willieH: Greetings beloved Brothers, :boyheart: ...and Sisters... :girlheart:
Many have shared this thought but I felt God moving me to share my experience, how bout you?
willieH: After battling Spiritually for many years, one day... I went to a spot I often go to, to be alone and to talk with GOD... and tearfully, after confessing my weaknesses, I said to Him, "You are GOD, ...I'm just a stupid and weak man, please forgive me"
Then I said the most important words I believe I have ever spoken... "Please Lord, speak your saving words to EVERYONE... that none should be lost"
Without fully realizing what I had said... I went home and wrote down my thoughts which contained what later became "The Wish"... :Mcry:
For brevity's sake, it says... "If I had ONE WISH, it would be that YOU would have YOUR WISH... that ALL MEN would be SAVED..."
In the coming weeks, as I opened my Bible, ...Scriptures began to appear before me, that I had never before seen, such as 1 Tim 4:9-11 and 1 John 4:14... then others...
I got on the internet... and began searching... and found there were others that had this revelation, such as
J. Preston Eby,
Elwin Roach and
L. Ray Smith... I began reading their views... a few years later, after posting on a few forums, I found
Tentmaker... :boogie:
Here I am today... blessed to be amongst all you wonderful, intelligent, and Spiritual GOD SEEKING men and women... :mpardon:
I praise Him for this journey and for ALL of you! :grouppray:
Please share YOUR journey with us... :LoveH1:
pEAce... :gimmefive:
In
JESUS
...willieH :ilu:
:cloud9: Hi Willie.......mine came as a shock to me. It was when He spoke to me the scripture, "There were 2 trees in the midst of the garden" and dropped into my spirit that they were the candlestick and the table of shewbread. It was then that the revelation came that if the inner court realm was the MIDST of the garden, then the WHOLE garden was His, and that would include the outer court which is where He had taught me all mankind resides (spiritually speaking) if they are not baptized into His Spirit in the inner court experience outlined by Pentecost.
That's it. Simple and sweet, LOL. I have not read one word of UR doctrine, which is why I don't share on the topic, because that's all He's made life in me concerning it at present, and I try hard not to share anything that is not of experiential, done by the Spirit, knowledge. Blessings to all.......
Hey Willie
Thats some Testimony. :icon_flower: :icon_flower: ..even thou it was the brief version.
Gee, Mine goes back aways...Nothing spectacular Im sorry..well not to the human Eye
back in the eighties ..my first religious experience was with the WWCG...I think your ex SDA..similar backgrounds
Anyways...I just hated the hypocrisy..long story ,At the start of the 90s I become disilusioned with religion ...Althou I met and married my wife during that season we just stopped attending....many yrs lapsed,althou God was always in the back of my mind , My hurt, pain, and anger from those days remained Like I said "Long story"
Quite a few yrs passed and I just got back Into the world. :mblush: ..I suppose it was some 4 or 5 yrs ago....,this desire came about to want to Know HIM more , It was JUST a desire from WITHIN..I cant recal anything sparking it... :dontknow:
I contacted many people, Old and new just to find their own personal thoughts , of course along with The Net ,..I cant recal why or exactly when , but L.Ray.Smiths web site came on screen, I really wasnt looking ..well I read some of his Hate mail..I just felt sorry for the Guy...if this chap believed That Christ saved ALL...why cant folk leave the man alone, I emailed Him to mention just this, nothing else
ANY ways, I got back into study , and not unlike yourself, the scriptures took on a different meaning , well some 18 mths may have passed as I personally become aware throu Scripture that Christ DID DIE for all....I still had that old Conditioning and there was a Couple of things which at that time i Needed to reconcile...and that came about.
so, I recall the only person I knew was this fellow ..Ray Smith...so I read his papers many times , then this chap called Mike Vinson, his also , I was more than intrigued as they too were ex wwcg...
At the time I didnt even Know there were Forums. :dontknow: . existed on the Net...anyway, I then realised( Im slow) this guy had his own forum with Folk who also discovered Christ dying for all...
so I joined..as I become more PC aware, then realised there were other forums and people like Ebay , etc...then this chap from Tentmaker turned up...cant remember his name..Gary somebody , Armoursuit is it.... :laughing7:...i dropped him a mail just to chat and he gave a Brief testimony, again at that time I didnt Know of His forum that came about some months later..
I first Joined here must be nearly two yrs back?...and the rest they say Is History...
I found PEACE, My pain has Gone along with my hurt ...i really did discover A GREATER forgiveness...and thats what HE taught me....PURE forgiveness, a LONG rd it was, but WORTH ALL THE PAIN.
Blessings
Taffy
willeH,
Great topic, and thanks Card..Taffy and Willeh...for sharing your stories.
In April 1996 a good friend of mine from back in our WOF days called me at my place of work. I was way to busy to talk with him... but, I was intrigued about what he was hearing from a preacher who was speaking nightly at the church he attended...and it kept me in my office for close to an hour. I had just recently opened a new restaurant...the place was rocking and I really did not have even 5 minutes to talk with him.
We had both known this preacher from his visits to our church in Illinois back in 1978-1981. His TOPIC was GRACE and his name... Mike Williams.
My friend said to me near the end of our conversation that day, "something is wrong...my life, the christian life I'm living... this just can't be what Jesus died for." I told him it was the same for me.
A few days later the tapes from those meetings arrived at my house and I listened to them over and over, for about 6 months...but I had become very cautious about jumping in to the latest church thing and it took those 6 months before I agreed to accept that what I was hearing on Mike's tapes...was the truth. What I got from those tapes changed my life and has proven to me that GRACE is the ROSETTA stone...to understanding Scripture.
My wife kids with me that those GRACE tapes were the 'gateway drug' that would shortly lead me into UR...the even better stuff. My friend did give me... for free...those first few tapes.
Dean
For me it was dropped in my spirit in my living room in the middle of the night. I will never forget that night as long as I live. It was close to Yom Kippur and it was a divine moment when suddenly I KNEW that I knew Gods heart for the first time......then for a few months God built upon that knowing first by showing me the all in Adam then the all In Christ. I also had a vision that sealed it for me, it was right after that night. I saw Christ, His head was in the heavens, His feet were on trees coming up out of the earth, they were His footstool. I saw closer and His robe dipped in and out of all the universe filling all things with Himself. I knew there was nothing that was not a part of HIM. I saw then as if I were looking at Him thru a magnifying glass and every cell in Him was alive and moving, His robe was made up of people, where the robe was going in and out of the earth the vessels looked more earthy, as you looked higher the vessels in Him were more and more filled with light......till all was light.....
I knew even more in my being that all things belonged to Him, all was of Him, all was being transformed. I saw people climbing the two trees under His feet, One tree under His right foot, One under His left foot and they were trying to get to His feet to touch them to be changed........people were climbing all over to get to Him, drawn to Him and all were moving higher and higher...
from those moments till now nothing could ever convince me otherwise, all is His, all is right on schedule, moving and guided by Him.....nothing that is made is not thru Him
He is LORD
kept
:cloud9: That was amazing Kept......thanks for posting this..... :thumbsup:
willieH: Hi kept... :hithere:
I agree with Cardinal... :goodpost:
pEAce... :boogie:
In
JESUS
...willieH :thumbsup:
Quote from: Kept on October 12, 2007, 01:45:37 AM
For me it was dropped in my spirit in my living room in the middle of the night. I will never forget that night as long as I live. It was close to Yom Kippur and it was a divine moment when suddenly I KNEW that I knew Gods heart for the first time......then for a few months God built upon that knowing first by showing me the all in Adam then the all In Christ. I also had a vision that sealed it for me, it was right after that night. I saw Christ, His head was in the heavens, His feet were on trees coming up out of the earth, they were His footstool. I saw closer and His robe dipped in and out of all the universe filling all things with Himself. I knew there was nothing that was not a part of HIM. I saw then as if I were looking at Him thru a magnifying glass and every cell in Him was alive and moving, His robe was made up of people, where the robe was going in and out of the earth the vessels looked more earthy, as you looked higher the vessels in Him were more and more filled with light......till all was light.....
I knew even more in my being that all things belonged to Him, all was of Him, all was being transformed. I saw people climbing the two trees under His feet, One tree under His right foot, One under His left foot and they were trying to get to His feet to touch them to be changed........people were climbing all over to get to Him, drawn to Him and all were moving higher and higher...
from those moments till now nothing could ever convince me otherwise, all is His, all is right on schedule, moving and guided by Him.....nothing that is made is not thru Him
He is LORD
kept
WOW Kept, what a wonderful thing to experience! :girlheart:
I think Im a Thomas guys, God has always spoken to me visually, guess He knows I need to see things to believe.......
most dont so noone think that if you have not had visions and such that means anything but that you dont need them like those of us who have do.....
love you all
:HeartThrob:
kept
Wow, all of the stories are GREAT! I hope more people share :icon_flower:
Thanks for starting the topic WilleH :thumbsup:
I don't have a grand story... the only thing I have is God saying to me "I am not like that" in regards to "eternally torturing people".
PEACE and Love :girlheart:
:cloud9: Amen Kept, me too......I've always said I'm so dense He has to show me pictures ;).......think about it........it's quicker for Him, too.......
I have had many personal and amazing things happen to me during my years as a Christian, but my coming to understand UR was less spectacular and rather ordinary, I guess. I met our friend Juan Alberto on another forum and argued with him until I saw it.
John
Quote from: Kratos on October 12, 2007, 06:18:12 AM
I have had many personal and amazing things happen to me during my years as a Christian, but my coming to understand UR was less spectacular and rather ordinary, I guess. I met our friend Juan Alberto on another forum and argued with him until I saw it.
John
:laughing7: won't ever forget those discussions ......... one of the few times I ever saw and felt the anointing on both sides of the argument ............ others saw and felt it too. It truly was a discussion set for more than just us two.
be blessed,
Jack
Jack,
And Blessings on you too, Bro.
John
Amazing how God works in each one differently.
When I was a babe in Christ, I was very into the word and in those days heard the Holy Spirit audibly speaking. Nowadays I sense HE is part of my being rather than an outside force or entity.
I had always has questions of those who never heard of Jesus and had died and specifically could not add Love + ET to = Loving God, the arithmetic did not add up :bigGrin:
In my early studies, can't remember where I was in the bible, I asked the HS the questions I still had and He said, "You let me worry about that for now, you just study."
Having been saved through and ETM preacher's tapes, the rapture and the doom & gloom was there in me and although I still couldn't see it for myself in the bible, I did the turn-or-burn approach. Getting much rejection in this approach not realising why these "idiots" could not see what I was telling them I asked the HS why was this.
He clearly said to me, "You can try telling them about my Love you know"
Show stopper.
Well my witness became silent and then I found peers asking me questions and I just shared love and nothing else.
What a difference, now I had dialogue.
Anyway this year I also discovered a google link to B-T and went there, challenged a bit but found resistance and then had TM on an ET apologetics site listed as a cult so I checked it out.
The rest as they say is history.
So in retrospect, I think I always believed deep down in UR but never realised others thought the same as me.
What I did find at Tent was love and acceptance in spite of and I also found deep knowledge here where people were sharing deep stuff, stuff that I found lacking elsewhere.
For someone needing to 1st see logic in arguments/offerings, this was the place where quickly the change happened from mental to spiritual understanding.
As many ET teachings were not entrenched, it was easier to unlearn the chaff I had been exposed to. Initially like most I was looking for a replacement theology, and this is not what God wanted, he wanted me back the way we used to communicate. Thankfully it is back.
Blessings
:cloud9: Hey Seeker.....He did that with me too. I first heard Him literally audible on occasion, seemingly then softer and softer, which freaked me out at the time because I thought I was getting somehow backslidden for why it was getting softer. He let me stress over that for awhile before letting me know it was softer because He had just "moved in" closer to home, as I was decreasing, He was increasing in me, so ,"no need to shout anymore", LOL.
I was so ignorant and innocent of God's ways that I literally thought hearing Him was like an attribute of this private Christian club I had just joined, almost. I thought they all heard Him all the time, and that was just part of it. I found out real quick that was not necessarily so, with the left foot of fellowship coming my way. Blessings to you....
I have had a love/hate relationship with God most of my life. In and out of churches, looking for truth in all the wrong places. I always thought that this new church I joined has the truth. Then, over time, I started to see the denominational spirit and how noone wanted to deal with my heartfelt questions.
I have battled depression and suicidal thoughts much of my life. One day I was at the lowest point in my life. I told God I hated Him and didn't care if He sent me to hell. I just couldn't stand the thought that a good, loving god would do that to his own creation. I had finally reached the end of my rope, there was no more rope to tie a knot in. I had no answers. Then I remembered a lake of fire series I had seen on L.Ray Smith's website. I started to read and study. For 4 months I did nothing but read my Bible and Ray's website. I couldn't stop. Finally, one morning I woke up with a peace I had never experienced before. I knew God loved all mankind and saved them all. Since that day, over 2 years ago, I have only had one week of depression, and I had hope and knew God would bring me out of it.
Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to me, and for me, and through me!!! I love him so much because he first loved me.
willieH: Hi Shibboleth... :hithere:
Quote from: shibboleth on October 13, 2007, 01:48:51 AM
I have had a love/hate relationship with God most of my life. In and out of churches, looking for truth in all the wrong places. I always thought that this new church I joined has the truth. Then, over time, I started to see the denominational spirit and how noone wanted to deal with my heartfelt questions.
I have battled depression and suicidal thoughts much of my life. One day I was at the lowest point in my life. I told God I hated Him and didn't care if He sent me to hell. I just couldn't stand the thought that a good, loving god would do that to his own creation. I had finally reached the end of my rope, there was no more rope to tie a knot in. I had no answers. Then I remembered a lake of fire series I had seen on L.Ray Smith's website. I started to read and study. For 4 months I did nothing but read my Bible and Ray's website. I couldn't stop. Finally, one morning I woke up with a peace I had never experienced before. I knew God loved all mankind and saved them all. Since that day, over 2 years ago, I have only had one week of depression, and I had hope and knew God would bring me out of it.
Jesus is the best thing that ever happened to me, and for me, and through me!!! I love him so much because he first loved me.
:crywipe: Praise the Lord :bowing: JESUS CHRIST for
YOU, :declare: ...dear Shibboleth... :myahoo: :boogie:
Beautiful and heart felt story! :friendstu:
pEAce... :Sparkletooth:
In
JESUS
...willieH :thumbsup:
willieH: Hi John & Jack! :hithere:
Quote from: Kratos on October 12, 2007, 06:18:12 AM
I have had many personal and amazing things happen to me during my years as a Christian, but my coming to understand UR was less spectacular and rather ordinary, I guess. I met our friend Juan Alberto on another forum and argued with him until I saw it.
John
Ah yes... the Hawaiian/latino
"NEWMAN", strikes again!!! :btongue: :laughing7: Go Jack, ah, ...go Jack, ah, ...go Jack! :trampoline:
pEAce bro... :Sparkletooth:
In
JESUS
...willieH :thumbsup:
:cloud9: Jack.......I didn't know you had an alias........I wondered who this Juan Alberto was, LOL......
And Shib, I second that. Great post. I also battled depression and suicidal thoughts too.....the night I got saved I told Him I didn't care if I lived another day........and I meant it.......then I met the Lord and He showed me what their origins were :eeew: and I joined the Lord's boot camp. That was 21 years ago, and I've only had one battle since and it was after my son was brain-damaged and almost killed. It almost completely broke me again. Without Him, I would never had made it thru. Blessings to you......
Quote from: willieH on October 13, 2007, 02:26:10 AM
willieH: Hi John & Jack! :hithere:
Quote from: Kratos on October 12, 2007, 06:18:12 AM
I have had many personal and amazing things happen to me during my years as a Christian, but my coming to understand UR was less spectacular and rather ordinary, I guess. I met our friend Juan Alberto on another forum and argued with him until I saw it.
John
Ah yes... the latino "NEWMAN", strikes again!!! :btongue: :laughing7: Go Jack, ah, ...go Jack, ah, ...go Jack! :trampoline:
pEAce bro... :Sparkletooth:
In JESUS
...willieH :thumbsup:
Cool.......I had no idea that Jack/AKA Juan/AKA Newman was the one that shared UR with Kratos.
I guess as stubborn as I can be, if I can be reached this way, we should not give up on those stern heresy hunters on other boards. Jack was banned by another of the Moderators on that other forum, but the damage was already done. LOL
:cloud9: Yes, I have noticed that Jack has a (ahem, cough) charm that does seem to defy detection by moderators, at times...... :happygrin: :laughing7:
However, we should never underestimate a man with a fire :Shoot:
why did I know you would get me back Card. :laughing7:
I wet myself with that one.
Jack :gangel:
:cloud9: Because, my friend, you know me too well, LOL...... :thumbsup: :laughing7:
Well here is some of that (ahem, cough) charm that get's me banned from almost every forum I have ever been on.
http://www.mychurch.org/blog/78323/DENICE
too much fire? :dontknow:
:thumbsup: As I said on your blog, that was amazing Jack, and you know how close to home that hits me. Thank God for your obedience to the Spirit.
God in His mercy, raised me up above the death of my emotions when that happened to my son, and I swear the first thought (which I know was Him) I had about the young men that did this to him was, "What must these young men have endured in their young lives already, to make them little more than animals?", putting my focus on His thoughts about them and not mine, which were definitely not as lofty in intent.
I was not long to find out. Someone told me a couple of weeks later, the ringleader watched his father put his mother in the bathtub when she tried to leave him, and set her on fire. I think the person who told me this, said the boy was 7 or 8, somewhere in there. She is horribly disfigured, the police did nothing, and she is still with the monster that lives within him.
After receiving Christ coming out of the rehab hospital, my son, to the glory of God, told me he had been praying for the ones who brain damaged him. I was speechless with awe of the Christ within one so newborn. The ways of God are awesome beyond words. Blessings to you.....
Card I wish you would share that as a comment on that "Denise" post. If you are led. That is powerful.
Truly God is giving us some higher ground there at "My Church"
Jack
PS. thanks Card :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Kept on October 12, 2007, 02:54:50 AM
I think Im a Thomas guys, God has always spoken to me visually, guess He knows I need to see things to believe.......
most dont so noone think that if you have not had visions and such that means anything but that you dont need them like those of us who have do.....
love you all
:HeartThrob:
kept
That's a great take kept. I used to think I was spiritual because of having dreams and visions. God eventually showed me that it was because I was so hard headed - He had to spell stuff out... :mblush:
- byron
Quote from: firstborn888 on October 14, 2007, 04:51:34 AM
Quote from: Kept on October 12, 2007, 02:54:50 AM
I think Im a Thomas guys, God has always spoken to me visually, guess He knows I need to see things to believe.......
most dont so noone think that if you have not had visions and such that means anything but that you dont need them like those of us who have do.....
love you all
:HeartThrob:
kept
That's a great take kept. I used to think I was spiritual because of having dreams and visions. God eventually showed me that it was because I was so hard headed - He had to spell stuff out... :mblush:
- byron
:grin: Interesting point lord byron.....I've never thought about it that way......I think you might be on to something there.
You know when kids are in a daze and they zone out and don't listen to their parents........what usually happens is the parents have to use shock factor to get there kids to stop what they're doing and listen for a minute. Perhaps that's what God does with us quite often. :mshock: :dontknow:
Yes, some of us are geared more visually
I used to think I was special too haha but then found out I was just a little slower than some
I do ride that spiritually short bus alot
probably have a name tag on a seat by now but it fits me
we all will get there eventually what ever way He wants to take us! haha
kept
I'm wondering if on some level, if perhaps I'd always KNOWN, because of a pecularity of my testimony regarding this. I read Charles Slagle's book "Absolute Assurance in Jesus Christ" in 1999 and I saw absolutely no conflicts between it and what I believed. I'm sure that I read it. No big light bulbs went off and I wasn't offended by it. Didn't particularly crave more info. Just went back to what I'd always been doing as far as ministry went. That's had me thinking over the last few weeks "what was up with that?"
But, practically, a seed got planted. Then around February/March of 2001 a friend pointed out to me a copy of Jan Bonda's book "The One Purpose of God: An Answer To The Doctrine of Eternal Punishment" and within a month or so, I'd finished reading it AND........the rest is history...
I'd really gotten ahold of it then, and knew the contrast between UR and everything else that I'd ever been teaching or hearing up until then.
Within a few weeks, I'd read Knoch's "All in all," Jukes's "Restitution of all things," Thomas Talbott's "The Inescapable Love of God," "Analytical Study of Words" by Louis Abbot, "The Greek Word 'Aion,'" by J.W. Hanson, "Plain Guide to Universalism," by Thomas Whittemore, "The Covenant: A Theology of Human Destiny," by Jakob Jocz, "Christ Triumphant," by Thomas Allin, and a few other books. I still couldn't really find rest in it until 2003, when I got my hands on a copy of Elhanan Winchester's "The Universal Restoration." I still had Biblical questions up until then that nobody knew how to answer. I mean nobody. And, I finally got all of my questions answered with Elhanan Winchester's book. I'd been teaching UR a couple of years by then, but still was nagged by the overwhelming sense that I didn't have enough of the Bible under my belt regarding it.
I was never closed to it. My big thing and frustration for a few years was "Show it to me from THE ENTIRE BIBLE!!" and not just from 60, 80, or 100 passages. I feared the consequences of being wrong on so fundamental a consideration of the nature, provision, wisdom, intent, predetermination, and free will of God.
Other books have helped along the way, like Charles Chauncy's light read "Mystery Hid From Ages And Generations," but Jan Bonda's book, Hanson's "The Greek Word 'Aion,'" "Analytical Study of Words," by Louis Abbot, and Elhanan Winchester's Dialogues on the Universal Restoration really helped to ground me. Jakob Jocz's book "The Covenant: A Theology of Human Destiny" was helpful with helping me understand WHY I needed to resolve this issue and why this was important to my understanding, my ministry, and my sanity.
I never want to be without a copy, or even very far from copies, of Jan Bonda's book, Andrew Jukes's book, Thomas Talbott's book, and Elhanan Winchester's book. Those are my UR "catechism."
I agonized over why UR was unacceptable to other Christians, but never about it being true. I agonized about how to hold it in "Reserve," to protect my ministry work, but it was one of the greatest breakthroughs of my relationship with the Lord that I've ever had. I'm genuinely not sure how much I actually believed it until I read Elhanan Winchester's book for the first time in 2003, although I'd already seen it and was already teaching it.
Yeah, I just said that I'd been teaching it, even online for a couple of years, before I really believed it. So, what did that make it for me? About a 4 year process from when I read Charles Slagle's book in 1999 to where both my mind and heart were at-one-ment with the message. It takes a while to totally flush out the human heart after it's had years and years of the message of Christ's ultimate failure in some lives because of their free will, His not having made provision sufficient for each life, or, and more commonly, His not having enough follow through with each individual life until they're all presented before the Father in 1Corinthians 15:28 as perfectly in tune with the divine nature through His own Faith, Grace, and Blood!
:bgdance:
I found about tentmaker.org and the doctrine of universal reconciliation while looking up arguments against a Calvinist who was trying to convince me God picked and chose who goes to Heaven and who goes to Hell.
I totally had the concept dropped in my lap by the Holy Spirit a couple years back. I was reading comments posted on a topic at a totally unrelated natural health website. The lady made an offhanded comment at the end of her comment, with a link to L. Ray Smith's website. I was so intrigued by the way she made the comment that I followed the link, and started reading. I felt the stirring of the Spirit while I read, but my first reaction was, "this guy's got to be wrong, he's off his nut. This goes against everything I've ever been taught." :mshock:
Enter the voice of the Holy Spirit: "Tim, how many other things do you now know as truth that go against everything you've ever been taught?" :mblush:
I kept reading. I read all of Ray's stuff. I read most of the stuff Martin mentioned plus a ton of other stuff online. I read "Hope Beyond Hell".I read The Evangelical Universalist. I read What does the Bible really say about Hell? Two years later I'm totally convinced. My relationship with God has deepened and taken a turn that I've never had before, or ever been able to have before. He's still breaking much bondage in my life, but I understand God in a whole new way now, and I'll never be able to see things the same way again. :cloud9:
:goodpost: you always have a great witness/testimony Doc :dsunny:
ya make my day :thumbsup:
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 04:42:07 AM
:goodpost: you always have a great witness/testimony Doc :dsunny:
ya make my day :thumbsup:
Thanks, RR.
Hi Doc, Ray has some awesome material one can learn so much from the emails alone.
A internet friend directed me there a couple years ago, I was thrilled.
I haven't found anything but truth in his papers.
Quote from: SQ on December 05, 2008, 11:16:01 PM
Hi Doc, Ray has some awesome material one can learn so much from the emails alone.
A internet friend directed me there a couple years ago, I was thrilled.
I haven't found anything but truth in his papers.
I beg to differ :icon_flower:
but each to their own :icon_flower:
Quote from: Taffy on December 05, 2008, 11:21:51 PM
Quote from: SQ on December 05, 2008, 11:16:01 PM
Hi Doc, Ray has some awesome material one can learn so much from the emails alone.
A internet friend directed me there a couple years ago, I was thrilled.
I haven't found anything but truth in his papers.
I beg to differ :icon_flower:
but each to their own :icon_flower:
:icon_flower: I as well Taff :msealed:
Well that is ok, we are all seeking truth. :thumbsup:
Quote from: SQ on December 06, 2008, 12:59:51 AM
Well that is ok, we are all seeking truth. :thumbsup:
Hi SQ, How ya doing...
I too was at Bts for many seasons, twas I who gave it that abreviation Bro..
irrespective , we grow and Move on with understanding , again each where they are NOW AT ...Tis the "LIGHT of Knowledge" which matters Bro, which indeed differs from mans perspective TRUTH
:icon_flower:
Good to have you sharing :icon_flower:
It was in a season of great despair...I had "lost" (actually, God moving me) what on the surface was a very important job to me. I was in such despair that I initially prayed to God to die. I had difficulty with things like hell and forever, fearful, much due to my ultra-fundamentalist upbringing. During that period of time, I began to search information about hell, I think maybe even in the back of my mind hoping there was some other way about it, maybe something I'd missed. One of, if not the first person I ran across was J. Preston Eby. I believe I had just googled 'hell', and there it was. Needless to say, having been raised hell-fire and brimstone, I was amazed and thrilled at what I was reading. Since that time of God opening my eyes, I see UR throughout the Bible, and praise God for it...for His mercy and righteous judgment. And He is (undeservedly) blessing me, bringing dawn after the darkness. God's blessing, James.
I for one never accepted that hell was a Place of ET,..wierd..never gave it a Thought for yrs...if ever,....Hell was always the Grave , a Place of DEATH not torture.
One came to see Salvation for all gradually ,as the scrips unfolded in the their SPIRITUAL Light , which I found began to say the same message...and still do
so it was nt a shock really , the understanding Gave me surety to within , which was already there. :icon_flower:
Isn't it amazing how you can think that you're a good Christian that believes all of the Word, but when God decides to make an issue of this, then suddenly everything that the Bible has to say about unbelief, a wicked heart of unbelief, hardness of heart, not knowing His ways and not entering into His rest, etc., suddenly applies to you for a season while you search for how everything in the Scriptures fits in with a belief in this? Knowing you're disbelieving something that God's showing you is a very disgusting feeling when you've always been on the receiving end of Christian doctrine and have always considered yourself a believer. For me, the thoughts and emotions that would come out of nowhere about why this can't possibly be true were hair raising 'cause I'd had enough of a revelation of this as well as enough of an intellectual persuasion of this from the Scriptures to know that all of that was my baggage that I had to work through and to fully renew my mind to the Scriptures.
I went to a Church of Christ for years, was quite happy with most of their beliefs. The hell thing always disturbed me some but as the Bible spoke of forever and ever, etc. I couldn't find a way out of it and just figured, like the preachers said, God didn't send us to hell, we chose to go there.
Then after one of many Bible studies with some women in the church, I became quite unhappy. We were studying other religions, well, we went through a book from OUR church's standpoint giving the highlights of these other 'religions' and I was appalled at the coldness of some of the other women how they could just accept that these other people were going to hell just because they were born in a country where most people were of that faith, their parents had brought them up that way, etc. But strangely enough I started doing a search on baptism, guess I wasn't ready to admit I was questioning the whole faith issue so I began to wonder what getting baptized had to do with our salvation, it was just another ritual. First I read books from the church's library and it seemed to answer my quesitons. But later they resurfaced and I reread the one book I really liked and I didn't find any assurance there this time. Eventually I started searching on the internet and finally found one that convinced me our salvation wasn't based on any rituals we may or may not do in this life.
But that didn't stop me searching, Looking back, I think the hell thing is what was really bothering me cuz I kept finding other problems with what the church taught. Like once saved always saved, my church didn't believe that. But I thought it had to be the truth because once you gained eternal life, how could you lose it???? or you wouldn't have it to begin with. Anyway the next thing I knew I was a Calvinist from the sovereignty passages I kept coming upon in the articles I was reading. But that was even worse, because in that line, God had preplanned people to go to hell. So I started checking out universalism and while reading an article, I can't remember whose now, I just believed that because it seemed more like a loving God. Then I discovered that aion doesn't mean eternity, etc, but I believed in UR before I knew that.
I do remember crying though and feeling like God was talking to me personally. It probably was a period of 3-4 years with all this searciing. Then one day it hit me, I remembered talking with a man years before in a Christian chat room who had tried to convince me that God would save everyone eventually, but at that time I wouldn't have any of it. Pretty ironic, I think.
I was a bit disappointed that even in the universalist camp, there are still doctrinal disagreements, but it's ok. I even was on a forum years ago where the guy who started it and some others beleived in reincarnation, too weird for me. I guess we're all where we're supposed to be. I tried to tell my sisters about my discovery but they weren't at all pleased and they think I'm wierd, to say the least, lol
Hope I didn't bore you with my long story.
Hi Scarlet ,
I for one loved your testimony sis .
I to wondered about baptism , circumcision the law etc , and even though I did lot of the rituals I felt nor different inside . I felt no power of God that said I should in the bible or life , I felt worse because I could not do all they asked of me , I was with 3 little ones no husband , he refused to go to church and my baby girl was born severely afflicted . I knew I needed God in my life , because I could not cope or go on this way anylonger , Life seemed pointless at that time in my life and had grown weary of it all , desperate even . I searched for meaning to it , and the people and preacher did not like women period to speak at all in chruch , we were to always be quiet
and Hell was a constant sermon , with much blasting . I was glad God made a way of escape , It became personal with the Lord you could say under His wing ,''protected ' in a way all I know is we are grateful for His slavation and it does not depend on our dead works , but His live and holy ones working through us all as He allows :cloud9:
I have also found in UR so many different beliefs as well :mshock:
I desire all to be filled with His righteousness , but first we got to get real hungry and thirsty first looking for Him , dont you ?
Hello Rose Red,
Hungry is a great word. That's what motivated me. Driven even. I would read Paul's epistles and one place it really seemed like he was saying God's love would encompass all and then a few verses later it seemed like if you didn't do such and such or stay this certain way, you were doomed. I remember wanting to throw my Bible against the wall because how could we possibly, as Christians, do all that seemed required of us, let alone those who weren't blessed enough to be born in the right place, to the right parents, or where missionaries were preaching, etc. He made us and knew how easy it was for us to be deceived, to fall into temptation which is all around etc etc.
It took me a long time to get to where I am, at rest, not finished yet but secure in the notion that He who started a good work in me, will finish it. That God has a desire to the work of His hands. But I did find some great help along the way. I voraciously read online books by a man named Arlen Chitwood, who was not a universalist, but spoke of salvation of the soul and spirit. He said that we are spiritually reborn at the moment of our faith in Him but that our soul takes a long time to be 'saved'. That that's where works, etc comes in, and that the only loss we suffered if we 'blew it' was loss of rewards, etc. Of course, he emphasized that these works weren't our works but what He would accomplish in and through us. I also discovered a man named Chuck Misler who had many tapes and opened (of course it was God but He used Misler) my eyes to the types in the Old Testament and I loved that. The book of Ruth, Jonah, began to have much more meaning to me. In the universalist outlook, they even become deeper and more wide in scope. So I would be comfortable for awhile.
I suppose it is inevetible that there are wide differences in beliefs as to doctrines even amongst universalists and yet the salvation (restoration actually which is much more a thing of God's doing) is the glue which holds us together. I was amazed when I found so many others believe this way, and more converting each day. And still no voice do we carry in this country. The church fears us more than atheists it seems.
Rose, my husband would go to church, but he didn't like to actually sit through the service. He would volunteer to count the money, etc. He was physically there but not mentally. Countless times when he was in the pew with me, he would lean over and whisper to me something he thought would be good for lunch or dinner, or some other thoughts. It would sadden me. He didn't take a spiritual leader role or talk about God with me. He only went, in my opinion, because he thought it was a good thing for us to be there as a family for the sake of the kids. Which I guess I should be thankful for. My oldest, a son, was already living out here in Tucson when I started my journey, and my daughter was at the age when she wouldn't really talk to me about anything. I tried to tell her some of what I have learned but I think it just confused her. She is now 27 and doesn't go to church, hasn't even looked for one since moving out here to be near her brother and I. My ex lost a lot when he left me, for now he has no one back in Ohio, he and his sister haven't been close for years and his father is in very poor health in his late 90's, not expected to live much longer.
I have had some difficult battles with feelings of desertion and resentment but am slowly recovering. I have an awful cold which started Friday so I'm not working today since I'm a caregiver working with elderly clients. I don't get paid for sick days tho so it's a mixed feeling. Happy to be home but wondering about the bills and Christmas. I have to give it to the Lord and not worry.
I get chatty sometimes, lol, ok a lot. Just give me one ounce of encouragement and I will take off like a jackrabbit. :bgdance: :icon_flower:
Hi Scarlet
I find you posts most refreshing and enjoyable sis!
I really mean that ,
Sorry to hear of your sickness , we are too having some type of clod/flu thing going on here in Southern Ind . weird weather that is hard to get used to this time of year it seems :sigh:
praying you get to feeling better soon dear .
My Husband , now is the most precious thing , we dont go to church either but we have some deep conversations about the Lord now , that I know the Good Lord is doing
I honestly did not think we would make it this far :mshock:
your hubby may realize he needs you in his life still , it hurts when you still love some one and have grown apart
many years we struggled like that
I never know how I feel much less him and our children are nearly grown , my baby boy is 18 and goes in the Air Force this spring , and I am crying secretly already , when I am alone ,
I find this world harsh at times , and I dont know How I would cope without just talikng to God ,
I just read the other day How Jesus said, Father, I know you always hear me and that stuck me , in such a way .as never brfore
That confidence and faith , wow I have been on cloud nine since
Thanking Jesus for letting me hear the Spirit speak to me again
it had been quite a dry spell , my bones were begining dry up again inside lol
I love the way you said that about the soul being longer to get saved , I so agree the very scriptures witness that too !
I have never heard of the fellows you have mentioned , but I will now !
thank you and God love ya sis , I have really enjoyed this fellowship with you today :HeartThrob:
Rose
Thank you Rose, again,
I have no thought of getting back together with my ex-husband. He's back in Ohio and I've moved out here to Arizona.
It's good that you can talk about your spiritual feelings with your husband. Cherish that.
I'm sure we will have more to discuss in the future, lol.
Quote from: rosered on December 05, 2008, 11:59:05 PM
Quote from: Taffy on December 05, 2008, 11:21:51 PM
Quote from: SQ on December 05, 2008, 11:16:01 PM
Hi Doc, Ray has some awesome material one can learn so much from the emails alone.
A internet friend directed me there a couple years ago, I was thrilled.
I haven't found anything but truth in his papers.
I beg to differ :icon_flower:
but each to their own :icon_flower:
:icon_flower: I as well Taff :msealed:
I have to agree with RR and Taff.
I notice that a lot of people on this board mention L. Ray Smith, and his site happens to be the first one I ended up at. I never send anyone else there, because there are lots of other folks who do a much better job on the UR stuff than he does.
Hiya!
I was blessed to know God is Love.
Even in an everlasting hell scenario in which probably all of us were first taught, I was so blessed to be taught the more important things than hell.
Hell is not important, neither is heaven.
What is important is God, and that He is Love, and we are to be like Him.
Just as it was inevitable to sin when we had no knowledge of it, it is inevitable to be righteous when we are knowledgable of it.
Origen, one of the more public proponents of Universal Salvation, made it very clear in his writings, in which I can testify:
It is implanted in every human being, the desire to do what is right and good for one's survival. At the same time, God had created us in ignorance to what is right and good for one's survival. He also created us with the functionality of a mind, with the sensory of the heart to learn and understand truly what is good and what is evil by our actions.
Therefore, sin is a result of not knowing what was right and good for one's survival, doing the complete opposite to that which we desire even though at the time we felt or thought for sure it was correct. A life led by ignorance, is a life full of continual sin.
God has given us the knowledge of the truth, a knowledge which finally understood, truly is right and good for one's survival. The problem is, in order to experience it in this life, one must believe it by faith. Otherwise, we will be waking up in the final resurrection of the dead, ashamed, but seeing exactly what it was which was right and good.
Knowing what is right and good for one's survival, is not selfishness, but a reality. Life is God, therefore if one desires it, they must know Him and do what He does.
God is Love.
I was revealed the knowledge of the truth for so long, even though I was also taught the lie of everlasting hell, that it was inevitable that I would believe the truth. The truth has set me free and was far superior than the lie. The lie was shown for what it was, and it is right and good for my survival to believe that Agape! Jesus saved all mankind, not some.
:bgdance:
What I did find at Tent was love and acceptance in spite of and I also found deep knowledge here where people were sharing deep stuff, stuff that I found lacking elsewhere.
Same for me.........deep stuff at our church too......Praise God.....that there was more Truth for me...I was in the process of quiting...because so much didn't make sense.
Now I could just sit in church, here on the Forum, all day long. Everyone should have a PC.....
Finally! Thank you Lord. For keeping on with me. He is always there. I felt like I was in prison in the last church....definitely not at first..........I knew God was using churches for me to learn....like stepping stones; ....at first thinking it was the last one
lol
I consider it a possibility He revealed it to me by this thread. I had been suffering from obsessive religious thoughts for a while and a few days ago I developed a severe, persistent headache because of these thoughts. Feeling pretty hopeless I happened to read this thread. I folded my hands and said aloud "Maybe it is really true... I have always understood you totally wrong, God". Then I suddenly felt blood starting to rush like the ocean in my head. Very soon the headache was gone and a feeling of peace came over me.
I have the same thing...I will get congested and pressure,but now I realize this is how I pickup witchcraft(false doctrine)
I would be sitting in a church service(I have since stopped attending) and suddenly I would grab my head and then I would know to be aware of what was going on around me and what was being spoken
So it is a sort of early warning sign :happy3:
blessings :icon_king:
The Lord began to reveal His universal love to me about two years ago. In hindsight, I think He has always been revealing it to me but I was too dull to realise. I think God must have been saying, "I'm over here stupid!" to me. lol.
I was brought up in a Word of Faith family, which is not common in the UK, as it seems to be in the USA. So I was brought up to believe, not only in hell but also in the idea that Jesus went to hell and had a fight with the devil. Add to that the idea that Jesus' death and "fight in hell" was not only to save me from hell, but also to make me rich, and you had a very conflicted girl.
As I approached my teens I found myself questioning so much I had been taught, although I always loved Jesus - it was the church I was sick of. I'm naturally quite firey and questioning, however I was living with an extremely physically abusive father, which crushed my character into a shy, victim-like persona. My faith questions rattled around in my head and I didn't have the courage to seek answers.
Halfway through high school, my father exited my life, I began to become 'me' again and the questions started tumbling out. I remember asking my grandmother why we teach Jesus went to hell to fight the devil when it is found nowhere in scripture. I was answered that this is what the "great men of God" teach. This seemed to be a standard answer; that and out of context scriptures. The problem was that all I could see was the "great men of God" getting fat off of the money of poor people and living self indulgently. Rarely was the cross ever preached, unlesss it was to reference what we could get out of it. I also was having recurring nightmares of hell and demons that were so real I could physically feel pain in my sleep.
My mother prayed with me and the dreams left, but I was still so unsatisfied. A God who HAS to burn His children forever, then wants you to be grateful if He offers to not put you in the hell-hole He made, made little sense to me. I kept studying, reading, praying etc for years.
Finally, two years ago, I was driving alone and suddenly began to weep uncontrollably. It was as though every trouble I had inside just came running out. I cried out (when I think back, it sounded like a shriek of pain) "I don't believe it! I don't believe You abandon us! I don't believe your cross was so cheap! I don't believe You died to make us rich! There has to be more than this or I have no wish to keep living." Somehow, I was perfectly safe even though I was driving in a 60mph zone. It was a surreal experience, one that has never repeated.
The only way I can describe it is that it was as though God took all the hurt, confusion, distress and hunger out, and suddenly, I just knew. I knew God loved us astronomically, because He is good, not because we're good. I nknew that real life is to follow Him. And I knew following Him meant to die with Him, live with Him, suffer with Him, reign with Him... That real, fulfilling life was to follow Him to the ends of the earth, wherever He might lead, doing all He said and loving as He loves. I think that is part of our sanctification; that Christ did it all first so that we mere mortals can follow in His footsteps, becoming more like Him as we are crucified with Christ.
I then began to laugh through weeping. It was all lies! The angry, wrathful God of hate was a lie! The cheap, selfish, unsatisfying salvation I'd been taught was a lie! I wanted to yell for happiness, then it was as though my feelings were normalised and I was aware I was driving again (still perfectly safely).
I started to devour the scriptures, seeking for confirmation of what I believed and I found my merciful Father in every page. My family/friends thought, and probably still do, that I was losing my faith. But they were wrong. I was falling in love with Jesus and could not, honestly, start "claiming God's prosperity/car/house/whatever." While searching amazon for more study material, I found a link here and here I am! I'm now praying that God will enable me to "have an answer for the faith within me", so that I can let my family know REAL good news!
Just an aside; it is common online to think all WoF christians are heretics. While I think many charlatons lead this movement, I know my own family really love God and try to be gfaithful to Him.
:cloud9: We have a standing joke on here, that we're all "hairy ticks" = heretics. Welcome to the family..... :thumbsup:
"People are not born heretics, they just have heresy thrust upon them."
peacemaker
Hehe hairy ticks.
We are to defend the truth from heresy according to Paul, but so many people seem to see heretics round every corner. My family are just deceived. They believe all the awsomeness (yes, I know that's not a word!) of God's loving character and grace, while also believing ET. Like so many people who love God, they haven't noticed the contradiction! They give out of their lack to the poor, while at the same time believing Jesus died to make us rich. :sigh:
They believe stuff like that 'drilling down to hell, recording people screaming' audio hoax and the other day gave me a load of Jack Chick tracts. Never mind, our wonderful Father draws us all to Him in His own good time
I've heard that audio hoax, truly hideous to anyone, who might think it's true, very chilling audio, even though it's ridicolous. Somehow men get penalized with eternal roasting, but Angels who left Gods heaven and did despicable things not fit to mention are only chained in darkness, bit of a double standard.
as i read this thread i am wondering how i became a UR/UC, i do remember somehow reading some of Ray Smith's teachings and then tentmaker. it is amazing how a few weeks can change a person. just a month ago i wanted to stand in front of catholic churches and preach that they will burn if they keep doing what they are doing. i was willing to be shunned by all. i wanted to do this because i thought they needed to know the truth, which i was taught in the pentecostal church. now i am amazed how i was, just a month ago, about to be leading people in church, and now i have no desire to lead anyone unless they want the truth. it just amazes me how me and my church member can disagree on certain topic tonges, rapture etc.. and still get along, but the moment i mention no hell i am outcasted. i am still new to this and the only real fellowship i get is reading these threads. one day i know i will meet someone here in san antonio with the same beliefs. until then God bless.
Even though I had read J. Preston Eby's teachings before I had somehow always missed this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JEwcWR8kxUs
Testimony of how Bro. Eby came to the understanding of the salvation of all.
Quote from: santikos on July 29, 2010, 08:12:24 PMit is amazing how a few weeks can change a person.
Maybe you didn't really change.
You were a sheep in wolf skin :winkgrin: It just took a little time to remove the wolf skin, santikos wasn't completely rebuilt :drama:
:cloud9: Yep, all it takes one, twinkling of an eye, and your whole perspective has changed. God changes us from the inside out, man's doctrines try to change us from the outside in, and it never works. :laughing7: Blessings....
Testimony of George deBenneville. I just skimmed through it, gotta read it more properly later on but seemed very powerful and interesting.
http://universalistchurch.net/universalist-history/life-and-trance-of-george-debenneville/
:cloud9: I felt led to read it all, and I was glad I did. The Lord blessed me thru it. Thanks for posting it. :thumbsup:
Quote from: WillieHThe SALVATION of ALL... how did GOD reveal it to you?
The funny answer would be "Google".
Personally I think nothing was revealed to me. Or at least I'm not aware of it.
I was Googling for lyrics of my favorite band. I just accidently found a Christian ET site.
Bit of reading. More Googling and a few weeks later I was on this site.
But as said is that God revealing me something? I mean if I Google for "USA" and learn Obama is president; is that a revelation from God?
Same when Googling lyrics. How can I know?
youll know, you wont have to ask or wonder. When its the Holy Spirit you wont wonder.
And yes God may use Google.
I was first cracked towards UR when a brother from Canada taught it in a fellowship I was working in in Denver Colorado, in '79 and introduced me to the writing of Andrew Jukes. I wavered between UR and ED for awhile. Finally the compounded sum of Eph 1:9-11, Col 1:16-20, 1 Corinthians 15:23-28,Phil 2:10 and Romans 11- just won me over. But it wasn't until after I read Jukes again and did my own word studies on olam, aionian and "hell" that I began to boldly proclaim UR as the 6th(in Hebrews 6) foundation stone - the doctrine of eternal judgment (judgment meaning- why God has done what He has done, rather than "who God condemns" as it is taught in churchianity).
I also gratefully acknowledge the "iron sharpening iron" and general edification on this site (along with a couple others) as bringing me into a more focused and equipped grip on the "glorious gospel".
I learned it from HOPE BEYOND HELL by Gerry Beauchemin
:bigGrin:
For another good testimony, click this link: http://www.kingdomgospel.net/newsletter/issue227.pdf
Go to page 3 and read "Is Jesus The Savior of All?"
(I'm not able to copy-paste)
My journey towards UR started with the book "The Shack" :mshock: .... which started me down the road of a deeper understanding of my Heavenly Father's love for me....... which led me to read "He Loves Me" by Wayne Jacobsen (He doesn't believe UR) which exploded further my understanding of Father's love for us all and how "religion" stifles that understand as potrayed in the story of "The Prodigal Son"...... Which lead me to "The God Journey Forum"..... About a year ago someone on that forum gave the link to Tentmaker..... and the rest as they say is history..... Wow!!!!! what a awesome God of Love that cannot and will not fail to draw all men to Himself :boyheart:
Since then I have read and studied just about everything that I can find on UR .... After almost 40 years of studying and teaching the scriptures... it now all fits together like a big beautiful puzzle that shows me Father as ALL in ALL :happy3:
Now the task of de-programming myself (so I won't see the scriptures in the old way) ... so that I can read the scriptures with new eyes :happy3: and teach this wonderful truth that truly sets us free.
I have been getting a lot of help through the writings of Clyde Pilkington and his website www.studyshelf.com. ...but I'm sure alot of you already know that site :grin:
Grace and Peace
Robert
wow. beautiful poetry.
Quote from: urpilgrim on November 25, 2010, 02:45:12 AM
My journey towards UR started with the book "The Shack" :mshock: .... which started me down the road of a deeper understanding of my Heavenly Father's love for me....... which led me to read "He Loves Me" by Wayne Jacobsen (He doesn't believe UR) which exploded further my understanding of Father's love for us all and how "religion" stifles that understand as potrayed in the story of "The Prodigal Son"...... Which lead me to "The God Journey Forum"..... About a year ago someone on that forum gave the link to Tentmaker..... and the rest as they say is history..... Wow!!!!! what a awesome God of Love that cannot and will not fail to draw all men to Himself :boyheart:
Since then I have read and studied just about everything that I can find on UR .... After almost 40 years of studying and teaching the scriptures... it now all fits together like a big beautiful puzzle that shows me Father as ALL in ALL :happy3:
Now the task of de-programming myself (so I won't see the scriptures in the old way) ... so that I can read the scriptures with new eyes :happy3: and teach this wonderful truth that truly sets us free.
Really nice testimony Robert. :thumbsup:
I love these stories!
The Shack moved me beyond description, there is a strong anointing in that book. I read it in the first 3 months of my daughter's birth and it was a magnificent timing by God!
I highly recommend Wayne's Book "He Loves Me".... It's a wonderful resource for those who are trapped in religious traditions that do not really fill the heart with Father's love.
Checkout www.lifestream.org for other great resources :thumbsup:
Quote from: urpilgrim on November 25, 2010, 07:50:04 PM
I highly recommend Wayne's Book "He Loves Me".... It's a wonderful resource for those who are trapped in religious traditions that do not really fill the heart with Father's love.
Checkout www.lifestream.org for other great resources :thumbsup:
From the same site:
"This book is an unabashed invitation to stop trying to make God fit into our lives, and make our lives fit God's unearthly scheme." -- Marshall Shelley, Senior Editor, Leadership Journal
Book DescriptionAre you confused? Burned out? Disillusioned by your church experience? Discover how intimacy with the Living God and his family can fulfill your deepest hungers.
The words of Jesus area as timely today as they were then... "You say, 'I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.' But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked."
THE NAKED CHURCH is an invitation for believers to forsake superficial Christianity and discover true intimacy with God. This compelling book will challenge you to look beyond the externals of contemporary church life with its glittering buildings, extensive programs, beloved celebrities and political muscle and find a relationship with God that will bring his powerful, life-changing presence into everyday circumstances.
At a time when it's popular to be "spiritual" and easy to be "religious," Wayne Jacobsen sounds the call back to the joy and freedom of a dynamic relationship with the living God.
Download the 256 page book for free (http://www.lifestream.org/download.php?f=7)
You can download "He Loves Me" too. It's the first edition, not much difference from other editions.
Just the last part of chap 22 in the first has been extended into its own chap (23) in the newer editions. And some wording changes in the newer editions.
Still a must read :thumbsup:
Thanks URP,
I overlooked that download. (http://www.lifestream.org/waynes-books.php?bid=5)
Who's the author of this "The Shack" book? I think there are several books with that name.
Quote from: Aleax on November 19, 2010, 08:50:27 PM
For another good testimony, click this link: http://www.kingdomgospel.net/newsletter/issue227.pdf
Go to page 3 and read "Is Jesus The Savior of All?"
(I'm not able to copy-paste)
Okay, now that I'm on a PC with a better pdf reader (I don't have an internet access at home atm) I'll copy-paste, for the sake of convenience.
--
IS JESUS THE SAVIOUR OF ALL? Elaine--I feel the Spirit dealing with me to address this controversial issue. I find that most of those who are called to the high calling of God have re-ceived the truth of this doctrine from the Holy Spirit Himself. In our travels we met many who wanted us to believe that Jesus is the Saviour of all mankind. I couldn't say "Amen" to anything they told me, for I had to hear it from the Lord Himself. I set myself to seek the Lord concerning this, and, in time, He confirmed to me that it was true. Bill wasn't yet sure so didn't want me to tell others about it until it would be confirmed to him. I agreed that I wouldn't bring it up unless they did. After that, I swear they started sharing this truth after we were barely in their door! That prompted Bill to earnest prayer and the Lord made it very real to him also.
The Lord knows how to encourage His ser-vants. Someone came to the door from a church in town and said, "Our pastor heard that there was someone here who is preaching that the Lord is going to save all men. Would you come and min-ister at our church and tell us about that?" So, he ministered this good word to 100 people!
Then, came the weekend we spent with Larry and Betty Hodges. Larry said he had been coming against this message recently in his writings. I kept silent, so he asked, "You don't believe that, do you?" This really put me on the spot, for I really wanted to be friends with them, and if I dis-agreed on this subject, that might spoil our bud-ding friendship. I had a little mental battle and then admitted, "Yes, I do."
The challenge was right there: "Tell me why you believe it."
I refused to do this. I said, "I sought the Lord until He told me the truth of the matter. Why don't you ask Him to show you? I'm not going to try to convince you!"
Larry admitted, "I never thought of praying about it! I don't know why! I've asked Him about other things and He's told me about them." Yet, all weekend he tried to get me to talk about it and I refused to do so!
The end of the matter was that the Lord made it very real to his heart from the Word. I was sur-prised when he even wrote a book about it! When it came to his ministry, it presented problems be-cause none of those to whom he ministered be-lieved in this doctrine. He was invited to minister at a house meeting of a dozen or so close friends who did not give him a very friendly reception. They made it clear they did not want him to come again if that was what he was going to talk about!
Yet, Larry still had to wage a private battle concerning this doctrine. He prayed, "Lord, I re-joice to know that You died to save all men and shall, in Your appointed time, bring them all. But, is it necessary to preach it? Wouldn't it be all right if I believed it for myself but didn't share it with others? Is there any real reason why I should ruin my ministry by telling others about it?"
I shall never forget the answer the Lord gave him! "If My people are to be conformed to My image as you teach, how shall they, unless they see Me as I truly am and not as tradition has taught?" Larry recognized that this was a direct reference to one of his favorite scriptures—I John 3:1,2 which says, "Behold, what manner of love the Father has bestowed upon us, that we 3
"I instantly knew that I was required to teach this message to those of Israel who are "of the captivity" (of Babylon) Ezek. 3:11.It is a fact that the entire teaching of eternal torment rests upon the translation of the single word aion or aeon. Aeon means "age." I discovered that the words "everlasting" and "eternal" were the same Greek word, aionios." (unquote)
Hannah Whitall Smith, a well-known evangeli-cal writer, was 'caught up' in the spirit and God revealed His purposes to her. In reconciliation, "Christ is to be satisfied." And through that satis-faction He is to make all mankind "alive." After her death, these portions were removed from her book by her publishers, so that this truth was lost from her anointed pen. We have a copy of this lost chapter called My Unexpected Discovery. Ask for it if you are interested.
:thumbsup:
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
Quote from: Aleax on December 07, 2010, 03:03:21 PM
Who's the author of this "The Shack" book? I think there are several books with that name.
Wm. Paul Young... I just pulled the book off the shelf the other day, heard about it some time ago. I found it very good in places, very enlightening on somethings. You just gotta love the love tho :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
I really like the bold part. I even made a poll about a similar question a while back.
Quote from: Aleax on December 07, 2010, 03:09:56 PM
"I instantly knew that I was required to teach this message to those of Israel who are "of the captivity" (of Babylon) Ezek. 3:11.It is a fact that the entire teaching of eternal torment rests upon the translation of the single word aion or aeon. Aeon means "age." I discovered that the words "everlasting" and "eternal" were the same Greek word, aionios." (unquote)
I think the other problem is the translation/understanding of fire.
UR doesn't mean that instead of eternally God only uses a blowtorch on your for only a year...
My husband attends a men's breakfast bible study at our presbyterian church. The first book he brought home was very confusing, but there was a footnote about a book called, "If Grace Is True", by Philip Gulley and James McHolland. I read it and for the first time in decades something made perfect sense. I had walked out of a women's bible study after the teacher declared ,"God only hears the prayers of Christians." I couldn't believe a perfect God could not hear all of his children, and this book, 8 years after my walk out, was like manna from heaven. The peace I feel is real, not driven from fear, not being assured by others that I am saved because I said the right words.
I'm glad this thread was bumped up. I've enjoyed reading all of this. Inspiring!
I'll try to explain as best I can my experiences-and try to make it short, because the story is as old as I am. :)
I remember feeling free to speak to Jesus at a very young age. Even that young, part of my day was spent in prayer. I was a curious kid, and was always questioning Jesus and felt he answered me. At 7 my family went to church the first time. It was a typical baptist church. We were there for a year when I got a nasty case of scarlet fever. I was sick for a couple of weeks before it was decided they would ask the pastor to do a laying on of hands. I remember everything about this day. The smell of the olive oil, and the pastors words. He told me to pray, and believe God would heal me. I had a vision during this prayer, and remember seeing a figure-I didn't see a mouth move but heard a voice. Just as I'd always done, I conversed as if I had every right to and it was a casual conversation. The only difference being that this time my entire body felt tingly and warm, . I didn't hear the other people in the room after a while. After asking a few questions, it came to me that I was unsure about all the hellfire preaching I'd been hearing. So I asked what would happen to every one and heard the words over and over, "ALL are saved."
I did receive a healing that day, I was completely well. I was very casual about it as if it was my due-it was the adults who seemed a little nervous and excited about what happened. I told the pastor I had a message for everyone, but could not tell them until the next service. In front of the whole congregation one morning, the pastor called me up. I gave everyone the great news....only it wasn't received like I thought. I was quickly ushered away and given counseling on how I was trying to be a false prophet. Oh boy.
I had a few more experiences that year but I kept them to myself. :)
I felt a calling to the church from that year. I was in a lot of conflict though even then. I thought I would have to be a nun-and wondered how I could become Catholic without anyone knowing. It was the only role I could conceive of from my limited experience. Because I could not possibly see how I could obey this calling, I instead over the years stopped seeking though biblical scripture and church. I did continue to pray a lot, but didn't feel the need to study or learn more. There were family issues too that were a distraction.
So, after many years-and at the age of 35 I started hearing that calling, loud and clear. There was no more excuses, it was time. But after studying and trying to learn I became more and more frustrated. I didn't know then that I should search beyond the translation of ET. A year later I finally had the time to start using the internet as a learning tool. I can't remember where but I came across the words "Universal Reconciliation." I was so excited at the possibility that there could possibly be others who knew this message that I clicked on the first website that showed up, which was the Christian Universalist Association. I read every article there-it lead me to reading Hope Beyond Hell, led me to tentmaker, and then Gary's videos on universal salvation. I instantly knew I'd found the way to finally obey. :HeartThrob:
:cloud9: :thumbsup:
My path is connected to Molly's . . .mine was also dealing with the lake of fire. But mine wasn't about the fact that the lake has edges/banks/boundaries. mine as about the fact that hell was thrown into it . . .which meant that hell was not an eternal place. It contradicted the entire doctrine of hell. They tell you that you're going to hell forever . . .but if you press the issue about the lake of fire, you'll get an eye roll and an admission that hell "is" thrown into the lake which then I guess the assumption is that hell and the lake cooincide with one another.
But the idea that the lake of fire "consumed" the very place where eternal torment was supposedly at opened the door just long enough that my doctrine leaked out before I could even realize what was happening.
in the beginning, I wouldn't let go of "one" thing without first replacing it with something else. like, okay if hell isn't "this" then what is it? Give me something to believe. But since then, if I feel a tug to let go of something, I let go first, then wait to see what happens later. Some things take longer to develop in my understanding than others, but in the process of that development, I'm not worried about current state of understanding because I know life is in my womb and as long as life is living, it will birth in my understanding. So, I let it be until the time of maturity comes to where I can either "see" it, or accept it.
Many people see glimpses of things of God but aren't able to accept them yet. Then you have those that are ready to accept something, they just can't see it. We're the midwives that nudge here, assist there . . .just help others get through the birthing process of God's kingdom in our lives.
And of course, if hell is thrown into it(the lake of fire), it can't be hell. And if the hell that is thrown into it is Sheol, not hell, cause there is no hell and never was.... well that really upsets the apple cart. And if death is thrown in with Sheol(the reservoir of the dead) there will be no more death either and since the last adversary is death then all the adversaries who were in deaths grip previously must have been reconciled so what do you know! Maybe all things are United in Life, just like Eph 1:9-11 & Col 1:16-21 & all them other verses say :o)
Behold I make all things new :o)
Exactly . . .and that was just the beginning of realizing ALL my apples were no longer staying in the cart . . .everything I thought I knew, understood and preached came crumbling down . . .THANK GOD!!!
:offtopic:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 25, 2010, 05:41:52 PM
I was Googling for lyrics of my favorite band. I just accidently found a Christian ET site.
That band would be either Iron Maiden or Helloween, right?
'Cos if I don't remember it all wrong, the exact same thing happened to me years ago.
Iron Maiden. The number of the beast. (funny clip btw)
Up the Irons :thumbsup: