Hi,
I'm new to UR and am so grateful God has brought me here! I've been a Christian for 35 years but only recently began to really ponder/question all the doctrines of man I've been taught for so long. Anyway, after sharing some very powerful articles about UR with a friend of a friend, He replied with the typical "UR makes a lot of assumptions," although he never said what those assumptions were. He sent along (thru email) a short paper coming against UR. Most of it I could readily combat with Scripture, but the example of God blotting out a people group in Exodus 17:14 and Exodus 32:33 I had no explanation for. How do I show this person Scripturally that just because God voices His anger and wrath against groups of sinful people, and even if he "blots them out and remembers them no more," they are not eternally lost?
I cannot find a good explanation as to why there are many Scriptures in both the OT and NT that seem to hold people accountable (unto death) for their sins, when God himself has not brought them to understanding yet. Paul seems to urge the Gentiles over and over to come to Christ, but surely he knows all of them cannot until God opens their hearts to receive it. In Acts 17:26-27, it sure sounds like people "choose," when clearly we don't. God is the one who chooses us at the proper time.
Let me say, I believe UR whole heartedly; I just don't always know how to combat the questions I know I will face from those who don't see it.
Thanks!
Jesus name wasn't in the book (of life) either....
It was forbidden to write about Jews convicted of blasphemy (among other things?)
Ps 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
That's why Jewish writings write nothing about Jesus. (but there is (possibly) a cryptic writing about Him in the book of women)
My point being that blotted out lasted a 30 years/generation.
in part my response would take into consideration
that reincarnation and past and future lifetimes of the soul
would be understood by those who are no longer baby believers in jesus
but have a matured renewed mind
and thus would know too
why it is that the bible does not more precisely reveal such details
[Teaching re-incarnation is not a manifestation of maturity, it is a manifestation of deception and a failure to understand the scriptures. Teaching re-incarnation is not allowed on Tentmaker forums, Moderator]
Pro 25:2 It is the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings is to search out a matter.
Pro 25:3 The heaven for height, and the earth for depth, and the heart of kings is unsearchable.
Pro 25:4 Take away the dross from the silver, and there shall come forth a vessel for the finer.
Pro 25:5 Take away the wicked from before the king, and his throne shall be established in righteousness.
Pro 25:6 Put not forth thyself in the presence of the king, and stand not in the place of great men:
Pro 25:7 For better it is that it be said unto thee, Come up hither; than that thou shouldest be put lower in the presence of the prince whom thine eyes have seen.
Pro 25:8 Go not forth hastily to strive, lest thou know not what to do in the end thereof, when thy neighbour hath put thee to shame.
Pro 25:9 Debate thy cause with thy neighbour himself; and discover not a secret to another:
Pro 25:10 Lest he that heareth it put thee to shame, and thine infamy turn not away.
Quote from: WhiteWings on May 18, 2014, 09:17:14 AM
Jesus name wasn't in the book (of life) either....
It was forbidden to write about Jews convicted of blasphemy (among other things?)
Ps 109:13 Let his posterity be cut off; and in the generation following let their name be blotted out.
That's why Jewish writings write nothing about Jesus. (but there is (possibly) a cryptic writing about Him in the book of women)
My point being that blotted out lasted a 30 years/generation.
Blotted out for an eon and not forever.
For our learning;1Co 10:11 Now all these things happened unto them for ensamples: and they are written for our admonition, upon whom the ends of the world are come.
Book of Life is Jesus:
From concordant:
Revelation 13:8 And will worship him all those dwelling on the earth, of which not has been
written the name in the scroll of
the life of the lamb of that having been killed, from a casting down
of a world.
It was wrong for the translators to leave out the article "the" in this verse, as it is in the Greek manuscripts. It is not merely "the book of life of the Lamb," but rather, "the book of ... the life of the Lamb!"
Perhaps this book (scroll) is not merely a list of the names of the saints. The "book of life" is the book of Jesus Christ's LIFE. :2c: :dontknow:
the book of life is comparable to the tree of Life..rootstock in the earth[root of Jesse]
growth rings of the trunk[roll of scroll] branch[es] my servant. leaves[under the shadow
of His wings/shade of the tree] etc
and p.s. what/who is blotted out..is all men in the corrupt image[as we have all bore the image of the
corrupt one] and so,too,we shall all bear the image of the incorruptible one. I MAKE ALL THINGS
NEW. GREAT CHANGE COMING...
:thumbsup:
Hi Jillian,
I think the only way to combat some of these kinds of objections is to not combat them :o). I give God the glory for His sovereign judgment over the acts of men. Then I simply focus on the many verses that show that in the end, God will be "all in all", and that His plan will "reconcile all things to himself".
Ephesians 1:9-11; Colossians 1:15-21; 1 Corinthians 15:23-28, Romans 8:18-24; Revelation 5:13; Rev 21:5 are some great verses.
I will point out that however God blots someone out, it is out of our memory, in time and on the earth, not His.
I would also point out that if all the above verses are not true, then of what use is the Bible in the first place. We cannot pick and choose which verses we want to believe. If there are verses about God's judgment, and there are verses about the "restoration of all things"(Acts 3:19) and "the reconciliation of all things to Himself through the blood of His cross"(Col.1) then surely simple addition leads to a limit on the length of the judgment of God.
I also point out that if men are in torment forever, then the second death never ends- yet 1 Corinthians 15 clearly reads that the last enemy to be subjected is death, after which God will become "ALL IN ALL". God is not ALL IN ALL and death is not subjected if souls are in torment forever.
God cannot be ALL IN ALL to those who have been obliterated from eternal existence. If the scriptures are ALL TRUE, then there must be a limit upon the time of correction represented by the lake of fire, or Gehenna.
Then you can begin to present translation issues around the word "forever", of which there are many and much material about this is available on Tentmaker.
jillian,
I know my reply is somewhat late, but I just wanted to take a look at this, for it is a very good point that needs to be addressed.
Let's take a look at the context:
Rev 3:1 And unto the angel of the church in Sardis write; These things saith he that hath the seven Spirits of God, and the seven stars; I know thy works, that thou hast a name that thou livest, and art dead.
Rev 3:2 Be watchful, and strengthen the things which remain, that are ready to die: for I have not found thy works perfect before God.
Rev 3:3 Remember therefore how thou hast received and heard, and hold fast, and repent. If therefore thou shalt not watch, I will come on thee as a thief, and thou shalt not know what hour I will come upon thee.
Rev 3:4 Thou hast a few names even in Sardis which have not defiled their garments; and they shall walk with me in white: for they are worthy.
Rev 3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
There are a few clues in here, but let's look at one of Jesus' parables:
Mat 25:1 Then shall the kingdom of heaven be likened unto ten virgins, which took their lamps, and went forth to meet the bridegroom.
Mat 25:2 And five of them were wise, and five were foolish.
Mat 25:3 They that were foolish took their lamps, and took no oil with them:
Mat 25:4 But the wise took oil in their vessels with their lamps.
Mat 25:5 While the bridegroom tarried, they all slumbered and slept.
Mat 25:6 And at midnight there was a cry made, Behold, the bridegroom cometh; go ye out to meet him.
Mat 25:7 Then all those virgins arose, and trimmed their lamps.
Mat 25:8 And the foolish said unto the wise, Give us of your oil; for our lamps are gone out.
Mat 25:9 But the wise answered, saying, Not so; lest there be not enough for us and you: but go ye rather to them that sell, and buy for yourselves.
Mat 25:10 And while they went to buy, the bridegroom came; and they that were ready went in with him to the marriage: and the door was shut.
Mat 25:11 Afterward came also the other virgins, saying, Lord, Lord, open to us.
Mat 25:12 But he answered and said, Verily I say unto you, I know you not.
Mat 25:13 Watch therefore, for ye know neither the day nor the hour wherein the Son of man cometh.
In my opinion, and from a dispensation view (that of the physical 2nd coming of Christ), the Church, the body of Christ, will be called up to heaven to meet the Lord in the air, where also those who have before passed away come with Him, while those who claimed to be Christians, will be left to face the hour of darkness on the earth. There will be weeping and gnashing of teeth, and many will say, "Lord haven't we prophesied in thy name and in thy name done many wonderful works" and the Lord responds' "Away from me you workers of iniquity, for I have never known thee". These will indeed have the opportunity to repent (be brought back in); these are by some known as the "tribulation saints".
Now, from a non-dispensational point of view. The Book of Life represents our life here on earth while we are living and walking, or communing with God in righteousness. That part of our life where we are not walking with Jesus is not written in the Book of Life, or is blotted out. (see the post on "the book of life).
I know that there are other members that can shed more light on this, and I welcome them to share what the Spirit of Truth has shown them on this matter as well.
Quote from: saintwalee on July 04, 2014, 07:54:38 AM
jillian,
In my opinion, and from a dispensation view (that of the physical 2nd coming of Christ), the Church, the body of Christ, will be called up to heaven to meet the Lord in the air,
Not the body/church but His bride/elect.
"And the books were opened". I think there is more than one "book". Our conscience is, in my opinion, the "book of our words and deeds". It will be opened and read "their conscience either accusing or excusing them on the day that God judges the secrets of men's hearts through Jesus Christ"(Romans 2).
"Therefore we must all stand before the judgment seat of Christ to give account for the deeds done while in the body".
I think it may be referencing to Hoshana Rabba, or Great Salvation: On Tishri 21 judgment is delivered. On this day the Jews greeted each other with "Good Note" as a reference of being written in the Book of Life.
There was a 'tradition' of being blotted out. Salathiel who burned parts of the Torah was blotted out too. Jesus was blotted out too.
It simply meant those persons were not allowed to be mentioned (in writing) for the next 30 years.
:cloud9: Isn't it "amazing" how many things reference back to Jewish understanding and customs? Never ceases to amaze me how Helenized our understanding became after the first JEWISH Christians died or were martyred. So much became veiled to our eyes, as Western believers. Just my :2c: Blessings...
Quote from: Cardinal on July 04, 2014, 02:33:55 PM
:cloud9: Isn't it "amazing" how many things reference back to Jewish understanding and customs?
Same here. I 'frequently' wonder how that can be. Was God just doing some mind control and let the Jews 'freely' pick their own customs? Or did large amounts of wisdom from God not make it into the OT?
I think we will never be sure in this life, but think about the NT and Jesus. Roughly speaking the ministry of Jesus is found in the first 4 NT books. Those books are largely the same. Parts of those books are not about Jesus but about others.
Personally, I think Jesus did, said, taught far more than officially written down in those 'few' verses. I'm sure the 12 and the public asked Him many more questions and He gladly answered them all. That's devine knowledge/truth that now may be known as fable, not to be trusted or at best 'sounds good'.
Some of that knowledge we undoubtedly see when the 12 start teaching themselves, although that's with heavy Pentecost/HS backup.
Anyway, my point is that the OR prophets didn't write down everything the got from God/angels and that's how certain customs were formed. Needless to say many customs were/are man-made.
:2c:
I had one of those "revelations" late last name regarding "name" in Revelation.
Rev_3:5 He that overcometh, the same shall be clothed in white raiment; and I will not blot out his name out of the book of life, but I will confess his name before my Father, and before his angels.
Rev_2:17 He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the hidden manna, and will give him a white stone, and in the stone a new name written, which no man knoweth saving he that receiveth it.
So it looks like the New Name won't be blotted out!
But what of our earthly name, our so-called Christian name?
Rev_20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.
Flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God. So I think that our New Name is for our New Glorified Body, thus being written in the Lamb's book of Life. :dsunny: