What is Ezekiel talking about?

[ed]

Eze 43:10 Thou son of man, shew the house to the house of Israel, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities: and let them measure the pattern.
Eze 43:11 And if they be ashamed of all that they have done, shew them the form of the house, and the fashion thereof, and the goings out thereof, and the comings in thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and all the forms thereof, and all the laws thereof: and write it in their sight, that they may keep the whole form thereof, and all the ordinances thereof, and do them.
Eze 43:12 This is the law of the house; Upon the top of the mountain the whole limit thereof round about shall be most holy. Behold, this is the law of the house.
Eze 43:13 And these are the measures of the altar after the cubits: The cubit is a cubit and an hand breadth; even the bottom shall be a cubit, and the breadth a cubit, and the border thereof by the edge thereof round about shall be a span: and this shall be the higher place of the altar.
Eze 43:14 And from the bottom upon the ground even to the lower settle shall be two cubits, and the breadth one cubit; and from the lesser settle even to the greater settle shall be four cubits, and the breadth one cubit.
Eze 43:15 So the altar shall be four cubits; and from the altar and upward shall be four horns.
Eze 43:16 And the altar shall be twelve cubits long, twelve broad, square in the four squares thereof.
Eze 43:17 And the settle shall be fourteen cubits long and fourteen broad in the four squares thereof; and the border about it shall be half a cubit; and the bottom thereof shall be a cubit about; and his stairs shall look toward the east.
Eze 43:18 And he said unto me, Son of man, thus saith the Lord GOD; These are the ordinances of the altar in the day when they shall make it, to offer burnt offerings thereon, and to sprinkle blood thereon.
Eze 43:19 And thou shalt give to the priests the Levites that be of the seed of Zadok, which approach unto me, to minister unto me, saith the Lord GOD, a young bullock for a sin offering.
Eze 43:20 And thou shalt take of the blood thereof, and put it on the four horns of it, and on the four corners of the settle, and upon the border round about: thus shalt thou cleanse and purge it.
Eze 43:21 Thou shalt take the bullock also of the sin offering, and he shall burn it in the appointed place of the house, without the sanctuary.
Eze 43:22 And on the second day thou shalt offer a kid of the goats without blemish for a sin offering; and they shall cleanse the altar, as they did cleanse it with the bullock.
Eze 43:23 When thou hast made an end of cleansing it, thou shalt offer a young bullock without blemish, and a ram out of the flock without blemish.
Eze 43:24 And thou shalt offer them before the LORD, and the priests shall cast salt upon them, and they shall offer them up for a burnt offering unto the LORD.
Eze 43:25 Seven days shalt thou prepare every day a goat for a sin offering: they shall also prepare a young bullock, and a ram out of the flock, without blemish.
Eze 43:26 Seven days shall they purge the altar and purify it; and they shall consecrate themselves.
Eze 43:27 And when these days are expired, it shall be, that upon the eighth day, and so forward, the priests shall make your burnt offerings upon the altar, and your peace offerings; and I will accept you, saith the Lord GOD.

Eze 45:1 Moreover, when ye shall divide by lot the land for inheritance, ye shall offer an oblation unto the LORD, an holy portion of the land: the length shall be the length of five and twenty thousand reeds, and the breadth shall be ten thousand. This shall be holy in all the borders thereof round about.

Eze 47:13 Thus saith the Lord GOD; This shall be the border, whereby ye shall inherit the land according to the twelve tribes of Israel: Joseph shall have two portions.
Eze 47:14 And ye shall inherit it, one as well as another: concerning the which I lifted up mine hand to give it unto your fathers: and this land shall fall unto you for inheritance.
Eze 47:15 And this shall be the border of the land toward the north side, from the great sea, the way of Hethlon, as men go to Zedad;
Eze 47:16 Hamath, Berothah, Sibraim, which is between the border of Damascus and the border of Hamath; Hazarhatticon, which is by the coast of Hauran.
Eze 47:17 And the border from the sea shall be Hazarenan, the border of Damascus, and the north northward, and the border of Hamath. And this is the north side.
Eze 47:18 And the east side ye shall measure from Hauran, and from Damascus, and from Gilead, and from the land of Israel by Jordan, from the border unto the east sea. And this is the east side.
Eze 47:19 And the south side southward, from Tamar even to the waters of strife in Kadesh, the river to the great sea. And this is the south side southward.
Eze 47:20 The west side also shall be the great sea from the border, till a man come over against Hamath. This is the west side.
Eze 47:21 So shall ye divide this land unto you according to the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:22 And it shall come to pass, that ye shall divide it by lot for an inheritance unto you, and to the strangers that sojourn among you, which shall beget children among you: and they shall be unto you as born in the country among the children of Israel; they shall have inheritance with you among the tribes of Israel.
Eze 47:23 And it shall come to pass, that in what tribe the stranger sojourneth, there shall ye give him his inheritance, saith the Lord GOD.

Joshua 21
43 And the Lord gave unto Israel all the land which he sware to give unto their fathers; and they possessed it, and dwelt therein.
44 And the Lord gave them rest round about, according to all that he sware unto their fathers: and there stood not a man of all their enemies before them; the Lord delivered all their enemies into their hand.
45 There failed not ought of any good thing which the Lord had spoken unto the house of Israel; all came to pass.

Is Ezekiel still a future prophesy for Israel?

Matthew 11:13
For all the Prophets and the Law prophesied until John.

Is there a future blessing for Israel on earth, or is the Kingdom now firmly a Spiritual Jerusalem?

Hebrews 12:22
But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

Matthew 21:43
"Therefore I tell you that the kingdom of God will be taken away from you and given to a people who will produce its fruit.

[Seth]

I agree. I think it's a prophecy about Christ, who is Israel. I believe Israel has been wiped off the face of the earth and is now heavenly.

[Tom]

I believe God has paused in his dealing with Israel until all those who are chosen are called out of the nations to be the body of Christ, and then is when the book of Revelation kicks in which describes the future kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem ruled by Christ.

[Seth]

I don't believe there will ever be any kingdom chosen according to the flesh.

[rosered]

 
  I also agree with   the guys here
when you read Hebrews 9,10     of the new covenant " in Christ"   and   ONE   of the main reasons for the Cross of Jesus Christ [the LAMB OF GOD ] and bringing in the new   EVERYTHING , BY GODS OWN SPIRIT &TRUTH ,

inheritance  according to the PROMISE OF GOD     

  and   ask  the questions ,    "what exactly  are the new creatures in Christ ?"     what do they look like ? , what is their purpose ?
and why is it no man can see them ?   

  are they   here now?  and   in what way do they come ?   
Paul hit upon it some

Being a new creature in Christ    has passed from death to Life in Christ      and the new heavens and  earth   has begun   by the SPIRIT &TRUTH and   HOLY worship  in the narrow path    of  following Christ  and bearing His Image   , name and    birthright   for the inheritance  of all things new and perfect  that has come   ,, and the natural man has no part of and can never see    nor hear     or ever have the heart to understand the wisdom of  GOD     

2 Cor   5 ;17 We are Christ's Ambassadors


...16Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh;


even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.

17Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.


18Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation

Testator   one who has made a will or given a legacy.

The Old Agreement
9 The first ·agreement [covenant; contract; C given to Israel through Moses; 8:7, 13] had ·rules [regulations; requirements] for worship and a ·place on earth for worship [L earthly sanctuary/holy place]. 2 The ·Holy Tent [T Tabernacle; Ex. 25:8–9; 26:1] was ·set up [constructed; prepared] for this. The first area in the Tent was called the Holy Place. In it were the lampstand [Ex. 25:31–39] and the table [Ex. 25:23–30] with the ·bread that was made holy for God [consecrated bread; bread of presentation/offering; Ex. 25:30; Lev. 24:5–8].


3 Behind the second curtain was a ·room [section; L tent] called the ·Most Holy Place [T Holy of Holies; Ex. 26:31–34]. 4 In it was a golden altar for burning incense [Lev. 16:12–13] and the ·Ark [box; chest] ·that held the old agreement [L of the covenant/contract; Ex. 25:10; 26:33], covered [L completely; on all sides] with gold. Inside this Ark was a golden jar of manna [Ex. 16:33–34], Aaron's rod that once grew leaves [Num. 17:1–11], and the stone tablets of the ·old agreement [covenant; contract; Ex. 25:16; 40:20; Deut. 10:2]. 5 Above the Ark were the ·creatures that showed God's glory [or glorious cherubim; Ex. 25:18–22; C angelic beings representing God's presence and glory; Gen. 3:24; Ezek. 9:3; 10:1–22], ·whose wings reached over [L overshadowing] the ·lid [mercy seat; atonement cover; Lev. 16:2]. But we cannot ·tell everything about [discuss in detail] these things now.

6 When everything was made ready in this way, the priests went into the ·first room [outer room; L first tent] ·every day [regularly] to ·worship [serve; minister; perform their priestly duties; Num. 28:3]. 7 But only the high priest could go into the ·second room [inner room; L second one], and he did that only once a year [Ex. 30:10; Lev. 16:15, 34].

He could never enter the inner room without taking blood [C from the sacrificial animal] with him, which he offered to God for himself and for sins the people did ·without knowing they did them [unintentionally; in ignorance].

8 The Holy Spirit uses this to show that the way into the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] ·was not open [or had not yet been revealed] while the ·system of the old Holy Tent [or outer room of the Tabernacle; L first tent/Tabernacle] was still ·being used [in place; standing]. 9 This is an ·example [illustration; symbol] for the present time. It shows that the gifts and sacrifices offered cannot make the conscience of the worshiper ·perfect [clear; pure].

10 These gifts and sacrifices were only about food and drink and special [ceremonial; ritual] washings. They were ·rules for the body [or external regulations], ·to be followed [in force; applying] until the time of God's ·new way [reformation; new order].



oddly enough  , the eating and   drinking and  given in marriage   is when Christ returns[Days of Noah ]  and Paul said the Kingdom of God is not eating and  drinking , but peace and joy and the Holy Spirit    ^    above  verses     


The New Agreement
11 But when Christ came as the high priest of the good things ·we now have[a] [L that have come], he entered the greater and more perfect ·tent [T tabernacle]. It is not made ·by humans [L with hands] and does not belong to this ·world [creation; created order].

12 Christ entered the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] ·only once—and for all time [L once for all; 7:27; 10:10]. ·He did not take with him [L ...not by means of] the blood of goats and calves. ·His sacrifice was [L ...but by means of] his own blood, and by it he ·set us free from sin forever [L obtained/secured eternal redemption/liberation].



  13 The blood of goats and bulls [Lev. 16:14–16] and the ashes of a ·cow [young cow; heifer; Num. 19:2, 17–18] are sprinkled on the people who are [C ritually] unclean, and this ·makes their bodies clean again [restores their body to ritual purity].

  14 How much more is done by the blood of Christ. He offered himself through the eternal ·Spirit [or spirit; C most likely the Holy Spirit, though possibly Christ's own eternal spirit, or as a "spiritual" and eternal sacrifice] as a ·perfect [unblemished] sacrifice to God. His blood [C signifying his sacrificial death] will make our consciences ·pure [cleansed] from ·useless acts [or acts that lead to death; L dead works; 6:1] so we may ·serve [worship; offer priestly service for] the living God.

15 For this reason Christ ·brings a new agreement from God to his people [L is the mediator of a new covenant/contract]. Those who are called by God can now receive the eternal ·blessings [inheritance] he has promised. They can have those things because Christ died to ·set them free [redeem them] from the ·sins [transgressions; violations] committed under the first agreement [covenant; contract].

16 When there is a ·will [last will and testament; C the same Greek word translated "agreement" in v.



15; the author develops his illustration from the various meanings of the word], it must be proven that the one who wrote that ·will [last will and testament] is dead.


17 [L For; Because] A ·will [last will and testament] ·means nothing [carries no force] while the person is alive; it can ·be used [take effect] only after the person dies. 18 This is why even the first ·agreement [covenant; contract; C the same Greek word as "will" in vv. 16–17] could not ·begin [be inaugurated/put into effect] without blood [C the death of a sacrificial animal]. [/color

]19 First, Moses told all the people every command in the law. Next he took the blood of calves and mixed it with water. Then he used ·red [scarlet] wool and a branch of the hyssop plant to sprinkle it on the book of the law and on all the people.

20 He said, "This is the blood ·that begins [that seals/confirms; L of] the ·Agreement [Covenant; Contract] that God commanded you to ·obey [keep; Ex. 24:8]." 21 In the same way, Moses sprinkled the blood on the ·Holy Tent [T Tabernacle] and over all the ·things [vessels; utensils] used in worship. 22 The law says that almost everything must be ·made clean [purified; cleansed] by blood, and sins cannot be forgiven without ·blood to show death [the shedding of blood; C signifying death to pay the penalty of sin].

Christ's Death Takes Away Sins
23 So the ·copies [symbols; models; prototypes] of the real things in heaven had to be ·made clean [purified; cleansed] by animal sacrifices. But the real things in heaven need much better sacrifices.

24 [L For] Christ did not go into ·the Most Holy Place [a sanctuary; L holy things] made by ·humans [L hands], which is only a ·copy [model; or prefiguration] of the real one. He went into heaven itself and ·is there [appears] now ·before [in the presence of] God ·to help us [for us; on our behalf].


25 The high priest enters the ·Most Holy Place [sanctuary; L holy things; T Holy of Holies] once every year with blood that is not his own. But Christ did not offer himself many times. 26 ·Then [Otherwise; In such a case,] he would have had to suffer many times ·since the world was made [from the foundation/creation of the world]. But Christ ·came [appeared] ·only once and for all time [once for all; 7:27; 9:12, 26; 10:10] at the ·end [culmination; climax] of ·the present age [time; L the ages] to ·take away all [nullify; abolish] sin by sacrificing himself.


27 Just as ·everyone [L people] ·must [is/are destined/appointed to] die once and ·then be judged [T after this the judgment], 28 so Christ was offered as a sacrifice one time to ·take away [bear] the sins of many people [Is. 53:12]. And he will ·come [appear] a second time, not to offer himself for sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.     :thumbsup:

Footnotes:

Hebrews 9:11 good ... have Some Greek copies read "good things that are to come."
Hebrews 9:19 calves Some Greek copies read "calves and goats."

could this be any plainer ?    more simple  ?    more perfect than explained ?   

Sounds like a now thing to me   and saying this by faith in the Will /testament of God    and not some other age    , unless we miss the mark  or any one born of the Spirit and truth  being a new  creature in Christ /anointing       of that same   High calling  , called out of the world  , yet in it    but saved by Grace    Jesus same  prayer in John 17    comes to mind   
https://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=JOHN+17&version=EXB

THIS GLORY , SAME GLORY   OF THE FATHER  AS THE SON    AND THOSE CALLED   AND CHOSEN   TO GLORIFY  IN THE EARTH    AS IT IS IN HEAVEN   this image   bearing   of the HOLY ONE
New heavens and earth and kept from the evil one     most certainly      a very important clue    to be   made known to those with ears to ear    , eyes to see and heart to understand it    AS GLORY   !!   
   

[WhiteWings]

I believe God has paused in his dealing with Israel until all those who are chosen are called out of the nations to be the body of Christ, and then is when the book of Revelation kicks in which describes the future kingdom of the heavens on earth in Jerusalem ruled by Christ.

I think God is never pauzing anything. The ancient Jews were in captivity several times in history. They were ruled by pagan kings. Was God pauzing while His people were in Egypt?

Then there is the passage of the sticks. The Northern and Southern Kingdoms. They once will be both Father's hand again and made one.
Only one kingdom came back from exile. The other never did. Also called the lost tribes. The present day Jews have quite  a bit of interest of who where there brother and sisters of the other kingdom/stick are right now. They researched that in several independent ways and it all seems to point to that the other kingdom is in the present day Christian countries.

If you keep looking at those sticks you will see the replacement theology is false. Superiority complex. Racism. Both sticks are different but both have their own unique qualities.

Still looking at the sticks you will find they only will be reunited when there is peace between Israel and it's neighbors. That simple fact rules out the view that all that kingdom stuff is only taking place in heaven. Unless there are muslims in heaven.
There is a lot more to say about those stick but I leave it at this.
:gimmefive:


Anyway what I'm trying to say with the part about the sticks is that if one stick is Christianity He's dealing at least with one stick.





Ezek 37:15-28 (HRB2012)
15 And the Word of YAHWEH was to me,
16 saying, And you, son of man, take one stick to yourself and write on it, For Judah, and for his companions, the sons of Israel. And take another stick and write on it, For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim and all the house of Israel, his companions.
17 And draw them one to one for yourself, into one (echad) stick. And they shall become one (echad) in your hand.
18 And when the sons of your people shall speak to you, saying, Will you not declare to us what these mean to you?
19 Say to them, So says Adonai YAHWEH: Behold, I will take the stick of Joseph which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions. And I will put them with him, with the stick of Judah, and I will make them one stick, and they shall be one (echad) in My hand.
20 And the sticks shall be in your hand, the ones on which you write before their eyes.
21 And say to them, So says Adonai YAHWEH: Behold, I will take the sons of Israel from among the nations, there where they have gone, and will gather them from all around, and will bring them into their own land.
22 And I will make them one (echad) nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel, and one King shall be for a king to all of them. And they shall not be two nations anymore. And they will not be split into two kingdoms any more.
23 And they will not still be defiled with their idols, even with their filthy idols, nor with all of their transgressions. But I will save them out of all their dwelling places where they have sinned in them, and I will cleanse them. So they shall be for a people to Me and I will be for Elohim to them.
24 And My servant, David, shall be King over them. And there shall be one Shepherd to all of them. And they shall walk in My judgments and keep My statutes, and do them.
25 And they shall dwell on the land that I have given to My servant, to Jacob, there where your fathers dwelt in it. And they shall dwell on it, they and their sons, and the sons of their sons, forever. And My servant David shall be a ruler to them forever.
26 And I will cut a covenant of peace with them, an everlasting covenant it shall be with them, And I will place them and multiply them, and I will put (Aleph/Tav) My sanctuary in their midst forever.
27 And My tabernacle shall be with them, and I will be their Elohim, and they shall be My people.
28 And when My sanctuary shall be in their midst forever, the nations shall know that I, YAHWEH, sanctify Israel.

[Tom]

When I said "paused" I meant in the sense that the Jewish hope of the kingdom of the heavens will not happen until a later time. Of course the Father is continuously "dealing with" all of the universe because he is "operating all in accord with the counsel of his will" (Ephesians 1:11). I think it is the Father's will that Israel is temporarily blinded to the truth about Christ until all those who have been chosen are called out of the nations to be the body of Christ, and it is then that the Jews will have their kingdom of the heavens.

"God gives them a spirit of stupor, eyes not to be observing, and ears not to be hearing, till this very day" (Romans 1:18)

"For I am not willing for you to be ignorant of this secret, brethren, lest you may be passing for prudent among yourselves, that callousness, in part, on Israel has come, until the complement of the nations may be entering." (Romans 11:25)

[Seth]

Once a Jewish person believes in Jesus Christ, he becomes one with Gentile believers. Race is not a factor that distinguishes them. The idea that God deals differently with believers based solely on race is counterintuitive to the Gospel in my opinion. Race doesn't matter, only the heart.

[rosered]

Once a Jewish person believes in Jesus Christ, he becomes one with Gentile believers. Race is not a factor that distinguishes them. The idea that God deals differently with believers based solely on race is counterintuitive to the Gospel in my opinion. Race doesn't matter, only the heart.

  Yes,  Bro Seth , the new creature in Christ / anointing     has no   earthy   ties  :thumbsup: 

[Seth]

 :thumbsup: :dsunny:

[eaglesway]

I believe the gifts and callings of God are without repentance and there is still a promise working in natural Israel, even as there is a promise still working in natural Ishmael.

I believe God is at work in America and raised it up, -and will also lower it in time. God raised up Egypt and Pharoah and Babylon and Assyria.

I love the verse in revelations.... "The kingdoms of this world are now the kingdoms of our God and His Christ!"

But the abiding Zion and Jerusalem are in the heavenly realms according to Hebrews 12. In Revelations we see them "coming down out of heaven", covered in white linen, the righteous acts of the saints- which to me means manifesting on earth and being revealed to men.



Jesus said, "I am the bread coming down out of heaven". The bread of life manifesting in the earth, revealed to men.

All of natural Israel will be absorbed into heavenly Israel- as will all men.

Psalms 48

Great is the Lord, and greatly to be praised,
In the city of our God, His holy mountain.
Beautiful in elevation, the joy of the whole earth,
Is Mount Zion in the far north,
The city of the great King.
God, in her palaces,
Has made Himself known as a stronghold.
For, lo, the kings assembled themselves,
They passed by together.
They saw it, then they were amazed;
They were terrified, they fled in alarm.
Panic seized them there,
Anguish, as of a woman in childbirth.
With the east wind
You break the ships of Tarshish.
As we have heard, so have we seen
In the city of the Lord of hosts, in the city of our God;
God will establish her forever. Selah.
We have thought on Your lovingkindness, O God,
In the midst of Your temple.
As is Your name, O God,
So is Your praise to the ends of the earth;
Your right hand is full of righteousness.
Let Mount Zion be glad,
Let the daughters of Judah rejoice
Because of Your judgments.
Walk about Zion and go around her;
Count her towers;
Consider her ramparts;
Go through her palaces,
That you may tell it to the next generation.
For such is God,
Our God forever and ever;
He will guide us until death.


Psalm 87
His foundation is in the holy mountains.
The Lord loves the gates of Zion
More than all the other dwelling places of Jacob.
Glorious things are spoken of you,
O city of God. Selah.
"I shall mention Rahab and Babylon among those who know Me;
Behold, Philistia and Tyre with Ethiopia:
'This one was born there.'"
But of Zion it shall be said, "This one and that one were born in her";
And the Most High Himself will establish her.
The Lord will count when He registers the peoples,
"This one was born there." Selah.
Then those who sing as well as those who play the flutes shall say,
"All my springs of joy are in you."

[Seth]

The only gift and calling that was unconditional, and therefore irrevocable, that Paul speaks about was the future salvation of sin for Israel. But, their position in sonship was always based on obedience, and was therefore always revocable. That is the very reason that only those who believe in Christ are sons. That could never be if their sonship was unconditional.

[eaglesway]

Yet Paul says to the assembled at Mars Hill, "For we are all His children".

I agree that "sonship" in Christ belongs only to those who believe. But God is working on many levels and I think He still holds natural Israel in the crook of His arm.

[Seth]

since he was talking to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, and quoting their own poets, it would seem that he holds the entire world in the crook of his arms not just one section based on race. Just my opinion.

[ed]

Once a Jewish person believes in Jesus Christ, he becomes one with Gentile believers. Race is not a factor that distinguishes them. The idea that God deals differently with believers based solely on race is counterintuitive to the Gospel in my opinion. Race doesn't matter, only the heart.

Yeah Seth,

The whole thing stinks of flesh motive..................

But still I wonder, what is it to me if God does some sort of kingdom on earth with Isreal?
Seems to be what Ezekiel was saying.  What do I care?  Does it somehow make me jealous?  Can't God do as God pleases?   I was arguing against it, but now I am wondering if I have enough information to go on.  Agnostic on the matter?  Either way fine by me?

:Peace2:

[Seth]

I actually think that Ezekiel is talking about New Jerusalem. I actually believe that the saints will rule on the earth. I don't agree that there are separate kingdoms, one for this race and one for that race. The dividing wall is down.

[eaglesway]

since he was talking to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, and quoting their own poets, it would seem that he holds the entire world in the crook of his arms not just one section based on race. Just my opinion.

Absolutely, He has the whole world in His hands for sure. His heart is big enough for ALL. But since the beginning, He has called out some, in different times for different purposes, and I think His purposes are still being demonstrated on natural Israel, whom Paul said, were "Beloved for the sake of the patriarchs", and for having kept "the oracles of God" even tho they are "enemies of the gospel".

[eaglesway]

Yea, I think all the verses posted in this thread find there ultimate fulfillment in the tabernacle of God, which began with Israel, then moved to the body of Christ, and will eventually incorporate all, when God is all in all.

[Seth]

since he was talking to the men of Athens on Mars Hill, and quoting their own poets, it would seem that he holds the entire world in the crook of his arms not just one section based on race. Just my opinion.

Absolutely, He has the whole world in His hands for sure. His heart is big enough for ALL. But since the beginning, He has called out some, in different times for different purposes, and I think His purposes are still being demonstrated on natural Israel, whom Paul said, were "Beloved for the sake of the patriarchs", and for having kept "the oracles of God" even tho they are "enemies of the gospel".

I definitely agree. And I think God is planning a special thing for them as the glorious final act to bring them in and complete the salvation of all. This whole separation thing is only a way to get everyone saved in a special order. Their rejection as branches was so Christ would be killed and resurrected, given to the Gentiles then back to the Jews. It's definitely not because he doesn't love them.

[Tom]

Christ first appeared to Saul outside Israel on the road to Damascus; Barnabas and Saul, who became known as Paul, were severed by the holy spirit in Antioch to evangelize the dispersion as well as the nations; and there was an agreement at the Jerusalem conference among the Jews that Paul would evangelize the nations without requiring them to be subject to the law as the Jews still saw themselves as being. I agree we're one in Christ Jesus with Jewish believers, but there is a reference in scripture to the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels.

"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, "Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)

"Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith. Now they tarried no brief time with the disciples. And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved." Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question. They indeed, then, being sent forward by the ecclesia, passed through Phoenicia as well as Samaria, detailing the turning about of the nations. And they caused great joy to all the brethren. Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them. Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter. Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them, "Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear? But through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved in a manner even as they." Now the entire multitude hushes, and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them. Now after they hush, James answered saying, "Men! Brethren! Hear me! Simeon unfolds how God first visits the nations, to obtain out of them a people for His name. And with this agree the words of the prophets, according as it is written, After these things I will turn back, 'And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen... And its overturned structure will I rebuild, And I will re-erect it...So that those left of mankind should be seeking out the Lord, And all the nations, on them over whom My name is invoked, Is saying the Lord, Who is doing these things.' Known from the eon to the Lord is His work. "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood. For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues." Then it seems good to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole ecclesia, choosing men from among them, to send to Antioch, together with Paul and Barnabas, Judas, called Bar-Sabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, writing through their hand as follows: "The apostles and the elders and the brethren, to the brethren at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, out of the nations: Rejoice! "Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom we gave no assignment, it seems good to us, in coming to be of one accord, choosing men, to send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who give up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have, then, commissioned Judas and Silas, and they are reporting the same by word. For it seems good to the holy spirit and to us in nothing to be placing one more burden on you save these essentials: to be abstaining from idol sacrifices, and blood, and what is strangled and prostitution; from which, carefully keeping yourselves, you will be well engaged. Farewell!" They indeed, then, being dismissed, came down to Antioch, and gathering the multitude, hand them the epistle. Now, reading it, they rejoiced at the consolation. (Acts 14:27-15:31)

"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision--only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." (Galatians 2:7-10)

But later in Galatians it also says...

"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Galatians 5:6)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15)

And Colossians says...

"there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ" (Colossians 3:11)

So I think a distinction was made between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels in the early days, but I agree that there is no distinction between Jews and those of us of the nations in the body of Christ. I think the problem is that the church distorts the evangel today the same way that Paul warned against in the epistle to the Galatians.

"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)

That's why I'm unchurched and content to be a member of the ecclesia, the body of Christ, not subject to the Hebrew law or traditions and not subject to the church law or traditions. I believe scripture is sufficient, and I fellowship wherever whenever I can with my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of whether they're Jewish or not, Covenant Theology believers or Dispensationalist believers, believers in universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) and the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) or even misinformed believers in torture in fire forever. I believe we're all one in spirit with Christ and the Father, and all those differences will someday disappear when God is all in all.

[eaglesway]

response to Seths last post


Exactly. "Making them jealous" as the fulness of the gentiles is brought in, a partial hardening resulting in mercy for the Gentiles.

15 For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead? 16 If the first piece of dough is holy, the lump is also; and if the root is holy, the branches are too.

Interesting in Romans 11 that Paul clearly shows the root of the salvation of all is Israel. And the discourse ends celebrating the salvation of all.

They were to be the Lampstand, but the Lampstand has passed to the wild branches for a time, but it will eventually pass to the "one new man" composed of Jews and Gentiles, a nation of priests, who will, with Messiah, gather all into one so that God becomes ALL IN ALL.

In the tabernacle, in the outer court, there are multitudes of sacrifices for sin. Then into the holy place, a submission of the will(washing, yield your bodies) and the beginnings of revelation(Lampstand) and fellowship(table of presence bread)-

Then before the curtain the golden altar of incense, where the spotless lamb was offered, all these things revealing the tabernacle in the heavens where the souls beneath the altar cry out "How long O Lord" and the incense of there prayer of intercession rises up amid thunders and lightnings until eventually -THE VEIL IN THE HEAVENS IS ROLLED BACK LIKE A SCROLL and as it is written in Isaiah- "Upon this mountain I will remove the veil that covers all the people"

I see this as wheels within wheels. Christ and the two anointed ones the innermost wheel, then the 24 elders surrounding the throne, then the souls beneath the altar(if you can see it, working your way out from the throne- or the mercy seat between the wings of the cherubim).

It is like the tabernacle is being turned inside out through revelation, each wheel serving the next wheel untill all that is out is drawn in and that which is innermost is poured out into all.

" one body and one Spirit, according as also ye were called in one hope of your calling;
5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
6 one God and Father of all, who [is] over all, and through all, and in you all,
7 and to each one of you was given the grace, according to the measure of the gift of Christ,
8 wherefore, he saith, `Having gone up on high he led captive captivity, and gave gifts to men,' --
9 and that, he went up, what is it except that he also went down first to the lower parts of the earth?
10 he who went down is the same also who went up far above all the heavens, that He may fill all things --


Jesus led captivity captive and "ascended" into the innermost and then "poured out" that innermost upon the new tabernacle of living stones at pentecost.

Jesus is eternally(time-transcendently) ascending and always leading captivity captive(the subjection of all adversaries and the reconciling of all into the all in all) and at the same time always "filling all things"-

like a big heavenly updraft drawing all things into the all in all, in the form of a great heavenly vaccuum sucking the new creation out of the chaos(the earth was without form and void and the Spirit hovered over the face of the deep" and "light shall shine out of darkness" to reveal the light of the glory of God in the face of Christ".

So while some people worry about the overcomers message being elitist and exclusive- it is really that the innermost wheels serve the outer. The high priest the servant of all, and His disciples, those who serve as He does and all that "service" flowing out as love and the light of revelation until all are drawn into the innermost and the innermost is poured out into all.

That to me is the signifigance of the verses in Ezekiel and also Psalm 48 "Walk about Zion, go round about her, tell the towers thereof, mark ye well her bulwarks and consider her palaces, that you may tell it to the generation to come."

We measure the foundations and the fittings so that in our generation we do our part to open the portal always wider so that that which is hidden may be revealed and all that is darkness can be drawn into the light.

[eaglesway]

Christ first appeared to Saul outside Israel on the road to Damascus; Barnabas and Saul, who became known as Paul, were severed by the holy spirit in Antioch to evangelize the dispersion as well as the nations, and there was an agreement at the Jerusalem conference among the Jews that Paul would evangelize the nations without requiring them to be subject to the law as the Jews still saw themselves as being. I agree we're one in Christ Jesus with Jewish believers, but there is a reference in scripture to the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels.

"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, "Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)

"Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith. Now they tarried no brief time with the disciples. And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved." Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question. They indeed, then, being sent forward by the ecclesia, passed through Phoenicia as well as Samaria, detailing the turning about of the nations. And they caused great joy to all the brethren. Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them. Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter. Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them, "Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear? But through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved in a manner even as they." Now the entire multitude hushes, and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them. Now after they hush, James answered saying, "Men! Brethren! Hear me! Simeon unfolds how God first visits the nations, to obtain out of them a people for His name. And with this agree the words of the prophets, according as it is written, After these things I will turn back, 'And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen... And its overturned structure will I rebuild, And I will re-erect it...So that those left of mankind should be seeking out the Lord, And all the nations, on them over whom My name is invoked, Is saying the Lord, Who is doing these things.' Known from the eon to the Lord is His work. "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood. For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues." Then it seems good to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole ecclesia, choosing men from among them, to send to Antioch, together with Paul and Barnabas, Judas, called Bar-Sabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, writing through their hand as follows: "The apostles and the elders and the brethren, to the brethren at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, out of the nations: Rejoice! "Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom we gave no assignment, it seems good to us, in coming to be of one accord, choosing men, to send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who give up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have, then, commissioned Judas and Silas, and they are reporting the same by word. For it seems good to the holy spirit and to us in nothing to be placing one more burden on you save these essentials: to be abstaining from idol sacrifices, and blood, and what is strangled and prostitution; from which, carefully keeping yourselves, you will be well engaged. Farewell!" They indeed, then, being dismissed, came down to Antioch, and gathering the multitude, hand them the epistle. Now, reading it, they rejoiced at the consolation. (Acts 14:27-15:31)

"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision--only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." (Galatians 2:7-10)

But later in Galatians it also says...

"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Galatians 5:6)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15)

And Colossians says...

"there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ" (Colossians 3:11)

So I think a distinction was made between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels in the early days, but I agree that there is no distinction between Jews and those of us of the nations in the body of Christ. I think the problem is that the church distorts the evangel today the same way that Paul warned against in the epistle to the Galatians.

"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)

That's why I'm unchurched and content to be a member of the ecclesia, the body of Christ, not subject to the Hebrew law or traditions and not subject to the church law or traditions. I believe scripture is sufficient, and I fellowship wherever whenever I can with my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of whether they're Jewish or not, Covenant Theology believers or Dispensationalist believers, believers in universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) and the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) or even misinformed believers in torture in fire forever. I believe we're all one in spirit with Christ and the Father, and all those differences will someday disappear when God is all in all.

Wonderful, edifying post!

[Seth]

Christ first appeared to Saul outside Israel on the road to Damascus; Barnabas and Saul, who became known as Paul, were severed by the holy spirit in Antioch to evangelize the dispersion as well as the nations, and there was an agreement at the Jerusalem conference among the Jews that Paul would evangelize the nations without requiring them to be subject to the law as the Jews still saw themselves as being. I agree we're one in Christ Jesus with Jewish believers, but there is a reference in scripture to the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels.

"Now, at their ministering to the Lord and fasting, the holy spirit said, "Sever, by all means, to Me Barnabas and Saul for the work to which I have called them." (Acts 13:2)

"Now coming along and gathering the ecclesia, they informed them of whatever God does with them, and that He opens to the nations a door of faith. Now they tarried no brief time with the disciples. And some, coming down from Judea, taught the brethren that, "If you should not be circumcised after the custom of Moses, you can not be saved." Now as Paul and Barnabas come to have no slight commotion and questioning with them, they prescribe that Paul and Barnabas and some others from among them are to go up to the apostles and elders in Jerusalem concerning this question. They indeed, then, being sent forward by the ecclesia, passed through Phoenicia as well as Samaria, detailing the turning about of the nations. And they caused great joy to all the brethren. Now coming along into Jerusalem, they were received by the ecclesia and the apostles and the elders. Besides, they inform them of whatever God does with them. Yet some from the sect of the Pharisees who have believed rise up, saying that they must be circumcised, besides charging them to keep the law of Moses. Now the apostles and the elders were gathered to see about this matter. Now, there coming to be much questioning, rising, Peter said to them, "Men! Brethren! You are versed in the fact that from the days at the beginning God chooses among you, that through my mouth the nations are to hear the word of the evangel and believe. And God, the Knower of hearts, testifies to them, giving the holy spirit according as to us also, and in nothing discriminates between us and them, cleansing their hearts by faith. Why, then, are you now trying God, by placing a yoke on the neck of the disciples which neither our fathers nor we are strong enough to bear? But through the grace of the Lord Jesus we are believing, to be saved in a manner even as they." Now the entire multitude hushes, and they heard Barnabas and Paul unfolding whatever signs and miracles God does among the nations through them. Now after they hush, James answered saying, "Men! Brethren! Hear me! Simeon unfolds how God first visits the nations, to obtain out of them a people for His name. And with this agree the words of the prophets, according as it is written, After these things I will turn back, 'And I will rebuild the tabernacle of David which has fallen... And its overturned structure will I rebuild, And I will re-erect it...So that those left of mankind should be seeking out the Lord, And all the nations, on them over whom My name is invoked, Is saying the Lord, Who is doing these things.' Known from the eon to the Lord is His work. "Wherefore I decide not to be harassing those from the nations who are turning back to God, but to write an epistle to them to be abstaining from ceremonial pollution with idols, and prostitution, and what is strangled, and blood. For Moses, from ancient generations, city by city, has those who are heralding him, being read on every sabbath in the synagogues." Then it seems good to the apostles and the elders, together with the whole ecclesia, choosing men from among them, to send to Antioch, together with Paul and Barnabas, Judas, called Bar-Sabbas, and Silas, leading men among the brethren, writing through their hand as follows: "The apostles and the elders and the brethren, to the brethren at Antioch and Syria and Cilicia, out of the nations: Rejoice! "Since, in fact, we hear that some coming out from us disturb you with words, dismantling your souls, whom we gave no assignment, it seems good to us, in coming to be of one accord, choosing men, to send them to you with our beloved Barnabas and Paul, men who give up their souls for the name of our Lord Jesus Christ. We have, then, commissioned Judas and Silas, and they are reporting the same by word. For it seems good to the holy spirit and to us in nothing to be placing one more burden on you save these essentials: to be abstaining from idol sacrifices, and blood, and what is strangled and prostitution; from which, carefully keeping yourselves, you will be well engaged. Farewell!" They indeed, then, being dismissed, came down to Antioch, and gathering the multitude, hand them the epistle. Now, reading it, they rejoiced at the consolation. (Acts 14:27-15:31)

"But, on the contrary, perceiving that I have been entrusted with the evangel of the Uncircumcision, according as Peter of the Circumcision (for He Who operates in Peter for the apostleship of the Circumcision operates in me also for the nations), and, knowing the grace which is being given to me, James and Cephas and John, who are supposed to be pillars, give to me and Barnabas the right hand of fellowship, that we, indeed, are to be for the nations, yet they for the Circumcision--only that we may be remembering the poor, which same thing I endeavor also to do." (Galatians 2:7-10)

But later in Galatians it also says...

"For whoever are baptized into Christ, put on Christ, in Whom there is no Jew nor yet Greek, there is no slave nor yet free, there is no male and female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus." (Galatians 3:27,28)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision is availing anything, nor uncircumcision, but faith, operating through love." (Galatians 5:6)

"For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision is anything, but a new creation." (Galatians 6:15)

And Colossians says...

"there is no Greek and Jew, Circumcision and Uncircumcision, barbarian, Scythian, slave, freeman, but all and in all is Christ" (Colossians 3:11)

So I think a distinction was made between the Circumcision and Uncircumcision evangels in the early days, but I agree that there is no distinction between Jews and those of us of the nations in the body of Christ. I think the problem is that the church distorts the evangel today the same way that Paul warned against in the epistle to the Galatians.

"I am marveling that thus, swiftly, you are transferred from that which calls you in the grace of Christ, to a different evangel, which is not another, except it be that some who are disturbing you want also to distort the evangel of Christ. But if ever we also, or a messenger out of heaven, should be bringing an evangel to you beside that which we bring to you, let him be anathema!" (Galatians 1:6-8)

That's why I'm unchurched and content to be a member of the ecclesia, the body of Christ, not subject to the Hebrew law or traditions and not subject to the church law or traditions. I believe scripture is sufficient, and I fellowship wherever whenever I can with my brothers and sisters in Christ regardless of whether they're Jewish or not, Covenant Theology believers or Dispensationalist believers, believers in universal reconciliation (Colossians 1:20) and the salvation of all mankind (1 Timothy 4:10) or even misinformed believers in torture in fire forever. I believe we're all one in spirit with Christ and the Father, and all those differences will someday disappear when God is all in all.

While I agree that the ultimate reconciliation of man shall occur, I don't believe that there ever was a difference in content toward any race concerning the a Gospel. To me, "evangel of the circumcision" is like saying "the vanilla ice cream of the circumcision."  The ice cream comes from the same source and is the same stuff, but one set of Apostles takes it to one group, while the others take it to another group. I don't believe that the Jewish believers were ever ordered to maintain the Law as mixed with Grace, but that all believers were under the same grace.

Comparing James to Paul:

Titus 2:11
11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men, 12instructing (paiduo - chastening) us to deny ungodliness and worldly desires and to live sensibly, righteously and godly in the present age, 13looking for the blessed hope and the appearing of the glory of our great God and Savior, Christ Jesus, 14who gave Himself for us to redeem us from every lawless deed, and to purify for Himself a people for His own possession, zealous for good deeds.

James 1
21 So get rid of all the filth and evil in your lives, and humbly accept the word God has planted in your hearts, for it has the power to save your souls.

Both James and Paul talked about the healing from sin according to an inward manifestation of the Word. I don't believe any of it had to do with following the letter for Jewish believers, and grace alone for Gentiles. I believe both were under Titus 2:11 grace alone (no letter) at all times.

[eaglesway]

The effect of the gospel on Jews is different than the effect of the gospel upon Gentiles(especially then) because the gentiles did not need the Law deconstructed in their lives. Therefore Paul had to apply the gospel differently, focusing on different aspects of the truth of Christ crucified, than he did with gentiles. One gospel, one truth, but some wide varieties of application, imo.

[Seth]

Application does not mean mixing grace with law in my opinion. The law is always a ministration of death, for both Jew or Gentile.