Just beginning to understand.

[jbertonbounds]

When Paul says that "...all will be made alive in Christ" I don't think it can mean made alive to suffer "hell", Paul clearly states that before we are in Christ we are dead in trespasses and sin. Death is a state outside of Christ while life is a state inside Christ.

I don't believe in Hell which is a poor translation, but I do believe in a place or state in which those who have yet to believe Christ go. I believe it is a place of torment, not in literal flames, but tormented over one's life of sin and rejection of perfect love and grace offered by Christ. Whether that be Hades, Gehenna, or the Lake of Fire I believe it is real and is used by God to bring one and all to repentance and faith in Christ.

It is interesting that "fire" gr. pur translates over to pure, purify,... and that is how we see fire used in scripture, 1 Pt.1:7 fire tests one's faith, 1 Cr.3 fire tries our works, one is saved yet so as by fire.

Excellent, well said.   :thumbsup:

One question, though - I'm not sure I know what you mean here: " 'fire' gr. pur translates over to pure, purify"
What is the "gr."? and "pur"?

[Ken]

Hello NJ,

The answer to your question is, yes, everyone will have a chance. This is what the resurrection periods are for:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Please be sure to read all of the hyperlinked articles, too.

I hope this helps.

Ken

(http://ernestlmartin.com/images/kogpng.png)

Last year I began to study whether a person will get an opportunity after their death to believe on Christ. That study has led eventually to this understanding which is just very basic now of ultimate reconciliation, universalism, salvation for all... I don't know what I want to call it yet. I remember as a young Christian when reading Romans 5 that Adam caused the fall of all humanity but Christ will only save some, that this just doesn't sound right, but that was how it was always preached and so I went along. So glad Father has led me and is leading all to this beautiful doctrine.

I'm located in Maine, USA.

[NJ]

Fire translated from the greek "pur" through the Latin means pure/purify. This is how we see it used in 1 Pt.1:7 and 1 Cr.3:13. My point is that I view the fire of Hades as more purgatorial not retributive.

[eaglesway]

IMO and I hav yet to be shown differently, there is no reference to a fire in HAdes- which is Greek for Sheol. The only place I see fire mentioned is gehenna and the lake of fire. Again, imo, they are not the same as Sheol.

[Ken]

Hello NJ,

Yes, all will be saved. But what most don't understand is the how and when (especially when it comes to people that we would judge as deserving of "hell"). Perhaps this article and the hyperlinked word/articles can help you understand this subject better:

http://ernestlmartin.com/kingdomofgod-firstresurrection.htm

Best wishes on your journey.

Ken

[eaglesway]

I would be much more interested in your opinion, Ken, if you have one- rather than being continually referred to ELMs teachings some of which I have read, and some of which I think are great( and some of which I dasagree with). Do you believe there is a "Hell" or a "Hades". Do you believe Sheol and Hades or Hell are the same? What do you think about the lake of fire? Is it HELL :o) You see, I don't know what you think- other than that you seem to think there is one recourse to all dilemas-  I kno- go read Ernest l Martins teachings ;o)

[NJ]

In Luke 16 the rich man awoke in Hades and was tormented in the flame. I don't think it is a literal fire but a metaphor for testing. I find it interesting that he asks specifically for Lazarus and for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Why didn't he ask for a bucket of water, why for his tongue and not his whole body? Could it be that his tongue was what was being purified or dealt with in Hades? Maybe his tongue (a critical spirit, a judgmental attitude) had been offensive towards Lazarus, the poor, the Gentiles and that was what was being dealt with. I don't know, I just find it interesting and would like to hear your thoughts.

[mplsfitter539]

In Luke 16 the rich man awoke in Hades and was tormented in the flame. I don't think it is a literal fire but a metaphor for testing. I find it interesting that he asks specifically for Lazarus and for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Why didn't he ask for a bucket of water, why for his tongue and not his whole body? Could it be that his tongue was what was being purified or dealt with in Hades? Maybe his tongue (a critical spirit, a judgmental attitude) had been offensive towards Lazarus, the poor, the Gentiles and that was what was being dealt with. I don't know, I just find it interesting and would like to hear your thoughts.

NJ you make a good point here. I think we all agree here that the fire is for purification not torture.

[jbertonbounds]

In Luke 16 the rich man awoke in Hades and was tormented in the flame. I don't think it is a literal fire but a metaphor for testing. I find it interesting that he asks specifically for Lazarus and for a drop of water to cool his tongue. Why didn't he ask for a bucket of water, why for his tongue and not his whole body? Could it be that his tongue was what was being purified or dealt with in Hades? Maybe his tongue (a critical spirit, a judgmental attitude) had been offensive towards Lazarus, the poor, the Gentiles and that was what was being dealt with. I don't know, I just find it interesting and would like to hear your thoughts.

I think you are right on target.  It does not make any sense if taken literally.  If someone told me a story like this now-a-days, I would automatically assume they were either telling it as a metaphor, a parable, or a lie.  Well this bible story is definitely not a lie.  So that leaves metaphor and parable.  You'd have to be pretty dumb or blinded to think it is a true, literal story about a man in a real hell. :sigh: