Hey guys! As someone who found this site about 2 weeks ago, the content here is really helpful.
I found out about this website from the Rethinking Hell website after listening to their episode with Robin Parry in it. About 8 months ago, listening to them changed my view about Hell to Conditionalism, and that was surprising to me around that time. Now, though I still have some questions about UR, I probably would call my self a Universalist. Thinking about that recently has really given me a sense of joy; a new understanding of God. I never came to this position emotionally, but through understanding Scripture more. About 2 years ago, I encountered Calvinism through Facebook when I was on there, and then preceded to call myself a Calvinist up until now. This partially has to do with one of my questions.
I guess I will list my couple main questions here. My first is, when Scripture talks about, say, "all," "us" and "world," I remember in the Facebook group (Reformed Pub for those interested) claimed that "all" in Greek actually meant all who believe, and "world" and "us" in Greek was actually referring to a specific people and not "everyone." Can someone confirm this? Does this affect UR, and why or why not?
Second, continuing on my first question on "all," in 1 Corinthians 15:22, does the meaning of "all" change between "For as in Adam all die," and "So also in Christ all shall be made alive?" I am using the ESV here ( Side note: I remember in the FB group they called it the "Elect Standard Version")
Third, does Predestination and Foreknowledge/Election affect UR? I am curious where in the Bible I can find where everyone is predestined.
Last, Any good resources for UR? Soon I am going to buy "The Evangelical Universalist," "The One purpose of God," "Christ Triumphant...," and "The Inescapable Love of God." Are there any other good resources similar to these? I love to read about things I am interested in, and this is one of those things.
If anyone is interested, I can tell you more about myself. Cheers!
Hi!
When I just started reading on universalism, I found the two most helpful resources to be:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html
And
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm
For specific questions (eg certain scriptures) I often found the Articles and Scholars Corner sections very helpful, and of course the board over here.
I have no answers for you now, but certainly others will!
Welcome on the board, and may God grant you wisdom as you seek to know Him and understand His ways.
Hi and welcome. Folks will weigh in on various things you've brought up. There are folks who have the "ins and outs" of 'all'.
I myself also believe in predestination or election. I believe the predestined are the ekklesia, the "called out ones", separated for a purpose now (to prepare and be used to bring the rest in). I see those being brought in later as destined..perhaps at least some of them if not all, His "sheep of another pasture". Every knee will bow and every tongue confess Jesus is Lord, to the glory of the Father. No one can call Jesus Lord except IN (most literal translation) the Holy Spirit. Confess Jesus as Lord, believe in your heart God raised Him from the dead, and you will be saved. Just sort of how I see it all tying together. :)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 05, 2017, 06:34:45 PM
Hey guys! As someone who found this site about 2 weeks ago, the content here is really helpful.
I found out about this website from the Rethinking Hell website after listening to their episode with Robin Parry in it. About 8 months ago, listening to them changed my view about Hell to Conditionalism, and that was surprising to me around that time. Now, though I still have some questions about UR, I probably would call my self a Universalist. Thinking about that recently has really given me a sense of joy; a new understanding of God. I never came to this position emotionally, but through understanding Scripture more. About 2 years ago, I encountered Calvinism through Facebook when I was on there, and then preceded to call myself a Calvinist up until now. This partially has to do with one of my questions.
I guess I will list my couple main questions here. My first is, when Scripture talks about, say, "all," "us" and "world," I remember in the Facebook group (Reformed Pub for those interested) claimed that "all" in Greek actually meant all who believe, and "world" and "us" in Greek was actually referring to a specific people and not "everyone." Can someone confirm this? Does this affect UR, and why or why not?
Second, continuing on my first question on "all," in 1 Corinthians 15:22, does the meaning of "all" change between "For as in Adam all die," and "So also in Christ all shall be made alive?" I am using the ESV here ( Side note: I remember in the FB group they called it the "Elect Standard Version")
Third, does Predestination and Foreknowledge/Election affect UR? I am curious where in the Bible I can find where everyone is predestined.
Last, Any good resources for UR? Soon I am going to buy "The Evangelical Universalist," "The One purpose of God," "Christ Triumphant...," and "The Inescapable Love of God." Are there any other good resources similar to these? I love to read about things I am interested in, and this is one of those things.
If anyone is interested, I can tell you more about myself. Cheers!
To answer your questions:
"All" means "All". Obviously, UR depends on this, any 'Churches' that don't hold UR believe it doesn't because it can't but there's nothing in the Greek text that suggest it should be taken that way or they'd have the argument. But they believe not all will be 'saved' - where 'saved' means entering the presence of God in the New Jerusalem - so they conclude it can't mean 'all'.
Again, no the meaning does not change and the grammar is clear, those who don't hold to UR like to play about with the grammar in translation to try and limit the 'all' but that's just disingenuous.
The answer to question three is that if UR is true, Predestination is part of the mechanism that brings it about. If Free Will is true, that is the mechanism that brings UR about. If UR is true it will come to pass by whatever mechanism god is using to guide the unfolding of human history. And UR is true.
Any good resources for UR? Yes, this site and its sisters sites. They are all good resources although there's a lot to get through.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 05, 2017, 06:34:45 PM
Hey guys! As someone who found this site about 2 weeks ago, the content here is really helpful.
I found out about this website from the Rethinking Hell website after listening to their episode with Robin Parry in it. About 8 months ago, listening to them changed my view about Hell to Conditionalism, and that was surprising to me around that time. Now, though I still have some questions about UR, I probably would call my self a Universalist. Thinking about that recently has really given me a sense of joy; a new understanding of God. I never came to this position emotionally, but through understanding Scripture more. About 2 years ago, I encountered Calvinism through Facebook when I was on there, and then preceded to call myself a Calvinist up until now. This partially has to do with one of my questions.
I guess I will list my couple main questions here. My first is, when Scripture talks about, say, "all," "us" and "world," I remember in the Facebook group (Reformed Pub for those interested) claimed that "all" in Greek actually meant all who believe, and "world" and "us" in Greek was actually referring to a specific people and not "everyone." Can someone confirm this? Does this affect UR, and why or why not?
Second, continuing on my first question on "all," in 1 Corinthians 15:22, does the meaning of "all" change between "For as in Adam all die," and "So also in Christ all shall be made alive?" I am using the ESV here ( Side note: I remember in the FB group they called it the "Elect Standard Version")
Third, does Predestination and Foreknowledge/Election affect UR? I am curious where in the Bible I can find where everyone is predestined.
Last, Any good resources for UR? Soon I am going to buy "The Evangelical Universalist," "The One purpose of God," "Christ Triumphant...," and "The Inescapable Love of God." Are there any other good resources similar to these? I love to read about things I am interested in, and this is one of those things.
If anyone is interested, I can tell you more about myself. Cheers!
First off ..... WELCOME ..... you will find many riches in the people here
Believe it or not but you have your answer in your questions and it comes down to faith and what you believe:
If 1 Corinthians 15:22, "For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive?" is true and in that "all" means all with both terms (and you believe it does) then that is the evidence that all of mankind has been predestined
If it doesn't mean "all" for both terms, that is the evidence for them because that is what they believe.
If this was a court case ..... The same evidence is used by both parties ..... you are the judge, make a ruling on who is presenting the evidence in the proper light
Ask yourself this question: is there "a shadow of confusion" being presented by one party that is trying to include something that is not there?
Thanks for the reply's so far! From what I have been perusing on here so far, it seems this is a great community to be a part of. :)
Whenever I read the verses that mention all and such, from being told by Calvinists who claimed that all and such is only for the elect, my mind always jumps to that, even though I can see it clearly does not fit within the overall view of Scripture.
Anyways, how did you guys come to know UR/this website? Have you always felt that God saves everyone eventually, and have you ever felt challenged on that belief, or grown in it?
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2017, 05:09:13 AM
Thanks for the reply's so far! From what I have been perusing on here so far, it seems this is a great community to be a part of. :)
I'm glad you feel that way about this community ..... It has helped me a lot in my journey of understanding
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2017, 05:09:13 AM
Whenever I read the verses that mention all and such, from being told by Calvinists who claimed that all and such is only for the elect, my mind always jumps to that, even though I can see it clearly does not fit within the overall view of Scripture.
Just like those in the wilderness, some thought they were better off back in Egypt (in bondage), and I am sure with others, there mind would wander back to those times, and just like you say "even though I can see it clearly does not fit within the overall view of Scripture", they also new that "bondage" does not clearly fit in with the idea of "freedom".
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2017, 05:09:13 AM
Anyways, how did you guys come to know UR/this website?
For me, I was told about this board and brought here by another who I had met on another Christian chat board that allows all three viewpoints to be discussed ...... "none", "some" and "all" ..... but clearly sides with the doctrines of religion (the "some" point of view)
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2017, 05:09:13 AM
Have you always felt that God saves everyone eventually,
No, I was raised with the belief that only "some" would be saved, and my parents took us kids to church, but it was to which ever one was closest to home. Not until God got a hold of me at the ripe age of 46 did I fully believe in the "some" doctrines, but even then I was only fully indoctrinated for 2 years. When I was led to change jobs, with the seed of "all" already being planted in me, He got me alone, away from the distractions of religion. But even then it took a couple of years for me to be completely convinced that "all" would be saved.
Quote from: MusicLover123 on October 07, 2017, 05:09:13 AM
and have you ever felt challenged on that belief, or grown in it?
I use to be challenged at times on this belief during that couple of years of being convinced by Him, but now ..... there is no doubt in my mind whatsoever and I will not back away from what I now know to be truth.
As for growing in it ..... that is exactly what takes place all the time, we have entered into His process of refining, and His refining process does not stop.
Another way to look at it is: Animal life stops growing at a certain point and it is called maturity, whereas plant life can reach the point of maturity but can keep growing. We become a tree of life (as He is, so are we in this world) rather than an animal of the field.
Welcome MusicLover123 !
The scripture that made me first believe all was when it said CHRIST has tasted death for every man
and God knows sin has caused some great suffering in this world , all the hate and sin sickness and death surrounding each and everyone of us in this life .
It proves to me that they do hate Jesus without a cause because HE IS THE TRUTH !
Being bound to sin and only Jesus can , and does and will set the whole creation free , He is the WORD that Holds everything in its place . NOW IN POWER ...
Hebrews 2 ...
8and placed everything under his feet." When God subjected all things to him, He left nothing outside of his control.
Yet at present we do not see everything subject to him.
9But we see Jesus, who was made a little lower than the angels,
now crowned with glory and honor because He suffered death,
so that by the grace of God He might taste death for everyone.
10In bringing many sons to glory, it was fitting for God,
for whom and through whom all things exist, to make the pioneer of their salvation perfect through suffering.
To me , it is not over till it is over , and to many it has just begun , to truly see the LIGHT and Love of God rise up within them !
If the flesh counts for nothing , than why do so many put all their faith in the things of the flesh, this world and this life ?
Many religions cannot see beyond this stumbling block . we are to not see anyone , even Jesus , as flesh any longer either and yet so many still do and that is the only thing they can still see .
God has truly blessed this place ... no doubts about that ... blessings to you brother .
Hello MusicLover123 and welcome to Tentmaker forum! :hiya:
Just today, I read 2 Peter 2:17 - how it says (about the false 'gnostic' teachers in the churches of his day), "These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever." Looking the verse up in the word for word interlinear - http://biblehub.com/interlinear/2_peter/2-17.htm - I see that there actually is no "forever" - so where these false gnostic teachers were in mists of darkness, it actually doesn't say it's "forever". And I'm finding there are lots of verses (and even words) where the translators seem to very much carry things beyond the intent.
Jesus said the Kingdom of God is like three measures of meal, into which a woman puts leaven in the three measures (3 harvests! imo) "until ALL is leavened" - and I agree that all means all. - This #3 measures of meal - three loaves - remind me of the verses in 1 Corinthians 15:22-28, which begin with the verse you quoted:
- "22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ all shall be made alive. 23 But each one in his own order: (#1)Christ the firstfruits, afterward (#2)those who are Christ's at His coming. 24 Then (#3)comes the end, when He delivers the kingdom to God the Father, when He puts an end to all rule and all authority and power. 25 For He must reign till He has put all enemies under His feet. 26 The last enemy that will be destroyed is death. 27 For "He has put all things under His feet." But when He says "all things are put under Him," it is evident that He who put all things under Him is excepted. 28 Now when all things are made subject to Him, then the Son Himself will also be subject to Him who put all things under Him, that God may be (#3)all in all.
(24 "Then (#3)comes the end ....that God may be all in all.")
I never believed in a hell.. since coming to the Lord in 1979.. I did for a very short time wonder if perhaps God didn't create all and thus perhaps some would perish, but then came to my senses, for it says all came from one man, Adam..
It seems important to me that it says the "wages of sin is death" - the result of "missing the mark" (the Greek) "is death" but "God so loved the world He gave His only begotten/(straight out form Him one?) that whoever believes in Him will not "perish" but have everlasting life"
Then I noticed how all are resurrected.. those chosen (and the Greek word includes "by lot"! a lucky shake of the heavenly dice!) at the "first resurrection" and the rest "come to life after the thousand years (millennium of Jesus) is ended" - Now, logically, why raise all, only to (A.) throw them away, or (B.) torment them for ever and ever..?? Not logical, especially in light of His pristine character of "love" :smile:
Logically, it seems to me that God is both life and perfection.. that He's done, and engineered all things as He has in order (surely?) to bring about the best of all possible 'end' results. When He endowed thinking ability, a whole new world (er tree) of possibilities came about, because surely with rationality comes, sooner or later, the ability to make choices. So, oh dear, so came about imperfection, suffering and death (seeing as imperfection is the opposite of life/God/Perfection). [But I, for one am sure glad He endowed thinking ability.. just wish more ET brothers and sisters would use it more! lol]
And just think! By letting things run their course - thus in the 'end' proving truth and what is good from what is evil (life from death/nonlife) - all suffer, but He, being life, lives through, suffers and experiences it all.. all sufferings which ever occur!
Since coming regularly to tentmaker and the tentmaker forum, I have become more and more joyful! It's very strengthening to find and come together with others who recognize the true character of our heavenly Father.. who is, after all, love. And who believe in the full scope (and success!) of His "Great Plan of Salvation". The way the "good news"/"glad tidings" is so often communicated, suggests He will lose far more than He saves (rescues!) What sort of Al-mighty is thAt!? (Hardly.) But!! Perfect, surely(?) makes NO mistakes, and can lose nothing. "All things in heaven and earth are being gathered into Jesus" Colossians 1:20; Ephesians 1:10.
:banana: :Peace2:
Love Never Fails. 1 Corinthians13:8.
God is Love, and His love never fails.
He will love us all, back to our true home.
D.