First Post

[jabcat]

No scholar here, some questions/suggestions.  1) Was the word used for 'world" a word that meant basically what was considered the Roman Empire?  [also possibly in relation to the flood, the 'world' covered?] 2) wasn't the 'age' of temple worship ended when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD? 3) I've read there are millions that have never heard Jesus' name, and the population of those having not heard is growing much more rapidly than those missionaries are reaching/telling.  Possible?  I believe it's J. Preston Eby that states "God isn't trying to save everyone in this age"  :dontknow:.  God's blessing, James.

[Zeek]

We still await the two final signs before the setting up of Christ's kingdom on this earth i.e. the preaching of the gospel in all of the world (as we are all aware it is only a half-baked gospel which has been preached to date) and the second sign is the sign of Jesus coming in the clouds.  Zoe

...I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, because your faith is being proclaimed throughout the whole world. (Rom. 1:8, NASB throughout unless otherwise noted.)

...surely they have never heard, have they? Indeed they have;"Their voice has gone out into all the earth, And their words to the ends of the world." (Rom. 10:18)

Colossians: "5...the gospel which has come to you, just as in all the world also it is constantly bearing fruit and increasing..." (Col. 1:5b-6).

"...the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven" (Col. 1:23b, KJV).

Hi Zeek, I am David, husband to Zoe. Thank you for pointing out the bible verses which appear to say that the gospel of Jesus Christ has already been preached to the whole world.

God used apostle Paul to preach the true universalist gospel to the world within his reach. However, he did not have the means and the technology to preach the gospel 'to the ends of the world', and the history confirms that the whole world was never evangelised during Apostle Paul's time, or in fact any other time to date in the history of Christianity.

Paul was looking forward to the time when the true and full gospel of Jesus Christ will be preached in all the world as a witness to all the nations as prophesied by Jesus Christ in Matthew 24:14. 

To understand Romans1:8. Romans 1:18, Colossians 1:5 and Colossians 1:23, we need to know that the relevant Greek verbs, kataggello,  exerchmai, en, and kerysso used in these verses can also be used in all three tenses, past, present and future. The bible translators have mistranslated these verses into the past tense when they ought to have used the future tense.

Below I have shown both the wrong and the correct translation of these verses.

Romans 1:8 (KJV) – wrong translation
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith is spoken (kataggello) of throughout the whole world.

Romans 1:8  – correct translation
First, I thank my God through Jesus Christ for you all, that your faith will be spoken (kataggello) of throughout the whole world.


Romans 10:18 (KJV) – wrong translation
But I say, Have they not heard? Yes (menoun) verily, their sound went (exerchmai) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.

Romans 10:18 - correct translation
But I say, Have they not heard? No but (menoun) verily, their sound will go  (exerchmai) into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.


Colossians 1:5 (KJV) – wrong translation
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it is] ( en) in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:

Colossians 1:5  – correct  translation
For the hope which is laid up for you in heaven, whereof ye heard before in the word of the truth of the gospel; Which is come unto you, as [it will be] ( en) in all the world; and bringeth forth fruit, as [it doth] also in you, since the day ye heard [of it], and knew the grace of God in truth:


Colossians 1:23 (KJV) – wrong translation
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which was preached (kerysso) to every creature which is under heaven;

Colossians 1:23 – correct  translation
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and [be] not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, [and] which will be preached (kerysso) to every creature which is under heaven;

Note, KJV and most other bible versions have correctly translated the Greek word kerysso in future tense in Matthew 24:14

Matthew 24:14 (KJV) – correct translation
And this gospel of the kingdom shall be preached (kerysso) in all the world for a witness unto all nations; and then shall the end come.

'Christians' over the centuries have been zealous in their missions to convert people to Christianity and save them from burning hell, but the true universalist gospel of the Kingdom of God has not yet gone out in all the world for a witness unto all nations. This must happen, and will happen before this present age will come to an end at the Second Coming of Jesus Christ.

We now have the technology for the true universalist gospel to be preached to the ends of the world. Zoe and I are passionately committed to help preach the true gospel of the Kingdom of God in fulfillment of Matthew 24:14. This is why we have a website, www.GodsPlanforAll.com and also why we have printed our book, God's Plan for All.

Blessings

David

Hi,

can you quote the source of your translations.  I looked up in the youngs literal and concordant and they don't agree with your "future" translation.  Which translation are you using.  or are you self translating in order to meet your belief??

thanks

[Zeek]

No scholar here, some questions/suggestions.  1) Was the word used for 'world" a word that meant basically what was considered the Roman Empire?  [also possibly in relation to the flood, the 'world' covered?] 2) wasn't the 'age' of temple worship ended when the temple was destroyed in 70 AD? 3) I've read there are millions that have never heard Jesus' name, and the population of those having not heard is growing much more rapidly than those missionaries are reaching/telling.  Possible?  I believe it's J. Preston Eby that states "God isn't trying to save everyone in this age"  :dontknow:.  God's blessing, James.

this might be of interest to you

http://bereanbiblechurch.org/transcripts/eschatology/gosp_preach_world.htm

and the articles here on eschatology

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/studyIndex.php

[Zeek]

I understand your passion and belief, but imo; you are trying to fulfill a fulfilled promise.

I agree more with Nathan, that Mathew 24 has been fulfilled literally and the destruction of the temple in AD 70 was the outward sign that God is no longer dealing with peoples from an outward view/old covenant system;

and that scripture still has an inward spiritual application as we grow into a greater knowledge of our fulfilled status.

God bless

I disagree. If Matthew 24:14 has already been fulfilled, then this present Age was ended, and Jesus Christ has already been returned. Of course, neither of this is true. Zeek, you have not provided any historical evidence or biblical support to prove your point of view.

I encourage you to read these articles on eschatology, they go verse by verse through Matthew 24, if you are interested.

http://www.bereanbiblechurch.org/studyIndex.php  and provide historical evidence and biblical support to the fulfilled view

[reFORMer]

Sometimes details can be misleading.  I know I like theological...arguments up to a point.  I just feel we should be more welcoming, specially to newcomers, as I know so many here have soft and comfy embraces and large warm hearts...

I really hope David and Zoe will enjoy coming here, as well as be edified.

your brother, James Rohde

[jabcat]

Welcome David and Zoe.  As the body, we can all learn something from interacting with each other.  Even if it's patience.  :laughing7:  I like the passage (usually not able to put it into action) "in love, preferring one another".  As one of our members says here, "God veils and reveals"...and it's all according to His purpose.  Welcome again!  God's blessing, James.

[davidsulem]

and yes I do think Jesus returned in judgment and the age ended, the end of the old covenant. but in a spiritual sense, I believe there is an ongoing "internal" awakening.

Zeek, It appears that you  believe in a form of Preterism. Personally, I do not see any support in the Bible and from life experience that Jesus Christ has already returned to this earth, and that this present evil age has already ended. However, it is not my intention to debate this subject any further. So we shall have to agree to disagree.

For me the most glorious prophesied future event in the Bible is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to this earth, and the start of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Can anybody please inform me if the belief in Preterism is very common in the Universalist circles?  Thank you.

[davidsulem]

Welcome David and Zoe.  As the body, we can all learn something from interacting with each other.  Even if it's patience.  :laughing7:  I like the passage (usually not able to put it into action) "in love, preferring one another".  As one of our members says here, "God veils and reveals"...and it's all according to His purpose.  Welcome again!  God's blessing, James.

Thank you, James for the welcome. Yes, it is all according to His greater purpose.

Blessings.

[Zeek]

and yes I do think Jesus returned in judgment and the age ended, the end of the old covenant. but in a spiritual sense, I believe there is an ongoing "internal" awakening.

Zeek, It appears that you  believe in a form of Preterism. Personally, I do not see any support in the Bible and from life experience that Jesus Christ has already returned to this earth, and that this present evil age has already ended. However, it is not my intention to debate this subject any further. So we shall have to agree to disagree.

For me the most glorious prophesied future event in the Bible is the Second Coming of Jesus Christ to this earth, and the start of the Millennial Kingdom of Jesus Christ.

Can anybody please inform me if the belief in Preterism is very common in the Universalist circles?  Thank you.

hi dave,

I only believe in "preterism" in the literal since.  Meaning, literally the outworking of the first fruits saints occurred.  And prophecy was fulfilled outwardly. 

But I don't believe because of that there is no hope.  I believe LIFE is a journey, and that God through Christ is INWARDLY fulfilling prophecy, just no longer outwardly.  The kindgom of God is joy, peace and righteousness; As Christ workds inwardly, the kingdom of God is awakened within me. 

Blessings.

[rosered]

 
  Hi Zeek , I believe also in the same
   seeing it as an individual   act/ work of God , the Holy Spirit  , being God  Christ  Spirit  working within one
  that is why  Jesus told us know one knows the time  not the angels but the Father in Heaven only , because   He draws us  to Himself / Christ annoited seed  to grow within us 
God love ya ..

[Nathan]

This is something I'm also learning on these forums.  When people question what you've just poured your heart out about, it's kind of unnerving and I must admit, a little disheartening.  For me, we are not to go into battle against one another, but often times, that's what our differences can lead to.  But instead, we're to be the planters of seeds of life and with that comes the wisdom of seasons.  Right now, farmers would consider me as crazy if I hopped up on the tractor and headed out to the fields with a planter rather than a combine.  Everyone knows this is the harvest season, the earth is getting ready for the coming of winter.  (In the U.S. by the way)  And as such, the ground becomes to hard to dig or plant.

Spiritually, people are the same way.  We have seasons in which certain things can be planted and if it's out of season, the planting process can be downright impossible, not to mention impractical.  Our humility is what softens our earth to receive the seed from each other.  And if the recipient is not choosing to receive the seed, to attempt to force it on them would be spiritual rape . .and there's enough of that going around in the churches already that we can hopefully avoid it here.

For me, I share what I see and let the Spirit take it from there. 

I believe we are to walk in the spirit . . .which includes the interpreting of Scripture.  And this is why I pursue the spiritual implications over the literal interpretations of it all.  And as a result, I can see that things like the second coming of Christ have a completely different meaning spiritually than literally, and the millennial reign, the bottomless pit, hell, lake of fire, great tribulation, the two witnesses . . .all of it has a completely different meaning spiritually than it does naturally.

I share what I see the spiritual piece is, if it's not your season to receive this, that's absolutely fine.  To see it literally for me is not wrong because I do believe there is a literal interpretation to it all.  I personally just don't see it as relavent or a priority because we're not called to walk by way of reason or logic, but by the spirit.  I believe there's just so much more benefit to my spirit than understanding according to my flesh.  And seeing things spiritually only can happen through the Revelation of the Father . .  . not through teaching or tradtions.

No condemnation here.  Just a difference of perspective, which is what you'll find in most forums.  Everyone has a difference of opinion.  For me, it's not about being in agreement with a doctrine, but it's about laying our differences down and becoming one in Christ.

In short,
bottomless pit = my mind
satan = my mind
devil = my mind
lucifer = first Adam
1000 year reign = dimension of Rest (holy of holies 10x10x10)
lake of fire = God
Adam = my spirit
Eve = my mind
serpent = my ego
Tree of life = Christ
Tree of knowledge of good and evil = soul of man
Stone not left on top of another = animal sacrifice/ Old covenant system
angel = messenger, message
cloud = saints (in some cases) judgment (in others)
rapture = spiritual quickening
hair = my thoughts
locusts = carnal thoughts
mark of the beast = carnal mind
antiChrist = carnal mind
false prophet = religious mind
70 weeks of Daniel = ministry targeting Jews, ending at the stoning of Stephen
Daniel's prophecy, Jesus prophecy of Matthew 24, Revelation = the removal of Israel's identity in the Old Covenant to make way for Christ to establish the new covenant in the hearts of men.

That ought to take some chewing . . .it's just stuff off the top of my head.  I believe the Bible over all is about two men and God.  The first Adam that fell, the last Adam that redeemed the first and offerred resurrection, and the Father who sent the last Adam to redeem the first back to him.  This is a simple story that repeats itself over and over and over and every time it does, it's in a different form, but it's always the same story. God redeeming man back to him through Christ.  Revelation is simply the culmination of that.

24-26A man named Apollos came to Ephesus. He was a Jew, born in Alexandria, Egypt, and a terrific speaker, eloquent and powerful in his preaching of the Scriptures. He was well-educated in the way of the Master and fiery in his enthusiasm. Apollos was accurate in everything he taught about Jesus up to a point, but he only went as far as the baptism of John. He preached with power in the meeting place. When Priscilla and Aquila heard him, they took him aside and told him the rest of the story.

It's what we try to do, we all think that we have "a better way" and in our attempt to lead you to it, we find ourselves forcing something that should be flowing out of us on it's own.  Christ is life, and that should always be the affect we have on those we share with.  If it's anything else, it's out of the power of man, not God.  We see in Scripture where pruning takes place and we assume that's our role as well.  But it's not I that is sharper than any two-edged sword, but it is the spirit that does that kind of work.  I just plant.  I'll let the spirit do the pruning in you. 

Bottom line, "know" the literal Word, "Apply" the moral principle of it, but always and forever, "pursue" the spirital Truth that lies beneath.

[rosered]

  Hi Nate ,
  you very well know it is time to plant wheat brother  :winkgrin:  here in Indiana  anywhoo :girlheart:

[HappyBoy!]

Nice post Nate.  I'm somewhat of an agnostic in this area.  I just simply can't see the big picture enough to formulate a solid view.  I very much appreciate the different perspectives presented.

For example, for years as an ET believer all I saw the Rich Man and Lazarus as was a depiction of hell.  Now I see it very differently.  Years ago I would not have received a different view, but I do now.  I also have less of a need for others to see everything my way.  That's why I appreciate the differing perspectives here.

Zoe and David, just in case you don't know it, you are quite welcome here :welcome:   I've downloaded your web page to my PDA so I can read it on the go.....if ever i get done with the Lake of Fire series from L. Ray Smith  :laughing7:  Thanks very much for your effort on your book and for making us aware of it. :thumbsup:

[jabcat]

This is something I'm also learning on these forums.  When people question what you've just poured your heart out about, it's kind of unnerving and I must admit, a little disheartening.  For me, we are not to go into battle against one another, but often times, that's what our differences can lead to.  But instead, we're to be the planters of seeds of life and with that comes the wisdom of seasons. 

Nathan, I like all your post, however, for me, this piece of your post is our goal of unity as believers...differences, different understandings, but to seek unity of and in the Spirit...again, in love, preferring one another....lousy at it personally, but a worthy goal.  God's blessings, James.

[jabcat]

Can anybody please inform me if the belief in Preterism is very common in the Universalist circles?  Thank you.

Like most anything else in faith circles, it pretty much runs the gamut...one says potato, one says pototo...that's why I agree with your view of debating only to a point.  I don't see any of this discussion as anyone being outright deceitful, just differences in understandings and different levels of veiling/revealing.  We'll all get there, in God's timing and will...God's blessing, James.

[rosered]

Can anybody please inform me if the belief in Preterism is very common in the Universalist circles?  Thank you.

Like most anything else in faith circles, it pretty much runs the gamut...one says potato, one says pototo...that's why I agree with your view of debating only to a point.  I don't see any of this discussion as anyone being outright deceitful, just differences in understandings and different levels of veiling/revealing.  We'll all get there, in God's timing and will...God's blessing, James.

  You  said a mouth full there James  :thumbsup: isn't  that the truth  :cloud9:

[martincisneros]

Can anybody please inform me if the belief in Preterism is very common in the Universalist circles?  Thank you.

You can probably divided it up this way:

25% Dispensational Premillenialists
25% Amillenialists
25% Postmillenialists
25% Have absolutely no idea when it comes to the prophecies, inspite of paying attention to everybody on the subject but the Scriptures simply not yet saying anything related to either Pre or Post millenialism.

(Amillenialism shares with Premillenialism the belief in continual wars between light and darkness until the end without either side ever really getting the upper hand.  Premillenialism makes up for believing in the temporary overcoming of darkness with light with the start of the millenium by saying that there's a large apostacy at the end of the millenium, so that essentially Amillenialism and Premillenialism share the same pessimistic natures, even if Premillenialism reworks the books temporarily to try to show some progress being made.  Amillenialists tend to beleive that the figurative millenium of the book of Revelation stands for the time period between the first and second coming.  Postmillenialism would share with Premillenialism a belief in a future millenium, but would dispute over when Christ returns by saying that it's after the millenium.  Amillenialism is the fatalism of St. Augustine and of much of the Catholic Church throughout history.  Postmillenialism envisions really overcoming darkness through the preached Word and the outpouring of the Holy Spirit during the Golden Age thousand year period of the Church when the Church disciples the nations rather than waiting for Jesus to return to do what He told us to do, which is the plight of Premillenialism.  If He has to come back to do what He told us to do in discipling the nations, doesn't that place all of us in the category of the guy who buried the talent and gained neither profit nor interest for his Master??)

And then between the Premillenialists, Amillenialists, and the Postmillenialists in Christian Universalist circles you'll have maybe 50% of those groups that'll admit that some of the New Testament prophecies have been either totally fulfilled or partially fulfilled, such as Jesus having come in judgment to 70AD as Father is spoken of as having come in judgment many times in the Old Testament.  If not a specific belief in that particular point then on other particulars that Premillenial futurists too readily say haven't happened yet without checking their history more carefully.  There are a few in Christian Universalist circles that believe in full preterism, as you'd have in Thomas Whittemore's "Plain Guide To Universalism" with even the Lake of Fire having occured in 70AD, etc.  There's a certain level on which that makes sense to me, but I believe in ongoing prophetic fulfillments as we move from shadows to substance.

One thing you have to be careful in any tendencies to get the fly swatter out, in love, over this is that not all who hold to a partial form of preterism discount ongoing fulfillments of prophecy and a literal, bodily return of Jesus Christ.  As within the Eternal Torment camp there's all of these degrees of that from those that believe you chose your Hell to those that believe that God chose it for some people, and then those that believe in either spiritual or allegorical fire and those that believe it'll be an actual volcano -- you've basically got the same thing with those who hold to varying degrees of preterism to where some people would fight you tooth and nail over Matthew 24 having already taken place, while you might be taken back with some of those same people still believing in the second coming, a millenium of sorts, etc.  Very few consistent preterists post at these boards with real regularity, chosing to haunt the preterist forums where more people will have an idea of what they're talking about and also to spread UR into those circles where UR is either not really dwelt upon or maybe in the back of some people's minds "eternal destinies" are still up for grabs even if 99% of prophecy is fulfilled.

I was a dispensational premillenialist until the Holy Spirit started correcting me through my own preaching in 2006.  And then last year in 2007 I spent most of the year in the book of Revelation with the better translations, like the Concordant, Rotherham's, and Scarlett's.  For me, the 2nd Coming (which isn't a Scriptural term, though I'll use it for clarity), happens either with the start of Revelation 21 or the last few verses of Revelation 20.  In other words, Postmillenialism is what I believe that I've personally been corrected by the Lord with.  There's a new "95 thesis" online that someone put out there that's their attempt at a refutation of Dispensationalism.  I personally believe that I could re-write it with a much tighter case than they present because of my own studies over the last couple of years.  But an honest reading of it will make some aspects of dispensationalism at least problematic, even if someone doesn't find it conclusive; it at least exposes the inconsistencies:

http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml

[davidsulem]

You can probably divided it up this way:

25% Dispensational Premillenialists
25% Amillenialists
25% Postmillenialists
25% Have absolutely no idea when it comes to the prophecies, inspite of paying attention to everybody on the subject but the Scriptures simply not yet saying anything related to either Pre or Post millenialism.

Thank you, Martin for this very helpful information.  I am also interested to know, if there is any article written by Gary Amirault, which describes his position and leaning with regard to Premillenialism, Amillenialism, and Postmillenialism. 

Blessings

[Zeek]

You can probably divided it up this way:

25% Dispensational Premillenialists
25% Amillenialists
25% Postmillenialists
25% Have absolutely no idea when it comes to the prophecies, inspite of paying attention to everybody on the subject but the Scriptures simply not yet saying anything related to either Pre or Post millenialism.

Thank you, Martin for this very helpful information.  I am also interested to know, if there is any article written by Gary Amirault, which describes his position and leaning with regard to Premillenialism, Amillenialism, and Postmillenialism. 

Blessings

I don't know if there is any article written by Gary re: this, but I believe he approaches scripture from a parital preterist standpoint. 

Here is an exchange between Gary and another "teacher" out there re: UR

http://www.iswasandwillbe.com/youasked_preterism01.php#preterism_or_is_was_will_be

[WhiteWings]

Zeek,

Great article!
It the bathing time of the year right now. I'm printing it as I write this message and read it while drowning in a muddy bathtub  :laughing7:

[Zeek]

You can probably divided it up this way:

25% Dispensational Premillenialists
25% Amillenialists
25% Postmillenialists
25% Have absolutely no idea when it comes to the prophecies, inspite of paying attention to everybody on the subject but the Scriptures simply not yet saying anything related to either Pre or Post millenialism.

Thank you, Martin for this very helpful information.  I am also interested to know, if there is any article written by Gary Amirault, which describes his position and leaning with regard to Premillenialism, Amillenialism, and Postmillenialism. 

Blessings

Here are a few articles i found on tentmaker. 


http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Fulfilled_Prophecy/index.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/destruction-of-jerusalem.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/parousia_apocalypse_russell.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/contemporary_revelation_chilton.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/signs-of-end-times.htm


and still more if you do a search on fulfilled prophecy

[Nathan]

These are some awesome attachments!  I've read the one on the six signs in it's entirety . . .I especially found the reference to the light that shown for a half hour as it is specifically mentioned in Revelation as well.  Very profound stuff.

[Woodchuck1111]

Hi Everybody!

I hope you can all read this. I have just joined the tentmaker discussion forum and I believe in the wonderful glorious truth of biblical universal salvation through the shed blood of Jesus Christ on the cross. It is my passion to evangelise the world with this full good news which needs to be accomplished before the second coming of Jesus Christ. I live in the United Kingdom.

Regards to all

Zoe

Hi Zoe!

Your post here is very old so I hope you get this. Your book "God's Plan For All" is amazing! It answers every question I've had on ultimate Reconciliation of all, free will, Israel's role in the Millennium, God's taking responsibility for evil, etc, etc. Thanks for writing that book!

Btw, I was in the Worldwide Church of God years ago. Even graduated from Ambassador College in Big Sandy, Tx in 1972. Have you had any connection with them?

Take care!

Ken

[chester-blowfold]

Did Zoe and David leave tentmaker?

[jabcat]

yes, i corresponded with them and he was gracious, but said they were busy working on their own project(s).