Will the REAL author come forth, please!

[anna274]

Thanks WW... re: I wonder who really wrote the book of Matthew

Your discussion on who actually wrote the book of Matthew/who dictated the book brought back memories of my study (Oct 2012) of John 11...Lazarus sick...his sisters to Jesus "he whom thou lovest..."    and in the process of my studying was directed to a very interesting website
http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com

[rosered]

  Great article ANNA!    Thanks for sharing it 
I do wonder  if only the 4th Gospel   speaks of the raising of Lazurus , so fully !
  I find it also  in Matthrew when they describe the   Power of the Cross of Jesus Christ 
  that day  , they all agree in many details but Matt is the only one  giving the details  of the
dead saints  being  raised out of their graves !   
  they only wrote what they saw and heard and understood   perhaps




Mat 27:51   And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent; 
Mat 27:52   And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, 


Mat 27:53   And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many. 


Mat 27:54   Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.

  Like Paul  on the road to Damascus  many were with him ,   they heard a voice but saw no man 

  And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man. 


Act 9:8   And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus. 
I am amazed with all that  is given  by the increase of God

  Blessings sister !

[WhiteWings]

Anna, I think it would have been better you didn't start a new thread. Today all is clear to us. But in a year all looks very disconnected I think. :friendstu:

Matthew--->James
Mark--->Peter
Luke--->Paul

1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:

Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God,
Rom 16:22 I, Tertius, the writer of the epistle, am greeting you in the Lord."







Another thing is that Acts is sometimes called the 5th Gospel book. Just part 2 of Luke.
Just like the OT has the pentaech. The 5 books of Moses.
Exodus 19:9,16 explains the laws are inscribed on:
- The hand --> 5 fingers --> Works???
- The head --> 5 senses

Number five is quite prominent in the NT layout.

[micah7:9]

Several weeks ago I mentioned Moses writing Genesis and someone posted that it may not have been Moses, also was reading that Lamentations was not written by Jeremiah. Other than John writing The Revelation, how do know who it was that actually put pen to paper and wrote any of the books with their name attached? :Chinscratch:

PS.... Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went

These are said to be spurious. Don't know just sayin.

[rosered]

PS.... Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went

These are said to be spurious. Don't know just sayin.

   I   hope you have some proof  of that Micah ? I sure hate to hear that its one of the most wonderful   proofs of Gods power  to raise the dead  to life and it seems  so sad that anyone would  say that
  who claims its spurious ?
Thanks !

[micah7:9]

http://godstoolsforus.com/spurious-passages/

Here is just Matt.
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 5:22-- without a cause
Matthew 6:13-- For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:25-- or what ye shall drink
Matthew 16:2-- When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matthew 16:3-- This entire verse.
Matthew 17:21-- and fasting
Matthew 18:12-- into the mountains
Matthew 20:7-- and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matthew 22:13-- and take him away
Matthew 23:35-- son of Barachias
Matthew 24:10-- and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:31-- sound of a
Matthew 24:41-- women shall be
Matthew 25:6 -- cometh
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit * (added to list)

[rosered]

http://godstoolsforus.com/spurious-passages/

Here is just Matt.
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 5:22-- without a cause
Matthew 6:13-- For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:25-- or what ye shall drink
Matthew 16:2-- When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matthew 16:3-- This entire verse.
Matthew 17:21-- and fasting
Matthew 18:12-- into the mountains
Matthew 20:7-- and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matthew 22:13-- and take him away
Matthew 23:35-- son of Barachias
Matthew 24:10-- and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:31-- sound of a
Matthew 24:41-- women shall be
Matthew 25:6 -- cometh
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit * (added to list)

  But how can this be Micah ? 
  This man  holds no  authority   or explanation   as I could tell  :sigh:

God bless

[micah7:9]

http://godstoolsforus.com/spurious-passages/

Here is just Matt.
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 5:22-- without a cause
Matthew 6:13-- For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:25-- or what ye shall drink
Matthew 16:2-- When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matthew 16:3-- This entire verse.
Matthew 17:21-- and fasting
Matthew 18:12-- into the mountains
Matthew 20:7-- and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matthew 22:13-- and take him away
Matthew 23:35-- son of Barachias
Matthew 24:10-- and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:31-- sound of a
Matthew 24:41-- women shall be
Matthew 25:6 -- cometh
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit * (added to list)

  But how can this be Micah ? 
  This man  holds no  authority   or explanation   as I could tell  :sigh:

God bless

Did you go to the site or look up Professor C. Tischendorf? How do you know of his authority? Could it be that just maybe removing some words, lines, paragraphs from what we have come to "build on" may tear down some of what may not be?
Look up Romans 11:6-- But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
In KJV, RV, ASV check it out.

[rosered]

   Hi Micah I did  go to checking

  and found The text of Matthew 27:52 has often been raised in question. It reads: "And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose."

It is known that the first five words of this quotation are spurious not found in the oldest manuscripts). Some Bible scholars question the remainder of the text also, as a possible addition to even some of the earlier manuscripts

Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened


I still find the rest   ''many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
  in there

  Maybe  I should check into these things better    :gimmefive:


and this Early Church Fathers on Mt 27


But  I find more  truth in this what  the Lord said  in Ezekiel   when  Jesus was finnishing the work the Father sent Him to do  on that Cross


Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves,

O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,

And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:

then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD. 



Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,

[micah7:9]

I, in no way was trying to deny " "many bodies of the saints which slept arose." If I gave that impression I apologize. :Peace2:

[Lazarus Short]

The theory sounds good on the surface, but the total stream of manuscripts may well indicate that the copies so loved by folks like Professor Tischendorf are neither the oldest nor the best.  Keep in mind that in the academic world, that coveted PhD was granted only to those who could discover or formulate something new.  Poking around in dusty, obscure repositories became the method, and if I recall what I read years ago correctly, Tischendorf found his "grail" in a rubbish heap at a monastery in Sinai.  That manuscript may just have been there for a good reason.  In statistical terms, it would be tagged as an outlier [outliar?], and rejected from being used as data.  The many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.

[WhiteWings]

LS, while I don't disagree per se with your statement I want to address this part with an oversimplified example.

The many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.

An Apostle wrote Book-Original without any error. Just before he took it with him on a long travel it was copied. 100 copying errors were introduced in Book-Copy. Book-Original was for some reason never copied and many, many years later Tischendorf finds Book-Original in a monastery. A statistical outlier because the 9999 copies of Book-Copy disagree in 100 places with Book-Original.

Jesus was an outlier too. 1000 scribes disagreed with Him. Does that make His teachings wrong?  :gimmefive:

[sheila]

fallible man is prone to 'fill in the blanks."..with his own private interpretation. and we know that no scripture

is written of any man's private interpretation..but as born along of the Holy spirit.  I think it was for

this reason that Jesus said...'I only speak and do exactly as the Father tell's me "   I beleive that because of this

  only Jesus can reveal the Father.  and we see in the scriptures that the scribes and pharisees are at odd's with

  Jesus over just what Father meant and said in His word.  the law and the prophets.

     I know...that when I was lost and wandering around in 'His word[scriptures]...I went to the red letter

words of Jesus..and just began following them....and before I knew it...I had it revealed to me about the

salvation of all men...and the word of God no longer became as a book that I couldn't understand[see

ethipian and Phillip].   this is my son..hear ye him!

[Lazarus Short]

LS, while I don't disagree per se with your statement I want to address this part with an oversimplified example.

The many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.

An Apostle wrote Book-Original without any error. Just before he took it with him on a long travel it was copied. 100 copying errors were introduced in Book-Copy. Book-Original was for some reason never copied and many, many years later Tischendorf finds Book-Original in a monastery. A statistical outlier because the 9999 copies of Book-Copy disagree in 100 places with Book-Original.

Jesus was an outlier too. 1000 scribes disagreed with Him. Does that make His teachings wrong?  :gimmefive:

Yes, I do see where you are going, but there is more that I did not mention.  How do we decide what the original autograph was, letter by letter?  Impossible?  No, not at all - given the fact that the Hebrew and Greek used letters for numbers, we have, running concurrently with the phonetic text, a mathematical sub-text.  This sub-text is mathematically coherent, such that if one letter/number is wrong or missing, the whole mathematical structure is subverted.  Jot or tittle, anyone?  If you grasp that, you can understand that the original text, as penned under the inspiration of God, can be restored with 100% accuracy.

Ivan Panin led the way here.  Some consider him entirely contradicted and dismissed, and some consider his findings to be a cornerstone of their faith (no Panin himself).  I am of the latter camp.

[anna274]

Thanks WW... re: I wonder who really wrote the book of Matthew

Your discussion on who actually wrote the book of Matthew/who dictated the book brought back memories of my study (Oct 2012) of John 11...Lazarus sick...his sisters to Jesus "he whom thou lovest..."    and in the process of my studying was directed to a very interesting website
http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com

Just wanted to add a bit of clarification regarding my intent in bringing this website to the forum...

re:  "he whom Thou lovest..."  "very interesting website"

Website believes that 1.  Lazarus is the disciple who Jesus loves
                                2.  Lazarus, not John, is the author of the Gospel of John

1.  I agree... couldn't find any Scriptures to refute

2.  I'm not entirely convinced of the authorship...

The articles are short; but there are quite a few articles and I enjoyed reading all of them...for me, the articles presented a different perspective on the Bethany household--I "see" some new things about Lazarus, Martha, Mary and Jesus' love for each one...

I appreciate the website's many, many Scripture references...

today in reading Sheila's reply re: ...only Jesus can reveal the Father... this is my Son, hear Him...

I realized that after all the scrutiny, dissecting, discussing... the REAL author is Jesus...   Looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2

[Tapioca]

Regarding Panin, I like what is says here.
"Bible numerics appears to be God's watermark of authenticity."
This is a nice little clip to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRID3uS3W1o

[WhiteWings]

LS, while I don't disagree per se with your statement I want to address this part with an oversimplified example.

The many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.

An Apostle wrote Book-Original without any error. Just before he took it with him on a long travel it was copied. 100 copying errors were introduced in Book-Copy. Book-Original was for some reason never copied and many, many years later Tischendorf finds Book-Original in a monastery. A statistical outlier because the 9999 copies of Book-Copy disagree in 100 places with Book-Original.

Jesus was an outlier too. 1000 scribes disagreed with Him. Does that make His teachings wrong?  :gimmefive:

Yes, I do see where you are going, but there is more that I did not mention.  How do we decide what the original autograph was, letter by letter?  Impossible?  No, not at all - given the fact that the Hebrew and Greek used letters for numbers, we have, running concurrently with the phonetic text, a mathematical sub-text.  This sub-text is mathematically coherent, such that if one letter/number is wrong or missing, the whole mathematical structure is subverted.  Jot or tittle, anyone?  If you grasp that, you can understand that the original text, as penned under the inspiration of God, can be restored with 100% accuracy.

Ivan Panin led the way here.  Some consider him entirely contradicted and dismissed, and some consider his findings to be a cornerstone of their faith (no Panin himself).  I am of the latter camp.

Hi LS,

I'll begin with stating that I'm neither defending of rejecting Tischendorf. Neither have I skills that are even remotely close to being sufficient finding the best manuscript.

I have to admit I never heard about that mathematical sub-text and would like to read more about it. If you have an link to an article plz post it.

/EDIT reminds me of this:
http://www.phibible.org/index.html
http://www.phibible.org/Miscellaneous/GoldenRatioInNature.html

[Lazarus Short]

Tapioca and WhiteWings:

There are subjects, things of God, which we can just not wrap our limited, three-dimensional minds around.  This is one, and if you look into it long enough, your eyes will glaze over, and your head will spin.  It's rather like looking into infinite mirrors.

[WhiteWings]

http://www.ubp1.org/   ===> Third book.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=numericmaterials

[rosered]

Thanks WW... re: I wonder who really wrote the book of Matthew

Your discussion on who actually wrote the book of Matthew/who dictated the book brought back memories of my study (Oct 2012) of John 11...Lazarus sick...his sisters to Jesus "he whom thou lovest..."    and in the process of my studying was directed to a very interesting website
http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com

Just wanted to add a bit of clarification regarding my intent in bringing this website to the forum...

re:  "he whom Thou lovest..."  "very interesting website"

Website believes that 1.  Lazarus is the disciple who Jesus loves
                                2.  Lazarus, not John, is the author of the Gospel of John

1.  I agree... couldn't find any Scriptures to refute

2.  I'm not entirely convinced of the authorship...

The articles are short; but there are quite a few articles and I enjoyed reading all of them...for me, the articles presented a different perspective on the Bethany household--I "see" some new things about Lazarus, Martha, Mary and Jesus' love for each one...

I appreciate the website's many, many Scripture references...

today in reading Sheila's reply re: ...only Jesus can reveal the Father... this is my Son, hear Him...

I realized that after all the scrutiny, dissecting, discussing... the REAL author is Jesus...   Looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2

:HeartThrob:    Beautiful Anna ! 

I find it  awesome that He Comes  in the Volumn of a book written of Him


He come in the cloud of witnesses [ the book of life] !!   
He warns those whom search them  , that they have eternal life   in those letters [the letter of the law kills ] , but its His testifying of Him that makes  it true !! the SPIRIT OF LIFE in them in the testimonies     they have in their   hearts   that come  out of  their mouths !


[Luk 6:45 A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil: for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. ]


Psa 40:7 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required

Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips,

O LORD, thou knowest.I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation: I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me. 
 
Hbr 10:7 Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.

[anna274]

Rosered:  thank you so much... you are such an encourager...you make special note of each member's contribution to the building up of the body...

WW: thanks for the invaluable information you bring to this forum...especially the idioms

=======================================

I've been studying, meditating, praying

Acts 20:24 (AMP)
But none of these things move me; neither do I esteem my life dear to myself, if only I may finish my course with joy and THE MINISTRY WHICH ... WAS ENTRUSTED TO ME BY THE LORD JESUS, faithfully to attest to the good news of God's grace (His unmerited favor, spiritual blessing and mercy)


I bolded the ministry entrusted by the Lord Jesus because I see encourager and distributor of invaluable information as "ministries"...


1 Peter 4:7-11
v 7 But the end  and culmination of all things has now come near; keep sound minded and self-restrained and alert therefore for the practice of prayer.

v 8  Above all things have intense and unfailing love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins [forgives and disregards the offenses of others.]

v 9   Practice hospitality to one another (those of the household of faith).  [Be hospitable, be a lover of strangers, with brotherly affection for the UNKNOWN GUESTS, the foreigners, the poor, and all others who come your way who are of Christ's body.]  And [in each instance]do it ungrudgingly --graciously and cordially, without complaining but as REPRESENTING HIM.

v 10  As each of you has received a gift (a particular spiritual talent, a gracious divine endowment) employ it for one another as befits good trustees of God's many-sided grace [faithful stewards of the extremely diverse powers and gifts granted to Christians by unmerited favor]

v 11   Whoever speaks, [let him do it as one who utters]oracles of God; whoever renders service, [let him do it] as with the strength which God furnishes abundantly, so that IN ALL THINGS GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED THROUGH JESUS CHRIST (THE MESSIAH).  To Him be the glory and dominion forever and ever (through endless ages.)  Amen (so be it)

 

[Lazarus Short]

http://www.ubp1.org/   ===> Third book.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=numericmaterials

Thank you, WhiteWings!!  I have wanted a copy of Panin's Numeric New Testament for many years, and here it is, falling right into my lap.  :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

[WhiteWings]

LS,

I'm still looking for an explanation what the numerals actually are. It's clear to me, it's some sort of checksum; but besides that I have no clue how it works.
If you have any info.....


For those preferring a hardcopy: Click here

[Lazarus Short]

WhiteWings, this might be a good start:  http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html

Google or Bing "Ivan Panin" and you will get a wealth of links to sites both pro and con.

Chuck Missler explains it all at least as well as I can.

[micah7:9]

Don't mathematicians just think numbers? I am not a follower of the "numbers bible interpretation" but it seems to reason that and it is said that there is math in everything and math can make everything make sense.
So if a mathematician reads a book, say the Bible, and reads it as numbers rather than words, the word Bible becomes worthless, because words don't add up? Just asking. :Chinscratch:

I do believe that numbers are important in the Bible and that the Hebrew letter numbers have some good and powerful information, but for me to start my study of the Bible in a literature class led by the Holy Spirit 40 yrs ago and now be transferred to a math class which has a teacher I am not familiar with.
Well now I am in a corner with a dunce cone on my head. I am sure there is logic in the numbers, but is that logic a mathematicians logic? Perhaps the Holy Spirit has tenure as a professor of math and literature?  I'm just asking. :dontknow:
I believe that math can prove just about anything true, but words do not have that absolute[at least not in an arena of numbers]. And I will say this, if the Word of the Lord that has many versions and translations of words, is now a book of numbers, I must drop out. :sigh: I am serious as 2+2