Tentmaker Forum

I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

When there is nothing to study there is nothing to believe.
No proof of anything.
Just a one-liner.

No Christianity at all.

Quote from: claypot on March 09, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

Hi Clay, I guess that would depend on which "eyes" we view it with

Quote from: pneuma on March 10, 2009, 12:07:40 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 09, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

Hi Clay, I guess that would depend on which "eyes" we view it with

Hey P man,

So good to see my mentor. I suppose with all my lunitic writings you don't want anyone to know that I owe all my beliefs to you!!!!  :laughing7: You have taught me much Brother.

My question is a serious one and one that has perplexed me for a long time. I do enjoy Scripture and I see much in it but the message is generally pretty simple and even redundant. God loves us and will get us from point A to point Z and that is great but how many times and in how many ways do I need to hear it?

I'm not being disrespectful, just curious. Am I missing something. I love a good puzzle and Scripture is a good one. I like mysteries and treasure hunts and those too are provided but I get concerned about all the frustration and confusion and perplexity caused by the emormity of it all.

cp

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 10, 2009, 12:04:39 AM
When there is nothing to study there is nothing to believe.
No proof of anything.
Just a one-liner.

No Christianity at all.

Hey WW,

Oh, I don't know WW. There is so much to believe just looking at a flower or the tinest germ cell or the vastness of the stars. These are proofs in and of themselves, don't you think? I don't know if I need a whole bunch of books written by a bunch of people over a whole bunch of time that need to be studied to the point of madness and confusion to tell me God loves me and is doing something really good for me.

What is Christianity?

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 12:41:44 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 10, 2009, 12:04:39 AM
When there is nothing to study there is nothing to believe.
No proof of anything.
Just a one-liner.

No Christianity at all.

Hey WW,

Oh, I don't know WW. There is so much to believe just looking at a flower or the tinest germ cell or the vastness of the stars. These are proofs in and of themselves, don't you think? I don't know if I need a whole bunch of books written by a bunch of people over a whole bunch of time that need to be studied to the point of madness and confusion to tell me God loves me and is doing something really good for me.

What is Christianity?

cp

CP!!!! I wish you lived next door to me.
I really, really wish that. I'm not a social person and my husband and I kind of tend to stick to ourselves.
but I would love to have you as a neighbor.

I think we have the same brain.

Dear God..
Thank you for making CP.
CP rules.
He is my friend.
love,
sparrow

Well, even if you're not my neighbor.. I'm betting that if we all each get to have our own planet, that your planet will definitely be in the same galaxy as mine.  :Sparkletooth:

:grin: :happy3: :icon_flower:

Quote from: sparrow on March 10, 2009, 12:58:25 AM
CP!!!! I wish you lived next door to me.
I really, really wish that. I'm not a social person and my husband and I kind of tend to stick to ourselves.
but I would love to have you as a neighbor.

I think we have the same brain.

Dear God..
Thank you for making CP.
CP rules.
He is my friend.
love,
sparrow

Well, even if you're not my neighbor.. I'm betting that if we all each get to have our own planet, that your planet will definitely be in the same galaxy as mine.  :Sparkletooth:

Sparrow, what a nice post...your love comes through  :thumbsup:

Sparrow I'm married. I can't even show your post to my wife!!!!!  :mblush:

I have said similar to you and about you so I hear ya and thank you. It is nice to know when one connects as I know you and I do with so many here at this forum.

And we are 'neighbors' sis!

cp

I don't think Sparrow was asking you for a date, CP  :laughing7:...think 'agape'  :happy3:

Quote from: jabcat on March 10, 2009, 01:35:26 AM
I don't think Sparrow was asking you for a date, CP  :laughing7:...think 'agape'  :happy3:

oh my gosh, That made me laugh out loud!!  :laughing7:

teehee!!

you all made my day.


CP, yes, you're right we ARE neighbors.  :icon_flower:

 :cloud9: Back to the original question........because Adam had an open book before and He still flunked the test...... :grin:

Quote from: claypot on March 09, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

I don't think the Bible causes confusion, I think it's our condition that causes the confusion.  Another question to add to this.  Isn't God the One that veils and reveals, all in His time?  Some allowed to see things now more than others?  Many completely blind?  I hold to the scripture, that God is working all things according to His will...there's a reason He turned all to disobedience...the end will be perfect, just as He planned it and will accomplish it.

A city...whose builder and maker IS GOD.

God's blessing, James.

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 12:41:44 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on March 10, 2009, 12:04:39 AM
When there is nothing to study there is nothing to believe.
No proof of anything.
Just a one-liner.

No Christianity at all.

Hey WW,

Oh, I don't know WW. There is so much to believe just looking at a flower or the tinest germ cell or the vastness of the stars. These are proofs in and of themselves, don't you think?

Yes.

QuoteI don't know if I need a whole bunch of books written by a bunch of people over a whole bunch of time that need to be studied to the point of madness and confusion to tell me God loves me and is doing something really good for me.

Would you know that (love) without the books?
Besides of that God has some plan. He didn't create us in heaven so He need the long version of the Bible in that plan.
There can't be judgement/teaching/grace when there are no rules.

QuoteWhat is Christianity?

Several answers:
a] A religion with manmade components.
b] According to some; something wrong because we are not supposed to worship the messenger but the creator. Perhaps Yawehians would be a better name...

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 01:24:58 AM
Sparrow I'm married. I can't even show your post to my wife!!!!!  :mblush:

I have said similar to you and about you so I hear ya and thank you. It is nice to know when one connects as I know you and I do with so many here at this forum.

And we are 'neighbors' sis!

cp

Back off CP - sparrow's MINE!!!  :laughing7:... eeerrr... except I'm married too, so... well,  but Solomon had all those, I mean uhm, well that won't work cuz sparrow's married too ... so...
I guess we can all just be friends. Friends in love.  :happy3: :bgdance:

Quote from: claypot on March 09, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:


2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.


Pro 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.


Mar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

Jhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Luk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.


Luk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 10, 2009, 10:36:55 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 01:24:58 AM
Sparrow I'm married. I can't even show your post to my wife!!!!!  :mblush:

I have said similar to you and about you so I hear ya and thank you. It is nice to know when one connects as I know you and I do with so many here at this forum.

And we are 'neighbors' sis!

cp

Back off CP - sparrow's MINE!!!  :laughing7:... eeerrr... except I'm married too, so... well,  but Solomon had all those, I mean uhm, well that won't work cuz sparrow's married too ... so...
I guess we can all just be friends. Friends in love.  :happy3: :bgdance:

ya Notice when women are mentioned..Bro Byron is about from nowhere :laughing7:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Cardinal on March 10, 2009, 06:27:26 AM
:cloud9: Back to the original question........because Adam had an open book before and He still flunked the test...... :grin:

Bingo. So why did God give us so much Scripture. It seems to trap us more than free us.

cp

Quote from: jabcat on March 10, 2009, 06:43:50 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 09, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

I don't think the Bible causes confusion, I think it's our condition that causes the confusion.  Another question to add to this.  Isn't God the One that veils and reveals, all in His time?  Some allowed to see things now more than others?  Many completely blind?  I hold to the scripture, that God is working all things according to His will...there's a reason He turned all to disobedience...the end will be perfect, just as He planned it and will accomplish it.

A city...whose builder and maker IS GOD.

God's blessing, James.

Hey James. Our condition is/was known to God and He still gave us the Bible. He must have known how it would interact with our condition.

I do believe God hides much more than He reveals and I do believe He is working all out according to His will.

Scripture just seems like a test of some sort. I want to be very careful here but there seems to be more to the Bible as a whole unit than meets the eye. Can't see the forest because of the trees, comes to mind......

cp

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 01:59:52 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 09, 2009, 11:58:59 PM
I think God could have written the Bible in about 2 sentences..........Love the Lord your God with all your heart....... and Love your neighbor.

Question to all........Why do we have all the rest of the Bible? Does it really build faith or confusion? Does it make for peace among people or contention?

cp

2Ti 3:16 All scripture [is] given by inspiration of God, and [is] profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness:

I hear ya but it just seems that after all these years we are still debating and never coming to a cohesive unit. Makes me wonder.

Quote2Ti 3:17 That the man of God may be perfect, throughly furnished unto all good works.

I can see needing a manual, I'm just questioning the wisdom of its length and broadness.

QuotePro 25:2 [It is] the glory of God to conceal a thing: but the honour of kings [is] to search out a matter.

Got to give it to God. As to playing hide and seek, He's a Master at the hiding part!

QuoteMar 7:13 Making the word of God of none effect through your tradition, which ye have delivered: and many such like things do ye.

There are just so many ways to look at what Scripture is saying that it's hard not to make up so many traditions. Can you really blame people who see Catholoism or Lutheranism or whatever in the Bible?

QuoteJhn 5:39 Search the scriptures; for in them ye think ye have eternal life: and they are they which testify of me.

Again, I'm not arguing for no Scriptures, just maybe a lot less.

QuoteLuk 24:44 And he said unto them, These [are] the words which I spake unto you, while I was yet with you, that all things must be fulfilled, which were written in the law of Moses, and [in] the prophets, and [in] the psalms, concerning me.

So much though and so varied that misinterpretation on a grand scale is a certainty.

QuoteLuk 24:45 Then opened he their understanding, that they might understand the scriptures,

Just seems like too much. Even the small flock fight and argue amongst themselves mainly due to Bible interpretation.

Just my thoughts. Still thinking.

cp

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 10, 2009, 10:36:55 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 01:24:58 AM
Sparrow I'm married. I can't even show your post to my wife!!!!!  :mblush:

I have said similar to you and about you so I hear ya and thank you. It is nice to know when one connects as I know you and I do with so many here at this forum.

And we are 'neighbors' sis!

cp

Back off CP - sparrow's MINE!!!  :laughing7:... eeerrr... except I'm married too, so... well,  but Solomon had all those, I mean uhm, well that won't work cuz sparrow's married too ... so...
I guess we can all just be friends. Friends in love.  :happy3: :bgdance:

Byron, that's funny. Twill be fun to meet up 'some day'! And Taf's comment is interesting!!!!  :laughing7:

cp

QuoteI hear ya but it just seems that after all these years we are still debating and never coming to a cohesive unit. Makes me wonder.

who says debating is bad in and of it self? who says we are not comming together IN CHRIST.

doctrine will never unify apart forn Christ for he IS the unity.

how boring it would be if we all one the same spiritual level.



i personally can look back and see much change in me and how i approach those that dont see eye to eye.

even 4 yrs ago comming to UR, was ilke i was still a babe, zelous and gonna set them fundies straight, guess what, IT DONT WORK LIKE THAT.

ask taffy how i was 4 yrs ago  :happy3:

QuoteI can see needing a manual, I'm just questioning the wisdom of its length and broadness.

sheesh man there are at least 18-24 other books mentioned in the bible yet not in the bible.

jasher...book of wars...burach...enoch.... :shout:

not to mention these:

http://www.thelostbooks.com/list.htm


all the books and study mean nothing without rest in Christ. :happyclap:

Ecc 12:12 And further, by these, my son, be admonished: of making many books [there is] no end; and much study [is] a weariness of the flesh.  

QuoteGot to give it to God. As to playing hide and seek, He's a Master at the hiding part!

maybe hes testing us and....... :icon_jokercolor:

QuoteThere are just so many ways to look at what Scripture is saying that it's hard not to make up so many traditions. Can you really blame people who see Catholoism or Lutheranism or whatever in the Bible?

for mine....they ALL are needed in th plan of God...i love them ALL.

QuoteAgain, I'm not arguing for no Scriptures, just maybe a lot less.

i understand, and this is proof of your growth and desire for the inner man rather than ink on paper.

QuoteJust seems like too much. Even the small flock fight and argue amongst themselves mainly due to Bible interpretation.

1Cr 11:19 For there must be also heresies among you, that they which are approved may be made manifest among you.

CLV:

19 For it must be that there are sects also among you, that those also who are qualified may be becoming apparent among you.



AGAIN...i see it as part of the plan and much needed  :myahoo:

QuoteJust my thoughts. Still thinking.

dont hurt yourself......jk   :thewife: :tongue:


God bless
chuckt

ps...this dosent apply to calvinist :blum3: :declare: :pointlaugh: :laugh2:

For me, some would love to have just one word given to them in which to live on . . .but others need more than a word, they need a conversation.  They need a regular conversation.  Within the conversation is the same one word . . .but the nature comes through so much more vividly during the conversation than just the one word.  The one word manifests the Truth of Christ, the conversation manifests the life in Christ.

The one word is a hand shake.  the one sentence is an embrace . . .the whole letter (Genesis to Revelation) is a marriage.

Chuck, your thoughts taken in. Thanks.

Question to all.....

Can you sum up what the Bible says in one or two sentences?

Now don't get technical on me. What I mean is is that I have genuinally studied the Bible for 28 years. I mean really. I'm not bragging, just a fact. After these 28 years as I sit here and type I can pretty much sum up the whole of Scripture in a few words............

There is a God who loves me. This love will save me. I am to love God with all my being (which I don't [can't] do?!), but I try, anyway, I am to love God with all my being and love people.

I even added words to make it look longer but there it is. The rest of the Bible is good reading but the confusion and other negative seem to outweigh the positive. If all is as is taught then I know I am wrong but what if we are seeing the Bible in a wrong way?

Again, my main real question is......

Can you sum up the major message of the Bible in a few sentences or words?

I'm thinking its been done before.....the 4 spiritual laws......John 3.16-17.......

I am seriously asking here so please let me know what you think.

cp

QuoteQuestion to all.....

Can you sum up what the Bible says in one or two sentences?

one word.

LOVE.....it NEVER fails.
:Hi5:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   :drummer:

the most excellent way= pursue LOVE  :bgdance:


blessings.
chuckt

Quote from: Nathan on March 10, 2009, 04:57:43 PM
For me, some would love to have just one word given to them in which to live on . . .but others need more than a word, they need a conversation.  They need a regular conversation.  Within the conversation is the same one word . . .but the nature comes through so much more vividly during the conversation than just the one word.  The one word manifests the Truth of Christ, the conversation manifests the life in Christ.

The one word is a hand shake.  the one sentence is an embrace . . .the whole letter (Genesis to Revelation) is a marriage.

:cloud9: Amen Nathan, and we all know how women (the soul) want to be courted.  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Nathan on March 10, 2009, 04:57:43 PM
For me, some would love to have just one word given to them in which to live on . . .but others need more than a word, they need a conversation.  They need a regular conversation.  Within the conversation is the same one word . . .but the nature comes through so much more vividly during the conversation than just the one word.  The one word manifests the Truth of Christ, the conversation manifests the life in Christ.

The one word is a hand shake.  the one sentence is an embrace . . .the whole letter (Genesis to Revelation) is a marriage.

Nathan, that is very good. It really is. I would say that that is true even as I read the many other works I do read. I hear God talking to me just like you said in many of the works I read. Some works that I read I hear God clearly while other people who read the same works hear nothing.

What I am saying is you made me think of even a bigger reason to suspect the Bible is some ways. You see, when I hear God through a book I am reading that is not the Bible and when someone else reads that same book and hears nothing from God then the book is just put aside by that person and not really thought of again. No real arguments or confusion, maybe a little but not much. Now take the Bible and disagree with someone and it often becomes a matter of whether you are really saved or not or are really walking with God or not and so on. It can start wars!

You say......

The one word is a hand shake.  the one sentence is an embrace . . .the whole letter (Genesis to Revelation) is a marriage.

I would say this applies to all of creation and many volumes of written material. As I read and look around me, oftentimes,  I see and hear God and feel as if I am in a marriage in the making. To tell you the truth I don't always feel that way when reading or discussing the Bible.

cp

Takes every word of the Bible to have Father God be Who He is.
Takes every word of the Bible to have Christ Jesus be Who He is.  Takes every word of the Bible for the Holy Spirit to be Who He is.  Takes every word of the Bible for Christians to become what they'll become.  Mark chapter 4.  Not sure if you're acquainted with Andrew Jukes's book "Restitution of all things," but the first chapter is an absolute masterpiece on the nature of the Word.  Working nights right now and it's past my bedtime... Plus, uh...er....something big happened yesterday that I can't get into specifics of much right now.  So, I'm doubly-doubly tired and heading for bed.  Gotta check a few more threads before passing out.  Hoping to spend much of the weekend figuring out this strange online creature called "Skype."

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 05:10:32 PM

QuoteQuestion to all.....

Can you sum up what the Bible says in one or two sentences?

one word.

LOVE.....it NEVER fails.
:Hi5:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   :drummer:

the most excellent way= pursue LOVE  :bgdance:


blessings.
chuckt

BINGO! Exactly.

Why did God have people write a zillion more words that are suppose to say what you see in one word? I mean, I know why we write and write and write and it is good but if you read my thoughts to Nathan just a few posts before this, I wonder..........

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 05:25:32 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 05:10:32 PM

QuoteQuestion to all.....

Can you sum up what the Bible says in one or two sentences?

one word.

LOVE.....it NEVER fails.
:Hi5:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   :drummer:

the most excellent way= pursue LOVE  :bgdance:


blessings.
chuckt

BINGO! Exactly.

Why did God have people write a zillion more words that are suppose to say what you see in one word? I mean, I know why we write and write and write and it is good but if you read my thoughts to Nathan just a few posts before this, I wonder..........

cp

AH but that love  IS the unveiling of Christ....IS WAS and WILL BE.

do we still not fail at love? ah we do but IT dosent.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

The unveiling of Jesus Christ ((LOVE)) IS....WAS and WILL BE.


be that as it may, surley we get tired and frustrated over thinking we always need to be reading but hey worry not, put it down and rest IN HIM.  :happy3:

just saying i understand your points.

God bless
chuckt

PS. remember how much  we needed the book at first? the milk? we seem as we mature not to need it as much as it  the spirit (( seed )) grows in us.

maybe you feeling growing pains? :gblum:

Quote from: martincisneros on March 10, 2009, 05:24:05 PM
Takes every word of the Bible to have Father God be Who He is.
Takes every word of the Bible to have Christ Jesus be Who He is.  Takes every word of the Bible for the Holy Spirit to be Who He is.  Takes every word of the Bible for Christians to become what they'll become.  Mark chapter 4. 

Yes and I would add it takes every particle of creation for God to be who He is and for Christians to become what they will become.

QuoteNot sure if you're acquainted with Andrew Jukes's book "Restitution of all things," but the first chapter is an absolute masterpiece on the nature of the Word.

That is the book that brought me to my understanding of God as I see Him now. It really is. It's been a while since I read it but I will take your lead and read your suggestion and read that section again. I have read it several times.

QuoteWorking nights right now and it's past my bedtime... Plus, uh...er....something big happened yesterday that I can't get into specifics of much right now.  So, I'm doubly-doubly tired and heading for bed.  Gotta check a few more threads before passing out.  Hoping to spend much of the weekend figuring out this strange online creature called "Skype."

We seem to be in good hands with people like you at the helm, Martin so get some rest and protect us as you can!
cp

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 05:30:28 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 05:25:32 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 05:10:32 PM

QuoteQuestion to all.....

Can you sum up what the Bible says in one or two sentences?

one word.

LOVE.....it NEVER fails.
:Hi5:

Gal 5:14 For all the law is fulfilled in one word, [even] in this; Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.   :drummer:

the most excellent way= pursue LOVE  :bgdance:


blessings.
chuckt

BINGO! Exactly.

Why did God have people write a zillion more words that are suppose to say what you see in one word? I mean, I know why we write and write and write and it is good but if you read my thoughts to Nathan just a few posts before this, I wonder..........

cp

AH but that love  IS the unveiling of Christ....IS WAS and WILL BE.

do we still not fail at love? ah we do but IT dosent.

Psa 40:7 Then said I, Lo, I come: in the volume of the book [it is] written of me,

The unveiling of Jesus Christ ((LOVE)) IS....WAS and WILL BE.


be that as it may, surley we get tired and frustrated over thinking we always need to be reading but hey worry not, put it down and rest IN HIM.  :happy3:

I am actually considering taking it up again in a whole new way. I am considering reading it not as a separate inspired work but as a continuation of all God inspired works.

Quotejust saying i understand your points.

Means much to me Brother!

QuoteGod bless
chuckt

PS. remember how much  we needed the book at first? the milk? we seem as we mature not to need it as much as it  the spirit (( seed )) grows in us.

maybe you feeling growing pains? :gblum:

Yes, I remember and now that I look back on it I probably got as much out of many other areas of Gods creation as I did the Bible but I don't know. It seems in my 28 years of reading the Bible I have fought a million wars directly over things like law verses grace, what version is best, greek and hebrew and aramaic renderings, once saved always saved, UR, ET, and a myriad more.

Like I said before, is the Bible there for other reasons than we think? If we can read the Bible, with all its seemingly inconsistancies and contradictions, and still love God with all our hearts and our neighbors as ourselves (especially the second) then we are mature indeed, the Bible has done its job.

What I mean is is it possible God knew the Bible would be 'invisible' to most people and a source of major division to those who are given to see it? Is the purpose of the Bible for us to see beyond and behind it?

cp

QuoteWhat I mean is is it possible God knew the Bible would be 'invisible' to most people and a source of major division to those who are given to see it? Is the purpose of the Bible for us to see beyond and behind it?

absolutly!....and:

there are men who can recite verse after verse even to the point of having the whole bible memorized even to the point of making the bible itself an idiol of the heart, ive seen it. they are even mean as snakes and haters of those not in there club.

((( but hey i was once like them )))) ......being hateful and mean that is even having read and studied much.

sometimes when i dont read it for a few weeks/months i actually get more out of it.

on another forum i was discussing and i asked:

do you have the spirit or just have the book.

his reply was:

""oh so now Gods word is just a book""


thats not even close to what i said but see how he read it?

maybe im getting off topic, but its whats IN the book not the book itself.


know what i mean?

chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 06:05:31 PM

QuoteWhat I mean is is it possible God knew the Bible would be 'invisible' to most people and a source of major division to those who are given to see it? Is the purpose of the Bible for us to see beyond and behind it?

absolutly!....and:

there are men who can recite verse after verse even to the point of having the whole bible memorized even to the point of making the bible itself an idiol of the heart, ive seen it. they are even mean as snakes and haters of those not in there club.

I've seen it too.

Quotesometimes when i dont read it for a few weeks/months i actually get more out of it.

Bingo again Brother.

Quoteon another forum i was discussing and i asked:

do you have the spirit or just have the book.

his reply was:

""oh so now Gods word is just a book""

thats not even close to what i said but see how he read it?

We're trackin like peanut butter and jelly!

Quote from: chuckt on March 10, 2009, 06:05:31 PM
maybe im getting off topic, but its whats IN the book not the book itself.


know what i mean?

chuckt

I do know and as to getting off topic I am still hoping to hear from others how they sum up the Bible. I know how Jesus did!

cp

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 10, 2009, 10:36:55 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 01:24:58 AM
Sparrow I'm married. I can't even show your post to my wife!!!!!  :mblush:

I have said similar to you and about you so I hear ya and thank you. It is nice to know when one connects as I know you and I do with so many here at this forum.

And we are 'neighbors' sis!

cp

Back off CP - sparrow's MINE!!!  :laughing7:... eeerrr... except I'm married too, so... well,  but Solomon had all those, I mean uhm, well that won't work cuz sparrow's married too ... so...
I guess we can all just be friends. Friends in love.  :happy3: :bgdance:

  :thumbsup: :laughing7: :laughing7: Seriously.... I'm telling you, our planets: SAME GALAXY. totally.  :bgdance:

We're going to have the best galaxy...EVER!  :grin:

I'm thinking we'll all be going on some grand adventures together.  :icon_flower:
can't wait.

CP... I'll come back to this tomorrow. I'm so tired I feel slightly delirious so I know I won't make sense and I'll end up rambling (more than usual). But I do have some stuff to add to the original topic!

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 02:49:23 PM
Hey James. Our condition is/was known to God and He still gave us the Bible. He must have known how it would interact with our condition.

cp

Yeah, cp, that's what I'm saying too.  None of this surprises Him.  He knows the end from the beginning, so IMO, that must mean He's working His plan, and I can probably only "get" about 1/000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ of it.  He knows....I know some people (including me perhaps) don't always like this next statement, but I think sometimes we just reach that point to where we have to trust and believe..in Him...search out as much as we can/as much as He gives us, but there comes a point where He knows and I just don't...

Quote from: jabcat on March 11, 2009, 02:36:09 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 02:49:23 PM
Hey James. Our condition is/was known to God and He still gave us the Bible. He must have known how it would interact with our condition.

cp

Yeah, cp, that's what I'm saying too.  None of this surprises Him.  He knows the end from the beginning, so IMO, that must mean He's working His plan, and I can probably only "get" about 1/000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000,000+ of it.  He knows....I know some people (including me perhaps) don't always like this next statement, but I think sometimes we just reach that point to where we have to trust and believe..in Him...search out as much as we can/as much as He gives us, but there comes a point where He knows and I just don't...

What I was getting at was that maybe God gave us the Bible and we are not using it as it is meant to be used. Hmmmmmm. I am thinking here.

I was just thinking today how people didn't even know how to read until not too long ago. Combine that with all the people in jungles and the like. Combine that with those who don't care to read the Bible and then combine all that with those who do care to read the Bible and can but are probably misinterpreting it. That leaves a precious small volume of people for whom the physical written Word has done any good.

Now the spiritual Word has always made worlds, if you get my drift, no matter what. It works whether we read it, don't read it, dissect it, crucify it, caress it or 'make love' to it, misinterpret it or interpret it perfectly. It works and works.

Hmmmm, just thinking out loud here.

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 10, 2009, 03:11:31 PM
And Taf's comment is interesting!!!!  :laughing7:

Taf's just jealous because I'm such a cyber chick magnet  :happy3:
In real life my wife says "If you find anyone dumb enough to run off with you - then they deserve you".  :dontknow: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

Hey All, I woke up with some genuinely nagging questions. Need help here.

I'm going to play totally ignorant here mainly because I am totally ignorant here.

Where in the Bible does it say that the 66 books we call the Bible are the Bible?

Who said these books and only these books are the Bible in the first place?

I am not attacking the Bible, I just realized that I don't have answers to these questions.

cp

I also woke up with this train of thought and it's provocatively disturbing.

I wrote before about how so many couldn't even read until not too long ago and that got me thinking. Discussing Scripture with probably hundreds if not thousands of people over the last 29 years has made me realize some things.

Even if you can read I see that many people say or strongly imply by example and reference that you need to be an expert in languages like Greek, Hebrew, Aramaic and so forth to get the real deeper meaning of what the Bible is saying. And if you have a good understanding of the languages then it is implied you should be well up on the local customs of the time and you should be knowledgable in the way the language was used, the inflections and so forth.

Now if you got all these qualifications then you must read the Bible in its own context which implies you should know even more like maybe how literature is written, the use of parables and allegory for instance. If you got that down then it helps if you are a good grammer scholar.

Now I am not being negative here. I know a person can be totally ignorant of much of what I said above and get life out of the Bible but I wanted some comment on my thoughts so I am writing them here.

Another thought I had was this..........

Are we limiting the Word of God by saying and believing that the 66 books we call the Bible are the only real divinely inspired Words of God? Is our focus too focused?

I better stop here and see how the winds blow. I feel crucifixion in the wind.  :mshock:

And Byron, I hear ya about the cyber chick magnet thing. It is a burden isn't it? Takes one to know one!  :laughing7:

cp

The Bible doesn't call itself the Bible as we know the Bible . . .technically, for me, it's canonized portions of Scripture.  The first century church had a hard time with imposters writing their own letters and then passing them off as authentic.  Infact, many times, they'd actually sign it as Paul or another disciple that they knew carried the clout to get the churches to accept their doctrines.  

Most churches back then would actually have only a couple letters of Paul or a partial copy of the gospels . . .so basically, a group of highly esteemed men of God gathered together and went through all of the resources being used and passed off as real . . . and they sifted through all of it, throwing out that which they deemed as counterfeit and kept that which they deemed as authentic.  There was even a lot of arguing and debating over what they did keep.

From what I learned in my own schooling is, everything from Hebrews on are books that almost didn't get included because they either don't meet, or barely meet the requirments of what is deemed as authentic Scripture.  For one . . .the author had to be clearly known . .and Hebrews doesn't specify that . . . the book had to have a fair amount of content . . .or, it had to be more than a paragraph or two . . .and if you notice, many of the books following Hebrews are very small . . .and that was why "they" almost didn't get added in.  

The book had to have Christ as the center-piece . . .which is why some books in the Catholic Bible are not included in ours.  They seem to veer away from the ministry of Christ and get more into rituals and agendas of others.  This is where the "inspired by God" really played a key role.  They had to be in harmony with the rest of the books . . .and you couldn't cut part of a book out and keep the other part.  It was either the book as a whole was in agreement, and if there were parts that were not, the whole book had to be removed.

If I'm not mistaken . . .the Bible we have is not the same as the one they originally agreed on . .it's been modified more than once since the first attempt.

It's been a while since I did the study on this . . .so what I have shared out is just from memory.



Having said all of that . . . I also believe that if we read in the spirit what the letter is saying, we'll get the truth of the message regardless of translation or script.  There is truth in the Apocrypha (books that were left out of the canon) if you read it in the spirit and not by the letter.  If we are led by the Spirit of God, He will lead us into all truths.  If we are led by our own minds, we'll get tangled up in definitions, bent principles and inaccurate doctrines.  Many here on this forum have made comments from time to time of the idea that all the different denominations and beliefs that are out there . .seem to have a fraction of truth woven in them throughout.  Example, pergatory . . .I don't agree exactly as the Catholics do on this, but I can see now, there is much more truth to it than I originally thought.

And I think it's the same with all the other beliefs as well.  And if we simply allow the Spirit to lead us, we can take the good from all of it, leave the stuff that's not so good, and still benefit greatly from all.  The 66 books of the Bible may not be the entire volume of the book . . .But Christ "is".  I do know that books like 1st and 2nd Corinthians are not the only two books written to the people of Corinth.  I know that the belief is that Paul wrote two other books to them . . .one after 1st Corinthians . . .and another after 2nd Corinthians . . . which means what "we" have is actually 1st and 3rd Corinthians.

Either way . . . the Bible is only part of what declares God's glory.  The earth declares God's glory . .and we ourselves are epistles of God to others also.

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 02:28:04 PM
Hey All, I woke up with some genuinely nagging questions. Need help here.

I'm going to play totally ignorant here mainly because I am totally ignorant here.

Where in the Bible does it say that the 66 books we call the Bible are the Bible?

Who said these books and only these books are the Bible in the first place?

I am not attacking the Bible, I just realized that I don't have answers to these questions.

cp

there really never have been 66 books in the cannon.

you can google this stuff to find it out about the jewish bible and how it was broken up.

be that as it may:

The Church View:
      In the Catholic Church, the Bible is the Douay Bible consisting of 73 books. In the Protestant church only the 66 books that were approved by the Synod of Dordrecht in 1618 are in what is known as the Authorized King James Bible.

The Bible View:
      Though there is no specific list or accounting of all the books that made up the complete Bible in scripture, there are over 20 books mentioned in the Bible, but not found there. This is proof that many have been removed and there is evidence that many more fell under the same fate.

An Introduction
      Human history has allowed precious few ancient religious writings to survive the onslaught of the more aggressive and powerful religious forces, which seek only to gain territory and wealth. Genocide and cultural eradication always go hand in hand with missionary zeal. In many cases every trace of the conquered society's religious writings, practices, icons, and even buildings were destroyed in the name of conversion from worship of gods considered evil, and religious customs labeled as heresies. What generally results from past crusades is the conqueror's religion replacing or predominantly blending with the conquered culture's former religious practice, making its religion almost unrecognizable. Christianity falls into the latter category, having been the victim of the Roman Empire, under the Emperor Constantine, who blended the Christian Church with the institutionalized "pagan" practices of Rome and eliminated any semblance of either the Jewish religious influence or the first church Jesus established during his ministry.

http://www.thelostbooks.com/intro.htm

Books Mentioned, But Not Found, In The Bible
      There are between eighteen to twenty-four books mentioned in the Bible, but not included.  The variation is due to possible double mentions using differing names for the same book.

Book of the Covenant
♦  Exodus 24:7  And he took the book of the covenant, and read in the audience of the people: and they said, All that the Lord hath said will we do, and be obedient.
There are those that believe the Book of the Covenant is found in Exodus chapters 20 through 23. There are no authoritative sources for this text.
Book of the Wars of the Lord
♦  Numbers 21:14  Wherefore it is said in the book of the wars of the Lord, What he did in the Red sea, and in the brooks of Arnon,
Certain sources believe that this is to be found by drawing text from several Old Testament books.  There are no authoritative sources for this text.
Book of Jasher Here
♦  Joshua 10:13  And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
♦  2 Samuel 1:18 (Also he bade them teach the children of Judah the use of the bow: behold, it is written in the book of Jasher.)
The Manner of the Kingdom / Book of Statutes
♦  1 Samuel 10:25 Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a book, and laid it up before the Lord. And Samuel sent all the people away, every man to his house.
Book of Samuel the Seer
♦  1 Chronicles 29:29  Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
Nathan the Prophet
♦  1 Chronicles 29:29  Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
♦  2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
Acts of Solomon
♦  1 Kings 11:41  And the rest of the acts of Solomon, and all that he did, and his wisdom, are they not written in the book of the acts of Solomon?
Shemaiah the Prophet
♦  2 Chronicles 12:15  Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually.
Prophecy of Abijah
♦  2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
Story of Prophet Iddo
♦  2 Chronicles 13:22  And the rest of the acts of Abijah, and his ways, and his sayings, are written in  the story of the prophet Iddo.
Visions of Iddo the Seer
♦  2 Chronicles 9:29  Now the rest of the acts of Solomon, first and last, are they not written in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the prophecy of Ahijah the Shilonite, and in the visions of Iddo the seer against Jeroboam the son of Nebat?
Iddo Genealogies
♦  2 Chronicles 12:15 Now the acts of Rehoboam, first and last, are they not written in the book of Shemaiah the prophet, and of Iddo the seer concerning genealogies? And there were wars between Rehoboam and Jeroboam continually
Book of Jehu
♦  2 Chronicles 20:34  Now the rest of the acts of Jehoshaphat, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Jehu the son of Hanani, who is mentioned in the book of the kings of Israel.
Sayings of the Seers   Here  (Description)
♦  2 Chronicles 33:19  His prayer also, and how God was intreated of him, and all his sin, and his trespass, and the places wherein he built high places, and set up groves and graven images, before he was humbled: behold, they are written among the sayings of the seers.
Book of Enoch  Here
♦  Jude 1:14  And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
Book of Gad the Seer
♦  1 Chronicles 29:29  Now the acts of David the king, first and last, behold, they are written in the book of Samuel the seer, and in the book of Nathan the prophet, and in the book of Gad the seer,
Epistle to Corinth Here
♦  1 Corinthians 5:9  I wrote unto you in an epistle not to company with fornicators:
Epistle to the Ephesians   (Missing)
♦  Ephesians  3:3  How that by revelation he made known unto me the mystery; (as I wrote afore in few words,  4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)   
Epistle from Laodicea to the Colossians  (Missing)
♦  Colossians 4:16  And when this epistle is read among you, cause that it be read also in the church of the Laodiceans; and that ye likewise read the epistle from Laodicea.
Nazarene Prophecy Source
♦  Matthew 2:23  And he came and dwelt in a city called Nazareth: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken by the prophets, He shall be called a Nazarene
Acts of Uziah
♦  2 Chronicles 26:22  Now the rest of the acts of Uzziah, first and last, did Isaiah the prophet, the son of Amoz, write.
The Annals of King David
♦  1 Chronicles 27:24  Joab son of Zeruiah began to count the men but did not finish. Wrath came on Israel on account of this numbering, and the number was not entered in the book of the annals of King David.
Jude, the Missing Epistle
♦  Jude 1:3   Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

http://www.thelostbooks.com/intro2.htm

 :cloud9: That's the way I see it too Nathan .... :thumbsup:  Chuckt that was one informative post  :thumbsup: Blessings....

Good stuff gang so now to my point.

Why do we hold what we call the Bible in such high esteem over say other written words that are obviously inspired by God Himself?

Again I believe the Bible is a book of books to be honored and esteemed as Gods dictated word to us but aren't there many other written pieces that are inspired by God?

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
Good stuff gang so now to my point.

Why do we hold what we call the Bible in such high esteem over say other written words that are obviously inspired by God Himself?

Again I believe the Bible is a book of books to be honored and esteemed as Gods dictated word to us but aren't there many other written pieces that are inspired by God?

cp

In a word?  Fear.  Fear of being misled.  Fear of being entangled in a form of God, but missing the power thereof.  Fear of more confusion . . .and perhaps even fear of freedom. 

Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 09:34:05 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 07:10:29 PM
Good stuff gang so now to my point.

Why do we hold what we call the Bible in such high esteem over say other written words that are obviously inspired by God Himself?

Again I believe the Bible is a book of books to be honored and esteemed as Gods dictated word to us but aren't there many other written pieces that are inspired by God?

cp

In a word?  Fear.  Fear of being misled.  Fear of being entangled in a form of God, but missing the power thereof.  Fear of more confusion . . .and perhaps even fear of freedom. 

Nathan, you are not suppose to encourage me in this!!! Now you got me really thinking. This God seeking with all ones heart is scary.

I still think God is up to something with what we call Scripture and I'm thinking it's not what it seems.

cp

Nothing is what it seems . . .that's the beauty of it all.  As soon as we let go of what we know, the sooner we can see what we don't understand.

Quote from: Nathan on March 11, 2009, 10:05:22 PM
Nothing is what it seems . . .that's the beauty of it all.  As soon as we let go of what we know, the sooner we can see what we don't understand.

It's the letting go of what we have that is very hard and extremely scary. I mean it. The old proverbial hanging from the cliff and trying to believe the very strong net below will be enough to catch you safely if you only let go.

And what happens if what we let go of is the real thing? I suppose God will guide.

cp

Y'know, CP... I had started to post a thread a week or so ago, and I never posted it, but I saved the text. (It's in Blue.)

Just curious.

What if...
the bible was discovered to be a complete fraud?
What if all religion turned out to be false?

How would that affect you?
would you still believe in God?
What would you do if you weren't able to discuss  bible verses and bible meanings?

My views are that I have found considerable comfort and meaning and truth in the bible.
However, my belief in God does not depend on it.
I believed in God before I read anything in the bible.
It was the BIBLE that actually made me sort of turn away from God, to be honest. (in the beginning when my eyes were a bit hazy.)
I see God's word all over His creation.
I feel Him in my heart.

It wasn't the bible that helped me believe in God, actually, it was in SPITE of the bible.
And then when I started putting the jigsaw pieces together, and reading the bible from a new set of eyes, did the bible even start to make some sort of sense.

I know some of you grew up on the bible and have completely opposite experiences.
I was just curious.

Pretty much nothing can shake my belief in God.
Aliens landing? Nope, Still believe in God.
Evil getting worse? Nope, still believe in God.
The world turning inside out? Nope, still believe in God.

I feel like... He's USED the bible to talk to me.

hmmm.I guess I just see it as... what is the POINT in debating all the verses and every last little shred of whatever that's in the bible, when you've kind of gotten the gist of what God is trying to tell us? about LOVE. And what it means. and how GOD IS LOVE. and that LOVE is what we need to LEARN.
Isn't that the point?  

seems like we make it too difficult. When really it's something so simple a child can understand. And actually children DO understand... it's just they lose more and more of it as they age in this fallen world and get away from innocence. But... that's ALSO the point. To experience the darkness so we can appreciate and cling to the light, cling to GOD.  WE.NEED.GOD. Period. That's what this life shows us... We Need Him. We can't rule ourselves. Look around you at our life, at the world, We cannot rule ourselves. WE NEED HIM. (and He needs us because He loves us.)

Why do we NEED all that other stuff...?
Sometimes, I look at all the forums and all the thousands of different discussions going on dissecting scripture and I think, doesn't this just get turned into yet ANOTHER distraction?
something to keep us busy.
Too busy to go out and start trying to spread the love.  :dontknow:

:dontknow:   <----- I really don't know. I don't know if I'm wrong or right or what. just don't know.



peace.

Maybe my view is just too simple.
Maybe... other people dissect scripture so much because they want to know MORE about God?
Maybe I feel like I know the most important thing there is.. (about God being Love..) and so I don't have the drive to know more?

and maybe I am wrong for that.

hmmm.
That's possible.

Maybe my views are too shallow or something?
But..

I'm just being me.
aren't I?

Shouldn't I follow where my path is leading?
Aren't we all different?

:JCThink:

Maybe both views are true.

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 07:00:54 AM

Maybe my views are too shallow or something?

but...y'know...
they're not.
at all.

My views actually run very, very deep.
What I think about in relation to this world and love and God...my beliefs...what I feel about HIM and His relation to US.  y'know, it's NOT shallow. Not one bit.

I'm actually feeling very repentent for even thinking that.
Like I just dishonored everything He has ever led me too....

Well, I hereby take back what I said up there in the quote.

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 08:33:07 AM

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 07:00:54 AM

Maybe my views are too shallow or something?

but...y'know...
they're not.
at all.

My views actually run very, very deep.
What I think about in relation to this world and love and God...my beliefs...what I feel about HIM and His relation to US.  y'know, it's NOT shallow. Not one bit.

I'm actually feeling very repentent for even thinking that.
Like I just dishonored everything He has ever led me too....

Well, I hereby take back what I said up there in the quote.

You're talking to yourself again!!!  :thumbsup:

A shallow stream has a lot of frenetic action, little tributaries running in various patterns and in various directions.

A deep deep river is a single simplistic stable flow.  :happy3:

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
Y'know, CP... I had started to post a thread a week or so ago, and I never posted it, but I saved the text. (It's in Blue.)

Just curious.

What if...
the bible was discovered to be a complete fraud?
What if all religion turned out to be false?

How would that affect you?
would you still believe in God?
What would you do if you weren't able to discuss  bible verses and bible meanings?

My views are that I have found considerable comfort and meaning and truth in the bible.
However, my belief in God does not depend on it.
I believed in God before I read anything in the bible.
It was the BIBLE that actually made me sort of turn away from God, to be honest. (in the beginning when my eyes were a bit hazy.)
I see God's word all over His creation.
I feel Him in my heart.

It wasn't the bible that helped me believe in God, actually, it was in SPITE of the bible.
And then when I started putting the jigsaw pieces together, and reading the bible from a new set of eyes, did the bible even start to make some sort of sense.

I know some of you grew up on the bible and have completely opposite experiences.
I was just curious.

Pretty much nothing can shake my belief in God.
Aliens landing? Nope, Still believe in God.
Evil getting worse? Nope, still believe in God.
The world turning inside out? Nope, still believe in God.

I feel like... He's USED the bible to talk to me.

hmmm.I guess I just see it as... what is the POINT in debating all the verses and every last little shred of whatever that's in the bible, when you've kind of gotten the gist of what God is trying to tell us? about LOVE. And what it means. and how GOD IS LOVE. and that LOVE is what we need to LEARN.
Isn't that the point?  

seems like we make it too difficult. When really it's something so simple a child can understand. And actually children DO understand... it's just they lose more and more of it as they age in this fallen world and get away from innocence. But... that's ALSO the point. To experience the darkness so we can appreciate and cling to the light, cling to GOD.  WE.NEED.GOD. Period. That's what this life shows us... We Need Him. We can't rule ourselves. Look around you at our life, at the world, We cannot rule ourselves. WE NEED HIM. (and He needs us because He loves us.)

Why do we NEED all that other stuff...?
Sometimes, I look at all the forums and all the thousands of different discussions going on dissecting scripture and I think, doesn't this just get turned into yet ANOTHER distraction?
something to keep us busy.
Too busy to go out and start trying to spread the love.  :dontknow:

:dontknow:   <----- I really don't know. I don't know if I'm wrong or right or what. just don't know.

peace.

Sparrow, I want to say Wowzer but some may think I'm overreacting to this post of yours because you have been so nice to me. You have and I'm not.

Seriously I have been thinking the same thing about the Bible. I think the Bible is a very special book being used by God but I have already said in other places that I am starting to think it is being used in ways different than what we think it's meant for.

I too see the Bible as blinding as many as it has given sight to and it stands up and says that of itself.......... I thank you God that you have hidden these things.......

I see it causing much infighting and it stands up and takes credit for doing that too........I come to bring division.......

People have argued over every aspect of the Bible since the first word........Peter and Paul.

Such a great insight Sparrow about if there was no Bible would we still love and seek God. I literally had this same thought last night. I did. I also came to the conclusion that I would probably have a better relationship with Him if I never encountered the Bible! This scares the heeby jeebies out of me. Maybe it's true, maybe it's not. I will seek God on the matter much more.

Again, I too see the relevance of the Bible but I see the relevance of all of Gods spoken words which is all life to me. The Bible is not 66 books to me. It is 66 books, every insect that lives, every flower that blooms, every person that draws breath, every fish that swims. These and so much more are the Bible to me, the Word of GOd.

cp

I'm reading this over again and it is so good I want to dissect it a bit if for nothing else, for my own sake......

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
Y'know, CP... I had started to post a thread a week or so ago, and I never posted it, but I saved the text. (It's in Blue.)

Just curious.

What if...
the bible was discovered to be a complete fraud?
What if all religion turned out to be false?

How would that affect you?
would you still believe in God?
What would you do if you weren't able to discuss  bible verses and bible meanings?

Amazingly great question and good for the soul, like vegatables to the physical body!

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
My views are that I have found considerable comfort and meaning and truth in the bible.

Amen.

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
However, my belief in God does not depend on it.
I believed in God before I read anything in the bible.

So true.

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
It was the BIBLE that actually made me sort of turn away from God, to be honest. (in the beginning when my eyes were a bit hazy.)

This was not true for me but I sense it now.

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
I see God's word all over His creation.
I feel Him in my heart.

This is what I am coming to see as the Bible.

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
It wasn't the bible that helped me believe in God, actually, it was in SPITE of the bible.
And then when I started putting the jigsaw pieces together, and reading the bible from a new set of eyes, did the bible even start to make some sort of sense.

New set of eyes! Yes!

Quote from: sparrow on March 12, 2009, 06:16:16 AM
I know some of you grew up on the bible and have completely opposite experiences.
I was just curious.

Pretty much nothing can shake my belief in God.
Aliens landing? Nope, Still believe in God.
Evil getting worse? Nope, still believe in God.
The world turning inside out? Nope, still believe in God.

I feel like... He's USED the bible to talk to me.

hmmm.I guess I just see it as... what is the POINT in debating all the verses and every last little shred of whatever that's in the bible, when you've kind of gotten the gist of what God is trying to tell us? about LOVE. And what it means. and how GOD IS LOVE. and that LOVE is what we need to LEARN.
Isn't that the point? [/color]

seems like we make it too difficult. When really it's something so simple a child can understand. And actually children DO understand... it's just they lose more and more of it as they age in this fallen world and get away from innocence. But... that's ALSO the point. To experience the darkness so we can appreciate and cling to the light, cling to GOD.  WE.NEED.GOD. Period. That's what this life shows us... We Need Him. We can't rule ourselves. Look around you at our life, at the world, We cannot rule ourselves. WE NEED HIM. (and He needs us because He loves us.)

Why do we NEED all that other stuff...?
Sometimes, I look at all the forums and all the thousands of different discussions going on dissecting scripture and I think, doesn't this just get turned into yet ANOTHER distraction?
something to keep us busy.
Too busy to go out and start trying to spread the love.  :dontknow:

:dontknow:   <----- I really don't know. I don't know if I'm wrong or right or what. just don't know.



peace.

I want to sum up and say I know why people need to debate and study and seek and put 2 and 2 together and all that is great but we must not worship the Bible. We must only worship teh Word.

Just can't say it all right now but I know you Sparrow and I know I am not condemning anyone elses way of seeking. I respect all the good stuff on this forum and other expressions of people way too much to criticize anyone. I am but a claypot but a claypot in the Masters hands.

cp

I brought this over from another thread. It's important to me. Hope it's OK to do this.

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 02:53:42 AM

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 01:59:57 AM

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 10:53:37 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 11, 2009, 10:38:07 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 10:26:42 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 08:48:22 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 02:53:42 AMTony, being you're one the most literal Brothers I have and you only adhere to what is in the Bible as best you can, may I ask you where in the Bible it says we are to take the 66 books we call the Bible as infallible and the Word of God?

cp


Tony, believe it or not, the above question to you relates to the lost sheep of Israel and the food discussions you are in. Can you comment on it? You must have overlooked it with so much going on here. I truely desire your input for reasons of my own but I do think they may shed light here, as I said. Thanks in advance.

Respectfully,

cp

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 01:59:57 AM2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, for exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,
2Ti 3:17 that the man of God may be equipped, fitted out for every good act."

1Th 2:13 And therefore we also are thanking God unintermittingly that, in accepting the word heard from us, from God you receive, not the word of men, but, according as it truly is, the word of God, which is operating also in you who are believing."

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 02:53:42 AMGood verses Tony but it doesn't say that the 66 books we refer to as Scripture are Scripture.

You base all of your life on what is written in what we call the Bible but how do we know that is what God wants us to do? Aren't there other God inspired words out there that can equip us and fit us for Gods work?

Does it say anywhere in the Bible that the 66 books we call the Bible are what you are referring to when you quote the verses above?

cp

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 01:59:57 AMAll 66 books are holy Scripture.

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 02:53:42 AMHow do you know this Brother?

Quote

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 01:59:57 AMYes, of course I base all my life on what is written in what I call the bible. How do I know that is what God wants us to do that? I just quoted the verse that tells us to do that, that is how I know.

:bigGrin: It does not specifically have to say "The 66 books call the Bible are inspired."

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 02:53:42 AMSo you base your very life on something not based nor confirmed in the Bible?

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 01:59:57 AM
But the Bible does say that ALL Scripture is inspired and I believe that the 66 books we have are what comprises ALL Scripture.

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 02:53:42 AMYes, the Bible does say that all Scripture is inspired and you have chosen to believe that the 66 books are what comprises Scripture. You have chosen this belief based upon what? Tradition? Instinct? Your own wisdom?

Again I am sincere here and you are a knowledgable and very exact kind of person so I know you represent many others.

cp

claypot just my thoughts on these verses.

2Ti 3:16 All scripture is inspired by God, and is beneficial for teaching, dfor exposure, for correction, for discipline in righteousness,

2Ti 3:17 that the human man of God may be equipped, fitted toward every good act.


The word translated to scripture has the primary defintion of  "holy writ". 

From our english dictionary we could look up Holy writ and then say  that is the bible.   But the fact that scriptures (generically) have been compiled by man and decided upon under the premise that God has orchestrated this perfectly is not necessarily concrete.

After all, Gods word ultimatly is spirit,  as we see the history of mans manipulation of the bible then that verse is not accuratly transfered to "the bible" it is accuratly used in an informal sense for what scripture is supposed to be used for.

Does this mean I do not hold the bible in high regaurd.  Not really, but we are not supposed to worship the bible and I won't worship it,  it is because man has taken scriptures and made them into something that can send a message and have a use that violates the above verse.

If we can conclude that the bible indeed contains the message of fear and vengeance and ultimate hopelessness for anyone not figuring it all out just right, I think then the bible has contradicted itself in such a way as to warrant a conclusion of its worthlessness.


Whether we NEED any other set of writings is beside the point.   God ultimatly is saying that any writing that succeeds in achieving the criteria of what it is used for is a manifestation of God.

The book the Shack, may not be considered scripture by "definition" but it is inspiring people to be closer to God and perhaps meets the criteria of the verses.

Or I would say ultimatly, if you use anything in accordance with the criteria of inspiring good acts,  then you have used it in a manner inspired by God.

One of the great perversions of religion is maintaining that nothing but the bible is good for us and that we have to live by the accepted interpretations in order to be clean and pure in gods eyes.  in reality religion or the people adhereing to the strict letter of the law are the ones expecting to be pleased.   And universalism is not exempt from having people in it with that expectation as well.

claypot, I know the "Old Testament" should be included in the canon of what we term "Sacred Scriptures," and what is inspired, because they were what Jesus used as well as the other apostles:

Luke 24:44-45  Now He said to them, "These are My words, which I speak to you, still being with you, for all must be fulfilled that is written in the law of Moses and the prophets and psalms concerning Me."  (45)  Then He opens up their mind to understand the scriptures,

Albert Barnes says:
Luk 24:44 -
These are the words - Or this is the "fulfillment" of what I before told you respecting my death. See Luk_18:33; Mar_10:33.

While I was yet with you - Before my death. While I was with you as a teacher and guide.
In the law of Moses - The five books of Moses - Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy. Among the Jews this was the first division of the Old Testament, and was called the "law."
The prophets - This was the second and largest part of the Hebrew Scriptures. It comprehended the books of Joshua, Judges, 1st and 2nd Samuel, 1st and 2nd Kings, which were called the "former prophets;" and Isaiah, Jeremiah, Ezekiel, and the twelve smaller books from Daniel, to Malachi, which were called the "latter prophets."
The psalms - The word here used probably means what were comprehended under the name of "Hagiographa," or holy writings. This consisted of the Psalms, Proverbs, Job, Song of Solomon, Ruth, Lamentations, Ecclesiastes, Esther, Daniel, Ezra, and Nehemiah, and the two books of Chronicles. This division of the Old Testament was in use long before the time of Christ, and was what he referred to here; and he meant to say that in "each of" these divisions of the Old Testament there were prophecies respecting himself. The "particular" subject before them was his "resurrection from the dead." A most striking prediction of this is contained in Psa_16:9-11. Compare it with Act_2:24-32; Act_13:35-37.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 04:03:09 PM

From our english dictionary we could look up Holy writ and then say  that is the bible.   But the fact that scriptures (generically) have been compiled by man and decided upon under the premise that God has orchestrated this perfectly is not necessarily concrete.

I believe the Old Testament was, of course, compiled by men. But those men were chosen by God to perform specific tasks. The writings of Moses: did a bunch of men get together one day when the first five books were written and say: Hmm, should we include the first five books in our canon? Of course not. They just knew those writings were from God for them. Likewise all the other O.T. writings.

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 04:52:08 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 04:03:09 PM

From our english dictionary we could look up Holy writ and then say  that is the bible.   But the fact that scriptures (generically) have been compiled by man and decided upon under the premise that God has orchestrated this perfectly is not necessarily concrete.

I believe the Old Testament was, of course, compiled by men. But those men were chosen by God to perform specific tasks. The writings of Moses: did a bunch of men get together one day when the first five books were written and say: Hmm, should we include the first five books in our canon? Of course not. They just knew those writings were from God for them. Likewise all the other O.T. writings.

Well Tony, it is not my intention to debate what you believe.

For me I look at the world and what the claim of men inspired by God has done to me and some I love and even the word and draw my conclusions from that.

I have seen more good done in the name of selfless love by any name than I have from men wielding the bible as the final authority of judgment over someone ever has.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 05:30:24 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 04:52:08 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 04:03:09 PM

From our english dictionary we could look up Holy writ and then say  that is the bible.   But the fact that scriptures (generically) have been compiled by man and decided upon under the premise that God has orchestrated this perfectly is not necessarily concrete.

I believe the Old Testament was, of course, compiled by men. But those men were chosen by God to perform specific tasks. The writings of Moses: did a bunch of men get together one day when the first five books were written and say: Hmm, should we include the first five books in our canon? Of course not. They just knew those writings were from God for them. Likewise all the other O.T. writings.

Well Tony, it is not my intention to debate what you believe.

For me I look at the world and what the claim of men inspired by God has done to me and some I love and even the word and draw my conclusions from that.

I have seen more good done in the name of selfless love by any name than I have from men wielding the bible as the final authority of judgment over someone ever has.

That's cool. I don't want to debate what you believe either. But not all who "wield" the Bible as the final authority do so in a negative way. And it is incorrect to judge everyone who does believe the Bible is the final authority as being equal to those who have been abusive.

That's like saying we should not have the Bill of Rights in the United States because some politicians have used it to abuse people. Or it is like saying because some nut jobs drove their cars into innocent bystanders and so we should outlaw all cars etc. etc. etc. etc.

Tony, do you believe the Bible is the 'final authority'?

If so, why?

For that matter, what does 'final authority' mean to you?

Again, I am not trying to argue with you personally Tony. I think you represent much of what's in me and others and to discuss this with you, like with Paul and Sparrow and others, is to discuss it within myself.

cp

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 04:44:23 PM
claypot, I know the "Old Testament" should be included in the canon of what we term "Sacred Scriptures," and what is inspired, because they were what Jesus used as well as the other apostles:

From what I have learned Jesus also used other older teachings not found in the Old Testament yet these are not considered Sacred Scripture.

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 05:53:17 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 04:44:23 PM
claypot, I know the "Old Testament" should be included in the canon of what we term "Sacred Scriptures," and what is inspired, because they were what Jesus used as well as the other apostles:

From what I have learned Jesus also used other older teachings not found in the Old Testament yet these are not considered Sacred Scripture.

cp

such as? proof?

paul did:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 05:37:23 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 05:30:24 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 04:52:08 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 04:03:09 PM

From our english dictionary we could look up Holy writ and then say  that is the bible.   But the fact that scriptures (generically) have been compiled by man and decided upon under the premise that God has orchestrated this perfectly is not necessarily concrete.

I believe the Old Testament was, of course, compiled by men. But those men were chosen by God to perform specific tasks. The writings of Moses: did a bunch of men get together one day when the first five books were written and say: Hmm, should we include the first five books in our canon? Of course not. They just knew those writings were from God for them. Likewise all the other O.T. writings.

Well Tony, it is not my intention to debate what you believe.

For me I look at the world and what the claim of men inspired by God has done to me and some I love and even the word and draw my conclusions from that.

I have seen more good done in the name of selfless love by any name than I have from men wielding the bible as the final authority of judgment over someone ever has.

That's cool. I don't want to debate what you believe either. But not all who "wield" the Bible as the final authority do so in a negative way. And it is incorrect to judge everyone who does believe the Bible is the final authority as being equal to those who have been abusive.

That's like saying we should not have the Bill of Rights in the United States because some politicians have used it to abuse people. Or it is like saying because some nut jobs drove their cars into innocent bystanders and so we should outlaw all cars etc. etc. etc. etc.

Nope, not the same thing at all.    

In other words Tony,  I don't care and you do not have the authority to claim I must listen to YOU because you use anything from the bible.

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 05:58:33 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 05:53:17 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 12, 2009, 04:44:23 PM
claypot, I know the "Old Testament" should be included in the canon of what we term "Sacred Scriptures," and what is inspired, because they were what Jesus used as well as the other apostles:

From what I have learned Jesus also used other older teachings not found in the Old Testament yet these are not considered Sacred Scripture.

cp

such as? proof?

I have a book at another location that I think said that even some of the parables that Jesus used were not original to Jesus. Have you read of this? It is a book listing sayings of Jesus and comparing them to Buddah I think. It compares a lot of Jesus' sayings with those already supposedly uttered by Buddah.

My point is though, is that even if Jesus used a phrase from another book in the Old Test does that make every individual book of the OT 'The Bible'?

And again, you are very strict about only believing what is directly backed up by the Bible and I still do not see where God said that only the 66 books we refer to as the Bible is His only Word to us for instruction and guidance.

cp

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 04:03:09 PM
From our english dictionary we could look up Holy writ and then say  that is the bible.   But the fact that scriptures (generically) have been compiled by man and decided upon under the premise that God has orchestrated this perfectly is not necessarily concrete.

Isn't the KJV the prime example that the Bible isn't compiled by God? The older versions had Apocrypha.
There are modern (less that 10 years old) translations that still contain Apocrypha.

Quote from: chuckt on March 12, 2009, 06:02:05 PM
paul did:

Act 17:28 For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

But Paul was not inferring that the pagan poets were inspired by God to be in our Sacred Scriptures. He was just trying to find common ground to work with to get a foot in the door so to speak.
"1Cor 9:20-21  And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under law as under law (not being myself under law), that I should be gaining those under law;"  (21)  to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law."

claypot, I seriously doubt that Jesus learned the words of Buddha to be inspired. If anything Buddha *may* have read from the inspired writings of the Jews and other works around the world of his day.

QuoteBut Paul was not inferring that the pagan poets were inspired by God to be in our Sacred Scriptures. He was just trying to find common ground to work with to get a foot in the door so to speak.
"1Cor 9:20-21  And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under law as under law (not being myself under law), that I should be gaining those under law;"  (21)  to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law."

i realize that good sir Tony bro Jeans friend  :happy3:

do you beleive we move and have our being in him? even as thier poets stated? because its in the bible too  :myahoo: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :Whistle:

Quoteclaypot, I seriously doubt that Jesus learned the words of Buddha to be inspired. If anything Buddha *may* have read from the inspired writings of the Jews and other works around the world of his day.

BAM i agree with this. truth is truth.


peace
chuckt

Amen all. All I know is I gots me lots of thinkin to do. God is a marvel, that's for sure. I'm having a blast here but I'm scared -----less at the same time. Kind of like a roller coaster ride, that first big fall. Clicking slowly up and up and up and up and then...........................hang on!!!!!! So scary yet so thrilling.

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 07:48:55 PM
Amen all. All I know is I gots me lots of thinkin to do. God is a marvel, that's for sure. I'm having a blast here but I'm scared -----less at the same time. Kind of like a roller coaster ride, that first big fall. Clicking slowly up and up and up and up and then...........................hang on!!!!!! So scary yet so thrilling.

cp

what are you scared of?

chuckt

Quote from: chuckt on March 12, 2009, 07:35:58 PM

QuoteBut Paul was not inferring that the pagan poets were inspired by God to be in our Sacred Scriptures. He was just trying to find common ground to work with to get a foot in the door so to speak.
"1Cor 9:20-21  And I became to the Jews as a Jew, that I should be gaining Jews; to those under law as under law (not being myself under law), that I should be gaining those under law;"  (21)  to those without law as without law (not being without God's law, but legally Christ's), that I should be gaining those without law."

i realize that good sir Tony bro Jeans friend  :happy3:

do you beleive we move and have our being in him? even as thier poets stated? because its in the bible too  :myahoo: :Egyptdance2: :boogie: :boydance: :Whistle:

No, the poets stated this in bold below:
Act 17:28 for in Him we are living and moving and are, as some poets of yours also have declared, 'For of that race also are we.'"

Quoteclaypot, I seriously doubt that Jesus learned the words of Buddha to be inspired. If anything Buddha *may* have read from the inspired writings of the Jews and other works around the world of his day.


BAM i agree with this. truth is truth.


peace
chuckt

chuckt it's kind of like this:



THE incorrect partitioning of the word of truth is well illustrated by the following foolish story. How many there are who are doing just what this man did, yet fail to see how funny their combinations are! We do not know who wrote it.

     A zealous convert felt that he had been called to preach, so he applied for admission to the ministry and submitted himself to examination by a minister. The examination proceeded as follows:


     Can you read Sam? No suh.
     Can you write? No suh, but mah wife can.
     Well, do you know the Bible? I's pretty good in de Bible; in
fack, ah knows de Bible from lid to lid.
     What part of the Bible do you like best? Well, suh, ah likes
de New Testament.
     What book? De book of de parables, sah.
     Which parable do you like best? Which parable? Why lawsy, ah
likes de parable ob de Good Samarratun.
     Well, tell me the parable of the Good Samaritan.
     Well suh, once upon a time a man went down from Jerusalem to
Jericho, and fell among thieves; and de thorns grew up an choked
dat man; an he went on an didn't hab no money, and he met de Queen
ob Sheba. And behold she gabe dat man— yessuh, she gabe dat man a
thousand talents ob gold and a hundred changes ob raiment. An he
got in a chariot straightaway an drobe furiously. An as he was
speedin' along under a big sycamore tree, his hair don got caught
in a limb an left him hanging dare. An he hung dar many days an
many nights, and ravens brought him food to eat an water to drink.
An one night while he was hanging dar asleep his wife Delilah came
along an cut off his hair, an de poor man dropped, an fell on
stony ground. An it began to rain, and it rained forty days and
forty nights, an he hid himself in a cave until de rain stopped.
An when he left de cave he met a man who said, "Come an take
supper wid me," but he said, "No, I can't, I done married a wife
an can't come." So de man went out into de highways and byways and
compelled dem to come in fo supper. He went on an came to
Jerusalem, an when he got dar he seen Queen Jezebel sittin' high
up in de window, an when he saw her he said aloud, "Trow her
down." An dey trew her down. An he cried again, "Trow her down
some more," an dey trew her down some more. An dey trew her down
seventy times seven; an ob de fragments was picked up twelve
baskets. Now whose wife you all think she'll be in de
resurrection?

Well . . .thank God "I'M" not like that sinner!!

ouch! :icon_flower:

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 07:10:29 PM

Why do we hold what we call the Bible in such high esteem over say other written words that are obviously inspired by God Himself?

For me,  when I looked only to the bible and felt I could only see inspiration within its words and nothing else it was fear,  residual fear of the "just in case" manner.


And it is not that I do not really like the bible, but I do not worship it and I know I have been given truth without ever reading its words and I feel no purpose for me to pour over it's every words trying to decifer it all.  I find fundamental truths in many things including the bible.

If there is a final authority and if there is a God that is inherantly love,  then that is what the final authority is.

Quote from: chuckt on March 12, 2009, 07:55:25 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 07:48:55 PM
Amen all. All I know is I gots me lots of thinkin to do. God is a marvel, that's for sure. I'm having a blast here but I'm scared -----less at the same time. Kind of like a roller coaster ride, that first big fall. Clicking slowly up and up and up and up and then...........................hang on!!!!!! So scary yet so thrilling.

cp

what are you scared of?

chuckt

Of falling into the hands of the living God. Wasn't it Daniel who dropped like a rock in front of an angel and John? Man, Chuck, messing with these here things of God is like handling dymamite, don't you think? It's fun as all get out but dangerous business too. God is not One to mess with even as a kid of His. He loves but His love often makes a roaring lion look tame if you get my drift!

cp

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 12, 2009, 09:02:10 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 11, 2009, 07:10:29 PM

Why do we hold what we call the Bible in such high esteem over say other written words that are obviously inspired by God Himself?

For me,  when I looked only to the bible and felt I could only see inspiration within its words and nothing else it was fear,  residual fear of the "just in case" manner.


And it is not that I do not really like the bible, but I do not worship it and I know I have been given truth without ever reading its words and I feel no purpose for me to pour over it's every words trying to decifer it all.  I find fundamental truths in many things including the bible.

If there is a final authority and if there is a God that is inherantly love,  then that is what the final authority is.

2Ti 2:2 And what things you hear from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who shall be competent to teach others also."

If Paul's words in the Scriptures are so unimportant that you feel you can get everything you need without them, then why circumvent what Paul told Timothy that we don't have to heed his instruction in this?

And we should be reading what he instructed and read the sacred scriptures:

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give heed to reading, to entreaty, to teaching."

There seems to be a tone here that is trying to argue a point that really hasn't been implied.  At least for me that seems to be the case . . . this forum has a great diversity of people.  But to simplify it . . .I see the fundamentalists on one side . ..and spiritualists on the other.  And there seems to be this . . . unspoken line between the two that is argued over.  In this light, I would consider myself as the spiritualist . . .let's just get it out there .  .

And as such, I am one that does see the Word of God being a huge part of the reason for my faith being what it is.  I do feel that it, in all it's truths and light . . .is not the final word "in" me.  The final word in me is that which is a living, breathing sound that has led me here in the first place.  I did not come to a passage in Scripture to instruct me to find tentmaker . . .nor did I hear a voice to tell me to search it out . . .truth be known . . .I'm here because of a relationship I have with a few people here.  God led me "through" others. 

Now . . .If I were one that embraced the Word and the Word alone . . .I would not have heeded, nor would I even be here.  Because even though many quote, many more comment rather than quote.  But I'm not any longer a fundamentalist . . .I once was . .very much so . .but not anymore.  I believe if God wants to talk to me . . .final word or not . . .he can use anything he wants . . .doesn't have to be Scripture at all.  He used a donkey with Baalam, a bush on fire with Moses, a fish with Jonah, a chicken with Peter.  Paid taxes through a fish that Peter caught.  Used a dove with Noah . .a rainbow to.

God can use whatever it is within his and our reach depending on where we are, at the time when he chooses to speak.  Sometimes he speaks to me through my wife . . .sometimes he speaks to me through the magestic passing eagle . .seeming oblivious to my presence . . . does this mean we can throw the Bible away?   Don't be silly!  All this means is, there's more to God and his relationship with me, than any book can contain.  So why would I want to box him in the pages of something that no matter who has what translation, there are still arguments resulting in the words on the pages being read?

It feels like some of these conversations are borderlining on just a little chastizement to those who don't embrace the pages as much as others who do.  I serve a God of the living .. .and the pages of Scripture do have life in them . . .but all to often, that life gets overshadowed by the differences of opinions and perspectives when trying to (ahem . . .) "Rightly divide" . . . 

I think it's funny sometimes when there's a discussion going on and differences surface and probing questions get asked and then somebody posts an entire chapter of Scritpure with no comment before or after by the sender.  I'm thinking as I read it . . ."where on earth are they going with this?"  It's used like . . .a get-out-of-jail-free card in a monopoly game.  We've had it engrained in us that we are to use Scripture to prove our opinions to others.  Surely, no one would argue with "Scripture"!!  It's frustrating sometimes.

What if God actually does work "outside" of the so-called boundaries of the written word?  What if he doesn't "want" to build line upon line in you . . .what if he just wants to REVEAL the nature of His Son to you?  The kingdom that Christ built and is buiding his church on is not the rock of the written word . . .so why is there such an issue with it?  Yes, it's inspired by God . . .yes it leads to Christ . . . but relationship shouldn't come through someone being obedient to what's written . . .I shouldn't have to make myself like you because the Bible says so . . .relationship should happen because we all have the "same" light in us . .it should happen cuz that's just how Christ manifests in us . . .through our relationships with one another.

What bothers me is after a while of hearing the same song and dance from the same people . . .I'm starting to cop an attitude toward certain people here and that's not a godly thing either.  There are some on this forum that I just love reading . . .others . . .I love to watch argue . . .and still others make me just want to walk away from all of it. 

The point is, we may be in different rooms . . .but we're still all in the same house.  We should be able to freely share our perspectives . . .if people build on those things . . .awesome!!  If people are in a different room . .that's okay to.  Some are higher, some are not . . .some are deeper . .some are not.  But we're "all" in the same house . . . which is to say we're all of the same family.  I love my Bible . . .all 8 or 9 translations of it . . .but I love even more the times when something drops in me that I can't "prove" it's in Scripture . . .but at the same time, noone in the world can prove that it isn't God who put it there either.

I love saying things I've never heard myself say before . . .and then just "hover" over what just happened.  It's great to glean from others in their revelating . . .but most of you know . . .hearing a revelation from someone, and receiving one of your own are two completely different experiences.  But noone is denouncing the bible or saying that it's not necessary . . .we're just saying  . . .there's so much more beyond what is written.

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 12:18:31 AM
2Ti 2:2 And what things you hear from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who shall be competent to teach others also."

What determines a faithful man I can trust to learn from?  Which perspective? Which doctrine? Which denomination?  Which church? Which translation?   

I won't follow a man, and thats just how it is. 

Quote
If Paul's words in the Scriptures are so unimportant that you feel you can get everything you need without them, then why circumvent what Paul told Timothy that we don't have to heed his instruction in this?

And we should be reading what he instructed and read the sacred scriptures:

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give heed to reading, to entreaty, to teaching."

First, personal experience.   As a young child I was made aware of something you will not find by just reading the bible or going to church or arguing in a forum.   The system of religion beat it out of me and finally I have returned to that.  I can't teach what it is because I believe that it is beyond our control.

What I wrote was in support of truth in the bible but that I really do not need to try to figure it all out.  No one does.   It is the appearance of a belief that we are somehow spiritually deficient if we can't answer for everything the bible contains that I am rejecting.   The idea that I have to hold the 66 books we now have as the ultimate authority for all truth in light of all the manipulation it has undergone is a doctrinal opinion based on circumstancial case building. This is done by men who claim they just simply have the authority to say so because God inspired it all to end up as these 66 books.   Whatever.


So we have places to discuss things and again, if my views are at a point where I need to leave the forum, I will kindly and in good spirits leave.   

I am not defaming the bible in my opinion, I am trying to build up people in love to realize that the bible contains many great truths, but somewhere along the line all that love and spirituality gets lost as we hammer over what the whole thing means and if we do not get it right theres gonna be trouble.

I have found that evidence again in my own personal life, I have found great joy in my life by letting go of my white knuckled grip of the bible and pursued selfless love with wreckless abandon and am understanding much more about Gods love and spiritual perspectives than I ever have hammering over word after word and scripture after scripture trying to put it all together to know what it means.   I stopped doing that because of the first responce above.

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 10:50:24 PM

Quote from: chuckt on March 12, 2009, 07:55:25 PM

Quote from: claypot on March 12, 2009, 07:48:55 PM
Amen all. All I know is I gots me lots of thinkin to do. God is a marvel, that's for sure. I'm having a blast here but I'm scared -----less at the same time. Kind of like a roller coaster ride, that first big fall. Clicking slowly up and up and up and up and then...........................hang on!!!!!! So scary yet so thrilling.

cp

what are you scared of?

chuckt

Of falling into the hands of the living God. Wasn't it Daniel who dropped like a rock in front of an angel and John? Man, Chuck, messing with these here things of God is like handling dymamite, don't you think? It's fun as all get out but dangerous business too. God is not One to mess with even as a kid of His. He loves but His love often makes a roaring lion look tame if you get my drift!

cp

well i know what you mean, and its healthy to have this respectfull fear and i do beleive Father honours such.

as long as your fear dosent have torment.

1Jo 4:17 Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world.


1Jo 4:18 There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love.


1Jo 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.


hey God will judge his people, but i have 100% confidence in the outcome.


God bless and GRACE

chuckt

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 13, 2009, 02:12:20 AM

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 12:18:31 AM
2Ti 2:2 And what things you hear from me through many witnesses, these commit to faithful men, who shall be competent to teach others also."

What determines a faithful man I can trust to learn from?  Which perspective? Which doctrine? Which denomination?  Which church? Which translation?   

I won't follow a man, and thats just how it is. 

Quote
If Paul's words in the Scriptures are so unimportant that you feel you can get everything you need without them, then why circumvent what Paul told Timothy that we don't have to heed his instruction in this?

And we should be reading what he instructed and read the sacred scriptures:

1Ti 4:13 Till I come, give heed to reading, to entreaty, to teaching."

First, personal experience.   As a young child I was made aware of something you will not find by just reading the bible or going to church or arguing in a forum.   The system of religion beat it out of me and finally I have returned to that.  I can't teach what it is because I believe that it is beyond our control.

What I wrote was in support of truth in the bible but that I really do not need to try to figure it all out.  No one does.   It is the appearance of a belief that we are somehow spiritually deficient if we can't answer for everything the bible contains that I am rejecting.   The idea that I have to hold the 66 books we now have as the ultimate authority for all truth in light of all the manipulation it has undergone is a doctrinal opinion based on circumstancial case building. This is done by men who claim they just simply have the authority to say so because God inspired it all to end up as these 66 books.   Whatever.


So we have places to discuss things and again, if my views are at a point where I need to leave the forum, I will kindly and in good spirits leave.   

I am not defaming the bible in my opinion, I am trying to build up people in love to realize that the bible contains many great truths, but somewhere along the line all that love and spirituality gets lost as we hammer over what the whole thing means and if we do not get it right theres gonna be trouble.

I have found that evidence again in my own personal life, I have found great joy in my life by letting go of my white knuckled grip of the bible and pursued selfless love with wreckless abandon and am understanding much more about Gods love and spiritual perspectives than I ever have hammering over word after word and scripture after scripture trying to put it all together to know what it means.   I stopped doing that because of the first responce above.

Paul, it is good that you love and try to set yourself as a good example of love. Some people who really know their Bibles are just deplorable as to their showing genuine love. I'd rather know and be friends with a person who has genuine love than a bible thumping jerk who can't think of anyone but themselves.

But . . . just because there are jerks out there that know their bibles does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

The whole Bible is about Jesus....and us.

Some day there will not be any [apparent] difference.


Hebrews 10:7
Then said I, Lo, I come (in the volume of the book it is written of me,) to do thy will, O God.

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 01:24:50 PM
But . . . just because there are jerks out there that know their bibles does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

We have some miscommunication going on.   Never once suggested to throw the bible out completely or that it is useless.  The fact that I know people get spiritual revelation without it and that I do not need it as the only focal point of my life in order to find peace and joy is a difference of our opinion and life experiences.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 13, 2009, 02:50:46 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 01:24:50 PM
But . . . just because there are jerks out there that know their bibles does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

We have some miscommunication going on.   Never once suggested to throw the bible out completely or that it is useless.  The fact that I know people get spiritual revelation without it and that I do not need it as the only focal point of my life in order to find peace and joy is a difference of our opinion and life experiences.

I guess I read you wrong. You seem to need the Scriptures but don't need them. I'm kind of getting mixed messages from you.

As to people getting spiritual revelation, well, I've been to churches where so many people had some new revelation, some new prophecy. I've come to the conclusion that most of it is self delusion.

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 13, 2009, 02:50:46 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 01:24:50 PM
But . . . just because there are jerks out there that know their bibles does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

We have some miscommunication going on.   Never once suggested to throw the bible out completely or that it is useless.  The fact that I know people get spiritual revelation without it and that I do not need it as the only focal point of my life in order to find peace and joy is a difference of our opinion and life experiences.

I guess I read you wrong. You seem to need the Scriptures but don't need them. I'm kind of getting mixed messages from you.

As to people getting spiritual revelation, well, I've been to churches where so many people had some new revelation, some new prophecy. I've come to the conclusion that most of it is self delusion.

Yeah,  and so are many peoples opinions that they think others must listen to.

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 13, 2009, 06:52:29 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 04:07:14 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 13, 2009, 02:50:46 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 13, 2009, 01:24:50 PM
But . . . just because there are jerks out there that know their bibles does not mean we should throw the baby out with the bath water.

We have some miscommunication going on.   Never once suggested to throw the bible out completely or that it is useless.  The fact that I know people get spiritual revelation without it and that I do not need it as the only focal point of my life in order to find peace and joy is a difference of our opinion and life experiences.

I guess I read you wrong. You seem to need the Scriptures but don't need them. I'm kind of getting mixed messages from you.

As to people getting spiritual revelation, well, I've been to churches where so many people had some new revelation, some new prophecy. I've come to the conclusion that most of it is self delusion.

Yeah,  and so are many peoples opinions that they think others must listen to.

Yep, opinions should always be understood to be just that and not what one must believe or else.

I would find it interesting to get back to one of my main points and that is to read your summations of the 66 books we call the Bible. I find it interesting that we can sum up this Book of Books in so few words or even one word.

God is a Master at getting us to do many things!

Gods word shall go forth and it will accomplish all He intends to accomplish.

I like that summary.

God is love and love never fails. Another good one.

This month [shall be] unto you the beginning of months: it [shall be] the first month of the year to you.  3  Speak ye unto all the congregation of Israel, saying, In the tenth [day] of this month they shall take to them every man a lamb, according to the house of [their] fathers, a lamb for an house: {lamb: or, kid}  4  And if the household be too little for the lamb, let him and his neighbour next unto his house take [it] according to the number of the souls; every man according to his eating shall make your count for the lamb.  5  Your lamb shall be without blemish, a male of the first year: ye shall take [it] out from the sheep, or from the goats: {of...: Heb. son of a year}  6  And ye shall keep it up until the fourteenth day of the same month: and the whole assembly of the congregation of Israel shall kill it in the evening. {in...: Heb. between the two evenings}  7  And they shall take of the bloodex12.1

Not a good summary in my opinion! :dontknow:

Too much filler for our own good IMO but I'll have to deal with God and the religious instututions on that one I guess.

cp

Actually, that's a "great" summary . . .Christ is the lamb of God . . .that takes away the sin of the world . .  We must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood .  . . according to the number of our household . . . where the carcass lies, the eagles will be gathered together . . .

Eat as much of the bread of heaven as your household can withstand . . .as much as your mind can comprehend.

We are eagles . . .he is the lamb, the carcass, we eat of his flesh, we drink of his blood . . .his flesh is the hidden manna . . .his blood is the life in the manna . . .

Quote from: Nathan on March 13, 2009, 07:45:38 PM
Actually, that's a "great" summary . . .Christ is the lamb of God . . .that takes away the sin of the world . .  We must eat of his flesh and drink of his blood .  . . according to the number of our household . . . where the carcass lies, the eagles will be gathered together . . .

Eat as much of the bread of heaven as your household can withstand . . .as much as your mind can comprehend.

We are eagles . . .he is the lamb, the carcass, we eat of his flesh, we drink of his blood . . .his flesh is the hidden manna . . .his blood is the life in the manna . . .

You got me there Brother!  :Peace2:

I was speaking to the sane Brothers and Sisters, not to the crazies like you and I!!!!!  :boydance:

cp

Quote from: claypot
I would find it interesting to get back to one of my main points and that is to read your summations of the 66 books we call the Bible. I find it interesting that we can sum up this Book of Books in so few words or even one word.

Actually, there are only 49 books {7 times 7} in the Bible, not 66.

http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec021.htm

CHB

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 12, 2009, 10:43:09 AM

You're talking to yourself again!!!  :thumbsup:

I know... I have a real problem with that.. :laughing7:

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 12, 2009, 10:43:09 AM

A shallow stream has a lot of frenetic action, little tributaries running in various patterns and in various directions.

A deep deep river is a single simplistic stable flow.  :happy3:

That is awesome.  :dsunny:
Thank you for that.
I will remember that.

CP... so glad you got what I was saying.

and God's word *IS* over all of His creation.
It's not just in a book.
It's everywhere all around us.

"Every happening, great and small, is a parable whereby God speaks to us, and the art of life is to get the message." - Malcolm Muggeridge

"Our creator is the same and never changes despite the names given Him by people here and in all parts of the world. Even if we gave Him no name at all, He would still be there, within us, waiting to give us good on this earth." - Goerge Washington Carver

"Reading about nature is fine, but if a person walks in the woods and listens carefully, he can learn more than what is in books, for they speak with the voice of God." - George Washington Carver

"I love to think of nature as an unlimited broadcasting station, through which God speaks to us every hour, if we will only tune in." - George Washington Carver


In my humble opinion, those who think the bible is "THE" way to hear from God... don't have good enough hearing.
His word is all around us. We are immersed in "His word".
Literally... immersed. It's all around us.

just my opinion.

peace.

Quote from: CHB on March 14, 2009, 12:51:22 AM

Quote from: claypot
I would find it interesting to get back to one of my main points and that is to read your summations of the 66 books we call the Bible. I find it interesting that we can sum up this Book of Books in so few words or even one word.

Actually, there are only 49 books {7 times 7} in the Bible, not 66.

http://www.askelm.com/secrets/sec021.htm

CHB

66 or 49 are still tons of words to argue and disagree over.

Let me tell you a story. I talked about this at work with a Christian friend. As I was standing by her desk I picked up her pink pad of paper that was for taking notes from phone calls. On top of each sheet on this pad were the words 'Important Notice' and then places for message and phone numbers and so on. You have seen these in offices.

Anyway I picked it up randomly and did a sermon on those two words.

Important Notice

The 'Im' in the word important speaks of the great I Am, Jesus Christ.

The 'port' in important is talking about Jesus being our port in the storm of life.

The 'ant' in the word important indicates how we are like ants compared to God and how we should consider the ants and how they strive.........

The 'ice' in the word notice speaks of our cold, hard hearts before Gods work within.

You get my drift. I could have preached for months if not decades from those 2 words. I'm sure others could have argued and debated over everything I said.

I say all this to say that we could take any written words and apply them to our faith and God. We do all sorts of gymnastics and gyrations to get the words of the Bible to come together for us.

This is not a bad thing but did God make the Bible so obviously contradictory and confusing, and then impress it upon our hearts, to train us to see all things and words as expressions of Himself?

In order to make the Bible say what we need it to say takes amazing brain power and logistic skills and much imagination. These are all good things to exercise. These are the tools of the Spirit!

cp

Quote from: claypot on March 14, 2009, 05:10:57 PM

I say all this to say that we could take any written words and apply them to our faith and God. We do all sorts of gymnastics and gyrations to get the words of the Bible to come together for us.

You can quote a simple passage and that opens the can of worms.

Quote
"God wills that all men be saved"

Response
"yeah Its Gods will but not everyone will be because its only Gods desire"

Quote
Isaiah 46:10  "All my desire I will do"

Responce
"Yeah, anyone can take two verses out of context to prove a point"


the law, works grace, faith,  on and on.



God is love,  thats sufficient for everyone.


uh uh, huh huh. uh uh.........      :laughing7:



Simple no nonsense belief is just not good enough for some.

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 11, 2009, 09:35:47 AM
In real life my wife says "If you find anyone dumb enough to run off with you - then they deserve you".  :dontknow: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

:OhNo: Must be related to me somehow.  That's all my relatives ever say about my prospects as well. :dontknow: Particularly my mother in centuries past. :eek:

Quote from: martincisneros on March 16, 2009, 12:52:17 PM

Quote from: firstborn888 on March 11, 2009, 09:35:47 AM
In real life my wife says "If you find anyone dumb enough to run off with you - then they deserve you".  :dontknow: :laughing7: :laughing7: :laughing7:

:OhNo: Must be related to me somehow.  That's all my relatives ever say about my prospects as well. :dontknow: Particularly my mother in centuries past. :eek:

Martin
Byron just being Modest, He recently released a Book ,Called " Byron the Babe Magnet and its curse", its a good read, as some may not see it being a  Curse :icon_flower: depends from which perspective we veiw it.

Ya Got feel for Byron Thou ,Nearly Eaten alive by all those single women folk at his old Church :icon_king:

:icon_flower:

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 14, 2009, 06:50:44 PM

God is love,  thats sufficient for everyone.


uh uh, huh huh. uh uh.........      :laughing7:

Simple no nonsense belief is just not good enough for some.

But God sometimes has to show tough love by eternally torturing billions in fire for eternity to show His love for them.  :dontknow:

Quote from: Tony N on March 16, 2009, 03:55:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 14, 2009, 06:50:44 PM

God is love,  thats sufficient for everyone.


uh uh, huh huh. uh uh.........      :laughing7:

Simple no nonsense belief is just not good enough for some.

But God sometimes has to show tough love by eternally torturing billions in fire for eternity to show His love for them.  :dontknow:

every million yrs we go and look at all the ""corpses"" being tormented as a reminder of the wonderfull thing of us choosing christ, and looking upon these idiots who were not smart enough to choose serve as a reminder how smart we were in this life to choose......... :sigh:

Quote from: chuckt on March 16, 2009, 04:01:06 PM

Quote from: Tony N on March 16, 2009, 03:55:50 PM

Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on March 14, 2009, 06:50:44 PM

God is love,  thats sufficient for everyone.


uh uh, huh huh. uh uh.........      :laughing7:

Simple no nonsense belief is just not good enough for some.

But God sometimes has to show tough love by eternally torturing billions in fire for eternity to show His love for them.  :dontknow:

every million yrs we go and look at all the ""corpses"" being tormented as a reminder of the wonderfull thing of us choosing christ, and looking upon these idiots who were not smart enough to choose serve as a reminder how smart we were in this life to choose......... :sigh:

GORY TO GOD THE FATHER

You guys crack me up.  :laughing7:

I heard a Doctor say that if one laughs a good belly laugh at least once a day it would add years to their life and cure many diseases. So I try to get on this forum everyday just to perform this exercise.   :LH: :LH: :laugh2: :laugh: :rolllol: :rolllol:

By the way claypot I agree with what you said in answer to my post.

CHB

Quote from: Taffy on March 16, 2009, 12:58:44 PM
Byron just being Modest, He recently released a Book ,Called " Byron the Babe Magnet and its curse", its a good read, as some may not see it being a  Curse :icon_flower: depends from which perspective we veiw it.

Ya Got feel for Byron Thou ,Nearly Eaten alive by all those single women folk at his old Church :icon_king:

:icon_flower:

Yo, B the babe magnet here just droppin' a line to all the cyber babes who be groovin' in the tent, yo...
:banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana: :banana:

Taff - "a merry heart doeth good like a medicine" - you got me rolling on the floor. 
U is 2 funny  :thumbsup: