Why is Cain not listed in Adams descendent?

[sheila]

     wow!!! :thumbsup:

[VineBranch]

To me, a gardner grows stuff for himself, family and friends to enjoy. No money involved except cost of the gardening and time.
A farmer is a gardner on a huge scale and sells leftover produce to earn a living.

and VB yes I do think there was a christophany before the gospel. Since God is out of time, and Christ was slain before the foundation of the world, it's possible he had a body when God decided to make man in the "Image of the invisible God"
God the Father is in unapproachable light for a human to live, so when Jacob wrestled with God, I believe it was Jesus.

Cool (my niece said that if I say cool I'll look cool ... I'm tempted to take her to an optometrist), that totally belays the notion that the gospels are the singular origin of the Christophany.  Now, this would presuppose that the Resurrection wasn't necessary as the actual cause of the Christophany.  This is so cool, I never get to talk to anyone about this.

Do you think God walking in the garden was the pre-existent logos?
Do you think the figure to whom Abraham spoke in Genesis 18 was Christ?
Do you think the fourth man in Daniel 3:25 was Christ?

I know in the world of UR it ultimately doesn't matter.  But I think all those examples were Christ.  I don't think Melchizedek was a Christophany though.  If  he was, we get more into Christ as avatar, and that is a kettle of fish into which I would prefer to never again dip my net.  But some of my Hindu friends think it's fine.

Neat, thanks ded

[Lazarus Short]

Do you think God walking in the garden was the pre-existent logos?
Do you think the figure to whom Abraham spoke in Genesis 18 was Christ?
Do you think the fourth man in Daniel 3:25 was Christ?

I don't think Melchizedek was a Christophany though. 

Since the Father dwells in inapproachable light, God in the garden, visiting Abram/Abraham, and in the furnace, yes, must have been Jesus/the Christ/the Logos.

My dad did some date crunching and other study, and his best guess was that Melchizedek was Shem.

[eaglesway]

Avatarism will be the trumpet of the anti-Christ.

[Molly]

Melchizedek only appears once in the Old Testament in person form.  He gives Abraham communion.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. [Gen 14]


Abraham gives him a tithe.  Later, Paul will say that Abraham tithed for all the Levites who were in his loins with this tithe.  He points out that this means Melchizedek is a higher priest than the Levites are because the lesser tithes to the greater and the greater blesses the lesser.


5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

--Heb 7



If this isn't Jesus, I don't know who he is. lol



3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.  Heb 7

[ded2daworld]

belated answer to VineB,
I think...God walking in the Garden was the pre-existent logos
Abraham spoke face to face in Chap 18 of Genesis was Christ
There is no question in my mind the 4th man in the flames at Daniel was Jesus - we even had the pagan confirmation the 4th man looked like the son of God.

Melchizedek is another story. On the one hand, he is named which never happens elsewhere. However this name is a title prince/king of peace which is also one of Jesus' titles. It says he was a priest of the most high God. Since the hebrew/Jewish system started with Abraham as called out a people for his own, Melchizedek had to have been the only "priest of the one true God" which omitting angels that are never mentioned as priests, leaves Christ.
I'm not certain but as Molly said, if it is not Christ, there is no one else it could be that we know of. Paul said only Jesus descended from heaven and Melchizedek was certainly no common man.

[Lazarus Short]

"Melchizedek" is a title, and we do not know the man's name.  He was a priest of the Most High God, but then was not Jethro the high priest of Midian?  I believe that men fell into idolatry gradually after the flood, and a few priests of the True God remained.  We can see traces of true worship and belief in many cultures, at least as far as China.  The establishment of Israel as a nation was God's answer to the general apostasy.  Following my father's research, I think Melchizedek could have been Shem, and the time factors indicate that they could have been the same person, but we have no way of knowing for sure this side of the veil.

[sheila]

...just how I see it........Melchezedek had to do with the greater Preisthood...the seed of the promise... As such

  it precedes and supercedes all other covenants.  the Lamb slain before the founding of the world/covenant....

    Bread and wine offered by Melchezedek=communion with Heaven in

regard to the promised seed.It is an eternal covenant. He is without Father or Mother in the human sense;

for it is a covenant of the eternal spirit of God..who had no beginning or has no end.God Himself is the source

of it. Michael means 'who is like God"? Thus bears testimony to the promised seed who is the express image of the

Father..to such an extent that if you have seen the Son,you have seen the Father.

   Thus Michael standing up and all the people whose names are written are delivered...signifies the promise

of the Holy seed quickening spirit of life eternal.  This seed Blesses all nations'the desire of the nations'

  this seed delivers from evil..'crushes' the head of the serpent.  The long awaited deliverance of Adam's

   projency through the promised seed spoken in the garden of God.   This promise of God supercedes the

  law covenant[fulfills in spirit] and...the tokogae expierence.   indeed the spirit of God/Son was and has been active

throughout the scriptures; ever testifying and working out/toward the fulfillment of the eternal promise of God.


   Michael standing up is synomynous with God standing up..for his name is 'who is like God?"


    Therefore wait for me,declares the Lord,for the day I WILL STAND UP TO TESTIFY...I have decided to

assemble the nations,to gather the kingdoms and to pour out my wrath on them-all my fierce anger

the whole world will be consumed by the fire of my jealous anger. Then will I purify the lips of the peoples

  that all of them may call on the name of the Lord and serve him shoulder to shoulder.


   It was appropriate that Melchezedek offer bread and wine/communion to Abraham...thus showing

   Abraham to be blessed of God by covenant of promise.  the Word of God come to Abram shortly after

  communion with bread/wine from Melchezedek.and  after this the 'word of God' come to Abram and

covenanted promised seed with him.

    it is a preisthood of spirit..a heavenly preisthood......a house of communion and prayer in the spirit for all

men..it is of the kingdom of heaven..and not of this earth.A spirit has not flesh and blood..but the

  Word of God did come in flesh. Flesh and blood can not inherit..but He poured out His spirit on all flesh



   

[VineBranch]

Avatarism will be the trumpet of the anti-Christ.

Preach it brother!!

[VineBranch]

Melchizedek only appears once in the Old Testament in person form.  He gives Abraham communion.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. [Gen 14]


Abraham gives him a tithe.  Later, Paul will say that Abraham tithed for all the Levites who were in his loins with this tithe.  He points out that this means Melchizedek is a higher priest than the Levites are because the lesser tithes to the greater and the greater blesses the lesser.


5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

--Heb 7



If this isn't Jesus, I don't know who he is. lol



3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.  Heb 7

I think we are being shown that the priesthood to come is not one of Law (Levite), but one of eternal life.  I have problems with Christ being an example of Himself unless He says it directly.  In the same chapter it says:  "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
(Heb 7:14-16)

I have no problem with the other (coming) priest being Christ, but for it to be 'another', IMO it cannot be the same thing.  I have no problem with Mel being a metaphor for Christ, but to take it further would, again IMO, violate the spirit of fair reading.

[ded2daworld]

Good point VB.We tread dangerously when we read into what may or may not be there :thumbsup:

[reFORMer]

It's a little strange that people sift through prophets of old to find the identity of some spiritually great person rather than accept such a one as himself.  Like, "who are the 2 witnesses" discussion:  other than what Jesus said the 2 witnesses are (the Father's miracles attesting to the words of the Son) or their being Joshua and Elisha typologically, how about a couple of original people out of the billions alive, not someone else come back to us?  Another example to press this point would be of the 3 messengers of Rv 14 that seem to have planet-wide ministries.  As the 1st messenger pertains to God's world-wide judgement, the 2nd the fall of Babylon and the 3rd the mark of the beast, why would they not be people for whom these are their times, the time on history's stage in which these judgements occur?  They serve God in their own generation, the children of the era in which they are anointed to serve, the hour of God's judging, the fall of Babylon and the mark.

Why would it be controversial to think Melchizedek is Melchizedek?  The old Rabbi's say he's Seth.  Even though Seth died about 1,000 years before Abraham.  It is recorded in Gn 5^6-8.  Death is used in 5 ways in the N.T.  I'm not sure how to discount scripture saying Set died; but, if a satisfactory explanation could be found, you could argue His entrance into immortality, a result of being born of God even in the physical, exempts his identity in Adam. Strictly speaking, since he has no mother or father (Hb 7³,), and we know who Seth's parents are, he can't be Seth.  Calling Melchizedek a Christophany doesn't exactly work either since he is said to be, "Picturing the Son of God." (Hb 7³, CLV)  The Son of God is not a picture of the Son of God.  "Made like unto the Son of God" is how it is said in the KJV.  He can't be like something he is, or made in the similitude of some other thing which he already is.

Speaking of Melchizedek we find:  "...of whom it is witnessed that he liveth" is how the KJV puts Hb 7⁸.  CLV says:  "...one of whom it is attested that he is living."  The meaning from the Greek has the writer of Hebrews saying of himself that he is receiving as reliable witness the testimony that the same Melchizedek of 2,000 years previous to Jesus' is presently living at the time of the writing of Hebrews.  Coming another 2,000 years into the future to our own time, I believe he is still interceding somewhere in the city of Jerusalem.  While a few years ago it was said by the Chief of Police there that they had at least 11 Melchizedeks, that is not quite what is meant here in our discussion.  Whether or not one of them is the real thing probably wouldn't lead to his discovery by mere searching anyway.

The closer we are to God, the more unique we are, and, simultaneously, the more we have in common with other people.  The unmistakeable personalities of Moses, Elijah, Isaiah, Jesus, Paul, or John are quite different from one another.  Yet, they are identified with by almost anyone who reads their stories.  As those with prominent healing ministries in the the 2th Century operated in ways very different from one another, or each vessel through whom God's inspiration flowed to write scripture are discernible individuals with unique modes of expression, so those of whom Jesus says, "Happen upon the resurrection" show distinctive aspects of incorruptible deathlessness emphasized in their manifestation.

[eaglesway]

Beautiful  :cloud9:

[Molly]

Melchizedek only appears once in the Old Testament in person form.  He gives Abraham communion.

And Melchizedek king of Salem brought forth bread and wine: and he was the priest of the most high God. [Gen 14]


Abraham gives him a tithe.  Later, Paul will say that Abraham tithed for all the Levites who were in his loins with this tithe.  He points out that this means Melchizedek is a higher priest than the Levites are because the lesser tithes to the greater and the greater blesses the lesser.


5 And verily they that are of the sons of Levi, who receive the office of the priesthood, have a commandment to take tithes of the people according to the law, that is, of their brethren, though they come out of the loins of Abraham:

6 But he whose descent is not counted from them received tithes of Abraham, and blessed him that had the promises.

7 And without all contradiction the less is blessed of the better.

--Heb 7



If this isn't Jesus, I don't know who he is. lol



3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.  Heb 7

I think we are being shown that the priesthood to come is not one of Law (Levite), but one of eternal life.  I have problems with Christ being an example of Himself unless He says it directly.  In the same chapter it says:  "For it is evident that our Lord sprang out of Juda; of which tribe Moses spake nothing concerning priesthood. And it is yet far more evident: for that after the similitude of Melchisedec there ariseth another priest, Who is made, not after the law of a carnal commandment, but after the power of an endless life.
(Heb 7:14-16)

I have no problem with the other (coming) priest being Christ, but for it to be 'another', IMO it cannot be the same thing.  I have no problem with Mel being a metaphor for Christ, but to take it further would, again IMO, violate the spirit of fair reading.

well, let's put it this way,  Jesus has pre-eminence in all things.  If he is a high priest after the order of Melchizedek, this is not an office he would take that would make him lower than Melchizedek.   We too are/will be the new priesthood, based not on lineage but on an indestructible life.   But, Jesus will always be over us, as the first and the last.

For this reason, the first one with an indestructible life would have to be Jesus, by definition.



No one can take my life from me. I sacrifice it voluntarily. For I have the authority to lay it down when I want to and also to take it up again. For this is what my Father has commanded." [Jn 10:18]


PS Yes Jesus is from the tribe of Judah, making him king as well as priest, as Melchizedek also, the King of Salem, the King of Peace.


"Salem"

H8004
שׁלם
shâlêm
shaw-lame'
The same as H8003; peaceful; Shalem, an early name of Jerusalem: - Salem.

[Molly]

The Son of God is not a picture of the Son of God. "Made like unto the Son of God" is how it is said in the KJV. He can't be like something he is, or made in the similitude of some other thing which he already is.

3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

Heb 7


I believe it is written like this for our benefit.   We, too, will look like this one day.  Obviously, I do not believe Jesus is created.  I believe he is the Creator.  But, we are created.   Likewise, all the sons of God are created, with the exception of the unique [only begotten] Son of God.

The description of the One in the fire with the three Hebrews is written in a similar way.  He is 'like the Son of God.'   Don't we consider that to be Jesus, rather than some random immortal wandering around earth who decided to jump into the fire with them?


23 And these three men, Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego, fell down bound into the midst of the burning fiery furnace.

24 Then Nebuchadnezzar the king was astonished, and rose up in haste, and spake, and said unto his counsellors, Did not we cast three men bound into the midst of the fire? They answered and said unto the king, True, O king.

25 He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

--Dan 3

[ded2daworld]

IMO,  Since Melchizedek was without father or mother, no beginning or end of days, he is therefore uncreated. The only one uncreated (without beginning or end) was God. The Father never appears in the flesh, the Holy Spirit never appears in the flesh. I believe we are looking at God in the flesh, Jesus Christ. "Salem"  was just short for Jerusalem "King of Salem" king of the Jews with the city of Jeru-salem...and Jesus, the "Prince of Peace" also for the King of Peace. Nobody is called the duke, earl or count of peace since only the royal family is called King and Prince (the son who is heir to all)
Just ramblin thoughts  :Peace2: :2c:

[reFORMer]

I believe we are entering into uncreated life.  When we are born of the Spirit of God that is by what our spirits are quickened.  Our experience of "newness of life" is an experience without beginning or end.  "Christ IN us [is] the hope of glory."  We IN Christ are the glory revealed.  In the Millennial Age of Tabernacles the young immortals will be trained as we enter on into God.  This advancing Image of God is Christ of Whom we are members.  We will continue progressing into our revealing through us of Him Whose Temple we are.

[eaglesway]

I believe we are entering into uncreated life.  When we are born of the Spirit of God that is by what our spirits are quickened.  Our experience of "newness of life" is an experience without beginning or end.  "Christ IN us [is] the hope of glory."  We IN Christ are the glory revealed.  In the Millennial Age of Tabernacles the young immortals will be trained as we enter on into God.  This advancing Image of God is Christ of Whom we are members.  We will continue progressing into our revealing through us of Him Whose Temple we are.

Heb 6:20  where Jesus has entered as a forerunner for us, having become a high priest forever according to the order of Melchizedek.

A forerunner opening the way for many sons unto glory....everyone of them learning by, and perfected by, the sufferings they endure as His disciples.

If we suffer with Him we will also reign with Him

The Spirit Himself testifies with our spirit that we are children of God, and if children, heirs also, heirs of God and fellow heirs with Christ, if indeed we suffer with Him so that we may also be glorified with Him. For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed to us. For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God.
(Rom 8:16-19)

[sheila]

oh yeah,and what if we find out 'you have been with me from the beginning" and before Abraham was ,I AM?

[eaglesway]

1 Jn 3:2 Beloved, now we are children of God, and it has not appeared as yet what we will be. We know that when He appears, we will be like Him, because we will see Him just as He is. 3 And everyone who has this hope fixed on Him purifies himself, just as He is pure.

[lomarah]

oh yeah,and what if we find out 'you have been with me from the beginning" and before Abraham was ,I AM?

It's interesting you say that, because as I was writing a song a couple of weeks ago (the one I posted on Harmony's hi thread), when it came to the Holy Spirit's part He sort of told me what to write (that doesn't sound exactly right but again, hard to put into words, you know what I mean anyhow), and I wrote "we are one my love". And I went back to that afterward and tried to change it because it didn't sound right to me, but He wouldn't let me, He kept saying, "One with Him from the foundation of the world". And then later on some reading was made available to me (that I wasn't searching for) that confirmed it. I knew it was Him confirming it to me and after that I was ok with it lol. (Sometimes He needs to pound things into me before I'll believe it wholeheartedly.  :mblush: )

[sheila]

yep, He's a GREAT TEACHER!!!!!

[eaglesway]

1 Peter 1:20
For He was foreknown before the foundation of the world, but has appeared(manifested) in these last times for the sake of you.

1 Pet. 1:1,2 Peter, an apostle of Jesus Christ, to the strangers scattered throughout Pontus, Galatia, Cappadocia, Asia, and Bithynia, Elect according to the foreknowledge of God the Father, through sanctification of the Spirit, unto obedience and sprinkling of the blood of Jesus Christ: Grace unto you, and peace, be multiplied.

[redhotmagma]

We are loved with the same love given to the Firstborn Son.

"The glory which You have given Me I have given to them, that they may be one, just as We are one; 23I in them and You in Me, that they may be perfected in unity, so that the world may know that You sent Me, and loved them, even as You have loved Me. 24"Father, I desire that they also, whom You have given Me, be with Me where I am, so that they may see My glory which You have given Me, for You loved Me before the foundation of the world.

      25"O righteous Father, although the world has not known You, yet I have known You; and these have known that You sent Me; 26and I have made Your name known to them, and will make it known, so that the love with which You loved Me may be in them, and I in them."

IMO we were one in Him before the foundation of the world

The male and female in the image of God in Gen 1 is speaking to this.

[sheila]

y ep...what GOD HAS JOINED TOGATHER...let no man put asunder[seperate ]