Sorry didn't know where to put this question.
Anyone know what they tell us about the ear when Jesus was born?
I've seen on youtube people using the DSS as proof in their type of Christian belief (ET), any truth in this?
I don't know much about this.. but is DSS some sort of problem solving program? :dontknow: But with a program doesn't much of it depend upon the information the person feeds into the program? Which I would think would greatly influence the outcome? : :dontknow:
I read some things a few years back concerning the year Jesus was born but I don't remember what or where they were.. it seems like many believe His actual year of birth is what we currently call 6 B.C? I remember some articles on planet conjunctions that some thought might be the large star the 'wise men' from the east followed.
I know in Acts 5, when the Pharisees arrested the apostles, and were debating what to do about them, one said, "in the days of the census one named judas the galilean led a revolt.. but he died and it led to nothing.." - I've wondered if that's the same census as the one Joseph and Mary went to Bethlehem for.. and if it can be pinpointed in historical references, along with this guy Judas the Galillean..?
Luke 1:5 says "in the time of Herod the king" which we know was Herod the Great "there was a priest Zechariah of the priestly division of Abidjah.." but I'm pretty sure that division, etc, can't be traced.. tho of course years of Herod can.. who died before Joseph would come back into judea, and then because his son ruled after Herod the great died, Joseph returned but turned aside to Nazareth of Galilee when he heard that.. so although history likely tells us what year Herod the great died, and his son took his place.. we don't know how old Jesus was.. all we know is when Herod had the boy children of Bethlehem killed, it was every one 2 and under "according to the time he had inquired of the wise men" - but whether Jesus was actually 2 at that time.. But can that "slaughter of the innocents" be pinpointed as to year?
And the census, Luke 2:1 says was a decree that all the world (Roman world) should be registered, which census "first took place when Quirinius was governing Syria" verse 2.
So.. the census went forth when Herod the Great was king of Judea.. and Quirinius was governor of Syria.. then about 2 years later Herod the Great slaughtered the babes of bethlehem.. then some time (?) later Herod the Great died and his son Archelaus ruled Judea.. (Matthew 2:15-22)
I found this line "The slaying, shortly before his death, of the infants of Bethlehem was wholly consistent with the disarray into which he had fallen." here - https://www.britannica.com/biography/Herod-king-of-Judaea -quite the story of his life.. :faint: and which article says he died in 4 B.C.
Google seems to show there's quite the controversy over all these years and dates..
:dontknow:
But the "Jewish Encyclopedia" - http://www.jewishencyclopedia.com/articles/9032-judas-the-galilean - dates Quirinius becoming governor of Syria in 6 or 7 A.D. (CE) - which is quite different from 6 B.C.! And do they count a year 0? I don't think so.. All very confusing.. :laughing7: oh dear..
And of course some (scoffer's?) think the slaughter of the babes is only legend. :doh:
Only thing.. born the year of the census.. Herod died likely 4 B.C.. so Jesus born somewhere around 6 or 7 B.C. (BCE)..?
..some interesting things here - https://bible.org/article/josephus%E2%80%99-writings-and-their-relation-new-testament - on what historian Josephus had to say about some of these things..
I'm quite sure there is noting in the DSS that states His birthday. At least not in the released part of it. Somehow it's kept under close guard. So close it almost looks like a conspiracy.
My personal guess is, when reading between the lines, is that it has information that confronts the doctrine of those who have the scrolls (RCC)
As for the dating of His birth. Roman history seems so well documented with accurate dates etc. But in reality all is linked together. if one date is wrong many others are. His birth for example is closely linked to the death of Herod. 4BC. But Herod's death is linked to some kind of eclips. On that tradition is built. But there are also theories that Herod died 1BC because around that time there was an eclipse that fits writings and burial rites for kings much better.
That would set His birth date around 3BC
Quirinius is another disputed fact. The dates on itself are likely correct, but it's disputed what kind of census it was. Just a regular count or was it because Augustus got the title Pater Patriae (Father of the nation)
Beware of force fitting things.
Jesus died on a Friday. A fact. Well not really because some believe He died on a Thursday or Wednesday. The way that works is this. It's *about* known when He died. So people look on a calendar locate a full moon (or new moon in case of a fringe group). That moon has to fall on the day the doctrine states He died. Combine that with the view on His actual age. Was it 33 years with 3.5 year ministry? Or 31 years with a one year ministry. Something else? Then start counting back to determine His year of birth. So one date is set by the other date. Two dates don't confirm each other.
But His year of birth is also partly determined by the month He was born in. Was it really during Christmas or was it more like in fall as Jewish New Year?
One last thing.... :-)
Among all doubts and speculations it's a fact that during Jesus time Jews just numbered their week days. Monday, Tuesday, etc is Roman thing. At that time Saturday was the first day on the Roman 8-day calendar. The 7-day calendar with Sunday as a starting point came with the Roman switch to Mithraism.
Ok I lied... another last thing.
The Jewish calendar back then wasn't the same as it's now.
The only thing that's clearly stated in the Bible is that His tomb was discovered empty was on the first day of the Jewish* week. That could by pure accident be Sunday but just as well any other of the 8 days.
For me personally another fact is that He was crucified on the sixth day of the Jewish* week.
That as well could be purely accidentally be Friday on the Roman calendar. But both Friday and Sunday are impossible.
*= The Jewish week was the as Pharisees kept it. This is getting way off-topic but quite likely there were two calendars. One as used in the Southern Kingdom (corrupted by Babylonian influence) and the Northern calendar, sometimes called the pre-exilic calendar. Jesus lived in the Northern kingdom and was crucified in the Southern kingdom. Those calendars were not entirely in sync. A glimpse of that may be seen when reading about the days surrounding Last Supper. Why does John give a different day than the other 3? Error or calendar? :-)
The calendar confusion (then) is worse than I've thought!
..then there's also, I believe, the mix up on the use of the word "sabbath".. In spring holy week alone, day of unleavened bread, always following immediately after day of Passover, no matter what day of the week, could be called Sabbath. Thus Jesus could be executed on Passover which was also a Preparation Day for Unleavened Bread day.. Making it sound to someone outside the system like Jesus died as weekly "sabbath" was beginning, which of course is friday. (?)
"..took down His body, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb ..where no one had ever lain before. 54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near." - Luke 23:53,54.
It amazes me that anyone could ever be bored with the Word of God what with dusty scrolls, mysterious calendars, etc.. etc.. (Just trying to tie in the Dead Sea Scrolls because in my enthusiasm for calendar matters, i've completely forgotten what this thread is about.)
:Chinscratch: we went from date of birth to day of death.. So related after all!
..namely confusion? so I don't know how anyone could take a firm stand on a doctrine using dates..?
:Chinscratch: Very interesting!
Oh! "DSS" - dead sea scrolls! :laugh:
Quote from: marie glen on December 07, 2016, 09:24:11 PM
The calendar confusion (then) is worse than I've thought!
..then there's also, I believe, the mix up on the use of the word "sabbath".. In spring holy week alone, day of unleavened bread, always following immediately after day of Passover, no matter what day of the week, could be called Sabbath. Thus Jesus could be executed on Passover which was also a Preparation Day for Unleavened Bread day.. Making it sound to someone outside the system like Jesus died as weekly "sabbath" was beginning, which of course is friday. (?)
I'm not top of the hill Greek scholar :winkgrin: but also with that word I have a feeling of force fitting things. Because the weekly Sabbath conflicts a certain doctrines it must be explained away. My view is that always, without any exception, every year, the day Jesus died on was the sixth day of the Jewish week. Please note I'm not saying Jesus died several times. Just once.
The unleavened bread thing is a similar problem. Imo on the original calendar that was always, without exception, on the same date. But if people start messing with the calendar then many complications creep in.
Quote"..took down His body, wrapped it in linen, and laid it in a tomb ..where no one had ever lain before. 54 That day was the Preparation, and the Sabbath drew near." - Luke 23:53,54.
That doesn't convince many because 'what is near'? Personally I'm 100% convinced the day starts at sunrise/twilight on the real calendar. So for me drawing near is next sunrise. Others believe drawing near was before sunset because they believe in a sunset-sunset day. To lazy to look it up now but I'm quite sure the Bible states it was already dark when Joseph finished his work.
QuoteIt amazes me that anyone could ever be bored with the Word of God what with dusty scrolls, mysterious calendars, etc.. etc.. (Just trying to tie in the Dead Sea Scrolls because in my enthusiasm for calendar matters, i've completely forgotten what this thread is about.)
I;m never bored with it but it gives me a headache sometimes. I don't like being stuck for months or even a year on a single tiny detail.
Anyway, I'm far from figuring out all aspects of the God's calendar but I made some progress. If you are interested in reading
a lot more click the link in my signature and then "God's calendar".
One kind warning: Be prepared that about everything you (think) know about the calendar will be challenged. Start of the day, start of the month, start of the year. Duration of Pentecost is
not 50 days but 101-103 days. Duration of a Sabbath day. The most troubling is that it's backed up by many verses :banana:
Thanks, I'll check it out! So many details and also theories.. it will be so very interesting to find out which ones - concerning all things - are the most accurate! I do surely look forward to that. Yet the most important things are thankfully much more clear.
Many folks in Christendom, I think, still are unaware of how the Hebrew days begin at sunset. Which keeps some of all that very fuzzy. I absolutely agree that by time Jesus was put in the grave it was after dark.. which of course reminds me of His saying He would be in the grave 3 nights and 3 days, and is why I noticed it was after dark by time He was in the grave. (I was counting back from when it's figured He Rose.) Of course, ultimately what day He was born, died, rose, etc, isnt what's important, even if the study of them can be so interesting!
:gsmile:
It's not and it is important at the same time.
Let's explain this with a neutral example.
Say you want to figure out what color sandals Jesus was wearing.
Not a really a topic related to salvation.
But if you embark on a study like that you are forced to examine many verses from many angles.
And THAT is of more importance than the sandal color.
And so it is figuring out His birthday. Of little, no, importance to salvation on itself. More importantly if you want to figure out prophesies. And when doing that study you will learn a lot about God's Feasts.
While His birthday is of less importance the feast and prophesies are important. The reason I think that simply is that God used many verse to talk about it. God isn't just chit chatting in the Bible. He's trying to get a point across He thinks is important. Then we have no other possibility to find it important too :-)
I was looking more for proof the DSS backed up the bible.
Like I said not much of it is released to the public.
If it backs up the Bible depends on the doctrine of reader.
None of the DSS is Bible* but mainly commentary.
*=IIRC some verses are quoted and not always the same as we have it in our Bible. Then the debate starts. Who's wrong? The person quoting or 'our' translators.
Besides all that it does give some insights on how to understand the Bible. It's all long ago when I read it but Damascus likely isn't in Syria but a nickname for an Essene community in Israel.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2016, 05:05:53 PM
Like I said not much of it is released to the public.
If it backs up the Bible depends on the doctrine of reader.
None of the DSS is Bible* but mainly commentary.
*=IIRC some verses are quoted and not always the same as we have it in our Bible. Then the debate starts. Who's wrong? The person quoting or 'our' translators.
Besides all that it does give some insights on how to understand the Bible. It's all long ago when I read it but Damascus likely isn't in Syria but a nickname for an Essene community in Israel.
I thought several OT books such as Isaiah were among the Dead Sea Scrolls... :Chinscratch:
True. But a copy doesn't really confirm validity of the Bible.
http://dss.collections.imj.org.il/isaiah
https://www.ao.net/~fmoeller/qumdir.htm
QuoteThe version of the text is generally in agreement with the Masoretic or traditional version codified in medieval codices, such as the Aleppo Codex, but it contains many variant readings, alternative spellings, scribal errors, and corrections.
So, there are differences with 'our' source manuscripts. Which is right and which is wrong? That's my whole point. If it contains something not agreeing with current doctrine it's called a scribal error.
But you are right, I was wrong stating there was almost nothing besides a few quotes. Somehow I only had those very damaged fragments in mind.
Nice read about the DDS: https://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=the+dead+sea+scroll+deception
I just found this page. I'm not sure it's the complete book.
http://www.bibliotecapleyades.net/scrolls_deadsea/deadsea_scrollsdeception/scrollsdeception.htm
Don't expect to find anything about doctrine in that book. It's all about smoke and mirrors and refusing to release the DDS. That in itself for me is proof parts of it are a huge problem for certain doctrines.
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2016, 08:51:00 AM
God isn't just chit chatting in the Bible. He's trying to get a point across He thinks is important. Then we have no other possibility to find it important too :-)
:thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2016, 08:51:00 AM
It's not and it is important at the same time.
Let's explain this with a neutral example.
Say you want to figure out what color sandals Jesus was wearing.
Not a really a topic related to salvation.
But if you embark on a study like that you are forced to examine many verses from many angles.
And THAT is of more importance than the sandal color.
And so it is figuring out His birthday. Of little, no, importance to salvation on itself. More importantly if you want to figure out prophesies. And when doing that study you will learn a lot about God's Feasts.
While His birthday is of less importance the feast and prophesies are important. The reason I think that simply is that God used many verse to talk about it. God isn't just chit chatting in the Bible. He's trying to get a point across He thinks is important. Then we have no other possibility to find it important too :-)
Couldn't help but reply to this one .... the journey/path/process He sets us in is more important than a destination, the reason for that is because if you think you have reached a destination ..... doctrine is born .... thereby limiting yourself ..... (just another brick in the wall)
God is infinite, therefore the journey never ends .... it is the same truth as an ever expanding garden ..... to be brought into the process of growing/expanding is the destination
Quote from: WhiteWings on December 08, 2016, 10:50:30 PMDon't expect to find anything about doctrine in that book. It's all about smoke and mirrors and refusing to release the DDS. That in itself for me is proof parts of it are a huge problem for certain doctrines.
Orthodoxy is a tough nut to crack... :2c:
I think this is why it's the Holy Spirit which guides us "into all truth".. if that's what we're searching, seeking, yearning... praying for. :smile:
About the dates/Feasts - https://gospel-truth4all.blogspot.com/2016/01/his-great-plan-of-salvation.html - (2nd image)
And, lately I've been thinking, surely(??) He was born on the sabbath, what with, His being the Sabbath, according to Hebrews 4..
I think all details are important, but not always best(?) to pursue in conversation when there's disagreement as to those secondary details.
:Peace2:
I'd like to say that logic can reveal if a doctrine stands up or holds water.. But that could be some dangerous ground! (Once a group or doctrine, leaves the Bible as its source, it's doomed to fail. Not ultimately, if it's a TRUE doctrine, of course!)
Like the whole hell myth/blasphemy.. Why is it allowed? and then allowed to stay? Only God knows.. perhaps it's to weed out forever such a sentiment.. And some things we have to repent and feel remorse for..
Using logic - I ab-so-lute-ly LOVE logic. Second only to His Word. A verse I confess I use more logic than the Word for (perhaps) is the line about "it's shameful for a woman to speak in the church" - taking into account other verses.. and logic, this to me should read "it's a disgrace for a woman to chat in church" (NIV?). Logic tells me if it's a disgrace for a woman to speak in the group of believers, then there should be no knowledge in their heads. This is the only verse for an example - other than 'hell' - and i'm not sure which one is worse :laughing7: - I could think of at the moment. But employing logic can be such a fine line because "the heart is deceitful above all things.." - Before you know it millions would be contradicting God's Word outright.. Talk about confusion.. Then we'd have to have revered leaders as the source and ruler of what's true. :eek: (God helps us! Always spare us from thAt! :laughing7: )
Thank God, the truth is what it is regardless of our opinion of it. We can seek truth, but we dont make truth. We can share it but we cant own it. And it will always be more about who we are then what we know.
Quote from: marie glen on December 09, 2016, 01:34:13 PM
And, lately I've been thinking, surely(??) He was born on the sabbath, what with, His being the Sabbath, according to Hebrews 4..
Sorry I have to disagree MG...
Years ago I did a little study. Like always lots of it can be refuted by picking word definitions etc.
I did that study while I still believed the present day Jewish calendar is right. I believe otherwise now but it has no real impact. Or perhaps it does in a positive way...
I'll limit myself to the first 3 events.
a] Jesus was conceived during the Festival of Lights.
The feast of rededicating the Temple.
It's often said pregnancy lasts 9 months. That's not exactly right. There is a little variation due to when the ovulation took place before the 'knowing each other'.
Depends on the counting method as mentioned but a 'perfect' pregnancy takes 40 weeks. 40x7=280 days. Months of 30.5 days on average is 9.2 months.
Anyone spotted those nice numbers 40 and 7? :winkgrin:
I'm aware this is very tricky ground and those with a medical background will have their blood boiling by now. I'll push this a little further. Festival of Lights is a multiple day feast which is about lighting an extra candle each day. A 9 branched Menorah that has a center candle like the offical 7 branched Menorah which stood in the Temple.
Any I feel there is strong connection to the middle candle. 'Shamash' or servant candle. Candles aren't just lot with a match, the are lit by the servant candle. Let's call it the Jesus candle. The light of the world.
b] He was born on Rosh Hashanah.
Currently it's just the start of the year but there are views it originally was a creation feast when the angels shouted with joy.
Jesus was a new creation in when being a bit flexible with word meanings He started a new year for mankind.
This day never is 'Saturday'
There is a view Rosh Hashanah took 2 days. If He would be born on the second day He would be presented in the Temple on the first day of the week. Most likely during day time. The evening of that same day starts Atonement day. Yep. I'm aware it doesn't fit 100%. I don't know why right now. I do know that I had similar problems before and that deeper understanding solved it.
c] He was circumcised on the 8th day when presented in the Temple.
IIRC it's also when He officially got His name.
That day always falls on 'Saturday'.
Like I started this post, everyone will be able to show me a lot of stuff proving me wrong. But the beauty of the above is that only at those dates the events fall on special dates. People who think feasts revolve around Him will see the beauty of it. Beauty that keeps going on to baptism, start of His ministry, His death and resurrection.
and here is a very simple explanation .... on day one .... God said "Let there be light" ..... the light was manifested on day one
just my :2c:
Quote from: jugghead on December 13, 2016, 03:49:30 AM
and here is a very simple explanation .... on day one .... God said "Let there be light" ..... the light was manifested on day one
just my :2c:
It's not that simple.
On which of the two first days in the creation account God said "Let there be light" ?
Just read very closely and you will see the creation account has two days 1, two days 2, etc.
Nope that doesn't add up to a total of 14 days..... :winkgrin:
Genesis 1:3-5 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
3 and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.
4 And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,
5 and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.
you say there's another verse saying differently?
..His being born on a Sabbath was merely a passing thought.. mostly as concerning days I'm interested in the Autumn holy days being fulfilled by His long 2nd advent like the Spring ones were by His first advent, He being the Passover lamb.. the unleavened bread (of life).. and the Firstfruits unto God, 1 Corinthians 15:20,23.
But since He died during the Spring Holy Days, it seems to me that His birth involving the Fall Holy Days, doesn't seem unreasonable.
The reason the holy days, both Spring and Fall interest me is I feel they 'prove' UR!
As it makes the 3 peaks of the 2nd advent - 'last' days and His return, Trumpets - 10 days/1000 yrs later -Great White Throne Judgment 'Day', Day of Atonement a collective day of repentance and reconciliation - and then 5 days/500 yrs? later Tabernacles, Revelation 21:3 - " and I heard a great voice out of the heaven, saying, `Lo, the tabernacle of God [is] with men, and He will tabernacle with them, and they shall be His peoples, and God Himself shall be with them -- their God. --- "that He may be all in all" (1 Corinthians 15:28)
(Lev 23:4-16 & 23-37)
Although, whatever I red the other day about the three Feasts when the men of the tribes were to appear before God in Jerusalem, was very interesting also. Though I'd like to read it again, if I can find it..
Quote from: marie glen on December 13, 2016, 07:09:31 PM
Genesis 1:3-5 - Young's Literal Translation (YLT)
3 and God saith, `Let light be;' and light is.
4 And God seeth the light that [it is] good, and God separateth between the light and the darkness,
5 and God calleth to the light `Day,' and to the darkness He hath called `Night;' and there is an evening, and there is a morning -- day one.
you say there's another verse saying differently?
This is very simple to explain but very hard to understand without knowing how the ancient calendar worked.
I'll give a simplified explanation.
On our calendar the weekdays have names (Monday, Tuesday,...) and the days of the month numbers.
Not so on the Hebrew calendar. Both weekdays (1...7) had numbers and the day of the month had numbers too (1...30)
There were always, without exception 4 weeks in a month. In those days the moon was visible in the sky.
That's a total of 28 days while the months are 29 or 30 days.
The extra 1 or 2 days had dark nights. Obviously those days where just a day like any other. But they were not counted in the week.
So the numbers of the week days and month days are out of sync
Month day #1 = No week day
Month day #2 = Week day #1
Month day #3 = Week day #2
Month day #4 = Week day #3
Month day #5 = Week day #4
Month day #6 = Week day #5
Month day #7 = Week day #6
Month day #8 = Week day #7 = Sabbath day = Day God rested on.
I guess you did hear about the gap theory found in Gen 1:1-2. It's not a gap. It's that moonless night without a weekday name/number.
http://radical-reaction.com/MyChristianSites/Feasts/8creationdays.html
Quote from: marie glen on December 13, 2016, 07:09:31 PM
The reason the holy days, both Spring and Fall interest me
And summer.
Pentecost is halfway or late summer.
Quote from: marie glen on December 07, 2016, 09:28:47 PM
..namely confusion? so I don't know how anyone could take a firm stand on a doctrine using dates..?
I studied a lot of date related things. I learned much. I know much.
I know so much, I know I don't know the date because several things vital to pinpointing a date are still a mystery (for me) :winkgrin:
:iagree:
I knew about the months being 30 day months and the years of 360 days being made up of these 30 day months - (important for the numbers of Daniel 12:11,12?)
I know too (somewhat) about the leap month.. how often..? :dontknow: (but is in Daniel 12:11? :dontknow: )
I've printed out calendars in order to follow the Hebrew months, and then have forgotten about it shortly afterwards.. Being for the most part unaware of the Holy Days each year :doh:
I know they watched for the tiniest sliver of the new moon, to date the beginning of each month.. if they leave out those watching days.. it'll take a better mathematical mind than mine to follow! :doh: :laughing7:
I also know the days began in the evening.. And know Pentecost is in summer.. and is when the Holy Spirit came upon the believers.. Sealing them.. and the season?! (I know Firstfruits and Pentecost were both on a sunday, though perhaps you disagree.. but if you skip days, does it change the names of the days that follow? :dontknow: :laughing7: )
The verse some take as a 'gap' I think more along the lines of God, the Father could see all potentialities which could be.. chaos. But He straightened all things out (and has done all things just as He has in order to bring about the very best of all possible outcomes and 'end' results. (That's what I think the "chaos" was.)
:Peace2:
in regard to the dead sea scrolls... :2c: the only thing I know about them is that the sea will give up it's dead.
any dead letter in the Word will be quickened with life...and the knowledge of the Lord shall cover the earth..they
will all know me when I forgive all their sin...and the sea will give up it's dead.
:2c: it's the DAY OF THE LORD......the YEAR of SALVATION and the hour of TRIAL{judgement] that God preserves
ALL through! No-one KNOWS the Father but the Son,and unto whom He reveals Him..no-one knows the SON
but the Father[and flesh and blood can not reveal this..but the Father in heaven]
when Jesus spoke of His coming suffering and the hour being upon Him..and the HOUR OF DARKNESS COMING when no
man can work..even the Prince of this world whose works are wicked...some denied..some cowered all were scattered...
some cut off ears..some said 'surely not Lord?" some give him stripes,blows cross impossible to bear with such a load
some pierced his side,some condemned,some exposed his nakedness/shame,some rebuked..some parted His garment
some cast lots for seamless,some pierced His hands,some His feet,some mocked some placed a crown of thorns on
His head,some give Him vinegar for His thirst. one thief..who was not willing to suffer..became angry..and said 'if you're
the son of God come get us off this cross" some lied and said He really wasn't resurrected..some put the sin back on the
people which He bore on the cross..and said He couldn't forgive sins or take them away........He has kept us through
that hour of trial...when the prince of this world come..and NO MAN could work.
there is nothing hidden that will not be revealed. The revelation of Christ and the revelation of the Father and the sons of
God will be revealed....... you shall KNOW the year of Your salvation,the Day of His coming and His hour of judgement.....
Amen Sheila :gsmile: