Newbie Universalist Checking In

[rosered]

  I am convinced   that anyone whom believes in the  torment of  most of mankind is   still stuck under the law off sin and death   also   :thumbsup:

Eternal Torment is just a relocation plan.  It does nothing to remove sins from sinners.  Moses would have rather had been blotted out of the book of life if God wasn't going to remove the sins of Israel:

Exo 32:32  Yet now, if thou wilt forgive their sin; and if not, blot me, I pray thee, out of thy book which thou hast written.

So great is the abundance of God's salvation which will be testified of all in due time.

  and   as we judge so shall we be judged accordingly   , the Word judges  what is working in us  , life or death

   I see in your statement even Moses  was seeking death and it was fleeing from him    in the   above  scriptures   but not for His sake but the sake of the people   the error of sin is what causes   death  and it comes in many forms ..

Jer 8 Judah's Sin and Punishment
...2"They will spread them out to the sun, the moon and to all the host of heaven, which they have loved and which they have served, and which they have gone after and which they have sought, and which they have worshiped. They will not be gathered or buried; they will be as dung on the face of the ground.

3"And death will be chosen rather than life by all the remnant that remains of this evil family, that remains in all the places to which I have driven them," declares the LORD of hosts.

4"You shall say to them, 'Thus says the LORD, "Do men fall and not get up again? Does one turn away and not repent?...
Gods hand is stretched out still  desiring that those  whom reap what they sow  in the flesh and its corruption  will repent    and change their minds  and hearts towards God , when you get utterly so sick of evil   and all its harm  and Beg for Gods mercy on all mankind     , that is blood shed   of the innocent   for  the guilty  , Forgive them Father they do not know what they are doing   .... suffering   for evil is the cause of Christ  and His cross ,  if we suffer with Him  and die to this world also .  "It is a faithful saying: For if we be dead with Him, we shall also live with Him: if we suffer, we shall also reign with Him." -- 2 Tim 2:11,12. "Most gladly therefore will I rather glory in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me." -- 2 Cor. 12:9.

For all this his anger is not turned away, but his hand is stretched out still. (Isaiah 5:25; 9:12, 17, 21; 10:4)    God  sent His innocent Son   for the guilty , and vengeance is the Lords and He shall repay   the guilty  for the shedding of innocent blood ...
   
Revelation 9:6
In those days men will seek death and will not find it; they will long to die, but death will escape them.

Deuteronomy 30:1
"So it shall be when all of these things have come upon you, the blessing and the curse which I have set before you, and you call them to mind in all nations where the LORD your God has banished you,

Deuteronomy 30:4
"If your outcasts are at the ends of the earth, from there the LORD your God will gather you, and from there He will bring you back.

Job 3:21
Who long for death, but there is none, And dig for it more than for hidden treasures,

Job 3:22
Who rejoice greatly, And exult when they find the grave?

Job 7:15
So that my soul would choose suffocation, Death rather than my pains.

Job 7:16
"I waste away; I will not live forever. Leave me alone, for my days are but a breath.

Jeremiah 6:9
Thus says the LORD of hosts, "They will thoroughly glean as the vine the remnant of Israel; Pass your hand again like a grape gatherer Over the branches."

    I believe we put way to much stock in the temporary  things of this world   especially when it comes to religious mindsets  , when our true hope is in the  eternal weight and Glory  of God yet to be  made known .

2 Corinthians 4:16 (ESV)
16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self is wasting away, our inner self/man is being renewed day by day.


15 For it is all for your sake, so that as grace extends to more and more people it may increase thanksgiving, to the glory of God.

16 So we do not lose heart. Though our outer self/man  is wasting away, our inner self/man  is being renewed day by day.

17 For this light momentary affliction is preparing for us an eternal weight of glory beyond all comparison,

18 as we look not to the things that are seen but to the things that are unseen. For the things that are seen are transient, but the things that are unseen are eternal.


  Faith in God    and to His glory,    none can  glory in anything but God Himself   :dsunny:    the Will of God is that NONE  should perish , the inner man is saved , but all   the outer man was judged already to   weakness   and  perish  in the using ..

[CST]

Amen, it's surprising to me that the view is (somehow) 'free will' - but I can't see how it's considered free will when most (all before being saved) do not have all the facts.. so any choice made, is not 'free'. I chalk all "strong delusions" up to enchantment! A fancy word for it, how "the 'god' of this world has blinded the minds". A veil.. But all in all, this travail through this vail is what is proving good from evil (which I think is also life from death / perfection from imperfection and true from not true; an all important foundation lesson). And I think it ends up to be a very long lesson. With some chosen to believe during this lifetime, and then also, some to be aware of the whole gospel news during this life time.. And more and more I think during the millennium, believers of all sorts, will be students and teachers.. And so those who have more (as in the parable of the talents) will be given yet more, and those who haven't will lose what they think they have.. As the one who buried the one talent the master gave to them.. but the ones who put their talents to the use receive double what they had put to the usury.. And then, after 1000 years of that, then Judgment 'Day', which increasingly I think will be a second age of intense learning (believers serving as teachers and counselors, called "reigning with Christ")..

Imagine how Jesus said "if you say to this mountain be cast into the sea and if you believe it will happen.. I have to believe, anyone having that sort of potential, really, really needs to fully understand good from evil.. and totally, totally believe it.. breathe it, know it.. With absolutely no doubt. I figure understanding what is life from what is death/nonlife. If "the soul that sins, it shall die" - if all fully know that imperfection is the opposite of life.. i.e. to be imperfect in any tiny way ='s death, annihilation, we should absolutely realize that to go that way is totally futile.. all fully knowing "go not that way" -  the way of self interest vs the way of LOVE..

Well.. that was long winded, when all I wanted to say was I believe even the Et gospel is serving His purpose.. A lot of this life I believe is for "contrast". His paradise/perfection as compared to all of history. The utter Glory of truth as compared to the futility and horror of untruth...

To be honest, thinking on these lines is when the idea that some will not be saved becomes most plausible, not eternal torment, there's nothing plausible about that but to choose a relationship, and this is important, is always a matter of faith, it's not possible to ever have all the facts when you elect to enter a relationship, only God can have this with His knowledge of all things and some even doubt He has that because it doesn't serve the needs of Free Will, which is held to be necessary for moral value.

But I repeat it's never possible to have all the facts and therefore anyone, in the end can choose that, on balance, they just don't trust God and reject what He offers whatever negative consequences entail from that. Obviously, I believe God (presumably combined with experience) can present all the necessary facts to illicit the necessary trust without compromising what is incorrectly called free will.

But I'm surprised to quote the rule of the state of possession. That passage really bothers me those who have only have because God gave those who do not have, lack because either God did not give or they were given and rejected because they lack (were not given) whatever was necessary to recognize they should keep what they were given. Which sounds like Calvinism to me.

And I don't think Jesus really expects anyone to be casting mountains into the see, any who has the faith to do that should also have the wisdom to know not to move God's strategically placed mountains.

But I do agree that the ET argument (not gospel, there's nothing 'good' about it) is serving His purposes, I'm fairly confident that the Bible teaches that everything serves His purposes or he can turn them to do so.