Last night, I was sleeping and I saw a grey lake, with grey water and grey shores and grey sky. Eveything was grey, the color of ash. I felt that God was displeased with me and suddenly, I was overcome with great fear, tossing and turning and trembling in my sleep, half-conscious and I cried out to God. And I cried in my mind: "Not the shores, not the sea! Not like this! Not sin! Not the wrath! Please God, help me!" I'm not really sure what was that place of greyness and grey water, but I didn't want to go there. I knew that If I ended up there, I would feel separated from God. Not forever, but for a really long time and undergo some kind of punishment. Was that Hades I saw?
Revalation 20:13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done.
I woke up with my heart racing, scared to death and trembling. :mshock: I got out of bed and throwed myself face down on the floor and lied prostrate, swearing that I would quit smoking, that I would never lie to my mother again, that I would never become obssess with studying UR material at the cost of neglecting my prayer life and relationship with God ever again. I reached out to God and told Him that I didn't want to be terrified of Him, that I wanted to love Him and be loved of Him and be at peace with Him and myself. My fear suddenly disappeared as I was filled with comfort and love to overflow. :HeartThrob: When I woke up this morning, I tried to undestand what the "hell" happened last night, when the phone rang. My mom and my sis are constantly fighting with each other and they try to involve me in their quarrels. That, coupled with what happened last night made me feel depressed. I thought: "This is just too much, Lord. Why can't they just solve their conflict and leave me out of it? What is it exactly that you want from me? I'm not an enabler." If only they could just stop fighting... :sigh:
I thought about it all day, but I'm not sure I understand. Is it possible that God was correcting me to spare me future corrections? Can someone please explain to me what the "hell" happened last night??? :dontknow:
Michelle.
It's hard to say but I will certainly venture a guess. I know God can come to us in our dreams. But, I believe more often than not our dreams are our subconscience working out unresolved anxieties. Gray is neither black or white...it's the depressing uncertainty. I truly believe your natural mind is fighting with your spiritual being for control. I believe God wants to reveal his true nature to you but history, the teachings and abuses of man have you bound. It's keeping you from experiencing his fullness.
God is not a bully, nor is he an ogre. Does he correct? Certainly. But, it's to steer you, to shape you in order to bring you closer...not to seperate you. I believe your image of God is still greatly distorted and that is going to take some healing that only God can bring into your life. A healthy fear of God is a good thing, but when that healthy fear turns into a chronic anxiety that leads to trying to stave off God's fury...you end up with a relationship with the law.
Michelle, God loves you deeply. He isn't out to get you. He isn't hiding behind the bushes hoping to catch you doing something wrong so he can slap your hands. You are beautifully and wonderfully made in HIS image...a child of the living God. We are to experience freedom, not another form of prison. Be more God conscious than sins conscious. Abide in relationship knowing you are accepted just the way you are...and find your rest.
Good answer Shawn. I can't add a thing, other than something I said a little bit ago; "take my yoke upon you and learn of me. For I am meek and lowly, and my burden is light." - Yashua
Interesting vision, could mean many different things, but it seems you have described the vision you have seen by your own words, that your spirit knows what it means, but your brain does not.
Your words are found within the bible
Luke 21:26
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
It sounds like you had a vision of the great tribulation, or the day of the lord, when his wrath is poured out. You also mention wrath in your words, the bible says. The grey ash you describe might be some kind of nuclear destruction or supernatural powers of great destruction such as a meteor, that is made of chemicals. Also notice that you mentioned it is temporary, punishement, which the bible also details and says that chastizement is for a season.
Jeremiah 23:15
Therefore thus saith the Lord of hosts concerning the prophets; Behold, I will feed them with wormwood, and make them drink the water of gall: for from the prophets of Jerusalem is profaneness gone forth into all the land.
Revelation 8:11
And the name of the star is called Wormwood: and the third part of the waters became wormwood; and many men died of the waters, because they were made bitter.
Perhaps the phone call was connected to the dream. Maybe the message is that if christian denominations continue to fight each other, they would be cast into great tribulation
Revelation 2:22
Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.
It might refer also to mystery babylon, that the harlot will be judged, the mother and her daughters in this great tribulation.
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come.
Your vision may not be connected to your own personal place in this, but may be a general viewpoint of the future. But God wants us all to avoid his wrath, by keeping watch and making sure the thief does not break in unexpectingly and find us sleeping.
Hi Michele grey usually represents things that are not as of yet clear
With all of us ,we don't see totally clear but it is coming.so as the old mixes with the new and as we try in our own strength to figure it out it can leave us disapponted.
Don't be discouraged for the father is revealing his truth to you
Blessings
"Your words are found within the bible
Luke 21:26
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
It sounds like you had a vision of the great tribulation, or the day of the lord, when his wrath is poured out. You also mention wrath in your words, the bible says..."
Really not helping... :mshock:
"The grey ash you describe might be some kind of nuclear destruction or supernatural powers of great destruction such as a meteor, that is made of chemicals."
Everything was ashy grey, there was no actual ash...
"Also notice that you mentioned it is temporary, punishement, which the bible also details and says that chastizement is for a season."
Yes, that vision or dream or whatever it was didn't shatter my conviction that the punishment was temporary. In fact, if I look on the bright side, I realize that that vision or whatever it was strenghtened my conviction that the punishment was temporary. If it wasn't certainty to me before, it is now, because I felt it as fact, as certainty and the Holy Spirit bore witness with my spirit. Another thing that I don't understand is why God doesn't reveal this to all the ETs so they can just stop causing so much damage to themselves and others...
"Perhaps the phone call was connected to the dream. Maybe the message is that if christian denominations continue to fight each other, they would be cast into great tribulation..."
It's not that simple, Thinktank. People have different beliefs and they are convinced that if they go against their personal beliefs or get along with people who have different beliefs, they will get in serious trouble with God. I will give you an example and don't think that I'm being criticizing other denominations here, I'm merely stating facts. Some Christians have a problems with Catholics because most Catholics are worshipping Mary, saints, angels, praying to the dead, have statues and images. To most Christians, it is idolatry because the only intercessor between man and God is Jesus. He alone is the way to God and created beings should never be worshipped. God also say in the Bible that communicating with the dead is forbidden, that includes prayer. So you can see that all the people fighting is because of fear that certain beliefs would be forced on them or that they would get in trouble with God. And then you have the whole free will/sovereignty or Trinity/no Trinity thing. No wonder it is forbidden to talk about it on this forum. It only causes fights and arguments. People will never agree with each other on everything and all the time. That's totally impossible. Even among a specific denomination there are people who don't agree with each other and people of the same denomination don't necessarily have the exact same beliefs or views. I've had a bad experience with Catholics in the past, but I have nothing against them as people. On the other hand, even though I'm polite when they talk to me, I avoid them as much as possible because I have a history of idolatry myself and the last thing I want is to get in trouble with God again. Not all religions lead to heaven. In fact no religion leads to heaven. It isn't about religion, it's about Jesus. Well, yeah, I'm friends with a ET who misrepresent God and It just seems that I can't give him up or give up on him. The Bible clearly tells us that we are not to compromise with the world, but Jesus never asked me to put an end to my friendship with my ET friend. He only asked me to drop the subject of UR when talking to my friend. But idolatry is something that makes most Christians shudder. I don't know if it's true, but someone once told me that it is the worst of all sins. Many people died in the OT because of that sin and sometimes I wonder why I'm still alive.
"It might refer also to mystery babylon, that the harlot will be judged, the mother and her daughters in this great tribulation.
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
I don't see what Babylon and harlot have to do with me, my mom and my sis. My sister has sex outside of marriage because she's not married with her boyfriend, but she is faithful and even though they are both unsaved and they have sinned just like everyone else, I will not tolerate my family being compared to Babylon and harlots. And just so you know, the whore of Babylon is actually the Vatican. I suggest you study the subject and search these things for yourself. The Vatican has been infiltrated by Satanists and the Cardinals wear scarlet just like the whore of Babylon, not to mention that the Pope promote the idea of aliens from space which are nothing but evil fallen angels. All the so-called alien abductions are in fact demonic attack and demonic oppression. Before I became a Christian Universalist, I was attacked and tormented in my sleep by evil spirits. I have been for ten years. Have you ever heard of "Shadow men" or the "Shadow People"? Check on Wikipedia. Thousands of people have seen them. I've been attacked and oppressed by evil spirits in my sleep by them for ten years. But Jesus protected me and saved my soul from them countless times. They attack mostly when people are asleep, because people are completely vulnerable then...
"But God wants us all to avoid his wrath, by keeping watch and making sure the thief does not break in unexpectingly and find us sleeping."
Well, it's HIS responsibility now, isn't it? I'm not an enabler. I'm only human and I'm doing everything I can. He could start with curing me of my addiction to nicotine and cigarette. For how many months will I have to pray and beg before I am cured? How long will I keep smoking? How long will I keep enjoying it and hating it in turn? How long will I have to follow the desire of my flesh and then hate myself for enjoying something that is sinful, harmful to myself and displeasing to God? I'm the worst of all Christians. I keep smoking cigarette after cigarette and I say: "I'm sorry, Lord", "Forgive me, Jesus", but I just keep smoking anyway. And everytime, I smoke a cigarette, I hear that voice that tells me: "If you die before confessing all of your sins, you'll roast in hell for all eternity. That cigarette might very well be your downfall, but you'll just keep smoking anyway." That stupid drug addiction is killing me and I always feel like it's getting in the way of my relationship with God. And I feel guilty all the time. I feel dirty and disgusting and I feel like God is most displeased with me. Maybe that dream was about my guilty conscience. I just don't understand why God doesn't cure me. I've been praying and begging for weeks. What's the point of not curing me? I don't see how good could come out of this. I always feel like it's somehow putting distance between me and God and half of the time when I repent of it, I'm not sincere and it's killing me because I know I'm just gonna smoke another one. I'm doing harm to God's temple which is my body and the Bible says that those who defile God's temple, He will destroy them. I don't want to be punished and I just don't understand why He doesn't cure when I spent so much time praying and begging Him to cure me...
"I truly believe your natural mind is fighting with your spiritual being for control. I believe God wants to reveal his true nature to you but history, the teachings and abuses of man have you bound. It's keeping you from experiencing his fullness."
Well, yeah, I've often felt that my natural mind was fighting with my spiritual being for control and it's totally killing me. "Who will deliver from the body of this death?" I will never understand why the Lord chose such a salvation process. Is that really what He wants? His children becoming walking battlefields? I'm sick and tired of my flesh and spirit fighting it out. That in and of itself is torture. I just wish I knew how to murder that thing living inside me, which the Bible calls natural mind. Then the problem would be solved for good, because my spirit would finally be free to progress faster in the Lord. The natural mind is a cancer, a poison, just like that aging, decaying, mortal body my soul is forced to live in. Did you know that as soon as a human being is born, his cells starts to deteriorate? We are living souls living in decaying, dying bodies. And I have to live with the horror of that reality everyday. I am a living soul trapped in a rotting, decaying, dying flesh prison. Why, Lord, why? And as if that wasn't enough, there's sickness, malady, physical pain, and death (more often than not, painful). Why the Lord leaves us to live in such a state of fragility and vulnerability is beyond my understanding. Why not remedy to it? Sometimes, I can't help but think: "Does God really love us or does He just pity us?" How many times in my life will I have to ask the oh so important and still unanswered question: "Why, Lord, Why?" before I start getting answers? And I hate my natural mind and I wish I could utterly destroy it because it keeps me from understanding many spiritual things and it always try to hinder my walk with God. You think God wants to reveal His true nature to me? But the fact is, God is just way too big and way too holy for any human to receive the revelation of His true nature and stay sane. Why do you think He concealed or covered Himself when speaking to people in the OT? Things became different when He came here on earth, in the flesh, because His human flesh concealed or covered His true nature and people could actually look at Him without going blind or insane. The Bible says that no one can see God and live. I don't think God will ever reveal His true nature to anyone in this life. The finite mind wouldn't comprehend it and such revelation would make a man go insane. That's what most people say anyway and I think it's true...
"I believe God wants to reveal his true nature to you but history, the teachings and abuses of man have you bound. It's keeping you from experiencing his fullness. God is not a bully, nor is he an ogre. Does he correct? Certainly. But, it's to steer you, to shape you in order to bring you closer...not to seperate you. I believe your image of God is still greatly distorted and that is going to take some healing that only God can bring into your life. A healthy fear of God is a good thing, but when that healthy fear turns into a chronic anxiety that leads to trying to stave off God's fury...you end up with a relationship with the law.
Michelle, God loves you deeply. He isn't out to get you. He isn't hiding behind the bushes hoping to catch you doing something wrong so he can slap your hands."
Being an extremist doesn't lead anywhere good, you know. The ETs consider fear of God to be a great and useful thing, the Christian Universalists seem to consider it to be a very bad thing to be avoided. But there's a middle ground you know. I think God can use fear to an extent to bring about good things and I don't think fear is entirely a bad thing. Also, being corrected and chastized is a fearful thing:
"THE LIVING GOD FEARFUL.
"It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God."--Heb.x:31
To fall into the hands of God, the living God, is as when (I Sam. v:6) "the hand of the Lord was heavy," and "the hand of the Lord was against the Philistines."
"It denotes the judgments of God falling on the sinful. It is fearful to merit and receive those penalties. God has a merciful purpose in them, but they are often fearful to experience. We are always in God's hands, but we are said to "fall into" his hands when we suffer the consequences of sinfulness. It is a fearful thing to merit and receive the results of wickedness, even though a beneficent purpose moulds them, just as an amputation is a fearful process to undergo, though it may save life and restore health."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#14
Maybe, as you said, history, the teachings and abuses of man have me bound, somehow, but I seriously doubt that fear is entirely a bad thing. And that's from someone who hates being scared. But what happened last night left me with a new understanding of fear. That it wouldn't last, that peace and love would always follow, that God's mercy really endures forever, and that it wasn't entirely a bad thing because when God is displeased and angry, He will never refuse to make peace with someone who ask for peace and the fear I experienced on that night taught me two important things. One, When God is displeased, He will always lead people to repentance (I cried out to Him and asked for His help). Two, the consequences of sin are often fearful to experience as the "Bible threatening explained" article says, so it is only natural that it causes a certain amount of fear.
Also, something else recently happened to me that is bothering me. When I received the revelation of truth from the Holy Spirit and embraced Christian Universalism, I was filled with God's love to overflow and that peace that passes all understanding, and that joy, and true happiness for once. I was not only filled with His love for me, but with His love for all mankind. I truly loved all mankind. I was so filled and intoxicated with His love that I walked in a state of contentment and pure ecstasy or great inner peace for a time. It lasted a few days, then it subsided. As Gary put it:
"For the next three days after this incident I walked this earth in what seemed to me to be perfect love. I think it was absolutely impossible for me during that time to hate anyone, not even the most evil person I could think of. I felt like a small child holding on to the back of Jesus, looking at the world through His eyes, hearing with His ears, and loving with His heart. For three days this earth was paradise. Everything was beautiful. All the awful people were gone. Now you have to understand there were a lot of people I hated during that time of my life. I had become extremely prejudice and quick to write off people in general.
For several days thereafter, but especially the first three days, there was a love operating in me which either blinded me from seeing the awful side of people or dispelled some power in me which made me perceive people in a way different from what they really were. Whatever was going on, I had genuine love and concern for people to whom I would not normally give the time of day. Something totally not me was going on inside of me.
After three days of intense perfect love, there seemed to be a gradual decrease until by the eighth day, I felt almost like my normal self. That was awful!! I didn't know how I was going to live with myself the way I used to be, having experienced life in such a glorious way. What a downer! Having been an atheist all my life, I really had very little exposure to religion. I had no idea what was going on. I knew that I needed help. Whatever I experienced, I wanted to go back to that state."
http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/GaryAmirault.html
Some people say we shouldn't trust our feelings, but how are you supposed to keep living with your normal self when you have experienced this? Why doesn't it last forever? I want that back! Not anyone in their right mind wouldn't want that back! How can I convince God to do it again and make it last forever? I nearly lost my mind when I lost this. After experiencing this and losing it, I went through a painful emotional shock and it truly felt like separation from God. Maybe that was what my dream or vision was about. You said our dreams could be our subconscience working out unresolved anxieties. It's also proved that our dreams can be related to the traumas we went through. I dunno. I could speculate indefinitely because I have no idea what that dream or visions really means. I somehow know that I was never separated from God after this "experience", that it is only an "impression". But it just feels so real that it's killing me. I have to get that back at all costs. I cannot love mankind with ordinary, weak, human love. I cannot feel alive and fully believe the promises of scriptures without that supernatural, divine and infinite love for mankind. Once you have experienced this and you lose it, you feel dead inside. You might hurt, cry and feel depressed, but you feel utterly dead. Oh, to love all of mankind through Him again. Oh, to feel so close to the Master. To be so one with Him that you can't tell where you begin and where He ends and the other way around. *Sobbing* (http://www.howardforums.com/images/smilies/crying_loundly.gif) Everyday I hunger and thirst for more of Him. When I had that dream or vision, I was so terrified of losing Him, of being separated from Him, even temporarily. I know that He will never leave me and that He loves me very much, I've felt it after I woke up from that dream or vision, but I wish I was always so very close to Him and always love everyone with HIS perfect love. I want that to last forever. I have to ge that back. Life is nothing and meaningless without that...
"A healthy fear of God is a good thing, but when that healthy fear turns into a chronic anxiety that leads to trying to stave off God's fury...you end up with a relationship with the law. We are to experience freedom, not another form of prison. Be more God conscious than sins conscious. Abide in relationship knowing you are accepted just the way you are...and find your rest."
People just can't do anything they want, Shawn. We can't say that we are accepted just the way we are and continue in sin. We are to live righteous and holy lives. We are to be examples to those who do not know Christ and not give them a reason to believe that we are "heretics" and "dreamers" as the ETs say. I'm very well aware that we can't do that in our own strength, that only Jesus can do it for us, but it's no reason to continue in sin. And without being legalists, we must strive to avoid sin and ask for Jesus' strength in doing so. I just wish He would cure me of my addiction to nicotine and cigarette. Of all the sins I've ever struggled with, It's the worst. Maybe only second to becoming obssess with studying UR material at the cost of neglecting my prayer life and my relationship with Him. He tried to get my attention for days and I ignored Him. Why do I always have to be so stupid? I can't do that again, not ever. I hate myself for hurting Jesus. I hate myself everytime I hurt Him, but it just keep happening. I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him. (http://www.howardforums.com/images/smilies/crying_loundly.gif)
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
:cloud9: Hi Michelle.......welcome to the board. I had an experience with His love in the beginning of my walk, just like you describe, and it too seemed to "disipate" over a about a week and a half. I believe some of us have to be shown the end from the beginning, especially if we have never know what love was, to keep us pressing in until we reach that again. My :2c: Blessings.....
Quote from: Michelle on February 28, 2011, 08:59:44 AM
"Your words are found within the bible
Luke 21:26
26Men's hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
It sounds like you had a vision of the great tribulation, or the day of the lord, when his wrath is poured out. You also mention wrath in your words, the bible says..."
Really not helping... :mshock:
Maybe not initially, but once you realize you don't have to go there, it won't scare you so much.
TT
"The grey ash you describe might be some kind of nuclear destruction or supernatural powers of great destruction such as a meteor, that is made of chemicals."
Everything was ashy grey, there was no actual ash...
Perhaps it was a meteor shower :winkgrin:
"Also notice that you mentioned it is temporary, punishement, which the bible also details and says that chastizement is for a season."
Yes, that vision or dream or whatever it was didn't shatter my conviction that the punishment was temporary. In fact, if I look on the bright side, I realize that that vision or whatever it was strenghtened my conviction that the punishment was temporary. If it wasn't certainty to me before, it is now, because I felt it as fact, as certainty and the Holy Spirit bore witness with my spirit. Another thing that I don't understand is why God doesn't reveal this to all the ETs so they can just stop causing so much damage to themselves and others...
"Perhaps the phone call was connected to the dream. Maybe the message is that if christian denominations continue to fight each other, they would be cast into great tribulation..."
It's not that simple, Thinktank. People have different beliefs and they are convinced that if they go against their personal beliefs or get along with people who have different beliefs, they will get in serious trouble with God. I will give you an example and don't think that I'm being criticizing other denominations here, I'm merely stating facts. Some Christians have a problems with Catholics because most Catholics are worshipping Mary, saints, angels, praying to the dead, have statues and images. To most Christians, it is idolatry because the only intercessor between man and God is Jesus. He alone is the way to God and created beings should never be worshipped. God also say in the Bible that communicating with the dead is forbidden, that includes prayer. So you can see that all the people fighting is because of fear that certain beliefs would be forced on them or that they would get in trouble with God. And then you have the whole free will/sovereignty or Trinity/no Trinity thing. No wonder it is forbidden to talk about it on this forum. It only causes fights and arguments. People will never agree with each other on everything and all the time. That's totally impossible. Even among a specific denomination there are people who don't agree with each other and people of the same denomination don't necessarily have the exact same beliefs or views. I've had a bad experience with Catholics in the past, but I have nothing against them as people. On the other hand, even though I'm polite when they talk to me, I avoid them as much as possible because I have a history of idolatry myself and the last thing I want is to get in trouble with God again. Not all religions lead to heaven. In fact no religion leads to heaven. It isn't about religion, it's about Jesus. Well, yeah, I'm friends with a ET who misrepresent God and It just seems that I can't give him up or give up on him. The Bible clearly tells us that we are not to compromise with the world, but Jesus never asked me to put an end to my friendship with my ET friend. He only asked me to drop the subject of UR when talking to my friend. But idolatry is something that makes most Christians shudder. I don't know if it's true, but someone once told me that it is the worst of all sins. Many people died in the OT because of that sin and sometimes I wonder why I'm still alive.
I don't mean to compromise on beliefs, I don't think that helps at all. But I mean to get rid of and repent of a spirit of hatred. There are groups out there that do hate other denominations. I notice a lot of anticatholic sites, that have a lot of fear and hatred towards the catholic church, this must be repented of.
"It might refer also to mystery babylon, that the harlot will be judged, the mother and her daughters in this great tribulation.
Revelation 18:10
Standing afar off for the fear of her torment, saying, Alas, alas, that great city Babylon, that mighty city! for in one hour is thy judgment come."
I don't see what Babylon and harlot have to do with me, my mom and my sis. My sister has sex outside of marriage because she's not married with her boyfriend, but she is faithful and even though they are both unsaved and they have sinned just like everyone else, I will not tolerate my family being compared to Babylon and harlots.
Sorry you have misundrstood me. I did not connect it to your familly. I meant the dream had a deeper meaning for the body of christ, a message for others. In the interpreatation, your mother and daughter arguing represent Mother babylon and her harlot daughters. It does not matter if they are super holy, they are simoply playing a temporary character role, in my own movie interpretation of your dream.
And just so you know, the whore of Babylon is actually the Vatican. I suggest you study the subject and search these things for yourself. The Vatican has been infiltrated by Satanists and the Cardinals wear scarlet just like the whore of Babylon, not to mention that the Pope promote the idea of aliens from space which are nothing but evil fallen angels.
I have studied the identity of mystery babylon for a long time. I cannot see the vatician being the whore, I'm sorry. I believe that most of the christian scholars have it completely wrong and that the catholic church having purple and scarlet clothing is an unfortunate coincidence which serves well in, sidetracking the identity of the real whore. The idea of the vatician being the whore is mans method of looking for a likely candidate and trying to force the piece into the scriptures. But if one look at the bulk of the scripture, a lot does fit but many do not, that is eqivalent to having a key that is the correct size to a lock, but does not have the correct pattern to fit the key hole, therefore is not the correct key.
All the so-called alien abductions are in fact demonic attack and demonic oppression.
TT
That is a great relief for the christian world.
TT
Before I became a Christian Universalist, I was attacked and tormented in my sleep by evil spirits. I have been for ten years. Have you ever heard of "Shadow men" or the "Shadow People"? Check on Wikipedia. Thousands of people have seen them. I've been attacked and oppressed by evil spirits in my sleep by them for ten years. But Jesus protected me and saved my soul from them countless times. They attack mostly when people are asleep, because people are completely vulnerable then...
"But God wants us all to avoid his wrath, by keeping watch and making sure the thief does not break in unexpectingly and find us sleeping."
Well, it's HIS responsibility now, isn't it? I'm not an enabler. I'm only human and I'm doing everything I can. He could start with curing me of my addiction to nicotine and cigarette. For how many months will I have to pray and beg before I am cured? How long will I keep smoking? How long will I keep enjoying it and hating it in turn? How long will I have to follow the desire of my flesh and then hate myself for enjoying something that is sinful, harmful to myself and displeasing to God? I'm the worst of all Christians. I keep smoking cigarette after cigarette and I say: "I'm sorry, Lord", "Forgive me, Jesus", but I just keep smoking anyway. And everytime, I smoke a cigarette, I hear that voice that tells me: "If you die before confessing all of your sins, you'll roast in hell for all eternity. That cigarette might very well be your downfall, but you'll just keep smoking anyway." That stupid drug addiction is killing me and I always feel like it's getting in the way of my relationship with God. And I feel guilty all the time. I feel dirty and disgusting and I feel like God is most displeased with me. Maybe that dream was about my guilty conscience. I just don't understand why God doesn't cure me. I've been praying and begging for weeks. What's the point of not curing me? I don't see how good could come out of this. I always feel like it's somehow putting distance between me and God and half of the time when I repent of it, I'm not sincere and it's killing me because I know I'm just gonna smoke another one. I'm doing harm to God's temple which is my body and the Bible says that those who defile God's temple, He will destroy them. I don't want to be punished and I just don't understand why He doesn't cure when I spent so much time praying and begging Him to cure me...
TT
It's not healthy to hate the flesh. I think this is a bad myth of christianity that does a lot of damage. Christians don't seem to realize that when the body is taken cared of and is fed good nutrition and also good healthy thoughts and healthy lifestyle, then there is no evil and struggle is much less. Eating food for example is not disgusting, but a pleasurable experience that is wonderfull. Excercise also gives pleasure. The body when operating well, is happy and the spirit or inner man, has a healthy relationship with the body.
The bible says
Ephesians 5:29
For no man ever yet hated his own flesh; but nourisheth and cherisheth it, even as the Lord the church:
Instead of going cold turkey, smoke less each day. Excercise plan an athlete has, you create a smoking plan, in 6 months you could be smoking half the amount or even quit altogether.
TT
It's not healthy to hate the flesh. I think this is a bad myth of christianity that does a lot of damage. Christians don't seem to realize that when the body is taken cared of and is fed good nutrition and also good healthy thoughts and healthy lifestyle, then there is no evil and struggle is much less. Eating food for example is not disgusting, but a pleasurable experience that is wonderfull. Excercise also gives pleasure. The body when operating well, is happy and the spirit or inner man, has a healthy relationship with the body.
ThinkTank
Thats good stuff man, I have been thinking that way lately, since I was so trying to kill the carnal nature (I would get it confused with my body) I've been making myself kind of miserable.
That's what I was thinking too, the difference between the natural flesh (our physical body, the temple) and the carnal "flesh", i.e., sinful MIND/desires/tendencies. I haven't looked at the Greek, but although the English translations often use those terms (for flesh) interchangeably, I believe it's good to differentiate. :thumbsup:
Michelle, a couple things caught my eye. First, if you read my initial response you will see that I say a healthy fear of God is a good thing. But, then go on to describe an unhealthy fear of God. I don't believe that to be an extremist view. Since I don't know you and you don't know me all we have is words on a screen. You can not hear the tone of my heart. My style is direct, but I have a deep compassion for anyone who has been abused, physicially, emotionally or spiritually. Those deep wounds seem to seep into all avenues of one's life from relationships to people, relationship to yourself, and relationship to God. I understand this on a personal level. I battle with some of the same things you battle with. But, I have found some relief and I am trying to direct you towards that. I hope that doesn't offend you, or my style rubbed you the wrong way.
Let me say, that most dreams are not visions. Most dreams are used to either problem solve, defrag cerebral information, or to work out emotional issues. They do have a physiological purpose and we don't need to get too worked up about them. I have had dreams prompt me to make an ammend. My subconscious mind brought forth to my conscious mind a hurt I caused another. I didn't even realize it at the time. I remember struggling for hours on a physics problem in college. When I woke up the next day I knew the solution. How many times have you gone to bed sad, depressed, only to feel better in the morning? That is because of a couple reasons, rest and yes dreams. I say all this because it is very easy for us to overreact and read something into an event, situation, dream etc. I believe this was nothing more than your mind working out cognitive dissonance. But, when we misinterpret it tends to create more of it. I know from personal experience. Since I have suffered from anxiety for much of my life, I am very good at working up something from nothing. I have to redirect, and have healthy internal dialogue with myself.
I would agree with your sentiment about this flesh. We all feel that pull and yield to it at times. The fact that it bothers you is actually a good thing. But, obsessing about it and allowing it to consume your thought life isn't. You want to please God but don't always do it. We are all in that boat. Paul described the same problem within him. If Paul suffered from the affliction of the flesh what makes you think you will get out of it? It's God's training ground for the soul. We don't have to like it, merely live in it. The flesh has open communication with the world. The spirit has open communication with God. The soul is caught in between. We are being spoken to in both ears. It creates a pull, and there is a constant tension. We are trained by the hand of God to turn our eyes and ears towards the spirit. That is a painful and gradual process. Take solace in knowing, we are all there with you. God isn't shocked when you fail. He expects it. He uses our failures to train us.
When I obsess about my failures with the flesh, I find myself depressed, joyless, useless and without peace. When I fix my eyes upon him, my joy returns and I find my rest. Focus on the good things in this life. Make a gratitude list when you feel like negative thinking is overwhelming you. Fixating on the negative, the depressing, the failiures, the injustice etc will only lead to a miserable existence.
After reading your story, I realize you might be in the same boat as myself who needed some additional help processing early childhood pain. Mine was AA, my sponsor, and a professional counselor. Yours could be a Christian support group, or an abuse support group. Trying to work through all that yourself isn't always wise or fruitful.
Quote from: jabcat on March 01, 2011, 03:50:50 AM
That's what I was thinking too, the difference between the natural flesh (our physical body, the temple) and the carnal "flesh", i.e., sinful MIND/desires/tendencies. I haven't looked at the Greek, but although the English translations often use those terms (for flesh) interchangeably, I believe it's good to differentiate. :thumbsup:
I think you are correct. We are talking about two different things here. The flesh that needs to die is carnal thinking and pursuits. The flesh we live in is the temple of the Holy Spirit. It's kind of like saying I love someone with all of my heart. No we love them with our minds.
People wonder what dying to self means. They think it means how you dress or what you watch on tv or whether you smoke or drink or whether you volunteer 10 hours a week at a soup kitchen.
I don't think it is any of those things.
If we look at how the world works, we see, generally, a template of self interest and greed which ends up harming everyone. Even someone like Bernie Madoff was harmed terribly by his own greed, worrying how he was going to be able to repay the billions he lost and spent, until it became clear to him that he was not going to be able to escape justice. I am sure his fun with his homes, cars, planes, and boats was constantly overshadowed by worry.
Those involved with him paid a huge price also. Whether they knew and helped cover for him, or winked and benefited, few escaped unscathed.
If any one person had said, I am going to expose this no matter that it cost me my job or my lifestyle or my family or my life, everything would have been different. Do I think there were many people--in his organization, client base, and the government-- who could have done this during his 20 year spree? Oh yes.
But, not one was willing to 'die to self.' The game was too good. And, the stakes too high.
Dying to self means you love truth, honor, and integrity more than your own self interest. It means you give your life for your friends. And, your friends, like in the story of the good samaritan, and the story of the cross, are everyone. There is no greater love.
Quote from: CHB on February 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
Quote from: Cardinal on March 01, 2011, 12:35:07 AM
:cloud9: Hi Michelle.......welcome to the board. I had an experience with His love in the beginning of my walk, just like you describe, and it too seemed to "disipate" over a about a week and a half. I believe some of us have to be shown the end from the beginning, especially if we have never know what love was, to keep us pressing in until we reach that again. My :2c: Blessings.....
It's killing me. And it's not like we can really love mankind with our weak, pathetic, human love. Only with his pure, perfect, divine love. And everyone desperately needs to feel alive...
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 01, 2011, 03:23:43 AM
It's not healthy to hate the flesh. I think this is a bad myth of christianity that does a lot of damage. Christians don't seem to realize that when the body is taken cared of and is fed good nutrition and also good healthy thoughts and healthy lifestyle, then there is no evil and struggle is much less. Eating food for example is not disgusting, but a pleasurable experience that is wonderfull. Excercise also gives pleasure. The body when operating well, is happy and the spirit or inner man, has a healthy relationship with the body.
ThinkTank
Thats good stuff man, I have been thinking that way lately, since I was so trying to kill the carnal nature (I would get it confused with my body) I've been making myself kind of miserable.
That doesn't mean we can indulge in just about any fleshly pleasure. Eating good food and exercising is not sinful so there is no need for renewing our mind and mortify the deeds of the flesh when it comes to that. But one simply cannot abuse alcohol, do drugs or commit fornication. As a Christian, one is responsible for renewing his mind and mortify the deeds of the flesh when a sinful desire come. As I said earlier in another post, one simply cannot do everything he wants. Those who love the Lord strive to live a righteous and holy life. They set an example for new Christians and future Christians. Just because we know the truth of Universal Salvation doesn't mean we can do anything we want and minimize the gravity of sin. We must repent and ask for His strength and faith to avoid sinning. And if the carnal nature is not the body then what is it? I'm interested. The carnal nature is one of many hindrances in our walk with the Lord, it is enmity with God. So, if you know how to get rid of it, please share...
Quote from: jabcat on March 01, 2011, 03:50:50 AM
That's what I was thinking too, the difference between the natural flesh (our physical body, the temple) and the carnal "flesh", i.e., sinful MIND/desires/tendencies. I haven't looked at the Greek, but although the English translations often use those terms (for flesh) interchangeably, I believe it's good to differentiate. :thumbsup:
Once you have found the answer, please share. What I want to know is how to kill it for good...
Quote from: shawn on March 01, 2011, 04:02:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 01, 2011, 03:50:50 AM
That's what I was thinking too, the difference between the natural flesh (our physical body, the temple) and the carnal "flesh", i.e., sinful MIND/desires/tendencies. I haven't looked at the Greek, but although the English translations often use those terms (for flesh) interchangeably, I believe it's good to differentiate. :thumbsup:
I think you are correct. We are talking about two different things here. The flesh that needs to die is carnal thinking and pursuits. The flesh we live in is the temple of the Holy Spirit. It's kind of like saying I love someone with all of my heart. No we love them with our minds.
Not at all. We love them with our SPIRITUAL hearts. It's a spiritual heart that is just behind our physical hearts and it's called the Sacred Heart. Also, love is not something we offer or do, it's what we are. God is love and we were made in the image of God, therefore we ARE love. Love is our identity, it is what we are. What we give or do is the result of love, not love itself. You should read: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green. All Christian Universalists should. Some of it will be Babel gibberish to you if you hardly know anything about physics and science, but most of it will make perfect sense and it will change your life. It's a must read for all Christian Universalists...
Quote from: MichelleWe love them with our SPIRITUAL hearts. It's a spiritual heart that is just behind our physical hearts and it's called the Sacred Heart. Also, love is not something we offer or do, it's what we are. God is love and we were made in the image of God, therefore we ARE love. Love is our identity, it is what we are. What we give or do is the result of love, not love itself.
I like that. :thumbsup:
Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 12:54:21 PM
Quote from: shawn on March 01, 2011, 04:02:33 AM
Quote from: jabcat on March 01, 2011, 03:50:50 AM
That's what I was thinking too, the difference between the natural flesh (our physical body, the temple) and the carnal "flesh", i.e., sinful MIND/desires/tendencies. I haven't looked at the Greek, but although the English translations often use those terms (for flesh) interchangeably, I believe it's good to differentiate. :thumbsup:
I think you are correct. We are talking about two different things here. The flesh that needs to die is carnal thinking and pursuits. The flesh we live in is the temple of the Holy Spirit. It's kind of like saying I love someone with all of my heart. No we love them with our minds.
Not at all. We love them with our SPIRITUAL hearts. It's a spiritual heart that is just behind our physical hearts and it's called the Sacred Heart. Also, love is not something we offer or do, it's what we are. God is love and we were made in the image of God, therefore we ARE love. Love is our identity, it is what we are. What we give or do is the result of love, not love itself. You should read: "Love without end, Jesus speaks", by Glenda Green. All Christian Universalists should. Some of it will be Babel gibberish to you if you hardly know anything about physics and science, but most of it will make perfect sense and it will change your life. It's a must read for all Christian Universalists...
The sacred heart is not something I am familiar with...is this a Biblical principle? I believe it's mostly associated with the Catholic faith, so I wouldn't be very familar with it. With that said, I think you missed the point I was trying to make. When I say this, I am speaking to myself as well as anyone else with ears. But, sometimes we ask questions but don't quiet ourselves or humble ourselves enough to listen to the answers God is trying to give us through others. :2c:
Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
This is what Adam and Eve thought. Hey we are perfect beings, we don't need God anymore, we will rule by ourselves. This world is a demonstration of what life is like without God.
"People wonder what dying to self means. They think it means how you dress or what you watch on tv or whether you smoke or drink or whether you volunteer 10 hours a week at a soup kitchen.
I don't think it is any of those things." Molly
Right on and Amen. :thumbsup: :bigGrin: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: thinktank on March 03, 2011, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
This is what Adam and Eve thought. Hey we are perfect beings, we don't need God anymore, we will rule by ourselves. This world is a demonstration of what life is like without God.
That's not what I meant at all. Don't twist my words. I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule. I'm a follower, not a leader. That's why I hope I won't be chosen to rule with Him in the millenial kingdom (if that doctrine is true). I would give my crown to someone else. The thought of so many responsibilities and thousands of people to take care of makes me shudder. I prefer to serve and follow rather than lead and what's the point of ruling yourself if it seperates you from God? Adam and Eve weren't very bright if you ask me. What I was saying is, I wish I was perfect so I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again, because everytime I do, I hate myself and I hurt too. Also, I wish I was perfect because if I was, I would be everything He wants me to be, so He would always be pleased with me and we would both be happy. And people living in heaven are perfect and they still need Him. Everyone needs God. Those who pretend that they don't are either lying or spiritually dead aka unsaved...
The pain of yielding to the flesh is yet another tool God uses in the sanctification process. If we can sin and not feel remorse then I believe something is not quite right with our walk. Read Romans 7 and 8 in the MSG, through biblegateway. Read about Paul's anguish in the flesh. In that translation his battle really came to life for me. It hurt him. It's painful. Pain is part of the process.
I can say I have struggled most of my life and even to an extent today with beating myself for failures. But, hating yourself for failures is a toxic cycle. I can't even count how many times I would be white knuckling temptation, resist and base my relationship with Christ off of that. If I resisted, I was ok, loveable and acceptable. If I failed, I was scum of the earth, unworthy, insignificant and hated myself. I would then sulk through life until enough time passed that I could "feel his presence" again. I would live it for awhile, experience growth, then fall flat on my face again. This cycle is so toxic to growth, and it's not freedom.
Today, I do my best to keep my focus on him. I know that God is not shocked by my failiures and allows me to experience the pain of failure for my benefit. If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest. If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious.
Should our failures hurt? I believe so. But, in our failures we need to realize that God is indeed in control. He WONT leave us like this. He will finish the work he started. So, learning to forgive ourselves becomes a much needed spiritual gift that can only come from God. If you want the ability to forgive yourself, ask God for it. Holding ourselves to standards of perfection is a form of narcissism dressed up like holiness.
I can say I have struggled most of my life and even to an extent today with beating myself for failures. But, hating yourself for failures is a toxic cycle. I can't even count how many times I would be white knuckling temptation, resist and base my relationship with Christ off of that. If I resisted, I was ok, loveable and acceptable. If I failed, I was scum of the earth, unworthy, insignificant and hated myself. I would then sulk through life until enough time passed that I could "feel his presence" again. I would live it for awhile, experience growth, then fall flat on my face again. This cycle is so toxic to growth, and it's not freedom.
Today, I do my best to keep my focus on him. I know that God is not shocked by my failiures and allows me to experience the pain of failure for my benefit. If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest. If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious.
You sure you can't see into my mind? Wow you just described myself. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Quote from: redhotmagma on March 04, 2011, 07:29:37 PM
I can say I have struggled most of my life and even to an extent today with beating myself for failures. But, hating yourself for failures is a toxic cycle. I can't even count how many times I would be white knuckling temptation, resist and base my relationship with Christ off of that. If I resisted, I was ok, loveable and acceptable. If I failed, I was scum of the earth, unworthy, insignificant and hated myself. I would then sulk through life until enough time passed that I could "feel his presence" again. I would live it for awhile, experience growth, then fall flat on my face again. This cycle is so toxic to growth, and it's not freedom.
Today, I do my best to keep my focus on him. I know that God is not shocked by my failiures and allows me to experience the pain of failure for my benefit. If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest. If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious.
You sure you can't see into my mind? Wow you just described myself. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
It's common to man. We just don't talk about it enough so people suffer in silence. The truth will bring light to the darkness...healing to the sick.
Quote from: Michelle on March 04, 2011, 09:29:51 AM
Quote from: thinktank on March 03, 2011, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
This is what Adam and Eve thought. Hey we are perfect beings, we don't need God anymore, we will rule by ourselves. This world is a demonstration of what life is like without God.
That's not what I meant at all. Don't twist my words. I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule. I'm a follower, not a leader. That's why I hope I won't be chosen to rule with Him in the millenial kingdom (if that doctrine is true). I would give my crown to someone else. The thought of so many responsibilities and thousands of people to take care of makes me shudder. I prefer to serve and follow rather than lead and what's the point of ruling yourself if it seperates you from God? Adam and Eve weren't very bright if you ask me. What I was saying is, I wish I was perfect so I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again, because everytime I do, I hate myself and I hurt too. Also, I wish I was perfect because if I was, I would be everything He wants me to be, so He would always be pleased with me and we would both be happy. And people living in heaven are perfect and they still need Him. Everyone needs God. Those who pretend that they don't are either lying or spiritually dead aka unsaved...
Michelle, you misunderstood me once again and took it personal.
You asked or pondered the following
Michelle
And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
I assume you were serious in this question and wanted to know why we as people would bother with Jesus if we we already perfect. My answer is that Jesus is the one that made us perfect, and so without him, we would decay morally as Adam and Eve found out, when they walked away from him. But it seems in your reply to me, you understand this already, but I clear up that I was not accusing too you, this i.e "I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule." so I was not comparing you to Adam and Eve.
"If in my failures I draw closer to him then I will find my rest. If I use it as an opportunity to beat and punish myself, well that is another form of destructive self seeking disquised as something pious. Should our failures hurt? I believe so. But, in our failures we need to realize that God is indeed in control. He WONT leave us like this. He will finish the work he started. So, learning to forgive ourselves becomes a much needed spiritual gift that can only come from God. If you want the ability to forgive yourself, ask God for it. Holding ourselves to standards of perfection is a form of narcissism dressed up like holiness."
This isn't about me. What part of "I want to be perfect TO Him and FOR Him" did you not understand? Why loving beings full of imperfections and impurities when He is so perfect and hates imperfection above all else? If He wants people to be perfect then why not just do right away? My imperfections and impurities are part of me so He can't possibly REALLY TRULY love me in this life because He hates with a passion what is part of me. And since He is God Almighty, He doesn't need to put us through all that sh*t, He doesn't need to leave those impurities and imperfections to exist in us and put us through a whole century of stupid tests, and failures, and in a states that he hates so much. He could just make us perfect now and REALLY TRULY love us because we would be right away everything He wants us to be. When you can just snap your fingers and make something happen by performing a mega miracle you don't come up with excuses about time, trials, tests and so-called necessaries pain, shame, guilt, self-hatred and unworthiness. If He TRULY REALLY hated sin and imperfection, He would deal with it NOW. He wouldn't leave His children to be something ugly, disgusting and unworthy. Time, trials, tests, pain and self-loathing is totally unnecessary when an Almighty God has the power to make everything perfect and pure. And you have no idea how sick I am of hearing "Let God work" or "God is working". God doesn't need to work. God can snap his fingers and can make anything happen right away. It's only an excuse to put us through unnecessary pain, trials, losing everyone we love and being a victim of evil people who abuse us non-stop until there's nothing left but pain, loneliness and misery. And He never interferes. He just let everyone and everything hurt you and destroy your life without lifting so much as a finger to help you. And if He REALLY TRULY hated sin and imperfection as He pretend that He does, then He wouldn't waste time and He would deal with it now, instead of leaving His "beloved" children to be infected with something that he hates and despise. You said that God allowed you to feel the pain of failure for your benefit, but that is a lie. It is not for our benefit. I hurt and despise myself for not being perfect to Him and for Him, I don't called that being allowed to feel the pain of failure for my benefit. He planned my failures before the beginning of the world and made them part of His plan and He leaves me to feel guilty, ashamed and disgusting for not being perfect to Him and for Him when He planned my failures to begin with. Of all the cruel, sick, evil things God could ever do to His children, that is the worst. It's all His fault. It's like a mother who wants her son to be perfect for she hates imperfection, but she planned his failures from the start so that her son can never truly be worthy and be everything his mother wants him to be. And the son love his mother so much that's it's killing him that he's stuck in a state in which he can never truly please his mother. It's a freaking curse. Is life even worth living? Everything is a joke! I should hate Him. I should really hate Him for that. But He won't have that now, won't He? I'm nothing but a toy in His hands. It's only a game to Him, isn't? Isn't? All my life I've been played with by people who supposedly loved me and cared about me. Why must Jesus toy with me like that? You don't play with the feelings and emotions of those who love you that much...
Well, yeah, I'm angry. It'll pass. Maybe if I hadn't so many problems to deal with, I would better stomach it. Between that, my quickly deteriorating friendship with a Fundy and prophetic dreams, I feel stressed out and exhausted. I think I need to minister to some suicidal youths again. And watch some of Gary's videos. That always make me feel better...
Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader. As for myself, I await His decisons and directions, I have nothing to do with the out come. No, I a m not a robot or a puppet, it is His Will that is done, i may continue to keep chosing paths but only until He leads me to the proper one. The He Will Be All in All.
Hi Michelle, you've asked for help, are you benefiting at all from any of the feedback you're getting? Do you wish to just sort of vent and express your thoughts and emotions, or you've also been offered direct communication with a couple of individuals through email/private messaging. What can we do to help you? What works best for you? Thanks, James.
Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2011, 04:07:30 AM
Hi Michelle, you've asked for help, are you benefiting at all from any of the feedback you're getting? Do you wish to just sort of vent and express your thoughts and emotions, or you've also been offered direct communication with a couple of individuals through email/private messaging. What can we do to help you? What works best for you? Thanks, James.
Thanks my friend and brother, you must have been reading my mind for I was just about to speak the same. :HeartThrob:
"Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader."
He will never want me to be a leader because I don't want to be a leader. God doesnt want for His children what they do not want for themselves. God doesn't want His children to be unhappy, miserable, and over-stressed in the millenial Kingdom and eternal life. And He will never force His children into leading against their will or take a position that they do not want against their will because He loves them and when you love people, you don't enslave them for all eternity to unhappiness, misery and over-stress by forcing things upon them. Positions and leadership are heavenly rewards. Heavenly rewards are not forced upon people. One can trade the reward for another reward or give it away. And He takes our wants and dreams into account and make them part of His plan. I talk from experience. I wanted to be an intercessory prayer warrior, He made me one. I didn't want to get married, He left me to be single. God allow us some freedom. Don't make the mistake to think that He forces absolutely everything on us and doesn't give us the smallest bit of freedom or choice. Also, He prefers humility and humbleness, so He will never force into leadership a person who prefers to serve and follow. Why having me lead when I could be His personal servant and serve Him day in night? Leadership and positions in the Kingdom are heavenly rewards, freely given, freely received. One can do anything they want with it because it belongs to them. It can be traded or given away. Now, sure He will decide who it will be given to and who will take that leadership position among those who are willing to lead, but rewards and leadership are not forced upon people. And if you think that God just force everything upon people and doesn't give them any freedom or choice, read the testimonies. Also, if He forced positions of leadership upon people, He would risk a major rebellion, just as much as if He had lied and deceived people to conceal the eternal torture of billions of people in hell. That would be tyranny, for leading is a choice...
http://www.tentmaker.org/testimonials/If-Hell-Is-Real-Moyer-Testimony.html
"are you benefiting at all from any of the feedback you're getting? Do you wish to just sort of vent and express your thoughts and emotions, or you've also been offered direct communication with a couple of individuals through email/private messaging. What can we do to help you? What works best for you?"
I will just shut up and change the subject entirely. It's not like anyone in the world can understand how much I love Him and how much my imperfections are driving me crazy. If there is a hell, then this is it. Such strong, burning love is so painful that it's unbearable and being stuck in such a state of despicable and disgusting imperfection is torture. As for the feedback I'm getting, some of them are a little helpful. It's not anyone's fault. It's not your fault I'm a mess because everything I've been put through in the last few months. Being under demonic oppression for months (even in my sleep), dealing with the E.T doctrine and still dealing with a residue of anxiety and worry that I'm not good enough for Jesus or that I will lose Him, dealing with erroneous doctrines and beliefs I've been brainwashed with, dealing with the O.T, trying to mend my friendship with a Damnationist friend who just keep insulting me, conflictual relationship with my mother and sister and to top it all, the feeling that I'm always twenty feet behind all of you. I've been studying UR for two weeks and I only understand half of what I read. Not just because I'm dealing with a lot of problem and have a hard time focussing on anything, but because I'm fairly new to both Christian Universalism (It's been two weeks) and a personal relationship with God (It's been only six months). And I have had Fundies come to me and tell me, "If you don't understand everything, then you're not saved, because if you were, you would understand everything." So I live with the constant fear that someone on this board will come to me and tell me, "Oh, you don't understand that? Then you're not saved and born from above". I know that I am saved and born from above, but when you have been dealing with Fundies for months, you constantly fear that someone will come and put you in the "unsaved" category and attack your inexperience with some material or scriptures. I have been brainwashed into taking all scriptures literally and I'm still dealing with anxiety and some confusion due to my recent endoctrination. So I will not be on the same level of Biblical understanding than so many of you...
"Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader." ( I am Micah and this is a quote from me)
"He will never want me to be a leader because I don't want to be a leader. God doesnt want for His children what they do not want for themselves." (This is from Michelle)
Just from what and where do you procure your islolation from your creator?
Isa 29:16 O! Your waywardness! Should as clay, the Potter be accounted? For is what is made saying of its Maker, `He did not make me'? And does the formed say of its Former, `He does not understand'?
Isa 64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
He is your leader, your creator, should you decline his offering, well, sorry He WILL have His way, you are only but the clay.
You seem like a "boss" and that what you have gleaned from His Word is what we as His listerns "must" hear or you will leave our presence. Well I say, you speak well of somethings but your personal offering is blunt and hurting. But this is me and I am not one well accepted for my speak. I, just me, do not see where you are coming from and why you fear some of the responses of the brethern that have been offered and which have been good.
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted. They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not. We have believers from all walks of life. I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight. I know they have helped me. I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.
I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen. When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments. Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said. If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.
You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with. I hope this doesn't sound harsh. I know I personally care about your spiritual well being. I would say many others do here as well. So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2011, 08:04:41 AM
"Very honestly, WE, as His creation have really absolutly nothing to do with how He will use us to bring all of His plans, thoughts, and purposes to fullfillment. You say you dont want to be a leader, well, should He want you to be a leader, you will be a leader." ( I am Micah and this is a quote from me)
"He will never want me to be a leader because I don't want to be a leader. God doesnt want for His children what they do not want for themselves." (This is from Michelle)
Just from what and where do you procure your islolation from your creator?
Isa 29:16 O! Your waywardness! Should as clay, the Potter be accounted? For is what is made saying of its Maker, `He did not make me'? And does the formed say of its Former, `He does not understand'?
Isa 64:8 But now, O Jehovah, thou art our Father; we are the clay, and thou our potter; and we all are the work of thy hand.
He is your leader, your creator, should you decline his offering, well, sorry He WILL have His way, you are only but the clay.
You seem like a "boss" and that what you have gleaned from His Word is what we as His listerns "must" hear or you will leave our presence. Well I say, you speak well of somethings but your personal offering is blunt and hurting. But this is me and I am not one well accepted for my speak. I, just me, do not see where you are coming from and why you fear some of the responses of the brethern that have been offered and which have been good.
I never said that I would leave your presence and I never said I was a boss. I simply do not agree with what you said about Him forcing everything on us and not giving us any freedom is all. God simply do not damage His children by forcing them into thing that would seriously damage them. I listened to what you had to say, but I know from personal experience that He takes our wants and dreams into account and make them part of His plan. Or He knew before the beginning of the world what our wants and dreams would be and made at least some of them part of His plan. The Fundies have a saying that goes like this: "God doesn't want you happy, He wants you holy." This is absolutely not true. I can assure you that some of our wants and dreams are part of His perfect plan, because contrary to popular belief, He wants us to have some level of happiness in this life and He knows that people need to be motivated sometimes. He give us some freedom of choice, because as I have said in a my previous post, I have personally experienced it. I was given intercessory prayers to pray and I was not forced into marriage. God doesn't force me into things that would make me unhappy and miserable or damage me more than I already am. He knows my limits. And sometimes, He bless me with with something I asked for. He didn't force me into marriage and I know He won't force me into leadership, authority and power because He knows that it would make me miserable, unhappy and over-stressed for all the ages of my eternal life of immortality. It would damage me just as much as forcing me into marriage after so many abuses and He knows it because we have had a "conversation" about that. He knows my limits and I know that He loves me way too much to force that kind of thing upon me because He has proved it to be. And as I said in my previous post, leadership and positions in the kingdom are heavenly rewards and rewards are not forced upon people and nowhere does it say in the Bible that people will be forced to accept a reward that they do not want or that they will be forced to rule or reign if they want to serve and follow. The only passage pertaining to to rule is the passage in which one of the apostles say: "We shall rule/reign with Him." It doesn't say anything about authority and power forced upon people. It's a reward, a privilege. Look, I listened to what you had to say, but I know from personal experience that He won't force it on those who just can't cope with it, just like He didn't force me into marriage. He clearly showed to me that He knows my limits and that He will never force anything upon me that would seriously damage me or destroy my life.
"He is your leader, your creator, should you decline his offering, well, sorry He WILL have His way, you are only but the clay."
Nice. Promises of tyranny and evil. Just like the Fundies. When people don't threaten you with eternal torture, they say that your heavenly father will seriously damage you and destroy your life by forcing things upon you like an eternal life of authority, power and thousands of everlasting, neverending responsibilities or marriage or seclusion. Or that He will force everything upon you and won't give you the smallest bit of freedom of choice. Well, I know from experience that He is love and will never do something that tyrannic and evil to me. He has shown me on numerous occasion that He loves me way too much to force that kind of thing upon me. If you want to believe that you are a robot or a puppet, be my guest, but me, I have been told by Him that He will never force me into marrying or leading. He just love the fact that I'm a servant and a follower rather than the leading type. And you should study the subject of heavenly REWARDS. Rewards are never forced upon anyone. And I don't like your attitude. I am blunt and hurting? Just because I have disagree with you, you have attacked me. I am entitled to my opinion and in this case, it's not my opinion, it's personal experience...
Well, I thank you. What has been shown to me is your speach is an unwelcome ness to listen, for you have the ability to know all. Perhaps we need to come to you for all our wonders and questions. Your arguments and debates hold no recess, what we know is in error and you are the center of knowledge. I for one find your beggarly pettions unworthy for debate. But go on with your premise, I have dusted my sandles of your displeasure of the Gospel.
Michelle,
Your posts are laced with mistrust and fear. God doesn't torture anyone nor will he place something upon you that you can't handle. If God calls someone to a place of leadership he will equip them with the ability to lead. There is no tyranny, torture or abuse as you have suffered from the hands of men. Micah is right on the money, if God calls you to do something you are clay and can mold you to have the capabilities and desires to do it. But, God doesn't bless our plans and allow us to run the show. That's not how this faith thing works. Do you trust God? If so, then why would you think that God would have anything but the best for you? If not, then you need to ask yourself why.
I truly believe you lack trust for God because you are confused and full of fear. I think past experiences with man has imprisoned you in a world of anxiety. You can't trust man, you can't trust God and you are left with fear, anger, defensiveness and crippling anxiety. Do you believe that's what God wants for you?
It's starts with a childlike faith. You know that you know your Daddy in heaven loves you dearly. When you truly get that, you will see things fall into place for you.
Michelle, there is painful reality in your words. I am not gonna presume to speak for everyone here, but it hasn't been my experience so far that my questions are met with judgement on this forum. In fact, I have finally asked about some things that have puzzled me for years - things I was afraid to ask about in the fundamentalist church for fear of being called "unsaved". I'm new here, too, and new to the universalist approach to faith. Wish I could be of more help to you, I have struggled with many of the same issues you are dealing with. You are not alone. I've found the writings of Frank Schaeffer to be of some help to me. "Patience With God" is a good read.
Quote from: shawn on March 06, 2011, 08:09:41 AM
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted. They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not. We have believers from all walks of life. I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight. I know they have helped me. I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.
I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen. When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments. Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said. If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.
You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with. I hope this doesn't sound harsh. I know I personally care about your spiritual well being. I would say many others do here as well. So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication.
Understood. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. Just want to say that I talk from personal experience. If I haven't personally experienced something, I don't talk about it. That's why I sometimes get zealous in defending my point. Because my personal experience is not an opinion, a point of view or even a belief, it's personal experience and testimony. I would be insulting the Lord if I didn't stick to the facts and defend my testimony...
2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
"Micah is right on the money, if God calls you to do something you are clay and can mold you to have the capabilities and desires to do it. But, God doesn't bless our plans and allow us to run the show. That's not how this faith thing works. Do you trust God? If so, then why would you think that God would have anything but the best for you? If not, then you need to ask yourself why."
I know the truth of my testimony, what He personally told me and the promise He made to me not to force me into anything like marriage or leading against my will because He loves me way to much to do that to me. It's my testimony and personal experience and I will not change it. It's as simple as that. I never said that God bless my plans and allow me to run the show. I said that He doesn't force me into marriage and promised me not to force me into leadership. Leadership and positions in the Kingdom are heavenly REWARDS that won't be forced upon people. People will be free to refuse any of the rewards or trade them. Some people study the Greek and the Hebrew, but they should look up the definition of some english words in the dictionnary. Like the Damnationists who say that punishment is endless. They should look up the definition of punishment in the dictionnary. A punishment is to correct, improve, better an individual. It must serve a purpose. If it's endless and doesn't serve a purpose, it's not punishment, it's torture and abuse. And some people on this board need to look up the definition of reward in the dictionnary. A reward can be accepted or refused, a reward is not an obligation or a burden. I also said that He knew our wants and dreams before the beginning of the world and made some of them part of His plan because He loves us, wants us to be happy in this life and knows that we sometimes need to be motivated. Everything I tell you is testimony and personal experience. Well, I know I'm not lying. He didn't force me into marriage and He gave me intercessory prayer for people. There are things that He just doesn't force on people and He sometimes bless us with things we ask. God is love and He told me that He would never force marriage or leadership upon me. I take Him at His word, no matter what people say. He doesn't force me into marriage because He know that it would seriously damage me and destroy my life because I have been abused too many times. He knows that I just can't take a position of authority, power and numerous responsibilities, that it would end up being bitter, depressed and ressentful. He knows my limits. He would rather have me love Him naturally than force me to love Him. And He knows that I could never love Him again if He forced me in either of those things. You say that there will be no tyranny, or abuse, but you seemed convince that he will completely and totally violate the entire will of all human beings on the planet. Spiritual rape is not love. God decide most things but He gives some freedom of choice. Otherwise, people would be nothing more than puppets and robots, slaves, spiritual raped people wiith no will at all. They wouldn't even have the possibility to think by themselves. They would be zombies. If such a thing was true and God wanted to impose His total will on everyone and everyone was zombies devoid of any will and any choice, then in that case, it would've been best for the race to have never existed. Some people on this board seem convince that this is how God, how Love is. But that's not what I have experienced and that's not the message I've received from Him. And how can you or anyone else be so sure that ruling and reigning with Him is not just some kind of symbology and metaphore? What proof do we have that those few passages are to be taken literally? And many things just doesn't work in that scenario. First, How would you feel if your mother, father or sister crawled on their hands and knees before you and called your "Majesty" and bowed before you all day long and you would be running their entire lives when family members, people of the same blood should be equals? Even friends should be equals. Not anyone here has any guarantee that all their familiy members, all their blood relatives and friends will be ruling and reigning with them. Secondly, the few passages about ruling and reigning say something like, we shall reign with Him. It doesn't say who will rule. If it's the whole human race like some people think, then it makes ruling and reigning completely pointless and ridiculous, for there is no one to serve and follow, therefore there is no one to rule and reign upon. That would also mean that no work will be imperfect and burned and that everyone will get the same reward. I'm not talking about salvation and I'm certainly not a self-righteous Pharisees, but the scriptures clearly say that all will be saved, but some works will be burn and not all will have the same reward(s). Thirdly, Christ is the King. A King doesn't rule and reign over kiings and queens. There can be only one King, one ruler in a Kingdom. Fourth, humans with authority and power, especially adults, can never be trusted. They always want more and mistreat the people. And when you go to people of authority and tell them that you are victim of violence, abuse and injustice, they laugh at you or call you a liar. Fifth, only Jesus should rule and reign. He alone has the perfection and the light to rule us all. And with all the kings and queens around to serve day and night, or people to rule over day and night, no one will ever have time to see Him or spend anytime with Him. And with so many sovereigns it will make his rule rather tasteless and insipid, like salt that has lost its saltiness. And what do you do with Revelation 4:9-11? They throw the crowns at His feet, you alone are worthy of power, honor and glory...
Quote from: MichelleOr He knew before the beginning of the world what our wants and dreams would be and made at least some of them part of His plan. The Fundies have a saying that goes like this: "God doesn't want you happy, He wants you holy." This is absolutely not true. I can assure you that some of our wants and dreams are part of His perfect plan, because contrary to popular belief, He wants us to have some level of happiness in this life and He knows that people need to be motivated sometimes.
Yes.
1The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!
2Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.
3For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.
4He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
5His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.
6For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.
7For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.
--Psa 21
O_O
http://universalistchurch.net/universalist-history/life-and-trance-of-george-debenneville/ :sorry: :crywipe:
:myahoo: :Pray: :bowing:
Quote from: Michelle on March 06, 2011, 07:58:34 AM
to top it all, the feeling that I'm always twenty feet behind all of you. I've been studying UR for two weeks and I only understand half of what I read. Not just because I'm dealing with a lot of problem and have a hard time focussing on anything, but because I'm fairly new to both Christian Universalism (It's been two weeks) and a personal relationship with God (It's been only six months).
I'm new too and although I've been a Christian for over 30 years I'm questioning a lot of things I've taken for granted up to now, so I too feel at a disadvantage in terms of what I know compared to others here. From what I've seen on this forum people are keen to help, and to share the good news of UR in a way that brings peace and joy and reassurance to all.
You have a lot to cope with at the moment and are being very hard on yourself. It may not be a helpful analogy to you, but I often compare God's love for us with that of a parent for a child. I have two wonderful kids. They are not perfect but they are mine and I love them unconditionally, and more than I imagined it was ever possible to love anyone. I don't want them to be continually beating themselves up about the fact that they're not perfect. God doesn't love us more or less depending on how good or bad we are. He loves us because he loves us. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Michelle on March 06, 2011, 12:34:15 PM
O_O
http://universalistchurch.net/universalist-history/life-and-trance-of-george-debenneville/ :sorry: :crywipe:
:myahoo: :Pray: :bowing:
I really enjoyed that. He had a near death experience.
Yes, I read this a month or two ago and really liked it. Actually one of my favorites. The angels ministering is very awesome to me. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jabcat on March 06, 2011, 02:48:37 PM
Yes, I read this a month or two ago and really liked it. Actually one of my favorites. The angels ministering is very awesome to me. :thumbsup:
yes, it's interesting his near death experience kind of went along the lines of what we have been talking about recently--those cast into the outer darkness are the ones in the lake of fire. The root for the word 'lake' means 'safe harbor.'
As any sailor knows, that is the place you go to in a storm for shelter from the wind.
"lake" [of fire]
G3041
λίμνη
limnēlim'-nay
Probably from
G3040 (through the idea of the nearness of shore); a pond (large or small): - lake.
G3040
λιμήν
limēnlee-mane'
Apparently a primary word;
a harbor: - haven. Compare G2568.
"haven"a shelter serving as a place of safety or sanctuary
Quote from: Michelle on March 06, 2011, 09:40:30 AM
Quote from: shawn on March 06, 2011, 08:09:41 AM
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted. They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not. We have believers from all walks of life. I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight. I know they have helped me. I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.
I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen. When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments. Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said. If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.
You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with. I hope this doesn't sound harsh. I know I personally care about your spiritual well being. I would say many others do here as well. So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication.
Understood. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. Just want to say that I talk from personal experience. If I haven't personally experienced something, I don't talk about it. That's why I sometimes get zealous in defending my point. Because my personal experience is not an opinion, a point of view or even a belief, it's personal experience and testimony. I would be insulting the Lord if I didn't stick to the facts and defend my testimony...
2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
No one is saying you can't have your own mind, but you must allow others to have theirs. You can't just insult people because they don't agree with you, no matter how passionately we feel. We can debate doctrine til we are blue in the face but that isn't helpful. You have been indoctrinated enough. You need a functional faith. So, personally I won't debate doctrine with you as I see it not being fruitful. What could be fruitful with you is getting down to the mistrust towards God behind your posts. I think another thing that might be fruitful is finding out why you lack peace and are filled with anxiety.
For me, it's about starting there and that means going back to the basics. Debating theology 501 with you when you are stumbling on the basics (ie God truly loves Michelle and wants the best for her)...is going to bring nothing but frustration from you and the community.
With the risk of sounding like I am trying to dictate others behavior, I hope no member here continues to debate doctrine with you. At least not right now. As much as you believe you know, it's not working for you. If it was, peace, love and grace would be flowing from your posts. That is not what I see.
Do you want a debate or do you want peace? If you want some peace and rest for your weary soul, then you came to the right place. If you came to buck heads with people over doctrine there are plenty of communities that embrace that.
Quote from: Molly on March 06, 2011, 12:21:23 PM
Quote from: MichelleOr He knew before the beginning of the world what our wants and dreams would be and made at least some of them part of His plan. The Fundies have a saying that goes like this: "God doesn't want you happy, He wants you holy." This is absolutely not true. I can assure you that some of our wants and dreams are part of His perfect plan, because contrary to popular belief, He wants us to have some level of happiness in this life and He knows that people need to be motivated sometimes.
Yes.
1The king shall joy in thy strength, O LORD; and in thy salvation how greatly shall he rejoice!
2Thou hast given him his heart's desire, and hast not withholden the request of his lips. Selah.
3For thou preventest him with the blessings of goodness: thou settest a crown of pure gold on his head.
4He asked life of thee, and thou gavest it him, even length of days for ever and ever.
5His glory is great in thy salvation: honour and majesty hast thou laid upon him.
6For thou hast made him most blessed for ever: thou hast made him exceeding glad with thy countenance.
7For the king trusteth in the LORD, and through the mercy of the most High he shall not be moved.
--Psa 21
"Rejoice in the Lord and He shell give you the desires of your heart." Can't remember which book and verse. I rarely do. If I didn't have a disability, I wouldn't have a defective memory. This is extremely frustrating because I can hardly memorize anything and that includes scriptures. I have begged God for months to remedy to that, to cure my defective memory, but apparently the Holy Scriptures must not be high on His list since He doesn't give a damn whether I can memorize them or not. He didn't cure me. And people who can't memorize scriptures cannot do spiritual warfare. Which means that they can hardly resist temptation, demonic suggestion and stand in trials, aka easy prey for demonic spirits. I will never understand why God prevents me from being prepared for the worse. Maybe He just love when I am weak, vulnerable and fall flat on my face. And people who can't memorize scriptures can hardly minister to anyone. All I can do is send links and hope people will check them and learn by themselves. If God wants me to be an effective servant and minister, why does He keep me in a state of uselessness, unpreparedness and physical hindrances? If He really loved me, He wouldn't do this to me. Let my handicaps make me a big useless, hindered servant, instead of curing me, preparing me and using me...
Quote from: shawn on March 06, 2011, 04:27:29 PM
Quote from: Michelle on March 06, 2011, 09:40:30 AM
Quote from: shawn on March 06, 2011, 08:09:41 AM
Michelly, first TM is a site like no other I have visted. They welcome those who are hurting, the abused, the misguided, those of like mind and those who are not. We have believers from all walks of life. I think there is a good base built upon faith who are filled with spiritual insight. I know they have helped me. I hope I have helped a few along the way as well.
I say this because it seems you want to talk, but don't care to listen. When faced with suggestions you seem to meet them with resistance and arguments. Maybe I shouldn't say anything but I think there comes a time when things need said. If you want answers and help, it's staring you in the face.
You are very welcome here but I think it would benefit you to listen, think, and pray about some of the things you are being presented with. I hope this doesn't sound harsh. I know I personally care about your spiritual well being. I would say many others do here as well. So, please show the membership here enough respect to listen and reciprocate healthy communication.
Understood. But that doesn't mean I have to agree with everything. Just want to say that I talk from personal experience. If I haven't personally experienced something, I don't talk about it. That's why I sometimes get zealous in defending my point. Because my personal experience is not an opinion, a point of view or even a belief, it's personal experience and testimony. I would be insulting the Lord if I didn't stick to the facts and defend my testimony...
2 Corinthians 13:8 For we can do nothing against the truth, but for the truth.
No one is saying you can't have your own mind, but you must allow others to have theirs. You can't just insult people because they don't agree with you, no matter how passionately we feel. We can debate doctrine til we are blue in the face but that isn't helpful. You have been indoctrinated enough. You need a functional faith. So, personally I won't debate doctrine with you as I see it not being fruitful. What could be fruitful with you is getting down to the mistrust towards God behind your posts. I think another thing that might be fruitful is finding out why you lack peace and are filled with anxiety.
For me, it's about starting there and that means going back to the basics. Debating theology 501 with you when you are stumbling on the basics (ie God truly loves Michelle and wants the best for her)...is going to bring nothing but frustration from you and the community.
With the risk of sounding like I am trying to dictate others behavior, I hope no member here continues to debate doctrine with you. At least not right now. As much as you believe you know, it's not working for you. If it was, peace, love and grace would be flowing from your posts. That is not what I see.
Do you want a debate or do you want peace? If you want some peace and rest for your weary soul, then you came to the right place. If you came to buck heads with people over doctrine there are plenty of communities that embrace that.
One of the reasons I hardly trust God is I can't even entrust my family to Him. My mother and sister are still unsaved and all of my praying and begging of the last few months are not giving any result, so He clearly doesn't give a damn about them. In one of his articles, Gary said that very few people will be saved and born again in this life. We both know that punishment in this life is the lesser of the two punishments, the worst being the lake of fire. If my family is not saved in this life and end up in the lake of fire, then it'll be all God'd fault because He wouldn't have been a responsible enough Father to save them in this life, so they will get the worst of the two punishment and it'll be all His fault, for not saving them in this life, directing their steps and teaching them where they were wrong. That means they will go through unnecessary suffering in the lake of fire and all this because He didn't take His responsibilities. It's unfair and disgusting to punish people when you don't take your responsibilities. Everyone should be saved in this life so that no one would ever have to go in the lake of fire at all. If God punishes people because He didn't take His responsibilities and save them in this life, then He's an unfair, unjust and unrighteous judge. If God got everyone saved in this life, hell and the lake of fire would be totally unnecessary. He's the one who responsible for people's salvation. People should never be punished because Daddy Almighty didn't take His responsibilities. Also, if He got rid of evil and sin, hell and the lake of fire would be totally unnecessary too. No one would ever have to go in there at all. And if God creates, do and control all evil and planned everything from the start, then why punishing people for their sins at all? People are not responsible for their sins if He planned all of their sinful actions and evil deeds before the beginning of the world. People were programmed to do those things against their will to serve His divine agenda. Punishing people for doing what He planned for them when they had no control over their actions, no say in the matter is simply too sick and disgusting to contemplate. People are not sinners, they are victims. Even the most evil of all beings is a victim. Satan was created evil. He was a mankiller and a liar from the start. A tool, a puppet, a victim. God created evil, sin and willed the fall of mankind. But everyone blames Adam, Eve and Satan. And the Bible says that Satan and the fallen angels will be destroyed, when they only did what God intended to do. What's fair about that? Maybe some of you have no problem with that, but I do! The Fundamentalists and the Calvinists certainly don't. They blame everything on the victims. According to them, Satan acted independently of God, out of God's will. And they call us heretics? The true heresy is to give credits to Satan for evil and sin and say that God is not in control.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/TheProblemofEvil.html
http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d031002.htm
Also, let's use our brains. You can't create and do evil unless you are part evil yourself. God is not 100% pure good, 100% pure righteousness and 100% pure love. If He was 100% pure love, people who cry in agony would not be met with silence, they wouldn't be ignored, abandonned and they wouldn't spend their whole mortal lives in total, ceaseless suffering, like those who have cancer or mental illness. Secondly, God is not and cannot be perfect. Perfection is the absence of evil. You can't create and do evil unless you are part evil yourself and if you are part evil yourself, you can't be perfect. If the Creator is duality, both good and evil, then He's not different and no better than His created beings. He's not different from humans and He's no better than humans. He's even worse considering the fact that He creates and do all evil. How could He ever be trusted? He's no more trustworthy than any human. In fact, considering the fact that He creates and do all evil, it would be wiser for me to put my confidence in man instead, the lesser of the two evils. The victim rather than the author.
It's even worse than that...
"In this example, we see God as the Divine Potter, the great Creator of all, insisting upon His right to do either good or evil toward His creatures, and He exercises this right all through the Scriptures."
"Hath not the potter power over the clay, of the same lump to make one vessel unto honour, and another unto dishonour?"
"Of the same lump. There is nothing in the basic material of the two vessels to make one different from the other—the difference lies in the design of the potter. There is no reason within themselves why one should be a lamb and the other a tiger. It is not the lamb's fault or the tiger's fault that they were made thus. Out of the same lump of clay, which God turned into humanity, He can produce in the same generation a Cain and an Abel—a Cain who is self-centered and an Abel who is full of faith—a Cain who is a murderer and an Abel who is a servant of God. Out of the same lump, out of the same kneading, He can produce a self-righteous Pharisee and a self-abnegating Publican."
Satan, Judas, Pharaoh, they were all victims of God exercising His "right" to do either good or evil toward His creatures. It's nothing but a game for Him and people are His toys. He just doesn't care how many people get hurt. He's only "exercising His right" to do good or evil toward His creatures. Just for the heck and the fun of it. "Exercising His right." What about His created beings's right not to be toys and not to be unjustly done wrong to? There is certainly no love in this. Notice that God doesn't talk about love, but "His right to do good or evil" to His created toys. Just for the heck of exercising His right.
"Yes, the same God Who made the lamb also made the tiger. The God Who made the lovely flowers also made the nettles with their stings. The God Who made the harmless worm also made the poisonous serpent. The God Who made the good, made the evil, too."
"Why be reconciled to God? We should be reconciled to God because God is responsible for evil and suffering in the world. He created it. He made the world system since creation. God chooses not to stop the evil in the world — not yet. In fact in the present era evil will grow worse and worse as we approach the moment of Christ's return (2 Timothy 3:13)."
Now ask yourself why I can't trust God...
He does evil in judgment (Daniel 9:11–14)...
Another reason why I don't trust Him. Adam and Eve were programmed to eat that fruit because He willed the fall of mankind, and God is so hypocrite, that He says to Adam and Eve: "What have you done?" And then He punished them for doing what He planned from the start. They had no control over their actions, no say in the matter. They did what they were programmed to do, what He planned for them. It's like forcing a child to lie and steal and then turn around and slap Him in the face, punishing him for something you planned all along. God certainly isn't a fair, just and righteous judge. He punishes people for things that weren't even their fault. He planned all this and the victims get the punishment. In light of all this, we can say that people will be punished only for doing what He planned from the start and for doing what He programmed them to do. An unfair, disgusting and unjust punishment. The only one who deserves punishment is God Himself. He should judge, condemn and punish Himself for creating sin and evil and planning all sinful actions and evil deeds from the start. Satan, Judas, Pharaoh, they were all punished only for doing what He planned from the start, for doing what they were programmed to do. In light of all this, how can we be sure that the Fundies and the church are wrong? There is only one step between that and eternal punishment. God is behind everything and then He blames His victims and punishes them. Ask me again why I can trust God...
"Then comes the judgment, which for most people will not be such a bad thing considering their ordinary circumstances in life."
Boy is he dead wrong about that one...
You think it can't get any worse than that? You are dead wrong!
"I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the Lord do all these things. Drop down, you heavens, from above, and let the skies pour down righteousness: let the earth open, and let them bring forth salvation, and let righteousness spring up together; I the Lord have created it. Woe to him that strives with his Maker! Let the potsherd strive with the potsherds of the earth. Shall the clay say to him that fashions it, 'What make you?' or your work, He has no hands? Woe to him that says to his father, 'What begat you?' or to the woman, 'What have you brought forth?'" Isaiah 45:7–10
"The opposites of light/darkness, and peace/evil in this passage indicate that God is in control of everything and everyone, and that He has a purpose for each person. He is the Maker. He does "all these things."
"To paraphrase what God told Job, "I will do what I will do, when I will do it, because I am God." End of discussion."
God creates the tiger and the wolf, the murderer like Cain, the traitor like Judas and the tyran Pharaoh. But they weren't evil from the start, like Satan. Many of them became evil in their adults lives, because that's how God planned it. See what I'm getting at? You and I could could become thieves, tyrans, rapists, traitors or murderers any minute now. It might very well be part of His plan for us to attack, rape, slaughter, destroy, etc. How would you feel if one of these days, you woke up with blood on your hands because it was all part of God's plan for you to harm or murder someone at that very specific moment of your life? Wouldn't you feel sick to your stomach? You would be left to deal with the guilt and sorrow for the rest of your entire life and nothing of what God would say would ever make you feel better. Could you ever trust Him again if that ever happen? And don't tell me yes, because no one could ever cope with that. Sure He could erase your memory. That would be even worse, He would only add to the evil He did by hidding it. you think I want to be a thief, a tyran, a rapist, a traitor or a murderer. That could happen any minute now. It might very well be in His plan for me. And I would never be able to stop Him. I would be mentally, emotionally and spiritually raped and violated into doing things against my will and left to deal with the consequences for the rest of my life. Violated, polluted, overtaken by the evil He planned for me, prepared for me...
Again, ask yourself why I can't trust God.
His evil side could take over His good side anytime now. He would be an out-of-control, unstoppable enemy. We would all be deceived, harmed and destroyed. Some people talked about the end times and the return of Jesus on TV. They said that Jesus would return and totally blow a fuse. That He would turn inti a wrathful, schizophrenic, enraged, wild beast, slaughter billions of people and cover His flesh and white garment in blood. He could become extremely dangerous and He would be unstoppable. An extrenely dangerous threat to the whole species and no one would be able to stop Him. How could a being who creates and do evil could ever be trusted? How a being part evil who could blow a fuse anytime could ever be trusted?
You wanted to know about my concerns, you have them...
You care about my spiritual well-being? You want me to find peace and rest? Then I suggest you start giving me some answers. Because I am so tortured now, you have no idea...
Quote from: Michelle on March 09, 2011, 11:36:54 AM
You care about my spiritual well-being? You want me to find peace and rest? Then I suggest you start giving me some answers...
Michelle, who are you arguing with?
Like I said Michelle, I won't debate doctrine with you. But suffice it to say, I wouldn't agree with much of what you said. Your anger towards God is apparent. And for some believers that's part of the journey.
Am I concerned about your spiritual well-being? Absolutely. Do I have all the answers...not even close. Do I hope that you can find the rest you so desperately need? Yes I do.
Have I had questions similar to the ones you are asking...yes. Have I ever had problems trusting God? Yes. Did I get all the answers before I found peace...nope.
All I know is this...we all have our histories. I have told my story in parts and it's also filled with pain. Some of that pain was inflicted by others but most was inflicted by myself. Am I concerned about loved ones in this life and after death? Absolutely.
What I know is this...none of us have this all worked out. I doubt any of us know what the LoF really is and what it entails. But, I have gained peace with knowing whatever temporal pain there is in this life or the next will be put in it's proper perspective through eternal joy of living with Christ for eternity. I gained much peace with that.
My life came to a crisis point. Either I was going to live by faith...true faith...not because I had everything worked out and I approved of God's methods. Or, I was going to go serve the world and die. I faced two options...joy/peace paved with faith...or insanity and death paved with anger, anxiety and mistrust. By the grace of God I chose the first.
So, if you are looking to me, or anyone to give you the answers you will be greatly disappointed. But, if you want to learn to live by faith, I know of no better community that can help that grow in you. The first step to faith for me was a broken surrendering. I just gave up. I gave up trying to figure it all out and I just cried out to God. It didn't happen over night. But, it began a wonderful process of growth that continues to this day.
I truly love you as a sister in Christ and I want this faith for you. Are you not tired? You sound exhausted.
"Your anger towards God is apparent. And for some believers that's part of the journey."
Well, what did you expect, Shawn? I just wish I could go back believing the lie of Satan being behind all the evil in the world because my relationship with Jesus was easier then. Why did He had to... And I'm sick and tired of living with all that boiling anger inside. It seems that Jesus just doesn't keep His promises. I've been praying for weeks asking to be ridden of my anger issue, but He apparently didn't do a thing about it because it's back full force. So much for, ask and you shall receive, and whatsoever you ask in your prayer, I will do it. He knows that anger is not only damaging, but also dangerous, because it's a major door opener for demonic oppression. But He just doesn't solve the problem...
"Am I concerned about loved ones in this life and after death? Absolutely. What I know is this...none of us have this all worked out. I doubt any of us know what the LoF really is and what it entails. But, I have gained peace with knowing whatever temporal pain there is in this life or the next will be put in it's proper perspective through eternal joy of living with Christ for eternity. I gained much peace with that."
If my mother and sister are sent there because He didn't take His responsibility and saved them in this life, it'll be all His fault. Only He can save them and teach them to live better lives. And if they are sent there, I'm going in there with them. And God better let me go with them. I want to suffer with my mother and my sister and be by their side. It's my choice. If He REALLY is love, He will let me go in there with them. If He cannot understand that, then He doesn't know the first thing about love. Might as well not have died on the cross...
"My life came to a crisis point. Either I was going to live by faith...true faith...not because I had everything worked out and I approved of God's methods. Or, I was going to go serve the world and die. I faced two options...joy/peace paved with faith...or insanity and death paved with anger, anxiety and mistrust. By the grace of God I chose the first.
So, if you are looking to me, or anyone to give you the answers you will be greatly disappointed. But, if you want to learn to live by faith, I know of no better community that can help that grow in you. The first step to faith for me was a broken surrendering. I just gave up. I gave up trying to figure it all out and I just cried out to God. It didn't happen over night. But, it began a wonderful process of growth that continues to this day."
Thanks for the advice, but It's not that easy, Shawn. It's just not that easy. Maybe it was for you, but not for me. One of my gifts of the Holy Spirit is the gift of mercy. There are too many people suffering all over the world and it's driving me crazy. If I didn't have that disability, if I wasn't handiccaped, if I could take a job, if I didn't have a tight budget, if I could orient myself and travel, then I'd be able to alleviate the suffering of countless people and I would have money to give for the sick and the poor. But hindrances is all there is in my life. That's all God filled my life with, hindrances. He made me a totally useless servant. I can't help anyone, can't make myself useful, I cannot alleviate the pain of others. I can't do anything useful. I'm cursed. Don't you get that? I can't make a difference in other people's lives. Heck, I can't even improve my own life. Whatever I do, I'll always be the most useless servant of Jesus Christ. And all this because He won't remove the hindrances and ACTUALLY use me...
"I truly love you as a sister in Christ and I want this faith for you."
Well, you can at least TRY to convince Him to give it to me. Our pathetic, weak, human faith is nothing. We have no faith of our own, just like we have no strength of our own. If He won't give me HIS faith, it's not like I can force Him into it. I have neglected my prayer life a lot these past few days, because like it happened so many times in my life, it just seem that my prayer fall upon deaf ears. So what's the point of trying again? Everything feels hopeless. I don't even know how to really communicate with Him and build a better relationship with Him. I've never had any kind of relationship. I just suck at it. Thanks for caring. I just wish I could go back to that state of pure, perfect love and peace that I walked in for three days straight... until God cut the juice...
"Are you not tired? You sound exhausted."
You can do that too? I thought I was the only one. I too can pick up vibes from people just by reading what they write. I never told anyone about it, because when I tell people about my differences, they call me a freak. Exhausted? That's all I ever am now, exhausted. So exhausted... :sigh:
Quote from: jabcat on March 09, 2011, 11:49:43 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 09, 2011, 11:36:54 AM
You care about my spiritual well-being? You want me to find peace and rest? Then I suggest you start giving me some answers...
Michelle, who are you arguing with?
No arguing, James. Shawn asked me about my mistrust and my anxiety, I gave him an answer. There is no arguing.
Hi Michelle,
Sometimes I ask God why about things that happen in this world but I am thankful I haven't gotten to the point that you have gotten. It must be really frustrating and mind boggling for someone to think the things you think about God. I can only imagine what you are enduring.
Personally, just knowing that God is in control of all situations and that he is working it all out for the best of mankind,...even though it might not seem like it at this time,...brings me peace of mind. Even though we have to deal with all the evil in the world and in our own lives there will come a time when all of this will be gone and only good will remain. This is what I try to focus on.
Michelle, God gave us good and bad for our learning,...the tree of good and evil,...we are experiencing and seeing the bad in this life, from which is making us sons of God which is the good. So, in the end the good wins!!! You are only focusing on the now, {bad} shouldn't we look to the end result and thank God for the good?
CHB
Quote from: CHB on March 09, 2011, 04:54:16 PM
Hi Michelle,
Sometimes I ask God why about things that happen in this world but I am thankful I haven't gotten to the point that you have gotten. It must be really frustrating and mind boggling for someone to think the things you think about God. I can only imagine what you are enduring.
Personally, just knowing that God is in control of all situations and that he is working it all out for the best of mankind,...even though it might not seem like it at this time,...brings me peace of mind. Even though we have to deal with all the evil in the world and in our own lives there will come a time when all of this will be gone and only good will remain. This is what I try to focus on.
Michelle, God gave us good and bad for our learning,...the tree of good and evil,...we are experiencing and seeing the bad in this life, from which is making us sons of God which is the good. So, in the end the good wins!!! You are only focusing on the now, {bad} shouldn't we look to the end result and thank God for the good?
CHB
This is seasoned with much wisdom. I would have to say my views are identical to this concerning "why bad things happen". I try to focus on the good, the beautiful, and the loving things in this life. I fill my mind with such things. I have done the other...I have been angry and confused. And Michelle, I don't have any special powers but I can put myself in your shoes. I know exhausted when I hear it or read it. Do you even sleep? I was up last night pulling a 24 hour shift so I have an excuse. :bigGrin:
What this boils down to is asking ourselves about the fruit of our thought life. Is it working for you? Is it a functional faith or do you wax and wane between this trembling fearful love of God and this anger.
I really can't be your therapist, but let me offer a possible insight. I don't think you are mad at God. You have unforgiveness which is rotting you from the inside out. You have unresolved pain which is killing you. God is just an easy place for you to project. There is little doubt in my mind that you suffer from a crippling anxiety disorder. Some of that might be genetic but I think much was learned through abuse and pain.
You are starting at the wrong place...you want all your questions answered. That's not how this will work for you. I
highly suggest seeking a professional Christian counselor. Don't take this like I think you are "crazy". I don't. But, I do think you are going to need some help processing some things. Once that happens you will start asking the right questions.
Michelle, I am one of Jesus' little brothers.
I have a question, why are you so afraid? Perfect Love casts out fear, yet you are so afraid. This surely means that God has not invaded you, because you have not let him in as the gentleman who is knocking on the door, requesting to come in, and cast out that fear which keeps you so imprisoned, and so angry at him.
Please do not be afraid anymore. Fear, go away in the name of Christ.
"And Michelle, I don't have any special powers but I can put myself in your shoes."
Picking up vibes from people just be reading what they say has nothing to do with special powers. I don't know why I have this ability, I just do. I can tell how people feel or pick up their tone of voice just by reading what they say, even if they are not explicit about it.
"I know exhausted when I hear it or read it. Do you even sleep? I was up last night pulling a 24 hour shift so I have an excuse."
That's what I said. You have the same ability. You can read people in what they write. Well, you get the picture. Do I even sleep? Sure I do. During the day. I'm a night owl, most of the time. It's so quiet at night. I love to study the TM material all night, between prayer and a Bible study. I'm exhausted these days because I'm dealing with too many issues and too many emotions at the same time. That's another I should ask God about. I'm curious as to why our spirits have such an impact on our physical bodies, why issues and emotions the spirit deals with result in physical exhaustion. Unless it's another lie or illusion fabricated by the carnal mind. What do I know. Maybe the physical body is never exhausted and it's only a percetion. Is the spirit really attached, linked to the flesh body? Do they really affect each others? I have also noticed that lack of exercise and good food for the physical body has an impact on the spirit. So possibly it works both ways. If only the Bible told us more about these things, but no. Jesus left us no Biblical instructions and teachings on how God created our bodies and spirits, how they work and how to remain healthy physically, mentally and spiritually. And all the teachings and instructions we have on that, we have just no way to know if they truly are from Jesus because they don't come from the Bible but from secular material like books written by just about anybody. Many lying spirits and ascended masters are walking around just waiting to deceive people. Many books are written by new-agers, and here's a good word of advice, stay away from that stuff. There are deceivers and liars everywhere. Even some so-called "Christian Universalist" groups spread false teachings. Like the CUA who teach Theosis. That eventually humans will become gods or divine. It's an heresy and a satanic lie.
Genesis 3:5 For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and you shall be as gods, knowing good and evil.
All teachings about humans becoming gods or divine are false teachings. Those people at CUA are false Christian Universalists. Stay away from any group that teaches Theosis (divinization). They even lie about where the teaching comes from:
http://www.christianuniversalist.org/faq.html#faith
"We see salvation as more of a process of growth and transformation of the soul to become one with the Christ Spirit, rather than being saved from God's anger and the threat of punishment. This concept, called "theosis" (Greek for divinization) is the original teaching of the Bible and most of the early church fathers about human nature and destiny, which was mostly lost in the Western churches (Catholic and Protestant) but has been retained to some limited degree in the Eastern Orthodox churches.
Our strong belief in divinization is only one way in which the CUA seeks to return to the teachings and practices of the early church. In general, we seek to educate Christians about the prevailing beliefs of the apostolic and patristic era of Christian history, and the great work of early systematic theologians such as Origen of Alexandria. We wish to return to the roots of Christianity rather than blindly accepting the later distortions of Augustine and Roman Church theology, and the errors that were passed on into Protestantism. The Universalist Gospel has been taught by many Christians during the past 2000 years, and is a major historical faith tradition."
True Christian Universalism like the one taught here at TM has nothing to do with such false teachings, like Theosis (divinization). I've read many of the TM articles and none of them talked about that kind of stuff. If you ask me, the CUA and the likes of them are new-agers disguise as Christian Universalists, or new-agers with some kind of universalist belief. But they are to be avoid. They are being deceived by acended masters (fallen angels)...
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/universalism-refuted.htm
"There is a Universalism taught in what is commonly called the “New Age Movement.” They speak of a cosmic Christ, an ascended Master, one among many other ascended masters. Among the names given as ascended masters by these various New Age groups are: Sanat Kumara, Jesus, Kuthumi, Lanello, Clara Louise, Kuan, Yin Afra, Igor, Venus, El Morya, Lanto, Paul the Venetian, Serapis Bey, Hilarion, Nada, Saint Germain, and Maha Chohan.
This is NOT the universalism of Tentmaker Ministries, or true Christian Universalism. We have nothing to do with the various forms of the New Age Movement. There is only one Name under heaven by which one must be saved as far as Gary Amirault and Tentmaker Ministries goes -- that name is Jesus the Christ (English), Yeshua Ha Machiach (Hebrew), Iesus Christos (Greek). There are no “ascended masters” as far as we are concerned. Everything we believe centers around the Father of Creation, His Son Whom the Father sent to redeem the world and His Holy Spirit, Whom Jesus sent to “lead us into all truth.”
The Cosmic Christ/ascended master he's talking about is a false Christ and goes by the name of Sonanda. God sent me a warning in the form of a dream. There are at least two dozens of ascended masters, maybe more. The most dangerous and powerful ones are Sonanda and Metatron. They are superior in rank and power. That's all I can tell you from what I've gathered from that dream/warning from God...
I would like to have some of what you got a hold of. :laughing7:
Michelle, that might be the calmest most well reasoned post you have written since coming here.
A few things I can give an educated opinion about is the human body and it's connection with the thought life. Taking care of the body is one very helpful component to taking care of the soul which seems to effect the spiritual life. People wear their mentality through their physical being. For instance, with something like Fibromyalgia, it's mainly a disease of females. These afflicted individuals tend to have a great deal of depression and insomnia. They wear their stress with physical pain. At one time, due to physician ignorance about the disease it was believed by many to be fabricated. But, we know that different organ systems such as the intestinal track have some receptors similar to the brain...ie serotonin. It's reasonable to believe that the muscle pain that these individuals feel is a direct result of their depressive state. Skin problems, gastric ulcers, memory, cognitive abilities, viral flare ups, the immune system etc are all effected by not only mind state, but nutrition and quality sleep.
So, when approached by someone like yourself with a painful history, physical, and mental symptoms it's important that I address multiple areas. If you can get someone on a regular exercise and sleep regimen that is a terrific physical base with which to build. If they suffer from obesity, helping them to lose weight and decrease cortisol levels is very helpful. I truly believe it's easier to approach emotional trauma when the body is healthy. Then Christian counseling, or some sort of support group is so essential. The socialization alone is extremely helpful. We are not meant to be locked up away from people. But, being able to express yourself, and work things out in a safe environment is extremely beneficial. Retraining our brains not to obsess, depress or oppress doesn't happen over night but I assure you it can be done.
This is a solid base in which our spiritual life has the best chance to flourish. I don't know how it works but our body, soul and spirit are intimately connected. When one is sick, other parts are likely to suffer.
Prayer, Bible study and worship time is so crucial to my mental health for the day. Staying balanced in my life doesn't come naturally to me. But, God has been working on me for quite sometime. I don't know how God did it but he just seemed to remove the questions. The best way I can describe it is a child like faith with an adult understanding. I study and try to work out things but it doesn't bother me like it used to when I can't work it out right away. I live in the knowing that I am in the hands of God. Even if trouble enters into my life he will use it to better me. I know that any suffering I feel or the world feels will be brought into it's proper perspective when we are with him. I take great comfort in that. I must live in that, because if I let the anxieties of the world overwhelm me I am miserable. Today I wish to live in his rest, and by the grace of God I will.
This is extremely interesting:
http://www.danielrevelationbiblestudies.com/mistaken_id.htm
Along with that:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
So many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. The Fundies should definitely catch on on this one. They always have a "we're in the end times" mentality. Even if it was true, it's unhealthy to dwell on these things. I really don't need to add that to all the issues I'm working on...
And thank you very much for the infos and the advices, Shawn...
Quote from: Michelle on March 10, 2011, 09:03:23 AM
This is extremely interesting:
http://www.danielrevelationbiblestudies.com/mistaken_id.htm
Along with that:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
So many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. The Fundies should definitely catch on on this one. They always have a "we're in the end times" mentality. Even if it was true, it's unhealthy to dwell on these things. I really don't need to add that to all the issues I'm working on...
And thank you very much for the infos and the advices, Shawn...
What are you really looking for in the way of information on what is it that you are disgruntled about? Or better, what do you want to hear? For me, and I have not read all, but what I have rushed over, it is quite like a saber fight, and you deem the upper hand of knowledge that your opponent is in lacking. It would seem to me you are fighting what we, here, believe to be truth, and you argue, debate, or post that we, here on this site lack what you are trying to convey. You have the answeres and no matter what we may counter we are incorrect and you are right. Who are you?
Still not convinced that the Vatican is the whore of Babylonia? Not only do they wear purple and scarlet, they borrowed sun worshipping from the Azteks and introduced it into the Vatican. You should do research on Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz. Semiramis and Tammuz are the fake Mary and fake baby Jesus of the Roman Catholic Church. And most Catholics don't even know about this. The Vatican christianized pagan doctrines and rituals, hell is one of them. The king Nimrod, Semiramis' husband is one of the founders of Freemasonry, maybe even the main one. And for those who don't already know it, Freemasonry = Satanism. Semiramis was a queen who, to control the people, made them believe she had been impregnated by some divine power and that her son was a god. She came up with a fake trinity Nimrod/Semiramis/Tammuz. It's obvious that their main goal was to destroy Christianity. Because of them, many atheists or pagans think that Christianity is a false religion, plagiarized. Read Ezekiel 8 and check these:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nimrod
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Semiramis
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tammuz_(deity)
Also, read the book of Exodus.
Exodus 5:
7 Ye shall no more give the people straw to make brick, as heretofore: let them go and gather straw for themselves.
8 And the tale of the bricks, which they did make heretofore, ye shall lay upon them; ye shall not diminish ought thereof: for they be idle; therefore they cry, saying, Let us go and sacrifice to our God.
14 And the officers of the children of Israel, which Pharaoh's taskmasters had set over them, were beaten, and demanded, Wherefore have ye not fulfilled your task in making brick both yesterday and to day, as heretofore?
16 There is no straw given unto thy servants, and they say to us, Make brick: and, behold, thy servants are beaten; but the fault is in thine own people.
17 But he said, Ye are idle, ye are idle: therefore ye say, Let us go and do sacrifice to the LORD.
18 Go therefore now, and work; for there shall no straw be given you, yet shall ye deliver the tale of bricks.
19 And the officers of the children of Israel did see that they were in evil case, after it was said, Ye shall not minish ought from your bricks of your daily task.
It all started with the Pharaohs, masonry, slavery, tyranny and occultism and it can be found in the Bible...
"Satan and Masonry have the exact same goals. The secret goal of Masonry is to subjugate the world for Masonry, and be like God. Satan 'sold' this same lie (you are a God) to Eve in Eden, and he sold this same lie to the Masons."
"Ex-33 degree Mason Jim Shaw says; "The Blue Lodge Mason is taught that the "G" in the basic Masonic symbol represents God. Later on, he is told that it represents "deity". Later still, he is told that it represents "geometry". In reality, this letter represents the "generative principle," the Sun-god and, thus, the worshipped phallus, the male "generative principle..." In its position (along with the square and compass) on the east wall over the chair (throne) of the Worshipful Master, it is the representation of the Sun, thus of the Sun-god, Osiris. Its earthly meaning, then, is of the sacred phallus; its cosmic meaning is of the Sun, worshipped since antiquity by pagans while facing the East. Reference, book: The Deadly Deception", page 144"
What does that tell you? Both the Vatican and the Freemasons are into sun worshipping. Mmm, what are the odds, huh?
"Masons have mixed idolatry, paganism, the occult, Gnosticism, Kabala, fertility cults, Satanism, spiritualism, demonology, and put it into a blender and come up with the Masonic religion. It is not of God! It is a false religion; the Harlot of Babylon. Masons say they offer new candidates "the light". The light they are actually giving is: Lucifer. The Christian Bible says that Satan walks to and fro on this earth masquerading as an "angel of light", that many might be deceived."
"Paine, like Franklin, was a Deist. He believed in one God, but rejected all religions, saying: "My own mind is my own church." He also maintained an interested in Freemasonry. His pamphlet, Origin Of Free-Masonry, proposed that Masonry's embodiment of the sun worship of ancient Druidism was a legitimate alternative to Christianity. He notes that Freemasonry's god, "...Osiris and Isis, theologically represented the Supreme Being and universal Nature..."
The ancient egyptian fake trinity of Osiris, Isis and Horus were borrowed from the ancient mesopotamia's first fake trinity with Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz.
The Vatican is the whore of Babylonia. The proofs are everywhere and can easily be found on the Internet...
Some Fundies who are not very bright, think that our doctrine of UR is of the Freemasons:
"Masonic heresy of Universality
The Masonic heresy of Universality raises a more serious question: What "god" is this that allows acceptance of the followers of Baal and these other pagan deities as brethren? This is certainly not the God of the Bible. Another 180-degree reversal of what is taught in Scripture....
Don't think for a moment that when Masons refer to the Supreme Architect of the Universe or God, they are referring to Yahweh or His Son Jesus."
*Sarcastic* Yeah, right. Because we worship Satan, ascended masters and practice occultism, witchcraft and idolatry... Not very bright indeed... They even say it wrong. It's Universalism, not Universality...
The ful article is there:
Christians Beware - of Freemasonry: http://www.bibleprobe.com/freemasonry.htm
Never doubt it. The Vatican is indeed the whore of Babylonia...
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 10, 2011, 09:49:38 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 10, 2011, 09:03:23 AM
This is extremely interesting:
http://www.danielrevelationbiblestudies.com/mistaken_id.htm
Along with that:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
So many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. The Fundies should definitely catch on on this one. They always have a "we're in the end times" mentality. Even if it was true, it's unhealthy to dwell on these things. I really don't need to add that to all the issues I'm working on...
And thank you very much for the infos and the advices, Shawn...
What are you really looking for in the way of information on what is it that you are disgruntled about? Or better, what do you want to hear? For me, and I have not read all, but what I have rushed over, it is quite like a saber fight, and you deem the upper hand of knowledge that your opponent is in lacking. It would seem to me you are fighting what we, here, believe to be truth, and you argue, debate, or post that we, here on this site lack what you are trying to convey. You have the answeres and no matter what we may counter we are incorrect and you are right. Who are you?
I never said that you were incorrect. I don't say that. Just because I disagree doesn't mean that you are incorrect. It doesn't necessarily mean that I'm incorrect either. When I talk about my testimony, I know that I'm right in the things I say. I'm dealing with some issues, right now, Micah. That might not be your case, but Shawn and James have been nice to me while all you do is attack me because I disagree with some of the things you said. You show no compassion. When you have answered my posts on Bible atrocities, you bluntly told me that the compassion "of our natural mind" is quite useless in our regeneration and growth in the Spirit, as if compassion wasn't compassion, that we had to forsake our common sense (tell that to those who took part in the Crusades or so many religious wars) and that people had nothing to do with the outcome, as if we didn't matter when in fact He cares enough about our happiness in this life to give us some of the things we ask for and even not force things upon us when we ask Him not to like He didn't force me into marriage and to top it all you tried to force on me your belief that He always force things on people when that's not even true. I can testify of that. I'm going through a hard time and am in a learning process just like everyone else on this planet. It's not easy for me, especially considering everything I've been put through in the last few months. So don't take this the wrong way, but please, lay off my back. If you want to have a nice conversation, okay. But if you want to be rude, then please, just don't talk to me.
Sincerely,
Michelle.
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#101
"IMPORTANT FACTS
The following are only a few of the reasons why Sheol-Hadees in the Old Testament denotes a condition of temporal punishment:
1 Hell is in this world. The Lowest Hell is on earth. Deut. xxxii:22,24,25. "For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest Hell (Sheol--Hadees) and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains." See Jonah ii:2; Rev. vi:8.
2 Hence David, after having been in Hell, was delivered from it. Ps. xxx:3; II Sam. xx:5,6. "O Lord, thou hast brought up my soul from the grave; thou hast kept me alive, that I should not go down to the pit. When the waves of death compassed me, the floods of ungodly men made me afraid. The sorrows of Hell (Sheol--Hadees) compassed me about; the snares of death prevented me," so that there is escape from Hell. Ps. xviii:5,6; cxvi:3; lxxxvi:12,13; Rev. xx:13; Ps. xvii:5, xxx:3.
3 Jonah was in the fish only seventy hours, and declared he was in hell forever. He escaped from Hell. Jon. ii:2, 6: "Out of the belly of Hell (Sheol--Hadees) cried I, and thou heardest my voice, earth with her bars was about me forever." Even an eternal Hell lasted but three days.
4 It is a place where God is, and, therefore, must be an instrumentality of mercy. Ps. cxxxix:8: "If I make my bed in Hell (Sheol--Hadees) behold thou art there."
5 Men having gone into it are redeemed from it. I Sam. ii:6: "The Lord killeth and maketh alive; he bringeth down to the grave (Sheol--Hadees) and bringeth up."
6 Sheol is precisely the same word as Saul. If it meant Hell would any Hebrew parent have called his child Sheol? Think of calling a boy Hell!
7 Nowhere in the Old Testament does the word Sheol, or its Greek equivalent, Hadees, ever denote a place or condition of suffering after death; it either means literal death or temporal calamity. This is clear as we consult the usage.
8 Jacob wished to go there. Gen.xxxviii:35: "I will go down into the grave (Sheol--Hadees) unto my son mourning."
9 If the word means a place of endless punishment, then David was a monster. Ps. lv:15: "Let death seize upon them, and let them go down quick into Sheol--Hadees."
10 Job desired to go there; xiv:13: "Oh that thou wouldst hide me in Sheol--Hadees."
11 Hezekiah expected to go there. Isa. xxxviii:10: "I said in the cutting off of my days, I shall go to the gates of Sheol--Hadees."
12 Korah, Dathan and Abiram (Numbers xvi:30-33) not only went there, "but their houses, and goods, and all that they owned," "and the earth opened her mouth and swallowed them up, and their houses, and all the men that appertained unto Korah, and all their goods. They, and all that appertained to them, went down alive into Sheol--Hadees, and the earth closed upon them; and they perished from among the congregation."
13 It is in the dust. Job xvii:19: "They shall go down to the bars of Sheol--Hadees, when our rest together is in the dust."
14 It has a mouth, is in fact the grave. See Ps. cxli:7: "Our bones are scattered at Sheol's--Hadees' mouth, as when one cutteth and cleaveth wood upon the earth."
15 The overthrow of the King of Babylon is called Hell. Isa. xiv:9-15, 22-23: "Hell (Sheol--Hadees) from beneath is moved for thee to meet thee at thy coming; it stirreth up the dead for thee, even all the chief ones of the earth; it hath raised up from the thrones all the kings of the nations. All they shall speak and say unto thee, art thou also become weak as we? art thou become like unto us? Thy pomp is brought down to the grave and the noise of thy viols; the worm is spread under thee, and the worms cover thee. For I will rise up against them saith the Lord of hosts, and cut off from Babylon the name, and remnant, and son, and nephew, saith the Lord. I will also make it a possession for the bittern, and pools of water; and I will sweep it with the besom of destruction, saith the Lord of hosts." All this imagery demonstrates temporal calamity, a national overthrow as the signification of the word Hell.
16 The captivity of the Jews is called Hell. Isa. v:13-14: "Therefore my people are gone into captivity, because they have no knowledge; and their honorable men are famished, and their multitude dried up with thirst. Therefore Sheol--Hadees hath enlarged herself and opened her mouth without measure; and their glory, and their multitude, and their pomp, and he that rejoiceth, shall descend into it."
17 Temporal overthrow is called Hell. Ps. xlix:14: "Like sheep they are laid in the grave; death shall feed on them; and the upright shall have dominion over them in the morning; and their beauty shall consume in Sheol--Hadees, from their dwelling." Ezek.xxxii:26-27: And they shall not lie with the mighty that are fallen of the uncircumcised, which are gone down to Sheol--Hadees, with their weapons of war, and they have laid their swords under their heads." Men are in hell with their swords under their heads. This cannot mean a state of conscious suffering.
18 All men are to go there. No one can escape the Bible Hell, (Sheol--Hadees) Ps. lxxxix:48.
19 There is no kind of work there. Eccl. ix:10.
20 Christ's soul was in Hell (Sheol--Hadees) Acts ii:27-28.
21 No one in the Bible ever speaks of Hell (Sheol--Hadees) as a place of punishment after death.
22 It is a way of escape from punishment. Amos vii:2.
23 The inhabitants of Hell (Sheol--Hadees) are eaten of worms, vanish and are consumed away. Job. vii:9-24. Ps. xlix:14.
24 Hell (Sheol--Hadees) is a place of rest. Job xvii:6.
25 It is a realm of unconsciousness. Ps. vi:5. Is xxxviii:18. Eccl. ix:10.
26 All men will be delivered from this Hell (Sheol Hadees). Hos. xiii:17.
27 This Hell (Sheol--Hadees) is to be destroyed. Hos xiii:14: "Oh grave I will be thy destruction." I Cor.xv:55: "O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?" Rev. xx:13-14: "And death and Hell delivered up the dead which were in them, and death and Hell were cast into the lake of fire."
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#102
"THE OLD TESTAMENT REPUDIATES THE HEATHEN DOCTRINE
At the time these declarations were made, and universally accepted by the Hebrews, the surrounding nations all held entirely different doctrines. Egypt, Greece, Rome, taught that after death there is a fate in store for the wicked that exactly resembles that taught by so-called orthodox Christians. But the entire Old Testament is utterly silent on the subject, teaching nothing of the sort, as the sixty-four passages we have quoted, the only texts containing the word Hell, show, and as the critics of all churches admit. And yet "Moses was learned in all the wisdom of the Egyptians": (Acts vii:22) who believed in a world of torment after death. If Moses knew all about this Egyptian doctrine, and did not teach it to his followers, what is the unavoidable inference?
Dr. Strong says, that not only Moses, but "every Israelite who came out of Egypt, must have been fully acquainted with the universally recognized doctrine of future rewards and punishments." And yet Moses is utterly silent on the subject.
Dr. Thayer remarks: "Is it possible to imagine a more conclusive proof against the divine origin of the doctrine? If he had believed it to be of God, if he had believed in endless torments as the doom of the wicked after death, and had received this as a revelation from heaven, could he have passed it over in silence? He knew whence the monstrous dogma came, and he had seen enough of Egypt already, and would have no more of her cruel superstitions; and so he casts this out, with her abominable idolatries, as false and unclean things."
In addition to the passages already quoted, the word Sheol--Hadees is rendered Hell in the following texts: Job. xi:7-8; Ps. cxxxix:8; xviii:5; lxxxvi:13; cxvi:3; Prov. xv:11; xxiii:14; xxvii:20; Isa. xxviii:15-18; lvii:9; Ezek. xxxi:16-17; Jon ii:2; Amos ix:2; Hab. ii:5.
We believe we have recorded every passage in which the word occurs. Suppose the original word stood, and we read Sheol or Hadees in all the passages, instead of Hell, wouldany unbiased reader regard it as conveying the idea of a place or state of endless torment after death, such as the English word Hell is also generally supposed to denote? Such a doctrine was never held by the ancient Jews, until after the Babylonish captivity, during which they acquired it of the heathen. All scholars agree that Moses never taught it, and that it is not contained in the Old Testament.
Thus not one of the sixty-four passages containing the only word rendered Hell in the entire Old Testament, teaches any such thought as is commonly supposed to be contained in that"
Babylonia... That explains a lot... Eternal torment is of the harlot of Babylonia...
Please, Jesus, wake the Fundies up... My poor beloved brother, Thomas... :HeartThrob: :sigh:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#103
"ORTHODOX" AND HEATHEN VIEWS IDENTICAL
"Now do popular Christian descriptions resemble anything in the Old Testament? Do they not exactly copy the heathen description? Whence came these ideas? They are not found in the Old Testament. And yet the world was full of them when Christ came.
Jeremy Taylor, of the English Church, says: "The bodies of the damned shall be crowded together in hell, like grapes in a wine-press, which press one another till they burst; every distinct sense and organ shall be assailed with its own appropriate and most exquisite sufferings."
Calvin describes it: "Forever harrassed with a dreadful tempest, they shall feel themselves torn asunder by an angry God, and transfixed and penetrated by mortal stings, terrified by the thunderbolts of God, and broken by the weight of his hand, so that to sink into any gulf would be more tolerable than to stand for a moment in these terrors."
Johnathan Edwards said: "The world will probably be converted into a great lake or liquid globe of fire, in which the wicked shall be overwhelmed, which will always be in tempest, in which they shall be tossed to and fro, having no rest day or night, vast waves and billows of fire continually rolling over their heads, of which they shall forever be full of a quick sense within and without; their heads, their eyes, their tongues, their hands, their feet, their loins, and their vitals, shall forever be full of a glowing, melting fire, fierce enough to melt the very rocks and elements; and, also, they shall eternally be full of the most quick and lively sense to feel the torments; not for one minute, not for one day, not for one age, not for two ages, not for a hundred ages, nor for ten thousand millions of ages, one after another, but forever and ever, without any end at all, and never to be delivered.'
And Spurgeon uses this language even in our own days: "When thou diest, thy soul will be tormented alone: that will be a hell for it; but at the day of judgment thy body will join thy soul, and then thou will have twin hells, thy soul sweating drops of blood, and thy body suffused with agony. In fire exactly like that which we have on earth thy body will lie, asbestos-like, forever unconsumed, all thy veins roads for the feet of pain to travel on, every nerve a string on which the devil shall forever play his diabolical tune of Hell's unutterable Lament."
These horrible ideas were not obtained from the Old Testament, and yet they were fully believed by Jew and Pagan when Christ came. Whence came these views? If the New Testament teaches them, then Christ must have borrowed them from uninspired heathen. What does the New Testament teach concerning Hell?
The Jews of the time of Christ had abandoned the Old Testament teachings concerning retribution. They had made void the word of God by their traditions. How did they come to change their views?¸"
Praise the Lord that I'm free from all that crap, that abomination of a false doctrine. This is just so sick and unhealthy that I am at a loss of words to describe how much this is sick and unhealthy. Pressed like grapes until you burst, burned, roasted, stinged, terrorized, tortured. *Snort* What do you know. They forgot skinned alive. Maybe they'll come up with that next. From what I've heard, hell was first a cold place with blue demons. Then it was a hot place with red demons. What's next, huh? Hell will turn green with rainbow-colored demons? LOL. They don't even know what hell really looks like. None of us do. They need to wake up and realize that it is redemptive and that there is no such thing as "endless" punishment. A punishment by definition must serve a purpose and cannot be endless. If it's endless and doesn't serve a purpose, it's not punishment but sick and sadistic torture...
Quote from: Michelle on March 10, 2011, 09:03:23 AM
This is extremely interesting:
http://www.danielrevelationbiblestudies.com/mistaken_id.htm
Along with that:
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html
So many Bible prophecies have already been fulfilled. The Fundies should definitely catch on on this one. They always have a "we're in the end times" mentality. Even if it was true, it's unhealthy to dwell on these things. I really don't need to add that to all the issues I'm working on...
And thank you very much for the infos and the advices, Shawn...
You are very welcome Michelle. If you ever need a hand with something just PM me. I am always glad to help.
Never doubt it. The Vatican is indeed the whore of Babylonia...
Michelle
But they have not denied Jesus as the Son of God. I think the vatician and/r catholic church is one of the churches in the book of revelation, the one that speaks of offerings to Jezebel. According to saint Saint Malachy there is one more pope after Benedict, who will be the last pope. This got me thinking that either the last pope is the false prophet with 2 horns, or the church gets destroyed or broken up, perhaps due to political or spiritual movement. Perhaps the people will demand the end of the vatician and no longer thinks it's biblical and are willing to let go of it's traddition. Anyone interested should read the prophecies themselves, as I have only glimpsed upon it, and may have incorect information.
Quote from: Michelle on March 04, 2011, 09:29:51 AM
Quote from: thinktank on March 03, 2011, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
This is what Adam and Eve thought. Hey we are perfect beings, we don't need God anymore, we will rule by ourselves. This world is a demonstration of what life is like without God.
That's not what I meant at all. Don't twist my words. I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule. I'm a follower, not a leader. That's why I hope I won't be chosen to rule with Him in the millenial kingdom (if that doctrine is true). I would give my crown to someone else. The thought of so many responsibilities and thousands of people to take care of makes me shudder. I prefer to serve and follow rather than lead and what's the point of ruling yourself if it seperates you from God? Adam and Eve weren't very bright if you ask me. What I was saying is, I wish I was perfect so I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again, because everytime I do, I hate myself and I hurt too. Also, I wish I was perfect because if I was, I would be everything He wants me to be, so He would always be pleased with me and we would both be happy. And people living in heaven are perfect and they still need Him. Everyone needs God. Those who pretend that they don't are either lying or spiritually dead aka unsaved...
But Michelle, God doesn't see us like "we" see us. Because of Jesus, God sees us through his perfection, not through our limitation . ..that's what makes all of this so crazy awesome. You "become" a leader through the power of his spirit. He created this world, you don't think he could transform you from a follower into a leader? That's what makes the cross so great. It fills in the gap between my inability and his completness.
Quote from: thinktank on March 11, 2011, 01:26:03 AM
Never doubt it. The Vatican is indeed the whore of Babylonia...
One problem with making the Roman Church Mother of Wh---- is it isn't "mystical" or "secret" in substance. A secret is psychological, in the mind. This topic is better understood by examining the parallel of Israel's history when they were condemned into captivity to Babylon. (The same process is traced in the time of the early church, already apostate when it had been identified as "The Church of the Bishops".)
Another problem is this explanation is at least part of how Protestant and Independent "Churches" brush off onto others what should convict themselves of the same sin. You can hardly blame the Roman Catholic bureauchracy and ignore ancient Israel, first in line before it, and the subsequent sects, including todays staged religious shows in steeple houses that usurp the ministry of the body of Christ. It is
Institutional Christianity (and Judaism) which most clearly fits the description. Men have intercourse with institutions for reward and positions of Gentile authority. Like the bricks of Babel, they are made the same as one another by conforming to something that doesn't exist but in their imaginations. God builds with living stones. Instead of the hierarchies of religious systems, authority in the kingdom of God is by direct relationship to God. Without other mediators, only direct communion with God, is how the realm where God reigns progresses.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 11, 2011, 06:44:19 AM
Quote from: thinktank on March 11, 2011, 01:26:03 AM
Never doubt it. The Vatican is indeed the whore of Babylonia...
One problem with making the Roman Church Mother of Wh---- is it isn't "mystical" or "secret" in substance. A secret is psychological, in the mind. This topic is better understood by examining the parallel of Israel's history when they were condemned into captivity to Babylon. (The same process is traced in the time of the early church, already apostate when it had been identified as "The Church of the Bishops".)
Another problem is this explanation is at least part of how Protestant and Independent "Churches" brush off onto others what should convict themselves of the same sin. You can hardly blame the Roman Catholic bureauchracy and ignore ancient Israel, first in line before it, and the subsequent sects, including todays staged religious shows in steeple houses that usurp the ministry of the body of Christ. It is Institutional Christianity (and Judaism) which most clearly fits the description. Men have intercourse with institutions for reward and positions of Gentile authority within the institution. Like the bricks of Babel, they are made the same as one another by conforming to something that doesn't exist but in their imaginations. God builds with living stones. Instead of the hierarchies of religious systems, authority in the kingdom of God is by direct relationship to God. Without other mediators, only direct communion with God, is how the realm where God reigns progresses.
I wished I would have been able to put that into words, I agree.
Reformer remember to quote the correct source of any quote you post.
I was convinced in the past that the catholic church, mainly due to others showing me perceived correlations, but after much study I have the identity of the real whore and it is much easier than I thought, although I have run into one or two puzzles of scripture that need to be solved for it to be complete, I'll try to post some info on here sometime, for people to see that I have a very strong case for my argument.
I don't know if this is any comfort to you, Michelle, but I am wrestling with some of the same issues as you. Right now I just don't see God's presence in the world. Deep down I feel that He has abandoned us, given up on us. "Well, I gave humanity x_____ (number) or chances, and they just never got it together, so to hell with them (not literally)!" Like, there never was a truly humble, sincere coming to Him, so why should He care anymore? Human's will just repeat the same mistakes over and over and never truly learn. I've been wasting my life as a wannabe musician, thinking I could make a difference, even in just a small way, but it hasn't happened. Nobody's life has been changed by listening to my attempts at music making. Nobody cares if I ever play another note or not. Tonight I took my guitar into the street and smashed it. Time to give up the illusion. Nobody cares if I live or die. My family certainly doesn't care. They don't try to understand my depression. They just wanna pretend everything's fine. Just get up in the morning, go to your job, come home, watch tv, go to bed, that's what life's all about. You don't need anything else. I hate this lie! Why doesn't the Almighty just reveal Himself to us all and end the questioning? I've got friends who were raised in the church, but they walked away as adults, because they just don't see any proof that there is a God or Higher Power or whatever name you want to use, they just don't see anything. Life is meaningless, pointless. I don't know how they carry on, believing there is nothing except science and money. Some people have these dramatic "road to Damascus" conversion stories, it's like one day the truth just hits them, God visits them, and there are no questions anymore. I don't have anything EXCEPT questions.
One of the greatest gifts God has given me it HUNGER...hunger to know Him and hunger to understand the Scripture (and His revelation any where else.) When people get answers for things they don't need at the moment, usually they lose it in the pile of good ideas they have. Once they get the need, let's say they need the cure for cancer, they dig out their pile of junk to find the phone number they'd lost a while back. You know what the one prerequisite for healing is? It is being sick.
God gives His gifts to those who appreciate them. Hunger and need is often the context necessary for Divine revelation. "I will pour floods upon the dry ground..."
Think how often in Scripture it is the virgin who conceives.
Quote from: thinktank on March 11, 2011, 01:26:03 AM
Never doubt it. The Vatican is indeed the whore of Babylonia...
Michelle
But they have not denied Jesus as the Son of God. I think the vatician and/r catholic church is one of the churches in the book of revelation, the one that speaks of offerings to Jezebel. According to saint Saint Malachy there is one more pope after Benedict, who will be the last pope. This got me thinking that either the last pope is the false prophet with 2 horns, or the church gets destroyed or broken up, perhaps due to political or spiritual movement. Perhaps the people will demand the end of the vatician and no longer thinks it's biblical and are willing to let go of it's traddition. Anyone interested should read the prophecies themselves, as I have only glimpsed upon it, and may have incorect information.
Thinktank, they practice pagan rituals, they have pagan doctrines, they are worshipping idols; Mary, dead saints, angels, they wear purple and scarlet, not to mention that most people in the Vatican are into bllack masses, the occult and invoking demons. You don't believe me? There are tons of articles and videos, testimonies. Just dig it up and you will find the truth. Even though they have no denied Jesus in words, they are denying Him in the way they live and what they do. I have studied the stuff for months. The devil is in the Vatican. And Benedict is totally evil. I can recognize evil when I see it. That guy has "I'm evil" written all over his face. As for the church being destroyed or broken up due to political or spiritual movement, it will be the world leaders and new-agers. Well, I sure hope the people will demand the end of the Vatican and let go of the tradition of men and doctrines of demons. If you knew what's going on in the Vatican, you would shudder. It's really creepy, believe me. Emblems of Roman and Babylonian corruption are rampant in the Catholic Church. And they have many false doctrines and they go against the teachings of the Bible. The Catechism of the Council of Trent states these words: "It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them." That's idolatry. They worship Mary and they say that she is co-Savior with Jesus, which is a gross lie. Mary was only a human saint. The only intercessor between man and God is the Man-God Jesus Christ. The Catholic church is full of abominations and heresies. They practice sun worship which is a Babylonian abomination. Their fake Mary and Baby Jesus actually are Semiramis and Tammuz (so-called sun god, but was only a possessed kid). Research this and read Ezekiel 8. Read also my last posts in my other thread. You will find more infos there. The Vatican is behind the NWO along with various world leaders. You might want to watch these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stMgtPH8S-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA1HCf4do_0 (forget the crap about hell and pay attention to the rest of it).
In six parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knmL2ODvJPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDGq-CVUKf4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=745ACGtHf6U&feature=related (satanic handsigns) About the Bohemian Grove, that's where the secret society, Skull & Bones, burn children to Moloch and worship him. Yes, you heard right. Just like the Jews did in the O.T. The same Moloch, the same satanic practices. I'm not sure because I haven't got into the O.T yet, but if that happened AFTER their captivity in Babylonia, that explains a lot. And the Jews burned their children to the idol, in the Valley of the sons of Hinnom (Gehenna)...
This is very creepy... See for yourself:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/bohemian_grove_exposed.htm (They believe in the eternal torment crap but what they say about the secret societies is true).
http://molech.weebly.com/is-it-mock-or-real-child-sacrifice.html
I'm warning you though. Don't watch any of the Alex Jones videos or read anything of what he has to say. He is a disinfo agent... This is very real and serious and your leaders really are doing this...
"This is NOT a "Game"! This is NOT a "Joke" people! They are DEADLY SERIOUS about this stuff I can ASSURE you!"
"Bohemian Grove is a 2,700 acre estate secluded and guarded among redwood tree's located 75 miles north of San Francisco in California. Once every year in July a private event is held away from the public eye for American and foreign politicians, bankers, businessmen, top entertainers, etc, all of which are initiate's of the Babylonian Brotherhood meet up for a weekend at a place called Bohemian Grove. Here they dress up in red robe's carry out occult rituals and worship a 40 foot stone statue of an owl that is named Moloch which is an ancient deity. In biblical time's people sacrificially burned children to their God Moloch who is an aspect of Nimrod/Baal, this is also mentioned in the bible."
Notice the cleverly hidden owl seen on the U.S. dollar bill. It is tucked away in the corner. When magnified, the owl is clearly visible. As if the pyramid and eye Illuminati symbol dollar bill wasn't enough... And you can bet that it's not "mock child sacrifice". They really are sacrificing and burning children to the idol. How many children disappear every years? How many more kidnapping will it take for people to wake up?
http://911truth.tribe.net/thread/d109f952-6964-4e8d-8909-a23eae9147c3
http://freedompressnews.com/TheBohemianGrove.aspx
http://www.trosch.org/msn/mason-graphics.html
In 25 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICc4pxx_mDg&feature=related
By the way, the royal family of England is among the thirteen bloodlines of the Illuminati and Queen Elizabeth II of England is very influent among them.
It's like I said. I've been studying the whole NWO thing for six months. You wanna know something guys? Just ask. The more you keep yourselves informed, the more you will be prepared and the more you will avoid deception...
Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2011, 01:34:38 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 04, 2011, 09:29:51 AM
Quote from: thinktank on March 03, 2011, 01:29:35 AM
Quote from: Michelle on March 02, 2011, 12:07:29 PM
Quote from: CHB on February 28, 2011, 08:34:11 PM
Quote from: Michelle
I want so bad to be perfect to Him and for Him.
Hi,
I'm afraid that isn't going to happen as long as you are in the flesh. No one is perfect in this life, if we were we wouldn't need Jesus Christ.
CHB
But if I was, I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again. I would never have any sin and I would be everything He wants me to be. And if perfect people don't need Jesus, then why do people who live in heaven need Him once they are perfect?
This is what Adam and Eve thought. Hey we are perfect beings, we don't need God anymore, we will rule by ourselves. This world is a demonstration of what life is like without God.
That's not what I meant at all. Don't twist my words. I don't think I don't need God and I certainly don't want to rule. I'm a follower, not a leader. That's why I hope I won't be chosen to rule with Him in the millenial kingdom (if that doctrine is true). I would give my crown to someone else. The thought of so many responsibilities and thousands of people to take care of makes me shudder. I prefer to serve and follow rather than lead and what's the point of ruling yourself if it seperates you from God? Adam and Eve weren't very bright if you ask me. What I was saying is, I wish I was perfect so I would never disappoint Him or hurt Him ever again, because everytime I do, I hate myself and I hurt too. Also, I wish I was perfect because if I was, I would be everything He wants me to be, so He would always be pleased with me and we would both be happy. And people living in heaven are perfect and they still need Him. Everyone needs God. Those who pretend that they don't are either lying or spiritually dead aka unsaved...
But Michelle, God doesn't see us like "we" see us. Because of Jesus, God sees us through his perfection, not through our limitation . ..that's what makes all of this so crazy awesome. You "become" a leader through the power of his spirit. He created this world, you don't think he could transform you from a follower into a leader? That's what makes the cross so great. It fills in the gap between my inability and his completness.
Drop the subject entirely. We are NOT talking about this...
"Because of Jesus, God sees us through his perfection, not through our limitation."
Then God's vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Humans in this life will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. If God see us through His perfection and not through our limitations, His vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Worse then that, He lies to us and gives us the false hope that we can be perfect in this life. But you can only be wrong because God cannot live in a lie and lie. God can't lie and see us the way we aren't. Whatever Jesus did on the cross has its limits. Jesus can forgive us our sins, cleanse us and wash us, but in this life we will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. Jesus couldn't fix that for us in this life because it wasn't on His Father's plan. His Pure Spirit form has the last word, not His human form. Even though God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Father is first, the Son is second and the Holy Spirit is third. That's how this whole authority works in the Trinity. It's a hierarchy. Even if that was true, what does it change? I will never be perfect in this life and if God really loves me, He won't see me through a lie...
"Nobody cares if I live or die. My family certainly doesn't care. They don't try to understand my depression. They just wanna pretend everything's fine. Just get up in the morning, go to your job, come home, watch tv, go to bed, that's what life's all about. You don't need anything else. I hate this lie! Why doesn't the Almighty just reveal Himself to us all and end the questioning? Some people have these dramatic "road to Damascus" conversion stories, it's like one day the truth just hits them, God visits them, and there are no questions anymore. I don't have anything EXCEPT questions."
*Bitter laugh* Join the club. Sometimes, I'm just so angry at God, I feel like I'm going to explode. If He wasn't God Almighty, I would insult Him because I'm just so freaking mad. Sometimes, vent out in my mind. And people say: "Bad thoughts is not sin. You can't control your mind and the bad thoughts that evil spirits put in it. Outer influence is something that will never stop in this life. Bad thoughts is not sin. Sin is yielding to the thought and acting it out." Of course in the case of vulnerability or OCD, God understands. In these cases, we have no defense. Pleading the blood of Jesus over your body, soul and spirit and putting on the armor of God helps. But I'm not saying that evil spirits put bad thought in my mind. Not that it's never the case, but in the present case, I know that the problem lie deep inside me. But, yeah, I'm freaking mad at Him sometimes. It's like God's main goal is to leave us to rot on this cursed, fallen, evil planet to be "eternally tortured" with questions. This is hell, isn't? God put a curse on us. answers are a curse just like questions. Because answers always bring more questions. So it's a neverending nightmare of endless questions. Maybe mom was right. Maybe hell is on earth. Or at least, you can bet there is some sort of "hell in this life" which is the hell of anxiety, fear, depression, anger, etc. And then you have the endless questions hell., I don't know which one is the worse. They are both driving me insane. It sucks, it really does. Believe me, I know all about "That's what life's all about". My mother doesn't believe me about what's going on in the Vatican and she won't give up her Catholic idolatrous ways. She prays to Mary and dead saints when she should pray to Jesus alone. I told her that Mary and the saints, dead people, can't even hear her, that everything she heard was a lie, that once you cross over, you can't come back, hear the living or communicate with them. Even if they could actually hear the living, they are not divine and cannot answer prayer. God would never allow mankind to have any other mediator than Jesus. As for the miraculous healings, I have no answers. I hesitate to call them satanic, because I certainly don't want to blaspheme the Holy Spirit. But I doubt God answer the prayer of people who spend their time whoring in idolatry, paganism and even satanism without remorse. He will eventually save them, but they're gonna have to learn some lessons. It truly breaks His heart to see people giving their love to idols, statues and images. You and I have some serious issues to deal with. Sure we are mad at God, but we can't stay mad at Him forever. One of these days, we're gonna have to move on, you know. I mean, dealing with our issues.
http://www.youtube.com/user/tentmaker777
That man is mightily used by the Lord and like King David, is a man after the Lord's heart. Watch some of his videos, it'll make you feel better. It's no wonder that the Lord led me straight to this place. In fact, I'm closer to the Lord when I listen to him ministering than I usually am, so I think I'm gonna watch some of his videos on a daily basis. And the advantage here man is that you don't have to put up with traditions of men and doctrines of demons.
http://www.realarmorofgod.com/armor-of-god.html
Scroll down and read the part about: "how to pray on the armor of God". Do this on a daily basis. I've neglected that part of my spiritual growth way too much. Maybe that's why I can hardly resist all the additional negative emotions thrown my way...
LS, go outside and take a look around you or take a look at the person closest to you now, God is every where you look. It says he "is never far from us". Can you honestly say you think all of these things just appeared out of no where on their own? Trust me, some day all of this evil will be forgotten.
CHB
Quote from: Lonely Summer on March 12, 2011, 05:22:43 AM
I don't know if this is any comfort to you, Michelle, but I am wrestling with some of the same issues as you. Right now I just don't see God's presence in the world. Deep down I feel that He has abandoned us, given up on us. "Well, I gave humanity x_____ (number) or chances, and they just never got it together, so to hell with them (not literally)!" Like, there never was a truly humble, sincere coming to Him, so why should He care anymore? Human's will just repeat the same mistakes over and over and never truly learn. I've been wasting my life as a wannabe musician, thinking I could make a difference, even in just a small way, but it hasn't happened. Nobody's life has been changed by listening to my attempts at music making. Nobody cares if I ever play another note or not. Tonight I took my guitar into the street and smashed it. Time to give up the illusion. Nobody cares if I live or die. My family certainly doesn't care. They don't try to understand my depression. They just wanna pretend everything's fine. Just get up in the morning, go to your job, come home, watch tv, go to bed, that's what life's all about. You don't need anything else. I hate this lie! Why doesn't the Almighty just reveal Himself to us all and end the questioning? I've got friends who were raised in the church, but they walked away as adults, because they just don't see any proof that there is a God or Higher Power or whatever name you want to use, they just don't see anything. Life is meaningless, pointless. I don't know how they carry on, believing there is nothing except science and money. Some people have these dramatic "road to Damascus" conversion stories, it's like one day the truth just hits them, God visits them, and there are no questions anymore. I don't have anything EXCEPT questions.
When I read your post in another thread, I thought of Michelle. You two have a similar tone within your posts. I have had every thought you just mentioned.
You said,
They don't try to understand my depression. They just wanna pretend everything's fine. Just get up in the morning, go to your job, come home, watch tv, go to bed, that's what life's all about. You don't need anything else. I hate this lie!You are absolutely right. And it is a lie. I remember thinking these thoughts and being consumed by them. I remember the utter suicidal depression that came from this thinking. The thing is this...we are not responsible nor do we have to abide by what the world thinks, or what our family thinks. If life is just about work, tv, eat, bed over and over til we die then we have missed the point of living. When I had these thoughts no one around me understood them. They seemed to be ok with living that life. I'm sure my substance abuse issues didn't help any of that as well.
So, why don't I feel like that today? The grace and mercy of God allowed me to experience that pain so I could help people in similar prisons of thought. I believe he delivered me so that I could be a useful, functional member of the body of Christ. So, where did it start. For me, it started with deliverance from substance abuse. It started with reaching out to others and saying I have a problem I can't fix. I started with saying something is deeply wrong with me, and I have no ability on my own to deliver myself. I couldn't out think my depression or drinking. I couldn't think up peace and faith. It started by being humbled by life. I asked for help.
In that process, I was given several things. Considering I liked to isolate, didn't really like people and certainly didn't want to interact with them...I was forced to not only talk with people, but to trust them (something very tough for me). I seen the love of God through the "least of these" through those the world judges and thinks very little of. It was through these people I realized that anyone can make a difference. You don't have to have unique talents, have a record contract, be exceptionally bright, beautiful or anything of the like. All you need is a willingness, a humility and the desire to be used by God. I seen more of God in those rooms than I had seen anywhere in my life. These were not people who were content just working, watching TV and bed. They wanted to be vessels, instruments of God. And they surely were used that way in my life.
It gave me hope, and a new direction. I realized that life was more...and I could abide in it. We have choices to make...feed depressive thoughts and live in them. Or, we can learn a new way of living...the one Christ instructed us to live. Every interaction we have is a spiritual interaction...start there.
Quote from: reFORMer on March 12, 2011, 09:36:21 AM
One of the greatest gifts God has given me it HUNGER...hunger to know Him and hunger to understand the Scripture (and His revelation any where else.) When people get answers for things they don't need at the moment, usually they lose it in the pile of good ideas they have. Once they get the need, let's say they need the cure for cancer, they dig out their pile of junk to find the phone number they'd lost a while back. You know what the one prerequisite for healing is? It is being sick.
God gives His gifts to those who appreciate them. Hunger and need is often the context necessary for Divine revelation. "I will pour floods upon the dry ground..."
Think how often in Scripture it is the virgin who conceives.
Terrific post and I completely agree.
Quote from: Michelle on March 12, 2011, 04:03:58 PM
"Because of Jesus, God sees us through his perfection, not through our limitation."
Then God's vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Humans in this life will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. If God see us through His perfection and not through our limitations, His vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Worse then that, He lies to us and gives us the false hope that we can be perfect in this life. But you can only be wrong because God cannot live in a lie and lie. God can't lie and see us the way we aren't. Whatever Jesus did on the cross has its limits. Jesus can forgive us our sins, cleanse us and wash us, but in this life we will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. Jesus couldn't fix that for us in this life because it wasn't on His Father's plan. His Pure Spirit form has the last word, not His human form. Even though God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Father is first, the Son is second and the Holy Spirit is third. That's how this whole authority works in the Trinity. It's a hierarchy. Even if that was true, what does it change? I will never be perfect in this life and if God really loves me, He won't see me through a lie...
So is the Bible lying to us? Do you really believe the creator of this universe sees things less clearly than you do? Is it even possible you could be wrong?
The fact is this...our vision is limited and tainted. I don't believe God sees believers limitations and sin. I believe he sees who we are in Christ...remember he knows the end of your story. You don't. The fact is today, I trust the process. I know it's a process. Progress not perfection. I don't hold myself to perfectionist standards, nor do I believe God to do so. We are given what we should strive for, and grow along those lines.
Michelle,
I haven't posted on here in awhile, but I decided to check up on here for the heck of it. The first thing I read was your dream about a gray earth. This isn't some future warning from God, but a present reality in your life. You are giving guilt the power to turn your world into ashes.
Quote from: shawn on March 12, 2011, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: Michelle on March 12, 2011, 04:03:58 PM
"Because of Jesus, God sees us through his perfection, not through our limitation."
Then God's vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Humans in this life will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. If God see us through His perfection and not through our limitations, His vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Worse then that, He lies to us and gives us the false hope that we can be perfect in this life. But you can only be wrong because God cannot live in a lie and lie. God can't lie and see us the way we aren't. Whatever Jesus did on the cross has its limits. Jesus can forgive us our sins, cleanse us and wash us, but in this life we will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. Jesus couldn't fix that for us in this life because it wasn't on His Father's plan. His Pure Spirit form has the last word, not His human form. Even though God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Father is first, the Son is second and the Holy Spirit is third. That's how this whole authority works in the Trinity. It's a hierarchy. Even if that was true, what does it change? I will never be perfect in this life and if God really loves me, He won't see me through a lie...
So is the Bible lying to us? Do you really believe the creator of this universe sees things less clearly than you do? Is it even possible you could be wrong?
The fact is this...our vision is limited and tainted. I don't believe God sees believers limitations and sin. I believe he sees who we are in Christ...remember he knows the end of your story. You don't. The fact is today, I trust the process. I know it's a process. Progress not perfection. I don't hold myself to perfectionist standards, nor do I believe God to do so. We are given what we should strive for, and grow along those lines.
Shawn :thumbsup:
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit. Romans 8 Rocks!
The Avowel by Denise Levertov
As swimmers dare
to lie face to the sky
and water bears them,
as hawks rest upon air
and air sustains them;
so would I learn to attain
freefall, and float
into Creator Spirit's deep
embrace,
knowing no effort earns
that all-surrounding
grace.
Quote from: Molly on March 13, 2011, 02:08:40 AM
Quote from: shawn on March 12, 2011, 06:09:38 PM
Quote from: Michelle on March 12, 2011, 04:03:58 PM
"Because of Jesus, God sees us through his perfection, not through our limitation."
Then God's vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Humans in this life will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. If God see us through His perfection and not through our limitations, His vision is distorted and He lives in a lie. Worse then that, He lies to us and gives us the false hope that we can be perfect in this life. But you can only be wrong because God cannot live in a lie and lie. God can't lie and see us the way we aren't. Whatever Jesus did on the cross has its limits. Jesus can forgive us our sins, cleanse us and wash us, but in this life we will always have mistakes, imperfections and limitations. Jesus couldn't fix that for us in this life because it wasn't on His Father's plan. His Pure Spirit form has the last word, not His human form. Even though God, Jesus and the Holy Spirit are one and the same, the Father is first, the Son is second and the Holy Spirit is third. That's how this whole authority works in the Trinity. It's a hierarchy. Even if that was true, what does it change? I will never be perfect in this life and if God really loves me, He won't see me through a lie...
So is the Bible lying to us? Do you really believe the creator of this universe sees things less clearly than you do? Is it even possible you could be wrong?
The fact is this...our vision is limited and tainted. I don't believe God sees believers limitations and sin. I believe he sees who we are in Christ...remember he knows the end of your story. You don't. The fact is today, I trust the process. I know it's a process. Progress not perfection. I don't hold myself to perfectionist standards, nor do I believe God to do so. We are given what we should strive for, and grow along those lines.
Shawn :thumbsup:
1There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit.
Romans 8 Rocks!
Romans 7 and 8 are my two favorite chapters in the Bible. They have always spoken to me in profound ways.
Quote from: Sarah on March 13, 2011, 03:35:35 AM
The Avowel by Denise Levertov
As swimmers dare
to lie face to the sky
and water bears them,
as hawks rest upon air
and air sustains them;
so would I learn to attain
freefall, and float
into Creator Spirit's deep
embrace,
knowing no effort earns
that all-surrounding
grace.
Wonderful poem Sarah.
Very good poem...I liked it :bigGrin:
Quote from: Michelle on March 12, 2011, 03:09:18 PM
Quote from: thinktank on March 11, 2011, 01:26:03 AM
Never doubt it. The Vatican is indeed the whore of Babylonia...
Michelle
But they have not denied Jesus as the Son of God. I think the vatician and/r catholic church is one of the churches in the book of revelation, the one that speaks of offerings to Jezebel. According to saint Saint Malachy there is one more pope after Benedict, who will be the last pope. This got me thinking that either the last pope is the false prophet with 2 horns, or the church gets destroyed or broken up, perhaps due to political or spiritual movement. Perhaps the people will demand the end of the vatician and no longer thinks it's biblical and are willing to let go of it's traddition. Anyone interested should read the prophecies themselves, as I have only glimpsed upon it, and may have incorect information.
Thinktank, they practice pagan rituals, they have pagan doctrines, they are worshipping idols; Mary, dead saints, angels, they wear purple and scarlet,
Purple and scarlet were colours designed and created by God. I know that purple is associated with spirituality, does red = the devil? or is red a nice colour God created?. What colour is that life force that runs inside your body, working hard, 24 hours a day, without you even doing a thing, keeping you alive and healthy?
not to mention that most people in the Vatican are into bllack masses, the occult and invoking demons. You don't believe me?
There are rotten apples to be found in all places. In the ministry of Jesus, there was a person so bad that Jesus called him a demon.
There are tons of articles and videos, testimonies. Just dig it up and you will find the truth. Even though they have no denied Jesus in words, they are denying Him in the way they live and what they do.
I find catholics to be gracefull people who emphasize repentance, conffesion of sins, and they also have purgatory, which gives souls an opportunity to be saved. This gives the catholics one more option to be saved than the protestants.
I have studied the stuff for months. The devil is in the Vatican. And Benedict is totally evil. I can recognize evil when I see it. That guy has "I'm evil" written all over his face.
Not sure about Benedict, but he stands strong for tradditional marriage.
The previous pope John Paul was a loved pope by many people. Do a bible code on the pope and you won't find devil or antichrist but you will find Apostle of Christ.
TT
As for the church being destroyed or broken up due to political or spiritual movement, it will be the world leaders and new-agers. Well, I sure hope the people will demand the end of the Vatican and let go of the tradition of men and doctrines of demons. If you knew what's going on in the Vatican, you would shudder. It's really creepy, believe me. Emblems of Roman and Babylonian corruption are rampant in the Catholic Church. And they have many false doctrines and they go against the teachings of the Bible. The Catechism of the Council of Trent states these words: "It is lawful to have images in the Church, and to give honor and worship unto them." That's idolatry. They worship Mary and they say that she is co-Savior with Jesus, which is a gross lie. Mary was only a human saint. The only intercessor between man and God is the Man-God Jesus Christ.
I think the catholics do have something, Some argue that since Mary was the human mother of Jesus, she who is now in heaven with Jesus can pray for us, just as say, you pray for your funde , friend. The danger I think is when we put Mary in a higher place than Jesus, which there is a danger that the catholic church could do that, and that's why I think in the letters to the churches in the book of revelation, Jesus said to warn the church against eating/sacrifing idols to that prophetess Jezebel.
TT
The Catholic church is full of abominations and heresies. They practice sun worship which is a Babylonian abomination. Their fake Mary and Baby Jesus actually are Semiramis and Tammuz (so-called sun god, but was only a possessed kid). Research this and read Ezekiel 8. Read also my last posts in my other thread. You will find more infos there. The Vatican is behind the NWO along with various world leaders. You might want to watch these:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=stMgtPH8S-A
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MA1HCf4do_0 (forget the crap about hell and pay attention to the rest of it).
In six parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=knmL2ODvJPw
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDGq-CVUKf4&feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=745ACGtHf6U&feature=related (satanic handsigns) About the Bohemian Grove, that's where the secret society, Skull & Bones, burn children to Moloch and worship him. Yes, you heard right. Just like the Jews did in the O.T. The same Moloch, the same satanic practices. I'm not sure because I haven't got into the O.T yet, but if that happened AFTER their captivity in Babylonia, that explains a lot. And the Jews burned their children to the idol, in the Valley of the sons of Hinnom (Gehenna)...
This is very creepy... See for yourself:
http://www.jesus-is-savior.com/False%20Religions/Wicca%20&%20Witchcraft/bohemian_grove_exposed.htm (They believe in the eternal torment crap but what they say about the secret societies is true).
http://molech.weebly.com/is-it-mock-or-real-child-sacrifice.html
I'm warning you though. Don't watch any of the Alex Jones videos or read anything of what he has to say. He is a disinfo agent... This is very real and serious and your leaders really are doing this...
"This is NOT a "Game"! This is NOT a "Joke" people! They are DEADLY SERIOUS about this stuff I can ASSURE you!"
"Bohemian Grove is a 2,700 acre estate secluded and guarded among redwood tree's located 75 miles north of San Francisco in California. Once every year in July a private event is held away from the public eye for American and foreign politicians, bankers, businessmen, top entertainers, etc, all of which are initiate's of the Babylonian Brotherhood meet up for a weekend at a place called Bohemian Grove. Here they dress up in red robe's carry out occult rituals and worship a 40 foot stone statue of an owl that is named Moloch which is an ancient deity. In biblical time's people sacrificially burned children to their God Moloch who is an aspect of Nimrod/Baal, this is also mentioned in the bible."
Notice the cleverly hidden owl seen on the U.S. dollar bill. It is tucked away in the corner. When magnified, the owl is clearly visible. As if the pyramid and eye Illuminati symbol dollar bill wasn't enough... And you can bet that it's not "mock child sacrifice". They really are sacrificing and burning children to the idol. How many children disappear every years? How many more kidnapping will it take for people to wake up?
http://911truth.tribe.net/thread/d109f952-6964-4e8d-8909-a23eae9147c3
http://freedompressnews.com/TheBohemianGrove.aspx
http://www.trosch.org/msn/mason-graphics.html
In 25 parts: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICc4pxx_mDg&feature=related
By the way, the royal family of England is among the thirteen bloodlines of the Illuminati and Queen Elizabeth II of England is very influent among them.
According to propet kim clement the queen will announce God as Lord and it will shake England with fear. I watch the queen on christmas day for her queens speech and she has been very respectfull towards christianity, so far.
It's like I said. I've been studying the whole NWO thing for six months. You wanna know something guys? Just ask. The more you keep yourselves informed, the more you will be prepared and the more you will avoid deception...
I think some of these cults do exist, but most of them are simply sell outs to the devil. The bible says mystery babylon is the biggest force of witchraft and evil and she will be destroyed by the man of sin and his 10 kings.
Jesus said if Satan cast out Satan how can his kingdom stand?
So since satans kingdom will not stand I think Satan will cast out Satan.
TT
Quote from: Michelle on March 10, 2011, 02:48:29 PM
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html#103
"ORTHODOX" AND HEATHEN VIEWS IDENTICAL
"Now do popular Christian descriptions resemble anything in the Old Testament? Do they not exactly copy the heathen description? Whence came these ideas? They are not found in the Old Testament. And yet the world was full of them when Christ came.
Take someone that on Monday worshipped 10 Roman gods and on Friday decided he was converted to Christianity. Constantine.
The empire was vast and needed a binding factor. That became Christianity. Constantine was really loved by God because he recieved visions on weekly basis. Unfortunately the people in the counsil didn't agree among themselfs and above all they didn't agree with Constantine.
Luckily Constantine was a great leader and was able to convince the council Roman style....
Mmmm, but what books should become the official canon? Simpel take the political solution. The books that are (almost) used by all Christians are combined into a Bible. The readers of the not so accepted books.... became sorta dead. :-)
And if the church leaders had problems understanding a certain verse, passage or Constantine would solve it.
Maybe while sitting behind his altar that's basicly even worse than all the pagan symbolism combined.
http://www.666beast.net/
Quote from: Michelle on March 10, 2011, 10:38:49 AM
Still not convinced that the Vatican is the whore of Babylon? Not only do they wear purple and scarlet, they borrowed sun worshipping from the Azteks and introduced it into the Vatican. You should do research on Nimrod, Semiramis and Tammuz. Semiramis and Tammuz are the fake Mary and fake baby Jesus of the Roman Catholic Church.
The moon and star symbol of islam is pregnant Semiramis (=moon) with Tammuz (=star)
Quote from: Lonely Summer on March 12, 2011, 05:22:43 AMI've been wasting my life as a wannabe musician, thinking I could make a difference, even in just a small way, but it hasn't happened. Nobody's life has been changed by listening to my attempts at music making. Nobody cares if I ever play another note or not. Tonight I took my guitar into the street and smashed it. Time to give up the illusion. Nobody cares if I live or die. My family certainly doesn't care. They don't try to understand my depression. They just wanna pretend everything's fine. Just get up in the morning, go to your job, come home, watch tv, go to bed, that's what life's all about. You don't need anything else. I hate this lie!
Lie or no lie it's the life of most people. 9 to 5 jobs. Travel to and from that job. Sleep. That's it.
8 hours sleep. 9 hours at work. 1 hour traveling. 1 hour shopping. 1 hour cleaning and other jobs around the house. 1 hour of time wasted otherwise. Etc. That's an everyday reality for most people.
YLTGen 317 And to the man He said, `Because thou hast hearkened to the voice of thy wife, and dost eat of the tree concerning which I have charged thee, saying, Thou dost not eat of it, cursed is ?the ground on thine account; in sorrow thou dost eat of it all days of thy life,
18 and thorn and bramble it doth bring forth to thee, and thou hast eaten the herb of the field;
Yep, there are exceptions. But very few....
There isn't much written about the life of Jesus besides the time of His ministry. But I think it's safe to assume that Jesus had a very simple/basic life before His ministry. He didn't steal the stuff He needed. Etc. My guess is that Jesus had a 9 to 5 life too. Or more likely a 6 to 6 life...
Just like the vast majority has 9 to 5 jobs the vast majority of people won't be missed.
YLTEccl 95 For the living know that they die, and the dead know not anything, and there is no more to them a reward,
for their remembrance hath been forgotten.All the above perhaps isn't the sort of negativity you want to hear (BTW be blessed with your hearing. I constantly hear my heartbeat and other irritating noises). You seem to think low of yourself because you didn't make it. Well join the other 99.% of humanity
Never worry just accept. Just do you thing. That's happiness :-)