Hello. I am the King James Bible Believer who has been discussing with Gary the falsehoods of any form of universalism, including "Christian" universalism. I am here on the forum to have a polite but firm Biblical-based discussion on this topic. My stance is simple and direct and based on the Words of God:
1 Jesus Christ is God and we are saved and eternally secure by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, period. The Born-Again believer has Unconditional Eternal Security. I am totally and completely against ALL forms of "lordship salvation" which seek to add human works of obedience to eternal life which is by faith alone in Him alone. This includes the "Arminian" idea that unless you have faith in Jesus plus good works you lose your salvation, AND, the "Calvinistic" idea that unless you have faith in Jesus plus good works, you prove you were never saved or elect. BOTH camps are WRONG. Once we are saved we are to live the rest of our lives for Jesus, in order not to keep salvation or prove salvation but to honor God out of love and to build up rewards. ALL saved people will have joy in Heaven but some will have greater levels of authority and power and ability than others, depending on what we did with our lives after salvation, here on Earth. This includes both doctrine and practice, and what we did with the "Three T's: Time, Talent, Treasure. However, even the "worst" Born Again Christian is eternally secure and a child of God forever.
2 All mankind/humankind are NOT children of God automatically. ALL humans are creations of God. ONLY those who have been saved by the LORD JESUS CHRIST are "sons of God"/children of God. This includes Old Testament saints as well as Church Age saints (I am a Biblical Dispensationalist). When people say to me "God would not send His children to Hell", I agree totally. God would never do this because His children are part of Him (family wise) and God sends to Hell those who have used their free will choice to reject Jesus as their only eternal Savior. Calvinism is wrong: Jesus DID die for ALL humans, but all humans will NOT be saved. Only those who believe.
3 I have been reading some of the detailed posts on this forum. I see alot of emotionalism attempting to masquerade as Biblical evidence. Atheists do this alot: They pretend to rely on scientific or rational arguments but it all boils down to their own emotional arguments against God. Jesus Himself warned people of Hell and the apostle Paul and others warned people of Hell. Time and time again the issue is believe. If everyone makes Heaven there was no reason for Jesus to come and die for us and go through the horror He did. He bore Hell for the believer, literally, because that was the ONLY WAY to save us. We MUST BELIEVE IN HIM and Him ALONE to be saved.
4 I believe someone can be saved by trusting in the finished work and person of Jesus Christ and still go to Heaven even if they deny Hell, if they have trusted in HIM alone. However, some clarifications are vital: This is only if they have been deceived about it. Ie, if you have never believed in the existence of Hell why did you trust in Jesus? What are you saved FROM? Jesus is God and God IS love. Amen. But God is holy and His love includes His judgement.
One of the core problems I notice here is this:
Gary and others seem to think that because Jesus died for all, all humans will ultimately accept Jesus and be in heaven. If I am wrong, please correct me on your stance. Problem: Once the person bodilly dies and they see the truth face to face it is too late. The people in the Book of Revelation, for example, who take the Mark of the Beast have the opportunity to repent but Scripture clearly states they refuse and what do they do? They curse God all the more. These are NOT atheists, mind you, they recognize it is God sending plagues down on them and they hate Him all the more. Once someone dies lost, they are instantly hardened against God like the devils.
Why do you think Satan and the fallen angels can never and will never repent of their hatred and unbelief? Not only did Jesus not die for angels, but, they are forever set and confirmed, hardened in their hate against Him. They SAW directly and have committed the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The Unforgivable SIN! It is like Charles Stanley said, a state in which you die having never believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
There are two families in the universe: The family of God, in Jesus Christ, and the family of Satan. There is no neutrality and no middle ground. You are either a member of one or the other, spiritually. Everyone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ is a child of Satan, no matter how outwardly nice they appear to be, and, once they die in that lost state, they are forever joined to him to burn forever with Him.
Instead of distorting Scripture out of context to make yourselves feel better, warn people that unless they turn to Jesus Christ alone as God and Savior, they will forever burn.
I do not harbor angst to you in this forum, I am here to have loving but truthful Biblical discussion and I welcome all and any comments.
It is possible to go from children of satan to children of God, isn't it?
and were by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3
Why could this happen only in this life and in this age?
Seems like a short time to get eternity right.
Is there anything that states that we have only this life span to get it right?
Remember Jesus led captivity captive when he ascended on high.
Why did those get another chance? Weren't they already 'dead'?
He raises Lazarus from the dead. why did he get another chance?
What I find interesting, is that you state Gary and members here resort to "emotionalism". Looking at your last several paragraphs, you would be very hard pressed to support any of that Biblically. Using the VERY symbolic book of Revelations as a literal accounting of events is short sighted at best. And using it to say our loving heavenly Father would burn people for eternity for temporal sin is just nonsense. Taking that stance you should hope you are right...because I can't imagine taking that stance and being wrong.
Instead why not look at the UR points supported by Scripture found throughout Gary's articles and this forum. How about addressing the points about ages, Gehenna, etc.
If you've believed in and called on Jesus as your Savior, as He has graciously given me faith to do, then I consider you my brother in Christ. If you want to discuss in the manner you say (lovingly), then we should be able to do that. Jesus, Son of God, Savior, is the heart of the gospel. If the Holy Spirit sparks an interest in a truth in scripture, causes us to wonder about it and desire to know more, then our heart is in a place where we can receive. (On the other hand, Saul...:)
I would like for you to see that God has a Plan to work all things according to His will, and it's not His will that any should be lost. I would like for you to see that His Plan is of the ages, and it will culminate in His righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord covering the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. I would like for you to see that He will become All in All, not all in some. I would like for you to see that in the oldest manuscripts Jesus only spoke of temporary discipline, not in a pagan concept later added by translators. But if your heart hasn't been prompted to see it or really seek to understand it, and if your goal is to just fight against it, then I'm personally OK with us just disagreeing over it and moving on. If you or I are at a place where either one of us adamantly insists we have "all the right views and answers, have interpreted every scripture perfectly and therefor everyone else's '-ism' is completely without merit", then there's probably not much either of us can say to help the other "see". "Contend for sound doctrine", yes. But we all see through a glass darkly, and God will reveal all in due time. James.
Quote from: Alumina on July 16, 2012, 03:35:22 AM
ALL saved people will have joy in Heaven but some will have greater levels of authority and power and ability than others, depending on what we did with our lives after salvation, here on Earth.
4 I believe someone can be saved by trusting in the finished work and person of Jesus Christ and still go to Heaven even if they deny Hell, if they have trusted in HIM alone. However, some clarifications are vital: This is only if they have been deceived about it. Ie, if you have never believed in the existence of Hell why did you trust in Jesus? What are you saved FROM? Jesus is God and God IS love. Amen. But God is holy and His love includes His judgement.
. . . . . . .
Gary and others seem to think that because Jesus died for all, all humans will ultimately accept Jesus and be in heaven. If I am wrong, please correct me on your stance.
Just one topic for me to bring some clarity to at this time: "Heaven
s" occurs just a few pecentage points more often than the singular "heaven." Scripture speaks of, "War in heaven." (Rv 12
7) Jesus says, "Heaven and Earth shall pass away, but my word shall never pass away." These examples, and others following, show the popular way people think of the word heaven(s) obviously differs from the Bible's way of using these words. It is part of what I call, "Cartoon Christianity." We may start there, but we don't have to stay there.
The phrase,"Go to heaven" is never used in the Bible. The closest is in 2 Co 11, where Paradise may or may not be connected to the third heaven. Heaven is spoken of in Scripture as being our place of origin (Rev 21
10) and our present place of abode, we "sit together in heavenly places in Christ Jesus" (Ep 2
6;) but, never is heaven spoken of as our destination.
Salvation, Greek:
sozo, is very distorted when used to refer to a better place in death. I hear this in so many I wonder how much the resurrection is on their mind and if they even believe in it at all. Where ever one is in death we shall all be raise out of it, "Each in their own order." (1 Co 15) Salvation is, to "Keep from injury or evil, such as disease, drowning, but specially from sins and their effect." (
Keyword Concordance, A. E. Knoch) What we are saved from is the death in Adam. We are transferred into the life of Christ, being, "...made partakers of the Divine nature." "For even as, in Adam, all are dying, thus also, in Christ, shall all be made alive." (1 Co 15
22) Salvation is God's process to accomplish His self described purpose, "Let us make man in our in image and likeness, and let them have dominion..." (Gn 1
26)
The result of salvation is described by Paul as, "...a perfect man...the measure of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ep 4
13) I think it should become clear that if this is the purpose for every man woman and child who has the gift of the Holy Spirit within and upon them, then to meet as members of His body, with Christ the head present and leading forth out of each and every member is central to how this image and likeness if brought forth, both corporately and individually. To have other mediators who "do church" for us is one of the foremost evidences of the present apostasy and the means by which the people of God are robbed of their gifts and blessings, their callings and their inheritance as children of God.
Quote from: jabcat on July 16, 2012, 07:22:58 AM
If you've believed in and called on Jesus as your Savior, as He has graciously given me faith to do, then I consider you my brother in Christ. If you want to discuss in the manner you say (lovingly), then we should be able to do that. Jesus, Son of God, Savior, is the heart of the gospel. If the Holy Spirit sparks an interest in a truth in scripture, causes us to wonder about it and desire to know more, then our heart is in a place where we can receive. (On the other hand, Saul...:)
I would like for you to see that God has a Plan to work all things according to His will, and it's not His will that any should be lost. I would like for you to see that His Plan is of the ages, and it will culminate in His righteousness and the knowledge of the Lord covering the whole earth as the waters cover the sea. I would like for you to see that He will become All in All, not all in some. I would like for you to see that in the oldest manuscripts Jesus only spoke of temporary discipline, not in a pagan concept later added by translators. But if your heart hasn't been prompted to see it or really seek to understand it, and if your goal is to just fight against it, then I'm personally OK with us just disagreeing over it and moving on. If you or I are at a place where either one of us adamantly insists we have "all the right views and answers, have interpreted every scripture perfectly and therefor everyone else's '-ism' is completely without merit", then there's probably not much either of us can say to help the other "see". "Contend for sound doctrine", yes. But we all see through a glass darkly, and God will reveal all in due time. James.
Well said.
Thanks Shawn, you too. Some good questions and suggestions have already been raised for consideration. Blessings.
Quote from: Alumina on July 16, 2012, 03:35:22 AM
Hello. I am the King James Bible Believer who has been discussing with Gary the falsehoods of any form of universalism, including "Christian" universalism.
Quote1 Jesus Christ is God and we are saved and eternally secure by faith alone in the Lord Jesus Christ alone, period.
What do you think the word "Christian" in "Christian Universalism" is refering to?
QuoteI am totally and completely against ALL forms of "lordship salvation" which seek to add human works of obedience to eternal life which is by faith alone in Him alone.
QuoteOnce we are saved we are to live the rest of our lives for Jesus, in order not to keep salvation or prove salvation but to honor God out of love
What if you don't do such 'works'? Does it mean you were not saved in the first place?
Quoteand to build up rewards.
Building for gains is works. The only works of love are for the benefits of others. Not for personal gain. So you do promote works.
QuoteALL saved people will have joy in Heaven but some will have greater levels of authority and power and ability than others, depending on what we did with our lives after salvation, here on Earth.
Blessed are the meek.
Quote2 All mankind/humankind are NOT children of God automatically. ALL humans are creations of God. ONLY those who have been saved by the LORD JESUS CHRIST are "sons of God"/children of God. This includes Old Testament saints as well as Church Age saints
Did Abraham worship Jesus for the Blood He would shed on the cross many centuries later?
Quote(I am a Biblical Dispensationalist). When people say to me "God would not send His children to Hell", I agree totally. God would never do this because His children are part of Him (family wise) and God sends to Hell those who have used their free will choice to reject Jesus as their only eternal Savior.
Proverbs 16:9 A man's heart plans his way: but the LORD directs his steps.
QuoteCalvinism is wrong: Jesus DID die for ALL humans, but all humans will NOT be saved. Only those who believe.
Only ===> Especially
Quote3 I have been reading some of the detailed posts on this forum. I see alot of emotionalism attempting to masquerade as Biblical evidence.
I really doubt you even come close refuting those posts. That said show us your proof for the claims you made in your first post.
QuoteIf everyone makes Heaven there was no reason for Jesus to come and die for us and go through the horror He did. He bore Hell for the believer, literally, because that was the ONLY WAY to save us. We MUST BELIEVE IN HIM and Him ALONE to be saved.
You really have no clue what Jesus mission was on earth, do you?
The wages of sin is death. Jesus died to pay those wages. Remember His nearly last words "paid in full".
Without the death of Jesus not a single person can enter heaven. Unless they are without sin of course. And we both know nobody, except Jesus, reaches that standard..... So think of the most perfect/pure/saintly person you can imagine (besides Jesus). Then image all humans taht ever lived are as good as that person. How many would make it into heaven?
Answer: Exactly zero. None.
QuoteI believe someone can be saved by trusting in the finished work and person of Jesus Christ and still go to Heaven even if they deny Hell, if they have trusted in HIM alone.
Now we are getting somewhere! Believing in Christ is what counts. Not hell, or any other thing.
QuoteHowever, some clarifications are vital: This is only if they have been deceived about it. Ie, if you have never believed in the existence of Hell why did you trust in Jesus?
Because Jesus is on every page of the Bible. Hell isn't on a single page. Hell is a satanic doctrine promoted by those who want to defame the kind nature (God=Love) of both Father and Son. Those hell promoting dark minds did more harm to Christianity than science/atheism you mentioned earlier. Assuming Christian Universalist really don't believe in hell; does that mean they are decieved in your opinion?
QuoteWhat are you saved FROM?
According to your doctrine Father sent His Son to save us from Himself...
QuoteJesus is God and God IS love. Amen. But God is holy and His love includes His judgement.
Nobody on this forum, I'm aware of, denies there will be judgement. The diffrence between us (you, other forum members) is that you believe in satanic justice and we in Fatherly correction/discpline. Yep, correction, the word Jesus always used.
QuoteGary and others seem to think that because Jesus died for all, all humans will ultimately accept Jesus and be in heaven. If I am wrong, please correct me on your stance.
That part of UR you understood correctly.
QuoteProblem: Once the person bodilly dies and they see the truth face to face it is too late.
Belief and kneel is the requirement. I see no time restriction.
http://tentmaker.org/forum/bible-verses-used-to-assert-not-all-will-be-saved/hebrews-927-after-death-comes-judgement/
QuoteThe people in the Book of Revelation, for example, who take the Mark of the Beast have the opportunity to repent but Scripture clearly states they refuse and what do they do? They curse God all the more. These are NOT atheists, mind you, they recognize it is God sending plagues down on them and they hate Him all the more. Once someone dies lost, they are instantly hardened against God like the devils.
Which verse that states it's to late for them (at that point)?
QuoteWhy do you think Satan and the fallen angels can never and will never repent of their hatred and unbelief? Not only did Jesus not die for angels, but, they are forever set and confirmed, hardened in their hate against Him. They SAW directly and have committed the Blasphemy of the Holy Spirit. The Unforgivable SIN! It is like Charles Stanley said, a state in which you die having never believed in the Lord Jesus Christ.
The unforgiveble sin is a unBiblical doctrine.
QuoteThere are two families in the universe: The family of God, in Jesus Christ, and the family of Satan. There is no neutrality and no middle ground.
Don't worry Alumina. Once your veils or darkness are ripped away you are also adopted into God's family.
QuoteYou are either a member of one or the other, spiritually.
A bit like the sheep hearing the voice of the Shepherd. And not to forget the sheep of the other flock that will also respond to the Good Sheperd that even saves that single sheep.
QuoteEveryone who rejects the Lord Jesus Christ is a child of Satan, no matter how outwardly nice they appear to be, and, once they die in that lost state, they are forever joined to him to burn forever with Him.
Same for the "Christians" who make lengthy posts to slander God's loving character, His will and His ability to make that will come true.
QuoteInstead of distorting Scripture out of context to make yourselves feel better, warn people that unless they turn to Jesus Christ alone as God and Savior, they will forever burn.
I do not harbor angst to you in this forum, I am here to have loving but truthful Biblical discussion and I welcome all and any comments.
Same for me Alumina! Just as you meant good calling us liars, emotionalists, Word-twisters and decieved I meant well calling you peddler of demonic doctrine.
:welcome: :newb:
Hi Alumina and welcome! I used to believe basically the same things you did. I come from a Baptist/Wesleyan background. You had mentioned that you see a lot of "emotionalism" in UR beliefs. Well that may be true and I honestly don't think that's a bad thing. If something seems wrong to your conscience it very well could be. One of the main things that brought me to the truth of God's plan for the ages was the birth of my daughter. I just knew that Love could never (and would never) let her be tormented in "Hell" forever and ever, no matter what she did or didn't do, or no matter what she believed. I had quite a dark period in my life around this time because even though my heart knew it, my head was still fixed on hell passages and teachings of the church. I cried out to God for the truth and He answered. He led me to a "UR" website and led me to 3 books that either hinted at or openly taught UR. I was NOT looking for books that taught UR and the titles of these books gave no indication that they even suggested it. I got all three books in one trip to the library. (I also later learned that I had put one book back that I was contemplating on borrowing that taught ET. If that's not an indicator I don't know what is.) I also was not looking for the website, it appeared in a link on the side of my email one day and caught my eye. I know you will likely chalk all this up to coincidences but I can assure you, these were no coincidences!
In regards to what are we saved from: like many others have stated, we are saved from SIN and DEATH. This is what the Bible teaches. Find a verse that says we are saved from Hell if you can. (In the OT often David would say in the Psalms, You have saved me from the "pit" or from "Sheol" which is the grave. He was not talking about some fiery torture pit for sure.) The Lord purifies us with His holy fire and burns all of the impurities out of us. This will happen to every soul, INCLUDING those in the "church" who call Jesus "Lord, Lord" and yet continue to work iniquity.
Also, how was Jesus' death and resurrection in vain if He saves EVERYONE, not just a select few?? He is the Saviour of all. Isn't that a true victory? YES and AMEN! Likely what is hindering you from seeing this is the false belief that "Christians" (those who say, "Jesus is Lord") are "in" and get transferred to some pearly gated, golden streeted mansion in the clouds upon death. Not so. The purified are the only ones allowed to enter. No sin will enter the kingdom and we will all be purified beforehand, either in this life or the next. We are saved from SIN and from DEATH, THROUGH the purifying fire of God! We all must go through this and be purified! Sin hurts us and it hurts those around us and God will not allow that sin to continue to hurt us. He loves us too much.
I pray that your eyes and heart will be opened to the truth Alumina. God really IS Love.
Blessings.
Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--John 14:6
John 10:9 I am the gate; whoever enters through me will be saved. He will come in and go out, and find pasture.
For through him we both have access by one Spirit unto the Father. Eph 2:18
It doesn't get any more emotional than this.
Then Jonah prayed to the Lord his God from the fish's belly. 2 And he said:
"I cried out to the Lord because of my affliction,
And He answered me.
"Out of the belly of Sheol I cried,
And You heard my voice.
3 For You cast me into the deep,
Into the heart of the seas,
And the floods surrounded me;
All Your billows and Your waves passed over me.
4 Then I said, 'I have been cast out of Your sight;
Yet I will look again toward Your holy temple.'
5 The waters surrounded me, even to my soul;
The deep closed around me;
Weeds were wrapped around my head.
6 I went down to the moorings of the mountains;
The earth with its bars closed behind me forever;
Yet You have brought up my life from the pit,
O Lord, my God.
7 "When my soul fainted within me,
I remembered the Lord;
And my prayer went up to You,
Into Your holy temple.
8 "Those who regard worthless idols
Forsake their own Mercy.
9 But I will sacrifice to You
With the voice of thanksgiving;
I will pay what I have vowed.
Salvation is of the Lord."
10 So the Lord spoke to the fish, and it vomited Jonah onto dry land.
--Jonah 2
Salvation H3444 is of the LORD.H3068
--Jonah 2
Y'shû‛âh is LORD.
-- Jonah 2
Yes Molly, amen!
Also - every knee will bow and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord to the glory of God the Father.
No man can say Jesus is Lord apart from the Holy Spirit.
:HeartThrob:
Why does he put that name above every name?
Because it is the function, the salvation of all men, that is closest to his heart.
Look unto me, and be ye saved, all the ends of the earth: for I am God, and there is none else.
--Isa 45:22
Nations will come to your light, and kings to the brightness of your dawn. Isa 60:3
Quote from: Reformerbut, never is heaven spoken of as our destination.
I disagree.
For we know that if our earthly house, this tent, is destroyed, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal [aionios] in the heavens.
--2 Cor 5
Quote from: Alumina on July 16, 2012, 03:35:22 AM
Hello. I am the King James Bible Believer who has been discussing with Gary the falsehoods of any form of universalism, including "Christian" universalism. I am here on the forum to have a polite but firm Biblical-based discussion on this topic. My stance is simple and direct and based on the Words of God:
Frankly, "IF" one assumes the KJV is "THE" correct translation, as it seems your intro would indicate, then we don't have much to talk about for the KJV errantly translates Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna as "Hell" 63 times. Thankfully, modern translations are increasingly correcting these mistakes in the KJV. Even the NKJV corrects 32 of these mistakes and only continues to mistakenly translate Sheol, Hades, and Gehenna as Hell 31 times.
"IF" one tries to understand scripture through the lense of the KJV, then one will certainly be predisposed to believe in Hell because in the KJV Hell is all over the place, though of course the Hebrew and Greek text doesn't support such. Sheol means grave/realm of the dead. Hades (Greek word used to translate Sheol in the LXX0 simply means "realm of the dead". In Greek mythology, all went to Hades upon death; and within Hades people were consigned to different realms.
And Gehenna, which Matthew (almost exclusively) quotes Jesus warning of, is actually a transliteration of the Hebrew Ga Hinnom, which was a reference to the valley of Hinnom just outside and SE of Jerusalem. The best translation would be "Hinnom Valley". It was/is a "real" place and thus needs to be interpreted metaphorically, not literally. What did Jesus mean by warning of being cast into Hinnom Valley where there was an "eternal" fire and had "worms that die not"? First note that "worms that die not" is a reference to Maggots which are worms that do not die, but seem to appear from nowhere when dead flesh is exposed and disappear (die not) when the dead flesh is consumed.
1) Many theologians believe Hinnom Valley was one of Jerusalem's trash dumps. This fits the concept of being a place of "eternal" fire and maggots. If this aspect of Hinnom Valley is what Jesus was alluding to, then Jesus is metaphorically warning of a person's life being "trashed", "going to the dogs" as we might say today. And if so, it says nothing of punishment in the afterlife.
2) Hinnom Valley was the place where the Israelites sacrificed their children to the idol Molech via fire, which was the straw (hay bale) that broke the back of God's grace and resulted in the destruction of Jerusalem and Babylonian captivity. IF this aspect of Hinnom Valley is what Jesus was alluding to, then Jesus is warning of the real-life bondage and destruction of sin in a person's life. If you give your life over to sin, you'll be so consumed by evil that you'll even sacrifice your own children to your idols! And in the context of Jesus speaking specifically to the Jews He could have also been warning of the coming destruction of Jerusalem by the Romans. Neither of these though imply endless torment, of course.
3) And the Pharisees used Hinnom Valley as a metaphor of non-specific punishment in the afterlife, with many, if not all being purified through such punishment of sin in the afterlife (less than a year long), and for some the possibility of annihilation or indefinitely long torment for the especially wicked like Herod. IF Jesus is referencing this metaphorical use of Hinnom Valley then He is warning of non-specific, and primarily remedial type punishment in the afterlife for sin. The Mark 9 passage would seem to lean this direction, especially when one considers that after warning of the fire of Hinnom Valley in the previous verses, Jesus then says that "everyone will be salted by fire"!
So which did Jesus mean by His warnings concerning Hinnom Valley? Well, He does not specify, but leaves it open to speak to people, graphically and emotionally warning of the death and destruction that comes as a result of sin! If we sin, whether we are believers or not, children of God or not, sin brings death and destruction, a trashed life, the fear of anger and punishment from God in this life and the life to come, death and destruction to all that we know, and increasing bondage to evil! Jesus meant His warnings to illicit an emotional response from His audience, the children of God, and to emotionally motivate them to live righteously and not give in to our baser selfish desires!
Well, anyhow, "IF" one limits his/her study of scripture to the KJV, then one will naturally be limited by the mistakes in the KJV.
Don't put all the blame on King James Version. [and btw, what IS the judgment of Gehenna? It doesn't sound so pleasant.]
New International Version (©1984)
"You snakes! You brood of vipers! How will you escape being condemned to hell?
New Living Translation (©2007)
Snakes! Sons of vipers! How will you escape the judgment of hell?
English Standard Version (©2001)
You serpents, you brood of vipers, how are you to escape being sentenced to hell?
New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"You serpents, you brood of vipers, how will you escape the sentence of hell?
King James Bible (Cambridge Ed.)
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
International Standard Version (©2008)
You snakes, you children of serpents! How can you escape being condemned to hell?
Aramaic Bible in Plain English (©2010)
Snakes! Offspring of vipers! How will you escape from the judgment of Gehenna?
GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
"You snakes! You poisonous snakes! How can you escape being condemned to hell?
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the judgment of hell?
American King James Version
You serpents, you generation of vipers, how can you escape the damnation of hell?
American Standard Version
Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
Douay-Rheims Bible
You serpents, generation of vipers, how will you flee from the judgment of hell?
Darby Bible Translation
Serpents, offspring of vipers, how should ye escape the judgment of hell?
English Revised Version
Ye serpents, ye offspring of vipers, how shall ye escape the judgment of hell?
Webster's Bible Translation
Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?
Weymouth New Testament
O serpents, O vipers' brood, how are you to escape condemnation to Gehenna?
World English Bible
You serpents, you offspring of vipers, how will you escape the judgment of Gehenna?
Young's Literal Translation
'Serpents! brood of vipers! how may ye escape from the judgment of the gehenna?
The judgment of Gehenna is likely getting all the garbage (sin) burned in us. That's how I take it... but it's just an inference.
Bible semantics
The English word Hell comes from the Anglo-Saxon word Hel, meaning, simply, a hidden place or a place covered over, although the Bible contains four different words, which, for some reason, have all been rendered using this word. In the Old Testament we find it used in place of the original Hebrew word lwav Sheol, and in the New Testament the same word is used in place of the Greek word geenna Gehenna - an anglicised transliteration of the Hebrew Mnh-ayq Gehinnom. We also find the word Hell used in place of the Greek words adhv Hades and tartarow Tartarus.
The word Sheol more often means "the grave," although in some instances it is also rendered as "the underworld." Its predominant use in the Old Testament is to describe the "place of the dead," nothing more. Hades, often disputed to be the Greek equivalent of Sheol, means unseen, concealed, or invisible, and is also the name of the underworld in Greek mythology. The word Tartarus, likewise, can be found in the classical Greek literature of the Homeric and Hesiodic periods were it was used to describe a place of darkness reserved for the chastening of the Titans. The word cannot be found anywhere in the Hebrew of the Old Testament, though, and appears only once in the New Testament. Tartarus, like Hades, could, therefore, be considered to be of pagan origin and one cannot accept belief in either of these places without also accepting the Greek mythology associated with them. Gehenna is the only word in the Bible which can predominantly be associated with fire, although, the word refers to a place located outside Jerusalem, in the Valley of Hinnom, where fires were kept up for the burning of the city's rubbish. The fires of Gehenna were, then, physical, and actually existed in this world, not the next. That these words are not rendered consistently, though, throughout the Old and New Testaments, is perplexing to say the least, and one can only assume that the translators may well have intended to impose upon their readers a sense different from that of the original Greek and Hebrew. What is often not clear, however, is whether or not such words refer to the physically dead, or the spiritually dead.
Hellenization
Judea had been occupied by many different nations over the years, the effect of which was twofold; not only were the Jewish people often scattered among other nations, they were also subject to the cultural influences of those nations. Cross-fertilisation and integration of religious ideas often took place during such periods, though, and it is well known that some Jews even tried to synthesise Pagan spirituality with their own religious traditions. Later generations of exiled Jews, however, such as the third century BCE 'Diaspora, became so integrated into Greek speaking Alexandria, that they could no longer understand Hebrew, and had to have the Torah translated into Greek. This translation, known as the Septuagint, is the version quoted in almost all New Testament works today, although it is no longer used by Jews.
It is maintained that the Septuagint is 'a reasonably free rendering of the original Hebrew texts which takes into account what Greek speaking readers would understand, and what they would expect to hear.' Unfortunately, though, the actions of the "expert scribes" may well have been very lapse, or even very mischievous, given that they rendered in line with Greek mythology and philosophy, and thus the presence of the word Hades. That this was erroneous can be shown, especially in the story of Joseph in the book of Genesis, where it is obvious that the writer meant "grave," not the "House of Hades." For example, when Joseph's brothers return to Canaan, Jacob says to them:
'...My son shall not go down with you; for his brother is dead, and he is left alone: if mischief befall him by the way in which ye go, then shall ye bring down my grey hairs with sorrow to the grave...' (Genesis 42:38)
The term "...then shall ye bring down my grey hairs with sorrow to the grave..." is a euphemism, meaning that, by taking away his son, Benjamin, they would be the cause of his death in his old age. Although the margins of later Christian revisions often contain a reference to the original Sheol, we are still left with the dilemma of believing that they both mean the same thing, when in fact, they do not.
The problem which now remains, however, is whether the semantic signal generated by the word "Hell," triggers the Sheol concept of "the grave" or rather, the Hades concept of the place of the Hundred-handed and the three headed watchdog named Cerberus? Given that both words developed within two entirely different cultures, it remains somewhat of a quandary as to why the scribes never transliterated Sheol into Greek in the first place, as they did with Gehenna elsewhere. Although it is doubtful whether Hades should ever have been written into the Canon of Jewish, and Christian, religious texts, the sad fact remains that the conceptual link which has developed between Sheol and Hades has become so much of a tradition that it is difficult to break.
Eternal damnation
A closer look at the likes of "eternal damnation" and "everlasting punishment," etc., also reveal problems for those of a "hell fire" persuasion. For example, in the gospel of Matthew, it states:
'...Then he shall answer them, saying, "Verily I say unto you, inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me. And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal." (Matthew 25:45,46).
Now in this passage, the words spoken by Jesus are "aionion kolasin," which are, incorrectly, rendered as "everlasting punishment." There are, in fact, a number of Greek words, which, despite having slightly different meanings, have all been rendered as either eternal, everlasting, or for ever. In the Old Testament the most common word used is Mle olam, which means the hidden time, and is derived from the Chaldee alam, to hide. In the New Testament, we find the word aiwniov aionios, or aionian, meaning of, or belonging to, an age. Aionios is the adjective of the Greek noun aion, which means age, but which is also rendered as course or world. Aionion does not mean everlasting or eternal. Had Jesus meant everlasting or eternal he could have used a word like aidion, which does mean eternal; as in aidion timorion, which means "eternal torment," or, eirgmon aidion, which means "eternal imprisonment."
The Greek word kolasiv kolasin, likewise, may be defined more as a form of chastisement, as in pruning or checking for the purposes of discipline or correction. Thus, he who seeks to punish does so, not for past wrongs, but for the sake of the future. Thus, the act of pruning or correcting the person is so that they benefit from it, and there is no retribution involved. The word "damnation," comes from the Greek word krisiv krisis, which, more accurately, means a judgement, or a separating, although, the word has also been rendered as condemnation and accusation. Subsequently, the words translated into the term "eternal damnation" may equally, be translated as just "a period of judgement," or even "a period of correction."
The valley of Hinnom
It is often suggested that Jesus himself spent a large part of his ministery warning people about Hell, the eveidence for which, comes from the New Testament synoptics, where the word appears about 15 times. In the Greek of these gospels, however, the actual words used by Jesus were Hades and Gehenna, which, as we have seen, offer slim evidence indeed for a place of eternal damnation. Now even if Jesus was fluent in Greek, and well versed in their mythology, the fact remains, that he was a Jew, who came to fulfil Jewish Messianic prophecy, not Greek mythology. To this end, it can usually be shown that, far from warning people about punishment in the afterlife, Jesus is, more often, talking about punishment in this life. For example, in the gospel of Matthew Jesus is quoted as saying:
'...Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the judgement.' But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, without a cause, shall be in danger of the judgement: and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca' shall be in danger of the council: but whosoever shall say, 'Thou fool,' shall be in danger of hell fire.' (Matthew 5:21,22).
An exegesis of this verse will, however, disclose that it conceals far more than it reveals to the unsuspecting eye. For, in using the word "judgement," Jesus is referring to the lower ecclesiastical court of 3 judges who presided in the Synagogue, and in using the word "council," he is referring to the Supreme, or Great Council of the seventy, also known as the Sanhedrin. Moreover, in using "Gehenna," Jesus is referring to the well-known geographical location, south of the city, the place where the bodies of the "wicked" were, allegedly, disposed of by burning. Gehenna, incidentally, became the object of utmost loathing to many Jews, and, more importantly, was often employed as a symbol of any great woe or judgement. In rendering the verse as it is above, the translators disguise the fact that Gehenna was in this world, as were both the Judges and the Sanhedrin. The verse may, therefore, be translated just as accurately as:
'...Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, 'Thou shalt not kill; and whosoever shall kill shall be in danger of the [judges].' But I say unto you, that whosoever is angry with his brother, without a cause, shall be in danger of the [judges]: and whosoever shall say to his brother, 'Raca' shall be in danger of the [Sanhedrin]: but whosoever shall say [to his brother], 'Thou fool,' shall be in danger of [an even greater woe].'
When the verse is translated thus, and taken in context with verses 16 to 26, it becomes clear that Jesus is talking figuratively and not literally, or even metaphorically, as many have supposed. The verse is about anger and the law of murder, and how exacting and demanding the kingdom of God is in this life, not the next. And the moral of the story is, of course, that the greater the anger, the greater the potential consequences of that anger.
The offending eye
Jesus uses the word Gehenna again further on down in the same chapter, the full account of which reads:
"...Ye have heard that it was said by them of old time, Thou shalt not commit adultery: But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart. And if thy right eye offend thee, pluck it out, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell. And if thy right hand offend thee, cut it off, and cast it from thee: for it is profitable for thee that one of thy members should perish, and not that thy whole body should be cast into hell..." (Matthew 5:27-30).
Jesus is talking about transgressing the law of adultery here, which was regarded as a great social wrong, as well as a great sin. However, no one should suppose that he is speaking literally about the removal of body parts. Hypocatastasis is the nature of the vocabulary here, and the right-eye should be seen, only as an implied representation of something which is a stumbling block, as should the hand, which was often the symbol of human action.
The word offend in this verse is rendered from the Greek word skandalizw skandalizo, which means; to cause one to stumble, or even to entice one to sin. However, in reality it is seldom the eye, or the hand, which leads a person into mischief, for these are only outward actions which result from that which is within - the mind, or the heart, etc. Given this, the same verses may be translated, just as accurately, as:
"...And if [a married woman is the object of your desire, then remove this stumbling block] from thee: for it is profitable for thee that [this part of thee] should perish, and not that thy whole body [be subject to even greater woe because of it]..."
It is clear, then, that the stumbling block, in this instance, is adultery, and rather than Jesus warning people about a literal Hell, he is in fact, giving sound advice on the consequences of it, in this life. It is likely that such 'stumbling blocks,' were so much a part of the nation at the time, that removing them, or giving them up, was so difficult, that it was like giving up a body part, and hence the symbolism of the allegory. The reader should be reminded, however, that as with most allegories of this nature, there is often another meaning concealed within, as we shall see later.
The undying worm
To the light bed-time reader, the Gospel of Mark, apparently, provides us with a little more information about Gehenna which is not mentioned elsewhere, although beneath the surface, rather than support the view of a literal Hell, it actually undermines it:
'...And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off. It is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast onto hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. And if thine eye offend thee, pluck it out. It is better for thee to enter into the kingdom of God with one eye, than having two eyes to be cast into hell fire. Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched. For everyone shall be salted with fire, and every sacrifice shall be salted with salt. Salt is good. But if the salt have lost its saltiness, wherewith shall ye season it. Have salt in yourselves and have peace one with another...' (Mark 9:43-50)
Aside of the contingent hypothesis, the term "enter into life," in these verses, surprisingly, has nothing to do with entering into the after-life, or heaven. The word "enter" is rendered from the Greek word eisercomai eiserchomai, which means to come in, or go out, but can also be used metaphorically to denote entrance into a condition, or state. These words, therefore, refer to vitality, and entering into fullness of life whilst in this world, rather than the next. To be maimed, of course, is to be wounded, injured, or hurt, be that physically, or psychologically, and the result of removing a stumbling block from some individuals would have exactly that effect - giving up sin hurts, in other words.
The term "...Where their worm dieth not and the fire is not quenched..." is repeated three times in this verse, thus, among other things, drawing the attention of the reader to its importance. The "worm" in this verse is rendered from the Greek word skwlhx skolex, the name given to a specific type of worm, which feeds on decaying matter - a detritivore in fact. The equivalent Hebrew word is hmr rimmah, a worm, or maggot, also associated with decay. Now the writer of Mark's Gospel would have us believe that Jesus is quoting from the Old Testament book of Isaiah, but the problem with this, is that the worm referred to in Isaiah is not associated with decay at all - quite the opposite, in fact:
For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain. And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one Sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD. And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh (Isaiah 66:22-24).
The Hebrew word used here is elwt towla, meaning specifically coccus ilicis, the female worm, or grub, from which, the much sort after, scarlet dye was extracted. In the Old Testament the word is nearly always translated as "scarlet," the colour predominantly associated with wealth and importance, etc., and, not surprisingly, a colour which was a prominent feature of the Tabernacle. Perhaps the most important occurrence of this word, though, is in the book of Job, where it is used in reference to, none other than, "the son of man" himself:
How much less man, that is a worm? [rimmah] and the son of man, which is a worm? [towla]. (Job 25:6)
Job makes it clear that there is a distinction to be made between these two worms, as one is associated with death and decay [rimmah], the other with royalty, the "son of man" [towla]. The life-cycle of the towla was, then, evidently, symbolic of the shedding of Jesus' blood on the cross - or on a tree, as Acts would have it - and, subsequently, the resurrection and the eternal life which was to follow. That this is the sense in which towla is used in Isaiah 66 is evident from other words used in verse 24; the word "abhorring," for example, comes from the Hebrew word Nward dera'own, which can also be translated as aversion or contempt, and to hold someone in contempt is, of course, to despise them. That Jesus was "a reproach of men, and despised of the people" is attested to in Psalm 22:6, where again, we find the word towla translated as worm. The word "unto" is rendered from the Hebrew word la 'el which can also mean by, and the word "flesh" is rendered from the Hebrew word rsb basar which can also mean mankind.
It should also be remembered that the latter portion of the book of Isaiah was, for the most part, written to reassure those in Jerusalem, that God was going to fulfil his promises to the faithful. The fate of the rebellious, however, is also described, especially in chapter 65:1-16, for example, and it is this fate which is aptly summed up in chapter 66:24, in the term "...the carcasses of the men that have transgressed against me." This is evident from the fact that the word transgressed is rendered from the Hebrew word evp pasha, which also means to rebel.
What is more important, though, is that the "worm" and the "fire" mentioned here, does not refer to those who have "transgressed" or rebelled against the Lord. The worm here is towla, which was not a symbol of death or decay, but rather, a symbol of wealth, status, and eternal life through the son of man. So it is the faithful who shall "go forth" and it is "their seed" and "their name," that will remain, just as the "new heavens and the new earth," but it is they, also, who will be "despised by all mankind," just as Jesus was. It is their fire which shall not be quenched, not the fire of the carcasses of the rebellious.
It would appear then, that the writer of Mark, either did not know the real significance and symbolism of the undying worm when he constructed his gospel, or he simply could not find a Greek equivalent for it. In the latter case, it remains a mystery why he did not, then, transliterate the Hebrew towla, instead of using the Greek word skolex. That the writer of the Gospel of Mark completely misses the importance of the Old Testament symbology has proved to be totally misleading, for it presents the unwary reader with what appears to be just another allusion to Hell, when in fact, it is not.
Just thought I'd throw my two pence (or cents since many of you are from the US).
The emotional aspect of Universalism is kind of our "moral witness" (Hope Beyond Hell). When the doctrine of eternal torment is challenged and discussed logically; "let us reason" (Isaiah 1:18), it falls apart and goes against everything Jesus Christ and ultimately, God stands for. How can we "dwelleth in love, dwelleth in God" (1 John 4:16) and "overcome evil with good" (Romans 12:21) when eternal torment is the exact opposite of what we're asked to do. God says "vengeance is mine" (Romans 12:19), but remember that He will never have vengeance if it doesn't end. He will never be satisfied because the will of man is exalted above the will of God. We are our own gods if our will is higher than God's own will.
God broke my will one day and my word, it broke me bad. If He could do that to me (and I didn't ask for him. In fact, I believed in the Ancient Aliens stuff until one random morning), then He can do it for everyone, otherwise, He is lazy. God's creation proves he is not lazy.
One final thought; if God is powerless to save everyone, then Satan has claimed victory with the majority of souls because God overcomes evil with evil. God is supposed to be impartial, yet He is partial in the doctrine of ET. You cannot serve two masters (Matthew 6:24). ET requires us to be unequally yolked with love and torment, two masters of such contradiction that they do not deserve to occupy the same space.
The day God's will is in everyone, therefore He is All in All is the day we will all glorify his name together. What a beautiful thought.
I'd ask that we please keep this thread on topic and not get into discussing "rabbit trails" that we have and can discuss in other threads.
That said, hoepfully this will be helpful to the direction of the thread. First of all, I believe anyone who knows me knows that holding the scriptures (accurately translated, Spirit revealed) in high esteem is one thing I'll "go toe-to-toe" with someone on. However, I personally believe mistranslations of gehenna, sheol, aion, kolasin aionios, etc., have been very significant in the huge numbers of Christendom that have accepted the eternal hell distortion. Some, for some reason (God's will) have been given the blessing to have UR revealed to them, despite their primary use of translations that have those translational errors in them.
Molly, you are one, who was apparently very blessed to not have been indoctrinated with fear, retribution, focus on God's anger, etc., and His supposed intent to torture most of His creation "forever"; and then having that burned into your consciousness, and then reinforced ("proved") by whatever translation you read. I believe you're by far the exception. Most believe those teachings are of God, "because the Bible (their version) says so". I know absolutely wonderful people - people who are "better than me" so to speak - who cling to the idea of eternal torment, and cannot - absolutely CANNOT see past what their translation says about it. "It's in the Bible!" On the other hand, I believe some of those who do still primarily use versions that translate as "hell", "had" to be exposed to other ideas about it, i.e., be informed that there indeed are translational errors, and that those words in the manuscripts actually do say something else than what their translations says, to then help them be able to see past/through what they're reading and into the truth of the matter. Not that "they can no longer or should no longer primarily use their favorite translation", but that they have had their eyes opened to be able to read what's there, but know that it actually means something different (accurate translation of such). And then for a few maybe it makes absolutely no difference what they read; they just know the truth. However, I believe by far, most have been influenced by whatever their primary translation says; and even though God can and does many times cut through it and bring truth, IMO, it's still a big part of where the vital difference between the sharing of truth or error becomes so important. We are affected by both/either. (That's a long 2 cents :)
So maybe we can agree that Molly's statement of "don't blame it ALL on the KJV" is a good standard, while also accepting that many have been very much affected by what their primary (or only) version of the Bible says? I am one that was, and I believe that to be very true.
Blessings to all.
So, where's alumina?
Quote from: jabcat on July 17, 2012, 12:49:31 AM
I'd ask that we please keep this thread on topic and not get into discussing "rabbit trails" that we have and can discuss in other threads.
The opening post isn't really focussed on a single aspect of UR. That's a blessing for rabbits (http://i132.photobucket.com/albums/q3/Misselaineous10/Random%20Stuff/lapin98.gif)
Hahhhaha rabbit smilie ftw!!
Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2012, 09:26:25 PM
Don't put all the blame on King James Version. [and btw, what IS the judgment of Gehenna? It doesn't sound so pleasant.]
My post was not meant to put all the blame on the KJV. I meant to point out that "IF" one is a "KJV only" believer then that significantly hinders one from even considering the possibility of UR regardless of all the scriptures that affirm UR because Hell is all over the place in the KJV. With Hell being named in 64 places in the KJV, one almost cannot help but believe in Hell.
Concerning the judgment of one being cast in Hinnom Valley, yes it is certainly not "pleasant" and I did not affirm such. Sin results in death, destruction, continuing and increasing slavery to evil, etc. Just because it doesn't imply ECT, does not mean that such is not tragic - weeping, wailing, grinding of teeth in regret and remorse over all the evil one has fostered and participated in. And notice, such warnings are especially for believers, for the children of God. To whom much is given, much is required.
Why was Hell spelled Hel in parts of the KJV-1611 Bible?
Did you know that the secular meaning behind the word 'hell,' just as the original meaning of 'hades' simply meant hidden, out of sight? Yep, in the ancient German, when two young folks went to a dark place to hide for some necking, they went to hel, they hid somewhere. Our English words helmut, hall, hole, and heel, all stem from the German word hele. The religious meaning of the word Hell came from Germany too -- actually it came from Teutonic mythology.
Hele was a goddess of the underworld in ancient folklore.
Hel is the name of the Norse underworld, and its ruler. Hel/Hela, in Norse mythology, was the hideous daughter of the Giant Loki, banished to the netherworld, Helheim (literally, 'house of Hel'), world of the dead, by the Chief God, Odin. The distinctive looking Goddess, whose skin is black on one side, rules over the dead until Ragnarok and the coming birth of the new world.
Hel is sister of Fenris, the wolf, and Jormungand, the world-serpent.
The name for the Christian world of torment "Hell" is derived from Hela's abode. Unlike the Christian version, however, Hel's realm was home to all who did not die in battle - miserable as it was, good behavior wasn't any more likely to get one a reprieve. Helheim's entrance works only in one direction- once one has entered, even a God, one cannot leave - like the Greek Hades, Helheim is guarded by a monstrous hound, and encircled by an impassable river. According to legend, the dead will remain in Hel's kingdom until the last days of Ragnarok.
King James 2000 Bible (©2003)
And I say also unto you, That you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church; and the gates of hades shall not prevail against it.
--Mat 16:18
Well, alumina literally hasn't been back. Came online to post the OP, 16 minutes later was gone and hasn't been back. :dunno2:
Well he sure had me convinced, what with his spouting Bible verses all over the place and such like! NOT ! ! !
Case closed :P
Light 1 : Darkness 0
An unrighteous judge bases his decision on only one side of the case and does not take into consideration the testimony of all witnesses, and IMO all testimonies (all witnesses) have not yet been heard by the prosecution (ETer's), therefore the case is still open, But we can rejoice in the fact that we know they will hear and understand when all is said and done.
Maybe alumina came back as a guest, saw all the posts and got scared away LOL. It's a daunting task trying to answer multiple posts from people who obviously disagree with you 100% lol.
Alumina's post makes me so angry. Well think about it, everyone is from God since God created us all and put us in our mother's womb. People who say Jesus cannot save everyone is calling Jesus a failure and plus Jesus cannot be the saviour if He cannot save everyone. If we were all going to hell, Jesus might as well not have died for our sins. Oh, God shouldn't have bothered. Obviously, he or she posted to annoy us all. There is hell on earth. I have been through hell. People go through enough crap as it is. They don't need to realise there might be more torture in the afterlife! I would rather not exist if that happened. Life wouldn't mean anything to me. I rather die and kill myself. We don't need preachers telling us we're bad and we're the worst people ever. I feel angry. I'm fed up with people who tell us there might be eternal hell. It's surprising most near death experiences atheists have are heavenly and christians have hellish ones. It tells me something.
:@@@@@@@
Quote from: lomarah on July 22, 2012, 08:51:02 PM
Maybe alumina came back as a guest, saw all the posts and got scared away LOL. It's a daunting task trying to answer multiple posts from people who obviously disagree with you 100% lol.
That could be. I may send him an email telling him he's got some good replies to respond to.
I did, maybe he'll come back and we can have more good discussion. :thumbsup:
Hell comes back? :dunno2:
Lazarus was already a believer in Jesus when he physically died, before Jesus made him rise from the dead. Lazarus the poor man, he too was saved, as the text states clearly.
Hebrews 9:27 It is appointed unto man once to die and after this the judgement is clear. This one life is all we get, if we are able to accept or reject the Lord Jesus as our Savior. There is no indication that anyone gets a second or more chance.
When Jesus preached to people and led captivity captive, between His death and resurrection, that was Him declaring His victory over Satan and the devils, no lost persons were getting second chances.
Yes, we were all born lost children of wrath but at the moment we believe in the Lord Jesus as our only eternal Savior we become children of God. John 1:12Quote from: Molly on July 16, 2012, 04:28:26 AM
It is possible to go from children of satan to children of God, isn't it?
and were by nature children of wrath Eph 2:3
Why could this happen only in this life and in this age?
Seems like a short time to get eternity right.
Is there anything that states that we have only this life span to get it right?
Remember Jesus led captivity captive when he ascended on high.
Why did those get another chance? Weren't they already 'dead'?
He raises Lazarus from the dead. why did he get another chance?
PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!
I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell! If there was no eternal torment of Hellfire then all the evil would never be dealt with. There would be no eternal justice. People like Hitler and Stalin and that nice little old lady who does great works but denies Jesus Christ as God and only Savior would get to worship their spiritual father Satan and be allowed into Heaven?
The Lord Jesus paid for all of the sins of all humans but the core issue is belief in Him alone. Don't bother getting into "Original Hebrew" and "Original Greek". I only recognize the Authorized King James Bible as God's preserved words. There are no "originals" around. They were all disintegrated.
Jesus said the narrow road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, and the wide road to eternal destruction has most people on it. Most of the human race will end up burning in Hell forever and ever and ever. They will be in a state of concious, endless torment. I deserve this, we all deserve this. But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this.
Very sad.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell! If there was no eternal torment of Hellfire then all the evil would never be dealt with. There would be no eternal justice.
The evil in us is dealt with by the Holy Ghost in us. He makes us one with Jesus in His obedient life, one with Jesus in His death, one with Jesus in His resurrection, and one with Jesus in His ascension. He is making us into "a perfect man, unto the measue of the stature of the fulness of Christ." (Ephesians 4
13) A better or worse state in death is never described in the Bible as what Jesus came to bring us.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
People like Hitler and Stalin and that nice little old lady who does great works but denies Jesus Christ as God and only Savior would get to worship their spiritual father Satan and be allowed into Heaven?
The phase, "Go to heaven" never occurs in relation to anything in the Bible. Heaven is not our destination. Rather as I quoted earlier in this thread, heaven is our origin, where we come from, and it is our present dwelling place. We are aiming for a better resurrection. The one thing Paul says that he is doing (so you should know it is very important) is to strive to, "...attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead." (Philippians 3)
How wonderful if Hitler had been saved before He died; but, as Peter says, "For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit." (1 Peter 4
6) On the other hand, there is nothing in the Bible that says God's brace ceases once you die. Nothing there says death determines our destiny. God will continue to do whatever it takes to process people until they are purified and can continue on into the glory of God. God is the Father of Spirits. (Hebrews 12) And, He will purify all His creation until "God is all in all." (1 Corithians 15)
Jesus says, "Heaven and earth will pass away." Instead of heaven we are aiming for a better resurrection. The one thing Paul says that he is doing (so you should know it is very important) is to strive to, "...attain to the out resurrection out from among the dead." (Philippians 3) Quote the Bible for what we are to believe or no Christian should believe what you say.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
The Lord Jesus paid for all of the sins of all humans but the core issue is belief in Him alone. Don't bother getting into "Original Hebrew" and "Original Greek". I only recognize the Authorized King James Bible as God's preserved words. There are no "originals" around. They were all disintegrated.
Of course nothing in any Bible, Greek and Hebrew or King James English, ever says forget the original languages God spoke with or that the KJV is God's preserved words. You are embarassing yourself!
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
Jesus said the narrow road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, and the wide road to eternal destruction has most people on it.
He actually said everybody is entering in, either through the broad way of destruction (which is much of how I had to enter) or through the narrow and hard way. The paths and the portals are not the destination; God is.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
Most of the human race will end up burning in Hell forever and ever and ever.
Nothing in the Bible anywhere says any of that.
Find the verse to quote or you're only another blind guide, repeating the tradition of your Father. Jesus says "The field is the world; the good seed are the children of the kingdom; but the tares are the children of the wicked one." (Matthew 13
38) Jesus didn't say the widerness was the world. When you see people hoeing they aren't in the middle of the wildernes; rather, they're in a garden. Most of the field is not weeds! It's almost all good grain! You don't see most of the human race. God does, and He never in any way said either that most of them are damned or that there is anything like ceaseless torture forever anywhere for any reason.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
They will be in a state of concious, endless torment.
Naughty, naughty...no quotations again! Pitiful the total lack of Scripture to quote for something so horrible for any kind person to ever even think. Remember, God is making us in His image and likeness. That means, since He is the Master Torturer you must become one too. That is what the thought they were doing when we were burned at the stake for having Scripture in our native tongues. But the reality of becoming a Master Torturer in God's image for ever...my conscience won't allow it. Thankfully nothing like this can be quoated from the Bible record.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
I deserve this, we all deserve this. But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this.
No merit is possible for Adam in whom all die. We are not saved by faith. We are saved by grace through faith. Grace is God acting on our behalf. We cannot get him to do it. He does it because He loves us, all of us. "When we were without strength Christ died for the ungodly." When? He's the potter and we're the clay. All we can offer is an innate resistance. "The first vessel was marred under His hand." (Jeremiah) "Afterward He made a vessel according to His own good pleasure." He didn't say when. "Even as in Adam all die, so also in Christ are all made alive."
Stealing an apple when you're hungry is not stealing, it is provided for under the laws of Moses. However, if you steal a basket of apples you owe four baskets of apples, not a never ending infinity of apples. If all the sins of everybody, every weak, ignorant, sin bent, short lived human was laid on one man to pay for, he'd eventually come to the end of it.
Wait, this actually happened. It says He died and went to hell for three days. So, why do you think our payment would be for ever? Nothing says sin is infinite and cannot be paid for. Jesus did that, paid for all sin, and it was not in vain. If it was for ever then for Jesus to pay for it would mean He would have to be being tortured now and for ever. This just isn't happening. Scripture says death can no longer touch Him.
Quote from: reFORMer on July 24, 2012, 08:05:31 AM
He never in any way said either that most of them are damned or that there is anything like ceaseless torture forever anywhere for any reason... [sarcasm] Since He is the Master Torturer you must become one too.
Luke 9:54 ...Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2012, 05:08:09 AM
Very sad.
It's not theology but pure hate. Loving misery of others.
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!
I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell!
To obey the commandment upon which all the law and prophets hang means we love our neighbor as ourselves. This means you should meditate on his destiny until you gasp what it means. "As if it is you," considering ceaseless torture for ever to be your destiny, puts the picture in a different frame. While you think it's just some other guys out there you're not thinking too clearly. You really get humble and searching for mercy when your love for your neighbor puts his destiny on you, as your responsibility. What do you think the Melchisedec Priesthood is about?
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!
I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell! If there was no eternal torment of Hellfire then all the evil would never be dealt with.
Proof?
QuoteThere would be no eternal justice. People like Hitler and Stalin and that nice little old lady who does great works but denies Jesus Christ as God and only Savior would get to worship their spiritual father Satan and be allowed into Heaven?
Is that all you got?
What if Stalin repented on his death bed? Does that save him? Does that make him a good man?
QuoteThe Lord Jesus paid for all of the sins of all humans but the core issue is belief in Him alone.
What about the OT people? Did He die for their sins too? Do they have a chance to turn toward Jesus after death? Or did they just have bad luck they were born before Jesus started His Ministry?
Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.
What does that verse mean to you? Did Jesus forgive them or not? Did Father honor His request to forgive them?
Needles to say the Romans weren't the biggest believers in Jesus.....
Did Jesus just waste His breath speaking those words?
QuoteDon't bother getting into "Original Hebrew" and "Original Greek". I only recognize the Authorized King James Bible as God's preserved words.
I'm sure of that. Your doctrine ís founded on crappy translation. You are a coward that's scared of discussion. Scared of thinking. Scared of Light.
QuoteThere are no "originals" around. They were all disintegrated.
By your demonicly inspired translators.
QuoteJesus said the narrow road to eternal life is narrow and few there be that find it, and the wide road to eternal destruction has most people on it.
Serious Christians I would advise to study that word "destruction".
QuoteMost of the human race will end up burning in Hell forever and ever and ever. They will be in a state of concious, endless torment. I deserve this, we all deserve this. But thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this.
Lots of barking like the hellhound you are. But insurprisingly to cowardly to really attack. You denominatial teeth will be pulled out one by one.
Quote from: reFORMer on July 24, 2012, 08:45:15 AM
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!
I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell!
To obey the commandment upon which all the law and prophets hang means we love our neighbor as ourselves. This means you should meditate on his destiny until you gasp what it means. "As if it is you," considering ceaseless torture for ever to be your destiny, puts the picture in a different frame. While you think it's just some other guys out there you're not thinking too clearly. You really get humble and searching for mercy when your love for your neighbor puts his destiny on you, as your responsibility. What do you think the Melchisedec Priesthood is about?
Compared with Alu's sick doctrine Hitler was a good guy. He had some fun with the Jews and then killed them.
But the holy ones like Alu worship an imaginary god that takes His Son and saints for a picnick at the Lake of Fire to listens to the the sounds that glorifies them.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 24, 2012, 08:57:06 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on July 24, 2012, 08:45:15 AM
Quote from: Alumina on July 24, 2012, 04:54:06 AM
PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST FOR ETERNAL HELLFIRE!
I am elated and thankful that there is a Hell!
To obey the commandment upon which all the law and prophets hang means we love our neighbor as ourselves. This means you should meditate on his destiny until you gasp what it means. "As if it is you," considering ceaseless torture for ever to be your destiny, puts the picture in a different frame. While you think it's just some other guys out there you're not thinking too clearly. You really get humble and searching for mercy when your love for your neighbor puts his destiny on you, as your responsibility. What do you think the Melchisedec Priesthood is about?
Compared with Alu's sick doctrine Hitler was a good guy. He had some fun with the Jews and then killed them.
But the holy ones like Alu worship an imaginary god that takes His Son and saints for a picnick at the Lake of Fire to listens to the the sounds that glorifies them.
Tony, you know how I've said I know many kind, loving people who believe there's an eternal torment, not because they want to or because they like it, but they just believe that's God's way because that's what they've been taught and what they believe the Bible teaches? I remember my dad who believed in eternal hell saying to me before he passed away - with a kind, broken spirit and possibly even with a tear in his eye - "I don't want
anybody to go to hell".
This is
not one of those cases. :sorry: In fact, although I know this type of extreme, irrational view
does exist, (there are people who play with venomous snakes and think they're pleasing God, for crying out loud!), still, I wonder if this is for real, or if this is someone "pulling our leg"...
Quote from: AluminaBut thank God through His Eternal Son the Lord Jesus that each individual who believes in Him and Him alone will be saved from this
Amen!
For it is written, "AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME, AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD."
--Rom 14:11
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2012, 09:24:05 AMTony, you know how I've said I know many kind, loving people who believe there's an eternal torment, not because they want to or because they like it, but they just believe that's God's way because that's what they've been taught and what they believe the Bible teaches? I remember my dad who believed in eternal hell saying to me before he passed away - with a kind, broken spirit and possibly even with a tear in his eye - "I don't want anybody to go to hell".
Believe with all your heart.... He didn't. (that's a compliment)
Your father was wrong in his religious views but from your quote it seems he had a heart. His heart/spirit within basicly fought his doctrine/mind.
QuoteThis is not one of those cases. :sorry:
Heart of steel. Mind of a viper. Acid for blood.
QuoteIn fact, although I know this type of extreme, irrational view does exist, (there are people who play with venomous snakes and think they're pleasing God, for crying out loud!), still, I wonder if this is for real, or if this is someone "pulling our leg"...
What about pulling the plug? :talkangry:
Alu is a troll or the patients in psy ward have internet....
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2012, 05:08:09 AM
Very sad.
Agreed. This kind of thinking truly disturbs me. To negate the blood of the Cross, by saying evil has not been dealt with IN FULL is just sad. To wish eternal pain upon another human being, no matter how terrible their sin, certainly doesn't embrace the love of Christ.
I know the ET believers like to pull out Hitler everytime they want to validate their beliefs, but isn't their belief system much worse? At least the victims of the Holocaust had an end to their suffering. What they have called evil in Hitler, they have supported with gratitude on a level that makes the blast furnaces in Germany look like Disney World. They have accused God of much worse than Hitler, making our loving Heavenly Father the author of never ending torture and suffering. It's grotesque and it makes me nauseous.
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2012, 08:21:01 AM
Quote from: reFORMer on July 24, 2012, 08:05:31 AM
He never in any way said either that most of them are damned or that there is anything like ceaseless torture forever anywhere for any reason... [sarcasm] Since He is the Master Torturer you must become one too.
Luke 9:54 ...Lord, wilt thou that we command fire to come down from heaven, and consume them, even as Elias did?
55 But he turned, and rebuked them, and said, Ye know not what manner of spirit ye are of.
56 For the Son of man is not come to destroy men's lives, but to save them.
Amen!
What a good word today!
Quote from: shawn on July 24, 2012, 07:42:17 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2012, 05:08:09 AM
Very sad.
Agreed. This kind of thinking truly disturbs me. To negate the blood of the Cross, by saying evil has not been dealt with IN FULL is just sad. To wish eternal pain upon another human being, no matter how terrible their sin, certainly doesn't embrace the love of Christ.
I know the ET believers like to pull out Hitler everytime they want to validate their beliefs, but isn't their belief system much worse? At least the victims of the Holocaust had an end to their suffering. What they have called evil in Hitler, they have supported with gratitude on a level that makes the blast furnaces in Germany look like Disney World. They have accused God of much worse than Hitler, making our loving Heavenly Father the author of never ending torture and suffering. It's grotesque and it makes me nauseous.
We quite often disagree but this time
:high5:
When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,] I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.
You know what I mean. The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.
Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did? YES. He ruined the lives of millions of people.
I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.
But, he is also a God of mercy.
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:37:31 PM
When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,] I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.
You know what I mean. The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.
Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did? YES. He ruined the lives of millions of people.
I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.
But, he is also a God of mercy.
Molly, your very candid reply adding the truth that God is a God of mercy reminded me of one of the daily devotionals of Ray Prinzing that I've been invited to review... it's based on
2 Cor 5:14-15
Wuest gives a beautiful translation: For the love which Christ has for me presses on me from all sides, holding me to one end and prohibiting me from considering any other, wrapping itself around me in tenderness, giving me an impelling motive, having brought me to this conclusion, namely, that One died on behalf of all."
"This is truly being held together, when love presses on us from all sides, and holds us to one glorious viewpoint - LOVE'S VIEW, and so girds up our mind that we are prohibited from considering any other, until we become one in the truth that CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, TO GIVE LIFE TO ALL."
"Love that girds the mind until no evil thoughts ensue,
Love that covers EVERY sin, forgiveness to imbue,
Love that lasts beyond all time, negation to subdue,
Love that turns ALL loss to gain, creation to renew."
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:37:31 PM
When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,] I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.
You know what I mean. The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.
Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did? YES. He ruined the lives of millions of people.
I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.
But, he is also a God of mercy.
I certainly hope God doesn't act justly, if so I am in a heap of trouble. I prefer grace for me...my kin...my fellow man and yes even Hitler.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 24, 2012, 09:21:28 PM
Quote from: shawn on July 24, 2012, 07:42:17 PM
Quote from: jabcat on July 24, 2012, 05:08:09 AM
Very sad.
Agreed. This kind of thinking truly disturbs me. To negate the blood of the Cross, by saying evil has not been dealt with IN FULL is just sad. To wish eternal pain upon another human being, no matter how terrible their sin, certainly doesn't embrace the love of Christ.
I know the ET believers like to pull out Hitler everytime they want to validate their beliefs, but isn't their belief system much worse? At least the victims of the Holocaust had an end to their suffering. What they have called evil in Hitler, they have supported with gratitude on a level that makes the blast furnaces in Germany look like Disney World. They have accused God of much worse than Hitler, making our loving Heavenly Father the author of never ending torture and suffering. It's grotesque and it makes me nauseous.
We quite often disagree but this time
:high5:
The conclusion is the same...we just take a different path to the truth :) It's actually nice to know people as studied as yourself agree with something placed in my heart as a young child. It's wonderful to see how that works together to glorify God.
Quote from: goodreport on July 24, 2012, 10:04:27 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:37:31 PM
When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,] I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.
You know what I mean. The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.
Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did? YES. He ruined the lives of millions of people.
I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.
But, he is also a God of mercy.
Molly, your very candid reply adding the truth that God is a God of mercy reminded me of one of the daily devotionals of Ray Prinzing that I've been invited to review... it's based on
2 Cor 5:14-15
Wuest gives a beautiful translation: For the love which Christ has for me presses on me from all sides, holding me to one end and prohibiting me from considering any other, wrapping itself around me in tenderness, giving me an impelling motive, having brought me to this conclusion, namely, that One died on behalf of all."
"This is truly being held together, when love presses on us from all sides, and holds us to one glorious viewpoint - LOVE'S VIEW, and so girds up our mind that we are prohibited from considering any other, until we become one in the truth that CHRIST DIED FOR ALL, TO GIVE LIFE TO ALL."
"Love that girds the mind until no evil thoughts ensue,
Love that covers EVERY sin, forgiveness to imbue,
Love that lasts beyond all time, negation to subdue,
Love that turns ALL loss to gain, creation to renew."
That is a beautiful translation of that verse. Thank you for that, and for your whole post.
But there is a God in heaven who reveals secrets...and He who reveals secrets has made known to you what will be. Dan 2
Again, PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST that He created HELLFIRE, ETERNAL Hell, for the Devil and his fallen angels, and, all of those who refuse to trust in the LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE as God in the flesh and their only Eternal Savior are considered spiritually to be children of the DEVIL according to the LORD JESUS CHRIST!
Jesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship that the DEVIL is their spiritual father.
John 1:12 is clear: It states the ONE and ONLY condition for becoming a CHILD OF GOD: BELIEF in JESUS CHRIST. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
Here is something Biblical but revolutionary for the people here to grasp:
The eternal fire in HELL is an example of God's LOVE and MERCY. Does that sound shocking? Here is why:
NOBODY will suddenly wake up once their soul leaves their body and they realize Jesus is real and they are now in Hell. They become hardened like their spiritual father the Devil. Notice the rich man never asked to be let out of Hell, he knew it would be of no use. Notice in Revelation that even as the LORD sends plagues and judgements down upon the people who follow the Beast, they do not repent, instead they admit God is doing it and hate Him all the more and curse Him the text says. That right there destroys the ideas that claim eventually everyone will trust in Jesus. Now, imagine all of these people in Hell: Millions upon millions of unsaved haters of God and haters of the Lord Jesus Christ, all together. Nazis, murderers, rapists, thieves, you name it, and everyone in between, who died refusing the Lord Jesus as their only eternal Savior. Do you know what they would do to each other? Then you add all of the fallen angels and devils and demons in that lot.
They would attack and eternally vex each other. It would be horrific! The fire in Hell is actually a merciful act sent by God to keep them from attacking and enslaving and shredding each other. It is like an eternal quarantine. Parents think about it like this: If your child who you love was targetted by a man who was infected with a deadly disease and his goal was to infect and destroy your child, would you not do everything within your power to keep that person away from your child? That is how God views the hardened unsaved person who refuses to trust in Jesus Christ: He or she is a walking heap of death and if allowed that death would spread. THE ONLY CURE is JESUS, faith alone in HIM ALONE. Then we are cleansed and justified forever.
Regarding the Bible verse about every knee shall bow and every toungue will confess. YES. That is true. But most of those people will do it before the Lord throws them into HELLFIRE to burn forever. That is a scene from the Great White Throne Judgement which is for unsaved people only.
If you have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ as God the Eternal Messiah Savior alone for eternal life, not faith plus anything else, then praise God, you do not have to fear Hell. Hell is to be feared for the UNSAVED> Jesus said do not fear he who can kill the body but HE, God, who can destroy (torment forever) BOTH body AND soul in HELL.
Why do you mute and water down the warnings of Jesus to the LOST?
By the way, I love you people here in this forum. I thank you and appreciate the opportunity to have discussions with you.
To any sensitive born again Christians here: Please do not misunderstand me. I love you as my fellow family in the Lord Jesus. I understand that this world and life is full of sorrow, pain, and bad things. Know this: If you have trusted in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as your only Savior, Jesus is there for you. HE loves you precious child of God. Never ever fear HELL if you are a saved person.
To those people here who refuse to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as your only Savior, plus NOTHING ELSE (Not Jesus plus water baptism or good works etc), you need to turn to Jesus now and be saved before you end up burning in Hellfire forever.
For those of you who say "The Greek words prove me out". No. The Greek words used for the eternality of torment in Hell are the same words for the eternality of God and the everlasting life of the saved born again believer.
Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life? Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that? This person told me he hates Jesus and he hates Christians and I asked him what would he do even if he directly stood before the Lord Jesus Christ, he told me he would curse Jesus and hate him and go to Hell. Do you honestly think a man like this who hates all of you and myself and our Lord Jesus on this forum would ever "wake up" and say "okay okay now I believe"?
There is only one thing I would like to say to that:
Does their unbelief nullify the faithfulness of God?
Alumina, you said...
"Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life? Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that? This person told me he hates Jesus and he hates Christians and I asked him what would he do even if he directly stood before the Lord Jesus Christ, he told me he would curse Jesus and hate him and go to Hell. Do you honestly think a man like this who hates all of you and myself and our Lord Jesus on this forum would ever "wake up" and say "okay okay now I believe"?"
Short answer... yes
I would say the same that Jesus said from the cross "Father forgive them for they do not know what they do (or say)"
This person is living in a lot of hurt.... But when the light of His love shines on his soul, his heart of stone will also turn to flesh.... and he will finally know how loved he truely he is.
Quote from: Alumina on August 06, 2012, 01:20:47 AMFor those of you who say "The Greek words prove me out". No. The Greek words used for the eternality of torment in Hell are the same words for the eternality of God and the everlasting life of the saved born again believer.
It only seems that way to people who have no clue what that passage is about...
Alumina what would you imagine Jesus would do to that man? Fry him? Torture him? Spit in his face? No. Possibly weep over him. Love him to pieces. Our Lord loves the "unlovable". He IS love. I can guarantee you that atheist does not hate God, he hates what the church has portrayed as the character of God - a cruel and unjust vindictive merciless tyrant. Praise God for His true plan and His true nature - universal reconciliation to Love, when God will be all in ALL. Blessings to you dear one. <3
Clearly Alumina hasn't read the posts we left for him since he's last been here. Glance at no more than one or two, and certainly not read even them. He alludes to having a "conversation" with us. I don't think he is complying with what it means to have a conversation. Maybe I'm too grumpy, but somewhere Proverbs says, "A fool delights in only hearing his own opinion."
So many aren't properly taught the basics of Biblical Christianity, the foundations of a spiritual life, or even good manners. Otherwise they'd realize that our opinions about the future, either near at hand or distant future, do not altogether determine if we have a relationship with God. It affects that relationship and, colors it. Nevertheless, at some point not much more progress can be made without submission to the Spirit of Truth.
Quote from: Alumina on August 06, 2012, 01:20:47 AM
Think about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life?
If you search internet you find testemonies of atheists, muslims, etc who converted to Christianity for some reason (vision, study, etc).
Do you believe it's possible they have become genuine Christians? If so does that possiblity stop at death?
QuoteRecently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that?
Blinded just like you are. You must keep in mind it's your hellish doctrine (among other things) that caused so many turn away from God.
QuoteThis person told me he hates Jesus and he hates Christians and I asked him what would he do even if he directly stood before the Lord Jesus Christ, he told me he would curse Jesus and hate him and go to Hell. Do you honestly think a man like this who hates all of you and myself and our Lord Jesus on this forum would ever "wake up" and say "okay okay now I believe"?
Yes.
It's simple. Many don't believe in religion, Christianity or otherwise, because they can't find scientific proof for God. But who needs proof if they meet God face to face?
That goes beyond believing. Then it's simply called "knowing".
Quote from: Alumina on August 06, 2012, 01:20:47 AM
QuoteJesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship that the DEVIL is their spiritual father.
What did Jesus say to Peter.....?
Mat 16:23 Jesus turned and said to Peter, "Get behind me, Satan! You are a stumbling block to me; you do not have in mind the things of God, but the things of men."
QuoteNotice the rich man never asked to be let out of Hell, he knew it would be of no use.
Notice that is a parable. It isn't about hell at all. It's about Jews and Gentiles. Gentiles having the water. Water = spiritual insight.
QuoteNotice in Revelation that even as the LORD sends plagues and judgements down upon the people who follow the Beast, they do not repent, instead they admit God is doing it and hate Him all the more and curse Him the text says.
What about the people that died long before that event? What about people who died before Jesus was born? Etc
QuoteRegarding the Bible verse about every knee shall bow and every toungue will confess. YES. That is true. But most of those people will do it before the Lord throws them into HELLFIRE to burn forever. That is a scene from the Great White Throne Judgement which is for unsaved people only.
God breaks His promise?
Romans 10:9 that if thou will confess with thy mouth, Lord Jesus, and will believe in thy heart that God raised him from the dead, thou will be saved.
QuoteWhy do you mute and water down the warnings of Jesus to the LOST?
Why do you ridicule the Bible and twist it into a book of hate and retribution?
QuoteBy the way, I love you people here in this forum.
Really? Should you keep us away from your children and set up afire as an act of mercey?
This guy can't be for real. I suspect a UR guy playing a role as a teaching point. I can't believe a reasonable human being would make the points I am reading above. Hellfire is merciful? To keep the unsaved from "ripping each other apart"? Seriously? So instead of "vexing" each other they burn? These doctrines turn my stomach. I mean what Bible verses support this nonsense of merciful hellfire?
QuoteThis guy can't be for real.
Could be. But then Jabcat and Gary are part of that test too.
Could be role playing. But I'm sure there are people that seriously mean such nonsense.
I call it getting God of the hook.
God is the good guy. That means hell must be good also.
Yeah, we've had some discussions as to how long to let this play out. Sometimes these are useful for awhile, get some good responses, but at some point....
if there is only one thing I have come to understand, it is this:
The spirit of pride will not allow a person to admit they are wrong
Alumina wrote:
QuoteThink about this: If someone will never accept Jesus as their Savior in this one life (Hebrews 9:27), what makes you think they would in the next life? Recently I was cursed out by a hate-filled atheist who cursed the Lord Jesus to me and told me he would NEVER in any way bow before Jesus and accept Jesus as his Savior. What do you make of someone like that?
I used to laugh at all religious folk because I believed all gods were extra-terrestrials. That very belief system was broken one morning without me even asking for it. I was living life in peace without a care in the world. So, if God can seek me out in an instant act of breaking down my former barriers in the space of a few hours, then I'm sure (and hopeful) that He can work on everyone else.
Otherwise, doesn't that make God lazy and a respector of persons (those saved only), which the Bible says he is not? (Acts 10:34).
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 10:04:05 AM
if there is only one thing I have come to understand, it is this:
The spirit of pride will not allow a person to admit they are wrong
True. But some people are so brainwashed, blinded, etc that they really can't see it otherwise. Likely many are also very scared to even study an alternative because every path not being their own leads to hell.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 10, 2012, 03:59:01 AM
Quote from: jugghead on August 07, 2012, 10:04:05 AM
if there is only one thing I have come to understand, it is this:
The spirit of pride will not allow a person to admit they are wrong
True. But some people are so brainwashed, blinded, etc that they really can't see it otherwise. Likely many are also very scared to even study an alternative because every path not being their own leads to hell.
If that is not truth, I do not know what is, it was that blindness and fear that I was saved from
Quote from: Alumina on August 06, 2012, 01:20:47 AM
Again, PRAISE THE LORD JESUS CHRIST that He created HELLFIRE, ETERNAL Hell, for the Devil and his fallen angels, and, all of those who refuse to trust in the LORD JESUS CHRIST ALONE as God in the flesh and their only Eternal Savior are considered spiritually to be children of the DEVIL according to the LORD JESUS CHRIST! b]The devil is the carnal mind. We are all from God. Who else made us? Sorry but what you said sounds sick. I'm shocked. I pray God will show you the love He has. I pray God will show you the truth. Seek the LORD on these following questions and ask these questions within your own heart yourself also:
Do your children deserve to be endlessly tortured by you, the parent? (no matter how disobedient your children are)
If not, then why do you believe you yourself deserves to be endlessly tortured by GOD our Father?
If so, then what is the purpose of having children in the first place?[/color]
Jesus told the Jewish leaders who rejected His Messiahship that the DEVIL is their spiritual father.
John 1:12 is clear: It states the ONE and ONLY condition for becoming a CHILD OF GOD: BELIEF in JESUS CHRIST. But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name
Here is something Biblical but revolutionary for the people here to grasp:
The eternal fire in HELL is an example of God's LOVE and MERCY. Erm...Nope. That is some sort of bribery. the turn or burn thing, that isn't true love, it's false love. A true father would look after HIS children. He would not want His children to suffer forever. God is full of love.
To those people here who refuse to believe in the Lord Jesus Christ alone as your only Savior, plus NOTHING ELSE (Not Jesus plus water baptism or good works etc), you need to turn to Jesus now and be saved before you end up burning in Hellfire forever.
Nope, I'm fine without christianity. I'm better off not being a christian because of the damage it does to people. This hellfire stuff has made me so depressed before. Christianity isn't number one. And another thing to think about. Why are there so many near death experiences heavenly? From what I have read about 100 experiences and more and most of them were heavenly.
[/size][/b]
For those of you who say "The Greek words prove me out". No. The Greek words used for the eternality of torment in Hell are the same words for the eternality of God and the everlasting life of the saved born again believer. I would rather prove there isn't eternal hell with NDEs. Most of the ones I have read from people are heavenly. And also, truly pray to God. I have, He has shown me the truth.
It is not just a matter of being saved from sin, it is a matter of being saved from our ignorance (the lack of understanding) of love, of God; for GOD IS LOVE.
I think that ignorance if part of the sin.
ET is a hardened heart.
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:37:31 PM
When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,] I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.
You know what I mean. The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.
Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did? YES. He ruined the lives of millions of people.
I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.
But, he is also a God of mercy.
Yes evil men as those defined by God, not man, are those who will suffer Gods vengeance for all their ungodly deeds and ungodly speeches.
Vengeance is mine sayeth the Lord.
Not one shall escape, fear the Lord and embrace his mercy who knows if he will repent of the evil he shall send.
Quote from: Molly on July 24, 2012, 09:37:31 PM
When I first started looking at UR [on this board, because I had never thought about it before,] I was kind of horrified that I might end up with Hitler as a bunk mate--so to speak.
You know what I mean. The first thought is that the curtain goes down, all are saved, it was just a play, all those tears, all that suffering, and afterwards, we all go to the actors party and shake hands.
Do I want Hitler to suffer for what he did? YES. He ruined the lives of millions of people.
I know that God is a God of justice and that he will act justly towards Hitler, as he does towards all of us.
But, he is also a God of mercy.
Our world has, in fact, been called "The Theater of the Universe," a place where good and evil interact for the education of the whole created cosmos. Shakespeare concurs: "All the world's a stage, and we are but actors upon it." Hitler, Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot, all those guys are only guilty of sins common to all men, and if we think it's a numbers game, Jesus reminded us that if we hate our brother, we are murderers too. If you ever have Hitler as a bunkmate, he will have been rehabilitated, and his sins paid for and forgotten.
Do not despise them, for we all must give an account to our Creator.
you know,when I was 17 I stumbled over the Christ rock in the matter of Hitler,too. that is how Christ is the stumbling stone..through forgiveness and grace
. we want to judge by degree's..and dispense grace on merit. But God in His Great Wisdom made a blanket judgement of
sin in the flesh conde3mned...condemned in all men...Free gift of eternal life through Grace of God in Christ...
He did this so no-one could boast in the flesh....pointing the finger at your brother 'he sinned worse than me"
People tend to underestimate what the free gift of righteousness and eternal life in Christ is..or what it means.......that you will see nothing but Christ in them
for that is what they will be..in Christ's exact image and likeness...one with him aqnd God.
loved your post Lazarus
Quote from: Lazarus Short on September 14, 2012, 01:34:00 AM
Shakespeare: "All the world's a stage, and we are but actors upon it."
What God wrote was a comedy; but, we play it as a tragedy."
(from Garrison Kieler)
You got that all wrong Ref :winkgrin:
God was serious about salvation but church turned it into Dante's divine comedy :laughing7:
We (mankind) are saved from our ignorance (lack of understanding) by the free gift of understanding
We (mankind) are saved from the penalty of sin (death; separation from the Father and others) by the free gift of forgiveness
We (mankind) are saved from sin, (sinning against the Father and sinning against others) by both of these free gifts combined, <b>UNDERSTANDING FORGIVENESS</b>
Through our participation in understanding forgiveness (the word forgiveness becomes flesh) and then the flesh participates in forgiving others, we become a living sacrifice, bringing life (forgiveness) to others.
The stumbling block of all unbelievers is the forgiveness of all sinners
Quote from: sheila on September 18, 2012, 03:49:09 AM
that is how Christ is the stumbling stone..through forgiveness and grace
"And blessed is the one who is not offended by me."
Awesome. :HeartThrob:
jugghead...you just poured out the living water like Elijah did. a living sacrifice acceptable to God. the love of the greater number
cooled because of the increasing of lawlessness[sins] the pateint endurance of the saints.....
the camp of the Holy city is surrounded by those led/deceived of satan[accusor] to fight against the free gift of eternal life.
you see christians jews and muslims clinging to self-righteousness of flesh..killing one another and thinking they are doing
God a service..... but....God is in the camp as the free gift of life through Grace.
Jesus noted this [knowing what was in man/sin that causes him to fall short at all times of the Glory of God] and said....
beware that ye not devour one another...and also this However when the son of man comes,will He find faith on earth?
now many cry out to Him for justice against my adversary....and we know that we fight not against flesh and blood..
and that the adversary is satan. and this is the justice of God....that Jesus Christ rebuked Satan and caused his fall from heaven
and shortly will go into eternal cutting off[as the one who raises the temple of the Lord..you know no tool[satan] is used
in the final assembly...for trees of self righteousness are cut down before hand,and trees of righteousness through Christ
are prepared before hand,and lively stones of grace are cut out not by human hands
[Luke 19;38-40] I tell you if they keep quiet the stones will cry out] Blessed is the King who comes in the Name of the Lord!
PEACE in HEAVEN AND GLORY IN THE HIGHEST!
IF YOU,EVEN YOU HAD ONLY KNOWN ON THIS DAY WHAT WOULD HAVE BROUGHT YOU PEACE- BUT NOW IT IS HIDDEN FROM YOUR EYES
THE DAYS WILL COME UPON YOU WHEN YOUR ENEMIES WILL COME UPON YOU WHEN YOUR ENEMIES WILL BUILD AN EMBANKMENT
AGAINST YOU AND WILL ENCIRCLE YOU AND HEM YOU IN ON EVERY SIDE. THEY WILL DASH YOU TO THE GROUND
YOU AND THE CHILDREN WITHIN YOUR WALLS. THEY WILL NOT LEAVE ONE STONE ON ANOTHER
BECAUSE YOU DID NOT RECOGNIZE THE TIME OF GOD'S COMING TO YOU[AS FREE GIFT OF GRACE AND FORGIVENESS]