Thanks WW... re: I wonder who really wrote the book of Matthew
Your discussion on who actually wrote the book of Matthew/who dictated the book brought back memories of my study (Oct 2012) of John 11...Lazarus sick...his sisters to Jesus "he whom thou lovest..." and in the process of my studying was directed to a very interesting website
http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com
Great article ANNA! Thanks for sharing it
I do wonder if only the 4th Gospel speaks of the raising of Lazurus , so fully !
I find it also in Matthrew when they describe the Power of the Cross of Jesus Christ
that day , they all agree in many details but Matt is the only one giving the details of the
dead saints being raised out of their graves !
they only wrote what they saw and heard and understood perhaps
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
Mat 27:53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
Mat 27:54 Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying, Truly this was the Son of God.
Like Paul on the road to Damascus many were with him , they heard a voice but saw no man
And the men which journeyed with him stood speechless, hearing a voice, but seeing no man.
Act 9:8 And Saul arose from the earth; and when his eyes were opened, he saw no man: but they led him by the hand, and brought him into Damascus.
I am amazed with all that is given by the increase of God
Blessings sister !
Anna, I think it would have been better you didn't start a new thread. Today all is clear to us. But in a year all looks very disconnected I think. :friendstu:
Matthew--->James
Mark--->Peter
Luke--->Paul
1 The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave to him, to show to his servants things which must shortly come to pass; and he sent and signified it by his angel to his servant John:
Rom 1:1 Paul, a servant of Jesus Christ, called to be an apostle, separated to the gospel of God,
Rom 16:22 I, Tertius, the writer of the epistle, am greeting you in the Lord."
Another thing is that Acts is sometimes called the 5th Gospel book. Just part 2 of Luke.
Just like the OT has the pentaech. The 5 books of Moses.
Exodus 19:9,16 explains the laws are inscribed on:
- The hand --> 5 fingers --> Works???
- The head --> 5 senses
Number five is quite prominent in the NT layout.
Several weeks ago I mentioned Moses writing Genesis and someone posted that it may not have been Moses, also was reading that Lamentations was not written by Jeremiah. Other than John writing The Revelation, how do know who it was that actually put pen to paper and wrote any of the books with their name attached? :Chinscratch:
PS.... Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
These are said to be spurious. Don't know just sayin.
QuotePS.... Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
These are said to be spurious. Don't know just sayin.
I hope you have some proof of that Micah ? I sure hate to hear that its one of the most wonderful proofs of Gods power to raise the dead to life and it seems so sad that anyone would say that
who claims its spurious ?
Thanks !
http://godstoolsforus.com/spurious-passages/
Here is just Matt.
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 5:22-- without a cause
Matthew 6:13-- For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:25-- or what ye shall drink
Matthew 16:2-- When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matthew 16:3-- This entire verse.
Matthew 17:21-- and fasting
Matthew 18:12-- into the mountains
Matthew 20:7-- and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matthew 22:13-- and take him away
Matthew 23:35-- son of Barachias
Matthew 24:10-- and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:31-- sound of a
Matthew 24:41-- women shall be
Matthew 25:6 -- cometh
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit * (added to list)
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 04, 2014, 01:58:02 AM
http://godstoolsforus.com/spurious-passages/
Here is just Matt.
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 5:22-- without a cause
Matthew 6:13-- For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:25-- or what ye shall drink
Matthew 16:2-- When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matthew 16:3-- This entire verse.
Matthew 17:21-- and fasting
Matthew 18:12-- into the mountains
Matthew 20:7-- and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matthew 22:13-- and take him away
Matthew 23:35-- son of Barachias
Matthew 24:10-- and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:31-- sound of a
Matthew 24:41-- women shall be
Matthew 25:6 -- cometh
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit * (added to list)
But how can this be Micah ?
This man holds no authority or explanation as I could tell :sigh:
God bless
Quote from: rosered on March 04, 2014, 02:13:37 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 04, 2014, 01:58:02 AM
http://godstoolsforus.com/spurious-passages/
Here is just Matt.
The following list of interpolations is taken from notes by Professor C. Tischendorf, based on the Sinaitic Manuscript which he discovered at the foot of Mount Sinai. There are many others, but those contained in this list seem to be the only ones which materially change the meaning of the texts in which they appear. Although some have contested the exclusion of these, individuals have deemed it wise to delete these from their Bible:
Matthew 5:22-- without a cause
Matthew 6:13-- For thine is the Kingdom, and the power, and the glory, for ever. Amen.
Matthew 6:25-- or what ye shall drink
Matthew 16:2-- When it is evening, ye say, it will be fair weather: for the sky is red.
Matthew 16:3-- This entire verse.
Matthew 17:21-- and fasting
Matthew 18:12-- into the mountains
Matthew 20:7-- and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive
Matthew 22:13-- and take him away
Matthew 23:35-- son of Barachias
Matthew 24:10-- and shall hate one another
Matthew 24:31-- sound of a
Matthew 24:41-- women shall be
Matthew 25:6 -- cometh
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
Matthew 27:53-- and went
Matthew 28:19-- the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit * (added to list)
But how can this be Micah ?
This man holds no authority or explanation as I could tell :sigh:
God bless
Did you go to the site or look up Professor C. Tischendorf? How do you know of his authority? Could it be that just maybe removing some words, lines, paragraphs from what we have come to "build on" may tear down some of what may not be?
Look up Romans 11:6-- But if it be of works, then is it no more grace: otherwise work is no more work
In KJV, RV, ASV check it out.
Hi Micah I did go to checking
and found The text of Matthew 27:52 has often been raised in question. It reads: "And the graves were opened, and many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
It is known that the first five words of this quotation are spurious not found in the oldest manuscripts). Some Bible scholars question the remainder of the text also, as a possible addition to even some of the earlier manuscripts
Matthew 27:52-- and the graves were opened
I still find the rest ''many bodies of the saints which slept arose."
in there
Maybe I should check into these things better :gimmefive:
and this Early Church Fathers on Mt 27 (http://early%20church%20fathers%20on%20mt%2027)
But I find more truth in this what the Lord said in Ezekiel when Jesus was finnishing the work the Father sent Him to do on that Cross
Eze 37:13 And ye shall know that I am the LORD, when I have opened your graves,
O my people, and brought you up out of your graves,
And shall put my spirit in you, and ye shall live, and I shall place you in your own land:
then shall ye know that I the LORD have spoken it, and performed it, saith the LORD.
Mat 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
I, in no way was trying to deny " "many bodies of the saints which slept arose." If I gave that impression I apologize. :Peace2:
The theory sounds good on the surface, but the total stream of manuscripts may well indicate that the copies so loved by folks like Professor Tischendorf are neither the oldest nor the best. Keep in mind that in the academic world, that coveted PhD was granted only to those who could discover or formulate something new. Poking around in dusty, obscure repositories became the method, and if I recall what I read years ago correctly, Tischendorf found his "grail" in a rubbish heap at a monastery in Sinai. That manuscript may just have been there for a good reason. In statistical terms, it would be tagged as an outlier [outliar?], and rejected from being used as data. The many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.
LS, while I don't disagree per se with your statement I want to address this part with an oversimplified example.
QuoteThe many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.
An Apostle wrote Book-Original without any error. Just before he took it with him on a long travel it was copied. 100 copying errors were introduced in Book-Copy. Book-Original was for some reason never copied and many, many years later Tischendorf finds Book-Original in a monastery. A statistical outlier because the 9999 copies of Book-Copy disagree in 100 places with Book-Original.
Jesus was an outlier too. 1000 scribes disagreed with Him. Does that make His teachings wrong? :gimmefive:
fallible man is prone to 'fill in the blanks."..with his own private interpretation. and we know that no scripture
is written of any man's private interpretation..but as born along of the Holy spirit. I think it was for
this reason that Jesus said...'I only speak and do exactly as the Father tell's me " I beleive that because of this
only Jesus can reveal the Father. and we see in the scriptures that the scribes and pharisees are at odd's with
Jesus over just what Father meant and said in His word. the law and the prophets.
I know...that when I was lost and wandering around in 'His word[scriptures]...I went to the red letter
words of Jesus..and just began following them....and before I knew it...I had it revealed to me about the
salvation of all men...and the word of God no longer became as a book that I couldn't understand[see
ethipian and Phillip]. this is my son..hear ye him!
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 04, 2014, 08:51:43 AM
LS, while I don't disagree per se with your statement I want to address this part with an oversimplified example.
QuoteThe many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.
An Apostle wrote Book-Original without any error. Just before he took it with him on a long travel it was copied. 100 copying errors were introduced in Book-Copy. Book-Original was for some reason never copied and many, many years later Tischendorf finds Book-Original in a monastery. A statistical outlier because the 9999 copies of Book-Copy disagree in 100 places with Book-Original.
Jesus was an outlier too. 1000 scribes disagreed with Him. Does that make His teachings wrong? :gimmefive:
Yes, I do see where you are going,
but there is more that I did not mention. How do we decide what the original autograph was, letter by letter? Impossible? No, not at all - given the fact that the Hebrew and Greek used letters for numbers, we have, running concurrently with the phonetic text, a mathematical sub-text. This sub-text is mathematically coherent, such that if one letter/number is wrong or missing, the whole mathematical structure is subverted. Jot or tittle, anyone? If you grasp that, you can understand that the original text, as penned under the inspiration of God, can be restored with 100% accuracy.
Ivan Panin led the way here. Some consider him entirely contradicted and dismissed, and some consider his findings to be a cornerstone of their faith (no Panin himself). I am of the latter camp.
Quote from: anna274 on March 03, 2014, 08:59:05 PM
Thanks WW... re: I wonder who really wrote the book of Matthew
Your discussion on who actually wrote the book of Matthew/who dictated the book brought back memories of my study (Oct 2012) of John 11...Lazarus sick...his sisters to Jesus "he whom thou lovest..." and in the process of my studying was directed to a very interesting website
http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com
Just wanted to add a bit of clarification regarding my intent in bringing this website to the forum...
re: "he whom Thou lovest..." "very interesting website"
Website believes that 1. Lazarus is the disciple who Jesus loves
2. Lazarus, not John, is the author of the Gospel of John
1. I agree... couldn't find any Scriptures to refute
2. I'm not entirely convinced of the authorship...
The articles are short; but there are quite a few articles and I enjoyed reading all of them...for me, the articles presented a different perspective on the Bethany household--I "see" some new things about Lazarus, Martha, Mary and Jesus' love for each one...
I appreciate the website's many, many Scripture references...
today in reading Sheila's reply re: ...only Jesus can reveal the Father... this is my Son, hear Him...
I realized that after all the scrutiny, dissecting, discussing... the REAL author is Jesus... Looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2
Regarding Panin, I like what is says here.
"Bible numerics appears to be God's watermark of authenticity."
This is a nice little clip to watch.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VRID3uS3W1o
Quote from: Lazarus Short on March 04, 2014, 05:29:40 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 04, 2014, 08:51:43 AM
LS, while I don't disagree per se with your statement I want to address this part with an oversimplified example.
QuoteThe many, many, many Biblical manuscripts which agree with each other (within acceptable limits) should NOT be viewed through the filter of ONE spurious manuscript.
An Apostle wrote Book-Original without any error. Just before he took it with him on a long travel it was copied. 100 copying errors were introduced in Book-Copy. Book-Original was for some reason never copied and many, many years later Tischendorf finds Book-Original in a monastery. A statistical outlier because the 9999 copies of Book-Copy disagree in 100 places with Book-Original.
Jesus was an outlier too. 1000 scribes disagreed with Him. Does that make His teachings wrong? :gimmefive:
Yes, I do see where you are going, but there is more that I did not mention. How do we decide what the original autograph was, letter by letter? Impossible? No, not at all - given the fact that the Hebrew and Greek used letters for numbers, we have, running concurrently with the phonetic text, a mathematical sub-text. This sub-text is mathematically coherent, such that if one letter/number is wrong or missing, the whole mathematical structure is subverted. Jot or tittle, anyone? If you grasp that, you can understand that the original text, as penned under the inspiration of God, can be restored with 100% accuracy.
Ivan Panin led the way here. Some consider him entirely contradicted and dismissed, and some consider his findings to be a cornerstone of their faith (no Panin himself). I am of the latter camp.
Hi LS,
I'll begin with stating that I'm neither defending of rejecting Tischendorf. Neither have I skills that are even remotely close to being sufficient finding the best manuscript.
I have to admit I never heard about that mathematical sub-text and would like to read more about it. If you have an link to an article plz post it.
/EDIT reminds me of this:
http://www.phibible.org/index.html
http://www.phibible.org/Miscellaneous/GoldenRatioInNature.html
Tapioca and WhiteWings:
There are subjects, things of God, which we can just not wrap our limited, three-dimensional minds around. This is one, and if you look into it long enough, your eyes will glaze over, and your head will spin. It's rather like looking into infinite mirrors.
http://www.ubp1.org/ ===> Third book.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=numericmaterials
Quote from: anna274 on March 04, 2014, 05:38:27 PM
Quote from: anna274 on March 03, 2014, 08:59:05 PM
Thanks WW... re: I wonder who really wrote the book of Matthew
Your discussion on who actually wrote the book of Matthew/who dictated the book brought back memories of my study (Oct 2012) of John 11...Lazarus sick...his sisters to Jesus "he whom thou lovest..." and in the process of my studying was directed to a very interesting website
http://www.lazaruscomeforth.com
Just wanted to add a bit of clarification regarding my intent in bringing this website to the forum...
re: "he whom Thou lovest..." "very interesting website"
Website believes that 1. Lazarus is the disciple who Jesus loves
2. Lazarus, not John, is the author of the Gospel of John
1. I agree... couldn't find any Scriptures to refute
2. I'm not entirely convinced of the authorship...
The articles are short; but there are quite a few articles and I enjoyed reading all of them...for me, the articles presented a different perspective on the Bethany household--I "see" some new things about Lazarus, Martha, Mary and Jesus' love for each one...
I appreciate the website's many, many Scripture references...
today in reading Sheila's reply re: ...only Jesus can reveal the Father... this is my Son, hear Him...
I realized that after all the scrutiny, dissecting, discussing... the REAL author is Jesus... Looking unto Jesus who is the author and finisher of our faith Heb 12:2
:HeartThrob: Beautiful Anna !
I find it awesome that
He Comes in the Volumn of a book written of Him He come in the cloud of witnesses [ the book of life] !!
He warns those whom search them , that they have eternal life in those letters [the letter of the law kills ] , but its His testifying of Him that makes it true !! the SPIRIT OF LIFE in them in the testimonies they have in their hearts that come out of their mouths !
[Luk 6:45
A good man out of the good treasure of his heart brings forth that which is good; and an evil man out of the evil treasure of his heart brings forth that which is evil:
for of the abundance of the heart his mouth speaks. ]
Psa 40:7 Sacrifice and offering thou didst not desire; mine ears hast thou opened: burnt offering and sin offering hast thou not required
Then said
I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book it is written of me,I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart. I have preached righteousness in the great congregation: lo, I have not refrained my lips,
O LORD, thou knowest.I have not hid thy righteousness within my heart; I have declared thy faithfulness and thy salvation:
I have not concealed thy lovingkindness and thy truth from the great congregation.
Withhold not thou thy tender mercies from me, O LORD: let thy lovingkindness and thy truth continually preserve me.
Hbr 10:7 Then said I,
Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.Above when he said, Sacrifice and offering and burnt offerings and offering for sin thou wouldest not, neither hadst pleasure therein; which are offered by the law;Then said he, Lo, I come to do thy will, O God. He taketh away the first, that he may establish the second. By the which will we are sanctified through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all.
Rosered: thank you so much... you are such an encourager...you make special note of each member's contribution to the building up of the body...
WW: thanks for the invaluable information you bring to this forum...especially the idioms
=======================================
I've been studying, meditating, praying
Acts 20:24 (AMP)
But none of these things move me; neither do I esteem my life dear to myself, if only I may finish my course with joy and THE MINISTRY WHICH ... WAS ENTRUSTED TO ME BY THE LORD JESUS, faithfully to attest to the good news of God's grace (His unmerited favor, spiritual blessing and mercy)
I bolded the ministry entrusted by the Lord Jesus because I see encourager and distributor of invaluable information as "ministries"...
1 Peter 4:7-11
v 7 But the end and culmination of all things has now come near; keep sound minded and self-restrained and alert therefore for the practice of prayer.
v 8 Above all things have intense and unfailing love for one another, for love covers a multitude of sins [forgives and disregards the offenses of others.]
v 9 Practice hospitality to one another (those of the household of faith). [Be hospitable, be a lover of strangers, with brotherly affection for the UNKNOWN GUESTS, the foreigners, the poor, and all others who come your way who are of Christ's body.] And [in each instance]do it ungrudgingly --graciously and cordially, without complaining but as REPRESENTING HIM.
v 10 As each of you has received a gift (a particular spiritual talent, a gracious divine endowment) employ it for one another as befits good trustees of God's many-sided grace [faithful stewards of the extremely diverse powers and gifts granted to Christians by unmerited favor]
v 11 Whoever speaks, [let him do it as one who utters]oracles of God; whoever renders service, [let him do it] as with the strength which God furnishes abundantly, so that IN ALL THINGS GOD MAY BE GLORIFIED THROUGH JESUS CHRIST (THE MESSIAH). To Him be the glory and dominion forever and ever (through endless ages.) Amen (so be it)
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 05, 2014, 02:43:08 PM
http://www.ubp1.org/ ===> Third book.
http://www.ubm1.org/?page=numericmaterials
Thank you, WhiteWings!! I have wanted a copy of Panin's
Numeric New Testament for many years, and here it is, falling right into my lap. :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:
LS,
I'm still looking for an explanation what the numerals actually are. It's clear to me, it's some sort of checksum; but besides that I have no clue how it works.
If you have any info.....
For those preferring a hardcopy: Click here (http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_sb_noss_1?url=search-alias%3Daps&field-keywords=NUMERIC+ENGLISH+NEW+TESTAMENT&rh=i%3Aaps%2Ck%3ANUMERIC+ENGLISH+NEW+TESTAMENT)
WhiteWings, this might be a good start: http://www.wordworx.co.nz/panin.html
Google or Bing "Ivan Panin" and you will get a wealth of links to sites both pro and con.
Chuck Missler explains it all at least as well as I can.
Don't mathematicians just think numbers? I am not a follower of the "numbers bible interpretation" but it seems to reason that and it is said that there is math in everything and math can make everything make sense.
So if a mathematician reads a book, say the Bible, and reads it as numbers rather than words, the word Bible becomes worthless, because words don't add up? Just asking. :Chinscratch:
I do believe that numbers are important in the Bible and that the Hebrew letter numbers have some good and powerful information, but for me to start my study of the Bible in a literature class led by the Holy Spirit 40 yrs ago and now be transferred to a math class which has a teacher I am not familiar with.
Well now I am in a corner with a dunce cone on my head. I am sure there is logic in the numbers, but is that logic a mathematicians logic? Perhaps the Holy Spirit has tenure as a professor of math and literature? I'm just asking. :dontknow:
I believe that math can prove just about anything true, but words do not have that absolute[at least not in an arena of numbers]. And I will say this, if the Word of the Lord that has many versions and translations of words, is now a book of numbers, I must drop out. :sigh: I am serious as 2+2
1 Cor 2:1-8
v 1 As for myself, brethren, when I came to you, I did not come proclaiming to you the testimony and evidence or mystery and secret of God [concerning what He had done through Christ for the salvation of men] in lofty words of eloquence or human philosophy and wisdom;
v 2 For I resolved to know nothing (to be acquainted with nothing, to make a display of the knowledge of nothing, and to be conscious of nothing) among you except Jesus Christ, the Messiah and Him crucified.
...
v 4 And my language and my message were not set forth in persuasive (enticing and plausible) words of wisdom, but they were in demonstration of the Holy Spirit and power [a proof by the Spirit and power of God, operating on me and stirring the minds of my hearers the most holy emotions and thus persuading them],
v 5 So that your faith might not rest in the wisdom of men (human philosophy), but in the power of God.
Should I have understood you correctly...... :dsunny: :banana: :iagree:and Amen!
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 05, 2014, 11:42:13 PM
...but for me to start my study of the Bible in a literature class led by the Holy Spirit 40 yrs ago and now be transferred to a math class which has a teacher I am not familiar with.
Well now I am in a corner with a dunce cone on my head.
Micah, I have been aware of the "number thing" since the late 1970's, have studied into it for some little depth, and you know what? I feel like I'm still in the corner with a dunce cap myself. We are all like children sitting in on a Master's Class. Don't think for a minute that I'm a math whiz - I FLUNKED the Calculus - twice! We stand before a vast ocean, and have so far, only managed to dip our toes in the water...
Thanks, but I got a D in arithmetic! :HeartThrob:
Micah: as I was reading your reply re: math etc., the Scripture that came to mind was 1 Cor 2:2-8 and so decided to share it... it seems to say Scripturally what your post at least implied...
Lazarus: I confess, I am greatly fascinated by numbers and during my college days greatly delighted in Pythagoras's view on numbers... I don't think he's considered so much a math expert as he is a philosopher... philosophy, etc., can be a snare for me and so I've very deliberately kept away from philosophy, etc.,...
perhaps you could start a thread wherein those of you who have great interest in numbers as they are related to the Hebrew language could discuss the sites that you and WW have posted.
Quote from: anna274 on March 06, 2014, 03:34:33 AM
Micah: as I was reading your reply re: math etc., the Scripture that came to mind was 1 Cor 2:2-8 and so decided to share it... it seems to say Scripturally what your post at least implied...
Lazarus: I confess, I am greatly fascinated by numbers and during my college days greatly delighted in Pythagoras's view on numbers... I don't think he's considered so much a math expert as he is a philosopher... philosophy, etc., can be a snare for me and so I've very deliberately kept away from philosophy, etc.,...
perhaps you could start a thread wherein those of you who have great interest in numbers as they are related to the Hebrew language could discuss the sites that you and WW have posted.
"....philosopher... philosophy, etc., can be a snare for me and so I've very deliberately kept away from philosophy, etc.,... "
I agree. The only philosopher I ever found had substance[he was 90 years old] I heard and saw on the Dick Cavett show(most will say Dick who?) anyway, this was back when, and I don't remember the philosopher's name. But Dick asked him what he thought about exercise, and the old boy leaned back scratched his chin, perhaps he only rubbed it, and then looked at mister Cavett and answered, "When the thought of exercise crosses my mind, I lay down until the thought passes,"
I have always thought that was great philosophy. And now you know my acceptance of philosophy, I lay down until the thought passes. :dsunny:
My acceptance of philosophy is in my sig. :2c:
What is a "sig". I am probably showing a bit of stupidity, but I don't get it. :sigh:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 05, 2014, 11:42:13 PM
Don't mathematicians just think numbers? I am not a follower of the "numbers bible interpretation" but it seems to reason that and it is said that there is math in everything and math can make everything make sense.
So if a mathematician reads a book, say the Bible, and reads it as numbers rather than words, the word Bible becomes worthless, because words don't add up? Just asking. :Chinscratch:
I'm still looking for the exact method (sorry LS what you posted wasn't enough) but I will give you my view with an example that has nothing to do with what Panin discovered.
If we know that every verse should have a number of letters that can be divided by 7 we can use that as a way to detect errors.
If we know the total number of verses in every book can be divided by 8 we can figure detect manuscripts with added or removed verses. The originals never had verses so this example is utter nonsense but I think it explains something....
So, Michah, the way I understand it Panin discovered something like that. He doesn't convert the Bible to numbers; just click the link and check out his Bible. All regular verses. But due to his discoveries it will differ from most and likely all other Bibles because of Panin's way of detecting corrupted text.
:punish:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 07:13:30 AM
What is a "sig". I am probably showing a bit of stupidity, but I don't get it. :sigh:
Sig is signagture. Yours is:
Mic 7:8 Thou dost not rejoice over me, O mine enemy, When I have fallen, I have risen, When I sit in darkness Jehovah is a light to me.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 05:03:34 AMAnd now you know my acceptance of philosophy, I lay down until the thought passes. :dsunny:
Please give me a few moments to ponder that philosophical wisdom of yours Micah :winkgrin:
No apologies.....Im still giggling :laugh: :laugh: :laughing7: that was funny :rolllol: :rolllol:
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 06, 2014, 07:21:52 AM
I'm still looking for the exact method (sorry LS what you posted wasn't enough) but I will give you my view with an example that has nothing to do with what Panin discovered.
If we know that every verse should have a number of letters that can be divided by 7 we can use that as a way to detect errors.
If we know the total number of verses in every book can be divided by 8 we can figure detect manuscripts with added or removed verses. The originals never had verses so this example is utter nonsense but I think it explains something....
So, Michah, the way I understand it Panin discovered something like that. He doesn't convert the Bible to numbers; just click the link and check out his Bible. All regular verses. But due to his discoveries it will differ from most and likely all other Bibles because of Panin's way of detecting corrupted text.
It goes far deeper than the "check sum" you mentioned earlier, WW. The key is to keep in mind that the Bible is written in numbers, since each letter is both a phoneme and a number, in both Hebrew and Greek. Panin made the conversion, and worked with the numbers. Yes, it is excellent for detecting corrupted text, but it is also just as good for determining what should be canon and what not, what book should follow what book, etc. The most important thing is that it shows us that no mere human mind could have produced the document.
Now if the letters having both phonetic and mathematical meaning is not mind-blowing enough, consider that the Hebrew letters also hold pictorial meaning. That is how I come up with "YHVH" = behold the hand, behold the nail = Jesus Christ.
Well unless a bright light knocks me off of my desk chair, speaks to me, and makes me blind for 3 days, and allows me to spend 3 years in the desert, the "numbers Bible theory" by Panin or anyone is no more than a concoction. And I am not even sure what makes a concoction! I must stay with the Word :dsunny:
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 08:03:11 AM
Well unless a bright light knocks me off of my desk chair, speaks to me, and makes me blind for 3 days, and allows me to spend 3 years in the desert, the "numbers Bible theory" by Panin or anyone is no more than a concoction. And I am not even sure what makes a concoction! I must stay with the Word :dsunny:
No matter, you're still saved. :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny: :dsunny:
Happy Happy Happy!
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 08:03:11 AM
Well unless a bright light knocks me off of my desk chair, speaks to me, and makes me blind for 3 days, and allows me to spend 3 years in the desert, the "numbers Bible theory" by Panin or anyone is no more than a concoction. And I am not even sure what makes a concoction! I must stay with the Word :dsunny:
:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
But why? All Bibles are a collection of manuscripts collected by man, ordered by man, sifted by man.
For me, what Panin did
possibly is even fulfillment of Scripture. Knowledge will increase in the last days. Maybe, but unlikely, he managed to restore the original Scriptures. Yeah, there is a lot of junk passed around but brushing all things away as you seem to do may turn out to be unwise.
Quote from: WhiteWings on March 06, 2014, 08:23:25 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 08:03:11 AM
Well unless a bright light knocks me off of my desk chair, speaks to me, and makes me blind for 3 days, and allows me to spend 3 years in the desert, the "numbers Bible theory" by Panin or anyone is no more than a concoction. And I am not even sure what makes a concoction! I must stay with the Word :dsunny:
:dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow: :dontknow:
But why? All Bibles are a collection of manuscripts collected by man, ordered by man, sifted by man.
For me, what Panin did possibly is even fulfillment of Scripture. Knowledge will increase in the last days. Maybe, but unlikely, he managed to restore the original Scriptures. Yeah, there is a lot of junk passed around but brushing all things away as you seem to do may turn out to be unwise.
"brushing all things away as you seem to do may turn out to be unwise." I may do this as you say, still and this maybe to simple to grasp but I believe in the WORD of the Lord, and when man ciphers the Word into numbers and mathematicians discern, for me this falls into something very different and dark. Besides, if I do not brush all the ideas and imaginations of men aside, I may be coerced into accepting some of their thoughts. I will stay with the Word. But I do thank you WW and Laz for what you offer.
Quote from: micah7:9 on March 06, 2014, 09:40:28 AM
but I believe in the WORD of the Lord, and when man ciphers the Word into numbers and mathematicians discern, for me this falls into something very different and dark.
Michah, I think you completely misunderstand what Panin did. Just open the link I posted and read "his" Bible for just 1 minute.
It has no numbers, strange formulae and other stuff you don't find in 'regular' Bibles. There is absolutely no hint in that Bible that Panin used math. Except in the foreword.
Repeating....
There are many manuscripts, from many sources. And guess what very few, if any are identical. Scholars have methods to figure out which is likely (very close to) the original text and which not. Your favorite Bible is a man-made compilation of parts of often incomplete/partly unreadable manuscripts. All Bibles without exception are compiled that way. Panin also compiled a Bible; but he used a different method. Panin believed God encoded a mathematical system so the original can be restored.
Panin doesn't uncover hidden meanings by applying math to a verse. Obviously Panin's Bible differs from others, if not it's not worth publishing. So in certain verses there may be some words missing because they never were in the originals according to Panin's method. Likewise, he may have removed a few verses that, for example, are in the KJV because of corrupt manuscripts and/or doctrinal reasons.
That's what I understand from Panin's method so far. The
exact method I still don't know/understand.