Free will and eternal hell

[bobf]

2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

So would you say it is possible for God (or anyone or anything for that matter) to cause you make a certain choice, while at the same time you still made the choice?

[WhiteWings]

2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

So would you say it is possible for God (or anyone or anything for that matter) to cause you make a certain choice, while at the same time you still made the choice?

A 100% certain yes.
The simple answer is yes nothing is impossible for God.
Another answer is best stated as a question to you.

Bob I give you 2 choices. No hard feeling whatever you choose.
a] I give you 2 cents.
b] I torture your whole town including your family to death.

As said no hard feelings from me whatever you choose. So don't be scared of me.
Would you choice really be of free will?

[martincisneros]

We have free will.  There's no question about that, as the child that was told to sit down who grumbled to himself that he might be sitting on the outside, but he's standing on the inside.  What people confuse for a lack of free will is the current level of futility to existance:

for to will is present with me, but how to perform what is good I do not find. (Romans 7:18)

And then talking about after Jesus was raised from the dead, the Bible says: "For the creation was subjected to futility" (Romans 8:20)

When Jesus had shattered death, He left us with the announcement of His conquest over death and the promise of life for all, but He ascended into heaven without having actually set all of Creation free because of the choices, rewards, and punishments that are yet lacking to be made for the systematic redevelopment of all of Creation -- not only before God, but in relation to each molecule in relation to every other molecule.  The New Testament presupposes free will in all that it tells us to do:

"He who would love life
      And see good days,
       Let him refrain his tongue from evil,
      And his lips from speaking deceit.
       11 Let him turn away from evil and do good;
       Let him seek peace and pursue it.
       12 For the eyes of the LORD are on the righteous,
       And His ears are open to their prayers;
      But the face of the LORD is against those who do evil." (1Peter 3:10-12)

These three verses give us something to exercise our free will on, until we've reclaimed our tongues from the fires of Gehenna, according to this passage being compared with James chapter 3.  The tongue can no man tame in the way that one would tame a horse or some other beast of the field.  It takes a progressive yeilding to the Holy Spirit, which, again, involves our free will as far as how quickly we become the most submitted to the Word of Christ.  There can be no just punishment without presupposing freedom of choice to cooperate in playing one's very tiny part in the conformity with the image of Christ process.  The New Testament, through St. Paul, teaches repentance.  This is impossible without the free will to do so.  The Bible teaches not being conformed to this world but being transformed by the renewing of your mind.  This requires free will to keep on and on and on with the New Testament because your mind stays as renewed as your hair stays combed.  There's always all kinds of wind and other intrusional things to challenge the level that you've attained to.  Discipleship to Jesus, which is what all of St. John's writings are about, presupposes following Him step by step which requires as much our free choice as it requires His sustaining/carrying Hand at work.

The problem has been our definitions of free will.  Jesus wouldn't jump off of the pinnacle of the Temple because freedom of choice doesn't involve lunacy.  Jesus wouldn't come down off of the cross to satisfy the Pharisees because freedom of choice doesn't involve telling the will of God for one's life to go to Hell.  Jesus wouldn't show Himself to all of Jerusalem and to the Roman authorities after His resurrection because their free choice to become His disciples didn't involve having their flesh satisfied in all of the particulars of it's demands for sensory proof because the brain could be awed, but there wouldn't be an ounce of faith triggered in their spirits in relation to the Gospel because that would be considering their own bodies in terms of the data that their bodies could accumulate rather than considering only what God had promised.  Free will doesn't involve the satisfaction of emotions.  It involves the ability to do the things that God says that we can/should/will do -- no more and no less.

[Craig]

2. no free will = no choice

There is no choice without freedom of will. If you say we have choice, we have freedom. I use the PRIMARY definition of free-will and not the second definition. Free will is the ability for the will to make a choice.

So would you say it is possible for God (or anyone or anything for that matter) to cause you make a certain choice, while at the same time you still made the choice?

Irrelevant, it doesn't matter how difficult the choice, if you have a choice you have freedom of choice. If you have freedom of choice, that is synonymous of freedom of will. No person is caused to make a certain choice, if they were it was never a choice. If you had a choice between doing something or dying, you still have a choice do something or die. If you die, you still made a choice. You are still inconsistent with your explanation, using fallacy to defend your belief won't make it any more true than the fallacy that is used.

[Taffy]

Yo Willie

Yo Brud, I believe maybe David and Zoe maybe from down the south east of Britian..maybe around the London area....

yeah, Im doing Ok thanks Bud, same old same,,,,but im home.....Likewise, hope you too are recovering as BEST as possible matey....

well that me done on this thread...its just goes around and around..I remember last yrs episode  Bro...about the same...youch!

Go Easy Willie H, as ya mum would say :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

[bobf]

Irrelevant,

I don't see how a question like that can be irrelavant.  Based on your response, I now have a clearer picture of what you believe.

it doesn't matter how difficult the choice, if you have a choice you have freedom. No person is caused to make a certain choice, if they were it was never a choice. If that is the case, then you are inconsistent with your explanation of what a 'choice' is.

Disagree.  My defintion of choice is selection from two are more alternatives using our faculty of thought, reason, will, etc.

Primary Definitions of 'cause' from Merriam Webster
(v) Cause - 1 : to serve as a cause or occasion of
(n) Cause - 1 a: a reason for an action or condition : motive b: something that brings about an effect or a result

Since we give reasons for our choices that are external to our wills those are causes.  Why did you bring an umbrella?  Because it's going to rain.  So what?  I don't like to get wet.  Why?  It doesn't feel good and I might catch a cold.  Why doesn't it feel good?  Dunno, it just doesn't.

[bobf]

A 100% certain yes.  The simple answer is yes nothing is impossible for God.

I agree.

Another answer is best stated as a question to you.

Bob I give you 2 choices. No hard feeling whatever you choose.
a] I give you 2 cents.
b] I torture your whole town including your family to death.

As said no hard feelings from me whatever you choose. So don't be scared of me.
Would you choice really be of free will?

Of course I would choose (A).  What are the causes that are external to myself?

[WhiteWings]

What are the causes that are external to myself?

I'm not 100% sure I understand that question.
That said:

a] laws
b] social pressure.
c] learned behavior. Often based on a and b
d] how you parents raised you. Likely stronly based on a and b
e] Likely some other things

I think I explained my view on the subject pretty wel a few posts back.
Basicly I believe God gave us free will. But there are limitations to that free will.
Remebering an earlier thread on free will I think I'm pretty much in line with Craig.
I'm now thinking about your free will drawing Craig. The drawing with the boxes.

[bobf]

You are still inconsistent with your explanation, using fallacy to defend your belief won't make it any more true than the fallacy that is used.

What explanation or fallacy?  I asked a question.  I did not assert anything!

[willieH]

Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

Not.

Otherwise Willie would use all smilies availble on Internet  :laughing7: :icon_king: :icon_joker: :bgdance: :dsunny: :laugh: :laugh2: :rolllol: :pointlaugh: :this: :LH: :laughhand: :egyptdance: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance:

Sorry I forgot to add you fav icon Mr. WillieH
:hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere: :hithere:

:laughing7:

[willieH]

Hi WiilieH, Thank you for your welcome.

I completely disagree with you. Your reasonings are unsound and unbiblical. I shall reply in detail in my next post.

So say YOU... I look forward to your post...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[bobf]

That said:

a] laws
b] social pressure.
c] learned behavior. Often based on a and b
d] how you parents raised you. Likely stronly based on a and b
e] Likely some other things

Those are the kinds of things I was thinking of.  I was just trying clarify that it's not the giving of two wildly different alternatives that is the cause of me choosing (A) it is my sense of morality which was either inborn or learned.  I'm not in control of what was inborn.  And learning is at least in part due to things external to myself.

I think I explained my view on the subject pretty wel a few posts back.
Basicly I believe God gave us free will. But there are limitations to that free will.
Remebering an earlier thread on free will I think I'm pretty much in line with Craig.
I'm now thinking about your free will drawing Craig. The drawing with the boxes.

But you and Craig gave opposite responses to my question!?

[willieH]

willieH: Hi brother P... :hithere:

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

I have the CHOICE to place that icon in greeting... and am only doing so because it was ordained by YHVH (yes even that trivial detail)... before any of you had eyes to see that little eyesore -- eh?  :laughing7:

CHOICE is not FREE WILL...  :dontknow:

Only GOD's WILL shall be done in ETERNITY bro... wherein is man's "FREE WILL" found there & then?

Let me answer my own question... To do the WILL of GOD (not your own) is a WILL found FREE...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[willieH]

Yo Willie

Yo Brud, I believe maybe David and Zoe maybe from down the south east of Britian..maybe around the London area....

yeah, Im doing Ok thanks Bud, same old same,,,,but im home.....Likewise, hope you too are recovering as BEST as possible matey....

well that me done on this thread...its just goes around and around..I remember last yrs episode  Bro...about the same...youch!

Go Easy Willie H, as ya mum would say :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

ThankYe bro... and the "FREE WILL" merry-go-round makes yet another revolution here at TM!  :laughhand:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

[WhiteWings]

I think I explained my view on the subject pretty wel a few posts back.
Basicly I believe God gave us free will. But there are limitations to that free will.
Remebering an earlier thread on free will I think I'm pretty much in line with Craig.
I'm now thinking about your free will drawing Craig. The drawing with the boxes.

But you and Craig gave opposite responses to my question!?

I pass this one on to Craig. I said my thing and Craig certainly doesn't need me to explain what he means  :laughhand:
I searched the forum for your freewill drawing Craig. Couldn't find it. Perhaps you can repost it? I think it will make things a bit more clear.

[Taffy]

Yo Willie

Yo Brud, I believe maybe David and Zoe maybe from down the south east of Britian..maybe around the London area....

yeah, Im doing Ok thanks Bud, same old same,,,,but im home.....Likewise, hope you too are recovering as BEST as possible matey....

well that me done on this thread...its just goes around and around..I remember last yrs episode  Bro...about the same...youch!

Go Easy Willie H, as ya mum would say :icon_flower: :icon_flower:

:icon_flower:

ThankYe bro... and the "FREE WILL" merry-go-round makes yet another revolution here at TM!  :laughhand:

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

Hey Brud

im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

[WhiteWings]

Those are the kinds of things I was thinking of.  I was just trying clarify that it's not the giving of two wildly different alternatives that is the cause of me choosing (A) it is my sense of morality which was either inborn or learned.  I'm not in control of what was inborn.  And learning is at least in part due to things external to myself.

The red part can be base for an endless discussing.
I can easily learn you some thing. The question is you will accept it? If yes/no why?
My idea that I can't back up in any way is that God/jesus created us with a prewired brain.
We are created in His image. Now I'm not claiming I'm God. Far from that.
But I think we inherited the morality of God.
Just to avoid being shot for that remark; again I'm not claiming to have the same superior morality als Father/Son/HS have.

[WhiteWings]

im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of your Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

[Taffy]

im just dug up me Tin hat from last season..just to many holes in it...got go get anew one... :icon_flower:(http://deephousepage.com/smilies/hidesbehindsofa.gif)

I dug up school pic of your Taffman.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/2a/TinFoilHat002.jpg/800px-TinFoilHat002.jpg

yas certifiable WW,,,,..I got hair, but , never the less, send me one of those hats, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...
:icon_flower:

[WhiteWings]

, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

So the thread leads. Normally. Meaning a choice.
So in fact you say God created threads with free will?

[Nathan]

Which one is Taf?  They look like they could be brothers . . .

[Paul Hazelwood]

willieH: Hi brother P... :hithere:

hI wILLIE,   

Maybe a shorter example to narrow the explanations down to help people understand where your coming from.  Excuse the reference to yourself as just an example.


Are you free or not free to place the waving hat icon in your posts to greet people?

I have the CHOICE to place that icon in greeting... and am only doing so because it was ordained by YHVH (yes even that trivial detail)... before any of you had eyes to see that little eyesore -- eh?  :laughing7:

CHOICE is not FREE WILL...  :dontknow:

Only GOD's WILL shall be done in ETERNITY bro... wherein is man's "FREE WILL" found there & then?

Let me answer my own question... To do the WILL of GOD (not your own) is a WILL found FREE...

peacE...
willieH  :icon_king:

So, just entertaining some thought here.   Lets suppose you must be accountable for posting those eyesores based on it being a sinful act.  :happy3:   If it is ordained by God, what is the manner of your accountability?  

[Taffy]

, been round Tent far to long to see where this thread normally leads...

So the thread leads. Normally. Meaning a choice.
So in fact you say God created threads with free will?

heres my take.....

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

He that is, also sets us in such perimeters, which means ,we can not choose OUTside what hes HAS set In motion...

again, anything which is LIMITED ( check your dictionary) is not FREE...., all choices ,come by cause and effect....we CHoose what we Eat Because we are Hungry, ...we choose our college to how it best suits our purpose,we choose to pick out NOSE because its full of Boggies....

your choice was either to respond to My post or not, but it was mY post which gave you the Option, all of which comes within the Perimeters which HE set from the beginning....

:icon_flower:
...

[Taffy]

Which one is Taf?  They look like they could be brothers . . .

Nat...
check me avatar....Tom selleck pinched me looks...

[Paul Hazelwood]

your a prisoner behind prison walls,..your FREE to do what ever restrictions or perimeters are set around you,..your Choice , therefore restricted to what you can and cant do... so are you REALLY FREE....

Based on that,  do you have the free will to live or not to live a life devoted to God within those boundaries?