Tentmaker Forum

I often read Jesus done away all laws etc. But that simply can't be true.
That for example would mean the 10 commandments are no longer in force.
I really doubt it's ok to worship false gods now. Or to murder.
Maybe Jesus done away with all laws of Moses?
What about the rules for the many Jewish feasts? IMO they are more than party time. They show a very strong pattern. I doubt Father/Son would abolish that pattern.
So what exactly changed in regard to laws/rules/customs?

Some different views I've seen, some of them I've shared to various degrees at various times;

we are still under every law in the OT

we are under the 10 commandments, + certain various laws that we understand to fit our point of view

Gentiles were never under any laws - the law was for the Jews

Jesus fulfilled all the laws, therefor when one is a spiritually reborn believer, his "laws" are inacted spiritually within us, as the Spirit leads us,  guides us into our personal knowledge of good and evil/right and wrong;  i.e., "written on our hearts of flesh".

I personally currently am probably a blend of the last 2.  I don't celebrate any certain "holy days", as I don't see them as necessary for me as I seek and desire a "heart" relationship.  Apostle Paul apparently verifies that freedom, but also doesn't rule out that some may in fact keep certain days.  He said one does not esteem a day above another, while some do - but that either shouldn't judge the other, regarding whether we keep a day or not.

To me, it may fall under the "led by the Spirit, written on our hearts" - the Lord may lead one to do something, while another's not led that direction.  But I personally don't believe any "leading" will be in direct opposition to the scriptures.  That's how I understand it.

The people of God are the Jews and still are I guess.
Didn't Jesus make us, the gentiles, also part of the people of God?
So in a way made us Jewish????
I know certain rules/festivals are only for Jews living in Israel. But some are for all Jews around the world.

Jesus fulfilled the law imo means He kept them to the extreme. Not that he abolished them.
BTW His interpretation of the laws was different from the rest of society.
For example He rescued an animal on Sabbath day.

"led by the Spirit, written on our hearts"
That would mean many sets of laws. You may be led to observe Sabbath on Monday while your wife observes it on Saturday.
You eat a pond of pork each day and your wife is even scared to look at it.
Isn't that a bit odd?

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2010, 09:05:53 AM
"led by the Spirit, written on our hearts"
That would mean many sets of laws. You may be led to observe Sabbath on Monday while your wife observes it on Saturday.
You eat a pond of pork each day and your wife is even scared to look at it.
Isn't that a bit odd?

That may be a bit of an extreme example, but still in the ballpark.  I'd say it more like this;  I might feel the freedom to eat pork, while her conscience would cndem her for eating pork.  That could be a matter of immaturity/maturity on either of our part, that could change as we "grow in grace and knowledge".  Actually, getting to the scriptures on that matter, God through Peter said "notthing is unclean".  Jesus said it's not what enters into a man that makes him unclean, but what comes out of his heart.

A true-to-life example sort of regarding certain days with my wife and I;  I felt extremely and clearly called away from being a part of a denomination.  She has not felt that.  She does not feel condemned.  If I went and rejoined that "church", my conscience would condemn me.  So she goes there on Sunday, still a member (though she believes in UR).  I sometimes go with her, but yet Sunday's not an extremely "special" day to me.  So I didn't always feel that way, He led me there as we went along.  She's been changing too, growing.  What do they say, when we stop growing, we start dying?   :bigGrin:

Also, I'm not saying it's easy to explain, or to always know His leading.  We're kind of getting into a real pertinent example of what I say sometimes, "not every voice we hear is the Lord" - sometimes we hear our own voice (imagination), or worse.       Discernment.  Prayer.  Making sure things line up with the scriptures.  IMO, sometimes we miss it, sometimes we "get it".   :2c:

I think they were probably very busy all the time with all the little details of dietary laws, holy day laws, sacrifice this, wash that, follow a time constraint--and they must have felt--just guessing--a terrible weight of duty to get it all right.

Whereas, Jesus says, My yoke is easy and my burden in light.

He is the Lord of the Sabbath.


Matthew 11:28
Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Hi;
A true-to-life example sort of regarding certain days with my wife and I;  I felt extremely and clearly called away from being a part of a denomination.  She has not felt that.  She does not feel condemned.  If I went and rejoined that "church", my conscience would condemn me.  So she goes there on Sunday, still a member (though she believes in UR).  I sometimes go with her, but yet Sunday's not an extremely "special" day to me.
[/quote]
I can identify with what you are saying here. My wife still goes to church but I do not go at all. I read and study the word and rely on Christ and the Father to speak through the Word.

Anyway... In Gal 3 ;2 " Did you receive the Spirit by the works of the law or by hearing with faith?"
vs 5 " So then does God supply you with the Spirit and work miracles among you by the works of the law or by the hearing with faith? "
vs 11 " Now it is clear that NO ONE is justified before God by the law, because the righteous will live by faith. [ Hab 2;4]
vs 13 " Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the law by becoming a curse for us, because it is written: cursed is everyone hung on a tree.[[Dt 21;23]
vs 14 " The purpose was the blessing of Abraham would come to the gentiles in Christ Jesus, so that we would receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."
vs 24 " The law, then was our guardian until Christ, so that we could be justified by faith. But since the faith has come, we are NO LONGER under a guardian, for you are all sons of God through faith in Christ Jesus."

Gal 5;;5,6  " For by the Spirit we eagerly wait for the hope of righteousness from faith. For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision or uncircumcision accomplishes anything; what matters is faith working through love."

* That may sound easy, but Christ lays the new commandent to love God with all our heart and to love our neighbour as ourself. Sounds easy. But looking at 1 cor 13 there is the illustration that if we really love people then the law would not be required because we would not steal or hurt them if we love them. There would be no thought of revenge because we have forgiven them as Christ forgave us. And loving the Father with all our heart does not leave any room for any bitterness, malice, greed etc.

Hope that helps.

I think those are very good thoughts, Ross.  That scripture passage is right on.  Thanks.

I agree Molly.  I made the statement that I'm after a "heart relationship".

Along with my legalistic upbringing, and my own OCD, I can be heck on ritual and compulsion.  That can be a real burden that doesn't match "my yoke is easy, my burden is light".  It's something I've spent a lifetime learning, so to speak, walking in grace and the liberty of Jesus ("whom the Son makes free is free indeed").  So I for one certainly hope I don't have to go back to ritualistic observance.  I seek freedom in the Lord, as far as worshiping Him and talking to Him in my heart and spirit - walking with Him, not feeling I have to go to a certain place on certain days and perform certain functions to please or know Him.

Still learning this relationship thing instead of "performance"....

But if God leads an individual to observe a certain day or law, etc., I can't judge them.  He may be doing something in their life, even for a period of time, that's between Him and them.   :dontknow:

Hi;
This is indeed what Paul talks about with the flesh vs the Spirit.
Gal 5;18 " But if you are lead by the Spirit, you are not under the law."

Also Phil 3;3 " For we are the circumcision, the ones who serve by the Spirit of God, boast in Christ Jesus, and do not put confidence in the flesh."vs 8,9 " More than that, I also consider everything to be a loss in view of the surpassing value of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord. Because of Him I have suffered the loss of all things and consider them filth, so that I may gain Christ and be found in Him, NOT HAVING A RIGHTEOUSNESS OF MY OWN FROM THE LAW, but one that is through faith in Christ- the righteousness from God based on Faith."

Satan will try to make you feel that you have broken some law and need to face the consequences. Walking with Christ reveals that the price has been paid in FULL by Him. And this is indeed an ongoing process of learning the truth that sets us free from the law of sin and death.

May He bless you brother like never before.

Very good word, thank you.   :HeartThrob:

No wonder it is called good news!! :bgdance:

Hi;
Interesting that we get to know personal friends as we go through experiences together. There are times we do not talk but get on with what is happening. Then there are times of reflecting and sharing what was learnt. Then there are times when we may not see each other physically but are together in Spirit where the power of the influence of each party affects choices of behavior or decision.
This is just a hint of what being IN CHRIST is like. He knows our thoughts and walks in us and around us in all things. Although not visible to the naked eye He is there in Spirit.
His love for us displays incredible patience as He is training us how to live. And this is only a part of the things that we will see in full when we are raised to be like Him.
Eph 3;20,21 " Now to Him who is able to do above the things which we ask or conceive, according to the power which does energise itself within us, to Him be the glory in the assembly and in Christ Jesus to ALL the generations of the ages of ages. Amen!"

Eph 5;1 "Therefore you become imitators of God as beloved children and walk in love, even as Christ has also loved you and delivered Himself up in your behalf, "

To imitate God we need to know how He works. That seems to be all part of this training process we are in. So great and complete is the work of Christ. That we are even aware of this process let alone coming to see the magnitude of the glorious future is such a reason to praise Him and to look forward to the nexy/coming age with hope and expectation..

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2010, 09:05:53 AM
The people of God are the Jews and still are I guess.
Didn't Jesus make us, the gentiles, also part of the people of God?
So in a way made us Jewish????
I know certain rules/festivals are only for Jews living in Israel. But some are for all Jews around the world.

Jesus fulfilled the law imo means He kept them to the extreme. Not that he abolished them.
BTW His interpretation of the laws was different from the rest of society.
For example He rescued an animal on Sabbath day.

"led by the Spirit, written on our hearts"
That would mean many sets of laws. You may be led to observe Sabbath on Monday while your wife observes it on Saturday.
You eat a pond of pork each day and your wife is even scared to look at it.
Isn't that a bit odd?

:cloud9: IMO, yes He did make us "Jewish", we were grafted into that tree, they were not grafted into "us". The NT was Helenized (His words to me, I had to look it up), so that it lost it's pertinence and revelence to the gentile reader.

The 3 feasts were commanded to be observed FOREVER; forever is not, whenever the OT covenant "stops". This general omission of all things Jewish, is part of what infuriates and keeps the Jews from "finding" Him, in that they know that God cannot lie, and has not forgotten about them, and will fulfill His Word. The "Christian" covenant that exists in Christendom bears little resemblance to what they expect, because we became a "gentile" religion, instead of a Jewish one fulfilled with gentiles brought in.

I know from my short time dealing with Jewish anti-missionaries online, the Orthodox Jews ignore Christianity, EXCEPT the Messianic movement because that one got their attention BECAUSE of the adoption and in many cases implementation of the feasts into their walk, as well as other things relevant to the Jewish faith. Makes me wonder if "gentile" Christianity is not the branch boasting itself against the tree, personally.

What was supposed to change, but didn't in most, was that the laws were now to be understood thru the heart and mind of the Spirit that gave them, as opposed to being ONLY outward manifestations of faith.

Now let the stoning begin..... :laughing7: Blessings....

The Law is a mirror, but it is Grace which makes us look pretty.

QuoteThe 3 feasts were commanded to be observed FOREVER; forever is not, whenever the OT covenant "stops".

We do stilll celebrate them after a fashion--Easter, Orthodox churches celebrate Pentecoste, and Thanksgiving for Tabernacles.

Interesting, how that worked out.

QuoteThis general omission of all things Jewish, is part of what infuriates and keeps the Jews from "finding" Him, in that they know that God cannot lie, and has not forgotten about them, and will fulfill His Word.

If they read their own Torah, maybe they'd understand who Jesus is.  He fulfills all the feasts.

!  They have "fallen from grace" and "Christ profits them nothing," consequently, "they are debtors to do the WHOLE LAW"  ( Gal. 5:2-6)!

FREE TO LIVE—LAW AND GRACE


              Can you worship God while you eat bacon?  Not under the Old Testament law because the law of Moses says pigs are unclean (Deut. 14.8 ).  But most Christians keep some part of the law, if not about pork, then something else.  They are sometimes called "yardstick Christians."  To them hair has to be so long, the sleeve a certain length or the hemline on higher than a set place on the leg.  In one group a person cannot wear a bow, in another ties are outlawed altogether.  Some places it is all right to have pierced ears, others, it is not.  In one church a woman is out of place if she does not wear makeup, in another she is out of place if she does, In one church it is proper to wear a wedding ring, in another it is not.  Some places you should dress fashionably, and other places very plain.  Some congregations are even taught to question your salvation if you miss Sunday School.  This is not a complaint against churches or groups that teach or believe any of these things.  The purpose of this study is to identify them and put them in their proper place.      So, do not get up-tight if we mention something you strongly believe in.   Colossians and Ephesians were written to tell us that we should not go back to the law.  Judaizers (those who mix law and grace) want to put Christians back under Moses.  Circumcision was the main New Testament argument, but it could be many other things besides circumcision that they want you to do nowadays because they want you to conform to Moses and their standards.  We are presently under Jesus, and we are to pay attention to His words, not Moses`.  Moses` law will put us under condemnation and death.   (Matt. 16:17-18 –The Foundation –Revelation)

                   Now here is a catch tho, If you desire to leave the law—you are wrong, The law was given for your protection and you need it.  That is, you even need to keep the letter of the law Until the Holy Spirit leads you out of it.
                Sometimes when an immature Christian learns that there is freedom from the law of Moses through(Dia) Jesus Christ, they commits improper or immoral acts that he has been wanting to do but has refrained from because of the restrictions of the law.  We cannot use our freedom from the law when we are motivated by our fleshly desire.  "Unto the pure all things are pure; but unto them that are defiled and unbelieving nothing is pure; but even their mind and conscience is defiled"  (Titus 1:15).  "For brethren, ye have been called unto liberty; only use not liberty for an occasion to the flesh, but by love serve one another (Gal. 5:13). "But take heed lest by any means the liberty of yours become a stumbling block to them that are weak". (1 Cor 8:9).
                               LEAVE THE OLD LAW
                   God gave us another example of the fact that He wants us to leave the law of Moses and start paying attention to His grace and the love of Jesus Christ in Matthew 17.  We find that Jesus took Peter, James and John apart to a high mountain.  A voice from out of a cloud said, " This (Jesus) is my beloved Son in whom I am well pleased; hear ye HIM", not Moses (the law) or Elias ( Elijah the prophets).
       "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law (of Moses); ye are fallen from grace" ( Gal.. 5:4)
THIEVES AND ROBBERS
                   Jesus said, "All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers (John 10:8)."
"All that ever came before me" includes the law of Moses and the prophecy of Elijah.  The law and the prophets did not lead the people to God.  Rather they were a type and a shadow (or a schoolmaster) to point people to Jesus Christ.  Because people believed they could get to God through (Moses) and prophets (Elijah) they were robber.  People ended up in condemnation and death.  Lets leave condemnation and death and enter the love and freedom of Jesus Christ.


ELEMENTS SHALL MELT
                   We recently ran across a strange development in Bible Study.  It changes our whole concept about what is going to be burned up. 
     Most of us have been taught that sometime in the future the whole world is going to be destroyed by fire.  In studying the "elements" that are going to melt with fervent heat we found the word for "elements" in the Greek is STOICHEION.
    In every case where the word STOICHEION is used in the New Testament it represents the law of Moses. ( Element in Gal. 4:3,9 and II Peter 3:10, 12—Rudiment in Col. 2:8,20—Principle in Heb. 5:12)  ( sin & death- FCT.Eby – 28:1 – Sin free)
    The Conclusion of this study is that God's supernatural fire will melt (break up) the law of Moses which brings death.  The thing that is keeping us in this present world (age) and preventing us from entering the new world ( age ) ---wherein dwelleth righteousness—is the law of Moses (II peter 3:5-13).

Please read Carefully.
         A confirming idea is in 1Cor 15:53-56.  The grave is the product of death.  The sting of death is sin.  The strength of sin is the LAW.  Conversely, when the law is fulfilled there is no more sin.  When there is no sin there is no sting of death.   
          The conclusion of this is that one step toward entering immortality is entering the law of Jesus by being LED by the Holy Spirit, not the law of Moses. (Matt. 16:17-18 ) too.
         "Behold I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed.  In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump for the trumpet shall sound and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed, [ I Believe this happens when one becomes (Awakened by God )

                                                 NEW LAWS
         "For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory?  "The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the LAW" (1 Cor. 15:52-56 ).  Notice that the LAW is the strength of sin. Moses' Law    To them who be patient continuance in well doing, seek for glory and honor and immortality, (God will render) eternal life (Rom. 2:7 ).   The bible teaches us to seek immortality ( the state of NOT DYING) by being led by the Holy Spirit out of the Law of Moses into the law of Jesus Christ which is Love.

SPY ON YOUR LIBERTY
                   Paul wrote about some false brothers who crept into his meetings unawares.  They came in to spy out the liberty which was being practiced in Paul's meetings. Paul said that the purpose of the men was to bring Paul's group into bondage of Moses` Law (Gal. 2:4 )even though they were Christians.    Notice that Paul clearly states he was not subject to those men – not even for an hour.  In other words, while Paul was in charge of the meetings, group, city, etc...he felt HE should be led by the Holy Spirit.  Those men had no right to sneak in to put his people under the bondage of the law --  they were free in Jesus Christ to be led by the Holy Spirit.   However, when Paul went up to the (Born again--Jewish Circumised Law Christians, Peter's Gospel)  at Jerusalem, where they were still under the law, then he acted in a completely opposite way.  Paul recognized the TEMPORAL authority the church leaders had over him because he was on their ground.  So he did what the local hierarchy (Acts 21:23 ) told him to do even though he was warned be the Holy Spirit( Acts 21:4 ) not to go back to the Jewish Christians at Jerusalem (back to the law).

               Thus, we see that he acted in two different ways.  In Galicia he absolutely was not subject to the Christian Jews but in Jerusalem he was.   To bring this where we live now  if you are on your own ground, doing your own thing, being led by the Holy Spirit, then keep it up!  If someone comes in to tell you your way is wrong and that your people would be closer to God and More pleasing to Him by keeping some sort of law, commandment, tradition, or such like—you do not have to obey them.  It will not hurt to listen to them, if you continue to be led by the Holy Spirit, not them.  But if you leave Your location and go to "Theirs," you better keep their rules, remembering that you are finding favor with them, not God ( Rom. 14 ).   There are still some people around who want to put us back under Moses` law.  As far as I can see--- Jesus Christ did fulfill the O.T. laws of God and gave us simply and only four N.T. commandments, pg.134..  The study of those four simple commandments has been developed in this report. ( The book, Free to Live ), it is not an error to teach that Jesus said He came to fulfill the law.  Col. 2:20 told us that submission to ordinances is nothing but a show of wisdom and does not do a thing to check the flesh.  Jesus forgave my trespasses by blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against me (Col 2:14.)  As God gives me grace I don't think I'll let any Man judge me in regard to meat, drink, respect of holiday, new moon, or sabbath ( Col. 2:16 ) I believe that I am Justified by the faith of  Jesus Christ,  NOT MY FAITH, His faith, and not by Works of The LAW.  "Knowing that a man is not justified by works of the law, but by the faith of Him, Jesus Christ, even we have believed in Jesus Christ that we might be Justified by the faith of JC and not by the works of the law: for by the works of the law shall no man be justified" (Gal. 2:16 )  "If righteousness came by the law then Christ is dead in vain"  (Gal. 2:21 ). See J.C's Faith or Yours.
          "Stand fast therefore in the liberty wherewith Christ hath made us free and be not entangled again with the yoke of bondage"[ LAW ]  ( Gal. 5:1 )  "Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by  law; ye are fallen from grace" Gal 5:4  "For all the law is fulfilled in one word, even this, Thou  shalt love thy neighbor as thyself" ( Gal. 5:14 ).  Wherefore the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith, (Who's faith but His Not Ours) But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.  Gal. 2:16  ;  K.J.V. ONLY   & Gal. 3:24 K.J.V. ONLY.

                        GOD DOES NOT CHANGE--METHODS DO
                   
                   God does not change but His methods of dealing with us do change as we mature.  As an example, the law did not come until four hundred and thirty years after Abraham.  Abraham was a man of faith and God rewarded him for it.  But he sure was not a man of law.  If he would have been alive about 450 years later---when people were judged by the law---he would probably have been stoned for the way he treated his wife and lied to the kings.  But remember, there was no law and consequently no sin.  You see, Abraham represented an age or period of time before there was any law.
           Therefore God dealt with him on the basis of his faith.  He could not be judged by the law because there was no law.   
     In reference to the fact that there is no sin if there is no law ---  also connect the thought that overcoming the law will remove us from the curse of death, 1 Cor. 15:55-58 says, " O death, where is thy sting?  O grave, where is thy victory?  The sting of death is sin; and the strength of sin is the law.   But thanks be to God, which giveth us the victory through{ Dia. } our Lord Jesus Christ."  This indicates that death comes because of sin and sin comes because of the law.  Conversely, it might be interpreted that the law brings sin and sin brings death.  Remembering that we are to seek immortality  (Rom.2:7)   
Perhaps a clue to entering the state of immortality is to eliminate the cause of death which is sin and law.  Since Jesus fulfilled the law and brought us four simple new ones( laws ), we may find the process of entering immortality will involve our keeping Jesus' four commandments and not allowing our minds to condemn ourselves when we are led by the Holy Spirit to do things that are against the commandments of Moses. 
                   I am presently convinced there is no authority for teaching the idea that the O.T. is to be divided into sections and that some of those sections are not to be followed and that some are to be used as law even now.  Some have said there is a difference between the commands and the rituals.  But I disagree.  I cannot find any scriptural difference.  To get a little technical, the TORAH is the law and it includes the total of everything concerning it.  The TSAVAH is the prime commandment and it includes the rituals and lots of other statutes too---  including the Ten Commandments ( words ).  The MISHPAT is the judgment.  The CHOQ is the statute and decree.  The MITSVAH is from the TSAVAH and is a commandment.  The DABAR is a "word" and is used in the Ten Commandments ( word ) sometimes called DECALOG  ( or the 10 words ).

               The EDAH  is a testimony or witness and comes from the idea to duplicate.  The CHUQQAH    is a statute or ordinance or decreed limit.  These are eight O.T. words that are used interchangeably in our translations.  Concerning the O.T. law; there is just no way to decide which ones to keep and which to throw out.  In checking out the article which pleads with us to return to the law, I noticed that the author quoted some of the better commands ( TSAVAH ) such as apply to health, government and military ideas  --  and I agree   --  but there was no mention of the commands  ( TSAVAH ) which are impossible to keep in OUR PRESENT SOCIETY.  For example, give dead animal meat to a stranger and sell to alien but don't eat it yourself ( Deut. 14:21 ).  I wouldn't want to give or sell bad meat to anyone.  Also, offer no blemished sacrifice (Deut. 17:1 ). Well, I don't intend to offer any sacrifice at all --  blemished or not.  How about  --  stone the wicked person (Deut. 17:5 ) ?
           I don't believe Jesus wants me to stone anybody..  ? The commandments say if I take a beautiful women captive in a battle I am to leave her alone for a month before having sexual intercourse with her ( Deut. 21:10 ) When  I was in the U. S. Navy in the Korean War I never intended to keep that commandment by having sexual intercourse with any captive woman  --  and my wife Agreed !  How about the command that the son of your hated wife is to receive the greater inheritance if born before the son of your beloved wife ?  The only way I know how to keep that command is to engage in polygamy and I do not intend to keep that command.  In fact, my government would prosecute me, my society would persecute me and MY WIFE WOULD EXECUTE ME if I did keep it !  The command ( TSAVAH ) is to kill your stubborn, rebellious child.  I'm glad that my parents didn't keep that one!  The command ( TSAVAH ) says that a rapist MUST marry his victim ( any age ) if she is not engaged to another man ( Deut. 22:28 ).  I find it inconceivable that anyone would want to go back to the commandments of the O. T.

I can't be sure, but I think you might be misunderstanding the purpose of The Law to begin with.

No mis understanding....

What is The Law's purpose?

Quote from: Novus-Ordo-Seclorum7 link=topic=8794  Wherefore the lawsize=24pt]was a schoolmaste[/size]r to bring us to Christ that we might be justified by Faith, (Who's faith????? but His !!!!! Not Ours) Or yours

                                                                                            The Law of the Spirit of Life in Christ Jesus (our new nature) supersedes the Law of Sin and Death, our old carnal nature.  Every life has a law.  Adam, our carnal nature, has a life law that constantly brings us into sin and death.  Just like a bird sings and flies, and a dog barks, because it is their Law of Life.  You cannot defy a law unless it is superseded by a higher law.  Take the law of gravity, for instance.  You can't not defy the law of gravity.  If you get on a building and jump off, the law of gravity is going to pull you down.
          You cannot live out of Adam without the law of Sin and Death pulling you down.  I don't care how strong your desires for God are, I don't care how bad you want Adam to be conformed into Christ----he cannot be!  The law of his life will continually pull you down when he tries to be godly.  It was designed that way, because in the Tabernacles realm there is no place for carnality, none!  Even in the Old testament, it said, "No man can see God and Live...                  ( Ex.33:20).  The moment that Christ begins to appear within you, you see that Adam is dead.  And when you realize that, then you understand the scriptures that say, "And then shall that wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of His coming (2 Th. 2:8 )  He destroys that Law of Sin and Death that is continually pulling you down and not allowing you to operate in the realm of spirit. 
The Law of the Spirit of His life raises you above the law of sin and death.  The only way you can defy the law of gravity is to get into a higher law, the law of lift.  An airplane can defy the law of gravity.  When you begin to enter into Tabernacles, the law of His Life Supersedes the Law of Sin and Death.
The Concordant New Testament Version

As I thought.  Alas.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2010, 08:31:53 AM
I often read Jesus done away all laws etc. But that simply can't be true.
That for example would mean the 10 commandments are no longer in force.
I really doubt it's ok to worship false gods now. Or to murder.
Maybe Jesus done away with all laws of Moses?
What about the rules for the many Jewish feasts? IMO they are more than party time. They show a very strong pattern. I doubt Father/Son would abolish that pattern.
So what exactly changed in regard to laws/rules/customs?

Some people feel the Law can never be changed, even to the crossing of a "t" or the dotting of an "i."  Those who believe this will be shocked at what the Bible says. The Law of God can be changed and parts abolished if God so desires. This is Progressive Revelation in action.

To show that the Law of God can be changed, or even abolished, it is necessary to see how historically the Law of God started, developed, and finally became the Old Covenant. We need to see how the Law was changed and altered from time to time from Adam to Noah. It later changed: from Noah to Abraham, again from Abraham to Moses, and from Moses to Samuel, then from Samuel to Ezekiel the prophet, and from Ezekiel to John the Baptist, and finally to Christ before His crucifixion.

The former Law of God changed quite often, with additions and/or deletions, throughout the various periods associated with the men just mentioned.

Let's just review the vast differences between the Patriarchal and Mosaic Legal Systems:

• Under the Abrahamic covenant, God allowed his people to offer sacrifices anywhere they pleased (Genesis 12:7, 35:1; Job 1:5). Moses changed this law by commanding only the family of Aaron to attend to the sacred rites (Exodus 40:1–16) and those sacrifices could only be offered on the altar in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 12:13–14).

• Abraham planted a grove (or sacred tree) in Beersheba (Genesis 21:33), but under Moses the use of groves became prohibited (Exodus 34:14; 2 Chronicles 14:3; Isaiah 17:8).

• Jacob set up a pillar (Genesis 28:18), but this was later forbidden by Moses (Deuteronomy 16:22, margin).

• God said in the time of Noah: "Every moving thing [i.e., all animals] that lives shall be meat for you; even as the green herb have I given you all things" (Genesis 9:3), but with Moses only the beasts mentioned in Leviticus chapter 11 were allowed or disallowed.

• There were no official feast days commanded in the time of Abraham, but with Moses, ordained festivals became required periods for attendance by all Israelite males (Leviticus 23).

• There was no commanded Tithing at first. Tithing was not a law in the patriarchal period

• None of the patriarchs wore phylacteries (at least we have no record of such), but with Moses their use was commanded (Numbers 15:37–41).

• The land did not have to rest every 7th year under the patriarchs (Genesis 41:34–35), but with Moses, the land rest was commanded (Leviticus 25:1–7).

• Abraham married his half-sister with God's full approval (Genesis 20:12), but this became illegal in the time of Moses (Leviticus 20:17).

• Abraham was confederate with his Canaanite neighbors (Genesis 14:13), but no leagues with the Canaanites were allowed in the dispensation of Moses. Indeed, the Canaanites were to be exterminated (Deuteronomy 20:17–18).

• There was also no commanded Sabbath law in the patriarchal period. However, in the time of Moses the Sabbath was first introduced as a law for Israelites to obey (Exodus 20:8; Nehemiah 9:14; Ezekiel 20:12) with stringent requirements that changed the very character of the 7th day of the week. Moses had now emerged on the scene and a profound change in religious essentials had come into existence for Israel.

The differences between the religious system of the patriarchs and that of Moses were dramatic. If a religious Israelite after the time of Moses could have been transported back to Abraham's time and witnessed Abraham (not knowing who he was) performing his religious duties, he would have called him an unconverted heathen. And though it is made clear in the Scriptures that God knew Abraham "obeyed my voice and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws" (Genesis 26:5), those laws (the Law of God in Abraham's time) were very different from those later laws commanded to Moses and to the Israelites at Mount Sinai.

Indeed, for Abraham's first 99 years of life he was not circumcised,

And later
• he built altars anywhere he pleased,
• he raised up groves,
• he offered no lamb at Passover,
• he kept no weekly Sabbath,
• he attended no holy feasts,
• he wore no phylacteries,
• he married his half-sister,
• kept no land sabbath [that is, no Sabbatical Years], and
of all things...
• he was allied with the Canaanites.

What God did in the time of Moses was to rescind the religious requirements of the Patriarchal period in favor of stricter laws ordained in the time of Moses. The two religious systems were so completely different that if one were to mix the teachings together, utter contradiction and confusion would result. There is no compatibility at all between the two systems.

In the time of Samuel, in order to give new laws that God designed to govern the kingdom of Saul and then David, Samuel opened the Book of the Law and added sections to it that pertained to the Kingdom of Israel then being developed.
"Then Samuel told the people the manner of the kingdom, and wrote it in a [the] book, and laid it up before the Lord." 1 Samuel 10:25

Samuel actually wrote the new laws about the Kingdom (now found in Deuteronomy 17:14–20) and placed them in the Book of the Law of God which was in the Sanctuary (Deuteronomy 31:9, 17:18).

Indeed, Samuel had an example of another righteous person doing the same thing. Joshua also added new teachings to the Law. "Joshua wrote these words in the book of the law of God" (Joshua 24:26). As a matter of fact, when Ezra the priest in the 5th century before Christ finally canonized the Old Testament, he not only added all the later books to the Old Testament canon [which then represented the Law of God], but Ezra went through the first five books of Moses and made a number of additions to the Law where he thought it necessary. This editing by Ezra, and the addition of biblical books, was under the approbation and command of Almighty God and Christ Jesus agreed with it. ( 2Ti 3:16)

"For the Law was given by Moses, but grace and truth came by Jesus Christ." John 1:17

Pay attention were about to get deep!

The Christ while teaching in the flesh was placing the capstone on the Mosaic system of living by the Law. The Christ was prophesied to be a "second Moses" with greater power than Moses to be a legislator . Christ changed the Law of Moses drastically and had complete authority to do so. He had the backing of God the Father to do so. Look at the legislation giving Christ such authority. The Christ had the power to change any law He pleased.

"The Lord your God will raise up unto you a Prophet from the midst of you, of your brethren, like unto me; unto him you shall hearken; According to all that you desired of the Lord your God in Horeb in the day of the assembly, saying, 'Let me not hear again the voice of the Lord my God, neither let me see this great fire any more, that I die not.' And the Lord said unto me, They have well spoken that which they have spoken. I will raise them up a Prophet from among their brethren, like unto you, and will put my words in his mouth; and he shall speak unto them all that I shall command him. And it shall come to pass, that whosoever will not hearken unto my words which he shall speak in my name, I will require it of him." Deuteronomy 18:15–19

"The Lord is well pleased for his righteousness' sake; he (Jesus) [the Messiah] will magnify the law, and make it honourable." Isaiah 42:21

Now read Matthew with the idea that God's Law is now Magnified!
Mat 5:21 "You have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT MURDER' and 'Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.'
Mat 5:22 "But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, 'You good-for-nothing,' shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, 'You fool,' shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 "Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 "Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 "Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent. 27 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL NOT COMMIT ADULTERY'; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 "If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into geenna. 30 "If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into geenna. 31 "It was said, 'WHOEVER SENDS HIS WIFE AWAY, LET HIM GIVE HER A CERTIFICATE OF DIVORCE'; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery. 33 "Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, 'YOU SHALL NOT MAKE FALSE VOWS, BUT SHALL FULFILL YOUR VOWS TO THE LORD.' 34 "But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is THE CITY OF THE GREAT KING. 36 "Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 "But let your statement be, 'Yes, yes' or 'No, no'; anything beyond these is of evil. 38 "You have heard that it was said, 'AN EYE FOR AN EYE, AND A TOOTH FOR A TOOTH.' 39 "But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 "If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 "Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 "Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you. 43 "You have heard that it was said, 'YOU SHALL LOVE YOUR NEIGHBOR and hate your enemy.' 44 "But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 "For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same?  47 "If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 "Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Indeed, God's Messiah came to magnify the Law! And so He did! 

These teachings of our Lord were so severe, and more stringent than the simple statements of the Ten Commandments, that they led one to hopelessness in trying to keep them. But it did not stop with the first commands. It went further. If one looked longingly on a woman (or man) to lust after her (him), the person was adjudged as committing adultery (Matthew 5:28). President Carter at the beginning of his presidency was not the only one to acknowledge openly that he committed this kind of adultery. It occurs to every normal person unless certain glands have been removed. Hardly anyone has escaped breaking Christ's interpretation on this matter. And look at the harshness of punishment for this type of adultery. The right eye was ordered to be plucked out (Matthew 5:29) or the right hand cut off (verse 30). This surgery of part of the anatomy was to prevent all the body being destroyed in Gehenna fire.

But the severity does not end there. Whereas divorce under Moses was allowed for most human weaknesses which were judged reasonable by the courts (Deuteronomy 24:1–3), Christ's teaching was much more strict (Matthew 5:23, 32). It was so severe that even the disciples responded: "it is good not to marry" (Matthew 19:10). The disciples were simply amazed at Christ's strict teaching.

These new interpretations of Christ were vast changes to the meaning of the Laws given to Moses. They went far beyond simple obedience to law as understood by Jewish theologians. With Christ's new interpretation, if someone were to be awarded your coat at law, you were also required to give him your cloak (Matthew 5:40). When compelled to go one mile, you had to go two ((verse 40). And if smitten on the cheek, the other cheek had to be subjected to abuse (verse 39). There were no "ifs, and or buts" to these requirements, which Christ insisted that people must keep. They went far beyond the normal limits of law, whether the law was that of Moses or any of our normal laws today.

The truth is, these new interpretations that Christ gave were so far beyond the ordinary capability of man to observe (whether the laws were of God or man) that no human could possibly on all occasions keep them. This is a fact that no sensible person can deny. Yet, when a young man came to Christ and asked Him what must be done in order to attain eternal [age-lasting] life, Christ said "If you will enter into life, keep the commandments" (Matthew 19:16–17). Christ meant to keep His commandments, not simply in the Mosaic way but in the manner Christ interpreted them. Though the man said he had observed the normal (Mosaic) meaning of the commandments, he still failed the test of perfection demanded by Christ because he coveted is goods, and refused to sell them and follow Christ (verses 18–22).
The point is, how many of us are capable of keeping these high spiritual teachings of Christ in regard to law? While Elizabeth, Zechariah, Paul were reckoned as "blameless" in observing Moses' law, no one could possibly say that they kept perfectly the strict interpretations that Christ Jesus put on the law. This over-strictness is reflected throughout the whole of Matthew's Gospel. Note this point. The Scribes and Pharisees kept the law more scrupulously than any other group (they observed the Mosaic requirements well), but Christ demanded much more of His people.
"Except your righteousness shall exceed the righteousness of the scribes and Pharisees, you shall in no case enter into the kingdom of heaven." Matthew 5:20

Why, then, did Christ give us such rigorous interpretations when He knew they could not be kept? It is very simple. It was to increase peoples' transgressions and show that no one can possibly gain salvation by trying to keep any law. Christ went so far as to make the law so stern that no one could possibly observe it perfectly. And while the apostle Paul stated that the law of Moses had been given "for the purpose of producing transgressions" (Galatians 3:19, Moffatt translation), when Christ came along, following the precedent of Moses, He increased the resultant transgressions tenfold with His above-normal requirements. Of course, Christ had the power to insist on such stringent disciplines if He so pleased. But again, why did He do so?
As stated before, Christ was making the law so impossible to observe in a perfect sense, that there was no chance of anyone being called "blameless" again. He did this in order to direct people to the need of a Savior (Himself) who was to manifest Himself to the earth. And Christ poured on laws upon laws (and extremely stringent ones) that no ordinary human could even begin to keep.

All through Christ's ministry while He was in the flesh, he emphasized only one way to gain salvation. It was through obedience to law. But when man witnessed the crucifixion and resurrection of Christ (and the sending of the Holy Spirit), a whole new method of gaining salvation was introduced to the earth. Something different from the observance of laws was brought into existence. A new standard of righteousness was introduced. It was given to those who expressed a faith and love in Christ, a reliance on His blood as the sole means for obtaining the Kingdom of God and a salvation that accompanied the promise of the Kingdom.

Thus, through the whole of the ministry of Christ while in the flesh, He insisted on law keeping as the only way to salvation. But this insistence on law (and on a over-strict interpretation of it) represented a conclusion to the Mosaic system; the Law of Moses made even more stringent with Christ's superlative additions. This shows that Christ's teaching to the Jews in Palestine was not the beginning of the Christian system in which salvation was awarded through faith, not through law. This first phase of Christ's teachings shows a deficiency in the message that Christ taught to the Jews (a deficiency intended by God). It shows a great difference between the first teachings of Christ and those taught later by the apostles. Christ's message of law before His crucifixion was intended to be replaced by something better; replaced by the final teachings of Christ that had grace as the means of salvation. But before Christ's crucifixion, it was all LAW, LAW and more LAW! (Taken from ELM)


  :wink:
Paul

Amen Pierac!  Amen, Amen, Amen, verily Amen and again!

 :cloud9: Very, very interesting article, Pierac....... :thumbsup:

some people though confuse the commandments with the laws of the torah, it is a simple mistake to make.

The 10 commandments or the 12 commandments are based on the spiritual unchanging laws of God, while the Torah laws were based on righteousness via works, which was used as a schoolmaster to bring people to Christ. Today it might seem rather odd, but if you think back to the olden days people had a different mentality, they were far more disciplined and rigid in all their ways and probably believed that following laws could make them perfect. But now the way to perfection is through Christ, first the blood washing then the holyspirit and word tranforming the inner man to do that which is holy and acceptable to the father.

Good post :grin:

And perhaps the purpose, Eh. 4:15
" and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head--the Christ;"  (YLT)

"but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;  (ASV)

^KJVLev 16
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

^YLTLev 16
31 it is to you a sabbath of rest, and ye have humbled yourselves--a statute age-during.


I haven't checked them all, but often God commands something for ever age-during.

So imo there is certainly room for ending certain customs without the Bible contradicting.
But that still doesn't answer if that time has come for some, many, most or all of those 'age-during' commands.

Quote from: micah7:9 on October 25, 2010, 09:03:16 PM
Good post :grin:

And perhaps the purpose, Eh. 4:15
" and, being true in love, we may increase to Him in all things, who is the head--the Christ;"  (YLT)

"but speaking truth in love, we may grow up in all things into him, who is the head, even Christ;  (ASV)

I love that verse.


Ephesians 4:15
15 But speaking the truth in love, let us grow in every way into Him who is the head  —Christ.



Colossians 2:10
10 and you have been filled by Him, who is the head  over every ruler and authority.

Quote from: WhiteWings on October 25, 2010, 10:18:45 PM
^KJVLev 16
31 It shall be a sabbath of rest unto you, and ye shall afflict your souls, by a statute for ever.

^YLTLev 16
31 it is to you a sabbath of rest, and ye have humbled yourselves--a statute age-during.


I haven't checked them all, but often God commands something for ever age-during.

So imo there is certainly room for ending certain customs without the Bible contradicting.
But that still doesn't answer if that time has come for some, many, most or all of those 'age-during' commands.

:cloud9:  Of course they haven't ended......they are all being fulfilled in Christ, by Jew and Gentile alike. THAT is the difference; what was JEWISH is being fulfilled in Gentiles now, TOO. That was the message they had, that what was promised to the JEWS and came, was ALSO available NOW to the GENTILES.

There is a mindset in Christendom due to the division that came shortly after this message was preached, and the Helenization of the church began,  that salvation is a Christian doctrine, completely forgetting and/or blinded to the fact that this was a JEWISH message, that included the Gentiles this time around, and that thru Christ, they are being made in one body, which is Christ.

The branch that the Gentiles are, has Jewish roots. Jesus went to the festivals while He walked among them. He probably had a blue ribbon on the bottom of His robe, identifying Him as a Rabbi or teacher, as was the custom of the day, which is what the woman touched when virtue went out of Him. My  :2c: Blessings....