Quote taken from another forum about being unable to love an endless-hell god, I'm afraid I cannot and will never be able to
Quote
That should have read, "I have no problem with "loving" a God who can send some or most of humanity to an eternal hell." Being terrified, suffering, depression, even coming unhinged over the loss of salvation of others demonstrates a profound lack of faith of God, more specifically a lack of faith in His power to be able to administer perfect justice to every individual. When a person trusts that they, their family members, their friends, their acquaintances and strangers will received a reward or punishment perfectly commensurate and balanced with their deeds here in this life, then that person is at total peace with himself, with God and with the world. It's faith in the perfect justice of God that brings peace, and that kind of faith is just as important in God's eyes as faith in Jesus for the forgiveness of one's sins. Many ask silly questions like "How can you be happy in heaven as you look down and see your loved ones burning in a fiery hell." Doesn't Mark 12:24 make abundantly clear the fact that in the afterlife their entire perspective of loved ones will have changed--that earthly mothers and fathers, brothers and sisters will no longer be recognized as such in heaven; that we'll all be equal members of the family of God without titles or distinctions? Faith in God's perfect justice removes all tendencies, inclinations, to worry about the fate of mankind, leaving all that in the very capable hands of God.
It was worrying about the fate of others that got me into this predicament in the first place and I could never agree with what was quoted above even if it were 100% true, the best I could do is to come in fear to try and save my own miserable neck, but I could never ever truly love him
How could I forget someone I cared about on earth, how could I even be happy with someone I didn't like on earth being subjected to something so terrible
What do these people actually think happens, they harp on about free will, yet the above quote makes it seem as if they will be truly and utterly stepfordized clones without any feelings of empathy whatsoever
What a freaking nightmare :sigh:
Quotethe fact that in the afterlife their entire perspective of loved ones will have changed
Changed but not is a good way it seems.
On earth most, including non-Christians, condemn torture.
But perfected Christians in heaven actually enjoy it.
This helped me to understand a bit more...
Tank Rumblings
Several years ago I was questioning why I am so insensitive sometimes; the Lord interupted my ponderings saying, "Remeber, Sherman, I made you a tank and tanks don't feel much." Wow, what a liberating concept; I'm ok in my limitations, even perceived limitations! Thankfully though, the Lord has put several "radio operators" in my life, people who are very sensitive to His Spirit; they help me stay on course. I hope my ponderings, my Tank Rumblings, will bless you.
Wednesday, May 6, 2009
The Lake Burning with Fire and Brimstone
Over the last several months I've been researching the doctrine called the "Restoration of All Things" or "Christian Universalism". It is, at its most basic, the belief that because of the sacrifice of Christ, all of humanity is ultimately saved and will ultimately come into relationship and life forever with Him. There are several scriptures that seem to indicate this is true. However, in order to "balance" what I had been studying on this, I decided to research scripture concerning Hell and Judgment. In my research though, I've come across information that is challenging my traditional Evangelical beliefs concerning the essence and purpose of punishment in the afterlife!
According to the doctrine that I have been raised to believe, the traditional Protestant/Evangelical doctrine, Hell is a place of "endless torture" for those who are not saved. However, I've run across information that seems to indicate that the traditional doctrine of Hell is incorrect, that the afterlife does not include a place of "endless torture".
As mentioned in the previous post, Jesus used the word GEHENNA in speaking of punishment in the afterlife. But the Rabbis of Jesus' day taught that GEHENNA was a place of purification of and payment for sin that only lasted as long as was needed for the healing and the reformation of the human soul. After a person was purified in GEHENNA, he was admitted to Paradise; but the English word Hell carries the connotation of "endless torture", so it is not a good interpretation of GEHENNA. Rather, the best interpretation of the word GEHENNA, I believe, is Purgatory.
But of course, GEHENNA is only one word used in scripture which references punishment in the afterlife. In my research of Hell, Judgment, and related words and scriptures, another very interesting bit of information came to my attention. It is the word "Brimstone", THEION in Greek. Notice how similar THEION is to THEIOS (divine). THEION, brimstone, actually means "divine incense, because burning brimstone was regarded as having power to purify and to ward off disease" (Enhanced Strong's Lexicon).
Thayer's Lexicon, Friberg's Analytical Lexicon, and Liddell and Scott Greek-English Lexicon all agree that THEION is related to purification and healing. And Liddell and Scott notes that the verb THEIOO actually means "to hallow, to make divine, or to dedicate to a god." Thus, based upon the actual Greek usage of THEION, brimstone carries the connotation of purification and healing, and even signifies being made holy, set apart, dedicated to God; it does NOT connote "endless torture".
Brimstone - fire from heaven, lightening, volcanic bombs, and other geologic forms of fire give off the smell of burning sulfur. Sodom and Gomorrah were destroyed by fire and brimstone, fire from heaven. Geologist Frederick Clapp theorized that Sodom's divine judgmental fire was likely a petroleum-based substance called bitumen, similar to asphalt, that was forced out of the earth through a fault-line, ignited by a spark or surface fire, and then fell to earth as a burning fiery mass bringing the judgment of God.
Furthermore, as noted by Strong's Lexicon, brimstone, sulfur was burnt as incense meant to ward off disease. Even today many medicines are sulfur-based. Thus brimstone is dynamically connected to healing.
Something else that I've never noticed before about the "lake burning with fire and brimstone" is that it is actually in the "presence" of God, not separated from the presence of God. Rev. 14:10 says that those who receive the mark of the beast shall "drink of the wine of the wrath of God" and "shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels and in the presence of the Lamb."
When I ran across this information about brimstone the first thing that came to mind was when Isaiah stood before the Lord and was overwhelmed by the sin that God's presence revealed in him (Isaiah 6). In the presence of the Lord and His angels, Isaiah cried, "Woe is me, for I am undone! Because I am a man of unclean lips, and I dwell in the midst of a people of unclean lips!" In response to this confession an angel took a live coal (brimstone?) from the altar, put it to Isaiah's lips and purified him! Could it be that this is a picture of the burning purification of the Lord? I like Peterson's translation of this passage:
In the year that King Uzziah died, I saw the Master sitting on a throne—high, exalted!—and the train of his robes filled the Temple. Angel-seraphs hovered above him, each with six wings. With two wings they covered their faces, with two their feet, and with two they flew. And they called back and forth one to the other,
Holy, Holy, Holy is God-of-the-Angel-Armies. His bright glory fills the whole earth.
The foundations trembled at the sound of the angel voices, and then the whole house filled with smoke. I said,
"Doom! It's Doomsday! I'm as good as dead!Every word I've ever spoken is tainted— blasphemous even!And the people I live with talk the same way, using words that corrupt and desecrate.And here I've looked God in the face! The King! God-of-the-Angel-Armies!"
Then one of the angel-seraphs flew to me. He held a live coal that he had taken with tongs from the altar. He touched my mouth with the coal and said,
Look. This coal has touched your lips. Gone your guilt, your sins wiped out."
Thus considering that 1) brimstone implies purification and healing (not endless torture), 2) the "lake burning with fire and brimstone" is in the presence of God, and 3) God Himself is a Consuming Fire, the "lake burning with fire and brimstone could be, should be interpreted as "the Volcanic Lake of God's Consuming-Purifying-Healing Presence"!
Could it be that the traditional Evangelical doctrine of the afterlife for the wicked being endless fiery torture, unending punishment, Hell, be wrong? Could it be that the fiery punishment of the afterlife spoken of in the Bible is for our healing and purification, even for those with the mark of the beast? Frankly, the more I study what is actually written in scripture, the more I believe the answer to be yes! "Look. This coal has touched your lips. Gone your guilt, your sins wiped out!"
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 03:59:09 PM
Quotethe fact that in the afterlife their entire perspective of loved ones will have changed
Changed but not is a good way it seems.
On earth most, including non-Christians, condemn torture.
But perfected Christians in heaven actually enjoy it.
:cloud9: ROFLOL.......WW, you have such a way with condensing the points to their ultimate intentions. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on October 01, 2009, 10:53:12 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 03:59:09 PM
Quotethe fact that in the afterlife their entire perspective of loved ones will have changed
Changed but not is a good way it seems.
On earth most, including non-Christians, condemn torture.
But perfected Christians in heaven actually enjoy it.
:cloud9: ROFLOL.......WW, you have such a way with condensing the points to their ultimate intentions. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Actually it isn't ROFLOL. I have a shallow to none relation with God so I just give an eartly example.
I rather have people claim I have no father (atheism) that my father is a child molester (ET).
Somehow I think to know for sure that I would have the same feelings when I read ET stuff when I finally have found God.
Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 03:29:18 PMIt was worrying about the fate of others
Shadow I want you to reread quote 100x
Then reread the following verse 100x
James 2:8 ... Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
And then come back and explain me why exactly you are not a Christian because follow James 2:8
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 11:12:49 PM
Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 03:29:18 PMIt was worrying about the fate of others
Shadow I want you to reread quote 100x
Then reread the following verse 100x
James 2:8 ... Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself
And then come back and explain me why exactly you are not a Christian because follow James 2:8
Yes.
Shadow... I love you sis.
Quote from: Shadow on October 01, 2009, 03:29:18 PM
So glad my heartfelt post made some of you ROTFLOL, dont worry I won't be bothering you anymore
:cloud9: I am totally confused. I wrote ROFLOL pertaining to WW's comments about what ET'ers believe, pertaining to once they get to heaven, they'll be ok with everybody else roasting, as if that mindset was perfection. If this is what you are referring to, it was not in any way directed at you, and I apologize if I was not clear enough. Blessings....
Something is amiss.
This thread has TWO different titles going to it!
Yeah I'm sure the thread was about an ET website article.
Thanks for all the PM,s some of you have sent me on here and for the responses to my threads, I will reply to all the Pm's I got tomorrow, please forgive me I've been ill and have been feeling really down in the dumps the last few days, I have restored the topics to what they were before
Thanks for not saying goodbye and good riddence :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Shadow on October 02, 2009, 12:25:40 AMplease forgive me
Sorry Shadow.... I can't for give you.
Unless ofcourse you first explain me what I should forgive :laughing7:
Quotegot tomorrow
:thumbsup: deal :thumbsup:
Hope you're feeling better soon... :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Quote from: sparrow on October 02, 2009, 12:35:12 AM
Hope you're feeling better soon... :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
:gthumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 01, 2009, 03:59:09 PM
Quotethe fact that in the afterlife their entire perspective of loved ones will have changed
Changed but not is a good way it seems.
On earth most, including non-Christians, condemn torture.
But perfected Christians in heaven actually enjoy it.
Wanted to add 2 verses.
Jeremiah 19:5 They have built also the high places of Baal,
to burn their sons with fire for burnt offerings unto Baal, which I commanded not, nor spake it, neither came it into my mind: Jeremiah 32:35 And they built the high places of Baal, which are in the valley of the son of Hinnom, to cause their sons and their daughters to pass through the fire unto Molech; which I commanded them not, neither came it into my mind, that they should do this abomination, to cause Judah to sin.
==> IMO the red words should be read: it's against My personality.
Malachi 3:6 For I am the LORD, I change not; therefore ye sons of Jacob are not consumed.
==> What God hates during life He hates after life.
That was actually 3 verses :winkgrin:
Anywayz my point is that ETism is incompatible with those verses.