John 15 questions

[Lawrence]

Can someone point me to a good explanation of John 15, specifically dealing with who are.
the branches that are cut off and what happens to them? I believe Jesus is using allegory about the things to soon happen. Some friends are having a discussion with me and they believe cut off branches are to be "destroyed". I don't believe our Abba father will "destroy" his sons or daughters.

Thanks, Lawrence

[FineLinen]

Dear Lawrence: welcome to our Tent.

"Perishing"

Whenever you see Jesus use a word such as "perish" or "destroy," the original word is "apollumi." The Greek word "apollumi" means to "to lose, or to be lost." It is the same word Jesus used when He said

"I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel" (Matthew 15:24).

and

"Does he not leave the ninety-nine in the open country and go after the lost sheep until he finds it? And when he finds it, he joyfully puts it on his shoulders and goes home. Then he calls his friends and neighbors together and says, "Rejoice with me; I have found my lost sheep"" (Luke 15:4-7).

This word, "apollumi," is used to describe a sheep which was lost and then was found and restored. And Christ uses this same exact word in the following verse:

"Do not fear those who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, fear the One who can destroy both soul and body in hell" (Matthew 10:28-29). (The word translated as "Hell" in this verse is actually Gehenna, the city dump outside of Jerusalem)

The original word for "destroy" there is "apollumi" which means "to lose or be lost." This verse is not speaking of an eternal annihilation of a soul, but of a temporary losing of the soul, just like the "lost" sheep that was later found. It is the same with all the times you see Jesus speaking of someone "perishing." Such as in John 3:16:

For God so loved the world that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.

A better translation would be "whoever believes in Him should not be lost." We are all lost until God finds us. Those who die yet unbelieving will experience further "apollumi," or being "lost" in the lake of fire, which is the second death. But God has promised to destroy all death once and for all and grant belief to all at the consummation of the ages.

If apollumi or apollumi meant destruction according to the traditional definition by those who believe in eternal torment or annihilation, then Jesus is lost forever:

"But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the multitudes that they should ask for Barabbas and DESTROY (apollumi) Jesus." Matt. 27:20

So then, will you hold to the "traditional" view which makes the word of God of no effect? Or will you have the courage to go against the traditional hell-fire or annihilation view which denigrates the precious victory Jesus bought through conquering death on the Cross for all mankind?

Those who are "lost" or "perished," are like the lost sheep. The lost sheep was perished, but the shepherd sought it out and restored it. We are all like the lost sheep before God finds us. Even now we are. We are all "apollumi", or "lost and perished" as the lost sheep was. We are separated and alienated from God. But the lost sheep did not stay that way. And neither does anyone else. The Good Shepherd does not stop looking until He has found the last one.

A careful read of the Parable of the Lost Sheep makes it very plain that for Jesus, ninety nine is NOT ENOUGH!

Ninety Nine is Not Enough!

A full treatment of the teaching of Annihilation (Conditional Mortality) may be found at:

Eternal Death: One Step out of Hell One Step Short of Glory

by Gary Amirault

[FineLinen]

The Destruction Of The Wicked

https://www.goodnewsaboutgod.com/studies/wicked2.htm

Everlasting Destruction

http://www.mercyuponall.org/2016/11/22/marvin-r-vincent-note-on-eternal-destruction-olethron-aionion/

[Lawrence]

Hi FineLinen,

Thank you for your quick response. There's so much there and I have been studying it since yesterday. The purpose is that my friends and family and anyone that Father would use me to help will see a new and bright light in their lives. The way so many of them think, and how are used to think, keeps you in fear and darkness. It is indeed a strange message to follow thinking that father God is unwilling or unable to deliver all of us from ourselves.

[Phoebes Daughter]

Thank you for this thread - the reasoning is crystal clear - surely.

[FineLinen]

Hi FineLinen,

Thank you for your quick response. There's so much there and I have been studying it since yesterday. The purpose is that my friends and family and anyone that Father would use me to help will see a new and bright light in their lives. The way so many of them think, and how are used to think, keeps you in fear and darkness. It is indeed a strange message to follow thinking that father God is unwilling or unable to deliver all of us from ourselves.

Hi again Lawrence. We may be the only light in the circle of those around us. We can only sow His seed and expect Him to water and shine upon it. This journey is one of stages, ultimately ending in Him. He will deliver us from ourselves and every thing that mars His Image in our lives, that I know.

We are glad you have joined us here in the Tent. Enjoy the journey.

[rosered]

 

  Thanks be to God    ,
  I love the answers
and those trying to reason with them!
  Welcome Lawrence
   and blessings 
FL   , it is good to have you back at the Tent !! 

Yes Phoebes daughter,  let us reason together !!   
Where two or 3 are gathered in My name , Jesus said I am in the midst !   

  I just wanted to share   in the comforting message of John 15 .
  Having troubles in the world is everyone's plight   right now . I believe it always has been  for some of these times now and is even escalating  some .
God is exposing the evil   to the Light .
Truth will always prevail in the end , Yay!    we can always thank God for that and  for the  faith to just trust in Him all the more .

 
I believe  that  when Jesus  said in the last Church and days , being His feet , those are   the completing the   BODY and image of the SON ,   that He would rather we be hot or cold  , means on fire for Him or  just dead like those broken off branches    from the VINE ...as useless during the times of trouble , because hearts fail us during persecution and only faith in Him  , please the Father and it is carrying enough Holy Spirit oil to survive    the sleeping of sorrows . as we are awakened to these troublesome times , there   has always been troublesome times in the world  , but never have we had to focus on them  because  they have been hidden and underlying deeds , but Jesus promises to expose them by the LIGHT OF HIS COMING , that does wake many up out of sleep ...

Because HE is  the all source of power of LIFE in the Spirit   and it seems the lukewarm  state  is the  standard of rejection 

to be cut off , there will be no  lukewarm  in the last days , only the dead and the living  , Which we know by the scriptures   HE IS THE LORD OF BOTH as the last shall be first and the first shall be last ..   

  many nations  it seems want to erect an image of the one world order  and we know this is the  false image , Why /, because it says in the scriptures   two things we must   trust in    completely 
and that is  , in the last days  if it were possible even the very elect would be deceived   !! 
  that is a harrowing thought  , but consider this  also

  Jesus says I did not come to bring peace but a SWORD  , and divisions ...Luke 12 : 49-59

Not Peace but Division
49 "I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50 But I have a baptism to undergo, and what constraint I am under until it is completed! 51 Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52 From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53 They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."

Interpreting the Times
54 He said to the crowd: "When you see a cloud rising in the west, immediately you say, 'It's going to rain,' and it does. 55 And when the south wind blows, you say, 'It's going to be hot,' and it is. 56 Hypocrites! You know how to interpret the appearance of the earth and the sky. How is it that you don't know how to interpret this present time?

57 "Why don't you judge for yourselves what is right? 58 As you are going with your adversary to the magistrate, try hard to be reconciled on the way, or your adversary may drag you off to the judge, and the judge turn you over to the officer, and the officer throw you into prison. 59 I tell you, you will not get out until you have paid the last penny."
 

GOD is a just God  , and He also  loves  mercy  , but justice  has to be served  as well

  I believe all forms of evil  will   come to and end  , because these is the days of vengeance being fulfilled Luke 21 .

What anyone sees in their days   will come to the place where the dead will hear HIS VOICE AND LIVE ...   


We just have to discern   what is right and  know HIS VOICE ... JESUS IS MAKING those  alive for the LIVING GOD

back from the dead .
I recall  many scriptures speaking of the sleep of Adam , and many die in the sleep of Adam  , but will be made alive in CHRIST

1 COR 15;22  MSG   There is a nice symmetry in this: Death initially came by a man, and resurrection from death came by a man. Everybody dies in Adam; everybody comes alive in Christ. But we have to wait our turn: Christ is first, then those with him at his Coming, the grand consummation when, after crushing the opposition, he hands over his kingdom to God the Father. He won't let up until the last enemy is down—and the very last enemy is death! As the psalmist said, "He laid them low, one and all; he walked all over them." When Scripture says that "he walked all over them," it's obvious that he couldn't at the same time be walked on. When everything and everyone is finally under God's rule, the Son will step down, taking his place with everyone else, showing that God's rule is absolutely comprehensive—a perfect ending!

I for one believe that we have made idols of the WORD OF GOD  and have limited the communications and speech though the traditions of men  , not having a clear thought of our own , but following  after those men whom have  died in the same manner all do  , under the   guise of the incomplete  image and only given a portion , not the WHOLE

   THE WHOLE is reserved for the last DAY  and it is the DAY OF THE LORD   to take death and destroy it forever by HIS LIFE
  that cannot ever be destroyed  and the hidden  sons of God will be  revealed at long last   and set free
   this earthly dwellings is a trap   and snare laid out for the evil to be caught in , once we are set free in the Spirit of Life by the Word of  Life , we will  be praising GOD for the JOY OF eternity   that has no end in sight .

The hidden part  of the WHOLE  will all be   HOLY and pure ,   the inner man of the heart   that has been renewed day by day

and there will be LIGHT and it WILL BE BRIGHTER THAN THE NOON DAY SON .and in HIM  there is no darkness at all ..

  HIS  TESTIMONY IS THE  SPIRIT OF PROPHECY TO BE FULFILLED  in us all and come  to separate the darkness in us and swallow it up in VICTORY  by the Light of His coming ..

I believe that the fear is temporary and the LOVE  LIVES FOREVER MORE as it always has been . and why did we doubt HIM ??

Even for that moment  when death was our enemy ? 
I believe when the trial that comes upon the whole world   Rev 3 ,  When the head was set in place the whole body of believers were being formed as the feet are  to preach the gospel  of the good news of the gospel  even in troublesome times

OH just to  be His feet they are the polished brass refined in the fire of GODS consuming jealousy as the many voices proclaim HIS LIVING TESTIMONY ... HE WILL HAVE IT ALL IN THE END   Rev 1 John's Vision on Patmos
...14The hair of His head was white like wool, as white as snow, and His eyes were like a blazing fire.

15His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters. 16He held in His right hand seven stars, and a sharp double-edged sword came from His mouth. His face was like the sun shining at its brightest.

As this earth is the  furnace of affliction  , many verses pertain to this  destroying the IMAGE OF BABYLON  , melting off the dross   , and looking for yourself  in the scriptures by praying for answers  to the Holy Spirit is helpful  to believe also .


Isaiah 48 , as those first  shall become the last to enter in and find rest for their souls  till God be all in all ........ 

Babylon is falling  there is no doubt about that .     :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Lawrence]

Hi Rosered, wow, you sure have the gift of Godly gospel gab :laugh: thanks for all you shared.

I'm so grateful that our father did not leave me in dead doctrines of men. Looking back at junk I used to believe gives me a sick feeling. I was so wrong. What is more painful is to be around people that say they love God but despise the real truth. I share the light I have but it is always rejected because of traditional beliefs.  :sigh: All my relationships with people are eventually stressed when I touch one of the idols of mainstream Christianity. And, I believe there are many. Many idols that is. I grieve that I cannot reach my friends and acquaintances with the true gospel of the love of God. Then I'm encouraged by remembering that spirit of truth is working in this world. Hallelujah.

You said, "the dead will hear his voice..." Yes, I would like to see walking dead hear his voice and rejoice with us who have believed and know the truth.

The spirit confirms in us,

"Your future is bright and filled with a living hope that will never fade away. As you listen to me, my beloved child, you will grow in wisdom and your heart will be drawn into understanding, which will empower you to make right decisions."
Proverbs 23

[rosered]

 

  Sure do Lawrence ,
I try not to say too much   ,and than when I do   , it just flows on out  brother .... :laughing7:

I believe  it is allegory   as well , 
Jesus said to those  nicodemus's   of even our modern days as it applies , if you cannot believe the truth of earthly stuff and handle them  correctly , how will you believe  of heavenly/or spiritual   truth , Jesus told  us all we have to be born again and from above , this comes by the Holy Spirit same as Jesus come as our wonderful example to HELP us get it .


John 3 ...11Truly, truly, I tell you, we speak of what we know, and we testify to what we have seen, and yet you people do not accept our testimony.


12If I have told you about earthly things and you do not believe, how will you believe if I tell you about heavenly things?


13No one has ascended into heaven except the One who descended from heaven—the Son of Man.

I find it awesome that we have the son of man and  the son of God  in one , we have to be in that same  pattern and it seems we have bore the corruptible image  as well as the incorruptible image , as hidden  , but Jesus  showed this openly on the cross ,  this is also how we have to  follow after and take up our cross  also  to openly show the  incorruptible image though forgiveness of sins and mercy  , same as GOD has expressed   His heart though Jesus Christ ... all names as hidden meanings and I believe   that there  are   many , many clues  in the hidden name meanings that are very helpful  in understanding even further  truths .
like the name nicodemus means 
funny how that compares to the Laodicean church meaning luke warm and the traditions held of man started by the tribes of Israel  ,  and having not changed much over the course of many generations    and over the course of time  , still stuck ,  as the veil has not been lifted  by GOD yet till the end , they were first and shall come in last .. , I believe it is to destroy Babylon  totally and that has been the mixing and division   of mans carnal thinking /death and also spiritual thinking  which is Life ..


 
From the Greek name Νικοδημος (Nikodemos) meaning "victory of the people", derived from Greek νικη (nike) meaning "victory" and δημος (demos) meaning "the people". This is the name of a character in the New Testament who helps Joseph of Arimathea entomb Jesus.


Strong's G2993 - Laodikeia
Λαοδίκεια
Transliteration

Laodikeia

Pronunciation

lä-o-dē'-kā-ä (Key)


Part of Speech

proper locative noun
Root Word (Etymology)

From a compound of λαός (G2992) and δίκη (G1349)

TDNT Reference

n/a

Outline of Biblical Usage
Laodicea = "justice of the people"

a city of Phrygia, situated on the river Lycus not far from Colosse. It was destroyed by an earthquake in 66 A.D. and rebuilt by Marcus Aurelius. It was the seat of the Christian church.

  Some one said I write small books here lol    , I have to laugh , because it is true !!

there is just so much once the Holy Spirit opens the door   for us all to learn of Him
  we are seeking clarity and a crystal clear truth  and life in Christ

This would apply for all of mankind and many  will come to the same conclusion in the end , because it is not Gods will that any should perish , but come  to repentance  , and that is a change of mind , from death to Life ...   

   for me the simple and pure it is the easiest  to grasp   a hold of and to build upon as we come as little children   they are innocent and  willing to learn  and believe  what the Holy Spirit is saying

  no need that any man teach you the Christ or anointing :dsunny: :HeartThrob: in you will see you though till the end !! 


here are some more of the scriptures that testify or witness of these things to help us believe in the Truth and way and the Holy Life  forever more ... without sin and death to ever  deal with again . as preparing us  to meet Him ...


1 John 2 ;27 Continue in Him
...26I have written these things to you about those who are trying to deceive you. 27And as for you, the anointing you received from Him remains in you, and you do not need anyone to teach you. But just as His TRUE and genuine anointing teaches you about all things, so remain in Him as you have been taught.

28And now, little children, remain in Christ, so that when He appears, we may be confident and unashamed before Him at His coming....


Proverbs 28:5
Evil men do not understand justice, but those who seek the LORD comprehend fully.

Jeremiah 31:34
No longer will each man teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the LORD,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest, declares the LORD. For I will forgive their iniquities and will remember their sins no more."

Matthew 13:11
He replied, "The knowledge of the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven has been given to you, but not to them.

John 6:45
It is written in the Prophets: 'And they will all be taught by God.' Everyone who has heard the Father and learned from Him comes to Me--

John 14:16
And I will ask the Father, and He will give you another Advocate to be with you forever--

John 14:17
the Spirit of truth. The world cannot receive Him, because it neither sees Him nor knows Him. But you do know Him, for He abides with you and will be in you.

John 14:26
But the Advocate, the Holy Spirit, whom the Father will send in My name, will teach you all things and will remind you of everything I have told you.

1 Corinthians 2:12
We have not received the spirit of the world, but the Spirit who is from God, that we may understand what God has freely given us.

2 Corinthians 1:21
Now it is God who establishes both us and you in Christ. He anointed us,

1 Thessalonians 4:9
Now about brotherly love, you do not need anyone to write to you, because you yourselves have been taught by God to love one another.

Hebrews 8:11
No longer will each one teach his neighbor or his brother, saying, 'Know the Lord,' because they will all know Me, from the least of them to the greatest.

1 John 2:20
You, however, have an anointing from the Holy One, and all of you know the truth.

[Lawrence]

Rose red said, "... there is just so much once the Holy Spirit opens the door   for us all to learn of Him
  we are seeking clarity and a crystal clear truth  and life in Christ..."

:iagree: I could not agree more than I do to this. ALL our learning is by and from the spirit given to us as the best gift from our Elohim. Yet, we are learning truth. I believe that idolatry of "my thinking" or "my understanding" is the great deception that was offered in the garden to the first son of God. All humans live life with the ideas that we know truth. Then comes the spirit of Truth and shows us we know nothing as we ought to. For this I rejoice because it takes all the pressure off of me to perform.

Grace fill your days and May the fullness of time come quickly that all will see our God.
Lawrence

[rosered]

Rose red said, "... there is just so much once the Holy Spirit opens the door   for us all to learn of Him
  we are seeking clarity and a crystal clear truth  and life in Christ..."

:iagree: I could not agree more than I do to this. ALL our learning is by and from the spirit given to us as the best gift from our Elohim. Yet, we are learning truth. I believe that idolatry of "my thinking" or "my understanding" is the great deception that was offered in the garden to the first son of God. All humans live life with the ideas that we know truth. Then comes the spirit of Truth and shows us we know nothing as we ought to. For this I rejoice because it takes all the pressure off of me to perform.

Grace fill your days and May the fullness of time come quickly that all will see our God.
Lawrence

  I so agree  and have learned the hard lessons of not knowing as I ought also
  praise God for His great mercy and grace and Love  to us ...  :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

[Lawrence]

Hi rosered, I have been gone for a while and can only post in this section. I am posting again to see if the rest of the forum will be open to me.

I hope you are well and being enlightened each day.
Lawrence