John 14:6, “I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father ex

[gregoryfl]

My understanding of this had nothing to do with who he ended up dying for, but of what type of death he was dying.

Now is the judging of this world. Now shall the Chief of this world be cast out. And I, if I should be exalted out of the earth, shall be drawing all to Myself." Now this He said, signifying by what death He was about to be dying.
(Joh 12:31-33)


The 'all' I believe he is referring to is the judging of the world. The death he was about to be dying was a death of judgment.

Ronen

[joeteekay]

This post focuses on the immediate context of John 12:32, i.e. the passage containing it, starting at John 12:20 (also previously covered here.)


I have a different opinion of that, and I believe it is confirmed by scriptures(pas) you will not read. All of the verses I posted create context. You want to respond with one verse and even that one is mis appropriated by you. Jesus says simply.

"If I am lifted up from the earth I will draw all men unto me." Period. It is and unqualified all, just as in Phil 2:10 "every(pas) knee shall bow and all the other verses I quoted. Pan, from pas, all- inclusive of all.

"As in Adam all(pas) died so also in Christ shall all(pan) be made alive"

Especially in Col 1 Paul explains what "all"(pas) is.

15He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all(pas) creation. 16For by Him all(pas) things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities—all(pas) things have been created through Him and for Him. 17He is before all(pas) things, and in Him all(pas) things hold together. 18He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything(pas). 19For it was the Father's good pleasure for all(pas) the fullness to dwell in Him, 20and through Him to reconcile all(pas) things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.

Pas, pan, panta- a;; tenses of the same word, pas- meaning all, with no subsets unless displayed in the context.

For instance, if I say "all the figs in the basket are ripe"- the subset, "in the basket" sets a limit, but the limit is still defined by "all", "every"- fig in the basket. If one says, "All figs grow on trees"- there is no subset, the statement defines all figs that are, ever were, ever will be.

So it is in Colossians 1, and all those other verses I listed- which you clearly do not regard with the respect due scripture.

All that He created.(John 1 Nothing thar was made was made without Him)

All that He is before.(If He created all things He is before all things- everything....that is why it is called "CREATION"

All things that hold together in Him. (Heb 1:1-3 all things hold together by the word of His power)

So when it says "and so it pleased the Father to make all(pas) the fulness dwell in Him and to reconcile all(pas) things in heaven and in earth to Himself", it means the same "all things listed above will eventually be reconciled".

Everything meaning every one.

I agree with EW.

Yes there are many scriptures that tell us that God will save ALL (everyone, every single person).  Some of them are:

I Tim 2:4 who will have ALL men to be saved and to come to the knowledge of the truth

1 Tim 4:10 And through Him having made peace through the blood of His cross, it pleased the Father to reconcile ALL things to Himself through Him, whether the things on earth or the things in Heaven

I Cor. 1:10 For to this we both labor and suffer reproach, because we trust in the living God, who is the Savior of ALL men, especially of those who believe.

There are many more.  But is that conclusive? Many people do not believe these scriptures. Some people maintain that you can't say ALL always means ALL.  Technically they are right about the word..  Where it says "ALL should be saved," why do they say that doesn't mean ALL? But why do they say that and what is their proof?  They incorrectly say that when it comes to God saving ALL (everyone, every single person), they can't do it for two main reasons:

1.   to protect their false doctrine that evil people must end up in an ever burning hell fire and be tormented for ever.  They consider that the justice of God. That is wrong.

2.   to maintain that man has free moral agency and has the will to reject the saving power of Jesus Christ.  That belief is also wrong.

How do they "prove" that ALL doesn't always mean ALL.  They use scriptures like these:

Mar 1:5  And there went out unto him ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem, and were ALL baptized of him in the river of Jordan, confessing their sins.

2Ti_1:15  This thou knowest, that ALL they which are in Asia be turned away from me; of whom are Phygellus and Hermogenes.

In these two scriptures we have the word ALL. But does it really mean absolutely everyone?

The word translated ALL here is Strongs G3896, and is found 1075 times in the New Testament.  It is the Greek word "pas" and it means:

πᾱς
pas
Including ALL the forms of declension; apparently a primary word; ALL, any, every, the whole
KJV Usage: ALL (manner of, means) alway (-s), any (one), X daily, + ever, every (one, way), as many as, + no (-thing), X throughly, whatsoever, whole, whosoever.

Notice one definition is "as many as".  This is likely the more appropriate meaning in the above two verses.

In Mark 1:5 if we said ALL (pas) means every last one every single one, there would be a problem. How can we say  yes it does mean absolutely everyone. "...ALL the land of Judaea, and they of Jerusalem..." I can not really believe that every single person alive, ALL Judaea and the whole city of Jerusalem went out to Christ?   The infants, the elderly that can't walk? Not likely.

Similarly in 2 Tim 1:15, does that word pas in the Greek mean every single one in Asia turned away (forsook) Paul? Maybe but not likely.

So the word 'ALL' can mean - ALL, completely, totality or as many as. It depends on the context.

Nevertheless, there just a whole bunch of scriptures that reveal that God will save ALL. and we do not need to rely on finding the word ALL to see this is so.

1 John 2:2  and He is the propitiation for our sins; and not for ours only, but also for the WHOLE WORLD.

John 1:29 says, "Behold, the Lamb of God, that takes away the sin of the world!" 

1 John 4:14  And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

John 3:17  For God sent the Son into the world, not to condemn the world, but that the world through Him may (CLV) be SAVED.


And of course there are these with the word ALL which can only mean every single one, absolutely everyone:

1 Cor 15:22  For as in Adam ALL die, even so in Christ ALL will be made alive.

Rom 3:23  for ALL have sinned, and fall short of the glory of God;

2 Peter 3:9  The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness; but is longsuffering to us-ward, not willing that any should perish, but that ALL should come to repentance.

[darryl]

it suggest PS is determined to promote ET but doesn't know his Bible.

Yes, he is...but  he does initiate  interesting debates

[CST]

it suggest PS is determined to promote ET but doesn't know his Bible.

Yes, he is...but  he does initiate  interesting debates

Very true, although much of that is about what the Bible actually says and not what he says because he's trying to abuse it. In this case John 12:32. Now I explained how I found that the parable of the dragnet makes it harder for me to take that as a lot of people take it here but there's a lot in the the surrounding context that I can understand could allow it to be read the way it's read here. I kind of think even ps sees that or why would he try to diminish it by saying it means 'all my servants' a concept ill conceived for the following reasons:

First if Jesus is using the phrase in the current sense then it refers to those that are currently Jesus' servants. Anyone who is currently Jesus' servant surely is so because Jesus has already drawn them, there can be no other explanation. The Bible teaches this.

Which is the second problem, if it is the current sense it means all those who will become Jesus' servants. Which of course is necessarily already restricted to those He draws, so the word 'all' doesn't fir very well as obviously He doesn't mean 'all' If Jesus meant His servants He could have said 'my servants' in place of 'all' and 'all my servants' would have been understood. That doesn't work the other way, He can't say 'all' and not expect people to imagine there's a restriction behind that all it doesn't work like that.

Another thing I've been drawn to is the quote from Paul. In 1 Corinthians 15:28 'When he has done this, then the Son himself will be made subject to him who put everything under him, so that God may be all in all.' The end of Christ's kingdom, yes and often used in showing why forever can't mean forever because that world suggest that Christ's Kingdom last, literally, forever because the Bible says that somewhere and this says that the Kingdom has a culmination.

But here's the thing, the Bible says exactly that in no uncertain terms. '"And behold, you will conceive in your womb and bear a son, and you shall call his name Jesus. He will be great, and will be called the Son of the Most High; and the Lord God will give to him the throne of his father David, and he will reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there will be no end."' (Luke 1:31-33)

Whether 'aion' always needs the weight of 'for ever' (it doesn't) it says, here, without ambiguity Jesus' Kingdom is 'without end'.

So how do we reconcile this, well presumably remembering that Jesus is God, is ultimately always subject to God and to all intents and purposes is ultimately wielding up the Kingdom to Himself, but there's more here that speaks much more to UR than this does. It's the passage in Isaiah that which this seems to reference, 9:6-7

'"For to us a child is born, to us a son is given; and the government will be upon his shoulder, and his name will be called "Wonderful Counselor, Mighty God, Everlasting Father, Prince of Peace." Of the increase of his government and of peace there will be no end, upon the throne of David, and over his kingdom, to establish it, and to uphold it with justice and with righteousness from this time forth and for evermore. The zeal of the LORD of hosts will do this.'

Same thing. But it's seems pretty clear what is being said here the number of those who serve Jesus are always added to add those who live in His peace. Hell is opposed to peace it cannot be without and and, unlike this, the Bible never says it is.

[eaglesway]

I believe ps has conducted himself respectfully in presenting the opposing view. Sometimes this is useful as it presents the opportunity to address the issues, but still... we are not a debate forum. We are a discussion forum- and altho that may seem like a fine line, it mainly means when we get to the point where we are hammeing each other over some topic it is time to end the discussion because it has become a circular debate :o)

Regardless of which side is doing the hammering.

[marie glen]

..amen, this actually seems (to me) to be pretty conclusive.. but I thought I would add a thought here, to PS's concerns, a bit different which most ET (eternal damnation) believers don't seem to entertain..

Is God 100% good?

Is God Perfect?

Is He all powerful?

To me, any doctrine, no matter how strongly held or how long it has been strongly held, which denies any of these, cannot be true.

If God our Father is perfect - and who would say He is not? Then logically, the 'end' result of all this - human history, etc, can onLy be the very best one possible. Isn't that what Perfection is?

"Be ye perfect, even as your heavenly Father is Perfect." - I'm sorry but millions writhing in unbelievable torture forever without relief ever, is not perfection. Neither is losing millions.. (Eternal annihilation) The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever and is not biblically backed ('hell' is a misunderstanding and mistranslation from 'sheol' - the grave/not seen. There's really only one verse which possibly could be read as eternal damnation and that is when Jesus said "unless you repent you will die in your sins" - well, all that really means is they will rise still in their sins.. And if they were forever lost, why raise them?

Also, the sentence at judgment 'day' - "those not written in the book of life will go to the lake of fire, the second death"/dying - what is required to be written in the book of life? to believe.. those not believing - I believe - at that time, during or at end of judgement 'day' will then go to "ageduring" (not 'eternal') lof.

But logically, I can't help but think, after being risen from their graves and witnessing judgment 'day', who's not going to "believe"? Only, imo, the hardest hard cases.. who will experience weeping and gnashing of teeth.. and the great gulf between blessedness and not blessedness.. between light and love and the outer darkness.. I daresay, hitler, mao, stalin, etc.. and even many lesser doers of evil will experience plenty of weeping and gnashing of teeth.. Yet, yes, "every knee shall bend and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord" - Isaiah 45:23, Romans 14:11, Philippians 2:10,11. --- "...no one can say, "Jesus is Lord," except by the Holy Spirit." - 1 Corinthians 12:3.

Just my :2c:  :girlheart:

[eaglesway]

If God our Father is perfect - and who would say He is not? Then logically, the 'end' result of all this - human history, etc, can onLy be the very best one possible. Isn't that what Perfection is?

"Be ye perfect, even as your heavenly Father is Perfect." - I'm sorry but millions writhing in unbelievable torture forever without relief ever, is not perfection. Neither is losing millions.. (Eternal annihilation) The whole thing makes no sense whatsoever and is not biblically backed ('hell' is a misunderstanding and mistranslation from 'sheol' - the grave/not seen. There's really only one verse which possibly could be read as eternal damnation and that is when Jesus said "unless you repent you will die in your sins" - well, all that really means is they will rise still in their sins.. And if they were forever lost, why raise them?

:thumbsup:

Wonderful post.

[marie glen]

 :thanks:

[chester-blowfold]

Jesus the Christ is:

The Way to the Father.

The Truth of the Father.

The Life of the Father.

All will come to the Father through Him in this age or in an age to come, otherwise the Father can never become All in all.  But He will become so, so the theory that this life is your only chance is clearly false.  Anyway, the Bible never says that your eternal (or even age-long) fate is sealed at the death of your carnal body - it is an invention, just as eternal conscious torment in an eternal Hell is an invention (in fact, a 404).

Ignore. My question was poor.

[marie glen]

Jesus the Christ is:

The Way to the Father.

The Truth of the Father.

The Life of the Father.

All will come to the Father through Him in this age or in an age to come, otherwise the Father can never become All in all.  But He will become so, so the theory that this life is your only chance is clearly false.  Anyway, the Bible never says that your eternal (or even age-long) fate is sealed at the death of your carnal body - it is an invention, just as eternal conscious torment in an eternal Hell is an invention (in fact, a 404).

:thumbsup: :thumbsup: Amen! You said it!!


:Chinscratch: 404, ignore, poor.. Chester's a poet! :gsmile: :thumbsup:

[Dandelion]

I love your point about perfection and how 'hell' does not fit into that schemata.

Excellent point, Marie!

You go, girl!              :Gclap:

D.