bitter against Christians...anyways, no hard feelings...just trying to share a different angle. hope you don't mind. :girlheart:
Welcome to your own debate...
CLV version Ecc 3:10
I see the experience that Elohim (GOD) gives To the sons of humanity to humble them by it. 11 He has made everything fitting in its season; However, He has put obscurity in their heart So that the man may not find out His work, That which the One, Elohim (GOD), does from the beginning to the terminus."
What experience did he see ???
CLV Ecc 1:13 I applied my heart to inquiring and exploring by wisdom concerning all that is done under the heavens: it is an experience of evil Elohim (GOD) has given to the sons of humanity to humble them by it.
Read your scripture Michelle... No less that six times... Paul tells you...
All is of GOD! Do you believe him? And also was Solomon a fool to make such comments in Ecc 1:13?
Personally, I think not!
Paul
I'm temporarily locking this thread until we (mods) sort some things out.