Hi everyone!

[NarrowGate]

Just wanted to introduce myself and say Hi to all, I have not yet been sold on the universal reconciliation of all. However I do have a lot of questions I am seeking out about what I have been taught as truth concerning hell.

I found this website because of questions I was seeking out after doing a lot of research on near-death experiences and the after life . . .

I guess I can start out with an easy question about what exactly you believe about people that die outside of belief in Jesus' death burial resurrection and the price he paid for the sin of all.

Do you believe that people who die without putting there faith in Jesus do go to hell for a period of time to be chastized for there unbelief and eventually are saved or that immediatly after death they will have an opportunity to repent and believe thus entering in to relationship with Christ and no one spends time in hell?
Is universal salvation and universal reconciliation the same or different?
Mar 16:16  He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

Thankyou and I am looking foward to growing in love, knowledge, and wisdom of our Lord Jesus!

[martincisneros]

I guess I can start out with an easy question about what exactly you believe about people that die outside of belief in Jesus' death burial resurrection and the price he paid for the sin of all.

If He paid the price for all, then there's no longer a price that anyone else has to pay or add to the finished work of Christ.

Do you believe that people who die without putting there faith in Jesus do go to hell for a period of time to be chastized for there unbelief and eventually are saved or that immediatly after death they will have an opportunity to repent and believe thus entering in to relationship with Christ and no one spends time in hell?

Most Biblically based Christian Universalists do believe in limited duration afterlife punishments.  I'm one of the ones that used to believe it that way, but started running into Biblical problems with setting aside "He that has died has ceased from sin."(Romans 6, I think.)  "The wages of sin is death BUT the gift of God is the knowledge of God and of His Son Jesus Christ."(Romans 6 compared with John 17)  Looking at afterlife punishments and how they worked themselves out in the afflictions of descendants in the Old Testament 'cause the sins were visited to the third and fourth generation, which seems to correspond to "not forgiven in this age or in the age to come." 

As I've said for years, what about the age after that?  As some have given as an illustration, an incarcerated prisoner may either serve the term of his incarceration or he may be pardoned by the Governor.  Whether pardoned/forgiven or having served his time, in either case both men are free.  One has no past while the other one can't be further prosecuted for his crimes.  But one wouldn't presume that having a judge was pointless just because pardons were issued to some or even many.  Some inherit the Kingdom while others are inherited and are a part of the nations that the saints rule over.

The work of Christ isn't greater than the work of Adam if some are at last finally, unrecoverably lost.  As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive, according to 1Corinthians 15:22.  Many Christians pass over that too quickly.  All were created in Christ according to Colossians 1 before they were ever given through the loins of the first Adam.  1Corinthians 15:22 is saying to us that as in the death of Adam all men died, even so in the death of Christ shall all be made alive.  All were in Adam when he died, except for Christ.  All were in Christ prior to being in Adam, and continued in Christ when He was going to the Cross.  Otherwise, we have the Calvinists unhappy dilema of deciding who He died for, if not for all.  Here's where you come to the one and the many language of the Scriptures.  The one and the many equal the "all."  Through the disobedience of the one, the many were made sinners, therefore through the obedience of the one the many were made righteous.  It's the exact same statement, but speaking a little more technically in Romans 5 as when it says in Romans 5 that all were made sinners and all are being made righteous.  The work of Christ isn't like the work of Adam in that no one can come along later and undo the work of Christ.  The one and the many are a beautiful study in the Scriptures on how they equal the all.  Narrow is the road leading to life, because it's only through Jesus Christ.  And broad is the way leading to destruction and many go that way.  But Hebrews 2 says that Christ died to save the many and not just the few that found the narrow road to life.

Limited duration of future punishment makes more sense to between half and most Christians Universalists because they literalize some of the parables while recognizing the limited duration of aion in the New Testament Greek, which KJV translates as both an age and forever.  Firstly, I've never known of a word in any language that meant one thing while meaning it's exact opposite depending on subjective context appeals.  Secondly, it would be irresponsible to send a message where that kind of word game was deliberately inherent in it.  Thirdly, there are stronger terms in the New Testament Greek than "an age" to denote the perpetuity of the Godhead, the blessings of the Godhead and of the Abrahamic system, and the relationship of believers to Christ that are never applied to curses, death, punishment, wrath, destruction, wickedness, not inheriting the kingdom, or the Calvinist's supposed infinity of sin argument.  It's not there in the Greek.  Although the KJV applies "infinite" to sin once in Job, it's clearly obvious from the rest of Scripture and common sense that it's used in the sense of a great multitude, as you often find Josephus using the term.  The gates of Hell can't prevail against the Kingdom of Christ, right?

Mar 16:16  He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

How were Thomas, Saul of Tarsus, and Bar-Jesus or Elymas the magician dealt with by the risen Christ in their condemnation for their unbelief?  Two of them were blinded for a while, while one of them may have lost control of his bodily functions in the confrontation.  But there's no reason to believe that each of these men didn't go on to very fruitful relationships with the Lord and very powerful ministries.

We simply believe that absolutely all of the promises of both destruction and restoration will be fulfilled.  Every judgment of the Bible will be fulfilled to the exact letter of the law, although not necessarily to the exact letter of the KJV and other translations that by their own admissions in their forwards are following in the traditions of the KJV.  Those that have to be recompensed double for all of their sins and those that can't get out until they've paid the proverbial last penny, and those that have to give restitution 7 fold will do so.  All of the judgments of God are wise and when His judgments are in the earth, the world will learn righteousness.  All of the judgments of God are praiseworthy and should be sung of from coast to coast, border to border, and all around the world.  And we're assured in the Scriptures that all nations and all individuals will worship and praise Him according to Revelation 5:13 and several other places in that book and in the rest of the Psalms and Prophets of the Bible.

[willieH]

willieH: Hi NG!  :welcome:

Just a preface before I answer you, I use CAPS as an emphasis tool (not shouting through text usage)  :cloud9:

Just wanted to introduce myself and say Hi to all, I have not yet been sold on the universal reconciliation of all. However I do have a lot of questions I am seeking out about what I have been taught as truth concerning hell.

You might start with the actual definitions of the Hebrew and Greek words which are translated into the ENGLISH word, ...HELL! 

First... let's consider the ENGLISH word HELL... it is derived from the OLDE ENGLISH word HEL... which actually meant COVERED or UNSEEN... Cellars in which wine, vegetables, etc were stored were called "the Hel"... also, other ENGLISH words which gravitate to the TRUE meaning of this word (covered or unseen) are HELMET and HALLWAY...

OLD TESTAMENT HEBREW -- There is 1 word in Hebrew - SHEOL (which is found translated "GRAVE" 31 times and "HELL" 31 times)... The Jews did not preach or believe in HELL...  Also to be considered is the SEPTUAGINT which was a GREEK translation of the ENTIRE BIBLE, noted HADES as the word which was INTERCHANGEABLE and the GREEK equivalent of the HEBREW word SHEOL... (strongs Hebrew dictionary #H7585)

NEW TESTAMENT -- There are 3 different GREEK words translated into the 1 English word HELL.. they are:

(1) HADES it is translated HELL 10 times, but is also translated GRAVE 1 time, in 1 Cor 15:54... and in that verse it says (however you translate HADES) THAT it GETS ...NO... Victory! (strongs greek dictionary #G86)

(2) TARTARUS is translated HELL once in 2 Peter 2:2 which is defined in Strongs Exhaustive Concordance, as essentially the DEEPEST area of HADES... so for all intent, it means HADES as well... (strongs greek dictionary #G5020)

(3) GEHENNA ...this word actually means the Valley of the Sons of Hinnom, and was indeed a PHYSICAL location just outside Jerusalem, where garbage was burned, and the bodies of DEAD Jews which died in SHAME (via stoning or natural death) were cast instead of a Honorable burial which the Jewish nation held traditionally and heartfully in the pursuit of their beliefs...  It was used by CHRIST 10 times on only 4 separate occasions in over 1200 days of ministry.  This in itself, displays that it was not a teaching however it was percieved that was very HIGH in importance or very HIGH on His agenda... (strongs greek dictionary #G1097)

***  Before continuing... please note that NO WARNING of HELL was made by GOD to Adam & Eve... in fact the word SHEOL (Hebrew word translated "hell") doesnt even appear until Deut 32:22... which was a vast amount of time, in which a vast amount of people lived, and NOT a WORD was taught of this AWFUL and BLASPHEMOUS teaching to them...

It is not even found in the entire book of Genesis... wonder why?  Because HELL does NOT EXIST, except in the teaching of false religions.

***  One other noteworthy comment -- 1 John 4:18 says that FEAR is NOT a part of LOVE...  On the contrary, it says that PERFECT LOVE ...casts OUT FEAR... So if GOD is LOVE (which He IS), ...He is about CASTING such notions as "HELL", ...OUT!

HELL is without a parallel as the most FEARFUL entity ever considered by men... for it is a PLACE of TORMENT... which men propose shall NEVER END...  :sigh:

***  Also it is worthy to note that the (translated english) word "HELL" in any form is not found in the writings of John or Paul (with the exception of Hades translated grave) and does not appear in ACTS which is the testimony of the early GOSPEL going out, and the Early Church... Furthermore, it was used only once by Peter (tartarus), and once by James (Gehenna - which concerned the TONGUE and did not even relate to an afterlife firepit), ...So basically, ...it is displayed as a NON FACTOR in the teachings of CHRIST's Apostles...

I found this website because of questions I was seeking out after doing a lot of research on near-death experiences and the after life . . .

I guess I can start out with an easy question about what exactly you believe about people that die outside of belief in Jesus' death burial resurrection and the price he paid for the sin of all.

Here is a quick answer to consider... If JESUS paid for and TOOK AWAY -- ALL SIN... (which He did -- John 1:29)... what further payment is due?

Do you believe that people who die without putting there faith in Jesus do go to hell for a period of time to be chastized for there unbelief and eventually are saved or that immediatly after death they will have an opportunity to repent and believe thus entering in to relationship with Christ and no one spends time in hell?

Essentially HELL is an invented teaching of RELIGION, and the varying teachings of it, are not supported in the WORD of God...

Is universal salvation and universal reconciliation the same or different?
Mar 16:16  He who believes and is baptized will be saved; but he who does not believe will be condemned.

The word "condemned" (damned in KJV) actually means "JUDGED against"... and is is worthy to note that concerning JUDGMENT, ...Isaiah 26:9 states that when GOD's JUDGEMENTS are in the Earth, that the inhabitants will LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS.  Judgment is NOT a bad thing... it is a CORRECTIVE thing.

GOD LOVES the WORLD dear NarrowGate... and He does NOT ever CHANGE (Mal 3:6 / Heb 13:1 / James 1:17)

Thankyou and I am looking foward to growing in love, knowledge, and wisdom of our Lord Jesus!

Welcome new friend... may your association with Tentmaker be a very good, fruitful and enjoyable experience, and we are glad you are here!

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[firstborn888]

Hi NG and welcome!
- Byron

[aspiring son]

Welcome Narrow Gate. May God open your eyes and ears to the beautiful truths of the gospels. Hope you stay a while.

God Bless

[Pierac]

:hihat:  Narrow Gate, 

:welcome: to the Tentmaker

[Paul Hazelwood]

Welcome Narrow Gate

[albertx46]

Hi NarrowGate,

In my opinion, the so-called punishment is more like a purification process, as a Greek concordance of the Bible calls it as "correction." As long as we believe in Christ in this life, then the procedure will go easy with us. As to those who have yet to embrace Christ, honest guys would traverse that phase quickly, for God is Love and He is certainly just. Hence, the unscrupulous ones would sure need more time to know and meet our loving Father.

Just my naive and humble view on your question. People's opinions may vary but we are sure that God is just as well as benevolent.

BTW, there's an interesting article on the issue of the Jewish tradition related to this matter:
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/index.php?topic=2708.0