Hello everyone, I decided to make an account on the tentmaker forum after much time of "lurking". and reading. I am 17 years old and from Romania. First I want to say finding TM is one of the best things that happened to me in a while, because I couldn't accept ET and still believe God loves everyone.
I had no idea UR was even considered so I was close to giving up on believing in God before finding Gary Amirault's great site. The problem of ET probably wouldn't have concerned me that much today if it weren't for the tragedies my family and I had to go through recently.
This change took place last year when both my aunt and my grandfather died in a manner of few months. It was a very hard time for me and I didn't want to believe they were really gone and started to question my belief in God. I couldn't even go to their funerals, I was too sad and didn't see anything good in that, only could've made me more depressed. "Why did God let them die, although everyone prayed for them? " was always on my mind. Then I thought they were probably condemned to hell since they didn't go to church and confess sins to a priest.
I thought it was unjust for them to be punished eternally because they were both good people and loved me much. I didn't have a lot of discussions on religious matters n my family, but as far as I know my aunt did read the Bible and didn't go to church and my grandfather said he couldn't understand the Bible, so would that condemn him to hell? Afterwards I thought about all the people who died in similar situations or never even heard about Jesus Christ. I wondered how could anyone believe in ET and still love God; I just couldn't do that, so reading about UR was a great relief.
Having said that, I still have periods of depression when I feel alone and I wonder if UR is the truth, if God loves everyone why He allows suffering, why wasn't UR made more clear in the Bible, why there are still many more believers in ET and why exactly UR is considered heresy, what if God doesn't exist and atheists or other religions are right etc.Sometimes I feel like I don't deserve to be loved by God because I doubt so much... :sigh:
There are things about the Bible hard for me to understand properly, especially in the OT, like why God only revealed Himself to Israel and not the whole world and seemed to love only them, if Noah's Flood was global, if the creation account in Genesis contradicts science and evolution, and even in the NT like why Jesus hasn't returned in 2000 years ( or if it's not about a physical return at all) the passages about everlasting punishment, weeping and gnashing of teeth, sheep and goats always pop into my mind. Although aionios doesn't mean eternal or everlasting, it seems to me that "age-abiding" must mean something like very long time :dontknow:
I am sorry my first post is this long but I had to say all this and hear what you think about it. Can you help me with my struggles? :sigh:
Hey my young friend, lay the burden down. God has led you to this place for a purpose. He has heard your heart and this is one way he uses to answer the prayers . . .is he real? A resounding YES! You will be experiencing more of him for yourself and as you do, the doubting mind in you will find rest as well.
Why does God allow suffering? I can only tell you what I see on it. I'm sure many others will be chiming in as well. But for me, it's not that he "allows" it. We have this idea that God is in this infinite control room and everything in his creation is under the control of his hands . . .buttons and dials and volume levels . . .some adjust the rain, others flooding . . .earth quakes . .death, tortures . .on and on . . .but I don't see it that way at all. I see this realm as the realm of KNOWLEDGE of GOOD and EVIL. That means we are governed by the eternal measuring of what is good and what is bad. That's how life on this earth is governed, by the scales of good versus evil. But "in" this realm, the power that you say God controls, he doesn't, he gave that to "us". And "through him" we can change our circumstances and the circumstances of those around us. But this realm is a realm of death and decay because it's governed by the balance of knowledge . .the measuring of good and evil.
The reason Adam and Eve ate of the tree of Knowledge of good and evil was because they wanted to be "as God". And 'in" God there is a BALANCE of that knowledge, but the tree that keeps that balance is the tree of life. But Adam turned "from" that tree and ate of the tree of Knowledge. It wasn't meant for him to eat of it because it created the "imbalance" of his nature. At that point, life changed for him from spirit to flesh. I know this is probably too deep and that's fine because it's not intended for your head, but for your heart, your spirit . . .just read and move on in it . . .it'll take on a life of it's own in you. But in short "that's" why we see all of the evil things happening . . .it goes with the realm we live in. The miracle is, when God manifests in us, it changes the atmosphere around us and we can walk through this realm of death and still have his unexplainable peace.
Is UR all of THE truth? I'd have to say no, it's not ALL the truth but I do believe it is so much closer to the truth than what the doctrines of men have conjured up on the other end. I believe there's much more life in this, much more peace, much more joy . . .the more I study both UR and the aspects of the gifts of the spirit, I find they are much more active in those who've given themselves over to a God who has saved the entire human race, than those who've chosen to believe he's only saved a small fraction . . . in our life here on earth, I don't think we'll ever come into the complete fulness of TRUTH, but as I said, I think the affects of UR are much more in alignment with God's truth than any other doctrine out there.
Why Israel and not the whole world? I'd say timing for one. God did save the whole world, but in the old testament, it was all as an example. God is a god of personal relationship. Taking Israel out from all the other nations is like selecting "you" out of a crowd of thousands and lavishing his love on you as a person, an individual. Also, his son was to come through that one nation, a bloodline in preparation for the Lamb to birth into . . .so for that reason as well, Jesus wasn't born from just any nation, but from "the" nation, hand-picked by God himself. The over-all message is all about Jesus, everything else is secondary.
That's all I have time for now . . .I'm sure others will be jumping in soon if they haven't already.
Thank you Nathan! :happy3:
Excellent, it's hard to add to that :thumbsup:
:welcome: Eduard
Enjoy your stay. :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Hello and welcome to the board.....
Hi Eduard!
I love Nathan's reply and I say amen to it!
QuoteSometimes I feel like I don't deserve to be loved by God because I doubt so much...
I know you are young Nathan, but picture having a son of your own... would you hate him if he doubted your love? No! Wouldn't you only try to love him more? Would you ever give up on him or ever stop loving him? Wouldn't you want the best for him in all things? God is the Father of all spirits and He certainly loves you and your Grandfather and Aunt too. My advice to you is to throw your doubts away. It's actually quite easy to do, I have learned that. I used to doubt like crazy, now when I have a doubt I just turn it around. For example, if a thought like "God couldn't love me, i'm too sinful" entered my head I would turn it around with "God loves me always, and is always concerned for me and my good. He sent His Son to pay for my sins, not to condemn me." Or a thought such as "God doesn't exist" you could turn that around by thinking on the beautiful creation that is all around us that could not possibly have happened by chance (for example our bodies are amazingly complex).
Be blessed here Eduard!
Thank you all so much for welcoming and trying to help me... :boyheart:
Hello and welcome!
There's a lot of study material at Scholar's Corner.
http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html
I believe that the more you learn about UR, the more convinced you will become of it. I remember when I first joined TM. I was very neurotic about ET, and UR, to me, seemed just a doctrine of convenience. I would read rebuttals by ET believers and think, darn, they have better arguments than UR people. UR'ers were accused of twisting scriptures, taking things out of contest, and using extra-biblical arguments to make their case. At first that seemed to be the case. However, over time I noticed its the ET peeps themselves who're doing this. I'll give you 3 classic examples:
a] ET'er: "A sin against an infinite God calls for an infinite punishment". Really? Book and verse, please. Or was this an extra-biblical argument after all?
b] ET'er: "You're wrong about UR. Let's ask Jesus if all will be saved. *cites Luke 13:23-30, in which Jesus is talking about the narrow gate, and how few will find it.*" Here the ET'er is taking things out of context. The passage isn't about how many people in general would be saved from an endless Hell, but rather about how many Jews would be saved from the fate of being banned from the 1,000 year Kingdom. See http://www.tentmaker.org/FAQ/22.html for the explanation.
c] ET'er: "1 Timothy chapter 4 states 'The Savior of All Men, Especially of Those Who Believe', however the word 'malista' that's usually translated to 'especially' should actually be translated to 'that is', 'in otherwords' or 'exclusively'this time'". Why this time, if it's translated to 'especially' every other time?
See? Who's twisting scripture, taking things out of context and using extra-biblical arguments?
Thanks Axeal, there's great stuff in the Scholars Corner and FAQ that I hadn't noticed! :happy3:
The most common argument against UR I've heard around here is that nobody going to "hell" somehow makes Christ's sacrifice on the Cross useless. I've no idea how that makes sense, unless they mean ET instead of UR :laughing7:
100% saved makes Christ's sacrifice on the Cross useless.
0% saved makes Christ's sacrifice on the Cross useless.
5% saved makes Christ's sacrifice on the Cross perfect.
:dontknow:
All are saved BECAUSE of Jesus sacrifice.
Without Jesus everybody would die and stay dead for ever.
Quote from: Eduard on June 28, 2011, 06:44:06 PM
Thanks Axeal, there's great stuff in the Scholars Corner and FAQ that I hadn't noticed! :happy3:
The most common argument against UR I've heard around here is that nobody going to "hell" somehow makes Christ's sacrifice on the Cross useless. I've no idea how that makes sense, unless they mean ET instead of UR :laughing7:
:2thumbs:
:cloud9: :thumbsup:Welcome
Welcome. Hope you enjoy your time here. :bigGrin: