Why is Cain not listed in Adams descendent?

[Molly]

Are you saying you don't believe the writer of Hebrews?

Priests don't give tithes, they receive tithes and give blessings in return.

Melchizedek also performs another priestly duty, he gives Abraham communion.


18 And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God.
--Gen 14

You don't think he could just have been expressing hospitality, and providing sustenance to a weary warrior and traveller?

What I am saying is that UR flies in the face of contemporary wisdom.  It gainsays what has been established Christian belief for ages.  People hang onto Hell and ET because they have been taught how to read the scripture in a way which conforms to the teachings and supposition of those who have gone before. Let not we, who have come to read The Bible in a clear way, become bogged down with suppositions and traditions of our own.  We've gone past the traditions which make hell necessary.  We did this by showing that the words which created hell, don't actually exist in the OT.  We got rid of hell by a clear, straight forward reading of the text.  We have gotten rid of those things which aren't supported by the OT text.  The thing is, IMO we are trying to hang onto those things which are equally unsupported, because they are the unsupported things in which we believe.

There is a lot of literature supporting hell out there.  We read past it.  Let's do the same for all unsupported readings, not just those with which we disagree.

And, maybe Jesus was just expressing hospitality at the last supper?

Let not we, who have come to read The Bible in a clear way, become bogged down with suppositions and traditions of our own.  We've gone past the traditions which make hell necessary.

I'm doing my best to read the Bible in a clear way.  When an immortal being pops up offering bread and wine and taking tithes and giving blessings my head goes to the logical place. 

I have no traditions.  No church I have ever been in has even mentioned Melchizedek.  I didn't see the name until I began reading the Bible for myself.  And, the church I grew up in never mentioned Hell, so I don't have the issue with it that others here have. [But, maybe I should say that I believe 'hell' exists, just not ET.]

That said, I would never reject something just because it is tradition.  Usually the church gets it right, IMO.

But, I remain confused.  Are you for some reason not believing the writer of Hebrews about Melchizedek? The writer of Hebrews says that Abraham gave a tithe to Melchizedek which is greater than the tithe given to the Levites and therefore Melchizedek was greater than the Levite priests--and, also, because the greater blesses the lesser.




4 Consider then how great this Melchizedek was. Even Abraham, the great patriarch of Israel, recognized this by giving him a tenth of what he had taken in battle. 5 Now the law of Moses required that the priests, who are descendants of Levi, must collect a tithe from the rest of the people of Israel,[a] who are also descendants of Abraham. 6 But Melchizedek, who was not a descendant of Levi, collected a tenth from Abraham. And Melchizedek placed a blessing upon Abraham, the one who had already received the promises of God. 7 And without question, the person who has the power to give a blessing is greater than the one who is blessed.

8 The priests who collect tithes are men who die, so Melchizedek is greater than they are, because we are told that he lives on. 9 In addition, we might even say that these Levites—the ones who collect the tithe—paid a tithe to Melchizedek when their ancestor Abraham paid a tithe to him. 10 For although Levi wasn't born yet, the seed from which he came was in Abraham's body when Melchizedek collected the tithe from him.

11 So if the priesthood of Levi, on which the law was based, could have achieved the perfection God intended, why did God need to establish a different priesthood, with a priest in the order of Melchizedek instead of the order of Levi and Aaron?

--Hebrews 7

[eaglesway]

Questions: Was God dealing with anyone directly before Abraham - other than those mentioned? Were there enough dealing directly with God that they would have a high priest? What about the rituals?  Weren't they given much later? What function did the melchizidek priest have without the ritual and ceremony that came later? Is it possible Melchizedek was "like unto the son of God" because Christ was not yet born and this was a christophany just like with the three then four in the furnace? If God wanted to teach Abraham the tithing principle how else would he have done it? :dontknow:

We are looking into an age in which we have a few sentences about thousands of years. Maybe Abraham already knew Melchizedek. Maybe they spent a month together, maybe an hour. Maybe Abraham was led by the spirit.

That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.
(Gal 3:14)

Receiving the promise of the Spirit is a primary focus of the New Covenant.

Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
(Joh 16:7-8)

He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water. (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(Joh 7:38-39)

For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God. For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. The Spirit itself bears witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
(Rom 8:14-17)

We who are primarily intellectually driven assume that the Spirit was inactive among the prophets and the patriarchs, but this is far from true. IMO in the OT the Holy Spirit was only given to a few(holy men moved of God). Maybe Abraham and Melchizedek. Enoch, Noah, David...... In the New Testament, EVERYONE who is born of the Spirit is like the wind(according to Jesus Jn 3:8) and every child of God has the PROMISE of the fountain of living water AVAILABLE to them. This is the GOAL AND THE MEANS by which all the promises are fulfilled- the overflow of the Spirit.

But we do not see this. Why? IMO because we are carnal(intellectually driven, tree of knowledge eaters), meaning(in the Spirit) immature. Immature as to the Spirit. Born again but under tutors(laws) because Christ is not yet formed in us(Gal 4:19  My little children, of whom I travail in birth again until Christ be formed in you).

IMO ritual had nothing to do with the Melchizedek priesthood. Especially if he was a tetragramton. I don't think he was a tetragramaton, because of the distinction set between Jesus and Melchy in Hebrews- but I am by no means certain about that. However Peter ways in on this as well, saying that Jesus was "foreknown" before the foundation of the world, but "manifest in these last times for you". I don't think Jesus was manifest in the flesh before He was born of a virgin.

[Molly]

I think something people sometimes forget is that Jesus Christ is forever.

to God be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (Ephesians 3.21)

They keep forgetting his time on this earth as the man, Jesus Christ, comes in the middle of the story.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.  [Rev 1]

They forget that his professed desire and command was to make his chosen people a nation of priests.

and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel." [Exodus 19:6]

Maybe they don't realize that these priests will be an immortal priesthood, based on an indestructible life.

Revelation 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Maybe they don't realize that those who stood at the base of Mt Sinai, the twelve tribes of Israel, were the original church, the ecclesia, the called out ones.

This is he, that was in the church [ecclesia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.  [Acts 7:38]

Maybe they don't understand that a mortal man cannot be an adequate priest to an immortal God.

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf. [Heb 7:5]

Maybe they are unaware that always in the background of this story is a loving God, working through the ages to achieve his purposes and desires, the salvation of all men.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Then when they meet the one called Melchizedek, they forget that only One could ever be called, King of Righteousness.

and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, King of Righteousness, and then he is also King of Salem, that is, King of Peace. [Heb 7:2]


16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [Jer 23:6]


"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb. 1:8)

[VineBranch]

VB, I took another look at your previous, previous post, and I think I misunderstood you.  You said, "Could it be, that the writer of Hebrews (maybe Paul, maybe not) was responding to the traditions and collected folk-wisdom which had accumulated in the roughly 14 hundred years since the recording of the event."  I think I missed the key phrase, "responding to," so I thought you meant the writer of Hebrews was using, not responding to, folk wisdom.  Sorry!

As for my statement that you so took issue with, "In case anyone is not connecting the dots, the 'underlying mathematical coding' is the very reason I accept any and all Biblical texts as absolute truth - at least the original autographs, you understand?", keep in mind that I believe the same God who inspired the plain text, also inspired the coding.  The plain text is sufficient for belief, with the aid of the Holy Spirit, but the coding clinches it.  If I failed to stress that, again, sorry!

Finally, you began that previous, previous post with this:
"Guys ... if this offends anyone, I lay myself prostrate before you and beg your forgiveness."

That's a good start, and can we finish on that note?  I don't want to react anymore... :friendstu:

Yes.  Laz, father, I am sorry.

I have offended you in trying to make a point.  No point is worth offending someone.  Only God is right; I have but opinions.  I see but in a glass darkly.  Yet I have offended you.  That is inexcusable!

I beg your forgiveness.  If you wish to impose a censure, I will submit to it.  I shall write on this subject here now more.

[ded2daworld]

Would that we all be as gracious as you are VineBranch :dsunny:

[micah7:9]

This what I know about Melchizedek
Gen 14:17  And the king of Sodom goeth out to meet him (after his turning back from the smiting of Chedorlaomer, and of the kings who are with him), unto the valley of Shaveh, which is the king's valley.
Gen 14:18  And Melchizedek king of Salem hath brought out bread and wine, and he is priest of God Most High;
Gen 14:19  and he blesseth him, and saith, `Blessed is Abram to God Most High, possessing heaven and earth;
Gen 14:20  and blessed is God Most High, who hath delivered thine adversaries into thy hand;' and he giveth to him a tenth of all.
Psa 110:4  Jehovah hath sworn, and doth not repent, `Thou art a priest to the age, According to the order of Melchizedek.'
BDB Definition:
Melchizedek = "my king is Sedek".....Strong's...king of right;
What else do I "know" about Melchizedek? Is he important? I say yes.

[Lazarus Short]

VB, of course you are forgiven!  We were twins in under-understanding and over-reacting.  You are valuable to our forum, and appreciated.  :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

I think something people sometimes forget is that Jesus Christ is forever.

to God be glory in the church and in Christ Jesus throughout all generations, forever and ever. Amen. (Ephesians 3.21)

They keep forgetting his time on this earth as the man, Jesus Christ, comes in the middle of the story.

8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.  [Rev 1]

They forget that his professed desire and command was to make his chosen people a nation of priests.

and you shall be to me a kingdom of priests and a holy nation. These are the words that you shall speak to the people of Israel." [Exodus 19:6]

Maybe they don't realize that these priests will be an immortal priesthood, based on an indestructible life.

Revelation 1:6 and has made us to be a kingdom and priests to serve his God and Father--to him be glory and power for ever and ever! Amen.

Maybe they don't realize that those who stood at the base of Mt Sinai, the twelve tribes of Israel, were the original church, the ecclesia, the called out ones.

This is he, that was in the church [ecclesia] in the wilderness with the angel which spake to him in the mount Sina, and with our fathers: who received the lively oracles to give unto us.  [Acts 7:38]

Maybe they don't understand that a mortal man cannot be an adequate priest to an immortal God.

Therefore he is able, once and forever, to save those who come to God through him. He lives forever to intercede with God on their behalf. [Heb 7:5]

Maybe they are unaware that always in the background of this story is a loving God, working through the ages to achieve his purposes and desires, the salvation of all men.

1 John 2:1 My dear children, I write this to you so that you will not sin. But if anybody does sin, we have one who speaks to the Father in our defense--Jesus Christ, the Righteous One.

Then when they meet the one called Melchizedek, they forget that only One could ever be called, King of Righteousness.

and to him Abraham apportioned a tenth part of everything. He is first, by translation of his name, King of Righteousness, and then he is also King of Salem, that is, King of Peace. [Heb 7:2]


16 In those days shall Judah be saved, and Jerusalem shall dwell safely: and this is the name wherewith she shall be called, THE LORD OUR RIGHTEOUSNESS. [Jer 23:6]


"But about the Son he says, "Your throne, O God, will last for ever and ever, and righteousness will be the scepter of your kingdom." (Heb. 1:8)

These are all excellent points and reasonings. My point has been that if we can't say, "This is what I see regarding Melchizedek"- and leave it at that, instead of teaching our perspective as if it is the only possibility regarding a mystery concerning which the writer felt the Hebrews were as yet unready to receive- maybe we are missing some other more important point. I think it is possible that there is more to the story than simply saying......Melchizedek was Jesus in some pre-birth incarnation.

For instance. If it was a tetragramaton of Jesus it had to be as an angel(the angel of the Lord), because Jesus could not possibly have been incarnated in the flesh previous to His virgin birth. IMO, that would undermine the entire gospel and about a dozem clear scriptures. Yet ask yourself...... Can an angel be a priest? The writer of Hebrews says "every priest chosen from among men"

For every high priest taken from among men is appointed on behalf of men in things pertaining to God, in order to offer both gifts and sacrifices for sins Heb 5:1



So also Christ glorified not himself to be made an high priest; but he(the Father) that said unto him, Thou art my Son, to day have I begotten thee. He 5:5

"Jesus' preisthood extends from His sonship as the only begotten of the Father. Our sonship extends from "adoption as ssons"- "born not of the will of the flesh nor of the will of man but (born) of God."

Unto which of the angels did He say, "Thou art my Son this day I have begotten thee".

When I ask questions and point out inconsistencies it is not to "invalidate" some elses view. If I think their view is incorrect I just say so. I just think their may be more to the story.

Some people don't understand that they don't have the answers to all questions and won't even look at some of them.Like...

1) what about what Peter said of Christ, "Who was foreknown from the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for you".

Was He foreknown and then manifested? or was He always manifested- as angels, tetragrammatons, burning bushes and such.

2) If the Melchezedek priesthood is an order, are there others in it? Why bother with the subterfuge in Hebrews if the answer is just....
"Melchizedek was Jesus"... because in my opinion there is nothing particularly challenging about this concept.

3) The "tetragrammaton" concept may be real, or it could just be a convenient construct for theologians who just don't want to accept that there are some things we have not yet been given to know. Personally, I would rather rely on Peter's clear statement that place to much weight on interpretation of obscure verses which the apostles themselves regarded as mysteries.


To me, the whole Melchizedek think is like the Genesis 6 thing. Good discussion, but makes for a poor debate- just not enough info given to establish empirical evidence.

[Molly]

1) what about what Peter said of Christ, "Who was foreknown from the foundation of the world but was manifested in these last times for you".

Was He foreknown and then manifested? or was He always manifested- as angels, tetragrammatons, burning bushes and such.

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers

--Heb 1:1


"divers manners"

G4187
πολυτρόπως
polutropōs
pol-oot-rop'-oce
Adverb from a compound of G4183 and G5158; in many ways, that is, variously as to method or form: - in divers manners.


So this implies that God talked to the OT saints in many different forms, but now speaks to us only in one form, the Son of God.



2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son   [Heb 1]

[VineBranch]

VB, of course you are forgiven!  We were twins in under-understanding and over-reacting.  You are valuable to our forum, and appreciated.  :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu: :friendstu:

You humble me sir!  Thank you.

[eaglesway]

God, who at sundry times and in divers manners spake in time past unto the fathers

--Heb 1:1


"divers manners"

G4187
πολυτρόπως
polutropōs
pol-oot-rop'-oce
Adverb from a compound of G4183 and G5158; in many ways, that is, variously as to method or form: - in divers manners.


So this implies that God talked to the OT saints in many different forms, but now speaks to us only in one form, the Son of God.



2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son   [Heb 1]

On this we are in total agreement :o)

[reFORMer]

2 Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son   [Heb 1]

In my estimation, the following is very important for an accurate understanding of the book of Hebrews.  More literally the above phrase is:  "...in the last of these days speaks to us in a Son.  This, "In a son" has no article.  In Greek there are not several articles, no "a" son.  There is either an article or there is none.  With an article, "The Son" would apply to the specific Son, Jesus of history.  Without the article, so the noun "son" is said to be "anarthous," as it is here, making it more generic.  Scripture is saying this culminating, never to be superseded word God is now speaking to us is, "Regarding the category of sonship," or, that He, "...is speaking to us 'son-wise.'"  Bringing many sons into glory, having a corporate, many-membered son, God's expression IN sonship is His ultimate revelation of Himself.  "Beloved, now we are called 'sons of God' and it does not yet appear what we shall be; but, we know that when He appears, we shall appear with Him in Glory!"

1 John 3^1-3, CLV:
1 Perceive what manner of love the Father has given us, that we may be called children of God! And we are! Therefore the world does not know us, for it did not know Him.
2 Beloved, now are we children of God, and it was not as yet manifested what we shall be. We are aware that, if He should be manifested, we shall be like Him, for we shall see Him according as He is.
3 And everyone who has this expectation in Him is purifying himself, according as He is pure.

[eaglesway]

Hath in these last days spoken unto us by his Son, whom he hath appointed heir of all things, by whom also he made the worlds; Who being the brightness of his glory, and the express image of his person, and upholding all things by the word of his power, when he had by himself purged our sins, sat down on the right hand of the Majesty on high;
(Heb 1:2-3)


Not sure I understand what you are saying. It appears to me that Only Jesus would qualify for "made the worlds"....and "upholding all things by the word of His power"......."when he had BY HIMSELF purged our sins".....

[reFORMer]

While the Tetragammatron is usually thought of as "the 4-letter name," many ancient rabbis used this appellation to refer to a superior being who's above the angels.  I'm not sure if some of you were referring to this or not.
____________________________________________

Abraham knew God as El-Shaddai, but not by His great name Yahweh.

Exodus 6^1-3:
[1] The Yahweh said to Moshe, "Now you shall see what I will do to Par`oh, for by a strong hand he shall let them go, and by a strong hand he shall drive them out of his land." [2] Elohim spoke to Moshe, and said to him, "I am the Yahweh; [3] and I appeared to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Ya`akov, as El Shaddai; but by my name the Yahweh I was not known to them.

Melchizedek was Priest of El-Elyon. 

Psalm 91¹: He who dwells in the secret place of Ha`Elyon Will rest in the shadow of Shaddai.

This secret and shadowy place where Shaddai and Elyon are made One is the place of the birthing of the sons.

Abraham and Melchizedek both understood the other to be of the same God.  They were in agreement.

From then til the next appearance of El-Elyon it was about 1,000 years. It was in David and His Psalms (110) we find Him.  It was another 1,000 years to the time of Jesus when The Most High (El-Elyon) overshadowed Mary so that Holy One born of her would be called the Son of God the Most High (El-Elyon.)  And the out pouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was from on High (Elyon.)

[Molly]

For instance. If it was a tetragramaton of Jesus it had to be as an angel(the angel of the Lord), because Jesus could not possibly have been incarnated in the flesh previous to His virgin birth. IMO, that would undermine the entire gospel and about a dozem clear scriptures. Yet ask yourself...... Can an angel be a priest? The writer of Hebrews says "every priest chosen from among men"

You say he could not possibly have been incarnated in flesh, but aren't there different kinds of flesh?  What's going on with this story?



And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

--Gen 18


Here there are 3 men and one of them is the Lord.   Abraham recognizes him, rushes out to meet him,  and prepares a feast, offers water to wash his feet, and talks with them while they eat.   They have come to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.   Then the two leave towards Sodom and the Lord stays behind and talks to Abraham.  In the next chapter, those two are called 'angels.'

Here is another place where Abraham meets Jesus in divers manners.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

--John 8:56

[Molly]

If we called Melchizedek by his English name, would we have any trouble recognizing him?  What if we said:


and the King of righteousness, the King of peace,  brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. [Gen 14:18]


Would everyone still say, 'who is that'?   I'm just asking.

Here we see Abraham bargaining with someone who is most assuredly the King of righteousness over saving the city for a few righteous men.





Abraham stood yet before the Lord.

23 And Abraham drew near, and said, Wilt thou also destroy the righteous with the wicked?

24 Peradventure there be fifty righteous within the city: wilt thou also destroy and not spare the place for the fifty righteous that are therein?

25 That be far from thee to do after this manner, to slay the righteous with the wicked: and that the righteous should be as the wicked, that be far from thee: Shall not the Judge of all the earth do right?

26 And the Lord said, If I find in Sodom fifty righteous within the city, then I will spare all the place for their sakes.

27 And Abraham answered and said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord, which am but dust and ashes:

28 Peradventure there shall lack five of the fifty righteous: wilt thou destroy all the city for lack of five? And he said, If I find there forty and five, I will not destroy it.

29 And he spake unto him yet again, and said, Peradventure there shall be forty found there. And he said, I will not do it for forty's sake.

30 And he said unto him, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak: Peradventure there shall thirty be found there. And he said, I will not do it, if I find thirty there.

31 And he said, Behold now, I have taken upon me to speak unto the Lord: Peradventure there shall be twenty found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for twenty's sake.

32 And he said, Oh let not the Lord be angry, and I will speak yet but this once: Peradventure ten shall be found there. And he said, I will not destroy it for ten's sake.

33 And the Lord went his way, as soon as he had left communing with Abraham: and Abraham returned unto his place.

--Gen 18



I can guarantee that he will give them justice quickly. But when the Son of Man comes, will he find faith on earth?" [Luke 18:8]

[Lazarus Short]

Molly, I noticed two interesting things in the verses you quoted in your last two posts. 

First, the "three men" ate bread, milk, butter, and veal.  Meat and milk at the same meal - a big violation of Kosher, but Kosher may be an imperfect image of God's Laws on food.

Second, this incident where Abraham runs out to the three men happened not too long after he had circumcised himself.  Ouch!  The man had fortitude.

[Molly]

Also milk and meat might have a spiritual interpretation, --good find!





10 Called of God an high priest after the order of Melchisedec.

11 Of whom we have many things to say, and hard to be uttered, seeing ye are dull of hearing.

12 For when for the time ye ought to be teachers, ye have need that one teach you again which be the first principles of the oracles of God; and are become such as have need of milk, and not of strong meat.

13 For every one that useth milk is unskilful in the word of righteousness: for he is a babe.

14 But strong meat belongeth to them that are of full age, even those who by reason of use have their senses exercised to discern both good and evil.

--Heb 5

[eaglesway]

While the Tetragammatron is usually thought of as "the 4-letter name," many ancient rabbis used this appellation to refer to a superior being who's above the angels.  I'm not sure if some of you were referring to this or not.
____________________________________________

Abraham knew God as El-Shaddai, but not by His great name Yahweh.

Exodus 6^1-3:
[1] The Yahweh said to Moshe, "Now you shall see what I will do to Par`oh, for by a strong hand he shall let them go, and by a strong hand he shall drive them out of his land." [2] Elohim spoke to Moshe, and said to him, "I am the Yahweh; [3] and I appeared to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Ya`akov, as El Shaddai; but by my name the Yahweh I was not known to them.

Melchizedek was Priest of El-Elyon. 

Psalm 91¹: He who dwells in the secret place of Ha`Elyon Will rest in the shadow of Shaddai.

This secret and shadowy place where Shaddai and Elyon are made One is the place of the birthing of the sons.

Abraham and Melchizedek both understood the other to be of the same God.  They were in agreement.

From then til the next appearance of El-Elyon it was about 1,000 years. It was in David and His Psalms (110) we find Him.  It was another 1,000 years to the time of Jesus when The Most High (El-Elyon) overshadowed Mary so that Holy One born of her would be called the Son of God the Most High (El-Elyon.)  And the out pouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was from on High (Elyon.)

Perhaps so. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was directly thought Jesus Christ, so I guess you are making El-Elyon out to be Jesus?

[eaglesway]

For instance. If it was a tetragramaton of Jesus it had to be as an angel(the angel of the Lord), because Jesus could not possibly have been incarnated in the flesh previous to His virgin birth. IMO, that would undermine the entire gospel and about a dozem clear scriptures. Yet ask yourself...... Can an angel be a priest? The writer of Hebrews says "every priest chosen from among men"

You say he could not possibly have been incarnated in flesh, but aren't there different kinds of flesh?  What's going on with this story?



And the Lord appeared unto him in the plains of Mamre: and he sat in the tent door in the heat of the day;

2 And he lift up his eyes and looked, and, lo, three men stood by him: and when he saw them, he ran to meet them from the tent door, and bowed himself toward the ground,

3 And said, My Lord, if now I have found favour in thy sight, pass not away, I pray thee, from thy servant:

4 Let a little water, I pray you, be fetched, and wash your feet, and rest yourselves under the tree:

5 And I will fetch a morsel of bread, and comfort ye your hearts; after that ye shall pass on: for therefore are ye come to your servant. And they said, So do, as thou hast said.

6 And Abraham hastened into the tent unto Sarah, and said, Make ready quickly three measures of fine meal, knead it, and make cakes upon the hearth.

7 And Abraham ran unto the herd, and fetcht a calf tender and good, and gave it unto a young man; and he hasted to dress it.

8 And he took butter, and milk, and the calf which he had dressed, and set it before them; and he stood by them under the tree, and they did eat.

--Gen 18


Here there are 3 men and one of them is the Lord.   Abraham recognizes him, rushes out to meet him,  and prepares a feast, offers water to wash his feet, and talks with them while they eat.   They have come to destroy Sodom and Gomorrah.   Then the two leave towards Sodom and the Lord stays behind and talks to Abraham.  In the next chapter, those two are called 'angels.'

Here is another place where Abraham meets Jesus in divers manners.


Your father Abraham rejoiced to see My day, and he saw it and was glad."

--John 8:56

I am just asking questions that require scriptural answers is all. I am not even claiming to have the answers. Peter says Jesus was foreknown from the foundation of the world, but was "manifest in theses last days for you". John says the word was God, the word was with God, ad the word was "MADE FLESH". When? When He came forth from the womb of Mary.

I am not saying you are wrong, but when "the Lord" manifests in the OT is isnt always Jesus. The "angel of the Lord" is not always Jesus. God spoke in the first person through the angel of the Lord that stood on Balaam's way.

Then the LORD(YHWH) opened the eyes of Balaam, and he saw the angel of the LORD standing in the way, and his sword drawn in his hand: and he bowed down his head, and fell flat on his face. And the angel of the LORD said unto him, Wherefore hast thou smitten thine ass these three times? behold, I went out to withstand thee, because thy way is perverse before me: (Num 22:31-32)

Was this angel of the Lord, Jesus? MAybe, but I don't think so.

He makes his angels/messengers winds(breaths).

The breath of the Lord. An angel/messenger is a breath, a composite thought, given personality and presence and personhood by the Lord. They are so open to the presence of YHWH, He comes right through. There are a few other examples of YHWH speaking through angels in first person but I don't hav the time or the inclination to look them up at this moment.

SO, was the "person" among the 3 persons Abraham called "my Lord" really Jesus? Maybe. Maybe not.

When John was met by a "messenger" of the Lord he fell down to worship...

And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
(Rev 22:8-9)

We think we know A LOT Of STUFF. I am not so sure about what we think we know :o)

[Molly]

SO, was the "person" among the 3 persons Abraham called "my Lord" really Jesus? Maybe. Maybe not.

The reason I think it has to be Jesus is

1) Abraham bows down to him and he doesn't correct Abraham like the angel in Rev does

2) It is at this time that he gives the promise to Abraham that he will bear a son

3) He is able to make life and death decisions about whether or not to destroy the cities

4) Abraham recognizes him and calls him Lord.  Angels are not called Lord.

5) Abraham calls him 'the Judge of the whole earth.'

[reFORMer]

While the Tetragammatron is usually thought of as "the 4-letter name," many ancient rabbis used this appellation to refer to a superior being who's above the angels.  I'm not sure if some of you were referring to this or not.
____________________________________________

Abraham knew God as El-Shaddai, but not by His great name Yahweh.

Exodus 6^1-3:
[1] The Yahweh said to Moshe, "Now you shall see what I will do to Par`oh, for by a strong hand he shall let them go, and by a strong hand he shall drive them out of his land." [2] Elohim spoke to Moshe, and said to him, "I am the Yahweh; [3] and I appeared to Avraham, to Yitzchak, and to Ya`akov, as El Shaddai; but by my name the Yahweh I was not known to them.

Melchizedek was Priest of El-Elyon. 

Psalm 91¹: He who dwells in the secret place of Ha`Elyon Will rest in the shadow of Shaddai.

This secret and shadowy place where Shaddai and Elyon are made One is the place of the birthing of the sons.

Abraham and Melchizedek both understood the other to be of the same God.  They were in agreement.

From then til the next appearance of El-Elyon it was about 1,000 years. It was in David and His Psalms (110) we find Him.  It was another 1,000 years to the time of Jesus when The Most High (El-Elyon) overshadowed Mary so that Holy One born of her would be called the Son of God the Most High (El-Elyon.)  And the out pouring of the Spirit on the Day of Pentecost was from on High (Elyon.)

Perhaps so. The outpouring of the Holy Spirit was directly thought Jesus Christ, so I guess you are making El-Elyon out to be Jesus?

Isaiah (12:2) says, "Yahweh is become my Jesus (Yeshuah)."  That the power of the Highest (ie., El-Elyon) overshadowed Mary to cause her pregnancy makes El-Elyon the Father of Jesus.  Jesus is Yahweh manifested as flesh.

[eaglesway]

So Jesus impregnated Mary to bring forth Jesus?

Behold, God is my salvation(y'shuah); I will trust, and not be afraid: for the LORD JEHOVAH is my strength and my song; he also is become my salvation.
(Isa 12:2)

As to whether this was meant as a proper name, who knows? It occurs 77 times in the OT as salvation/deliverance.

Gen 49:18  I have waited for thy salvation,(H3444y'shuah) O LORD.

[reFORMer]

So Jesus impregnated Mary to bring forth Jesus?

And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God. (Luke 1³⁵)

In this passage of scripture "The Highest" is El-Elyon.  The usual translation for El-Elyon is "The Most High."  This is who made Mary pregnant.  The child she had was Yahweh manifesting as flesh.  He was called, "Yah-shuah."

[reFORMer]

As I understand it, the family in the heavens is Elohim.  The father is El-Elyon.  The mother is El-Shaddai.  The son is Yahweh.  Spirit is feminine in Hebew and Greek, so it seems to be rather self defining in the Deity.

This is practically the briefest mention I can make of these things and still say something acceptable, though much additional information and many qualifying remarks need to be made; but, because it's past my bedtime and I have to extricate myself from cyber space,...brevity!