Tentmaker Forum

Hello everyone!  I've been lurking around for awhile now. I really enjoy the articles and discussions here. Part of what lead me here months ago, was because I felt sick to my stomach,  when a group of Hebrew Israelites said that nearly everyone was going to hell. These people also said we had to follow the Old Testament law strictly, or else God was going to be done with us. Unfortunately, this was all too much for my little brain to gasp. However, after reading the likes of this brilliant website, and people like Martin Zander, I've recovered! So, I want to say thank you to everyone here.  :3

Welcome aboard friend. Now you can experience the joy of what it really means when we read God is love and He will save everyone.  :banana:

Quote from: joeteekay on August 10, 2016, 05:30:16 AM
Welcome aboard friend. Now you can experience the joy of what it really means when we read God is love and He will save everyone.  :banana:

Amen !..I feel on cloud 9 now compared compared to how I felt when I believed in 'eternal hell'..I LOVE other humans way more now I KNOW God really does love them and is going to save everybody in the end  !..I am a much nicer person now...hallelujah, praise Jesus !..thank you, Jesus !!!. :banana: :banana: :banana: :dsunny: :HeartThrob:

Quote from: MinakoChan on August 10, 2016, 05:01:52 AM
Hello everyone!  I've been lurking around for awhile now. I really enjoy the articles and discussions here. Part of what lead me here months ago, was because I felt sick to my stomach,  when a group of Hebrew Israelites said that nearly everyone was going to hell. These people also said we had to follow the Old Testament law strictly, or else God was going to be done with us. Unfortunately, this was all too much for my little brain to gasp. However, after reading the likes of this brilliant website, and people like Martin Zander, I've recovered! So, I want to say thank you to everyone here.  :3

Hi and welcome !  :dsunny:

Quote from: MinakoChan on August 10, 2016, 05:01:52 AM
Hello everyone!  I've been lurking around for awhile now. I really enjoy the articles and discussions here. Part of what lead me here months ago, was because I felt sick to my stomach,  when a group of Hebrew Israelites said that nearly everyone was going to hell. These people also said we had to follow the Old Testament law strictly, or else God was going to be done with us. Unfortunately, this was all too much for my little brain to gasp. However, after reading the likes of this brilliant website, and people like Martin Zander, I've recovered! So, I want to say thank you to everyone here.  :3

Are you talking about the black ones on the street that are famous on youtube?

Anyways, welcome! This website saved my sanity many times from my fear of eternal hell. There are good people here and always seem to have a answer for all of my odd questions lol.

WELCOME!

Quote from: idontknow on August 10, 2016, 05:43:27 AM

Quote from: MinakoChan on August 10, 2016, 05:01:52 AM
Hello everyone!  I've been lurking around for awhile now. I really enjoy the articles and discussions here. Part of what lead me here months ago, was because I felt sick to my stomach,  when a group of Hebrew Israelites said that nearly everyone was going to hell. These people also said we had to follow the Old Testament law strictly, or else God was going to be done with us. Unfortunately, this was all too much for my little brain to gasp. However, after reading the likes of this brilliant website, and people like Martin Zander, I've recovered! So, I want to say thank you to everyone here.  :3

Are you talking about the black ones on the street that are famous on youtube?

Anyways, welcome! This website saved my sanity many times from my fear of eternal hell. There are good people here and always seem to have a answer for all of my odd questions lol.

First I went to say, thank you for the kind welcomes! idontknow, those are the exact people!

Welcome to the Tent MinakoChan  :welcome: This website and forum has helped me see the Bible in a new light and also helped me understand more about the salvation of all mankind in due time. God Bless You

Welcome Minako!

yea, I hav heard them preaching on the streets of NYC. Such delusion and hate. Lord, have mercy.



Welcome Minaka!

Hello MinakoChan and welcome to TM.

You quoted: Hebrew Israelites said that nearly everyone was going to hell. These people also said we had to follow the Old Testament law strictly, or else God was going to be done with us.

Well, how does one keep the law of Moses? It's impossible for a fallen man/woman to achieve God's perfect standard. Only through Christ is this possible!
He has fulfilled the law in us! Those people you heard were woefully ignorant of the truth. As for hell, there is no such place. My one hope when I stand before God, is Jesus Christ.

God bless, glad to have you here.  :2c:

Jock.  :Peace2:

Hebrew Israelites? That's a strange term they sound like a. Jews and b. the only sort of Israelites. Are there really Israelites that aren't to some degree Hebrew?

I'm guessing by the way people here are talking is that these people claim to be Christian and therefore, most probably, are neither Jewish, Hebrew or Israelite all of which I would expect a. to have a different idea about Eschatology and b. to be wrong.

Welcome, MinakoChan! I really wouldn't worry about what they have to say just worry about what the Bible says which assures us that they are wrong. It also assures us we're wrong on a lot of things but not this one, it's clear on this one.

     Welcome MinakoChan  !!

  Until we   can hear  Jesus Voice  ...     THE WATERS FROM ABOVE  the earth and not below  , the earthly sensual and devilish  voices of   the dragons flood of lies speaking against Gods   HOLY  SPIRIT OF LIFE  , we have not even begun to live the Life in Christ a new      :dsunny:

The earth,  flesh and blood bodies ,  our own mortality  ''helped the woman / True  Church''   BODY OF CHRIST /   truth and Life      and swallowed up this dragons flood  of filth and lies against God , It is His own fire and light  of jealousy and Love   that will dry up    the earth  and all the watery graves  mankind has been drowning in for centuries     :dsunny:

Voice of many waters come and drink of the waters of Life freely , out of the belly will flow the living waters 


  1Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth....


Ezekiel 43:2
and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.

1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal.

Revelation 1:15
His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.


waters of Life  freely  New Heaven and a New Earth
...5And the One seated on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are faithful and true." 6And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son....


Isaiah 55:1
"Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

John 4:10
Jesus answered, "If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."



Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come--the Almighty.

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd. He will lead them to fountains of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Revelation 10:6
And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: "There will be no more delay!

Revelation 16:17
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, "It is done!"

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Let the one who hears say, "Come!" And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

the LIVING WORD IS LIVING WATERS /VOICE  whom is calling us   to be filled with Life after all the devils  lies have been burned out of us  by the fire of His loving Jealousy    , God is a consuming fire   and now be filled with  the truth and waters of Life  in    this new heaven and the new earth  made by His love and desire for all mankind to a part of   , now is the time  , our salvation is nearer than when we first believed in JESUS CHRIST  THE SAVIOR  OF ALL mankind especially those whom believe    right now!  ....
John 11
I am the resurrection and the Life  He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.


26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

 :welcome: MinakoChan!! And God bless! ..I don't know how any believer functions believing such a thing! :faint: And how cold and unloving a God must they believe in! :mshock: (oh dear!)

:hiya: And welcome to "the tent" - we're so happy to have you here!!

Quote from: eaglesway on August 10, 2016, 09:54:46 AM
yea, I hav heard them preaching on the streets of NYC. Such delusion and hate. Lord, have mercy.



Welcome Minaka!

check out Angela Cummings on YT..she travels the world preaching 'hell fire' on the streets..supported by fundy churches...watched her vids...never seen her make a single convert only cause public disturbances, anger, hurt and hostility..goodness knows how much damage people like her do to the cause of Christ, must turn many against it.

Thanks for all of the new replies! I'm still combing through so I can respond properly. :3

Quote from: darryl on August 11, 2016, 12:45:36 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on August 10, 2016, 09:54:46 AM
yea, I hav heard them preaching on the streets of NYC. Such delusion and hate. Lord, have mercy.



Welcome Minaka!

check out Angela Cummings on YT..she travels the world preaching 'hell fire' on the streets..supported by fundy churches...watched her vids...never seen her make a single convert only cause public disturbances, anger, hurt and hostility..goodness knows how much damage people like her do to the cause of Christ, must turn many against it.

Oh i just hate to see that sort of thing! People also post memes of a turn or burn nature also! Images of people burning alive.. faces melting.. Geesh! :mshock: :eek: I think that's the easy way to 'preach'! I mean what do you really have to know to shout that sort of stuff? But you can become real famous.. Please pardon my judgmental attitude! I can't help thinking the whole 'hell' thing blasphemes God's pure character every day!

You're pardoned. You shouldn't really need to ask you're so obviously right.

Quote from: marie glen on August 11, 2016, 04:48:44 PM

Quote from: darryl on August 11, 2016, 12:45:36 AM

Quote from: eaglesway on August 10, 2016, 09:54:46 AM
yea, I hav heard them preaching on the streets of NYC. Such delusion and hate. Lord, have mercy.



Welcome Minaka!

check out Angela Cummings on YT..she travels the world preaching 'hell fire' on the streets..supported by fundy churches...watched her vids...never seen her make a single convert only cause public disturbances, anger, hurt and hostility..goodness knows how much damage people like her do to the cause of Christ, must turn many against it.

Oh i just hate to see that sort of thing! People also post memes of a turn or burn nature also! Images of people burning alive.. faces melting.. Geesh! :mshock: :eek: I think that's the easy way to 'preach'! I mean what do you really have to know to shout that sort of stuff? But you can become real famous.. Please pardon my judgmental attitude! I can't help thinking the whole 'hell' thing blasphemes God's pure character every day!

AMEN SIS MARIE , IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES !BLASPHEME THE HOLY NAME OF GOD  !!   :iagree:

  :HeartThrob:  Where is the LOVE in that ?

Quote from: rosered on August 10, 2016, 02:52:44 PM
     Welcome MinakoChan  !!

  Until we   can hear  Jesus Voice  ...     THE WATERS FROM ABOVE  the earth and not below  , the earthly sensual and devilish  voices of   the dragons flood of lies speaking against Gods   HOLY  SPIRIT OF LIFE  , we have not even begun to live the Life in Christ a new      :dsunny:

The earth,  flesh and blood bodies ,  our own mortality  "helped the woman / True  Church"   BODY OF CHRIST /   truth and Life      and swallowed up this dragons flood  of filth and lies against God , It is His own fire and light  of jealousy and Love   that will dry up    the earth  and all the watery graves  mankind has been drowning in for centuries     :dsunny:

Voice of many waters come and drink of the waters of Life freely , out of the belly will flow the living waters 


  1Then I looked and saw the Lamb standing on Mount Zion, and with Him one hundred forty-four thousand who had His name and His Father's name written on their foreheads.

2And I heard a sound from heaven like the roar of rushing waters and the loud rumbling of thunder. And the sound I heard was like harpists strumming their harps. 3And they sang a new song before the throne and before the four living creatures and the elders. And no one could learn the song except the one hundred forty-four thousand who had been redeemed from the earth....


Ezekiel 43:2
and behold, the glory of the God of Israel was coming from the way of the east. And His voice was like the sound of many waters; and the earth shone with His glory.

1 Corinthians 13:1
If I speak in the tongues of men and of angels, but have not love, I am only a ringing gong or a clanging cymbal.

Revelation 1:15
His feet were like polished bronze refined in a furnace, and His voice was like the roar of many waters.


waters of Life  freely  New Heaven and a New Earth
...5And the One seated on the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Then He said, "Write this down, for these words are faithful and true." 6And He told me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To the thirsty I will give freely from the spring of the water of life. 7The one who is victorious will inherit all things, and I will be his God, and he will be My son....


Isaiah 55:1
"Ho! Every one who thirsts, come to the waters; And you who have no money come, buy and eat. Come, buy wine and milk Without money and without cost.

John 4:10
Jesus answered, "If you knew the gift of God and who is asking you for a drink, you would have asked Him, and He would have given you living water."



Revelation 1:8
"I am the Alpha and the Omega," says the Lord God, who is and was and is to come--the Almighty.

Revelation 3:14
To the angel of the church in Laodicea write: These are the words of the Amen, the faithful and true Witness, the Originator of God's creation.

Revelation 7:17
For the Lamb in the center of the throne will be their shepherd. He will lead them to fountains of living water, and God will wipe away every tear from their eyes.'"

Revelation 10:6
And he swore by Him who lives forever and ever, who created heaven and everything in it, the earth and everything in it, and the sea and everything in it: "There will be no more delay!

Revelation 16:17
Then the seventh angel poured out his bowl into the air, and a loud voice came from the throne in the temple, saying, "It is done!"

Revelation 22:13
I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End."

Revelation 22:17
The Spirit and the bride say, "Come!" Let the one who hears say, "Come!" And let the one who is thirsty come, and the one who desires the water of life drink freely.

the LIVING WORD IS LIVING WATERS /VOICE  whom is calling us   to be filled with Life after all the devils  lies have been burned out of us  by the fire of His loving Jealousy    , God is a consuming fire   and now be filled with  the truth and waters of Life  in    this new heaven and the new earth  made by His love and desire for all mankind to a part of   , now is the time  , our salvation is nearer than when we first believed in JESUS CHRIST  THE SAVIOR  OF ALL mankind especially those whom believe    right now!  ....
John 11
I am the resurrection and the Life  He who believes in Me will live, even though he dies.


26And everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"...

Yes! I absolutely believe that, it's such a beautiful message. It's a shame that a lot of people can't see the beauty in the Bible and instead get stuck behind a scary message without much hope.

Behold what kind of love the Father has given to us;  that we may be called the sons of God.

Irreversible; irrevocable; will not return to God void.

What an incredible position; thanks to Christ Who has brought this to reality.

Just as we are born at different times to our siblings in the flesh, we seem to be born at different times in the spirit because we are individual children of God- All part of one body with Christ as the head.
WOW!!
Jesus came to give us life- He was 100% successful.

Quote from: MinakoChan on August 12, 2016, 05:53:22 AM


Yes! I absolutely believe that, it's such a beautiful message. It's a shame that a lot of people can't see the beauty in the Bible and instead get stuck behind a scary message without much hope.

Amen ,   Minako  :HeartThrob:

I recall   an old friend/Loxoco  years ago  , sharing something with me   that stuck with me  and your post just reminded me of what he  said ,,,


Realizing  with more  clarity  than  all those years ago ,
He said ,  by nature    a beast will not go near a      fire , this is how some    ranchers keep  coyotes /wolves  away   from the cattle/sheep   ,Because  coyotes like to rob and kill at night they  fear the  Fire  and flames  and they run from the fire  back into the darkness  to hide .


Considering our carnal nature is   beastly  and animal like  , we fear the fire  instinctively ..

It is in our first nature   being earthly , and sensual and devilish   to live by this   type  of wisdom , as the whole world sits in darkness / ignorance to the ways of God
  But the true and divine nature   of being  born again  JESUS CHRIST IS THE LIGHT OF THE WORLD and true knowledge of God ,  intensively is drawn to the    to the fire and Light / flames of Gods LOVE , there is no harm in this  nature that comes  to those     whom are made  new creatures in Christ   ,   even the  name Christ means   to anoint   , to smear with Holy Oil  and keep the lamps burning brightly ...  "Christ" comes from the Greek word Christos, meaning "anointed one" or "chosen one."   We are gathered in to Christ Body  and protected by Him .. and is descriptive  of   fire & light   glowing  in the purest form  in  Revelations  and Daniel and the gospels

Our Father is seeking the  true worshippers now  , that will   be anointed with HOLY SPIRIT  AND FIRE   as He no longer gave salvation to the Jews only ,

but opened   up   heaven for all to enter though His one of a kind SON ,  the First of  many  to come  , they shall rise up out of their   graves ,  figuratively speaking ,being dead in sin and trespass   and given the faith to believe in the Son of God , just as Peter was given , flesh and blood did not reveal this but the FATHER  had  and consider their own bodies as good as dead already in the same steps as Abraham long ago  and promise of the seed   in newness of Life   gathered as One in JESUS Christ.. the savior of the world ..



  Jesus and the Samaritan Woman  telling her she was in ignorance of the   true and Living God  and worshipped  without understanding  , but Jesus was giving her  truth and understanding  in that moment  to believe in Him .

...22You worship what you do not know;

we worship what we do know,

for salvation is from the Jews.

23But a time is coming and has now come when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and in truth,


for the Father is seeking such as these to worship Him.


24God is Spirit, and His worshipers must worship Him in spirit and in truth."...

:dsunny:  God bless your journey MinakoChan  !!    He is always faithful as promised...  now we believe by faith , but soon we will know '' all things '' :HeartThrob:   

That's true but it's also true that the end of Revelation does paint God and Heaven as being in one direction and the Lake of Fire being outside of it in the other.

What verse establishes that the lake of fire is somewhere outside of heaven? I personally think it is surrounded by heaven.

And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Rev 14:10

Quote from: eaglesway on August 13, 2016, 08:51:54 PM
What verse establishes that the lake of fire is somewhere outside of heaven? I personally think it is surrounded by heaven.

And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Rev 14:10

AMEN!!!   :HeartThrob: 

I can't properly convey how much I love and am thankful for the Lord! Ever since I was little, around 5-6 years old: I believed there was more to this life, beyond what we see physically.

Even though my family never went to church or talked about religion much, there were still believers in my immediate family. My mother, who is no longer with me had an extremely strong belief in God, Jesus, and the Bible. She and her brother were born and baptized in a Catholic Church, even though they didn't stick with Catholic doctrine. My father also has belief in God and the Bible, however he's lazy with reading.  :laugh:

In the past two weeks, my sister and I have been heavily into discussing God, and we can't make any sense of Atheism/naturalism/evolutionists. She said that she always had a belief in a personal God, and now she definitely does believe in the Bible.

My brother on the other hand, is a tough nut to crack. He is an hardcore Atheist/evolutionist. Even though he's had supernatural encounters before, and he realized that my mother had a gift for telling very specific things before it happened, like a revelation from God. He absolutely loved his/our mother, but he claims to not believe in God or the supernatural. It's sad to see him in that state. He's been trying  to shake faith in God and Christianity by saying, "No one would know of God, if it wasn't for people making the whole story up" or things like "there's no evidence for Exodus or Moses".

I don't believe in anything he says, since I did my research and have a natural belief in a higher power that can intervene with creation. Even though I have a feeling, somewhere deep down he does believe in God. When our mother passed away last year, he was very upset and briefly mentioned how he didn't want her body to be cremated, because he "partially looked at the situation, of her soul still being with the body". Even though I think that part is unbiblical...strangely enough when I ask him about that statement, he claims to have no memory of it. ;~;

Edit: meant to say higher power.

Quote from: MinakoChan on August 14, 2016, 05:05:10 AM

I can't properly convey how much I love and am thankful for the Lord!

My brother on the other hand, is a tough nut to crack.

Nothing can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus. [ Romans 8;38,39]

A brother scenario was shown when Joseph was sent ahead of his brothers into Egypt.
He was cast down a well by them. Rescued by outsiders. Made a slave. Thrown into jail because of an unhappy woman being denied his affections. Translated dreams of fellow slaves. Brought before the Pharaoh and raised to be 2nd in command.
His brothers came to him out of desperation for food. He did not initially show them who he was until the whole family was there.
Then there was much weeping before becoming much joy.
This seems to display that the whole correction process takes time, but is all worked out for good at the appropriate time for us as individuals.
Paul talks about this in Romans 8;28
Also 1 Cor 15;22,23  Each in his own appointed time.

My brothers differ from me; they both have their interpretation of the scriptures. One a doctorate of religion. The other a spiritual evangelist. Both still live in fear of hell.
I only have the peace of God, which passes all understanding, because of His mercy which has set me free from the law, of sin, and death. I also have the confidence that they will be corrected at their own appointed time by a loving Father Who works out everything according to His plan. Any plan works in stages. Those who are needed for the next stage are shown before those who are used later in the program. But each one of us is of the same value as children of God, just learn at our own time.

Please consider you are blessed to be aware of this concept before your brother. He will be converted in his time. You are a living example which will be making him ask questions; just he will not ask them until his life experiences requires changes to be made.
So press on knowing he too is in God's hand; just he doesn't know that yet.

Nice post Ross.

Quote from: eaglesway on August 13, 2016, 08:51:54 PM
What verse establishes that the lake of fire is somewhere outside of heaven? I personally think it is surrounded by heaven.

And he will be tormented in fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and of the Lamb.

Rev 14:10

'And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.' (Rev. 19:20)

...

'and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev. 20:15)

'Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."' (Rev. 21:1-4)

Since the Lake of Fire is seen before the New Jerusalem even appears it is difficult to envisage it being inside said city.

'And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.' (Rev 21-5-7)

Here the book describes the fate of the righteous who get into 'Heaven', it than describes the fate of the unrighteous:

'But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."' (Rev 21:8)

But the kicker is towards the end of the chapter, John sees the New Jerusalem and describes it, he does this for several passages up to:

'By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, and its gates shall never be shut by day--and there shall be no night there; they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.' (Rev. 21-24-26)

And then here's that kicker:

'But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.'

So there it is, those written in the Book of Life go into the city, the New Jerusalem, those who are not go into the Lake of Fire (we read earlier) which is therefore a different direction. And also:

'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.' (Rev. 22:14-15)

The Lake of Fire is not inside the city is is outside, you may need to reinterpret your understanding of Rev. 14. I did although I don't think that this is the place to discuss it.

 all the answers are in Revelation  CST  LOOK     , IT IS BOTH    Part of the Holy city and yet    the outer court  surrounding , in the presence of the Lord and His Holy Angels

1Then I was given a measuring rod like a staff and was told, "Go and measure the temple of God and the altar, and count the number of worshipers there.

2But exclude the courtyard outside the temple. Do not measure it, because it has been given over to the nations, and they will trample the holy city for forty-two months. 3 And I will empower my two witnesses, and they will prophesy for a thousand two hundred sixty days, clothed in sackcloth."...

Quote'But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.'

  from now on call no man uncommon or unclean   Acts 10 ...27As Peter talked with him, he went inside and found many people gathered together.

28He said to them, "You know how unlawful it is for a Jew to associate with a foreigner or visit him. But God has shown me that I should not call any man impure or unclean.

I don't think many believe  this , but it is the unclean spirits in a man that are   dwelling in his flesh[outer court]  that are to be destroyed in the presence of the Lamb and His holy angels     , the inner court , is the inner man born from above /  Christ ruling his heart/mind   and this   is  to enter into the holy of holies  heaven its self , you are the temple of the Living God and His spirit dwells in you .... 

The man of sin has already been dethroned    and cast down into our  flesh/earthly bodies  ,but  now having the mind of Christ   ,   we pray for Gods will to be done on earth /our mortal bodies as it is in heaven  , before the coming of   our new  heaven and earth  /complete    2 Thess 2 come breath slaying the wicked  and brightness of His coming ..The Man of Lawlessness
...7For the mystery of lawlessness is already at work, but the one who now restrains it will continue until he is taken out of the way. 8And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord Jesus will slay with the breath of His mouth and abolish by the majesty of His arrival. 9The coming of the lawless one will be accompanied by the working of Satan, with every kind of power, sign, and false wonder,...

It is a process  and Only the Holy SPIRIT  and Word working in does these things at the appointed time ..  According to Gods will  ,praying    His will be done on earth as it is in heaven    ,  healing us and making us   whole complete     , I do believe it is so much more personal      than  ever before  , we cannot even begin to help anyone  before we are   healed  by the Lord and made complete
   Just as the stages of Spiritual growth seen in the book of John    the babes  that are forgiven from His names sake and still the evil one is present   and young men  are  strong because the WORD OF GOD dwells with you  and have ,victory in Christ  to overcome the evil one  and fathers [ whom the seed of promise  come forth as sowers  chosen from the beginning  ]

1 John 2:12-28

12 I write to you, little children,
    Because your sins are forgiven you for His name's sake.
13 I write to you, fathers,
    Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I write to you, young men,
    Because you have overcome the wicked one.
I write to you, little children,
    Because you have known the Father.
14 I have written to you, fathers,
    Because you have known Him who is from the beginning.
I have written to you, young men,
    Because you are strong, and the word of God abides in you,
    And you have overcome the wicked one.
15 Do not love the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him. 16 For all that is in the world—the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life—is not of the Father but is of the world. 17 And the world is passing away, and the lust of it; but he who does the will of God abides forever.

18 Little children, it is the last hour; and as you have heard that the Antichrist is coming, even now many antichrists have come, by which we know that it is the last hour. 19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would have continued with us; but they went out that they might be made manifest, that none of them were of us.

20 But you have an anointing from the Holy One, and you know all things. 21 I have not written to you because you do not know the truth, but because you know it, and that no lie is of the truth.

22 Who is a liar but he who denies that Jesus is the Christ? He is antichrist who denies the Father and the Son. 23 Whoever denies the Son does not have the Father either; he who acknowledges the Son has the Father also.

Jesus went to the cross to destroy the works of  satan  namely  holding  us all  in death ,     the Spirit of the Father is to destroy Babylon   ridding   all idolatry   

These  firstfruits was always to  be  loyal and faithful    and abide in truth from the beginning  and keeping the Holy seed  / WORD pure  and incorruptible  , the FATHER HAS ALWAYS KEPT HIS PLAN   from the beginning  all the way to the end ..


  Romans 11 The Remnant of Israel
...3"Lord, they have killed Your prophets and torn down Your altars. I am the only one left, and they are seeking my life as well"?

4And what was the divine reply to him? "I have reserved for Myself seven thousand men who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5In the same way, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace.... :HeartThrob:

This may not make a bit of sense to you  CST ,  my hope is that it does  , that the Holy Spirit  will  teach us all  what is pleasing to our  Heavenly Father in the Living Son ..

  And most certainly will let John , explain   to the best of his ability ,   as I have also tried   to help   to the best of my ability  , what I do believe the Holy Spirit is showing us  in His  living Word .  God bless  :HeartThrob:

No not a bit of sense except the bit where you misapply Revelations, oh and the bit about calling no man unclean which I suspect you're also misapplying. But at least I can reply now unlike the past days.

When God instructs John to measure the temple of God it refers to the current temple in the actual world, as least symbolically. It cannot refer to the New Temple in the New Jerusalem because a. it hasn't been revealed yet and b. there is no Temple like that in the New Jerusalem for it is revealed that:

'And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.' (Rev. 21:22)

So no temple, no that could be referred to in a way that would involve God instructing John to measure in for God cannot be measured.

What I said appears to stand and the reference you cite refers to the the temple inside the Earthly Jerusalem while the reference I cite refers to the Heavenly Jerusalem which has God as it's temple, which has gates at its perimeter and outside those gates, and therefore outside the city, is the Lake of Fire. It is possible, I believe for it to theoretically be both but because 'with God all things are possible' not because you're making a correct citation of Revelation.

And while the statement to call no man unclean could be taken as being very handy for us as it might suggest that come the time no unclean things will be found to exclude from the city it says no such thing. It's simply an instruction on how we should treat each other being likely to be at least as bad as the next man. It does not mean that there are no unclean people just because we are told we haven't the right to call another such.

Beyond that I have no idea what you are saying.

Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 02:03:56 PM
No not a bit of sense except the bit where you misapply Revelations, oh and the bit about calling no man unclean which I suspect you're also misapplying. But at least I can reply now unlike the past days.

When God instructs John to measure the temple of God it refers to the current temple in the actual world, as least symbolically. It cannot refer to the New Temple in the New Jerusalem because a. it hasn't been revealed yet and b. there is no Temple like that in the New Jerusalem for it is revealed that:

'And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.' (Rev. 21:22)

So no temple, no that could be referred to in a way that would involve God instructing John to measure in for God cannot be measured.

What I said appears to stand and the reference you cite refers to the the temple inside the Earthly Jerusalem while the reference I cite refers to the Heavenly Jerusalem which has God as it's temple, which has gates at its perimeter and outside those gates, and therefore outside the city, is the Lake of Fire. It is possible, I believe for it to theoretically be both but because 'with God all things are possible' not because you're making a correct citation of Revelation.

And while the statement to call no man unclean could be taken as being very handy for us as it might suggest that come the time no unclean things will be found to exclude from the city it says no such thing. It's simply an instruction on how we should treat each other being likely to be at least as bad as the next man. It does not mean that there are no unclean people just because we are told we haven't the right to call another such.

Beyond that I have no idea what you are saying.

GOD BLESS YOU    , just the same where you are at  CST

God will show you   HIS TRUTH  by His  Holy  Spirit  & fire    :HeartThrob:

Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:59:56 PM
'And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.' (Rev. 19:20)

...

'and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev. 20:15)

'Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."' (Rev. 21:1-4)

Since the Lake of Fire is seen before the New Jerusalem even appears it is difficult to envisage it being inside said city.

'And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.' (Rev 21-5-7)

Here the book describes the fate of the righteous who get into 'Heaven', it than describes the fate of the unrighteous:

'But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."' (Rev 21:8)

But the kicker is towards the end of the chapter, John sees the New Jerusalem and describes it, he does this for several passages up to:

'By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, and its gates shall never be shut by day--and there shall be no night there; they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.' (Rev. 21-24-26)

And then here's that kicker:

'But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.'

So there it is, those written in the Book of Life go into the city, the New Jerusalem, those who are not go into the Lake of Fire (we read earlier) which is therefore a different direction. And also:

'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.' (Rev. 22:14-15)

The Lake of Fire is not inside the city is is outside, you may need to reinterpret your understanding of Rev. 14. I did although I don't think that this is the place to discuss it.

I may be deceiving myself, but when I read the verses in Rev 22.. about how nothing unclean will enter the city I don't think it means in the age when God our Father is all in all, that there will be fornicators and murderers outside the city.. I think it simply is saying, such could and can never enter the city.. the kingdom of God.. God's Presence..

Since I figure no evil or evildoing can exist when He is all in all, then that leaves the idea of the statement being outside of 'time' and ages..

There's the scene playing out.. the holy city coming down.. radiant.. (God has made all things new) And then there's the narrative(?) "nothing unclean can ever enter the city.. outside the city is.." I'm usually rather suspicious of mental acrobatics.. but the book of revelation seems to me to be in some regards, a kaleidoscope..

 
  I dont think CST ''gets it'' that the FIRE IS GODS PRESENCE  ,  Marie . :laugh:

  For our  God is a consuming fire !!

  Hebrews 12 Contrast of Sinai and Zion

18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,

19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.


20 For they could not bear the command, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned." 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I am full of fear and trembling."


22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Unshaken Kingdom
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.


26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."


27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

Quote from: rosered on August 17, 2016, 09:11:49 PM

Quote from: CST on August 17, 2016, 02:03:56 PM
No not a bit of sense except the bit where you misapply Revelations, oh and the bit about calling no man unclean which I suspect you're also misapplying. But at least I can reply now unlike the past days.

When God instructs John to measure the temple of God it refers to the current temple in the actual world, as least symbolically. It cannot refer to the New Temple in the New Jerusalem because a. it hasn't been revealed yet and b. there is no Temple like that in the New Jerusalem for it is revealed that:

'And I saw no temple in the city, for its temple is the Lord God the Almighty and the Lamb.' (Rev. 21:22)

So no temple, no that could be referred to in a way that would involve God instructing John to measure in for God cannot be measured.

What I said appears to stand and the reference you cite refers to the the temple inside the Earthly Jerusalem while the reference I cite refers to the Heavenly Jerusalem which has God as it's temple, which has gates at its perimeter and outside those gates, and therefore outside the city, is the Lake of Fire. It is possible, I believe for it to theoretically be both but because 'with God all things are possible' not because you're making a correct citation of Revelation.

And while the statement to call no man unclean could be taken as being very handy for us as it might suggest that come the time no unclean things will be found to exclude from the city it says no such thing. It's simply an instruction on how we should treat each other being likely to be at least as bad as the next man. It does not mean that there are no unclean people just because we are told we haven't the right to call another such.

Beyond that I have no idea what you are saying.

GOD BLESS YOU    , just the same where you are at  CST

God will show you   HIS TRUTH  by His  Holy  Spirit  & fire    :HeartThrob:

Are you saying you have a much idea what I'm saying as I do what you are? Then what's the point? God clearly hasn't blessed me the basic communication and interpretation skills. Just one of a myriad of other things God appears not to have gifted me with that a basic requirements for getting on in this sorry  planet He made. Guess He doesn't want me to get on. You know what the thing that makes me most doubtful of the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is: Me.

Quote from: marie glen on August 17, 2016, 10:31:52 PM

Quote from: CST on August 15, 2016, 05:59:56 PM
'And the beast was captured, and with it the false prophet who in its presence had worked the signs by which he deceived those who had received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped its image. These two were thrown alive into the lake of fire that burns with sulphur.' (Rev. 19:20)

...

'and if any one's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.' (Rev. 20:15)

'Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth; for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and the sea was no more. and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; he will wipe away every tear from their eyes, and death shall be no more, neither shall there be mourning nor crying nor pain any more, for the former things have passed away."' (Rev. 21:1-4)

Since the Lake of Fire is seen before the New Jerusalem even appears it is difficult to envisage it being inside said city.

'And he who sat upon the throne said, "Behold, I make all things new." Also he said, "Write this, for these words are trustworthy and true." And he said to me, "It is done! I am the Alpha and the Omega, the beginning and the end. To the thirsty I will give from the fountain of the water of life without payment. He who conquers shall have this heritage, and I will be his God and he shall be my son.' (Rev 21-5-7)

Here the book describes the fate of the righteous who get into 'Heaven', it than describes the fate of the unrighteous:

'But as for the cowardly, the faithless, the polluted, as for murderers, fornicators, sorcerers, idolaters, and all liars, their lot shall be in the lake that burns with fire and sulphur, which is the second death."' (Rev 21:8)

But the kicker is towards the end of the chapter, John sees the New Jerusalem and describes it, he does this for several passages up to:

'By its light shall the nations walk; and the kings of the earth shall bring their glory into it, and its gates shall never be shut by day--and there shall be no night there; they shall bring into it the glory and the honor of the nations.' (Rev. 21-24-26)

And then here's that kicker:

'But nothing unclean shall enter it, nor any one who practices abomination or falsehood, but only those who are written in the Lamb's book of life.'

So there it is, those written in the Book of Life go into the city, the New Jerusalem, those who are not go into the Lake of Fire (we read earlier) which is therefore a different direction. And also:

'Blessed are those who wash their robes, that they may have the right to the tree of life and that they may enter the city by the gates. Outside are the dogs and sorcerers and fornicators and murderers and idolaters, and every one who loves and practices falsehood.' (Rev. 22:14-15)

The Lake of Fire is not inside the city is is outside, you may need to reinterpret your understanding of Rev. 14. I did although I don't think that this is the place to discuss it.

I may be deceiving myself, but when I read the verses in Rev 22.. about how nothing unclean will enter the city I don't think it means in the age when God our Father is all in all, that there will be fornicators and murderers outside the city.. I think it simply is saying, such could and can never enter the city.. the kingdom of God.. God's Presence..

Since I figure no evil or evildoing can exist when He is all in all, then that leaves the idea of the statement being outside of 'time' and ages..

There's the scene playing out.. the holy city coming down.. radiant.. (God has made all things new) And then there's the narrative(?) "nothing unclean can ever enter the city.. outside the city is.." I'm usually rather suspicious of mental acrobatics.. but the book of revelation seems to me to be in some regards, a kaleidoscope..

Oh, I have no problem with that thinking. What is under discussion is that at Rev. 14 it indicates punishment of the wicked in the presence of the lamb and His angels, which at the end of the book it perpetually presents the Lake of Fire, which is supposedly the state of the impenitent to bring them to penitence so God can be all in all, as being outside the gates of the city. Rose is trying to argue that both are true even though this defies human logic (though perhaps not God's capabilities).

But I agree that the book is very baffling. Kaleidoscope that you use sounds a good word I often wonder how literal to take even claims that there's no sun, moon, water or, yes, temple. John says He doesn't see these things because God represents all light and center of worship (water means chaos to Hebrews). I can see the truth of John's statement without their literally being none of the above in the Kingdom. God says I make all things new but surely, all the above, would count as things. If they weren't there in any form it would be hard to say the had been 'made new'. So the Revelation is a strange book and that is a particularly strange line. How does God make everything  'New' when we were 'new' we we unconscious fetuses, that would be a bit unhelpful for us.

Quote from: rosered on August 18, 2016, 12:58:52 PM

  I dont think CST "gets it" that the FIRE IS GODS PRESENCE  ,  Marie . :laugh:

  For our  God is a consuming fire !!

  Hebrews 12 Contrast of Sinai and Zion

18 For you have not come to a mountain that can be touched and to a blazing fire, and to darkness and gloom and whirlwind,

19 and to the blast of a trumpet and the sound of words which sound was such that those who heard begged that no further word be spoken to them.


20 For they could not bear the command, "If even a beast touches the mountain, it will be stoned." 21 And so terrible was the sight, that Moses said, "I am full of fear and trembling."


22 But you have come to Mount Zion and to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to myriads of angels, 23 to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God, the Judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect, 24 and to Jesus, the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood, which speaks better than the blood of Abel.

The Unshaken Kingdom
25 See to it that you do not refuse Him who is speaking. For if those did not escape when they refused him who warned them on earth, much less will we escape who turn away from Him who warns from heaven.


26 And His voice shook the earth then, but now He has promised, saying, "Yet once more I will shake not only the earth, but also the heaven."


27 This expression, "Yet once more," denotes the removing of those things which can be shaken, as of created things, so that those things which cannot be shaken may remain.


28 Therefore, since we receive a kingdom which cannot be shaken, let us show gratitude, by which we may offer to God an acceptable service with reverence and awe; 29 for our God is a consuming fire.

I think I 'get' that the Bible says: 'They shall suffer the punishment of eternal destruction and exclusion from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of his might,' (2 Thes. 1:9) Now while we don't believe that any of this is literally eternal (except maybe the destruction of the 'evil' parts although again the 'all things new' clause creates problems) or correctly translated it says they will be separated from the presence of God for a time. Since the Revelation does suggest the Holy city as being the presence of God, -  'Then I saw a great white throne and him who sat upon it; from his presence earth and sky fled away, and no place was found for them. (Rev 20:11), 'And I saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband; and I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Behold, the dwelling of God is with men. He will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself will be with them; (Rev 21:2-3) - it rather seems that the LoF is the fulfillment of Paul's statement and thus a separation, for a time, from God.

QuoteAre you saying you have a much idea what I'm saying as I do what you are? Then what's the point? God clearly hasn't blessed me the basic communication and interpretation skills. Just one of a myriad of other things God appears not to have gifted me with that a basic requirements for getting on in this sorry  planet He made. Guess He doesn't want me to get on. You know what the thing that makes me most doubtful of the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is: Me.

  I am so sorry CST , Chris 

You are doing just fine ...    Please just hang there ,,
  I too struggled  with  God saving all    at first   , but the  perspective   changed when I finally realized    it is not up to  us to save ourselves ,  It is God  Himself that does the saving  of each and everyone  by   truth and grace and Have just have to   wait   on  the Lord to show us  , and  I had to quit  fighting against    Him

  It  really is taking every thought captive in Christ 2 COR 5   it  helped a lot .


  Here is  valid point     I agree wholeheartedly with....


  3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,

4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.


5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

7 You are looking at things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we.

8 For even if I boast somewhat further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you,

I will not be put to shame,

9 for I do not wish to seem as if I would terrify you by my letters.

10 For they say, "His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible."

11 Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present.

   My faith believes that Paul and all  these  written in the Lambs  book of LIFE    are present with Christ when  speaking to us to this very day    ,  and Is increasing in power  Spiritually speaking  of course     on a continual      basis    ...
CST writes ;

QuoteOh, I have no problem with that thinking. What is under discussion is that at Rev. 14 it indicates punishment of the wicked in the presence of the lamb and His angels, which at the end of the book it perpetually presents the Lake of Fire, which is supposedly the state of the impenitent to bring them to penitence so God can be all in all, as being outside the gates of the city. Rose is trying to argue that both are true even though this defies human logic (though perhaps not God's capabilities).

But I agree that the book is very baffling. Kaleidoscope that you use sounds a good word I often wonder how literal to take even claims that there's no sun, moon, water or, yes, temple. John says He doesn't see these things because God represents all light and center of worship (water means chaos to Hebrews). I can see the truth of John's statement without their literally being none of the above in the Kingdom. God says I make all things new but surely, all the above, would count as things. If they weren't there in any form it would be hard to say the had been 'made new'. So the Revelation is a strange book and that is a particularly strange line. How does God make everything  'New' when we were 'new' we we unconscious fetuses, that would be a bit unhelpful for us.

   Your human logic is  your stumbling  block over the Word of God   Chris  ,    the carnal  , earthly mind cannot  understand the things of God  , we have to ''put on Christ ''      that mind comes when    Christ takes   your  thoughts  captive      swallowing up death , to be carnally mined is death ...,,,

    Meaning   is     focusing  on    and producing   thoughts   on  earthly   things  and  human logic ..

  He  explained this to Nicodemus   in John  3      because  Nicodemus was still in the dark about the things of God   [night ]    has meaning   , just as much as the DAY      and so on    the symbolism     of being born again is when the Spirit blows and  you hear His Voice   , faith comes by hearing what the Spirit   is saying , none can hear  unless God gives us  the new  ears to hear and new  eyes to see and a new heart to understand  Him   ,   This is the   deadly wound being healed     , God kills and make alive ..    It is most  certainly a TWO - EDGED  SWORD   and  comes the new  creature in Christ .    full of praise for GOD IS HOLY  and the LIVING GOD  and the Holy   , Living   do praise God  continually  for what he has done John 3-4 (NASB)

The New Birth
3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony


. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe,

how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;


15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world,

and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


The change  is in the works  of God   from the   works of doing  evil ,  Jesus Come  to destroy the works of the devil / satan  , it is a bad spirit  working in a man and it made this man a prisoner to sin   , Jesus Christ is His name and He sets  us free  from   evil ,   being compared to trees of Knowledge of good and evil ,  and many other things   , you have to want to be saved   and you have to call on His name  , that is  a  simple  truth  in  all this  posting .

  But Jesus claims in scripture ,That there are those , who say it right ,and even claiming to have faith  , but deny  Him in their works .  making faith without works dead   ,  so has God  really  given them the new birth  so His works can been made known  , or are they those whom deceive  themselves ?

  Are their hearts still hardened ?   Are they still trapped in Babylon and all these things will come upon them in the Day of the Lord   that Revelations describes  as  Coming out of the great tribulation .

Strong's H7451 - ra`
רַע
Transliteration
ra`
Pronunciation
rah (Key)

Parts of Speech
adjective, feminine noun, masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From רָעַע (H7489)
TWOT Reference
2191a,2191c
Outline of Biblical Usage
adj
bad, evil

bad, disagreeable, malignant

bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

evil, displeasing

bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

bad (of value)

worse than, worst (comparison)

sad, unhappy

evil (hurtful)

bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

in general, of persons, of thoughts

deeds, actions

n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

evil, distress, adversity

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

n f
evil, misery, distress, injury

evil, misery, distress

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

Quote from: rosered on August 18, 2016, 07:57:45 PM

QuoteAre you saying you have a much idea what I'm saying as I do what you are? Then what's the point? God clearly hasn't blessed me the basic communication and interpretation skills. Just one of a myriad of other things God appears not to have gifted me with that a basic requirements for getting on in this sorry  planet He made. Guess He doesn't want me to get on. You know what the thing that makes me most doubtful of the doctrine of Universal Reconciliation is: Me.

  I am so sorry CST , Chris 

You are doing just fine ...    Please just hang there ,,
  I too struggled  with  God saving all    at first   , but the  perspective   changed when I finally realized    it is not up to  us to save ourselves ,  It is God  Himself that does the saving  of each and everyone  by   truth and grace and Have just have to   wait   on  the Lord to show us  , and  I had to quit  fighting against    Him

  It  really is taking every thought captive in Christ 2 COR 5   it  helped a lot .


  Here is  valid point     I agree wholeheartedly with....


  3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh,

4 for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but divinely powerful for the destruction of fortresses.


5 We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, 6 and we are ready to punish all disobedience, whenever your obedience is complete.

7 You are looking at things as they are outwardly. If anyone is confident in himself that he is Christ's, let him consider this again within himself, that just as he is Christ's, so also are we.

8 For even if I boast somewhat further about our authority, which the Lord gave for building you up and not for destroying you,

I will not be put to shame,

9 for I do not wish to seem as if I would terrify you by my letters.

10 For they say, "His letters are weighty and strong, but his personal presence is unimpressive and his speech contemptible."

11 Let such a person consider this, that what we are in word by letters when absent, such persons we are also in deed when present.

   My faith believes that Paul and all  these  written in the Lambs  book of LIFE    are present with Christ when  speaking to us to this very day    ,  and Is increasing in power  Spiritually speaking  of course     on a continual      basis    ...
CST writes ;

QuoteOh, I have no problem with that thinking. What is under discussion is that at Rev. 14 it indicates punishment of the wicked in the presence of the lamb and His angels, which at the end of the book it perpetually presents the Lake of Fire, which is supposedly the state of the impenitent to bring them to penitence so God can be all in all, as being outside the gates of the city. Rose is trying to argue that both are true even though this defies human logic (though perhaps not God's capabilities).

But I agree that the book is very baffling. Kaleidoscope that you use sounds a good word I often wonder how literal to take even claims that there's no sun, moon, water or, yes, temple. John says He doesn't see these things because God represents all light and center of worship (water means chaos to Hebrews). I can see the truth of John's statement without their literally being none of the above in the Kingdom. God says I make all things new but surely, all the above, would count as things. If they weren't there in any form it would be hard to say the had been 'made new'. So the Revelation is a strange book and that is a particularly strange line. How does God make everything  'New' when we were 'new' we we unconscious fetuses, that would be a bit unhelpful for us.

   Your human logic is  your stumbling  block over the Word of God   Chris  ,    the carnal  , earthly mind cannot  understand the things of God  , we have to "put on Christ "      that mind comes when    Christ takes   your  thoughts  captive      swallowing up death , to be carnally mined is death ...,,,

    Meaning   is     focusing  on    and producing   thoughts   on  earthly   things  and  human logic ..

  He  explained this to Nicodemus   in John  3      because  Nicodemus was still in the dark about the things of God   [night ]    has meaning   , just as much as the DAY      and so on    the symbolism     of being born again is when the Spirit blows and  you hear His Voice   , faith comes by hearing what the Spirit   is saying , none can hear  unless God gives us  the new  ears to hear and new  eyes to see and a new heart to understand  Him   ,   This is the   deadly wound being healed     , God kills and make alive ..    It is most  certainly a TWO - EDGED  SWORD   and  comes the new  creature in Christ .    full of praise for GOD IS HOLY  and the LIVING GOD  and the Holy   , Living   do praise God  continually  for what he has done John 3-4 (NASB)

The New Birth
3 Now there was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews; 2 this man came to Jesus by night and said to Him, "Rabbi, we know that You have come from God as a teacher; for no one can do these signs that You do unless God is with him." 3 Jesus answered and said to him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."

4 Nicodemus *said to Him, "How can a man be born when he is old? He cannot enter a second time into his mother's womb and be born, can he?" 5 Jesus answered, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born of water and the Spirit he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Do not be amazed that I said to you, 'You must be born again.' 8 The wind blows where it wishes and you hear the sound of it, but do not know where it comes from and where it is going; so is everyone who is born of the Spirit."

9 Nicodemus said to Him, "How can these things be?" 10 Jesus answered and said to him, "Are you the teacher of Israel and do not understand these things?

11 Truly, truly, I say to you, we speak of what we know and testify of what we have seen, and you do not accept our testimony


. 12 If I told you earthly things and you do not believe,

how will you believe if I tell you heavenly things?


13 No one has ascended into heaven, but He who descended from heaven: the Son of Man.

14 As Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of Man be lifted up;


15 so that whoever believes will in Him have eternal life.

16 "For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life.

17 For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him.


18 He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world,

and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil.

20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.

21 But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."


The change  is in the works  of God   from the   works of doing  evil ,  Jesus Come  to destroy the works of the devil / satan  , it is a bad spirit  working in a man and it made this man a prisoner to sin   , Jesus Christ is His name and He sets  us free  from   evil ,   being compared to trees of Knowledge of good and evil ,  and many other things   , you have to want to be saved   and you have to call on His name  , that is  a  simple  truth  in  all this  posting .

  But Jesus claims in scripture ,That there are those , who say it right ,and even claiming to have faith  , but deny  Him in their works .  making faith without works dead   ,  so has God  really  given them the new birth  so His works can been made known  , or are they those whom deceive  themselves ?

  Are their hearts still hardened ?   Are they still trapped in Babylon and all these things will come upon them in the Day of the Lord   that Revelations describes  as  Coming out of the great tribulation .

Strong's H7451 - ra`
רַע
Transliteration
ra`
Pronunciation
rah (Key)

Parts of Speech
adjective, feminine noun, masculine noun
Root Word (Etymology)
From רָעַע (H7489)
TWOT Reference
2191a,2191c
Outline of Biblical Usage
adj
bad, evil

bad, disagreeable, malignant

bad, unpleasant, evil (giving pain, unhappiness, misery)

evil, displeasing

bad (of its kind - land, water, etc)

bad (of value)

worse than, worst (comparison)

sad, unhappy

evil (hurtful)

bad, unkind (vicious in disposition)

bad, evil, wicked (ethically)

in general, of persons, of thoughts

deeds, actions

n m
evil, distress, misery, injury, calamity

evil, distress, adversity

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

n f
evil, misery, distress, injury

evil, misery, distress

evil, injury, wrong

evil (ethical)

Oh, so far as I remember I've never had a problem with the concept of God saving all. It's clearly within His power as He claims it and if it's within the range of His mercy which He also intimates it is, why would I expect otherwise. The original problems I had was that while I believed and understood 'everlasting' meant 'everlasting' I could hope it wasn't meant literally such hope felt to be disingenuous to the text. To a degree such arguments still do, I much prefer this direct comments like Romans 5:15 which the likes of the NLT translators and commentators try to sabotage because it clearly states that God has already saved all through Jesus. They are much stronger. Without them, I doubt UR would be very compelling beyond our internal hope that it is true. We'd all be thinking like those NLT commentators but have nothing substantial to base our hope on.

No, my doubt comes from the fact that by whole experience with the world is eventually alienating others without effort. I am very uncomfortable in the presence of people in the physical world and have no capacity I have discovers to change this. Since God declares that 'it is not good for man to be alone' there's very little good about me. Since this continues and I've never been given an exit that I can see but the world has often presented hardship upon hardship it becomes harder to believe in God's love and then everlasting torment becomes a plausible scenario because it's not too different to now it seems and God can manage that easily enough.

That's just cynicism, I don't like cynicism I feel that it's sin 0. Cynicism is a trap every falls into without even realizing that it's a trap and they should try harder not to. They just think it's a valid worldview even though it means violating both the high commandments. But much of this is whinging. I know the hardships in my life hardly compare to those in the lives of so many others. It just so happens I seem to lack qualities that I would hold as fundamentally important for salvation, that might make me difficult to save.

Grr, and now you're making my point for me. Above you said I was doing just fine suddenly I'm carnally minded and my 'human logic' is a stumbling. Sorry my 'human logic' is kind of me. It's not 'human logic' it's just logic. And if it's wrong it's because there's a flaw somewhere in it that I haven't found yet. Human has nothing to do with it, your logic happens to be different it doesn't mean it's magically divine and you've managed to supersede your human logic you're still human and think like a human. The Bible says, 'Come now, let us reason together.' (Isaiah 1:18) hardly an argument against human reason compared to divine reason they seem perfectly compatible.

All you're doing is proving my above point. This site has a rule that says you're not supposed to question the innerancy of the Bible. All I'm doing is stating the Bible as it's written and your claiming that my natural reading of this clear rendering is wrong based on highly involved applications of parts of the Bible that have no immediately obvious connection to the area of discussion. I'm making a point, because people on this site when arguing for the innerancy of the Bible also argue for the literal reading unless the surrounding text means you can't take it literally. I dispute that by the fact that if you follow that to it's natural conclusion you end up with ridiculous understandings like everyone turning back into fetuses. And I don't think Jesus literally meant that when He said we had to be born again it just sounds like that if you take it literally to its uttermost.

I've got a lot to say about the statement you're referencing from the ambiguous part of John 3, but this may not be the case for it.

QuoteOh, so far as I remember I've never had a problem with the concept of God saving all. It's clearly within His power as He claims it and if it's within the range of His mercy which He also intimates it is, why would I expect otherwise. The original problems I had was that while I believed and understood 'everlasting' meant 'everlasting' I could hope it wasn't meant literally such hope felt to be disingenuous to the text. To a degree such arguments still do, I much prefer this direct comments like Romans 5:15 which the likes of the NLT translators and commentators try to sabotage because it clearly states that God has already saved all through Jesus. They are much stronger. Without them, I doubt UR would be very compelling beyond our internal hope that it is true. We'd all be thinking like those NLT commentators but have nothing substantial to base our hope on.

No, my doubt comes from the fact that by whole experience with the world is eventually alienating others without effort. I am very uncomfortable in the presence of people in the physical world and have no capacity I have discovers to change this. Since God declares that 'it is not good for man to be alone' there's very little good about me. Since this continues and I've never been given an exit that I can see but the world has often presented hardship upon hardship it becomes harder to believe in God's love and then everlasting torment becomes a plausible scenario because it's not too different to now it seems and God can manage that easily enough.

That's just cynicism, I don't like cynicism I feel that it's sin 0. Cynicism is a trap every falls into without even realizing that it's a trap and they should try harder not to. They just think it's a valid worldview even though it means violating both the high commandments. But much of this is whinging. I know the hardships in my life hardly compare to those in the lives of so many others. It just so happens I seem to lack qualities that I would hold as fundamentally important for salvation, that might make me difficult to save.

Grr, and now you're making my point for me. Above you said I was doing just fine suddenly I'm carnally minded and my 'human logic' is a stumbling. Sorry my 'human logic' is kind of me. It's not 'human logic' it's just logic. And if it's wrong it's because there's a flaw somewhere in it that I haven't found yet. Human has nothing to do with it, your logic happens to be different it doesn't mean it's magically divine and you've managed to supersede your human logic you're still human and think like a human. The Bible says, 'Come now, let us reason together.' (Isaiah 1:18) hardly an argument against human reason compared to divine reason they seem perfectly compatible.

All you're doing is proving my above point. This site has a rule that says you're not supposed to question the innerancy of the Bible. All I'm doing is stating the Bible as it's written and your claiming that my natural reading of this clear rendering is wrong based on highly involved applications of parts of the Bible that have no immediately obvious connection to the area of discussion. I'm making a point, because people on this site when arguing for the innerancy of the Bible also argue for the literal reading unless the surrounding text means you can't take it literally. I dispute that by the fact that if you follow that to it's natural conclusion you end up with ridiculous understandings like everyone turning back into fetuses. And I don't think Jesus literally meant that when He said we had to be born again it just sounds like that if you take it literally to its uttermost.

I've got a lot to say about the statement you're referencing from the ambiguous part of John 3, but this may not be the case for it.

  CST , 
So glad we made some  kind   communication ....  Hopeful    ,,

I  believe you  in the very place I was   many years ago and it does  get better ,Thanks be to God  for His mercy and great patience  with us ,,,   I   wanted a pure Word bible   , the most excellent  one   that  as trustworthy ..


  So I did not   read any other  bible translation    . for the fear of being ''unfaithful ''  to God  , and wanted to  stay  clean .. I think those things are admirable   as to trying to be faithful in a ''few things '' .   We  will get   to the place where any  and all the translations can offer  you some kind of meat , you just have to spit out the bones. lol 
   You  will  be able to   take up'' serpents ''  the wisdom of men  that are crooked  and   they can become ''rods'' in your hand ,  straighten''  as a rod of correction   and used for His love and glory  in trusting  Him more ,because the Word of truth along with the Spirit of Truth are working in you  and witness  yo you   or you  can  drink anything deadly  ''poison  ''and it will not harm you ,  Because the WORD in you is stronger  than that death  working in you .

   I know God knows how to  deal with each one of us  as   we come a long .   When the Light comes and brings  understanding as long as we continue to trust and wait on the LORD to show us    Himself by the   Word of truth and Spirit  of TRUTH working in you though the experiences , trials of faith    , this convicts of   sin in error  , and  Satan's voice looses it power over you /that accusing  spirit making us feel guilty before God and cannot approach the Throne of grace ...

You are right about the   new birth of being Spirit   is not as important   as the  3 stages of Spiritual growth     we also have the the  testimony of John  that is, "babes", "young men" and "fathers".

It is God doing His  work in you , we learn to be thankful and grateful and pleasing in His  sight , becoming  obedient   to hear His Voice   and this is LIFE to us , no longer walking in death , but in the Spirit of life ..


It might be   that our intentions are good  , but with the wrong spirit , that being lack of Love for God and our fellow mankind[Jesus Christ is ther love of GOD manifested to us  and the Royal law ]    , we are    found in  that same  state of hypocrisy

  as the Word of truth within  judges us  ,the same as the unbelievers  as the Spirit of truth bear witness in us    and this is Holy Spirit conviction   and the devil has nothing to do with it   , but found in the same boat as , an accuser of the brethren  a liar and murderer,  works of iniquity  not knowing Jesus Christ at all   because these are the works /fruit that deny Him   working in you ...
Love your enemies and pray for them Matt 5 perfection/complete in God  and Like Him  in  every way .  ,  all the knowledge of God in the world without LOVE   , pure and HOLY LOVE   coming  from Him  working in you    is pointless and useless   , and proves the point we have not arrived  yet .
   

Quote from: rosered on August 19, 2016, 07:06:48 PM

QuoteOh, so far as I remember I've never had a problem with the concept of God saving all. It's clearly within His power as He claims it and if it's within the range of His mercy which He also intimates it is, why would I expect otherwise. The original problems I had was that while I believed and understood 'everlasting' meant 'everlasting' I could hope it wasn't meant literally such hope felt to be disingenuous to the text. To a degree such arguments still do, I much prefer this direct comments like Romans 5:15 which the likes of the NLT translators and commentators try to sabotage because it clearly states that God has already saved all through Jesus. They are much stronger. Without them, I doubt UR would be very compelling beyond our internal hope that it is true. We'd all be thinking like those NLT commentators but have nothing substantial to base our hope on.

No, my doubt comes from the fact that by whole experience with the world is eventually alienating others without effort. I am very uncomfortable in the presence of people in the physical world and have no capacity I have discovers to change this. Since God declares that 'it is not good for man to be alone' there's very little good about me. Since this continues and I've never been given an exit that I can see but the world has often presented hardship upon hardship it becomes harder to believe in God's love and then everlasting torment becomes a plausible scenario because it's not too different to now it seems and God can manage that easily enough.

That's just cynicism, I don't like cynicism I feel that it's sin 0. Cynicism is a trap every falls into without even realizing that it's a trap and they should try harder not to. They just think it's a valid worldview even though it means violating both the high commandments. But much of this is whinging. I know the hardships in my life hardly compare to those in the lives of so many others. It just so happens I seem to lack qualities that I would hold as fundamentally important for salvation, that might make me difficult to save.

Grr, and now you're making my point for me. Above you said I was doing just fine suddenly I'm carnally minded and my 'human logic' is a stumbling. Sorry my 'human logic' is kind of me. It's not 'human logic' it's just logic. And if it's wrong it's because there's a flaw somewhere in it that I haven't found yet. Human has nothing to do with it, your logic happens to be different it doesn't mean it's magically divine and you've managed to supersede your human logic you're still human and think like a human. The Bible says, 'Come now, let us reason together.' (Isaiah 1:18) hardly an argument against human reason compared to divine reason they seem perfectly compatible.

All you're doing is proving my above point. This site has a rule that says you're not supposed to question the innerancy of the Bible. All I'm doing is stating the Bible as it's written and your claiming that my natural reading of this clear rendering is wrong based on highly involved applications of parts of the Bible that have no immediately obvious connection to the area of discussion. I'm making a point, because people on this site when arguing for the innerancy of the Bible also argue for the literal reading unless the surrounding text means you can't take it literally. I dispute that by the fact that if you follow that to it's natural conclusion you end up with ridiculous understandings like everyone turning back into fetuses. And I don't think Jesus literally meant that when He said we had to be born again it just sounds like that if you take it literally to its uttermost.

I've got a lot to say about the statement you're referencing from the ambiguous part of John 3, but this may not be the case for it.

  CST , 
So glad we made some  kind   communication ....  Hopeful    ,,

I  believe you  in the very place I was   many years ago and it does  get better ,Thanks be to God  for His mercy and great patience  with us ,,,   I   wanted a pure Word bible   , the most excellent  one   that  as trustworthy ..


  So I did not   read any other  bible translation    . for the fear of being "unfaithful "  to God  , and wanted to  stay  clean .. I think those things are admirable   as to trying to be faithful in a "few things " .   We  will get   to the place where any  and all the translations can offer  you some kind of meat , you just have to spit out the bones. lol 
   You  will  be able to   take up" serpents "  the wisdom of men  that are crooked  and   they can become "rods" in your hand ,  straighten"  as a rod of correction   and used for His love and glory  in trusting  Him more ,because the Word of truth along with the Spirit of Truth are working in you  and witness  yo you   or you  can  drink anything deadly  "poison  "and it will not harm you ,  Because the WORD in you is stronger  than that death  working in you .

   I know God knows how to  deal with each one of us  as   we come a long .   When the Light comes and brings  understanding as long as we continue to trust and wait on the LORD to show us    Himself by the   Word of truth and Spirit  of TRUTH working in you though the experiences , trials of faith    , this convicts of   sin in error  , and  Satan's voice looses it power over you /that accusing  spirit making us feel guilty before God and cannot approach the Throne of grace ...

You are right about the   new birth of being Spirit   is not as important   as the  3 stages of Spiritual growth     we also have the the  testimony of John  that is, "babes", "young men" and "fathers".

It is God doing His  work in you , we learn to be thankful and grateful and pleasing in His  sight , becoming  obedient   to hear His Voice   and this is LIFE to us , no longer walking in death , but in the Spirit of life ..


It might be   that our intentions are good  , but with the wrong spirit , that being lack of Love for God and our fellow mankind[Jesus Christ is ther love of GOD manifested to us  and the Royal law ]    , we are    found in  that same  state of hypocrisy

  as the Word of truth within  judges us  ,the same as the unbelievers  as the Spirit of truth bear witness in us    and this is Holy Spirit conviction   and the devil has nothing to do with it   , but found in the same boat as , an accuser of the brethren  a liar and murderer,  works of iniquity  not knowing Jesus Christ at all   because these are the works /fruit that deny Him   working in you ...
Love your enemies and pray for them Matt 5 perfection/complete in God  and Like Him  in  every way .  ,  all the knowledge of God in the world without LOVE   , pure and HOLY LOVE   coming  from Him  working in you    is pointless and useless   , and proves the point we have not arrived  yet .

Huh, what? I do think I've ever looked for a pure word Bible. If you want one of those you are best trying to translate it yourself and even then you certainly won't succeed. It's interest you cite Mark 16 because that is very much one of the reasons why.

Mark 16:9-20, which your quotes about taking up serpents and drinking poison without harm come from what is called by modern scholars The Longer Ending Of Mark (there also a Shorter Ending Of Mark). Here's the thing, the Bible isn't simple a collection of copies of the books that make it up. The books were written in the day by many people and copied many times over by different hands. The result being, that though accident or design there are actually several versions of the same book contain numerous differences of various significance. The book of mark is a real howler for this.

The reason for the that is that several of the manuscripts that are often identified as the earliest copies come to mark 16:8 and stop. In those 'early' manuscripts the line 'And they went out and fled from the tomb; for trembling and astonishment had come upon them; and they said nothing to any one, for they were afraid.' is the end of the work. The general understanding even among the vast majority of scholars and Bible commentators is that they concede that either this is how Mark ended his Gospel (perhaps intending to continue with his own accounts of the Acts of the Apostles like Luke did or he just didn't finish it) or the original ending was lost.

The are also at least two significant other sorts of manuscripts, The Shorter Ending Of Mark, which is an extension of verse 8 and reads: 'And they reported all the instructions briefly to Peter's companions. Afterwards Jesus himself, through them, sent forth from east to west the sacred and imperishable proclamation of eternal salvation. Amen.' and The Longer Ending Of Mark which is contained in most Bibles even while many Bible commentators seem to be resigned to accepting that it's not authentic to the original text. To muddy the waters further they are yet more manuscripts and they include the longer ending and also add, as an extension of verse 14: 'And they excused themselves, saying, This age of lawlessness and unbelief is under Satan, who does not allow the truth and power of God to prevail over the unclean things dominated by the spirits.[28] Therefore, reveal your righteousness now. — thus they spoke to Christ. And Christ responded to them, The limit of the years of Satan's power is completed, but other terrible things draw near. And for those who sinned I was handed over to death, that they might return to the truth and no longer sin, in order that they might inherit the spiritual and incorruptible heavenly glory of righteousness.' So essentially that's four different versions of the Gospel according to Mark that are consider to be from different authors and not entirely compatible. This is because they're taken as containing different theologies and belief systems to each other, not being as continuous as they might originally seem and not even sharing belief entirely with the body text of Mark.

You can research this online this is just an introduction to how difficult the Bible can actually be to read and understand and indeed to translate.