Hi Everyone,
My name's Jeff and I am an agnostic/atheist from the UK with an interest in Universalism.
Glad to have you here. Welcome
Ditto
A warm Welcome :icon_flower:
Welcome!
I'm a participant in the pursuit of Truth and Life in the likeness of Christ, the hope of glory. Come on in, the water's fine and there's room for any who are thirsty.
:cloud9: Welcome......
Thanks all.
I was raised in a strict Plymouth Brethren home (the Bible completely literal and hellfire preaching). I bought into it for many years but left when I started to encounter humanist philosophies which I still favour (bear in mind I'm 50 years old so have wighed these things up for many years).
Universalism interests me as it seems a much more coherent form of Christianity (taking OT and NT as a whole) than conscious eternal torment. I have read and studied the whole Bible (probably in more depth than many Christians) so am not coming to the table with only atheist/humanist knowledge.
Anyway - I have visited this site many times over the past few years but only now realised there was a forum (I come here mostly for the articles).
It sounds like you have a lot of wisdom to share with us. I would be interested to hear your position as it is now regarding these things. You say Atheist/Agnostic. Does that mean you are still not sure if there is a supreme being.
I spend a lot of time on a particular Atheist forum and have come to understand the Atheist position quite well.
I think I use agnostic just to remind myself that an absolute knowledge of anything is impossible for the human brain. However, the arguments for a supreme being (whether arguments from morality, design, prevention of infinite regress etc.. etc..) do not make me believe that it is anything but a very remote possibility; and so in the same way that I don't factor the tooth fairy or Horus or Jupiter into my daily life I don't feel the need to factor in Jehovah or Allah or Brahma etc..
Now some people would wave Pascal's wager at me and I would reply thus: for one thing if I just pretend to believe for the sake of winning the wager then any supreme being worth his, her or its salt would know that I was pretending. For another thing I could just as easily choose to believe in the wrong supreme being and then i'd be in for it.. :bigGrin:
Atheism is a non-prophet organization :laughing7:
Jeff any reason why you choose UR and for example not Islam?
Or are you looking into all kind of religions?
QuoteI think I use agnostic just to remind myself that an absolute knowledge of anything is impossible for the human brain. However, the arguments for a supreme being (whether arguments from morality, design, prevention of infinite regress etc.. etc..) do not make me believe that it is anything but a very remote possibility; and so in the same way that I don't factor the tooth fairy or Horus or Jupiter into my daily life I don't feel the need to factor in Jehovah or Allah or Brahma etc..
Now some people would wave Pascal's wager at me and I would reply thus: for one thing if I just pretend to believe for the sake of winning the wager then any supreme being worth his, her or its salt would know that I was pretending. For another thing I could just as easily choose to believe in the wrong supreme being and then I'd be in for it..
I have been a member on the WWGHA forum for some time now and it has given me new perspective on a lot of things. I'm assuming that you are familiar with this site, but if not it's Why Won't God Heal Amputees.com.
I now have a few new friends who also happen to be Atheists. They eat Christians, Jews, and Muslims for lunch and take every opportunity to disprove anything and everything. For the most part the people who troll the forum are just looking for a fight, but there are a few who genuinely want to find a reason for some kind of belief.
One in particular has become a good friend and we are very similar in our thinking. What I have realized more than anything is that it is a short leap off of the fence onto either side of the question. He falls on one side and I on the other but we both reached our conclusion from roughly the same information.
Belief in God cannot come from any irrefutable evidence. It is purely a matter of faith. The many proofs that Christians have come up with are not proofs at all. They are simply possibilities that seem to be proof when you look at them through the filter of faith. Likewise they seem empty and subjective through the filter of logic.
I just wanted you to know that there are theists out there who understand your thinking and don't condemn you for it. I look forward to talking with you.
Quote from: JeffA on January 07, 2009, 12:13:53 PM
I think I use agnostic just to remind myself that an absolute knowledge of anything is impossible for the human brain. However, the arguments for a supreme being (whether arguments from morality, design, prevention of infinite regress etc.. etc..) do not make me believe that it is anything but a very remote possibility; and so in the same way that I don't factor the tooth fairy or Horus or Jupiter into my daily life I don't feel the need to factor in Jehovah or Allah or Brahma etc..
Now some people would wave Pascal's wager at me and I would reply thus: for one thing if I just pretend to believe for the sake of winning the wager then any supreme being worth his, her or its salt would know that I was pretending. For another thing I could just as easily choose to believe in the wrong supreme being and then i'd be in for it.. :bigGrin:
Welcome, Jeff. What part of the UK are you from?
Pascal's wager is so misused... probably because it's very misunderstood, as well as ineffective for what it's typically used for.
You're right though; universalism is a much more coherent form of christianity; in fact, I'd say it's the
only coherent form. :laughing7:
ali; I used to spend a lot of time on WWGHA myself. I learned a lot there. It was one of a number of influences that caused me to start questioning what I'd always been taught, and one of the things that helped lead me toward universal reconciliation.
Quoteali; I used to spend a lot of time on WWGHA myself. I learned a lot there. It was one of a number of influences that caused me to start questioning what I'd always been taught, and one of the things that helped lead me toward universal reconciliation.
It's strange to find a source of deeper faith from talking to Atheists, but that is exactly what I found. And a more honest faith. Thanks for sharing that with me.
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