My name is Clay,
I read all the questions, but in the end I still can't grasp one thing. If there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want. There would be no "commandments" they would just be "guidelines". It doesn't make sense that there is no punishment for the wicked (punishment on earth doesn't count, not everyone gets caught). There would also be no need for alot of the Bible. You may have explained this somewhere, I just haven't found it. It would seem that just being "dead" would not be that big of a diterant for sin.
Thank you and God Bless,
Clay (the confused christian)
There's no one here that doesn't believe in punishment for sin. Every sin and disobedience shall receive it's justly proportioned recompense of reward. It's actually the person that wholeheartedly believes in Eternal Punishment that sets aside most of the Bible, because of all of the references to various types of sin, various types of punishments, and various types of restitution. Plus, the dozens of Scriptures that assure us that all of the promises of both destruction and restoration must be fulfilled. On the eternal punishment plan, there's no such thing as being recompensed double for all of one's sins, which exists in the Scriptures. Where would having to pay back 7 fold come in? We believe in all of the proper durations of the Scriptures. We simply are honest with the text and don't bend any of those to mean eternal, everlasting, etc. The Scriptures from cover to cover use words that indicate limited durations regarding punishments in the Hebrew and Greek, and though these same words are likewise applied to certain aspects or dispensations of salvation, the Bible [in the original languages] goes on further to use words regarding the permanence of salvation and of all aspects of the Universal Restoration that are never used regarding punishment, wickedness, fire, destruction, weeping, gnashing of teeth, death, etc. It gets tedious tracking all of the precise meanings in the Hebrew and Greek because of the botched up KJV and other translations that by their own admission "follow in the traditions of the KJV," but it's worth the research to prove that [SCRIPTURALLY] God will be all in all. Not all in a few or all in most, but all in all.
Anyway, WELCOME TO TENTMAKER :cloud9:
Quote from: clayforchrist on September 29, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
My name is Clay,
I read all the questions, but in the end I still can't grasp one thing. If there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want. There would be no "commandments" they would just be "guidelines". It doesn't make sense that there is no punishment for the wicked (punishment on earth doesn't count, not everyone gets caught). There would also be no need for alot of the Bible. You may have explained this somewhere, I just haven't found it. It would seem that just being "dead" would not be that big of a diterant for sin.
Thank you and God Bless,
Clay (the confused christian)
Hi Clay,
I'm going to sound a bit harsh in my responce here, just because that is how it comes across when a Christian has to face the truth of the belief system they are a part of.
The scriptural truth of universal reconciliation does not remove Gods chastisement, it shows why it is of love for everyone. The lie is that it is eternal.
The threat of eternal torture has not caused anyone not to sin, period. Everyone sins, no one is sinless. Devotion to God does not turn your sin into harmless mistakes. You all still sin, I sin, universalists sin.
It has deterred no one from sin.
Why is that Clay? Of course you are confused, because you know what I just said to be true.
What your confusion is from, is God bringing you out of darkness into the light. It will pass in time and you will see the glory of the Father.
Welcome.
QuoteIf there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want.
People do what they want anyway. If they don't sin because of 'everlasting torture', well then you have discovered something I haven't. But from what I can see the everlasting torture crowd isn't anymore sinless than any other crowd. Martin is absolutely right when he says that no universalist believes that their is not punishment for the wicked, I believe the fact is that you reap what you sow. As to the specifics of what happens in the afterlife for those who in our eyes haven't 'paid the last pence' I haven't figured that one out, but I maintain that He is a God of Justice and let God be true and every man a lier. But to maintain that eternal torment is justice is tortuous to my intellect and heart. Ironically I happened upon the Wikedia definition of what Jewish people believe as to what happens in the afterlife, they believe Gehenna is a purgatory that burns away the evil and never lasts any longer than 12 months. I thought that interesting in that mainstream Christianity boasts itself as a better covenant and yet I would rather follow a doctrine of law with the worst as 12 months restoritive suffering than place my eggs in a basket where the expectations are fuzzy and the punishment is forever.
Quote from: clayforchrist on September 29, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
My name is Clay,
I read all the questions, but in the end I still can't grasp one thing. If there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want. There would be no "commandments" they would just be "guidelines". It doesn't make sense that there is no punishment for the wicked (punishment on earth doesn't count, not everyone gets caught). There would also be no need for alot of the Bible. You may have explained this somewhere, I just haven't found it. It would seem that just being "dead" would not be that big of a diterant for sin.
Thank you and God Bless,
Clay (the confused christian)
I couldn't disagree with you more, even although I don't have the peace that passes all understanding that hell isn't eternal, I don't believe coming to Christ should be just for fire insurance
I'm not a saint and I don't claim to have to love of Christ in my heart (mainly because I am suffering from severe depression/anxiety) but that's nothing compared to the anxiety/stress that I'm feeling that there is such a thing as an eternal hell in store for the majority of mankind (according to the teachings of christendom) if true consider this
QuoteEph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love
QuoteRev 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.
QuoteRom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth;)
Rom 9:12 It was said unto her, The elder shall serve the younger.
Rom 9:13 As it is written, Jacob have I loved, but Esau have I hated.
Rom 9:14 What shall we say then? Is there unrighteousness with God? God forbid.
Rom 9:15 For he saith to Moses, I will have mercy on whom I will have mercy, and I will have compassion on whom I will have compassion.
Rom 9:16 So then it is not of him that willeth, nor of him that runneth, but of God that sheweth mercy.
Rom 9:17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
Rom 9:18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
Rom 9:19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
Rom 9:20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?
Rom 9:21 Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?
Rom 9:22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
Rom 9:23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory
Lets be honest, no one in their right mind would want to spend an eternity with the likes of Hitler, Pol Pot, Saddam Hussien, child molesters, murderers etc in the state that they died in
However
QuoteRom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God
Quote1Jn 1:8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
When looking at the above verses it's clear the ball is in God's court and nothing I feel or say can change it, our hope depends wholly on His character (which to be quite honest I'm not entirely sure about myself)
All I can hope for is that He will show mercy to all.
It's a funny thing, once I stopped being concerned about only my own salvation and started being concerned about others, I find it harder and harder to reconcile the love and justice of God to include an everlasting torture chamber that never ends, as much as I dislike what Hitler and his ilk did, I don't even think even he deserves something so horrible as everlasting torture, although he should face some sort of punishment
Now to be honest, I don't know if I'm being deceived, I mean after all I should be focusing on the huge sacrifice Christ went to on our behalf to save us, and what dirty rotten sinners we are totally deserving of hell, I'm starting to see what this woman saw and as she said, it is far from tremendous, especially touching is her closing paragraph
http://hopebeyondhell.net/testimonial.php
although I know that we don't have any hope without Christ
Quote1Ti 2:5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus
The bible also says this
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for
all, to be testified in due time.
2Sa 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Now that gives me hope that God's judgments are remedial and not merely vindictive without any remedial purposes, it's a strange thing I personally would find it much easier to love and serve Him and to get to know Him even more if eternal punishment wasn't true, and I don't think that the lack of eternal punishment (if true) should give one licence to sin
Anyway after my long post :angelharp: :welcome:
Quote from: Shadow on September 29, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
I'm not a saint and I don't claim to have to love of Christ in my heart (mainly because I am suffering from severe depression/anxiety)
I have always sensed the love of Christ in you regardless :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Shadow on September 29, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
but that's nothing compared to the anxiety/stress that I'm feeling that there is such a thing as an eternal hell in store for the majority of mankind (according to the teachings of christendom)
When we know God's nature it's obvious that such a claim (the ones made by mainstream christendom) are false - especially in the light of this:
Quote from: Shadow on September 29, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
it's clear the ball is in God's court and nothing I feel or say can change it, our hope depends wholly on His character (which to be quite honest I'm not entirely sure about myself)
All I can hope for is that He will show mercy to all.
He has bound all over into unbelief for this very purpose.
Romans 11:32:
International Standard Version (©2008)
For God has locked all people in the prison of their own disobedience so that he may have mercy on them all.
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
God has placed all people into the prison of their own disobedience so that he could be merciful to all people.
King James Bible
For God hath concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy upon all.
American King James Version
For God has concluded them all in unbelief, that he might have mercy on all.
American Standard Version
For God hath shut up all unto disobedience, that he might have mercy upon all.
Quote from: Shadow on September 29, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
It's a funny thing, once I stopped being concerned about only my own salvation and started being concerned about others, I find it harder and harder to reconcile the love and justice of God to include an everlasting torture chamber that never ends,
BINGO! Once the love of Christ within you (I told you it was there) moves you to care about others more than yourself you start to question this absurd tradition.God himself would be miserable forever if eternal hell is true (He loves them even more than you!)
Quote from: Shadow on September 29, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
although I know that we don't have any hope without Christ
Aren't you glad that we are not without Him???
Quote from: Shadow on September 29, 2008, 06:23:44 PM
The bible also says this
1Ti 2:6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.
2Sa 14:14 For we must needs die, and are as water spilt on the ground, which cannot be gathered up again; neither doth God respect any person: yet doth he devise means, that his banished be not expelled from him.
Isa 26:9 With my soul have I desired thee in the night; yea, with my spirit within me will I seek thee early: for when thy judgments are in the earth, the inhabitants of the world will learn righteousness.
Now that gives me hope that God's judgments are remedial and not merely vindictive without any remedial purposes, it's a strange thing I personally would find it much easier to love and serve Him and to get to know Him even more if eternal punishment wasn't true,
Exactly! Once you are truly in touch with your conscience and Christ's love for others there is nothing but misery if you believe in unending misery. Only a selfish person could have any real peace at all with the notion of billions trapped in eternal hopelessness. Someday you will marvel that you even remotely considered such a thing to be true :Sparkletooth:
Quote from: clayforchrist on September 29, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
If there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want.
I wish you were joking with this question, but I know you're probably not.
When I shared universal reconciliation with my hell fire believing neighbor his response was (no joke) "Then why don't we just go down and kill Doris (our friend down the street) and steal all her money, if their is no eternal hell." :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:
I just stared at him in disbelief.
I don't know if we need this doctrine to keep the sinful lost masses in line, but apparently some 'Christians' need it to keep
themselves in line. Sheeeesh. How bizarre.
Quote from: clayforchrist on September 29, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
If there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want.
Matthew 19:19 Honour thy father and thy mother: and, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
God is your father and neighbour.
It's about loving/respecting Father God. Not about fearing Him.
Most parents want to be loved (and respected) by their children. Not that their children almost get an heart attack if they think about them.
Forced love is no love.
good thoughts guys
I thouht of this when reading your post , especially Byrons
But we know that the law [is] good, if a man use it lawfully;
1Ti 1:9 Knowing this, that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers,
1Ti 1:10 For whoremongers, for them that defile themselves with mankind, for menstealers, for liars, for perjured persons, and if there be any other thing that is contrary to sound doctrine;
1Ti 1:11 According to the glorious gospel of the blessed God, which was committed to my trust.
PS what do you think it means to use the Law lawfully ?
is it to judge ourselves with it ? [like a mirror in the face ]
I know its torture to ''feel guilty '' before God all the times , night and day , and who does that , but the adversary...
If a man use it lawfully: and as the law has an intrinsic goodness in its nature, so it is good to men when it is used for the end to which God gave it.
use it lawfully — in its lawful place in the Gospel economy, namely, not as a means of a "'righteous man" attaining higher perfection than could be attained by the Gospel alone (1Ti_4:8; Tit_1:14), which was the perverted use to which the false teachers put it, but as a means of awakening the sense of sin in the ungodly (1Ti_1:9, 1Ti_1:10; compare Rom_7:7-12; Gal_3:21).
if a man use it lawfully; for if it is used in order to obtain life, righteousness, and salvation by the works of it, or by obedience to it, it is used unlawfully: for the law does not give life, nor can righteousness come by it; nor are, or can men be saved by the works of it; to use the law for such purposes, is to abuse it, as the false teachers did, and make that which is good in itself, and in its proper use, to do what is evil; namely, to obscure and frustrate the grace of God, and make null and void the sufferings and death of Christ. A lawful use of the law is to obey it, as in the hands of Christ, the King of saints, and lawgiver in his church, from a principle of love to him, in the exercise of faith on him, without any mercenary selfish views, without trusting to, or depending on, what is done in obedience to it, but with a view to the glory of God, to testify our subjection to Christ, and our gratitude to him for favours received from him.
If a man use it lawfully - That is, interpret it according to its own spirit and design, and use it for the purpose for which God has given it; for the ceremonial law was a schoolmaster to lead us unto Christ, and Christ is the end of that law for justification to every one that believes. Now those who did not use the law in reference to these ends, did not use it lawfully - they did not construe it according to its original design and meaning.
Quote from: clayforChrist
If there is no everlasting torture, What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want.
I was told this very same thing by a Baptist preacher.
I guess what they are saying is, "if there is no threat of eternal torment I would go out and kill my neighbors, become a thief, fornicator, or all the other horrendous things that they can think of".
Some people need law or something to lean on, something to keep them in line, they are babes. They haven't matured.
CHB
:thumbsup:
Thanks WhiteWings ,
That was good~! :icon_flower:
I always saw the law as a mirror as a refection of what we are , these are the verses that made me think that
Knowing that there is the Law of moses [death]
and also the Law of Liberty :bigGrin: [life]
1Cr 13:12 For now we see through a glass, darkly[mirror]; but then face to face: now I know in part; but then shall I know even as also I am known.
2Cr 3:18 But we all, with open face beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, are changed into the same image from glory to glory, [even] as by the Spirit of the Lord.
the mercy and favor of the Lord is come
Jam 2:13 For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Hi RoseRed,
What is an evil house doing on a forum like this?
FYI Rosered is the name of a house in one of Stephan Kings books.
Before Martin slaps me again for bad humor let me say God wishes all houses are as good as you :laughing7:
About my post it was just a cut and paste job from e-sword commentaries.
It's a bit tricky to understand fully. Requires some feeling besides logic.
I read it this way on a personal level:
The good use of the law is:
Because God/Jesus/HS revealed themself to you and gave you the gift of life, you start to follow the law as a thank you for something already recieved
I received something great so I'm going to thank you by trying to follow the law.
The wrong use of the law is:
God because I lived a good life according to your laws I expect you give me now what I have earned by doing so.
I gave something so I demand something in return.
It can also be read on how you apply the law to others. (much harder to explain for me)
You may 'use' the law to lead others toward God/Jesus/HS so they may grow in Christianity.
You may not use the law to enforce things on others.
I see it a bit as in everyday life. You may educate the people arround you that theft is wrong.
But you are not allowed to lock thiefs in your cellar because that's the task of the judge (God)
LOL WhiteWings , I saw that movie lol :mshock:
but my real name is Rose Ann
so rosered just seems to fit as a good moniker hee hee
and I like the way you showed the comparison there , this last post
the other was but a dry morsle , but good lol
for me I feel that same as you on this ..
the law lawfully , would be to first do no harm , do to everyone the same way you so want them to do you , kind of a '' we are all in this together attitude'' , lets make the most of it Jesus paid it all , let us Honor the Lord , abd share this wonderful news !
unlawfully to me it to use it to point the finger at others and condemn , judge them while the other three fingers are pointing at you .. mistreat , crush faith etc ..
ha !
thanks broz .. rosered
Quote from: clayforchrist on September 29, 2008, 05:31:16 AM
.... What would keep everyone from just doing whatever they want. .....
Welcome Clay.
I find this to be a pretty easy one for myself anyway. I
AM doing what ever I want. I love my God and want to please Him the same way that I love my wifeand want to please her.
Recently I was traveling on business to a conference for several days. Someone I thought to be a conference worker handed me some "XXX" material in the street, the kind that invites you to a club. I was disgusted when I saw what they handed me and turned around and gave it back.
While I was away from my wife I went to all of those filthy shows I wanted to, NONE. That's the same way it is with God. It's based on love.
I believe in corrective punishment too, but fear is no longer my motivator.
Glad to have you here.
Thanks for your reply, Byron, it really means a lot :HeartThrob:, especially as I'm finding it so hard to actually talk to God right now, there's just so much confusion and unanswered questions :sigh:
Quote from: Shadow on October 07, 2008, 03:25:18 PM
Thanks for your reply, Byron, it really means a lot :HeartThrob:, especially as I'm finding it so hard to actually talk to God right now, there's just so much confusion and unanswered questions :sigh:
All I can say is that all of your posts ring a bell with me - they resonate. I sense all the right questions and all the right answers and so I must keep posting 'BINGO!' somewhere in my responses.
I know it's hard to see when you're going through depression, but honestly - I've never read anyone's posts with such a sense of 'they are moving right direction' every single time.
Be encouraged sis - the 'shadow' is only for a moment :thumbsup:
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 01, 2008, 08:37:56 PM
When I shared universal reconciliation with my hell fire believing neighbor his response was (no joke) "Then why don't we just go down and kill Doris (our friend down the street) and steal all her money, if their is no eternal hell." :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: :mshock: :mshock:
Do you happen to have a big guard dog? Might want to invest in one with a neighbor like that. :icon_jokercolor: This post of yours reminded me of this article from Charles:
http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/WhyLiveAGoodLife.html (http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/WhyLiveAGoodLife.html)
Romans 7, I struggled with this chapter for a year, answer, Romans 8.1
Kevin
I could not agree more !! , thought the same things when reading Romans 7 and than 8 wow
I want nothing more but to LIVE IN THE SPIRIT :thumbsup:
if only i could stay in dwell in the Spirit continuously
but I cannot boast about that :mblush:
Thanks Enjoy your posts
God bless you all ..rose
Rose,
Ah, A friendly voice from the wilderness.
Walking in the Spirit can be [is] exhausting. It can wear out the best sandals, the struggle is not knowing it is a struggle. Once known, there is no other choice, for me.
Sometimes I have to go barefooted.
Sometimes just rest and stand still. I think that's the hardest, for me.
K
Wondering lately about this. The "trials by fire", the "being destitute, barren", "being hated for my name's sake".... Then comparing that with "peace that passes all understanding", "my yolk is easy, my burden light", "casting all your cares on Him for He cares for you....
I wonder sometimes when it's God burning impurities out of me, vs. my own flesh struggling too much to "do what's right", then missing the joy, peace, and contentment.
Random thoughts; "the things I do I don't want to do, the things I want to do, I don't do"; "it is no longer I that do it, but the sin that dwelleth in me"; "who will [not yet, future?] deliver me from this sin and death? Jesus Christ...";
Sometimes I'm just not sure about all that....
James.
Romans 8.1