Hi everyone,
I've been a Christian since I accepted Jesus as my savior at Bible camp as a kid. My mother took me and my siblings to church, and I was raised as an Evangelical. I don't remember Hell ever being a major focus on teaching, but it was always there, looming. Whenever I asked about what happens to people who have never heard the gospel and who died never knowing anything about Jesus, I was usually told to have faith, that God knows what he is doing. To be honest, I didn't want to pursue these ideas too far because I was afraid of what I might find.
When my grandmother died several years ago, it was my first real experience dealing with the death of a loved one. In my family only me, my mother, and my sisters were saved. My grandmother, raised a Lutheran, had enough of religion when she was young. I once offered to pray during Thanksgiving to give thanks to God, hoping to get some kind of reaction from my grandmother, but whenever anything to do with God came up, she just clammed up. So, given my Evangelical background, I could only assume that she wasn't saved and would not be in Heaven. My grandfather had died several years earlier, also unsaved, and my mother later told me that my grandmother had no interest in going to Heaven if her husband wasn't there. That stuck with me.
I also remember a friend of mine trying to reassure me by saying that he believes everyone will be given a choice even after death whether to accept Christ or not. Given the above, it really wasn't very assuring.
When I was in my early twenties, I had real passion for Jesus. God had pushed me to go beyond my self-imposed boundaries and act as a living witness to my faith. I even considered going into missionary work. But after my grandmother's death, my strong faith began to dry up. I'm not sure if it was a cause as much as a correlation, but it was around that point that I started to feel very numb. Opportunities in my life also seemed to dry up, and I started to lose confidence in myself, and especially in the idea that God could transform my life.
Thankfully, this dry period didn't last, and I eventually took some steps to make changes in my life. I went back to school for a different career, I started attending a small group, and I met the woman who became my wife. I want to say that my faith was rekindled, and in a way it was, but it really wasn't challenged very much. Our church was a "seeker-friendly" church that didn't really delve too deep into controversial subjects or question much about the traditions of men.
I wanted more than what the church was teaching. I desired solid food. I wanted answers to a lot of questions I had that were avoided in my church, such as eschatology. After realizing that I wasn't going to get those answers through my pastors, I began an intensive study of the Bible, particularly Revelations and Daniel, looking into the prophecies and seeing if I could figure out if we were really in the End-Times as some people said.
I spent years looking into this, and listening to every viewpoint I could find, and all I could find was a lot of disagreement and confusion over the End-Times. I finally decided that Futurism isn't for me, after all. I now hold to a Partial Preterist viewpoint, but I only hold onto this viewpoint with an open hand, since I could be wrong. That's a subject for another day.
What brought me here? My dad died a few months ago. I was devastated. We had never been particularly close, but I had always wanted my dad to be more involved in my life than he was. He was an old-school father who left all child-rearing to my mom, and never ever told us that he loved us as kids. I blew up at him when I was a teenager, not long after my parents were separated, and refused to speak with him for a few years. Eventually we reconciled, but we lived in different parts of the country, so we rarely spoke. He was never a Christian, but for some reason he married my mom who was a Christian, and after their divorce he later married another woman who was a Christian. This time he even accompanied her to church services, which he never did when I was a kid.
My view of God the Father had always been colored by my poor relationship with my own father. I loved Jesus, but I found God the Father too distant and harsh. This was something that I really struggled with as a teenager, and I do remember questioning how God could allow so many people to die unsaved, but I was too scared of the implications to delve deep into that idea.
Anyway, when my dad's wife died, he decided to move closer to us so he could be closer to his children and grandchildren. I found him a place close to my office, and I enjoyed taking him to doctor's appointments, going out for coffee or a drink, and bringing my son for visits. Finally, for the first time in my life, I felt like me and my dad had made amends. It wasn't perfect by any means, as we are both flawed humans, but it was great.
Then my dad's health, which had been fine, took a quick nosedive. I took him to the hospital and expected him to recover soon, but while the doctors were still trying to figure out what was wrong, he died only three days into his stay there. I was completely shocked and devastated. I was forced to really face the reality of death for the first time in my life.
The same questions I had when my grandmother died came back to me, but no one could offer me anything but condolences. I was confused and didn't know where to turn. I prayed for answers, and I tried to keep myself together so I wouldn't affect my own family. Every time I thought about my dad, I just felt sadness and despair. I found myself crying at random times. This was all part of the mourning process, but as an Evangelical Christian I also had to deal with the fact that my dad died unsaved. He had never confessed a belief in Jesus and was agnostic to the end. The only thing I could do was grieve and try to move on.
Only a month ago, someone I respect posted a blog post about Universal Reconciliation. I recall hearing that term, or something else like it, at other times in my past, but it was something I'd always dismissed out of hand before.
But I'd already thrown out the popular view of Hell out of my beliefs many years ago, and held to an idea more like C.S. Lewis, in which those who were unsaved chose to separate themselves from God for Eternity -- The Great Divorce. That idea was fine as long as it went unchallenged, but with the death of my father, it was still a very troubling idea.
I'd also been reading the work of Dr. Michael Heiser, who introduced me to the concept that the Bible needs to be read in its original context, that it was written for specific people at specific times, and while it is indeed also useful for us in our modern age, it was not written to us. So much of the hyperbolic language used in the bible about the end of the world and stars falling from the heavens, for example, are actually used to describe the end of an age and the fall from power of an earthly ruler.
Soon I found the writing of Thomas Talbott, and excerpted chapters of his book, The Inescapable Love of God, online and voraciously read them all in one sitting. I admit it was hard to hold myself together, and I tried telling my wife and my mom about the concepts of Universal Reconciliation and what I'd learned about the history of the doctrine of Hell in the church, but I probably didn't make myself too clear.
I found this site soon after, and have been busy reading every article I could find. I had nearly made it through the FAQ page when I discovered this forum and registered.
I still have a lot of questions, and I'm not ready to bring up any of these subjects with a pastor, but I have joy in my life for the first time in years.
Sorry for this long-winded post, but I must have had a lot to get off my chest. As an introvert, I communicate better through writing than through speaking, so I hope this message board will be a good place for discussion.
TL;DR: I'm grateful to be here.
Welcome!!!! I love reading everyone's stories on here. They are all unique but with an undercurrent of a common thread in some ways. So sorry about the death of your father. I am glad you have been brought to the truth of God's unfailing love :)
Welcome! Blessings.
Hi! Thanks for your testimony. Some of your discoveries have paralleled mine. It's always great to hear that God is doing the same kinds of work in other hearts all over the place. The internet has made that more and more possible. See the post by the ChristianBrother in India. Just amazing.
God bless you and keep you and cause His face to shine on you!
And yes, it's a great joy to begin to really experience some of the Truth that's been trampled on and hidden by the church, but I'd suggest that you get really, really grounded in your newer revelations before you start sharing them with others, especially those close to you and church people, including pastors. The closer and closer you get to the actual good news and revelation knowledge, and the power that follows, the more your words will be hated and resisted. And you'll likely be shocked at where it comes from. The spirit that rules religion does not tolerate the exposure of its fake teachings or its other, fake jesus, the one who condemns most of his created humans to eternal torture. Not trying to discourage you or tear you down but if you continue on what seems to be your path from your testimony, you are going to meet that spirit. You are going to need the Power of the Spirit and the experiential knowledge and wisdom from God to stand in the ensuing battle. It can get pretty fierce! He didn't lie when He said you would be persecuted and hated.
It's bad enough when you start messing with their eschatology, but when you start picking at their eternity and their 'hell', and their temples/priests/tithes, etc., Heaven help ya. You are, in Fact, confronting a world-wide, mankind-controlling, blaspheming, idolatrous, murdering, money-loving, power-loving Entity that masquerades as a bride of Christ and a messenger of light. Seems almost like talking crazy...but it's true.
Col 1:9 Therefore we also, from the day on which we hear, do not cease praying for you and requesting that you may be filled full with the realization of His will, in all wisdom and spiritual understanding,
Col 1:10 you to walk worthily of the Lord for all pleasing, bearing fruit in every good work, and growing in the realization of God;"
Col 1:11 being endued with all power, in accord with the might of His glory, for all endurance and patience with joy;"
Col 1:12 at the same time giving thanks to the Father, Who makes you competent for a part of the allotment of the saints, in light,
Col 1:13 Who rescues us out of the jurisdiction of Darkness, and transports us into the kingdom of the Son of His love,
Col 1:14 in Whom we are having deliverance, the pardon of sins,
Col 1:15 Who is the Image of the invisible God, Firstborn of every creature,
Col 1:16 for in Him is all created, that in the heavens and that on the earth, the visible and the invisible, whether thrones, or lordships, or sovereignties, or authorities, all is created through Him and for Him,
Col 1:17 and He is before all, and all has its cohesion in Him."
Col 1:18 And He is the Head of the body, the ecclesia, Who is Sovereign, Firstborn from among the dead, that in all He may be becoming first,
Col 1:19 for in Him the entire complement delights to dwell,
Col 1:20 and through Him to reconcile all to Him (making peace through the blood of His cross), through Him, whether those on the earth or those in the heavens."
Col 1:21 And you, being once estranged and enemies in comprehension, by wicked acts, yet now He reconciles"
Col 1:22 by His body of flesh, through His death, to present you holy and flawless and unimpeachable in His sight,
Col 1:23 since surely you are persisting in the faith, grounded and settled and are not being removed from the expectation of the evangel which you hear which is being heralded in the entire creation which is under heaven of which I, Paul, became the dispenser."
Thanks, everyone. And good point, Steven. I think I'm already considered a bit of a troublemaker with my pastors because of other questions I've been asking them over the last few years. I'd always thought I had a good rapport with my pastors until I started asking them hard questions. :dontknow: :sigh:
One thing I forgot to mention was that the analogy of God as our father, and we as his children really struck home. I'm a new dad with a toddler and another one on the way. Being a father has given me a glimpse (through a glass, darkly) of how much God truly loves us. We sing songs in church about how deep and vast the Father's love for us is, but I don't think we can ever really understand it perfectly.
It usually takes a lot of time and exposure to get an idea through this thick skull of mine, but once it does get through, it's powerful. I love my son so much, and would do anything to keep him safe. Could it be that God not only loves me that way (but much more deeply), but also my worst enemy?
I think the biggest stumbling block I have to Universal Reconciliation is my fleshly desire for justice (or vengeance). It's off-putting to think that even the worst people can and will be redeemed in the end. I know that's my sin nature, but part of me needs to know that, for example, people who hurt kids will be forced to face the results of their sin in full measure before being purified of sin.
Eventually I hope to be able to see other people the way God sees them, as children acting out, instead of my own myopic, misanthropic view of other humans.
Also, as I look back, so much of my faith has been based in fear of retribution, rather than love. God has given me glimpses of how much He loves me in the past, and they were very powerful. So why do I still slip into patterns of fear?
I know one thing: I don't want my son's life to be plagued by fear as he grows up. I want him to retain his childlike faith and love for God as he grows in knowledge.
Anyway, sorry for rambling. I don't really have too many other outlets to talk about this stuff, since people I know in real life don't seem as interested in delving deeper or challenging long-held beliefs.
AgapeWins,
You are 'Grateful to be here', I am 'Grateful you are here!'. Great posts!
Pat
StevenL,
I didn't know where to post, so here it is:
I just wanted to say that I'm enjoying your participation in the forum.
Pat
Quote from: AgapeWins on November 30, 2016, 07:02:16 AM
I know one thing: I don't want my son's life to be plagued by fear as he grows up. I want him to retain his childlike faith and love for God as he grows in knowledge.
God loves us more than we love our kids;
1 John 3;1,2 " Look what kind of love the Father has given us; THAT WE MAY BE CALLED THE CHILDREN OF GOD;
AND SO WE ARE!
The reason the world does not know us is because it did not know Him.
Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we will be.
BUT WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE WILL BE LIKE HIM,
because we will see Him as He is."
Quote from: Ross on November 30, 2016, 07:55:18 AM
Quote from: AgapeWins on November 30, 2016, 07:02:16 AM
I know one thing: I don't want my son's life to be plagued by fear as he grows up. I want him to retain his childlike faith and love for God as he grows in knowledge.
God loves us more than we love our kids;
1 John 3;1,2 " Look what kind of love the Father has given us; THAT WE MAY BE CALLED THE CHILDREN OF GOD;
AND SO WE ARE!
The reason the world does not know us is because it did not know Him.
Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we will be.
BUT WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE WILL BE LIKE HIM,
because we will see Him as He is."
:goodpost:
The truth is awesome.
Christ points out that our dad's would not make us eat stone, or give us bad fish- and God loves us more than they do.
Paul made the great statement in Romans 8;38,39 that literally NOTHING can keep us from the love of God in Christ Jesus Our Lord
Also love how Paul points out to the Galations, after explaining the difference between flesh and spirit;
Gal 6;15 " For neither circumcision, nor uncircumcision, is anything, but a new creation."
And the piece de resistance- all this was planned before the world began- ergo before Adam and Eve had sinned- so God must have been aware that would happen. Paul refers to that a few times;
Eph 1;4
I love Eph 3;9 The mystery which had been hidden for ages in God.
Add in; Eph 3;15 " From Whom every family IN HEAVEN AND ON EARTH derives it's name."
All pretty inspirational really. So much positive info leaping out of the living word.
Quote from: Patinak on November 30, 2016, 07:55:10 AM
StevenL,
I didn't know where to post, so here it is:
I just wanted to say that I'm enjoying your participation in the forum.
Pat
Thank you Pat. I've enjoyed everybody on here for quite a while before doing any posting. This site has some great resources. And the mods seem to tolerate some differences of opinion among the family while still keeping things civil. I appreciate that immensely. I can't learn anything if everybody has the same opinions. I have seen at times that someone who offers up something that I hate and regurgitate... turns out to be right or at least adds something invaluable to my knowledge bank.
"I think the biggest stumbling block I have to Universal Reconciliation is my fleshly desire for justice (or vengeance). It's off-putting to think that even the worst people can and will be redeemed in the end. I know that's my sin nature, but part of me needs to know that, for example, people who hurt kids will be forced to face the results of their sin in full measure before being purified of sin."
Agape... I think, if you're an Overcomer, your desire for justice will be satisfied because you'll see it done and will be one of the Priests who will be administering it! The second death, their death to sin, is going to HURT them. I pray God in judgment remember mercy. It's a fearful thing to contemplate. They will not have gotten away with anything. But thank God it's NOT eternal torture. I really kinda feel good thinking that even the devil/Adversary (if he's a created being), after he's done fulfilling his role that God created him for, will one day, ages in the future, be reconciled to God. I can't stand the thought of Any creature, evil or no, being tortured for ETERNITY. That's too hideous ... It sickens the mind and heart if you really ponder it much. Just my opinions of course.
AgapeWins:
I still have a lot of questions, and I'm not ready to bring up any of these subjects with a pastor, but I have joy in my life for the first time in years.
Ronny to AgapeWins:
You just put a smile on my face here, because you reminded me of the joy I had, when I first learned the truth, of God's universal salvation. :-) And just thinking lately, love and joy, those are the first two fruits of the Spirit. :-)
WELCOME!
Welcome, friend!
Thanks, everyone!
Since I haven't quite ventured out into the other boards yet (it's a bit intimidating, with so many threads to check out), I thought I'd share something else about me.
When I was a teenager, I used to walk around and wonder how many people passing me by were destined for Hell. I was fairly obsessed with the idea for years. It scared me to delve too deeply into the idea, but it was always there. As a coping mechanism, I started separating the "sheep" from the "goats" in my mind, and avoided the goats as much as possible. They were going somewhere else, after all, and I was determined to get to Heaven. I know now I was just judging people inwardly.
I think a lot of Christians must go through something similar, this judgmental phase. How else can you deal with the idea that God is sending all but a select few to Hell? (Yes, if you phrase it that way, most Christians today will play semantic games, saying that God isn't the one who sends them there, but they send themselves by rejecting him, but it amounts to the same thing.) When you accept the Doctrine of Hell, I think a part of you dies. It's why you'll meet so many Christians out there with nothing but coldness and suspicion in their eyes until you tell them that you're also a member of the exclusive Heaven Club.
Imagine if the institutional churches in the world woke up to the idea that there is no eternal punishment for the lost, but that everyone will be reconciled to Jesus Christ? Imagine what would happen if Christians started looking at unbelievers as brothers and sisters who just don't know how good we'll all have it one day?
I'm still processing through all these things, and praying for the Holy Spirit to reignite my deadened heart toward others. I don't want to have those cold eyes any more.
Quote from: Ross on November 30, 2016, 07:55:18 AM
Quote from: AgapeWins on November 30, 2016, 07:02:16 AM
I know one thing: I don't want my son's life to be plagued by fear as he grows up. I want him to retain his childlike faith and love for God as he grows in knowledge.
God loves us more than we love our kids;
1 John 3;1,2 " Look what kind of love the Father has given us; THAT WE MAY BE CALLED THE CHILDREN OF GOD;
AND SO WE ARE!
The reason the world does not know us is because it did not know Him.
Dear friends, at the present time we are children of God, and it has not yet been revealed what we will be.
BUT WE DO KNOW THAT WHEN HE IS REVEALED WE WILL BE LIKE HIM,
because we will see Him as He is."
Hi Ross, I can't find this in the KJB. Is it John 3, 1 and 2?
G'day: 1John 3:1,2 up towards Revelations
Much positive stuff around there
Welcome AgapeWins! :dsunny: What a lovely post!! (..just read your opening post)
I think probably a lot of us who visit here communicate best by writing! So I'm sure you are fitting right in!
Welcome!! I'm so happy you found the truth! It really does make us so happy doesn't it!
I've often thought how terrible it must be when losing a loved one, to not know the truth, the wonderful truth.. How totally devastating. It's bad enough, just that they are not around right now.. but how wonderful to know that's only for a while!! And how can we ever think anything less!?!
You touched on something else too, I think many believers though they love Jesus (a lot) they avoid relationship with the Father. That's just something I've been thinking about lately, how it must affect one and one's walk with the Lord.
God bless!
Quote from: Patinak on November 30, 2016, 07:55:10 AM
StevenL,
I didn't know where to post, so here it is:
I just wanted to say that I'm enjoying your participation in the forum.
Pat
Amen.. :iagree:
Awesome posts Ross! ...on the Father's love (and His Perfect character!) ..thanks :cloud9:
AgapeWins, "deadened heart" .."cold eyes" ...i used to feel a certain amount of 'guilt' for not being a churchgoer.. I think I finally sloughed the last of that off after coming by Tentmaker forum regularly.. if He wanted me in church I'd be there. I didn't find God or Jesus in church.. but in the Rocky Mountains.. and I've been kind of a hermit (spiritually).. studying etc mostly on my own (since '79, how time flies!) These days I'm very happy and thankful I've had that freedom.
What a great thread and good posts here! :))
QuoteWhen you accept the Doctrine of Hell, I think a part of you dies. It's why you'll meet so many Christians out there with nothing but coldness and suspicion in their eyes until you tell them that you're also a member of the exclusive Heaven Club.
So true.
Hi AgapeWins!
We all have a story.....and they are all important. I love to hear other's journeys to UR.
I think you will greatly enjoy this website. I know I do.
Be blessed to be a blessing!
D.
Agape Wins,
I also thought there was a line between those headed for heaven and all the others. But when I tried to draw where that line was it kept getting farther and farther out till finally I gave up and thought 'I can't figure this out, maybe God is just going to save everyone', not thinking that could really be true but within a year of that thought the light came on and I knew it was true. Now I see a crowd of people in a store or anywhere and I think 'God's going to get every single one of them'. And I love that thought.
Quote from: bushy on December 03, 2016, 10:23:29 PM
Agape Wins,
I also thought there was a line between those headed for heaven and all the others. But when I tried to draw where that line was it kept getting farther and farther out till finally I gave up and thought 'I can't figure this out, maybe God is just going to save everyone', not thinking that could really be true but within a year of that thought the light came on and I knew it was true. Now I see a crowd of people in a store or anywhere and I think 'God's going to get every single one of them'. And I love that thought.
Love literally conquers all.
I.M.O we are being shown what true love is actually all about- which takes time to appreciate to the max.
Quote from: Ross on December 04, 2016, 03:56:09 AM
Quote from: bushy on December 03, 2016, 10:23:29 PM
Agape Wins,
I also thought there was a line between those headed for heaven and all the others. But when I tried to draw where that line was it kept getting farther and farther out till finally I gave up and thought 'I can't figure this out, maybe God is just going to save everyone', not thinking that could really be true but within a year of that thought the light came on and I knew it was true. Now I see a crowd of people in a store or anywhere and I think 'God's going to get every single one of them'. And I love that thought.
Ross:
Love literally conquers all.
I.M.O we are being shown what true love is actually all about- which takes time to appreciate to the max.
Ronny to AgapeWins and Ross:
Amen and amen, to what you both said! :-) And just remembering 6 or 7 years ago, when I first heard of Universal Reconciliation. At the time, I sure wished such was true; but I doubted it was. To me, it just sounded too good to be true! (ha) Got that big doubt, from growing up in a Calvinist teaching church. Where of course, I was taught, that God had chosen to save some people and God had chosen for the rest, to go to hell. But then 21 years ago and on something else, God had taught me what to do, in such a situation. I was to depend on God to guide me, as I read what some people had to say and the scriptures they cited, to back up what they believed. And in doing this, I came to see, that Universal Reconciliation, was taught in the bible and did come from God! And that Jesus Christ was indeed the Saviour and that of everyone, from Adam on down! :-) Before this, it had even gotten hard for me to go grocery shopping. Why? Because I had been taught most people I saw, from the very old to the very young, were going to end up in hell! :-( Now it is a pleasure, to go shopping, because I know everyone I see, from young to the very old, will end up just fine. And there is coming a time, when we will all be together and I will get to meet them all! :-) And I'm pretty hard of hearing, even with a hearing aid. I never know who I'm going to be able to understand or not understand? But after learning the truth of UR, I find I strike up a conversation and talk to more and more people! :-) When I believe in a Jesus Christ created hell of eternal torment, with most people going there, I simply couldn't do that. But now that God has shown me the truth of this matter, I'm becoming more and more outgoing. :-) I mean, how could I not be, knowing that we well all end up, just fine, thanks to God/Jesus Christ. :-)
Thinking too, about when I first learned the truth of Universal Reconciliation. It was so good and God reminded me of then I was first born of God, at 16 years old. For it was then, when God saved me, that God gave me a love for all people and a desire that all people have a relationship with God/Jesus Christ, as I then had. :-) And when I found out, that such was to be, then I was reminded of the scripture that tells us, God gives us the desires of our heart! :-) Not surprisingly, God put one thing in my heart and my local church taught me, that such could not be and was not going to happen. But then in time, God taught me better. :-) Just as in time, God will teach everyone better! :-)
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: