Last year I began to study whether a person will get an opportunity after their death to believe on Christ. That study has led eventually to this understanding which is just very basic now of ultimate reconciliation, universalism, salvation for all... I don't know what I want to call it yet. I remember as a young Christian when reading Romans 5 that Adam caused the fall of all humanity but Christ will only save some, that this just doesn't sound right, but that was how it was always preached and so I went along. So glad Father has led me and is leading all to this beautiful doctrine.
I'm located in Maine, USA.
Welcome!!May the Lord cause His face to shine upon you....as you move toward intimacy with Him!!!!
Great, welcome here. James.
Welcome, NJ!
These folks have taught me so much.
I feel love by many people here that I have not even met.
The fellowship is sweet.
God bless your search for Truth!
PS I have friends who live near Caribou, Maine.
They really don't like all the snow and long winter.
I always thought I would like Maine, though.
Welcome NJ! :HeartThrob:
Welcome! I think you are finding your way (in reality, God is drawing (we like to call it "dragging") you) deeper into the Kingdom of Heaven. As far as I'm concerned, this (Tentmaker) is the best site [ :2c:] on the www! :friendstu:
Welcome to the great adventure! You will not be disappointed. God really is that good.
This all sounds great. I like the drawing/dragging. I feel like that is how it has happened to me, God dragging me to where He wants me to be-further into His boundless love and truth.
Caribou is way up north. I am in Litchfield, near Lewiston.
Thanks for the welcomes everyone.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on May 11, 2013, 02:49:04 AM
Welcome! I think you are finding your way (in reality, God is drawing (we like to call it "dragging") you) deeper into the Kingdom of Heaven. As far as I'm concerned, this (Tentmaker) is the best site [ :2c:] on the www! :friendstu:
AMEN! :thumbsup:
Romans 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
It's sad how so many people can't see the plain truth in this passage. Condemnation for ALL, and justification for ALL. THE MANY were made sinners, but THE MANY will be made righteous. I've seen commentaries that say just say that all people will have the opportunity to be justified, and the many will have the opportunity to be made righteous, but it says nothing about having the opportunity to make the right choice here. I'm glad you have seen the light, brother! :Peace2:
Quote from: Warhawk17 on May 17, 2013, 10:03:19 AM
Romans 18 Consequently, just as one trespass resulted in condemnation for all people, so also one righteous act resulted in justification and life for all people. 19 For just as through the disobedience of the one man the many were made sinners, so also through the obedience of the one man the many will be made righteous.
It's sad how so many people can't see the plain truth in this passage. Condemnation for ALL, and justification for ALL. THE MANY were made sinners, but THE MANY will be made righteous. I've seen commentaries that say just say that all people will have the opportunity to be justified, and the many will have the opportunity to be made righteous, but it says nothing about having the opportunity to make the right choice here. I'm glad you have seen the light, brother! :Peace2:
This is so awesome! Thanks for sharing it. :thumbsup:
Romans 5 and 1 Cor.15 seems to be the main passages that clearly show that as many as are dead are the same that will be made alive. I was reading Romans chapters 9-11 which were always hard for me to swallow, but now when I come to Rm.11:32, "God has concluded all in unbelief, that He may have mercy upon all.", it seems so clear in the bigger picture, He will have mercy on everyone.
It seems that most Christians are afraid to believe that God is this great, this merciful, that salvation through grace is extended to all and will reach all eventually.
I was just looking at Romans 11 and wow, that is one of the most powerful scriptures in the NT. Certainly worthy of more deep study.
Yes, IMO Romans 9 - 11 are really impossible to sort out until one comes to understand the ultimate universal reconciliation and restoration of all things as is 1 Cor 15.
I agree, it all seems so much clearer now, from the hard to understand passages to all the why questions one might ask God. The big picture seems to be coming into clearer focus. Not that I understand it all by any means, but that our Father is loving and powerful enough to ensure the best possible outcome for all for ever.
Quote from: NJ on May 30, 2013, 11:32:14 PM
I agree, it all seems so much clearer now, from the hard to understand passages to all the why questions one might ask God. The big picture seems to be coming into clearer focus. Not that I understand it all by any means, but that our Father is loving and powerful enough to ensure the best possible outcome for all for ever.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Quote from: NJ on May 30, 2013, 11:32:14 PM
I agree, it all seems so much clearer now, from the hard to understand passages to all the why questions one might ask God. The big picture seems to be coming into clearer focus. Not that I understand it all by any means, but that our Father is loving and powerful enough to ensure the best possible outcome for all for ever.
Yes, and isn t it sad that such a faith is considered heretical by so many...... but as we faithfully declare the "whole counsel of God" many will believe in secret, and some will receive openly the victorious gospel of Jesus :o)
In line with this thought, I have often thought to myself that UR Makes sense. Therefore I have become aware that I no longer have to say things like, "Oh well, that's just one of those things we won't understand until we get to heaven." Or, "Well God's wisdom is greater than ours, so we cannot use human logic to figure this out." While there is some truth in these saying's, there is so much more that all fits into place in God's plan for the creation than before when I believed in ET. (However, I am certainly not saying that I understand all things - far from it.) These sayings are just a cop-out ET's use, because they know deep down that their doctrine does not make sense. :doh:
That is the absolute truth.
Salvation for all seems so clear now. "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." How much clearer can it be. There are no conditions or buts. All who are dead will be made alive.
Thing is though, those who believe in hell agree that everyone will be made alive but they don't believe all will be saved. They say it will be too late when unbelievers are resurrected, they will be judged and sent to hell.
CHB
But there is no Hell.
Quote from: Lazarus Short on June 06, 2013, 05:00:01 AM
But there is no Hell.
We know that but getting them to understand there is no hell is another thing.
There are so many verses that allude to UR. But when you were raised to believe in a hell that is full of sinners who are being tortured day and night, it's harder to see the light. :2c:
When Paul says that "...all will be made alive in Christ" I don't think it can mean made alive to suffer "hell", Paul clearly states that before we are in Christ we are dead in trespasses and sin. Death is a state outside of Christ while life is a state inside Christ.
I don't believe in Hell which is a poor translation, but I do believe in a place or state in which those who have yet to believe Christ go. I believe it is a place of torment, not in literal flames, but tormented over one's life of sin and rejection of perfect love and grace offered by Christ. Whether that be Hades, Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire I believe it is real and is used by God to bring one and all to repentance and faith in Christ.
It is interesting that "fire" gr. pur translates over to pure, purify,... and that is how we see fire used in scripture, 1 Pt.1:7 fire tests one's faith, 1 Cr.3 fire tries our works, one is saved yet so as by fire.
Quote from: NJ on June 07, 2013, 05:11:16 PM
When Paul says that "...all will be made alive in Christ" I don't think it can mean made alive to suffer "hell", Paul clearly states that before we are in Christ we are dead in trespasses and sin. Death is a state outside of Christ while life is a state inside Christ.
I don't believe in Hell which is a poor translation, but I do believe in a place or state in which those who have yet to believe Christ go. I believe it is a place of torment, not in literal flames, but tormented over one's life of sin and rejection of perfect love and grace offered by Christ. Whether that be Hades, Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire I believe it is real and is used by God to bring one and all to repentance and faith in Christ.
It is interesting that "fire" gr. pur translates over to pure, purify,... and that is how we see fire used in scripture, 1 Pt.1:7 fire tests one's faith, 1 Cr.3 fire tries our works, one is saved yet so as by fire.
Excellent, well said. :thumbsup:
One question, though - I'm not sure I know what you mean here: " 'fire' gr. pur translates over to pure, purify"
What is the "gr."? and "pur"?
Hello NJ,
The answer to your question is, yes, everyone will have a chance. This is what the resurrection periods are for:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)Please be sure to read all of the hyperlinked articles, too.
I hope this helps.
Ken
(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)
Quote from: NJ on May 10, 2013, 06:17:38 PM
Last year I began to study whether a person will get an opportunity after their death to believe on Christ. That study has led eventually to this understanding which is just very basic now of ultimate reconciliation, universalism, salvation for all... I don't know what I want to call it yet. I remember as a young Christian when reading Romans 5 that Adam caused the fall of all humanity but Christ will only save some, that this just doesn't sound right, but that was how it was always preached and so I went along. So glad Father has led me and is leading all to this beautiful doctrine.
I'm located in Maine, USA.
Fire translated from the greek "pur" through the Latin means pure/purify. This is how we see it used in 1 Pt.1:7 and 1 Cr.3:13. My point is that I view the fire of Hades as more purgatorial not retributive.
IMO and I hav yet to be shown differently, there is no reference to a fire in HAdes- which is Greek for Sheol. The only place I see fire mentioned is gehenna and the lake of fire. Again, imo, they are not the same as Sheol.
Hello NJ,
Yes, all will be saved. But what most don't understand is the how and when (especially when it comes to people that we would judge as deserving of "hell"). Perhaps this article and the hyperlinked word/articles can help you understand this subject better:
http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm (http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm)
Best wishes on your journey.
Ken
I would be much more interested in your opinion, Ken, if you have one- rather than being continually referred to ELMs teachings some of which I have read, and some of which I think are great( and some of which I dasagree with). Do you believe there is a "Hell" or a "Hades". Do you believe Sheol and Hades or Hell are the same? What do you think about the lake of fire? Is it HELL :o) You see, I don't know what you think- other than that you seem to think there is one recourse to all dilemas- I kno- go read Ernest l Martins teachings ;o)
In Luke 16 the rich man awoke in Hades and was tormented in the flame. I don't think it is a literal fire but a metaphor for testing. I find it interesting that he asks specifically for Lazarus and for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Why didn't he ask for a bucket of water, why for his tongue and not his whole body? Could it be that his tongue was what was being purified or dealt with in Hades? Maybe his tongue (a critical spirit, a judgmental attitude) had been offensive towards Lazarus, the poor, the Gentiles and that was what was being dealt with. I don't know, I just find it interesting and would like to hear your thoughts.
Quote from: NJ on July 10, 2013, 11:18:38 PM
In Luke 16 the rich man awoke in Hades and was tormented in the flame. I don't think it is a literal fire but a metaphor for testing. I find it interesting that he asks specifically for Lazarus and for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Why didn't he ask for a bucket of water, why for his tongue and not his whole body? Could it be that his tongue was what was being purified or dealt with in Hades? Maybe his tongue (a critical spirit, a judgmental attitude) had been offensive towards Lazarus, the poor, the Gentiles and that was what was being dealt with. I don't know, I just find it interesting and would like to hear your thoughts.
NJ you make a good point here. I think we all agree here that the fire is for purification not torture.
Quote from: NJ on July 10, 2013, 11:18:38 PM
In Luke 16 the rich man awoke in Hades and was tormented in the flame. I don't think it is a literal fire but a metaphor for testing. I find it interesting that he asks specifically for Lazarus and for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Why didn't he ask for a bucket of water, why for his tongue and not his whole body? Could it be that his tongue was what was being purified or dealt with in Hades? Maybe his tongue (a critical spirit, a judgmental attitude) had been offensive towards Lazarus, the poor, the Gentiles and that was what was being dealt with. I don't know, I just find it interesting and would like to hear your thoughts.
I think you are right on target. It does not make any sense if taken literally. If someone told me a story like this now-a-days, I would automatically assume they were either telling it as a metaphor, a parable, or a lie. Well this bible story is definitely not a lie. So that leaves metaphor and parable. You'd have to be pretty dumb or blinded to think it is a true, literal story about a man in a real hell. :sigh: