I thot an investigation of Sodom would be appropriate. Ezekiel 16:49

[keylawk]

I cannot help but notice that Ezekiel seems to specify a number of abominations and sins, without touching upon gay marriage.  And why did Lot's wife, chosen to be spared, turn out to be punished for gazing back at the city that she loved, as she is leaving in obedience.

[jabcat]

Hi Keylawk.  Interesting "introduction".

The first part of your post, active homosexuality, is dealt with in various other places of scripture, just as are many other specific sins - greed, idolatry, adultery, fornication, stealing, lying, lust, etc.  Not every writer necessarily specifically mentions every sin.  Not sure why Ezekiel didn't in the specific passage you cite.

As far as Lot's wife, without studying it at the moment, I personally don't know the answer to the question, seems like one that might require some study, meditation, and discussion might help with that.

[Dandelion]

I cannot help but notice that Ezekiel seems to specify a number of abominations and sins, without touching upon gay marriage.  And why did Lot's wife, chosen to be spared, turn out to be punished for gazing back at the city that she loved, as she is leaving in obedience.
[/quote)

Genesis 19:

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"


18 But Lot said to them, "No, my lords, please! 19 Your[c] servant has found favor in your[d] eyes, and you[e] have shown great kindness to me in sparing my life. But I can't flee to the mountains; this disaster will overtake me, and I'll die. 20 Look, here is a town near enough to run to, and it is small. Let me flee to it—it is very small, isn't it? Then my life will be spared."

21 He said to him, "Very well, I will grant this request too; I will not overthrow the town you speak of. 22 But flee there quickly, because I cannot do anything until you reach it." (That is why the town was called Zoar.)

23 By the time Lot reached Zoar, the sun had risen over the land. 24 Then the Lord rained down burning sulfur on Sodom and Gomorrah—from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 Thus he overthrew those cities and the entire plain, destroying all those living in the cities—and also the vegetation in the land. 26 But Lot's wife looked back, and she became a pillar of salt.

Lot's wife turned to salt, because they were asked not to look back, by the angels.

[jabcat]

So dandelion, that would indicate she wasn't being obedient..partially, but not completely.

Boy, I'm glad God is patient, because that often describes me to a tee.  :(

[Dandelion]

Yes, you could say it that way, jabcat, I suppose.  :declare:

Moral of the story: Don't look back!    :gimpossible:

Well, actually it is more to the tune of 'Obey'. But, I do think there is a message here, about looking back to what we are told to let go of. Except for healing purposes, sometimes, when God says to move on, it is time to let go and embrace the next part of our adventure.

Philippians 3:

12Not that I have already obtained it or have already become perfect, but I press on so that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus. 13Brethren, I do not regard myself as having laid hold of it yet; but one thing I do: forgetting what lies behind and reaching forward to what lies ahead,14I press on toward the goal for the prize of the upward call of God in Christ Jesus....

D.

[sheila]

I believe what occurred with her is similiar with what occurred in the wilderness when some in Israel looked

back  or [longed to return] to Egypt.   It was a very fruitful plain with a lot of material prosperity.

   when God begins His deliverance work in us...and brings us out of the world/loving the things of

this world....any longing for what we are leaving behind can be a real danger to our spiritual deliverance.

[eaglesway]

I cannot help but notice that Ezekiel seems to specify a number of abominations and sins, without touching upon gay marriage.  And why did Lot's wife, chosen to be spared, turn out to be punished for gazing back at the city that she loved, as she is leaving in obedience.

She was told specifically not to look back, they all were.

15 With the coming of dawn, the angels urged Lot, saying, "Hurry! Take your wife and your two daughters who are here, or you will be swept away when the city is punished."

16 When he hesitated, the men grasped his hand and the hands of his wife and of his two daughters and led them safely out of the city, for the Lord was merciful to them. 17 As soon as they had brought them out, one of them said, "Flee for your lives! Don't look back, and don't stop anywhere in the plain! Flee to the mountains or you will be swept away!"

[eaglesway]

Marriage is from God. "Male and female He created them". I dont think the government should be involved in marriage at all, beyond basic health issues, but just because the government calls a legal union between gay men or women doesnt mean it is marriage in the sight of God. It isnt. It is just a legal arrangement in the sight of man.

The proliferation of homosexuality and gender confusion among young people is a symptom of a previously existing condition.

"Because they knew Him as God and honored Him not as God they became darkened in their understanding...."

If people had been as up in arms over the heterosexual lewdness that preceded this current flood of homosexuality and the objectivism of sex apart from love all over all the media and in schools- we wouldnt be here now, and it will only get worse.

I am determined not to get caught up in this issue. There are seekers of God out there, in the highways and hedges. They need the gospel. I will hold it out for them. I can save no one, only the Father draws them. When my nation is no longer a Christian nation then I will continue to be a disciple of Jesus and a citizen of the kingdom of God- a member of His body. But there are still true believers in our country, and we can minister to our brothers and sisters as the levee breaks and the flood waters overflow.

I will do as His Spirit leads me daily. I do not feel led to address all the problems of the world. I am just called to offer the bread of life when I find one hungry, the water of life when I find one thirsty, the word in season when I find one weary on the road as I walk it in my unique life, as all our unique lives continue until they end :o)

[sheila]

 :iagree:

[ian]

'Gay marriage' specifically may not have even been conceptualized. As for what Sodom is popularly known for, doesn't necessarily make it scriptural, right? ;)   A place of widespread lawlessness does sound even more relevant though, imho.

Rom 1:28-32    And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting, filled with all injustice, wickedness, evil, greed, distended with envy, murder, strife, guile, depravity, whisperers, vilifiers, detesters of God, outragers, proud, ostentatious, inventors of evil things, stubborn to parents, unintelligent, perfidious, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them.

To expand on your post Eagle, I haven't seen anything in the New Testament about actively participating in society, which is interesting to me. As a side note, in a state of complacency, with nothing to endure, there is diminished tested-ness, as per Rom 5, and Paul seemed to be against complacency and for endurance. This is a much more difficult point to explain than it seems, but to me, staying separate and holding fast is the walk, in a nutshell. Keeping focus and belonging to our Father in Heaven, not that of earth, still, not being an adversary, not condemning, as we were shown grace. This is also a demonstration to those seeking.

That being said, I'm sad for all of those subjected to the confusion of the world. It's a hopeless place without Him, that much is abundantly clear.

[Lazarus Short]

All these thing happen because men have forgotten God.  :doh:

[jabcat]

Among many lawless things, "what they're popularly known for" is actually part of what they were doing as well. 

In the Romans quote that does cover many sins of the flesh that need confession and forgiveness;  still, backing up a couple of verses, including 27,28, of course is found,  "and in like manner also the males having left the natural use of the female, did burn in their longing toward one another; males with males working shame, and the recompense of their error that was fit, in themselves receiving."  YLT 



 

[jabcat]

Yes Laz, reading further up in the beginning of Romans, it says when they knew God they didn't honor Him, turning to their own imaginations so their heart was darkened.
----
Ian,
Re: Sodom, among many lawless things, "what they're popularly known for" is actually part of what they were doing as well.  Including it seems, depraved men wanting to break into Lot's house and rape the [disguised as male] angels.

In the Romans quote that does cover many sins of the flesh that need confession and forgiveness, backing up a couple of verses to include vs. 27-28, of course is found, 
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women changed the natural use into that which is against nature.
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another, men with men, working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompense for their error which was meet.

[jabcat]

To the OP and however else may apply, here's what I consider a POV with some balance, with the author saying being inhospitable (and other sinfulness/"lawlessness") was indeed a major reason for Sodom's destruction.  However, he also states that homosexual gang rape certainly also qualifies as being inhospitable, and shows by comparing other scriptures how it fits together.  from 'gotquestions' -

"... the most common response to the question "What was the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah?" is that it was homosexuality. That is how the term "sodomy" came to be used to refer to anal sex between two men, whether consensual or forced. Clearly, homosexuality was part of why God destroyed the two cities. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah wanted to perform homosexual gang rape on the two angels (who were disguised as men). At the same time, it is not biblical to say that homosexuality was the exclusive reason why God destroyed Sodom and Gomorrah. The cities of Sodom and Gomorrah were definitely not exclusive in terms of the sins in which they indulged.

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares, "Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy. They were haughty and did detestable things before me..." The Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in Leviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination." Similarly, Jude 7 declares, "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion." So, again, while homosexuality was not the only sin in which the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah indulged, it does appear to be the primary reason for the destruction of the cities.

Those who attempt to explain away the biblical condemnations of homosexuality claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were certainly being inhospitable. There is probably nothing more inhospitable than homosexual gang rape. But to say God completely destroyed two cities and all their inhabitants for being inhospitable clearly misses the point."

[eaglesway]

'Gay marriage' specifically may not have even been conceptualized. As for what Sodom is popularly known for, doesn't necessarily make it scriptural, right? ;)   A place of widespread lawlessness does sound even more relevant though, imho.

Rom 1:28-32    And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting, filled with all injustice, wickedness, evil, greed, distended with envy, murder, strife, guile, depravity, whisperers, vilifiers, detesters of God, outragers, proud, ostentatious, inventors of evil things, stubborn to parents, unintelligent, perfidious, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them.

To expand on your post Eagle, I haven't seen anything in the New Testament about actively participating in society, which is interesting to me. As a side note, in a state of complacency, with nothing to endure, there is diminished tested-ness, as per Rom 5, and Paul seemed to be against complacency and for endurance. This is a much more difficult point to explain than it seems, but to me, staying separate and holding fast is the walk, in a nutshell. Keeping focus and belonging to our Father in Heaven, not that of earth, still, not being an adversary, not condemning, as we were shown grace. This is also a demonstration to those seeking.

That being said, I'm sad for all of those subjected to the confusion of the world. It's a hopeless place without Him, that much is abundantly clear.

I agree mostly, except  perhaps to say thaat we cannot be salt and light if we do not interact with society. Our separateness is in our love, holiness,  conduct, "so that they will see your good works and glorify God". in the world not of it.

It is sad to see the death, chaos, and hardness of this world- I agree totally. "Let there be light" saith the Lord ;o)

[Dandelion]

Marriage is from God. "Male and female He created them". I dont think the government should be involved in marriage at all, beyond basic health issues, but just because the government calls a legal union between gay men or women doesnt mean it is marriage in the sight of God. It isnt. It is just a legal arrangement in the sight of man.

The proliferation of homosexuality and gender confusion among young people is a symptom of a previously existing condition.

"Because they knew Him as God and honored Him not as God they became darkened in their understanding...."

If people had been as up in arms over the heterosexual lewdness that preceded this current flood of homosexuality and the objectivism of sex apart from love all over all the media and in schools- we wouldnt be here now, and it will only get worse.

I am determined not to get caught up in this issue. There are seekers of God out there, in the highways and hedges. They need the gospel. I will hold it out for them. I can save no one, only the Father draws them. When my nation is no longer a Christian nation then I will continue to be a disciple of Jesus and a citizen of the kingdom of God- a member of His body. But there are still true believers in our country, and we can minister to our brothers and sisters as the levee breaks and the flood waters overflow.

I will do as His Spirit leads me daily. I do not feel led to address all the problems of the world. I am just called to offer the bread of life when I find one hungry, the water of life when I find one thirsty, the word in season when I find one weary on the road as I walk it in my unique life, as all our unique lives continue until they end :o)

Amen.

:iagree:

[jabcat]

I agree and I'm not caught up in it either.  Amen.  No marches, banners, standing on the street corner (maybe I should  :dontknow:).    I know you're not doing so EW, you're focusing on a point of salt and light, sharing the gospel with which I agree.   :thumbsup:   But I believe I pick up on an attempt to gloss things over/redirect/even deny in the OP (and other places, for sure).  So I believe we should not do that and continue to speak the truth - all of it - in love.   

Obviously there's a lot more going on and has been going on than that.  It's the flavor of the day though, front and center, and perhaps a symptom or harbinger of other things.  So I don't think we should major on it, but I also don't think it needs to be whitewashed.  I've said before, I'd be happy if it stopped coming up on the boards, but the OP is made..I thought it had died, but then popped back up.  So here we are :)

[dajomaco]

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares,
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy

How many of us find ourselves over fed and unconcerned at various times.

[jabcat]

I can only speak for myself, so I'd say a lot - and would guess it's pretty common.   Do you think that changes other truths?

[jabcat]

I think someone would have to be in denial (or just ignorant of the facts) to believe there weren't other things (as Ian said, general lawlessness) going on in Sodom besides sexual perversion including active homosexual behavior.  I think someone would also have to be in denial (or just ignorant of the facts) to believe the only things going on in Sodom were things that didn't involve sexual perversion including active homosexual behavior.  All of it adding up their judgment.


Again though, this;       

There are seekers of God out there, in the highways and hedges. They need the gospel. I will hold it out for them. I can save no one, only the Father draws them.

[dajomaco]

I can only speak for myself, so I'd say a lot - and would guess it's pretty common.   Do you think that changes other truths?

No I don't think this changes other truths.

There were probably some in Sodom you weren't homosexual.

Fire and brimstone fell on them (the ones not homo ) because they were overfed and unconcerned   

[ed]

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares,
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy

How many of us find ourselves over fed and unconcerned at various times.

[sarcasm]
Yeah................We need to keep our traditional focus.[/sarcasm]

:skittles:

[Lazarus Short]

Those who attempt to explain away the biblical condemnations of homosexuality claim that the sin of Sodom and Gomorrah was inhospitality. The men of Sodom and Gomorrah were certainly being inhospitable.

Their sins were many and varied, but I note that the whole male population of the city did not turn out for the proposed mass rape.  Inhospitality was another of many.  The book of Jasher states that they had the custom of welcoming travelers in, then they would close the gates and refuse the travelers shelter, food, and water, until they died.  The Sodomites would then divide up the travelers' possessions.  One girl gave hospitality, as was killed for it. 

[jabcat]

Ezekiel 16:49-50 declares,
"Now this was the sin of your sister Sodom: She and her daughters were arrogant, overfed and unconcerned; they did not help the poor and needy

How many of us find ourselves over fed and unconcerned at various times.

[sarcasm]
Yeah................We need to keep our traditional focus.[/sarcasm]

:skittles:

After the word needy, the rest of verse is;  "They were haughty and did detestable [שֶׁ֫קֶץ sheqets] things before me..."      The fuller context and scriptural tie-in;  "the Hebrew word translated "detestable" refers to something that is morally disgusting and is the exact same word used in Leviticus 18:22 that refers to homosexuality as an "abomination." Similarly, Jude 7 declares, "...Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion."


It seems there's been a real effort in these discussions to try to be balanced, yet without caving to the current PC that is  unscriptural.  Maybe you're talking more in general, and if so, I agree that a lot of other things get left out.  Seems to me it all goes together and none of it should be dismissed.   :2c:

[jabcat]

I can only speak for myself, so I'd say a lot - and would guess it's pretty common.   Do you think that changes other truths?

No I don't think this changes other truths.

There were probably some in Sodom you weren't homosexual.

Fire and brimstone fell on them (the ones not homo ) because they were overfed and unconcerned

Thanks, I agree.  Sounds like it was a general cesspool.  I know things were horrible during the Roman rule too (Nero, etc.) so it makes me wonder how bad things have to get/how much God will "put up with", etc...only He knows, in the meantime we trust.   :Pray: