Struggling with UR

[Tom]

     Hello, everyone! My name is Ryan, although I often go by "Jesrin" on the web. :) I am 17 years old and currently reside in Iowa. I have been browsing Tentmaker for some time now and have been struggling with the idea of Universal Reconciliation. I finally decided that I needed to register and discuss the topic with people who have done extensive research and seem to have a strong understanding of what the Bible says about UR. While I currently do not believe in UR, I am open to learning about it and giving it fair consideration. My hope is that God, through my discussions here, will lead me to His Truth and His Peace. In all honesty, I really WANT to believe that God will one day save everyone, but I am not fully convinced yet. Both ETers and URers have strong points to support their beliefs. It just serves to make everything confusing. :dunno2:

     A little about me. I have been raised in a Christian home all my life. Due to some issues with people in our church, my family was church-less for about 7 years. We "church hopped" until we found a Christian family that accepted us, loved us, and helped us grow. That was when I was 12 years old. I accepted Christ when I was young--maybe 5 or 6?--but I didn't take my relationship with Him seriously until my Freshman Year in highschool. I am currently a Senior. God has been working in my life in powerful, powerful ways. I can honestly say that I am not the same person I was Freshman Year. I have been profoundly changed. The Lord is amazing that way.

     I have always struggled with the doctrine of hell. My discomfort with it was not provoked by anyone else's ideas; my objections to the idea of eternal punishment came from my own difficulties reconciling love and eternal torment. I would go to youth group and hear about Jesus, the Savior of the World. Then I would hear about hell--a place where people would go to burn forever. FOREVER. I would spend hours thinking about the FOREVER part of hell. The youth pastor described it like this: "Think of the worst pain you've ever experienced. Got it? Now imagine that pain multiplied by a billion times. That's the pain you will experience forever in hell." I couldn't believe that! I remember voicing my concerns to my mom after the fact--I think I was 12 or 13? I asked her how a loving God could sentence anyone to eternal punishment, and based upon my reading here, it seems like many others have asked the same question. I did extensive research into the subject and, after long consideration, became an Annihilationist. It was the only way I could reconcile God's justice, His love, and all the instances of hell in the Bible. That is the view I currently hold today.

     I look forward to meeting all of you. I hope that, through our discussions, God will reveal His truth--not just to me, but to all of us. Thanks in advance for introducing yourselves! God bless!

     - Jesrin

Hi Jesrin. You were brought to the Tentmaker Forum by the spirit of God for a good reason. The church has a history of torturing and killing people just for reading the word of God, and the church still considers it heresy to believe the word of God correctly translated rather than the doctrine of church tradition. It makes no sense that a loving God would torture in fire forever anybody let alone most of mankind because it simply is not true. The word "hell" is an Old English word the King James used to translate the Greek "hades" literally meaning "unseen," and it refers to the "unseen" state of a dead soul. The concept of "hell" got distorted by intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" twelve times in the King James Version and the Douay-Rheims Catholic Version in the following verses: Matthew 5:22,29,30, 10:28, 18:9, 23:15,33; Mark 9:43,45,47; Luke 12:5; James 3:6. "Gehenna" actually refers to the ravine of Hinnom, southwest of Jerusalem, used by the ancient apostate Jews to sacrifice their children in fire to Moloch, an Ammonite god, and later used to burn the corpses of criminals condemned to death as it will be in the coming eon (Isaiah 66:23,24). Christ did not use the word "hell" because he didn't speak English. When Christ referred to "Gehenna," the Jews knew he meant the dump outside the city of Jerusalem not a mythical place of torture in fire forever. The intentional mistranslation of "Gehenna" as "hell" is used to support the myth of "hell fire." The church, failing to suppress the word of God by killing people with fire, changed the word of God to terrorize people with torture in fire forever after they die. And "the lake of fire" is obviously not "hell" because even the King James Version says "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14).

The common misconception of "hell" is a lie perpetrated by the Roman Empire to control its subjects with fear, and it was one of the lies that wasn't purged in the Protestant Reformation. A correct translation of the written word of God does not contain the words "hell" or "church." Satan's most effective deception is the church using corrupt translation and the tradition of man to invalidate the word of God.

"You invalidate the word of God because of your tradition." (Matthew 15:6)

"For such are false apostles, fraudulent workers, being transfigured into apostles of Christ. And no marvel, for Satan himself is being transfigured into a messenger of light. It is no great thing, then, if his servants also are being transfigured as dispensers of righteousness -- whose consummation shall be according to their acts." (2 Corinthians 11:13-15)

Words used in common bibles to express the concept of eternity are inaccurate translation of variations of the Greek "aion," literally translated "eon," and the corresponding Hebrew "olam," which refer to a period of time not endless time. The Greek "aionion," translated as "eternal" in the King James Version, is the adjective of "aion." The adjective of a period of time can not describe endless time despite the fact that some references biased to church doctrine may say so.

The written word of God is concerned with the eons, but the eons have a consummation. Death is the last enemy to be abolished before the consummation of the eons. Then we will have unending life, but only God is eternal meaning always was and always will be. God is the source of all, and everything else had a beginning and came from God.

Immortality of the soul is the philosophy of Plato, adopted as church doctrine, that originally came from the serpent's lie in the garden of Eden.

"And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4)

The dead are reposing. As far as their consciousness is concerned, from the moment they die, the very next thing they will know is that they are alive again regardless of how long they have been dead. There is no consciousness in death.

"The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever." (Ecclesiastes 9:5)

God's ultimate plan is not to torture the majority of humanity in fire forever, and teachers of that false church doctrine should believe the word of God. The word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ. Those who believe the word of God regarding the reconciliation of all are accused of heresy by the church. Heresy is simply a belief that does not conform to church doctrine, but church doctrine does not conform to the word of God. Even the corrupt translations used by the church contain the verse that says all will be reconciled through Christ.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

So the question is, do you believe the church or the word of God? Be consoled that your loved ones who have died are reposing, not alive in hell or purgatory.

The soul is the sensation resulting from the combination of an organic body with breath or spirit.

"And forming is Yahweh Elohim the human of soil from the ground, and He is blowing into his nostrils the breath of the living, and becoming is the human a living soul." (Genesis 2:7)

Death is a return.

"I know that You are turning me back to death, To that house appointed for all the living." (Job 30:23)

The body returns to the soil.

"In the sweat of your face shall you eat your bread, till you return to the ground, for from it are you taken, for soil you are, and to soil are you returning." (Genesis 3:19)

The spirit returns to God.

"And the soil returns to the earth just as it was, And the spirit, it returns to the One, Elohim, Who gave it." (Ecclesiastes 12:7)

And the soul returns to the "unseen."

"The wicked shall return to the unseen, All the nations, forgetful of Elohim." (Psalms 9:17)

"For Thou wilt not be forsaking my soul in the unseen, Nor wilt Thou be giving Thy Benign One to be acquainted with decay." (Acts 2:27)

"perceiving this before, he speaks concerning the resurrection of the Christ, that He was neither forsaken in the unseen, nor was His flesh acquainted with decay" (Acts 2:31)

The word of God says the soul dies.

"The soul that is sinning--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:4)

"The soul that does sin--it does die." (Ezekiel 18:20)

Christ alone has immortality.

"He is King of kings and Lord of lords, Who alone has immortality, making His home in light inaccessible, Whom not one of mankind perceived nor can be perceiving, to Whom be honor and might eonian! Amen!" (1 Timothy 6:15,16)

Believers will be immortalized when we are snatched away to meet Christ in the air (1 Thessalonians 4:13-17), and unbelievers condemned to "the second death" will be immortalized when death is abolished at the consummation of the eons (1 Corinthians 15:22-26).

The church says most people will be tortured in "hell fire" forever, but the word of God says all will be reconciled through Christ so that God may be all in all.

"through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20)

"Yet now Christ has been roused from among the dead, the Firstfruit of those who are reposing. For since, in fact, through a man came death, through a Man, also, comes the resurrection of the dead. For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be vivified. Yet each in his own class: the Firstfruit, Christ; thereupon those who are Christ's in His presence; thereafter the consummation, whenever He may be giving up the kingdom to His God and Father, whenever He should be nullifying all sovereignty and all authority and power. For He must be reigning until He should be placing all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy is being abolished: death. For He subjects all under His feet. Now whenever He may be saying that all is subject, it is evident that it is outside of Him Who subjects all to Him. Now, whenever all may be subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also shall be subjected to Him Who subjects all to Him, that God may be All in all." (1 Corinthians 15:20-28)

"seeing that out of Him and through Him and for Him is all: to Him be the glory for the eons! Amen!" (Romans 11:36)

Here is a link to a website where you'll find the best translation of the word of God that I've found available for free download. http://concordant.org/ It really makes a difference which version you read because it changes the whole story of God's ultimate plan for the universe. You'll also find a lot of good information to answer your questions on the site. God bless you, brother.

[jbertonbounds]

I agree jbb...I have a lot "Baptist" with some Pentecostal persuasion leanings...but then there are some other things that just don't fit.  I wonder sometimes if I could just go to the old congregation for some praise and worship and fellowship, along with a little "structure" and Godly influence - but as you say, where and how does it all fit...

Sounds nice, but that's what I was trying to do Sunday night.  I thought since the leader of the group did not believe in hell that I would not hear that false teaching.  WRONG!  And besides, there were a number of things that weren't outright wrong altogether, but were somewhat distorted (if that makes sense).  Like the teaching that if you believe in Jesus, you will have eternal life.  This is true, but they base that on the numerous scriptures that, if properly translated, actually teach that belief leads to eonian life, life for the kingdom age to come, not eternal life.  It comes from the mistranslation of the word aionios.  This eonian life is for the "especially" saved of 1 Tim 4.10.  The knowledge that we will have eternal life comes from the fact that our bodies will be sown corruptible, yet raised incorruptible and given immortality (according to Paul - 1 Cor 15.54).  Besides that, there are other things that people don't normally think about, like the fact that some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services.  :doh:  I won't even go into the problem of idolatry (they don't call it that, but...) in the church organizations.  All that to say, I don't recommend attending praise and worship services in Babylon!

[Lazarus Short]

  ...some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services. 

I recall that back in my SDA days, someone in an SDA magazine stated that "...you can smell the sulfur in the hymnals..."  I never forgot that, and I think it is easy to see where he was coming from.

[jbertonbounds]

  ...some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services. 

I recall that back in my SDA days, someone in an SDA magazine stated that "...you can smell the sulfur in the hymnals..."  I never forgot that, and I think it is easy to see where he was coming from.

Sulphur?
What does this mean? :dunno2:

[marie glen]

Very good,

but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.

peace.

Good point, Chuck.
However, most ET'ers are not aware that death and "hell" are to be thrown into the lake of fire.  They believe "hell" lasts forever.  Just ask some of them.  They actually believe "hell" and the "lake of fire" are the same thing.  Then by the time you explain that to them, they are so defensive, you have lost them.

But, yes, we do need to be prepared to explain what the lake of fire really is.  A few will listen.  A few.

It's amazing really.. what they most need is to really read the Word of God.. I'm happy I was a spiritual hermit.. reading and studying on my own.. which was reading and studying the Word, as opposed to reading, listening and studying on what other persons say about the Word. Many times I could start to read something someone wrote, and simply could not continue. It ringing so loudly untrue..
                    :gimmefive:

[Tom]

Very good,

but someone will ask you about the lake of fire, we know the lake of fire isnt hell, it being the second death, this really is where the rubber meets the road, hell being a word that has caused so much confusion, once we get past that with those indoctrinated, the lake of fire/second death will be the topic.

peace.

Good point, Chuck.
However, most ET'ers are not aware that death and "hell" are to be thrown into the lake of fire.  They believe "hell" lasts forever.  Just ask some of them.  They actually believe "hell" and the "lake of fire" are the same thing.  Then by the time you explain that to them, they are so defensive, you have lost them.

But, yes, we do need to be prepared to explain what the lake of fire really is.  A few will listen.  A few.

It's amazing really.. what they most need is to really read the Word of God.. I'm happy I was a spiritual hermit.. reading and studying on my own.. which was reading and studying the Word, as opposed to reading, listening and studying on what other persons say about the Word. Many times I could start to read something someone wrote, and simply could not continue. It ringing so loudly untrue..
                    :gimmefive:

Amen, sister. Read the word of God! And, if you have an accurate translation, it will be easier to understand.

Regarding "the lake of fire," this is my understanding.

"Hell" is obviously not "the lake of fire" because the King James Version says "hell" will be cast into "the lake of fire" (Revelation 20:14).

"And the Adversary who is deceiving them was cast into the lake of fire and sulphur, where the wild beast and where the false prophet are also. And they shall be tormented day and night for the eons of the eons" (Revelation 20:10). These three all must be spirit beings not subject to death because immortality of the soul is a lie. "And saying is the serpent to the woman, 'Not to die shall you be dying'" (Genesis 3:4). People die, and obviously fire kills people.

Those who die as unbelievers who stand before "the great white throne" and are condemned to "the second death-the lake of fire" will not be "tormented day and night for the eons of the eons." They will be dead ("the second death"). "The living know that they shall die, But the dead know nothing whatsoever" (Ecclesiastes 9:5). They will not experience "eonian life" in Christ while believers are immortalized, but they will be immortalized at the consummation of the eons when death is abolished and God will be all in all (1 Corinthians 15:20-28).

That is the difference between church doctrine and the word of God, and it is all possible because..."through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens" (Colossians 1:20). That verse that clearly shows universal reconciliation is even in the corrupt versions used buy the church.

[Lazarus Short]

  ...some of their distorted doctrine is depicted even in a number of the hymns sung in their services. 

I recall that back in my SDA days, someone in an SDA magazine stated that "...you can smell the sulfur in the hymnals..."  I never forgot that, and I think it is easy to see where he was coming from.

Sulphur?
What does this mean? :dunno2:

I think the fellow was hinting that some of the theo(il)logical ideas presented in some hymns are inspired by someone not God.

[Nathan]

Good post TomH.
------------------------
I'm more than happy to base my doctrinal beliefs on the scriptures - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed. I think it's not only OK, but very necessary.  Much better than my own imagination.  I'm reminded of the Bereans.  I believe it's faulty translations, our blinded eyes, and (in some cases in the hierarchy) hardened hearts that lead to gross doctrinal errors - rather than relying on the Holy Spirit to interpret, translate, and clarify the written Words of God.  I believe in these times God is clarifying and revealing, while at the same time the enemy is at work in heightened deception.  Powers and principalities in high places.   "Interesting" times.  Test all things.

Amen, brother.

Yeah . . I don't support that much anymore.  I base my doctrine on relationship . . .the Word that speaks within me sets the tone and seats me at the table . . .from there, when I read Scripture, it has a whole other dimension to it.  If I base it on what I read, I'm essentially building according to what my mind interprets, that seems to contradict the instruction we were given to walk in the spirit and not in the flesh.  Everyone has an interpretation and if it's based on their amount of time studying, reasoning and reckoning, the chances are strong that what they'll end up with will have to be torn back down again because it wasn't the Father who built it, but it was the mind of men . . .good intentions mind you, but unreliable results.

I've learned first-hand what it means to "hold on to things of this earth loosely".  I used to think that it meant houses and cars and such . . .but I believe it goes much deeper than that . . .hold on to what you believe loosely because as we grow, we let go of what got us here so we can embrace what will take us "there".  The revivals of old were wonderful for that time and place back then, but I'd never pray for that old time revival to return to where I am today . . .daily manna . . .a fresh word . . .a new morning . . .everything is a process.  Even doctrinal matters.  The issue I have with traditional religions is that they've painted themselves into such a corner that they can't move forward without admitting what they've been embracing and forcing on others all this time has lost it's savor . . .  Traditional denominations can't admit that maybe what they project is off-base.  But I can as and individual . . .and I have . . many times.  Too many that I'd like to admit to.  But that's all part of our relationship . . . the Scripture still is very much so relevant . . .but not from a literal standard as much as a spiritual one.  Either way, it's still a Word of Life.

[jabcat]

I agree that the scriptures are spiritual in nature and a Word of Life, and that we have to have a relationship 1:1 with Jesus Messiah.

I don't see the scriptures - accurately translated, Spirit-revealed - separate from relationship or walking in the Spirit.  I believe it all ties together integrally.

[ded2daworld]

I'd like to hear from Jesrin, the original poster on this thread. This was his only post so I'm curious. :dontknow: