what opened my eyes to the spiritual failings of Judaism

[Yeshua-Song]

i was sitting one day at the Western Wall plaza in Jerusalem. as i gazed at this monolithic structure, i thought i saw the blood of Jesus splashed across its stones. this horrified me. this occurred about nine years ago, and since then i have learned much more about how the Wall came to be built. Herod was its architect, and even though he was an evil man and a usurper of David's throne, both the sadduccees and pharisees were essentially bribed to be silent with his "gift" of the redesigned Temple.

check out this article by Israeli Jewish convert to Orthodox Christianity, Israel Shamir:
http://www.israelshamir.net/English/wall.htm

here are some ideas i set out to challenge a former Four Square Christian pastor who converted to Orthodox Judaism:

Dear ____,

1. in the Bible there are two kinds of stone: one is a rock of faith and fortitude, the other is a stumbling block of satan. we know from leviticus that placing a stumbling block in front of the blind (which can be literal or metaphorical for giving bad advice and such) is a horrible sin.

2. When Jesus called Simon "Peter" and referred to him as a rock, He was alluding to the rock and fortress of faith. But immediately afterward when He said get away from me satan, He was alluding to the other kind of rock, a stumbling block.

3. A rock can also be praised as a cornerstone or rosh pina, as in Psalm 118: The stone the builders rejected has become the head of the corner!

4. It seems clear to me that Jesus and the Western Wall are diametrically opposed. Jesus tore down the wall of partition between Jew and Gentile, and the Jews try to resurrect it. Jesus discarded narrow Jewish dreams of  tribal nationalism and triumph and replaced them with a salvific outreach to all of humanity, but the Jews also repudiate that.

5. When I look at the Kotel I also see lots of little stones frantically asembled together to build a wall of partition between God and man. I see a sad and pathetic effort to build a kind of spiritual tower of babel. i see blood stained stones from the evil legacy both of Herod and of the Sanhedrin that condemned Jesus to death illegally.

6. When more Jews like me recognize these ideas, they also will realize that Tisha Be'Av when this place of wickedness was torn down (by admittedly evil agents in the Roman army), is perhaps the greatest day of joy in the Jewish calendar. Tisha Be'av should be seen as a symbol of the birth of a new era, the Age of Messiah. Just as when a woman gives birth she heaves in pain, she bleeds and loses water, and she suffers greatly, but in the end a beautiful child is born, so too the horrible destruction of Tisha BeAv marks the birth of a new and infinitely greater era.

7. it also fulfills Jesus' explicit prophecies about the doom of Jerusalem. And finally it proves that Isaiah 53 does apply to both Israel and to her Messiah, for just as the leaders of Israel mocked Jesus and handed Him over to a cruel death, so too measure for measure the Romans mocked Israel and measured out to them a very cruel and sordid death on the Ninth of Av. And some rabbis have remarked that Isaiah 53 promises that whoever does not accept the vicarious atonement of Messiah will have to undergo such sufferings himself.

8. on a deeper level, in Yiddish Nine = Nein = No. And Av = Father and alludes to God. So we might say that the destruction of Jerusalem on the Ninth of Av is a direct consequence of the fact that the leaders of Israel said "No" to God the Father by killing His Son, and then they reaped the wretched harvest of the bitter seeds of disbelief they sowed into the hearts of the Jewish nation and they drank deeply from the cup of His wrath.

9. finally consider this: while Jesus gave up His life as a ransom for the many, the Pharisees saved their lives at the expense of everyone else! remember the shocking story in Gittin about how Yochanan ben Zakai traded away the entire city of Jerusalem for the lives of his friends in the Sanhedrin? you cannot find a starker example of the kind of false shepherd that Jesus excoriated, warning that they would abandon their flocks to save their own skins, and this is precisely what the Sanhedrin did! why would you entrust either your temporal or eternal fate into the hands of such evil, selfish, and small-minded persons? (but remember from Bilaam that God allows us to walk down the path we choose, even if it leads to destruction.)

I do appeciate your willingness to consider these ideas, even as I pray for the love of Christ that surpasses all understanding to penetrate the stony recesses of your heart that has been hardened by Jewish arrogance, pride, conceit, and deceit, all perfectly epitomized in the evil idol-wall of Herod.

If you cannot venerate Jesus, at least try to stop venerating Herod. When you turn from evil, then God will show mercy to you and expand the channels of your heart and remove the blinders from your eyes to look upon the One who was pierced and to weep deeply for youself and for all humanity.

[Cardinal]

2. When Jesus called Simon "Peter" and referred to him as a rock, He was alluding to the rock and fortress of faith. But immediately afterward when He said get away from me satan, He was alluding to the other kind of rock, a stumbling block.

6. When more Jews like me recognize these ideas, they also will realize that Tisha Be'Av when this place of wickedness was torn down (by admittedly evil agents in the Roman army), is perhaps the greatest day of joy in the Jewish calendar. Tisha Be'av should be seen as a symbol of the birth of a new era, the Age of Messiah. Just as when a woman gives birth she heaves in pain, she bleeds and loses water, and she suffers greatly, but in the end a beautiful child is born, so too the horrible destruction of Tisha BeAv marks the birth of a new and infinitely greater era.

:cloud9: It was all good but I found these 2 paragraphs hit a chord with me the most.In the first, I was reminded that the wheat and the tares are raised up together. Jesus speaking what He heard His Father speak about Peter's revelation, was the water of the Spirit. Once the water was received, both the wheat (Peter's confession) and the tares (Peter speaking what the tare wanted) were raised up together.

In the second paragraph what came to mind was this; this is He that came by the water and the blood. He was as a mother (nature of El Shaddai revealed when He said He wanted to gather them up in Jerusalem as hen doth her chicks) birthing a child into the Kingdom on that cross that was like labor, as the spear went in and pierced His heart/rended the bag of waters/veil. Blessings....

[Raggedy Anne]

Yeshua-Song,

Thank you for posting this fascinating vantage point.    I have often wondered about that wall.   I do think the blood of Christ is on all of our hands because of our sins.   And isn't it good of God to turn blood into something blessed and beautiful.

Grace and peace to you -
Anne

[Yeshua-Song]

Yeshua-Song,

Thank you for posting this fascinating vantage point.    I have often wondered about that wall.   I do think the blood of Christ is on all of our hands because of our sins.   And isn't it good of God to turn blood into something blessed and beautiful.

Grace and peace to you -
Anne

Thanks and you too Anne!

What started me thinking about this again nine years after sitting at the Wall was a History Channel show about Herod the "Great". According to this show, Herod was a brilliant politician and master builder. But he also was an Edomite, a fake convert to Judaism, and worst of all he murdered his own wives and sons, along with thousands of ordinary people.

The Western Wall today is the remnant of the retaining wall built by Herod's son, the one who reigned at the time of Jesus. This same Herod killed John the Baptist.

It just strikes me as so tragic and ironic that Jews today revere that wall built by an edomite usurper of David's throne even as they revile Jesus, David's true successor. So so tragic....

even Jews who  hate Jesus should be sensitive enough to recognize the evil in Herod and not to want to worship at the monument he erected.

i wonder what would happen if i would carry a poster into the Western Wall plaza saying in Hebrew:

Jewish Brethren,

Don't worship at the wall built by the depraved psychopathic murderer Herod!
Worship instead the Lamb of God who is not confined to any particular place.
Learn from Him how to worship God in spirit and in truth!
Amen!

[Yeshua-Song]

Jewish Brethren,

Don't worship at the wall built by the depraved psychopathic murderer Herod!
Worship instead the Lamb of God who is not confined to any particular place.
Learn from Him how to worship God in spirit and in truth!
Amen!

אחי היהודים!

אל תתנו כבוד לכותל שנבנה על ידי יהודי מזויף רוצח ומשוגע האדומי הורודוס!

אלא תן כבוד לשה האלוהים ישוע מנצרת ותלמד ממנו איך לעבוד את יהוה אבינו שבשמים ברוח ובאמת!

[/color][/b][/size][/size][/b][/color]

[Molly]

Herod's Temple in Jerusalem was a massive expansion of the Temple Mount platform and major expansion of the Jewish Temple by King Herod the Great around 19 BCE. The expansion is believed to have replaced the Second Temple building; religious worship and temple rituals continued during the construction process.[1]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herod's_Temple



I think you might be right.  Herod's temple is technically the third temple.   :mshock:

Is that meaningful?



The Second Temple (Hebrew: בית המקדש‎, romanized: Beit HaMikdash meaning The Temple House or The Holy House) was the reconstructed Temple in Jerusalem which stood between 516 BCE and 70 CE. During this time, it was the center of Jewish worship, which focused on the sacrifices known as the korbanot. Solomon's Temple, also known as the First Temple, was destroyed in 586 BCE when the Jews were exiled into Babylonian Captivity. Construction of a new temple was begun in 535; after a hiatus, work resumed ca. 521, with completion occurring in 516 and dedication in 515. As described in the Book of Ezra, rebuilding of the Temple was authorized by Cyrus the Great and ratified by Darius the Great, both leaders of the Persian Empire; it was completed on the 3rd of Adar.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Second_Temple


1)Solomon's Temple
2)Rebuilt after the exile in the Book of Ezra
3)Herod's Temple--expansion and replacement

All built in the same spot?

[Raggedy Anne]

Thanks and you too Anne!

What started me thinking about this again nine years after sitting at the Wall was a History Channel show about Herod the "Great". According to this show, Herod was a brilliant politician and master builder. But he also was an Edomite, a fake convert to Judaism, and worst of all he murdered his own wives and sons, along with thousands of ordinary people.

The Western Wall today is the remnant of the retaining wall built by Herod's son, the one who reigned at the time of Jesus. This same Herod killed John the Baptist.

It just strikes me as so tragic and ironic that Jews today revere that wall built by an edomite usurper of David's throne even as they revile Jesus, David's true successor. So so tragic....

even Jews who  hate Jesus should be sensitive enough to recognize the evil in Herod and not to want to worship at the monument he erected.

i wonder what would happen if i would carry a poster into the Western Wall plaza saying in Hebrew:

Jewish Brethren,

Don't worship at the wall built by the depraved psychopathic murderer Herod!
Worship instead the Lamb of God who is not confined to any particular place.
Learn from Him how to worship God in spirit and in truth!
Amen!

Yeshua-Song,
You might find yourself stoned, like Stephen, if you were to rile the very religious Jewish people.   
I assume you are talking about the same Herod who served John the Baptist's head on a platter?  Ugh!  That is a disturbing image.

Do you think men like Herod will be saved?  I'm not sure if you are a believer in UR.   There are some days when I question my belief in UR because of the depth of cruelty and depravity in this world.  And the truth is, if I learned that God could not save every person, I'm not sure I would even care so long as I knew that eternal torment of the wicked is untrue.  It would not bother me for wicked entities to be utterly destroyed by God. 

Peace -
Anne

[Yeshua-Song]

Yeshua-Song,
You might find yourself stoned, like Stephen, if you were to rile the very religious Jewish people.    
I assume you are talking about the same Herod who served John the Baptist's head on a platter?  Ugh!  That is a disturbing image.

no actually believe it or not it is a different herod. herod the great was the one who murdered his wives and children along with thousands of others and the infants in bethlehem. he also started rebuilding the Jewish Temple.

his son herod antipas was the one who killed John the Baptist. he completed building the Temple as well in 64 BC, just six years before the romans destroyed it forever!

Do you think men like Herod will be saved?  I'm not sure if you are a believer in UR.   There are some days when I question my belief in UR because of the depth of cruelty and depravity in this world.  And the truth is, if I learned that God could not save every person, I'm not sure I would even care so long as I knew that eternal torment of the wicked is untrue.  It would not bother me for wicked entities to be utterly destroyed by God.

that's a really good question. if i think about it rationally, herod did all of us a favor by helping to condemn Jesus to death so He could become the all sufficient sacrifice. he also probably was mentally ill. no doubt his life was a kind of living hell on earth. he also was a great builder.

so the question is: if God asked me whether Herod should be able to enjoy heaven, what would I say?

i need to ponder that one...

... now that i have pondered it for ten minutes, i think my answer would be:

LORD, i know that in my own way i have killed wives and children and done many evil things. [I have been divorced with children that I do not have any contact with.] I do not want to play sin one downmanship with Herod. I would like to ask for your mercy on all sinners, chief of all me. AMEN

[jabcat]

Yeah, what made Herod be "Herod", will no longer exist.  Everything in him that isn't righteous will be gone, burned as wood, hay, and stubble.  Although he will probably have a lot it to burn!  However, I see it in the vein of "vessels of honor and dishonor", all serving God's purpose until He takes care of it and fixes it all.  :thumbsup:

[Barry DuPont]

Very interesting thread!

It is my understanding that the "wailing wall" is the remnants of the Roman Fort which the Romans left standing and not the temple wall which not one stone was left upon another.

Blessings Barry

[Molly]

Yeah, what made Herod be "Herod", will no longer exist.  Everything in him that isn't righteous will be gone, burned as wood, hay, and stubble.  Although he will probably have a lot it to burn!  However, I see it in the vein of "vessels of honor and dishonor", all serving God's purpose until He takes care of it and fixes it all.  :thumbsup:

The question is why can't people tell the difference, except sometimes in hindsight which is 20/20.

[jabcat]

Yeah, what made Herod be "Herod", will no longer exist.  Everything in him that isn't righteous will be gone, burned as wood, hay, and stubble.  Although he will probably have a lot it to burn!  However, I see it in the vein of "vessels of honor and dishonor", all serving God's purpose until He takes care of it and fixes it all.  :thumbsup:

The question is why can't people tell the difference, except sometimes in hindsight which is 20/20.

Again, different people see this different ways, i.e., how much of our own choice is involved, how much does God have to do with it vs. it's all us making our own ways/mess/whatever...

I personally see it in view of many such scriptures, of which are a few below

in summary, we all have a role to play, it's God's plan, He's going to fix it.  We all see a little bit, some more than others, some a lot...some almost completely blind.  We're told to watch, be aware, on guard, etc., and I believe that means with whatever amount of ability/opportunity each has been given.  

A few of the scriptures;

Jesus answered them, "To you it has been granted to know the mysteries of the kingdom of heaven, but to them it has not been granted.
Mat. 13:11

Take ye heed, watch and pray: for ye know not when the time is.
Watch ye therefore: for ye know not when the master of the house cometh, at even, or at midnight, or at the cockcrowing, or in the morning: Lest coming suddenly he find you sleeping.
And what I say unto you I say unto all, Watch.
— Mark 13:32-37 KJV

...watch yourself, or you also may be tempted. (Gal 6:1)
Be very careful, then, how you live -- not as unwise but as wise," (Eph 5:15)
Watch out for those dogs, those men who do evil, those mutilators of the flesh. (Phil 3:2)

For through the grace given to me I say to everyone among you not to think more highly of himself than he ought to think; but to think so as to have sound judgment, as God has allotted to each a measure of faith.  Romans 12:3

On the other hand,

They have not known nor understood: for he hath shut their eyes, that they cannot see; and their hearts, that they cannot understand.  Isaiah 44:18

But their minds were blinded: for until this day remaineth the same vail untaken away in the reading of the old testament; which vail is done away in Christ.  2 Cor. 3:14

and in Rev., for those with eyes to see and ears to hear, etc.   So some must not...

I'm sure this could be developed further, but for a quick response and for further discussion, here it be for my  :2c:.  :bigGrin: