i still attend a church and had to consider the reason i go.. i questioned my reason and intentions. i came to the conclusion that i could care less what the "pastor" has to say ( that is why i love to usher outside in the parking lot), i dont go for the music (my God is more worthy than having to wait for sunday to praise him), nor do i care for any ministries within the church. with that being said i came to the conclusion that i go for 2 reasons.
1. keep the peace with my wife.
2. get together with some of the guys and just fellowship.
what are your reasons?
I go because I want my children to grow up in the church.
Quote from: shawn on September 01, 2010, 08:19:49 PMI go because I want my children to grow up in the church.
Not for yourself? If so why you kids need to go.
@santikos: My last church visit was 20 years ago.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 01, 2010, 08:53:09 PM
Quote from: shawn on September 01, 2010, 08:19:49 PMI go because I want my children to grow up in the church.
Not for yourself? If so why you kids need to go.
@santikos: My last church visit was 20 years ago.
I want my children to have some form of organized Bible learning and to be socialized with Christian childen. I do my own Bible study. I'm not sure I totally get this whole anti-church movement in UR circles.
Shawn, I didn't visit church before I heard of UR. So my "20 year" remark had nothing to do with doniminations.
That said I can understand why people left church. For me personally the ET doctrine is a gigantic insult of Father. So I can understand people don't want to listen to those insults. (in church)
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 01, 2010, 10:25:07 PM
Shawn, I didn't visit church before I heard of UR. So my "20 year" remark had nothing to do with doniminations.
That said I can understand why people left church. For me personally the ET doctrine is a gigantic insult of Father. So I can understand people don't want to listen to those insults. (in church)
I rarely hear about hell in church. When I do it's vague...some sort of eternal seperation. I'm not going to agree with everything my church believes. That doesn't mean I want my children to grow up without a formal Bible training. Just my thought on the matter. For those that decided to leave the church more power to them. I just don't want that imposed on me.
Hi Shawn...I just finished 5 days at a family bible camp,the camp was great ,kids enjoyed the outside but I wouldn't let them inside.The pastor was so welcoming but at the end of every sermon he HAD TO put in "but what side are you on?Everyone would leave frightened and intimidated.My wife and I couldn't beleive this could happen everytime,my sister was in tears! people sat on steps and asked what kind of God do we serve?!
there was no peace in the entire camp ,I asked God give me oppurtunity to speak with him...He did,I could not reach him he was cold and self righteous
I would never let my children be influenced by this,I teach my children when they have questions I don't cram religion on them, it has to come from their hearts.Bible stories are great but if they are feared into making a "decision for christ" it is not love compelling them
blessings :icon_king:
Quote from: onlytruth on September 02, 2010, 12:37:08 AM
Hi Shawn...I just finished 5 days at a family bible camp,the camp was great ,kids enjoyed the outside but I wouldn't let them inside.The pastor was so welcoming but at the end of every sermon he HAD TO put in "but what side are you on?Everyone would leave frightened and intimidated.My wife and I couldn't beleive this could happen everytime,my sister was in tears! people sat on steps and asked what kind of God do we serve?!
there was no peace in the entire camp ,I asked God give me oppurtunity to speak with him...He did,I could not reach him he was cold and self righteous
I would never let my children be influenced by this,I teach my children when they have questions I don't cram religion on them, it has to come from their hearts.Bible stories are great but if they are feared into making a "decision for christ" it is not love compelling them
blessings :icon_king:
I wouldn't expose my children to that either. I think most of us can agree on that.
I go to Church to make my wife happy! :Peck:
This is what I go through every Sunday.... !!!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ys4Nx0rNlAM
Watch the whole video! It's scary how close they are to the reality of the Church today! :sigh:
Paul
I go to serve.
I'm sorry I can't go to a church unless it's for a funeral or special occasion, I can't pretend...the reason
When I questioned the doctrine of ET, I was told that they spread the gospel because they don't know who God has chosen to save, that was very telling as it told me that they are dishonest in their presentation of the gospel...I'm still trying to get over this as it shattered my trust in God
For them to claim that God loves us all according to their beliefs is a CRUEL CALLOUS LIE
I'm grateful I did research and came across Tentmaker and other sites, otherwise I don't know what I would have done
Pierac, sorry you have to go through that torture everyweek. i have about 1 more week of ushering in the parking lot them i have to enter the chambers and feel the pain you go through once again. :footmouth:
2 weeks ago we had a guest speaker who "mike tysoned" everyone ( layed everyone out on the ground with his hands). thank God for that event i was enjoying the 100+degree san antonio weather outside in the lot.
peirac...I've been there! that was great!
Peirac: If serving coffee or tea shows the excellence of God through me; would you like sugar with that? :)
Remember children, the church is a mission field too. Who is more blind than those who are blind and don't even know they are? We are the body of Jesus, the great physician. We should be his hands, even if we must be dipped in mud and spit; to be put on the eyes of the religious and blind to open them to the light of God. We must first and foremost do this through, and especially through being active, and excellent Christians, willing to sacrifice comfort, to be a people who will be known by our fruit, and therefore be trustworthy sources as we minister Truth and True Gospel in the harlot church system.
This is why I serve, and go to church. :)
Quote from: Lefein on September 02, 2010, 07:06:35 PM
Peirac: If serving coffee or tea shows the excellence of God through me; would you like sugar with that? :)
Remember children, the church is a mission field too. Who is more blind than those who are blind and don't even know they are? We are the body of Jesus, the great physician. We should be his hands, even if we must be dipped in mud and spit; to be put on the eyes of the religious and blind to open them to the light of God. We must first and foremost do this through, and especially through being active, and excellent Christians, willing to sacrifice comfort, to be a people who will be known by our fruit, and therefore be trustworthy sources as we minister Truth and True Gospel in the harlot church system.
This is why I serve, and go to church. :)
No my dear friend, the
church is not a mission field! The Church is the body of God's Christ!
I apologize if I hurt your feelings during a forum post misunderstanding... I was just pointing out there is no serving by just... attending a church service.
Paul
You did not hurt my feelings, you merely pointed out a semantic that I must have need to clarify. But to be bold...The church (the term that is now accepted to mean the building)...IS, a mission field. And I will be bold to say also, that if you are only attending (pew sitting) then that would explain a greater deal of why you aren't getting anything out of it other than frustration.
There are things to do at church, ways to serve, ways to participate outside of the sanctuary. The church I'm visiting is going to make apple butter to sell, by which it will fund its missionary travel this year. I plan on serving by helping to make it.
The Church is indeed the body of Christ, true. But we have a harlot system that is called "going to church" now, and the only way to make any progress in fixing it, is from the inside out, not the outside in. Christ didn't change us from the outside in, and he won't change his body from the outside in.
To serve is to show fruit, to show fruit is to bear a blameless, and believable witness. It is only by being a witness to the Christians who have been swept up by the doctrine of ET, and other traditions, that we will be an effective means of changing the church system into The Church.
Hence, I go to serve, to be a tool that Christ can use to change the church from the inside out: Not to "attend".
Quote from: Lefein on September 03, 2010, 05:20:44 AM
You did not hurt my feelings, you merely pointed out a semantic that I must have need to clarify. But to be bold...The church (the term that is now accepted to mean the building)...IS, a mission field. And I will be bold to say also, that if you are only attending (pew sitting) then that would explain a greater deal of why you aren't getting anything out of it other than frustration.
There are things to do at church, ways to serve, ways to participate outside of the sanctuary. The church I'm visiting is going to make apple butter to sell, by which it will fund its missionary travel this year. I plan on serving by helping to make it.
The Church is indeed the body of Christ, true. But we have a harlot system that is called "going to church" now, and the only way to make any progress in fixing it, is from the inside out, not the outside in. Christ didn't change us from the outside in, and he won't change his body from the outside in.
To serve is to show fruit, to show fruit is to bear a blameless, and believable witness. It is only by being a witness to the Christians who have been swept up by the doctrine of ET, and other traditions, that we will be an effective means of changing the church system into The Church.
Hence, I go to serve, to be a tool that Christ can use to change the church from the inside out: Not to "attend".
:thumbsup:
Same here.
But I understand there is a season for everything and for everyone.
For now, God didn't ask me to leave but sure asked me to serve where I am.
If God ever ask me to leave this community, I will.
Really good thoughts guys, some things to think about.
Passed by the building where I go sometimes with my wife (that's why I go, along with because my son goes and plays in the band), and was actually quite agitated when I saw the sign out front;
it was something like, "Remember, hell is really uncool". Frustrating. But I believe I heard God impress to me, "I'm going to take care of it". We're to "charge these things and teach". So we do our little parts, He ensures the outcomes. :thumbsup:
That impression gives me hope friend.
Quote from: jabcat on September 03, 2010, 06:07:47 AM
Really good thoughts guys, some things to think about.
Passed by the building where I go sometimes with my wife (that's why I go, along with because my son goes and plays in the band), and was actually quite agitated when I saw the sign out front;
it was something like, "Remember, hell is really uncool". Frustrating. But I believe I heard God impress to me, "I'm going to take care of it". We're to "charge these things and teach". So we do our little parts, He ensures the outcomes. :thumbsup:
Even in these moments there's a power in us called the flesh who'd like to go there and smash that sign but we have to let the Father go on with His plan.(not like we can do much to prevent Him from doing it anyway...haha)
Sometime I just wonder why this is happening, why has God let the truth be hidden for so long and why it is still hidden to those who have been blinded?
Why is the Church so weak and carnal?
In all these things, I have to believe its part of God's purpose of the ages.
:cloud9: I haven't gone regularly in well over a decade. My focus was always to WORSHIP with other believers. From the beginning I was an "outcast" as He showed me no rapture the way they were carnally teaching it, and in my zeal without knowledge I shared this with EVERYONE, LOL. Discovered the left foot of fellowship more than a few times; learned to be led of Lord what and when to share, that way.
Now, if I go, it is because HE has told me to go to a particular place for a particular reason or person or both. It is very difficult to balance this with children. When I have more time, I'll share my thoughts on why I think we have missed Him on this, as a whole. Blessings....
Quote from: Pierac on September 03, 2010, 04:21:03 AM
Quote from: Lefein on September 02, 2010, 07:06:35 PM
Peirac: If serving coffee or tea shows the excellence of God through me; would you like sugar with that? :)
Remember children, the church is a mission field too. Who is more blind than those who are blind and don't even know they are? We are the body of Jesus, the great physician. We should be his hands, even if we must be dipped in mud and spit; to be put on the eyes of the religious and blind to open them to the light of God. We must first and foremost do this through, and especially through being active, and excellent Christians, willing to sacrifice comfort, to be a people who will be known by our fruit, and therefore be trustworthy sources as we minister Truth and True Gospel in the harlot church system.
This is why I serve, and go to church. :)
No my dear friend, the church is not a mission field! The Church is the body of God's Christ!
I apologize if I hurt your feelings during a forum post misunderstanding... I was just pointing out there is no serving by just... attending a church service.
Paul
Those in church are not necessarily THEE church. I think the church walls can contain a mission field as significant as any.
Quote from: Lefein on September 03, 2010, 05:20:44 AM
You did not hurt my feelings, you merely pointed out a semantic that I must have need to clarify. But to be bold...The church (the term that is now accepted to mean the building)...IS, a mission field. And I will be bold to say also, that if you are only attending (pew sitting) then that would explain a greater deal of why you aren't getting anything out of it other than frustration.
There are things to do at church, ways to serve, ways to participate outside of the sanctuary. The church I'm visiting is going to make apple butter to sell, by which it will fund its missionary travel this year. I plan on serving by helping to make it.
The Church is indeed the body of Christ, true. But we have a harlot system that is called "going to church" now, and the only way to make any progress in fixing it, is from the inside out, not the outside in. Christ didn't change us from the outside in, and he won't change his body from the outside in.
To serve is to show fruit, to show fruit is to bear a blameless, and believable witness. It is only by being a witness to the Christians who have been swept up by the doctrine of ET, and other traditions, that we will be an effective means of changing the church system into The Church.
Hence, I go to serve, to be a tool that Christ can use to change the church from the inside out: Not to "attend".
Well said. Of course when you bring the "UR heresy" into the church building it will be met from a frown from the pastor. It wouldn't surprise me if you made you feel very unwelcome in their service.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 01, 2010, 08:53:09 PM@santikos: My last church visit was 20 years ago.
Seems I currently go to church almost daily; TentMaker is a church too....
ἐκκλησία
ekklēsia
Thayer Definition:
1) a gathering of citizens called out from their homes into some public place, an assembly
1a) an assembly of the people convened at the public place of the council for the purpose of deliberating
1b) the assembly of the Israelites
1c) any gathering or throng of men assembled by chance, tumultuously
1d) in a Christian sense
1d1) an assembly of Christians gathered for worship in a religious meeting
1d2) a company of Christian, or of those who, hoping for eternal salvation through Jesus Christ, observe their own religious rites, hold their own religious meetings, and manage their own affairs, according to regulations prescribed for the body for order's sake
1d3) those who anywhere, in a city, village, constitute such a company and are united into one body
1d4) the whole body of Christians scattered throughout the earth
1d5) the assembly of faithful Christians already dead and received into heaven
Part of Speech: noun feminine
A Related Word by Thayer's/Strong's Number: from a compound of G1537 and a derivative of G2564
Citing in TDNT: 3:501, 394
Quote from: shawn on September 04, 2010, 06:13:25 PMWell said. Of course when you bring the "UR heresy" into the church building it will be met from a frown from the pastor. It wouldn't surprise me if you made you feel very unwelcome in their service.
True but also very odd. Jesus didn't ran away from 'wrong' people. No He searched for them and teach them. Saved people need no sermons.
What use would it be to give a sermon to HS.... :winkgrin:
Quote from: wwSaved people need no sermons.
What use would it be to give a sermon to HS....
Sure they do. It's deep calling to deep.
Psalm 42:7
7Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me.Luke 5
4When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into deep water, and let down the nets for a catch."
"Church" for me is a Prison Chapel. I'm not an inmate, but my wife and I volunteer with leading music, some songs of our own, and most importantly, giving the men who've been locked up for years, a few of whom will likely never get out, somebody from outside to talk to. I also occasionally attend an Anglican Eucharist service, as I've come to believe that celebration of the Eucharist is like a prayer that goes up for the salvation of all mankind (somewhat like the Roman Catholic view).
:cloud9: I always tell people who ask me, church is wherever I am. Great UR conversation starter :winkgrin:
I went through a period in my life of intense questioning about "going to church" - whether I should be going at all, and if so, where? During that time my marriage was in a rough stage, so I continued to go partly because it was important to me for my children (as Shawn stated); but also because it was something I could share with my husband and I knew it was important to him.
I am so, so glad I continued to go at that time. I learned great Truth in the passage, "Consequently, faith comes from hearing the message, and the message is heard through the word of Christ." (Romans 10:17)
Please don't underestimate the power and the importance of "hearing" scripture read, above and beyond reading it on your own. How many times in the OT do we see Israel gathering and the word of God read "in the hearing of all the people" or "in the hearing of the assembly?" Isn't every one of those times a blessing to Israel?
Please consider also:
* Keeping a day holy is one of the 10 commandments, and Lev 23:3 tells us what that means - it is a sacred assembly, public meeting, convocation, reading. It is not simply a private prayer with a few people.
* Jesus observed it "as was his custom" multiple times in the NT
* Hebrews 10:25 reiterates that NT Christians are to observe it as well.
I'm not saying today's churches are like the gatherings in OT times; I'm not saying we "sin" if we don't "go to church." I'm just saying there is a reason to go that is good for us, and meant to build us up individually and corporately as His body.
I have grown to treasure my time at mass, hearing scripture read; gathering physically with other believers to worship and to pray; and sharing in holy communion, the bread & wine, body & blood of our Lord Jesus Christ. It humbles me and frequently literally brings me to tears.
:HeartThrob:
My understanding;
Re: "keeping a day holy is one of the Ten Commandments" - we are not under the Law. The Law was written to the nation of Israel. Paul, speaking to the post-cross ecclesia, said one esteems a day above another, another esteems all days the same. I fall into the latter group.
The body and blood is symbolic, a remembrance.
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." Matthew 18:20
:icon_flower:
P.S. I certainly do believe that it's a good thing to get together with other believers and worship and share. :bigGrin:
Quote from: jabcat on September 06, 2010, 09:01:58 PM
we are not under the Law.
I know, and I meant it when I said I don't believe we "sin" if we don't "go to church."
But I do feel sorrow for people who don't go to church regularly, because I do think you miss out on many wonderful blessings :mblush:
:grouppray:
Fellowship is good and necessary. It can just be hard to find consistently within orthodoxy...I believe it takes some effort to find things on which there are common ground, while finding some way to deal with the, uh, "other issues". :bigGrin:
Example. Last night I fellowshipped with my wife and aunt (orthodox). We found the common ground of believing on Jesus and helping others. I planted a couple of seeds for thought, and we had a good discussion.
LS,
Isn't the Tentmaker forum a church? (I think it is)
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." Matthew 18:20
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 06, 2010, 09:57:18 PM
LS,
Isn't the Tentmaker forum a church? (I think it is)
"For where two or three are gathered in my name, there am I among them." Matthew 18:20
Yes, in its own way it is.
But it is more a discussion, iron-sharpening-iron, and pray-for-each other venue. I don't hear the Word being read, I don't see it as Lev. 23:3 describes. And that's ok - it has its own blessings.
But the question for this thread is why you go to church, and my reasons for attending mass are different from the reasons I participate on messageboards, and the blessings I receive from each are different as well.
Just to clarify a little ...
Lev 23:3 Six days shall work be done: but the seventh day is the sabbath of rest, an holy convocation; ye shall do no work therein: it is the sabbath of the LORD in all your dwellings.
Convocation in Lev. 23:3:
H4744
מקרא
miqrâ'
mik-raw'
From H7121; something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
Where 2 or 3 are gathered is absolutely true - He is in our midst. But I don't think that is quite the same thing as an assembly. Both are good, but they are different. imho.
I see Lev. 23:3 and Mat. 18:20 as two seperate things. (for me)
Lev. doesn't exclude gathering on other days.
QuoteI don't hear the Word being read
But you see it written. That's similar enough I think.... I even think it is the same because otherwise deaf people aren't able to "go to church".
Mat 18:20 and the Lev. 23:3 "holy convocation" are imo the same. And how it's done is of no importance. The only important thing is to learn from that sermon, audio tape, chat, video chat, forum discussion, etc.
Personally a conversation makes me learn much faster than a one way sermon.
:2c:
Quote from: LS on September 06, 2010, 10:27:33 PM
Convocation in Lev. 23:3:
H4744
מקרא
miqrâ'
mik-raw'
From H7121; something called out, that is, a public meeting (the act, the persons, or the place); also a rehearsal: - assembly, calling, convocation, reading.
Where 2 or 3 are gathered is absolutely true - He is in our midst. But I don't think that is quite the same thing as an assembly. Both are good, but they are different. imho.
You replied just before I posted....
For me the defenition you quoted is exactly what we have here at Tentmaker.
I don't know what rehearsal is in this defenition. If it's singing then we don't have that on TM. If it is study then we have it more than in church-the-building.
All I know is that at that time in my life, if I had followed my own desires and stopped going to church, I would also have left my marriage. There is not a doubt in my mind that I was at a crossroads and I thank God for giving me His strength to choose what He was asking of me even when I wanted to run the other way.
I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to anybody else and I really can't explain it more, but I know that for me "going to church" is a unique way He feeds me.
Quote from: LS on September 07, 2010, 12:01:47 AM
All I know is that at that time in my life, if I had followed my own desires and stopped going to church, I would also have left my marriage. There is not a doubt in my mind that I was at a crossroads and I thank God for giving me His strength to choose what He was asking of me even when I wanted to run the other way.
I'm sorry if that doesn't make sense to anybody else and I really can't explain it more, but I know that for me "going to church" is a unique way He feeds me.
And I think that is the way it needs to be approached. Each person needs to be confident in their own minds about their views on church attendance. I do not believe it's required. I do believe it's optional. But, I also believe that many can and do get spiritual revelation in church. I believe many benefit from attendance.
QuoteWell said. Of course when you bring the "UR heresy" into the church building it will be met from a frown from the pastor. It wouldn't surprise me if you made you feel very unwelcome in their service.
Actually, it went well. He did not exactly...change, and neither did I. Basically it was a conversation that was more a philosophical discussion at day's end. But I was not frowned upon, and was actually complimented for being a good student of the Bible, I am liked, as far as I know. :)
At first I felt unwelcome, and I am still detached from the church at large, and it is not exactly a "church family" it is almost like "going to work" and having co-workers. But I am not condemned as far as I can tell, and gossip about me doesn't seem to be running about.
But that has only increased the wisdom God showed me about service. If I show myself approved not only in study, but application: which involves being a servant, just as Christ was, then Christ-like I shall become, and Christ/Christ-likeness will not be denied for long. ;)
I believe I have God's favour where I am going :) It is always important to ask for God's favour in any mission field. Whether it be in the papal pew, or the pagan village.
:cloud9: That's very true.....everyone should ask His will in going or not going, and for favor when sent.....I do. Blessings...
i know that, for me, i cannot go to a building and "recieve" word from the person the people call pastor. it was never meant to be one man speaking and all other listening week after week. I would think that a pastor/priest would know better, maybe they just dont want to offend the hand that feeds them.
:cloud9: There's a thread here somewhere about 'what is church'......
Quote from: Molly on September 04, 2010, 08:30:19 PM
Quote from: wwSaved people need no sermons.
What use would it be to give a sermon to HS....
Sure they do. It's deep calling to deep.
Psalm 42:7
7Deep calleth unto deep at the noise of thy waterspouts: all thy waves and thy billows are gone over me.
Luke 5
4When he had finished speaking, he said to Simon, "Put out into deep water, and let down the nets for a catch."
Good one, Molly, I like that.
We must go to where He is feeding His sheep.
:cloud9: I just love that image.....put out into DEEP WATER.....let down your nets (faith requires works) for a catch (expectation). Faith anticipates an outcome and reacts accordingly.
I can see this at work on so many levels, even in the study of the Word, going deeper expecting something wonderful of Him to appear. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Quote from: Cardinal on September 09, 2010, 04:01:50 AM
I can see this at work on so many levels, even in the study of the Word, going deeper expecting something wonderful of Him to appear. :thumbsup: Blessings....
Parousia!
Amen, Card.
And where will the Word appear?
On our lips!
Dont know where you have been, I hope it was a delightfull and great time of vacation and time off. I am glad to have you back, I, that means me, missed you and your input.
Im glad you are back safe and happy. The Lord is Good. Dave
:cloud9: Amen 2 that..... :thumbsup:
vacations are great :cloud9:
Honestly I go for the peace and quit and the ability to contemplate and meditate. It's also the time of the week where I have no distractions and can focus 100% of my focus on the Lord.
:HeartThrob: :HeartThrob:
Thanks micah! Thanks Card! I just noticed your sentiment!