On some much of the word that is being expressed of The Kingdom message I am in line with. Yet on some, I have not found a witness in the Word of God. This subject I am about to raise is one that I have not received witness to in the Word. Much is said about it using words that I do not find in the Bible, I see why and how the expressions are used, in me (my mind) but I do not find evidence that it is so. I post this in hopes that I may receive confirmation or? I realize that I've asked this before I hope you will bear with me.
Much is said in the world of Christianity about it. I have come to believe that just about everything that is produced by orthodox Christianity and religion is fabricated for itchy ears, control, and enlargement of a congregation [and money]. From many posts on this site that has been affirmed.
The phrases "spiritual body/bodies" and "glorified body/bodies," I cannot find in the Bible. Yet much is said about the subject and that we will receive at a future time. With the exception for ICor. 15:44 and he speaks of a body or "one body."
1Co 15:51 Behold, I tell you a mystery: We all shall not sleep, but we shall all be changed,
Mystery: a secret (through the idea of silence imposed by invitation) so this mystery is something that has invitation to its value.
"but we shall all be changed," Changed: to make different from a primary word; "else."
That is "different."
1Co 15:52 in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
In that moment....we shall be made different...something else.
Paul in no way does not speak of a "spiritual body" that we will be changed to, nor does he speak of a "glorified body." He speaks of being "changed" to something different.
What we are changed to I believe as it is said by Paul.
1Co 12:20 But now they are many members, but one body.
Eph 4:3 endeavoring to keep the unity of the spirit with the tie of peace:
Eph 4:4 one body and one spirit, according as you were called also with one expectation of your calling;"
Eph 4:5 one Lord, one faith, one baptism,
Eph 4:6 one God and Father of all, Who is over all and through all and in all."
I believe that we, those who are growing in Christ, perhaps, feel there is going to be some kind of individuality when we are changed from this many member body when we are changed to ONE BODY.
Thank you. Peace and Love Through Jesus
phi 3:21 who will transform these humble bodies of ours 1 into the likeness of his glorious body by means of that power by which he is able to subject all things to himself.
Is that just ONE body?
Philippians 3:21
(ASV) who shall fashion anew the body of our humiliation, that it may be conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working whereby he is able even to subject all things unto himself.
(CLV) Who will transfigure the body of our humilation, to conform it to the body of His glory, in accord with the operation which enables Him even to subject all to Himself."
(KJV) Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
(WNT) who, in the exercise of the power which He has even to subject all things to Himself, will transform this body of our humiliation until it resembles His own glorious body.
(YLT) who shall transform the body of our humiliation to its becoming conformed to the body of his glory, according to the working of his power, even to subject to himself the all things.
I think I misunderstood your question. And I'm still not quite getting it. Are you asking about individual bodies compared to the (collective) body of christ? Are you saying that there is no individual glorious bodies?
If those are the questions then :dontknow:
Hi Micah,
I am nt sure I understand what you are wondering about,but here goes. Yes,we will be changed when we put on immortality[glorious bodies] we will
be like the angels. Individual inheritances or lots in the land of Israel[promise land] forshadow the same principle about our eternal inheritance in heaven[real promised land]
We are ALL IN ALL IN GOD AND ARE ONE WITH HIM AND HIS SON-...as part of this greater body,we will all have our prepared places in God and Jesus
and will fufill the roles He has specifically prepared for us[or prepared us for] ONE FAMILY UNIT..with individual members,with individual roles and functions
ALL contributing to the greater good of the family unit.
In one way, we are all already changing...from glory to glory as we look upon Him. Enoch,when taken to the presence of God was changed intoa . Glorious garment
and Father explained that with a twinkle/GLEAM in HIS EYE WE RECEIVE A NEW DELIGHTFUL NATURE .
First, Heb 11:13 These all died in faith,
"Enoch,when taken to the presence of God " I find no place in the Bible that reads such a statement. According to the Bible in Heb. chp. 11 they all died.
Again, " We are ALL IN ALL IN GOD AND ARE ONE WITH HIM AND HIS SON-...as part of this greater body" what "greater" body is this? Greater than the body of Christ?
Also, "ONE FAMILY UNIT..with individual members,with individual roles and functions" This is found where, about this individuality?
Yes I agree totally we are being changed from glory to glory!
"and Father explained that with a twinkle/GLEAM in HIS EYE WE RECEIVE A NEW DELIGHTFUL NATURE ." Here what Paul says
1 Corinthians 15:52
(ASV) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(CLV) in an instant, in the twinkle of an eye, at the last trump. For He will be trumpeting, and the dead will be roused incorruptible, and we shall be changed."
(KJV) In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
(WNT) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the sounding of the last trumpet; for the trumpet will sound, and the dead will be raised incapable of decay, and *we* shall be changed.
(YLT) in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, in the last trumpet, for it shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we--we shall be changed:
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(Joh 7:39)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(Joh 20:17)
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:32-33)
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44)
I think that we are living stones, joined to the chief corner stone, growing into a habitation of God in the Spirit-individual stones fitly joined together becoming also at the same time one temple
Branches in one vine
Members of one body
Beloved, it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know this, when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.
In other words, we know some things, but not as much as we think we kno, and some things we see through a glass darkly, and so it will remain because the Lord made it so, lest we boast against one another in our "knowledge". Peace y'all, John
I like that :bigGrin: For we have not come this way before, we are learning, maturing in Him. That's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
Members of one body
Beloved, it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know this, when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.
In other words, we know some things, but not as much as we think we kno, and some things we see through a glass darkly," EW
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 27, 2011, 02:26:46 AM
I think I misunderstood your question. And I'm still not quite getting it. Are you asking about individual bodies compared to the (collective) body of christ? Are you saying that there is no individual glorious bodies?
If those are the questions then :dontknow:
Yes. at this point I do believe there is no individual glorious bodies.
Quote from: sheila on July 27, 2011, 03:00:46 AM
Hi Micah,
I am nt sure I understand what you are wondering about,but here goes. Yes,we will be changed when we put on immortality[glorious bodies] we will
be like the angels. Individual inheritances or lots in the land of Israel[promise land] forshadow the same principle about our eternal inheritance in heaven[real promised land]
We are ALL IN ALL IN GOD AND ARE ONE WITH HIM AND HIS SON-...as part of this greater body,we will all have our prepared places in God and Jesus
and will fufill the roles He has specifically prepared for us[or prepared us for] ONE FAMILY UNIT..with individual members,with individual roles and functions
ALL contributing to the greater good of the family unit.
In one way, we are all already changing...from glory to glory as we look upon Him. Enoch,when taken to the presence of God was changed intoa . Glorious garment
and Father explained that with a twinkle/GLEAM in HIS EYE WE RECEIVE A NEW DELIGHTFUL NATURE .
"Enoch,when taken to the presence of God..." shelia
Joh 3:13 and
no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
Quote from: sheila on July 27, 2011, 03:00:46 AM
Hi Micah,
I am nt sure I understand what you are wondering about,but here goes. Yes,we will be changed when we put on immortality[glorious bodies] we will
be like the angels. Individual inheritances or lots in the land of Israel[promise land] forshadow the same principle about our eternal inheritance in heaven[real promised land]
We are ALL IN ALL IN GOD AND ARE ONE WITH HIM AND HIS SON-...as part of this greater body,we will all have our prepared places in God and Jesus
and will fufill the roles He has specifically prepared for us[or prepared us for] ONE FAMILY UNIT..with individual members,with individual roles and functions
ALL contributing to the greater good of the family unit.
In one way, we are all already changing...from glory to glory as we look upon Him. Enoch,when taken to the presence of God was changed intoa . Glorious garment
and Father explained that with a twinkle/GLEAM in HIS EYE WE RECEIVE A NEW DELIGHTFUL NATURE .
Amen! :icon_flower:
Quote from: MicahThat's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
We are members of one body now--the human race, the body of Adam. You and I have the same body, Micah, that's why doctors can go to medical school and learn how to treat both of us for heart disease or cancer or the flu. But, we are still individuals, with our own peculiarities, because God made us that way. Different but the same.
So it will be in our glorified bodies.
Agreed.
We will still be who we are but Christ sits on the throne of our mind, will, emotions and senses.
God reigns!
This is an interesting video. Wonder what y'all think of it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=h3DvFkY8bnA&feature=player_embedded
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
Quote from: MicahThat's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
We are members of one body now--the human race, the body of Adam. You and I have the same body, Micah, that's why doctors can go to medical school and learn how to treat both of us for heart disease or cancer or the flu. But, we are still individuals, with our own peculiarities, because God made us that way. Different but the same.
So it will be in our glorified bodies.
And I can find scripture and verse for "So it will be in our glorified bodies." Where?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 05:46:04 AM
Agreed.
We will still be who we are but Christ sits on the throne of our mind, will, emotions and senses.
God reigns!
Then we are robots? All walking around doing the the things as everybody else.
I believe our individuality is for this earth realm. If we are all one Christ as One body why the need for seperation ?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 06:38:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
Quote from: MicahThat's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
We are members of one body now--the human race, the body of Adam. You and I have the same body, Micah, that's why doctors can go to medical school and learn how to treat both of us for heart disease or cancer or the flu. But, we are still individuals, with our own peculiarities, because God made us that way. Different but the same.
So it will be in our glorified bodies.
And I can find scripture and verse for "So it will be in our glorified bodies." Where?
All over the Bible. I'm not sure what you are thinking is going to happen. You think you are going to be a fingernail on one gigantic body, or we are all going to look like Christ and be exactly the same, or what?
8And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not:
for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
--Rev 22
Robots? Not at all.
Just perfection.
Living permanently.
Operating out of the realm of the spirit instead of sin, death and decay.
For some it still believed that we are gonna have individual mansions or little cabins when we get to heaven, but we have learned better. I reason that man continues to compare earthy thought with earthy thought.
Col 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.
Joh 14:1 `Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also in me believe;
Joh 14:2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
Joh 14:3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be;
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in Me."
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many abodes; yet if not I would have told you, for I am going to make ready a place for you."
Joh 14:3 And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be."
Myself: G1683 emautou emautō emauton; of myself: - me, mine own (self), myself [from G1700 emou; of me: - me, mine, my. and G846 autos; From the particle αὖ au through the idea of a baffling wind; backward);
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 04:45:48 AM
Quote from: redhotmagma on July 27, 2011, 02:26:46 AM
I think I misunderstood your question. And I'm still not quite getting it. Are you asking about individual bodies compared to the (collective) body of christ? Are you saying that there is no individual glorious bodies?
If those are the questions then :dontknow:
Yes. at this point I do believe there is no individual glorious bodies.
What about both? If someone becomes part of the body/'church' of Jesus that person automaicly recieves a new body?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 06:38:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
Quote from: MicahThat's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
We are members of one body now--the human race, the body of Adam. You and I have the same body, Micah, that's why doctors can go to medical school and learn how to treat both of us for heart disease or cancer or the flu. But, we are still individuals, with our own peculiarities, because God made us that way. Different but the same.
So it will be in our glorified bodies.
And I can find scripture and verse for "So it will be in our glorified bodies." Where?
Philippians 3:20–21 ESV
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
I think there are also verse that speak indirectly about glorified bodies.
Our bodies, without exception, get old and die. They won't last 'for ever'. Not even God can stop that because that's the way the body is designed. It can only be stopped by a new design :2c:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 08:33:38 AM
For some it still believed that we are gonna have individual mansions or little cabins when we get to heaven, but we have learned better. I reason that man continues to compare earthy thought with earthy thought.
Col 3:1 If then ye were raised together with Christ, seek the things that are above, where Christ is, seated on the right hand of God.
Col 3:2 Set your mind on the things that are above, not on the things that are upon the earth.
Joh 14:1 `Let not your heart be troubled, believe in God, also in me believe;
Joh 14:2 in the house of my Father are many mansions; and if not, I would have told you; I go on to prepare a place for you;
Joh 14:3 and if I go on and prepare for you a place, again do I come, and will receive you unto myself, that where I am ye also may be;
Joh 14:1 Let not your heart be disturbed. Believe in God, and believe in Me."
Joh 14:2 In My Father's house are many abodes; yet if not I would have told you, for I am going to make ready a place for you."
Joh 14:3 And if I should be going and making ready a place for you, I am coming again and I will be taking you along to Myself, that where I am, you also may be."
Myself: G1683 emautou emautō emauton; of myself: - me, mine own (self), myself [from G1700 emou; of me: - me, mine, my. and G846 autos; From the particle αὖ au through the idea of a baffling wind; backward);
Which means what to you? To me it means we will be living where he is. And, yes, it will be a glorious place to live. I've already seen my mansion in a dream. :happygrin:
Whither thou goest, I will go. [Ruth 1:16]
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
--2 Cor 5:1
Is the word "if" important here?
What does "if" mean?
a] Something uncertain?
b] A fact just like when God wants something it's a fact.
BTW eternal house = age-during house....
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 05:56:25 PM
Is the word "if" important here?
Interesting.
I think Paul knew some would be alive when this happens. Therefore, the tent would be transformed, not destroyed.
BTW, we have a new date to look forward to: tabernacles, this year, Sept 28, 29, 30 [and maybe the 27th, the day before tabernacles, too]. :winkgrin:
Also,..
Joh 14:2 In my Father's house are many mansions; if it were not so, I would have told you; I go to prepare a place for you;
"mansions"
G3438
μονή
monē
mon-ay'
From G3306; a staying, that is, residence (the act or the place): - abode, mansion.
Now we know that if the earthly tent we live in is destroyed, we have a building from God, an eternal house in heaven, not built by human hands.
--2 Cor 5:1
[eternal] "house" [in heaven]
G3614
οἰκία
oikia
oy-kee'-ah
From G3624; properly residence (abstractly), but usually (concretely) an abode (literally or figuratively); by implication a family (especially domestics): - home, house (-hold).
King James says, if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved..
"tabernacle"
G4636
σκῆνος
skēnos
skay'-nos
From G4633; a hut or temporary residence, that is, (figuratively) the human body (as the abode of the spirit): - tabernacle.
In other words, my spirit is now living temporarily in a tent, which is the tabernacle of God [in the wilderness].
By faith he became a sojourner in the land of promise, as in a land not his own, dwelling in tents, with Isaac and Jacob, the heirs with him of the same promise:
For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.
--Heb 11
Hebrews 11;5
BY FAITH ENOCH WAS TAKEN FROM THIS LIFE,SO THAT HE DID NOT EXPIERENCE DEATH;HE COULD NOT BE FOUND
BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM AWAY. FOR BEFORE HE WAS TAKEN HE WAS COMMENDED AS ONE WHO PLEASED GOD
Quote from: sheila on July 27, 2011, 07:18:10 PM
Hebrews 11;5
BY FAITH ENOCH WAS TAKEN FROM THIS LIFE,SO THAT HE DID NOT EXPIERENCE DEATH;HE COULD NOT BE FOUND
BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM AWAY. FOR BEFORE HE WAS TAKEN HE WAS COMMENDED AS ONE WHO PLEASED GOD
Read further Heb 11:13
These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 27, 2011, 08:57:07 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 06:38:54 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
Quote from: MicahThat's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
We are members of one body now--the human race, the body of Adam. You and I have the same body, Micah, that's why doctors can go to medical school and learn how to treat both of us for heart disease or cancer or the flu. But, we are still individuals, with our own peculiarities, because God made us that way. Different but the same.
So it will be in our glorified bodies.
And I can find scripture and verse for "So it will be in our glorified bodies." Where?
Philippians 3:20–21 ESV
20 But our citizenship is in heaven, and from it we await a Savior, the Lord Jesus Christ, 21 who will transform our lowly body to be like his glorious body, by the power that enables him even to subject all things to himself.
I think there are also verse that speak indirectly about glorified bodies.
Our bodies, without exception, get old and die. They won't last 'for ever'. Not even God can stop that because that's the way the body is designed. It can only be stopped by a new design :2c:
Yes, The Bible says we will be changed, transformed, transfigued.
Ok, this is the way Im understanding what most of you are saying, we will receive individual glorified spiritual bodies (abodes) when we all get to heaven, is this what is being said?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 07:31:25 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 27, 2011, 07:18:10 PM
Hebrews 11;5
BY FAITH ENOCH WAS TAKEN FROM THIS LIFE,SO THAT HE DID NOT EXPIERENCE DEATH;HE COULD NOT BE FOUND
BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM AWAY. FOR BEFORE HE WAS TAKEN HE WAS COMMENDED AS ONE WHO PLEASED GOD
Read further Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
He's referring to those starting in Heb 11:7. By faith, by faith, by faith...
Enoch was translated by God.
[By faith Enoch was]
"translated"G3346
μετατίθημι
metatithēmimet-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087;
to transfer, that is,
(literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively)
change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: -
carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
..."when we all get to heaven" <——— Hollywood fairy tale.
Heaven is not a place. It is a state of being, a spiritual condition. Jesus was in heaven while on earth.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 08:08:14 PM
..."when we all get to heaven" <——— Hollywood fairy tale.
Heaven is not a place. It is a state of being, a spiritual condition. Jesus was in heaven while on earth.
I wouldn't go that far--hollywood fairy tale--because we will need a place to live until the Millenium, when Christ establishes his kingdom on earth.
But, yes, it is also what you said.
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 08:02:27 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 07:31:25 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 27, 2011, 07:18:10 PM
Hebrews 11;5
BY FAITH ENOCH WAS TAKEN FROM THIS LIFE,SO THAT HE DID NOT EXPIERENCE DEATH;HE COULD NOT BE FOUND
BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM AWAY. FOR BEFORE HE WAS TAKEN HE WAS COMMENDED AS ONE WHO PLEASED GOD
Read further Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
He's referring to those starting in Heb 11:7. By faith, by faith, by faith...
Enoch was translated by God.
[By faith Enoch was] "translated"
G3346
μετατίθημι
metatithēmi
met-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
Well, here again its proven that the spoken word of Jesus is perhaps ilrelevent when He said....Joh 3:13 and
no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven. "Heaven is not a place. It is a state of being, a spiritual condition. Jesus was in heaven while on earth." Beloved
Amen :bigGrin:
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 08:15:15 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 08:02:27 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 07:31:25 PM
Quote from: sheila on July 27, 2011, 07:18:10 PM
Hebrews 11;5
BY FAITH ENOCH WAS TAKEN FROM THIS LIFE,SO THAT HE DID NOT EXPIERENCE DEATH;HE COULD NOT BE FOUND
BECAUSE GOD HAD TAKEN HIM AWAY. FOR BEFORE HE WAS TAKEN HE WAS COMMENDED AS ONE WHO PLEASED GOD
Read further Heb 11:13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them and greeted them from afar, and having confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
He's referring to those starting in Heb 11:7. By faith, by faith, by faith...
Enoch was translated by God.
[By faith Enoch was] "translated"
G3346
μετατίθημι
metatithēmi
met-at-ith'-ay-mee
From G3326 and G5087; to transfer, that is, (literally) transport, (by implication) exchange, (reflexively) change sides, or (figuratively) pervert: - carry over, change, remove, translate, turn.
Well, here again its proven that the spoken word of Jesus is perhaps ilrelevent when He said....Joh 3:13 and no one hath gone up to the heaven, except he who out of the heaven came down--the Son of Man who is in the heaven.
"Heaven is not a place. It is a state of being, a spiritual condition. Jesus was in heaven while on earth." Beloved
Amen :bigGrin:
Micah even Paul said he went to heaven--whether in or out of the body, he did not know, only God knows.
If you think you see an apparent contradiction between two scriptures, it means you are not understanding one of them.
Amen
Quote from: eaglesway on July 27, 2011, 03:56:41 AM
(But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)
(Joh 7:39)
Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(Joh 20:17)
This Jesus hath God raised up, whereof we all are witnesses. Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
(Act 2:32-33)
But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come? Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die: And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain: But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body. All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds. There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another. There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory. So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption: It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power: It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
(1Co 15:35-44)
I think that we are living stones, joined to the chief corner stone, growing into a habitation of God in the Spirit-individual stones fitly joined together becoming also at the same time one temple
Branches in one vine
Members of one body
Beloved, it does not yet appear what we shall be, but we know this, when He appears we shall be like Him for we shall see Him as He is.
In other words, we know some things, but not as much as we think we kno, and some things we see through a glass darkly, and so it will remain because the Lord made it so, lest we boast against one another in our "knowledge". Peace y'all, John
I think some of the faith, the champions e.g Mathew, Mark , Luke, John, Paul will receive greater glory than most christians. This is the prize they receive for being Godly. Jesus said to store riches in heaven. Those who are diligently labouring for the gospel of Jesus Christ will have abundance of treasures in heaven. We cannot fathom what these treasures are as Paul said, no man knows what God has prepared for them that love Him.
But the parable of the workers in the vineyard shows that all of Christs sheep in this age will receive the same reward of everlasting life, because I believe that to be the basic wage and payment of being a believer, but any additional works are paid with heavenly treasure.
Ezekiel 2;1
He said to me, 'SON OF MAN,STAND UP ON YOUR FEET' AND I WILL SPEAK tO YOU"v 3 SON OF MAN. ch 3 SON OF MAN eat what is
before you.....and so on and so on Ezekiel ch 47;6........AS HE SPOKE THE SPIRIT CAME INTO ME AND RAISED ME TO MY FEET
now consider...just 'what/who,is the SON OF MAN..Mark 9;9 the transgiguration.......AS they were coming down the mountain,Jesus gave them
orders NOT TO TELL anyone what they had seen until the SON OF MAN had risen from the dead...they kept the matter to themselves,
discussing what 'rising from the dead meant
Just want to say, you guys are doing a FANTASTIC job discussing something on which there is disagreement. That's what we're after here - discussing, reasoning, while still respecting each other, "in honor preferring one another". I can learn from your behavior here. :mblush: No insults, insinuations, name-calling. :thumbsup: Great job!
"Micah even Paul said he went to heaven--whether in or out of the body, he did not know, only God knows.
If you think you see an apparent contradiction between two scriptures, it means you are not understanding one of them." Molly
Do you understand in the spirit? And just where do you see or understand heaven 1,2,or 3 to be?
As for Mat 17:9 And as they are coming down from the mount, Jesus charged them, saying, `Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.' vision=something gazed at.
May I ask why it would be I, who would be here..."If you think you see an apparent contradiction between two scriptures, it means you are not understanding one of them" rather than say...... you?
Psalms 144;3
..........O'LORD WHAT IS MAN.....THAT YOU CARE FOR HIM,
the SON OF MAN ....THAT YOU THINK OF HIM
..........MAN IS LIKE A BREATH....HIS DAYS ARE LIKE A FLEETING SHADOW
Reach down your hand from on high...deliver me and rescue me from the mighty waters...from foreigners whose mouth are full of lies
the vision was a prophecy of what transfiguration/change would occur when the SON OF MAN out of the dead may rise......the very body/glory that is due
all mankind.
Amen! :bigGrin: Change!
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 05:30:24 AM
Quote from: MicahThat's why I wonder why we teach as tho there is an individual quality that we have when we are changed.
"Branches in one vine
We are members of one body now--the human race, the body of Adam. You and I have the same body, Micah, that's why doctors can go to medical school and learn how to treat both of us for heart disease or cancer or the flu. But, we are still individuals, with our own peculiarities, because God made us that way. Different but the same.
So it will be in our glorified bodies.
But see there it is again. "So it will be in our glorified bodies." What is our glorified bpdy?
Glorified=G1392 to render (or esteem) glorious (in a wide application): - (make) glorify (-ious), full of (have) glory, honour, magnify
2Th 1:10 when He may come to be glorified in his saints G1740 endoxazō to glorify: - glorify.
Quote from: Micah`Say to no one the vision, till the Son of Man out of the dead may rise.' vision=something gazed at.
Something gazed at that is real, even though it might not be understood at the level of reality where most people exist.
"vision"G3705
ὅραμα
horama
hor'-am-ah
From G3708; something gazed at, that is,
a spectacle (especially supernatural): -
sight, vision.
1And Moses went up from the plains of Moab unto the mountain of
Nebo, to the top of Pisgah, that is over against Jericho.
And the LORD shewed him all the land of Gilead, unto Dan,
2And all Naphtali, and the land of Ephraim, and Manasseh, and all the land of Judah, unto the utmost sea,
3And the south, and the plain of the valley of Jericho, the city of palm trees, unto Zoar.
4And the LORD said unto him,
This is the land which I sware unto Abraham, unto Isaac, and unto Jacob, saying, I will give it unto thy seed: I have caused thee to see it with thine eyes, but thou shalt not go over thither. 5So Moses the servant of the LORD died there in the land of Moab, according to the word of the LORD.
--Deut 34
We see the LORD on the mountain with Moses showing him what is to come, a vision of the promised land. What was Moses allowed to see? Just a bunch of empty land?
If we stand behind them on the mountain and look with them, what will we see? We will see what they are looking at--the flip side of the vision, being watched from the position of those already in the promised land.
As the men watched, Jesus' appearance was transformed so that his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.
And behold, there appeared to them Moses and Elijah, talking with him.--Mat 17
Quote from: MicahWhat is our glorified bpdy?
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
a glimpse of it--
his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
Quote from: MicahWhat is our glorified bpdy?
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
a glimpse of it--
his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.
Again, I understand glorified, so when we are vivified(a life giving spirit) we become just as Him?
"
his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." You do understand this to be spiritual yes.
I have been studying all those verses and others as well. I see and understand the many member body that Paul speaks of; those who make up the the body of Christ now here on earth. How it must be the whole body working together as one. Yet this Body of many, here To Day, is to mature and grow into The Christ (Son) the Overcomer and for that it will be the mind of Christ Jesus(one mind) that must be fully grown in that body. So there are no individual minds working in this body, only one. So when we are ALL in ALL where is the individual in all this?
I dont know, Im with you all, thats what Ive been taught and have accepted a long time. But it just seems the Lord is taking a people that will HEAR (not saying thats me especially) to a higher understanding of ONE.. when all is finished or complete. I am probably being misunderstood.
Peace and Love Through Jesus
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 11:20:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
Quote from: MicahWhat is our glorified bpdy?
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
a glimpse of it--
his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.
Again, I understand glorified, so when we are vivified(a life giving spirit) we become just as Him?
"his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." You do understand this to be spiritual yes.
We become just as him in body, filled with the HS, given the mind of Christ, to the saving of our souls.
understand it to be spiritual? What do you mean? I understand it to be literal.
The life of our current bodies is in the blood--for which cause you are always accusing me of being transient--in danger of speedy disappearance--like the animals.
The life of our glorified bodies will be in the Spirit.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory. --1Cor 15
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
No one takes it from me, but I lay it down of my own accord. I have authority to lay it down, and I have authority to take it up again. This charge I have received from my Father."
--John 10:18
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
YLT2 Corinthians 51 For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands--
age-during--in the heavens,
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 27, 2011, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
YLT2 Corinthians 5
1 For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands--age-during--in the heavens,
ww, do you think this 'house' in the heavens will be replaced with glorified bodies at the end of the age?
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 11:33:20 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 27, 2011, 11:20:41 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
Quote from: MicahWhat is our glorified bpdy?
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
a glimpse of it--
his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light.
Again, I understand glorified, so when we are vivified(a life giving spirit) we become just as Him?
"his face shone like the sun, and his clothes became as white as light." You do understand this to be spiritual yes.
We become just as him in body, filled with the HS, given the mind of Christ, to the saving of our souls.
understand it to be spiritual? What do you mean? I understand it to be literal.
The life of our current bodies is in the blood--for which cause you are always accusing me of being transient--in danger of speedy disappearance--like the animals.
The life of our glorified bodies will be in the Spirit.
54So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
--1Cor 15
"understand it to be spiritual? What do you mean? I understand it to be literal." Why is it literal?
Lev 17:11
for the soul of the flesh, it is in the blood, and I Myself have assigned it to you to make a propitiatory shelter over your souls on the altar; for the blood, in the soul it makes a propitiatory shelter.
"We become just as him in body, filled with the HS, given the mind of Christ," isnt this a becoming now?
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
Is not a "vivified" a quickening spirit? The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last
Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Thanks for all comments. I think my question has run its course for now Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
Quote from: Micah"We become just as him in body, filled with the HS, given the mind of Christ," isnt this a becoming now?
We now have an earnest of it.
12That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
13In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
14
Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
--Eph 1
"earnest"G728
ἀῤῥαβών
arrhabōn
ar-hrab-ohn'
Of Hebrew origin [H6162];
a pledge, that is, part of the purchase money or property given in advance as security for the rest: - earnest.
We are sealed with the Holy Spirit as His pledge that he will come and redeem us fully. It is the downpayment on our redemption.
But, the adoption [appointing of sons] will not be complete until we are given a glorified body.
Romans 8:23
And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves,
waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 28, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
Is not a "vivified" a quickening spirit? The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Thanks for all comments. I think my question has run its course for now Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
We start out as the first Adam and end up as the second Adam. Yes, the last Adam is a vivifying spirit--able to give Life--and we shall be like him.
it's time Molly.
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 11:54:14 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 27, 2011, 11:46:09 PM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
YLT2 Corinthians 5
1 For we have known that if our earthly house of the tabernacle may be thrown down, a building from God we have, an house not made with hands--age-during--in the heavens,
ww, do you think this 'house' in the heavens will be replaced with glorified bodies at the end of the age?
Maybe that house is the glorified body...
God is spirit. Perhaps a glorified body is just a intermediate step????
Also note there is something "strange" about the verse.
The house is renewed. Not the tabernacle.
During the feast of Tabernacles/Booth the Jews stayed in a tent build of freshly cut (living) twigs/branches/wood. They stayed there for 7 days. On the 7th day they were clean. The reason was that the spirit was/is defiled by the dead body it has lived in.
Just writing this from memory. Could be wrong on details; but I think it's very significant in this thread!
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 07:39:51 AM
The house is renewed. Not the tabernacle.
During the feast of Tabernacles/Booth the Jews stayed in a tent build of freshly cut (living) twigs/branches/wood. They stayed there for 7 days. On the 7th day they were clean. The reason was that the spirit was/is defiled by the dead body it has lived in.
Just writing this from memory. Could be wrong on details; but I think it's very significant in this thread!
:thumbsup:
I'm thinking wherever we live is a house of God,-- whether of the temporary variety [tabernacle] or the more permanent 'eternal house', whether a tent or a temple or a mansion,-- as the abode of the spirit.
"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. " (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
But he was also afraid and said, "What an awesome place this is! It is none other than the house of God, the very gateway to heaven!" [Gen 28:17]
"For we know that if our [earthly house=epigeios oikea] of this [tabernacle=skenos (implies transiency)] were dissolved, we have [a building of God=oikodomē ex theos], an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Remember Solomon's Temple was quarried and cut away from the site, so then when it was erected, it was fitted together silently --signifying the house not made with hands.
The stones used in the construction of the Temple were finished at the quarry, so there was no sound of hammer, ax, or any other iron tool at the building site.
--1Kings 6:7
Quote from: jabcat on July 28, 2011, 07:53:58 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 07:39:51 AM
The house is renewed. Not the tabernacle.
During the feast of Tabernacles/Booth the Jews stayed in a tent build of freshly cut (living) twigs/branches/wood. They stayed there for 7 days. On the 7th day they were clean. The reason was that the spirit was/is defiled by the dead body it has lived in.
Just writing this from memory. Could be wrong on details; but I think it's very significant in this thread!
:thumbsup:
The other thing about the booths they stayed in--IIRC they resembled the open sided tent of David, where the Ark was displayed to all=glorified bodies.
14And David danced before the LORD with all his might; and David was girded with a linen ephod.
15So David and all the house of Israel brought up the ark of the LORD with shouting, and with the sound of the trumpet.
17And they brought in the ark of the LORD, and set it in his place, in the midst of the tabernacle that David had pitched for it: and David offered burnt offerings and peace offerings before the LORD.
18And as soon as David had made an end of offering burnt offerings and peace offerings, he blessed the people in the name of the LORD of hosts.
--2 Sam 6
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 09:11:48 AM
I'm thinking wherever we live is a house of God,-- whether of the temporary variety [tabernacle] or the more permanent 'eternal house',
There is NO eternal house mentioned in the Bible. I know some/many translations like the KJV use the word eternal. But the more literal use "age". The standard aion stuff.
Quotewhether a tent or a temple or a mansion,-- as the abode of the spirit.
Keep in mind that there a TWO 'buildings'
The literal Tabernacle was inside the literal Temple of stone and wood that stood at Jesus' time.
Jesus said His temple (body) would be rebuild in 3 days. He didn't speak about the Tabernacle inside that Temple.
Quote"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. " (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
And do you, Molly, know that the Holy Spirit/God Himself left the Temple.....?
Jewish wrings show that a voice from the Holies of Holies said (around 68AD IIRC) said "hence we depart"
And even if that's a fable it's a fact the HS doesn't live in that Temple anymore because it's totally destroyed.
I think all the literal things that happend with that Temple are a pattern of things to come.
/EDIT Also remember that the Jews lived in the Tabernacle/Booth for 7 days and then left that Tabernacle....
QuoteBut he was also afraid and said, "What an awesome place this is! It is none other than the house of God, the very gateway to heaven!" [Gen 28:17]
Gateways imply trings in transit. Not a permanet dwelling place. The awesome place was a airport terminal to a holiday desination. Not a permanent residence.
:2c:
Quote"For we know that if our [earthly house=epigeios oikea] of this [tabernacle=skenos (implies transiency)] were dissolved, we have [a building of God=oikodomē ex theos], an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Again nothing eternal in this verse. It also contradicts with another verse. This eartly body is not made with hands.
Psalm 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.
For me that verse says God's hands knitted all peopel that were ever born in their mothers womb.
QuoteThe stones used in the construction of the Temple were finished at the quarry, so there was no sound of hammer, ax, or any other iron tool at the building site.
--1Kings 6:7
Only groaning men handling stones of several tons :winkgrin:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 10:39:39 AM
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 09:11:48 AM
I'm thinking wherever we live is a house of God,-- whether of the temporary variety [tabernacle] or the more permanent 'eternal house',
There is NO eternal house mentioned in the Bible. I know some/many translations like the KJV use the word eternal. But the more literal use "age". The standard aion stuff.
Yes, I understand.
Quotewhether a tent or a temple or a mansion,-- as the abode of the spirit.
Keep in mind that there a TWO 'buildings'
The literal Tabernacle was inside the literal Temple of stone and wood that stood at Jesus' time.
Jesus said His temple (body) would be rebuild in 3 days. He didn't speak about the Tabernacle inside that Temple.
No I didn't know the tabernacle was inside the temple at Jesus' time. Got pictures?
Quote"Do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit, who is in you, whom you have received from God? You are not your own; you were bought at a price. Therefore honor God with your body, and in your spirit, which are God's. " (1 Cor. 6:19-20).
And do you, Molly, know that the Holy Spirit/God Himself left the Temple.....?
Jewish wrings show that a voice from the Holies of Holies said (around 68AD IIRC) said "hence we depart"
And even if that's a fable it's a fact the HS doesn't live in that Temple anymore because it's totally destroyed.
I think all the literal things that happend with that Temple are a pattern of things to come.
/EDIT Also remember that the Jews lived in the Tabernacle/Booth for 7 days and then left that Tabernacle....
, I know that. Jesus said to the Jews--"I leave your house desolate'. Not everyone has the indwelling HS either.
QuoteBut he was also afraid and said, "What an awesome place this is! It is none other than the house of God, the very gateway to heaven!" [Gen 28:17]
Gateways imply trings in transit. Not a permanet dwelling place. The awesome place was a airport terminal to a holiday desination. Not a permanent residence.
:2c:
Jacob was in his human body when he said that. Jesus is the gate.
Quote"For we know that if our [earthly house=epigeios oikea] of this [tabernacle=skenos (implies transiency)] were dissolved, we have [a building of God=oikodomē ex theos], an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Again nothing eternal in this verse. It also contradicts with another verse. This eartly body is not made with hands.
Psalm 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.
For me that verse says God's hands knitted all peopel that were ever born in their mothers womb.
I see this as a reference to the stone not cut with hands in Daviel 2, that breaks apart the kingdom of men and fills the earth with the kingdom of God. Reference to a house made by God not men. In other words--not made by human hands
QuoteThe stones used in the construction of the Temple were finished at the quarry, so there was no sound of hammer, ax, or any other iron tool at the building site.
--1Kings 6:7
Only groaning men handling stones of several tons :winkgrin:
They groaned in whispers then or else!
"For we know that if our [earthly house=epigeios oikea] of this [tabernacle=skenos (implies transiency)] were dissolved, we have [a building of God=oikodomē ex theos], an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
This building of God, oikodomē ex theos, implies a large architectural structure which has much more permanence than a tent, much like Solomon's Temple in relation to the Tabernacle--"God's Home".
19Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.
--Eph 2
Molly: "For we know that if our [earthly house=epigeios oikea] of this [tabernacle=skenos (implies transiency)] were dissolved, we have [a building of God=oikodomē ex theos], an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens."
Again nothing eternal in this verse. It also contradicts with another verse. This eartly body is not made with hands.
WW: Psalm 139:13 You made all the delicate, inner parts of my body and knit me together in my mother's womb.
For me that verse says God's hands knitted all peopel that were ever born in their mothers womb.
Molly: I see this as a reference to the stone not cut with hands in Daviel 2, that breaks apart the kingdom of men and fills the earth with the kingdom of God. Reference to a house made by God not men. In other words--not made by human hands
I don't understand that. We are talking about bodies, not real houses. It can be argued people are build by the woman in who's womb the baby grows. The woman made the baby with her own hands. But Pslams clearly tells us God did the building.
So right now we are knitted by God's hands.
This idea of the tabernacle inside the Temple could explain this passage:
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
--Gal 3:27
And this:
While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
--2 Cor 5:4
The idea being that something temporary is being clothed upon by something more permanent and more powerful. Again--the verb used is enduo--to put on as one might put on clothes--sinking into a garment.
Luke 24:49 And I will send upon you the promise of
my Father; but remain in the City of Jerusalem until you are
clothed with power from on high.
Quote from: wwI don't understand that. We are talking about bodies, not real houses.
I think the reference is more to man building it or God building it.
In other words, David wanted to build God a house, --well, it's cute, really, man loving God so much he wants to build him a house---but meanwhile God is building a house for us to live with him together in--a house not made by [human] hands.
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 01:21:07 PM
Quotewhether a tent or a temple or a mansion,-- as the abode of the spirit.
Keep in mind that there a TWO 'buildings'
The literal Tabernacle was inside the literal Temple of stone and wood that stood at Jesus' time.
Jesus said His temple (body) would be rebuild in 3 days. He didn't speak about the Tabernacle inside that Temple.
No I didn't know the tabernacle was inside the temple at Jesus' time. Got pictures?
:mblush: :mblush: I'm always/still mixing up Tabernacle and the Ark of convenant. Not very sure but I think what I wrote above is still true. Looking at a Temple layout we see more "levels of inside"
The convenant is inside the ark.
The Ark is inside the Holy of Holies.
The Holies of Holies is inside the Tabernacle.
The Tabernacle is inside the Temple.
Basicly the Tabernacle is the Temple minus the outer court.
Note that Jesus said He would rebuild the whole Temple complex in 3 days. That's including the outer court.
(http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_YHoM9fbo9Os/TUfo6LsugjI/AAAAAAAAAII/ANIrJqDqYBQ/s1600/Tabernacle+schematic2.GIF)
So.........?
The holies of holies is obvious a very holy place.
The Ark itself is even more holy? And the law inside that ark even more? <<<<===== just thinking out loud.
I haven't figured it all out yet but right now I'm sure that a body + a spirit inside is oversimplifying the reality of things that will happen. I would even say so over simplifed that it simply is very wrong. Just my :2c:
Just trigger a bit of discussion.....
Whay if this flesh body is the whole Temple complex or the outer court.
What is the inner court/Tabernacle?
What is the Holies?
What is the Holy of Holies?
What is the Ark?
It's said there was no Ark in the Temple during Jesus time. It was lost in exile. (disputed)
Another guess. What if "God all in all" means the Ark finally is placed back.....?
Enough :2c: for one post :laughing7:
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:13:57 PM
This idea of the tabernacle inside the Temple could explain this passage:
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
--Gal 3:27
And this:
While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
--2 Cor 5:4
The idea being that something temporary is being clothed upon by something more permanent and more powerful. Again--the verb used is enduo--to put on as one might put on clothes--sinking into a garment.
Or the other way around....
The first Temple was by Moses. It was an Ark. A bunch of sticks and animal skins. It was really a tent. Nothing like Solomon's or Herod's Temple.
Animal skins. Now think back on what I wrote about we being animals.... :happy3:
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:18:35 PM
Quote from: wwI don't understand that. We are talking about bodies, not real houses.
I think the reference is more to man building it or God building it.
In other words, David wanted to build God a house, --well, it's cute, really, man loving God so much he wants to build him a house---but meanwhile God is building a house for us to live with him together in--a house not made by [human] hands.
I see. But still Jesus (who seems to had some insight... :winkgrin:) spoke as His body as a temple.
So for me that means the stone Temple symbolizes the human body and what's stored inside.
Where is Miss Pattern aka Cardinal when you need her? :icon_jokercolor:
The holy of holies is where man and God meet together in Spirit--face to face. Only the High Priest goes in there. In our case, our High Priest, Jesus, can take us in there--whoever has the Son has the Father. We can boldly go before the throne of God because of Jesus.
The Holy Place, Inner Court, is for the priests and the men, right? And, behind that, the women.
The outer court is where the sacrifice is made, burnt offering, --to me this is proof that all humanity is covered by the cross. This was true of both the temple and the tabernacle.
I agree the body is the outer court.
The inner court I would say is the soul.
The Holy of Holies I would say is the spirit/Spirit.
The Ark represents our bodies carrying the seed of Christ--Christ in you the hope of glory.
We need Cardinal.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 02:45:19 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:18:35 PM
Quote from: wwI don't understand that. We are talking about bodies, not real houses.
I think the reference is more to man building it or God building it.
In other words, David wanted to build God a house, --well, it's cute, really, man loving God so much he wants to build him a house---but meanwhile God is building a house for us to live with him together in--a house not made by [human] hands.
I see. But still Jesus (who seems to had some insight... :winkgrin:) spoke as His body as a temple.
So for me that means the stone Temple symbolizes the human body and what's stored inside.
Where is Miss Pattern aka Cardinal when you need her? :icon_jokercolor:
well, I think for Jesus this would be true. We're talking about someone who can lay down his life and pick it up again. God prepared a special body for him.
For us, the body is the tabernacle--a tent. Even so, because of Christ's work on the cross, in this life we have access to God through his [literal] body.
By these regulations the Holy Spirit revealed that the entrance to the Most Holy Place was not freely open as long as the Tabernacle and the system it represented were still in use.
--Heb 9:8
19Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest by the blood of Jesus,
20By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
--Heb 10
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 02:40:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:13:57 PM
This idea of the tabernacle inside the Temple could explain this passage:
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
--Gal 3:27
And this:
While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
--2 Cor 5:4
The idea being that something temporary is being clothed upon by something more permanent and more powerful. Again--the verb used is enduo--to put on as one might put on clothes--sinking into a garment.
Or the other way around....
The first Temple was by Moses. It was an Ark. A bunch of sticks and animal skins. It was really a tent. Nothing like Solomon's or Herod's Temple.
Animal skins. Now think back on what I wrote about we being animals.... :happy3:
God gave moses the blueprint for the Tabernacle to house the Ark.
I don't care what kind of animal skins you put on me. My spirit is still hidden in Christ within.
But notice we have something within which is clothed upon by something outside.
The disciples already had been given the indwelling HS by Jesus--before they were clothed upon by the HS at Pentecost.
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:51:56 PM
The holy of holies is where man and God meet together in Spirit--face to face. Only the High Priest goes in there. In our case, our High Priest, Jesus, can take us in there--whoever has the Son has the Father. We can boldly go before the throne of God because of Jesus.
The Holy Place, Inner Court, is for the priests and the men, right? And, behind that, the women.
The Inner Courts
The Court of the Women was not exclusive to women. It was called this because this was as far within the Temple as women were permitted to enter. The court was surrounded by colonnades. Along the walls there were thirteen jars which served as recepticals for various offerings.
Worshipers would come in and drop their offering into one of the jars. It was in such a manner that Jesus and His disciples would have watched the poor widow bringing her offering into the Temple (Mark 12:43).
On the west side of the Court of Women were 15 steps that led up to the Nicanor Gate, also made of Corinthian Brass. This gate led into the inner courtyard of the Temple.
The inner courts were made up of the Court of the Men, the Court of the Levites, and the Court of the Priests. Within the Court of the Priests there were the Altar and the Laver.
The altar was made of rough, unhewn stones. It stood 15 feet high and was surrounded by a raised platform so that the priests could reach its surface. In contrast to the Altar of Incense within the Temple, this altar was used for sacrificing animals.
The Laver was an immense brass bowl of water originally supported by the statues of twelve oxen, though they were removed in the days of King Ahaz (2 Kings 16:17). It was drained every evening and refilled each morning. It was also known as the "sea." This is significant when we read in Revelation 4:5 of the Throne of God, the elders and a sea of glass like crystal.
Twelve more steps led up to the Temple itself. Two great columns flanked the doors leading into the Temple. Only the priests were permitted through these doors and only at the appropriate times.
QuoteThe outer court is where the sacrifice is made, burnt offering, --to me this is proof that all humanity is covered by the cross.
Nope. Most of humanity is outside the outer court. The outer court isn't the rest of earth.
I think the cross gives everybody the right to visit the Temple.
Dunno the exact dimensions but there is nothing remotely holy 3000 cubits (2000ft) from the centre of the Temple.
QuoteThis was true of both the temple and the tabernacle.
I agree the body is the outer court.
The inner court I would say is the soul.
The Holy of Holies I would say is the spirit/Spirit.
The Ark represents our bodies carrying the seed of Christ--Christ in you the hope of glory.
QuoteWe need Cardinal.
Yeah, she always talks about the female spirit. So I wonder how that links to the court of women.
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 03:08:22 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 28, 2011, 02:40:06 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:13:57 PM
This idea of the tabernacle inside the Temple could explain this passage:
for all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.
--Gal 3:27
And this:
While we live in these earthly bodies, we groan and sigh, but it's not that we want to die and get rid of these bodies that clothe us. Rather, we want to put on our new bodies so that these dying bodies will be swallowed up by life.
--2 Cor 5:4
The idea being that something temporary is being clothed upon by something more permanent and more powerful. Again--the verb used is enduo--to put on as one might put on clothes--sinking into a garment.
Or the other way around....
The first Temple was by Moses. It was an Ark. A bunch of sticks and animal skins. It was really a tent. Nothing like Solomon's or Herod's Temple.
Animal skins. Now think back on what I wrote about we being animals.... :happy3:
God gave moses the blueprint for the Tabernacle to house the Ark.
I don't care what kind of animal skins you put on me. My spirit is still hidden in Christ within.
But you should care. Those skins were of different animals. Were place in a special order/position. Special size and thickness.
I'm sure that should tell us something...
QuoteBut notice we have something within which is clothed upon by something outside.
I really wonder that outside is made perfect or discarded....
Remember that the curtain that rent when Jesus died was of goat hair. I see it as a veil ripped away. Goats represent 'bad'.
So if Moses tent represents your spirit covered by goat skin I would say it will be totally destroyed instead of renewed.
Perhaps replaced with sheep skin...?
QuoteThe disciples already had been given the indwelling HS by Jesus--before they were clothed upon by the HS at Pentecost.
:dontknow:
Question: Couldn't the men [and women] go into the covered part of the Temple, inside the doors? To watch the Priests in the inner court perform their functions?
And, the Gentiles had to stay outside in the outer court.
QuoteSo if Moses tent represents your spirit covered by goat skin I would say it will be totally destroyed instead of renewed.
Maybe changed is a better word--at the atomic level.
This could be why no one recognized the resurrected Christ until he spoke to them, but still his body was removed from the grave.
The priest could be see far of...
The High priest was a overseeer (sp?). He could see Jesus on the cross (near the altar of the red heifer) and the thousands of sheep being killed when Jesus cried out. (Jesus shouted when the throats of the other sheep were slit (sp? cut..)
There was only a curtain seperating the Holies from the Holy of Holies.
There is some evidence that there were in fact two curtains, a cubit apart (half a meter), separating the Holy Place from the Holy of Holies (m. Yoma 5.1; see Heb 9:3). Philo explains that the outer curtain was called the "covering" (kalumma) whereas the inner curtain was called the "veil" (katapetasma) (Vita Mos. 2.101).
The Court of Women led into the Court of the Israelites via a curved staircase of fifteen steps, which led up to the Nicanor Gate (m. Mid. 1.4; 2.6). As indicated, according to Josephus, this gate was larger than the other nine gates (being fifty cubits high with doors forty cubits wide); its doors were supposed to have been made of Corinthian bronze (War 5.201) and it took twenty men to open and close it (War 6.5.3; 293). Pics: http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/temple.html (http://www.angelfire.com/nt/theology/temple.html)
Interesting article about veils: http://www.ridgeroadbaptist.org/TheVeiloftheTemple.htm (http://www.ridgeroadbaptist.org/TheVeiloftheTemple.htm)
http://www.pbnradio.com/news/code/displayIT.php?2009-10-17_THE_TEMPLE_MOUNT_-_PART_16 (http://www.pbnradio.com/news/code/displayIT.php?2009-10-17_THE_TEMPLE_MOUNT_-_PART_16)
http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/JerusalTempl4.htm (http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/JerusalTempl4.htm)
Temple Warning Sign[/b]
(http://www.abu.nb.ca/courses/NTIntro/Images/WarnSign22.gif)
[size=-1]One complete and two fragmentary copies (all in Greek) of the warning to gentiles to proceed no further have been discovered. The inscription translates as follows: "No foreigner is to enter within the balustrade and embankment around the sanctuary. Whoever is caught will have himself to blame for his death which follows." Both Greek (above) and Latin versions of this warning were posted at regular intervals around the soreg (balustrade).[/size][/t][/t] |
[/t]
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[/td][/tr][/table]
sheep skin is wool, which the priests couldn't wear in the inner court, maybe we are changed to linen? Linen never had blood.
As far as the ark being in the second temple, I was just thinking if it wasn't (which I believe to be the case) maybe one of the reasons (besides the Israelites worshipping the cherubim) was that it was foreshadowing of the New Covenant, being instituted by the tearing of the veil (which also had cherubim on it). Like second temple was a transition temple from old to new then total removal of the stone temple. The opposite of the way the temple came. No temple, then the tent of meeting, then the tabernacle, then the 1st temple (being the culmination of the OC, Solomon being the zenith of physical israel)then 2nd temple no ark, then 2nd temple no veil, then temple totally destroyed. So temple increases physically until solomon, then decreases physically to Christ in us.
The start and end point being the same too, if the garden=temple, and if the garden is inside us, we're right back where we started RE-concilled to God.
(http://www.tgm.org/TempleInWildernessFloorPlan.jpg)
(http://www.tgm.org/TempleOfManFloorPlan.jpg)
http://www.tgm.org/URTheTempleOfHS.html
Click
Compare with teh following diagram and numbers:
(http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/diagram-of-inside-of-temple-in-jerusalem-from-biblestudy-dot-org.jpg)
Numbers Used in Temple Diagram
1. Eben Shetiyyah 4. Table of Showbread 7. Attic of Abtinas
2. Candlestick 5. Chamber of Knives 8. Chamber of Pancake Makers
3. Altar of Incense 6. Chamber of Knives 9. Chamber of Phinehas
(Vestment Keeper)
10. Fifteen Semi-circular Steps
deep stuff!
the ark always symbolizes the 'word of God'...for this reason Moses was placed in an ark among the reeds...the 'word of God' speaking deliverance
to Israel was spoken through him. Same with Jonah[dove] in the ark[word of God preserving life and rainbow covenant]
there was no ark in the temple in Jesus day..because Jesus was the ark'word of God come inflesh' the Glory that was in Him was rejected
by those who sat in Moses seat. and resulted in desolation of the temple.
I beleive that the two temples that were destroyed..depicted such spiritual idolatry that 'the Glory departed" resulting in desolation
No temple because God and the Lamb is it's temple[Holy city] depicts permanancy of spiritual residing of man with God.....
Herods temple indeed looked glorious[work of man's hands] but unless God's Glory inhabited it[spirit] it is nothing but rubble.
to me all these various dwellings...of God.....whether..humble/tent/Grand/Solomon or Herod are temporary and totally dependant on
whether the spirit of GOD dwells in them...
the no temple spiritual city depicts always dwelling with the Lord in spirit and truth..being firmly established....the camp of the Holy city that God loves..
in revelation...represents the festival of booths...where God is delivering from Egypt and Babylon and have led the people into the wilderness...and
they are on their way to the Land of Promise[their permanent inheritance]
Joshus,not Moses crosses the Jordan ahead of the people. Depicting Jesus/grace not law can give us our promised inheritance.
for seven days ,seven preists carrying trumpets of rams horns[see Revelation] in front of the ark.....the seventh time around when
the preists sounded the trumpet blast,Joshua said, 'SHOUT!!! FOR THE LORD HAS GIVEN YOU THE CITY!
AT THAT TIME JOSHUA PRONOUNCED THIS SOLEMN OATH,'CURSED BEFORE THE LORD IS THE MAN WHO UNDERTAKES TO REBUILD
THIS CITY,JERICHO...AT THE COST OF HIS FIRSTBORN SON WILL HE LAY THE FOUNDATIONS,AT THE COST OF HIS YOUNGEST
WILL HE SET UP IT'S GATES[Luke 6;28 Bless those who curse you,pray for those who mistreat you].
Oftentimes cities and ships are referred to as of a femine gender
Mind if I throw in my dimension of the tabernacle? I see it to be the body of Christ, which includes also the Word. But for every station the priest was to address, I believe, was also connected to each scar that remain on Jesus body after the resurrection. The altar of sacrifice would be the scars from the nails in his feet. The laver, full of bloody water or watery blood, would be where he was pierced in the side and blood and water poured out . . .much like a woman giving birth has both blood and water pouring out of her womb . . .inside the holy place would be the golden candle stick (left hand) table of shewbread (right hand) and the altar of incense (crown of thorns).
For me, the ark represents the vessel of God. The mercy seat depicts the nature of God, the contents in the ark represent the "heart" of God. The manna being Christ, the stone tablets being Old Covenant law, and Aaron's rod that budded being the prophets Israel lost 2/3 of the contents in the ark when they went to battle and abused the purpose of the whole religious system, but specifically the power in the ark. It was when Saul was king, Samuel was just coming on the scene as the spiritual judge of the nation and they were in battle with the Philistines again . . .I think it was the Philistines . . .But they were losing so they took the ark to the front lines of the battle and it encouraged those in the trenches . . .propblem was, it instilled greater fear in the enemy than it did encouragment in the Israelites and they lost the battle anyway.
They did get the ark back, but the only thing "in" the ark after that was the stone tablets. Their identity changed that day. Now, the system "became" an identity of law enforcment rather than the fullness of God's nature including law. Until . . . .
Basically, from that time on, they'd broken God's heart. They never retrieved the manna, nor did they ever get back Aaron's rod. But then manna showed up in the flesh. it was time to for God's heart toward his people to be healed. I believe that's why the mount of transfiguratin is so profound. It shows the Manna of Jesus, the law in Moses and the prophets in Elijah coming together, uniting in one place for the first time since Israel lost the ark. It was all pointing to the restoration through what was about to take place on the cross. God got his heart back.
I really like this post,Nathan :thumbsup:
a return of the children's hearts to the Father,and the Father's heart to the children :HeartThrob:
:beerburp:
Quote from: Nathan on July 28, 2011, 07:50:58 PM
Mind if I throw in my dimension of the tabernacle? I see it to be the body of Christ, which includes also the Word. But for every station the priest was to address, I believe, was also connected to each scar that remain on Jesus body after the resurrection. The altar of sacrifice would be the scars from the nails in his feet. The laver, full of bloody water or watery blood, would be where he was pierced in the side and blood and water poured out . . .much like a woman giving birth has both blood and water pouring out of her womb . . .inside the holy place would be the golden candle stick (left hand) table of shewbread (right hand) and the altar of incense (crown of thorns).
For me, the ark represents the vessel of God. The mercy seat depicts the nature of God, the contents in the ark represent the "heart" of God. The manna being Christ, the stone tablets being Old Covenant law, and Aaron's rod that budded being the prophets Israel lost 2/3 of the contents in the ark when they went to battle and abused the purpose of the whole religious system, but specifically the power in the ark. It was when Saul was king, Samuel was just coming on the scene as the spiritual judge of the nation and they were in battle with the Philistines again . . .I think it was the Philistines . . .But they were losing so they took the ark to the front lines of the battle and it encouraged those in the trenches . . .propblem was, it instilled greater fear in the enemy than it did encouragment in the Israelites and they lost the battle anyway.
They did get the ark back, but the only thing "in" the ark after that was the stone tablets. Their identity changed that day. Now, the system "became" an identity of law enforcment rather than the fullness of God's nature including law. Until . . . .
Basically, from that time on, they'd broken God's heart. They never retrieved the manna, nor did they ever get back Aaron's rod. But then manna showed up in the flesh. it was time to for God's heart toward his people to be healed. I believe that's why the mount of transfiguratin is so profound. It shows the Manna of Jesus, the law in Moses and the prophets in Elijah coming together, uniting in one place for the first time since Israel lost the ark. It was all pointing to the restoration through what was about to take place on the cross. God got his heart back.
2 Corinthians 5
5:1 {If--be dissolved} (\ean--kataluthēi\). Third class
condition, \ean\ and first aorist passive subjunctive. The very
word used (\kataluō\) for striking down a tent. {The earthly
house of our tabernacle} (\hē epigeios hēmōn oikia tou skēnous\).
Rather, "If our earthly (see on ¯1Co 15:40 for \epigeios\) house
of the tent (\skēnos\, another form of \skēnē\, tent, from root
\ska\, to cover)." Appositive genitive, the house (\oikia\) is
the tent. {We have} (\echomen\). Present indicative. We possess
the title to it now by faith. "Faith is the title-deed
(\hupostasis\) to things hoped for" (Heb 11:7). {A building
from God} (\oikodomēn ek theou\). This \oikodomē\ (found in
Aristotle, Plutarch, LXX, etc., and papyri, though condemned by
Atticists) is more substantial than the \skēnos\. {Not made with
hands} (\acheiropoiēton\). Found first in Mr 14:58 in charge
against Jesus before the Sanhedrin (both the common verbal
\cheiropoiēton\ and the newly made vernacular \acheiropoiēton\,
same verbal with \a\ privative). Elsewhere only here and Col
2:11. Spiritual, eternal home.
5:2 {To be clothed upon with our habitation which is from heaven}
(\to oikētērion hēmōn to ex ouranou ependusasthai\). First aorist
middle infinitive of late verb \ependuō\, double compound (\ep,
en\) to put upon oneself. Cf. \ependutēs\ for a fisherman's linen
blouse or upper garment (Joh 21:7). \Oikētērion\ is old word
used here of the spiritual body as the abode of the spirit. It is
a mixed metaphor (putting on as garment the dwelling-place).
5:3 {Being clothed} (\endusamenoi\). First aorist middle
participle, having put on the garment. {Naked} (\gumnoi\). That
is, disembodied spirits, "like the souls in Sheol, without form,
and void of all power of activity" (Plummer).
5:4 {Not for that we would be unclothed} (\eph' hōi ou thelomen
ekdusasthai\). Rather, "For that (\eph' hōi\) we do not wish to
put off the clothing, but to put it on" (\all' ependusasthai\).
The transposition of the negative \ou\ weakens the sense. Paul
does not wish to be a mere disembodied spirit without his
spiritual garment. {That what is mortal may be swallowed up of
life} (\hina katapothēi to thnēton hupo tēs zōēs\). "Only what is
mortal perishes; the personality, consisting of soul and body,
survives," (Plummer). See on ¯1:22 for "the earnest of the
spirit."
http://www.ccel.org/r/robertson_at/wordpictures/htm/2CO5.RWP.html
2:20 [You are] domed-roof houses having been built over2026 (epoikodomēthentes), upon (epi) the (tē) foundation (themeliō) of the (tōn) apostles (apostolōn), and (kai) prophets (prophētōn), Christ (christou) Jesus (Iēsou) being (ontos) [the] angle tip204 (akrogōniaiou) of Him (autou); See Mat. 21:42
2:21 in (en) whom (hō) every (pasa) domed-roof house3619 (oikodomē) being jointed together (sunarmologoumenē) grows (auxei) into (eis) a holy (hagion) Holy Place (naon) in (en) [the] LORD (kuriō); See 1 Cor. 14:4 for each householder being a domed-roof house as well.
2:22 in (en) whom (hō) you (humeis) also (kai) are being built together [into] a domed-roof house4925 (sunoikodomeisthe), into (eis) a homing down place (katoikētērion) of the (tou) God (theou), in (en) [one] Spirit (pneumati).
--Eph 2
I would like some feedback on reply #81
Click below for bigger pictures.
http://www.tgm.org/TempleInWildernessFloorPlan.jpg (http://www.tgm.org/TempleInWildernessFloorPlan.jpg)
http://www.tgm.org/TempleOfManFloorPlan.jpg (http://www.tgm.org/TempleOfManFloorPlan.jpg)
http://www.tgm.org/URTheTempleOfHS.html (http://www.tgm.org/URTheTempleOfHS.html)
Compare with the following diagram and numbers:
http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/diagram-of-inside-of-temple-in-jerusalem-from-biblestudy-dot-org.jpg (http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/diagram-of-inside-of-temple-in-jerusalem-from-biblestudy-dot-org.jpg)
Numbers Used in Temple Diagram
1. Eben Shetiyyah
2. Candlestick
3. Altar of Incense
4. Table of Showbread
5. Chamber of Knives
6. Chamber of Knives
7. Attic of Abtinas
8. Chamber of Pancake Makers
9. Chamber of Phinehas (Vestment Keeper)
10. Fifteen Semi-circular Steps
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 29, 2011, 09:28:28 AM
I would like some feedback on reply #81
Click below for bigger pictures.
http://www.tgm.org/TempleInWildernessFloorPlan.jpg (http://www.tgm.org/TempleInWildernessFloorPlan.jpg)
http://www.tgm.org/TempleOfManFloorPlan.jpg (http://www.tgm.org/TempleOfManFloorPlan.jpg)
http://www.tgm.org/URTheTempleOfHS.html (http://www.tgm.org/URTheTempleOfHS.html)
Compare with the following diagram and numbers:
http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/diagram-of-inside-of-temple-in-jerusalem-from-biblestudy-dot-org.jpg (http://www.biblestudy.org/biblepic/diagram-of-inside-of-temple-in-jerusalem-from-biblestudy-dot-org.jpg)
Numbers Used in Temple Diagram
1. Eben Shetiyyah
2. Candlestick
3. Altar of Incense
4. Table of Showbread
5. Chamber of Knives
6. Chamber of Knives
7. Attic of Abtinas
8. Chamber of Pancake Makers
9. Chamber of Phinehas (Vestment Keeper)
10. Fifteen Semi-circular Steps
I like the diagrams but as for me in that "temple of man diagram" needs only to change that word "soul" to "sentient" and I believe it would be correct. but thats just me.
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:39:12 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 28, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
Is not a "vivified" a quickening spirit? The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Thanks for all comments. I think my question has run its course for now Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
We start out as the first Adam and end up as the second Adam. Yes, the last Adam is a vivifying spirit--able to give Life--and we shall be like him.
Answer removed by Micah
the key word is sown....God sows the good seed....in the feild[dust]...then enemy sows tares....law of kinds...
only one is GOOD...the Father......the good seed is the spiritual progency of GOD. It is the hand of the Father that sows his seed in the earth....
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:39:12 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 28, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
Is not a "vivified" a quickening spirit? The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Thanks for all comments. I think my question has run its course for now Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
We start out as the first Adam and end up as the second Adam. Yes, the last Adam is a vivifying spirit--able to give Life--and we shall be like him.
So to sum up the 'pattern of sound words' on this subject, we are all 'born naked' from the hand of the Creator. We are all "shapen in iniquity...conceived in sin." We "ARE dust."
Mr. Eby teaches that "you are not a physical [dust] being having a spiritual experience, you are a spirit having a physical [earthy] experience." He calls this "the law of circularity." This doctrine flies in the face of clear Biblical teaching:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Mr. Eby does not believe "that was not first which is spiritual." He teaches the exact opposite. In doing so he has bought into the serpent's lie: "Thou shalt not surely die [Only your body will die. You are first a spirit having an earthly experience].
Author Unknown
I suggest you write Brother Eby about clarification if not inclined to search for yourself that that quote is untrue.
He explains plainly how the Scripture is understood.
I will not defend him any further but he is at your disposal to inquire unlike "Author Unknown."
I agree with Sheila . . .the seed was sown into flesh. I think Paul is basically saying "man" manifested first as a physical being . . .to me, it's not saying I never existed before entering into this realm of the flesh, it's merely saying I wasn't a fully human being "until" I manfested in the flesh.
That is not an easy passage to just embrace literally and move on, it takes some time to let it absorb spiritually so that God can reveal to us what's being said. Whoever the author was that was debunking Eby was actually contradicting the passage that says when you die, your body goes back to the ground from where it came from and . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh.
It's a tough one to get our minds to see because our minds can't understand just what the spiritual realm consists of. We try to come up with "images" of what we "think" it is, but there's just no original template from which we can draw from.
But for me . . ."I" am not fully "me" unless the three main componants are in place . . .two actually, but when the two come together they "become" three . . (where two or more are gathered together . . .hmmm . .. ) But when my SPIRIT (one) enters into my BODY (two) my SOUL manifests that bond. It's at that point I am "me" When I die and my spirit leaves the flesh, my spirit still exists, but "I" am not completely "me" anymore until when all things are complete and we all return to our bodies that are transformed, glorified in order for us to become completely us again.
that's how I see it today anyway . .. tomorrow could bring a whole new box of cookies to munch on.
So the "complete" me manifests through the first Adam first, and then is transformed into the last Adam through Grace by faith.
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 29, 2011, 10:14:24 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 29, 2011, 08:48:10 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 28, 2011, 02:39:12 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 28, 2011, 12:05:52 AM
Quote from: Beloved Servant on July 27, 2011, 11:41:24 PM
Quote from: Molly on July 27, 2011, 10:59:12 PM
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby immortal.
For some reason, I've taken a liking to the word permanent.
At the risk of repeating myself, a glorified body is one that is vivified by the quickening Spirit, thereby permanent.
Works for me!
No one takes my life He said, I lay it down.
Is not a "vivified" a quickening spirit? The first man, Adam, "became a living soul:the last Adam a vivifying Spirit."
Thanks for all comments. I think my question has run its course for now Peace and Love Through Jesus :bigGrin:
We start out as the first Adam and end up as the second Adam. Yes, the last Adam is a vivifying spirit--able to give Life--and we shall be like him.
So to sum up the 'pattern of sound words' on this subject, we are all 'born naked' from the hand of the Creator. We are all "shapen in iniquity...conceived in sin." We "ARE dust."
Mr. Eby teaches that "you are not a physical [dust] being having a spiritual experience, you are a spirit having a physical [earthy] experience." He calls this "the law of circularity." This doctrine flies in the face of clear Biblical teaching:
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam [was made] a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
1Co 15:47 The first man is of the earth, earthy: the second man is the Lord from heaven.
Mr. Eby does not believe "that was not first which is spiritual." He teaches the exact opposite. In doing so he has bought into the serpent's lie: "Thou shalt not surely die [Only your body will die. You are first a spirit having an earthly experience].
Mike Vinson
I suggest you write Brother Eby about clarification if not inclined to search for yourself that that quote is untrue.
He explains plainly how the Scripture is understood.
I will not defend him any further but he is at your disposal to inquire unlike "Author Unknown."
The author is Mike Vinson. And I do apologize for my post.
Quote from: Nathan on July 29, 2011, 10:31:12 PM
. . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it ...
Brilliant!
Quote from: Nathan on July 29, 2011, 10:31:12 PM
I agree with Sheila . . .the seed was sown into flesh. I think Paul is basically saying "man" manifested first as a physical being . . .to me, it's not saying I never existed before entering into this realm of the flesh, it's merely saying I wasn't a fully human being "until" I manfested in the flesh.
That is not an easy passage to just embrace literally and move on, it takes some time to let it absorb spiritually so that God can reveal to us what's being said. Whoever the author was that was debunking Eby was actually contradicting the passage that says when you die, your body goes back to the ground from where it came from and . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh.
It's a tough one to get our minds to see because our minds can't understand just what the spiritual realm consists of. We try to come up with "images" of what we "think" it is, but there's just no original template from which we can draw from.
But for me . . ."I" am not fully "me" unless the three main componants are in place . . .two actually, but when the two come together they "become" three . . (where two or more are gathered together . . .hmmm . .. ) But when my SPIRIT (one) enters into my BODY (two) my SOUL manifests that bond. It's at that point I am "me" When I die and my spirit leaves the flesh, my spirit still exists, but "I" am not completely "me" anymore until when all things are complete and we all return to our bodies that are transformed, glorified in order for us to become completely us again.
that's how I see it today anyway . .. tomorrow could bring a whole new box of cookies to munch on.
So the "complete" me manifests through the first Adam first, and then is transformed into the last Adam through Grace by faith.
Then am I to suspect that
man/adam[ruddy, that is, a human being] of Gen. 2:7 was NOT the first man adam
but that there was a
[man/adam [ruddy, that is, a human being] of 1Cor.15:45 was before the first man/adam but that man/adam[ruddy, that is, a human being] was a breath/spirit to start out with and Paul got it wrong?
1Co 15:45 In the same way also it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING ANIMAL"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.
That verse is neutral. Creature. Could be man or animal.
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 01:01:28 AM
That verse is neutral. Creature. Could be man or animal.
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
I like this.
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life.
I am getting annoyed at being called an 'animal.' :mshock:
[even if I do look like my dog.]
check out O' Nebucchadnezer...when 7 times passed over him..and he had the mind of a beast...his fingernails grew..feathers etc....
til the dew of heaven came..and his sanity and kingdom was restored to him
Even being called a sentient animal is an insult to the masterpiece of God's creation.
I in them, and Thou in Me, that They may be made perfect in One... .
We are His Children.
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2011, 01:04:23 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 01:01:28 AM
That verse is neutral. Creature. Could be man or animal.
ψυχή
psuchē
Thayer Definition:
1) breath
1a) the breath of life
1a1) the vital force which animates the body and shows itself in breathing
1a1a) of animals
1a1b) of men
1b) life
1c) that in which there is life
1c1) a living being, a living soul
2) the soul
2a) the seat of the feelings, desires, affections, aversions (our heart, soul etc.)
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life
2c) the soul as an essence which differs from the body and is not dissolved by death (distinguished from other parts of the body)
I like this.
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life.
I am getting annoyed at being called an 'animal.' :mshock:
Want a cookie Molly doggie :winkgrin:
That's not what I wrote in this thread.... I told you that before but somehow it seems you never read the answer!?
IMO the key is in G5594/G4154/H5315/H5397
Quote[even if I do look like my dog.]
Dogs are loyal to their master....
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 12:53:34 AM
Quote from: Nathan on July 29, 2011, 10:31:12 PM
I agree with Sheila . . .the seed was sown into flesh. I think Paul is basically saying "man" manifested first as a physical being . . .to me, it's not saying I never existed before entering into this realm of the flesh, it's merely saying I wasn't a fully human being "until" I manfested in the flesh.
That is not an easy passage to just embrace literally and move on, it takes some time to let it absorb spiritually so that God can reveal to us what's being said. Whoever the author was that was debunking Eby was actually contradicting the passage that says when you die, your body goes back to the ground from where it came from and . . .say it with me cuz I know you all know it . .. I've seen it posted on here more than once . . .your spirit goes . .where? BACK to God WHO SENT IT. Which indicates that it did exist "before" it entered into these bodies of flesh.
It's a tough one to get our minds to see because our minds can't understand just what the spiritual realm consists of. We try to come up with "images" of what we "think" it is, but there's just no original template from which we can draw from.
But for me . . ."I" am not fully "me" unless the three main componants are in place . . .two actually, but when the two come together they "become" three . . (where two or more are gathered together . . .hmmm . .. ) But when my SPIRIT (one) enters into my BODY (two) my SOUL manifests that bond. It's at that point I am "me" When I die and my spirit leaves the flesh, my spirit still exists, but "I" am not completely "me" anymore until when all things are complete and we all return to our bodies that are transformed, glorified in order for us to become completely us again.
that's how I see it today anyway . .. tomorrow could bring a whole new box of cookies to munch on.
So the "complete" me manifests through the first Adam first, and then is transformed into the last Adam through Grace by faith.
Then am I to suspect that man/adam[ruddy, that is, a human being] of Gen. 2:7 was NOT the first man adam
but that there was a [man/adam [ruddy, that is, a human being] of 1Cor.15:45 was before the first man/adam but that man/adam[ruddy, that is, a human being] was a breath/spirit to start out with and Paul got it wrong?
1Co 15:45 In the same way also it is written, "THE FIRST MAN ADAM BECAME A LIVING ANIMAL"; the last Adam is a life-giving Spirit.
Yes Micah . . .that was my intention all along . . .to imply Paul got it wrong. and I have no idea what you're talking about . . .with all your brackets and "b's" throwing in the slashes and then accusing me of denouncing Paul . . .makes no sense to me at all.
Adam was the first man of flesh . . .God breathed in his flesh and he BECAME something else . . .still a man of flesh, but now, he's a living soul. Still the first man . . .but now he's a living being . . .complete. He then "became" a fallen man . . .still being a spirit within a body as evidenced by manifesting through a soul. But he was still in an fallen state. Christ was not the literal Adam, he was the last Adam, the link between the fallen Adam and God. We were born in the first Adam, resurrected by and into the last Adam . . .I don't know how else to say it.
Quote from: wwWant a cookie Molly doggie
grrrrrr [low and ominous growl]
"I like this.
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life.
I am getting annoyed at being called an 'animal.' :mshock:
[even if I do look like my dog.]" (Molly)
Molly you picked that one cause it makes you happy. And you must really be upset with this guy
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
But then again we [mankind] have matured so much farther from the " for all is vanity." Right!
Ecc 3;11
He has made everything beautiful in it's time.HE HAS ALSO SET ETERNITY IN THE HEARTS OF MEN,Yet, they can not fathom what
GOD HAS DONE FROM BEGINNING TO END
WHO KNOWS IF THE SPIRIT OF MAN RISES UPWARD? AND IF THE SPIRIT OF THE ANIMAL GOES DOWN INTO THE EARTH?[evidently not Solomon/nor
His wisdom/but look a greater than Solomon knows...].. after this I looked,and there before me was a door standing open in heaven..
and the voice I had first heard speaking to me like atrumpet said 'COME UP HERE AND I WILL SHOW YOU WHAT MUST TAKE PLACE AFTER THIS...
ALL AT ONCE,I WAS IN THE SPIRIT Rev 11;11 But after the three and half days a breath of life from GOD entered them and they stood on their feet
...v 17 Then they heard a loud voice from heaven saying to them'COME UP HERE"...the spirit and the bride say,COME
Just what is it that you are proclaiming? I am happy in the form the Lord God brought me forth in. I believe and understand that God is the Capital one(in charge or control) as far as this kosmos is concerned. He has done, is doing, and will continue to do whatever He desires or wants.
Should Ecc. 3:18 & 19 offend, it is does not this vessel. I know that at this stage in my growth I carry baggage, but KNOWING I am a new creature takes the sting out of it you know(sticks and stones....)
For 2Co 5:17 so that if any one is in Christ-- he is a new creature; the old things did pass away, lo, become new have the all things.
Gal 6:15 for in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth anything, nor uncircumcision, but a new creation;
THIS CHILD IS DESTINED TO CAUSE THE FALLING AND RISING OF MANY IN ISRAEL.....AND TO BE A SIGN THAT IS SPOKEN AGAINST
SO THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS WILL BE REVEALED
Philipians 3;14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in CHRIST JESUS
ALL OF US,WHO ARE MATURE,SHOULD TAKE SUCH A VEIW OF THINGS. And if on some point you think differently,
that,too,God will make clear to you.Only let us live up to what we have already attained....take note of those who live according to the pattern
we gave you........v 20 But our citizenship is in heaven........
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 01:08:54 AM
check out O' Nebucchadnezer...when 7 times passed over him..and he had the mind of a beast...his fingernails grew..feathers etc....
til the dew of heaven came..and his sanity and kingdom was restored to him
Wasnt The Lord God behind that transforming?
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 02:53:58 AM
THIS CHILD IS DESTINED TO CAUSE THE FALLING AND RISING OF MANY IN ISRAEL.....AND TO BE A SIGN THAT IS SPOKEN AGAINST
SO THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS WILL BE REVEALED
Philipians 3;14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in CHRIST JESUS
ALL OF US,WHO ARE MATURE,SHOULD TAKE SUCH A VEIW OF THINGS. And if on some point you think differently,
that,too,God will make clear to you.Only let us live up to what we have already attained....take note of those who live according to the pattern
we gave you........v 20 But our citizenship is in heaven........
I know and am aware of the truth that OUR CITIZENSHIP IS A PLACE HIGHER UP! Col 3:10 and having put on the new, which is
renewed in regard to knowledge, after the image of Him who did create him;
Quote from: sheila on July 30, 2011, 02:53:58 AM
THIS CHILD IS DESTINED TO CAUSE THE FALLING AND RISING OF MANY IN ISRAEL.....AND TO BE A SIGN THAT IS SPOKEN AGAINST
SO THAT THE THOUGHTS OF MANY HEARTS WILL BE REVEALED
Philipians 3;14 I press on toward the goal to win the prize for which God has called me heavenward in CHRIST JESUS
ALL OF US,WHO ARE MATURE,SHOULD TAKE SUCH A VEIW OF THINGS. And if on some point you think differently,
that,too,God will make clear to you.Only let us live up to what we have already attained....take note of those who live according to the pattern
we gave you........v 20 But our citizenship is in heaven........
Isa 60:14
and they shall call you The City of the LORD, Zion of the Holy One of IsraelPsalm 87
1His foundation is in the holy mountains.
2The LORD loveth the gates of Zion more than all the dwellings of Jacob.
3Glorious things are spoken of thee, O city of God. Selah.
4I will make mention of Rahab and Babylon to them that know me: behold Philistia, and Tyre, with Ethiopia; this man was born there.
5And of Zion it shall be said, This and that man was born in her: and the highest himself shall establish her.
6The LORD shall count, when he writeth up the people, that this man was born there. Selah.
7As well the singers as the players on instruments shall be there: all my springs are in thee.
Jesus replied to him, "Truly, I tell you with certainty, unless a person is born from above he cannot see the kingdom of God."
--John 3:3
"Yes Micah . . .that was my intention all along . . .to imply Paul got it wrong. and I have no idea what you're talking about . . .with all your brackets and "b's" throwing in the slashes and then accusing me of denouncing Paul . . .makes no sense to me at all." Nathan
"The first man Adam became a living creature,' the last Adam is for a life-giving spirit," if the first adam became a breathing creature, then who is the the first adam that was first a spirit. How many firsts are there?
And you say that Paul did not get it wrong, then who was the first adam? Was he a breathing creature or a spirit? I hope that makes it clearer.
"
Adam was the first man of flesh . . .God breathed in his flesh and he BECAME something else " (nathan) yeah he became a breathing creature.
"He then "became" a fallen man . . .still being a spirit within a body as evidenced by manifesting through a soul. But he was still in an fallen state. " (nathan)
First, I do not accept the teaching that man "fell." "".still being a spirit within a body as evidenced by manifesting through a soul"" Now that I do not understand. Im sorry.
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 01:49:49 AM
"I like this.
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life.
I am getting annoyed at being called an 'animal.' :mshock:
[even if I do look like my dog.]" (Molly)
Molly you picked that one cause it makes you happy. And you must really be upset with this guy
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
But then again we [mankind] have matured so much farther from the " for all is vanity." Right!
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1245736457001272142xrDwPt
Quote from: Molly on July 30, 2011, 03:55:48 AM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 01:49:49 AM
"I like this.
2b) the (human) soul in so far as it is constituted that by the right use of the aids offered it by God it can attain its highest end and secure eternal blessedness, the soul regarded as a moral being designed for everlasting life.
I am getting annoyed at being called an 'animal.' :mshock:
[even if I do look like my dog.]" (Molly)
Molly you picked that one cause it makes you happy. And you must really be upset with this guy
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
But then again we [mankind] have matured so much farther from the " for all is vanity." Right!
http://pets.webshots.com/photo/1245736457001272142xrDwPt
Your words please. Sites and youtube I have a problem with. thank you
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 30, 2011, 01:49:49 AM
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
But then again we [mankind] have matured so much farther from the " for all is vanity." Right!
Ok, I'm not defending Molly's position because I disagree with her. That said your verse doesn't prove much.
Does a lion have preeminence above a tiger? Whatever the answer; they still are beasts.
Same can be said about your verses. Not having preeminence doesn't mean it's the same.
For example I believe in relationships with women (marriage) based on equality.
I'm not looking for preeminence over a woman. That view makes me equal to a woman. But it doesn't make me A woman. Understand what I mean?
Jesus had preeminence over the 12. That doesn't mean the 12 were just animals.
:2c:
Doing a little research re: the lowered thread, and ran across the following. I believe it relates to Molly's post about a difference between humans and animals;
unless I'm oversimplifying, this verse indicates (at least) 2 things;
man and beast both have spirits,
but,
those spirits go to different places upon death.
Who knoweth the spirit
of man that goeth upward,
and the spirit of the beast
that goeth downward to the
earth? Ecc. 3:21
Ecc 3:19 For that which befalleth the sons of men befalleth beasts; even one thing befalleth them: as the one dieth, so dieth the other; yea, they have all one breath; and man hath no preeminence above the beasts: for all is vanity.
Ecc 3:20 All are going to one place; All have come from the soil, and all return to the soil."
Ecc 3:21 Who is knowing about the spirit of the sons of humanity, Whether it is ascending above, And the spirit of the beast, whether it is descending below to the earth?
Ecc 3:18 I said in my heart, It is because of the sons of men, that God may prove them, and that they may see that they themselves are but as beasts.
James, I think there are translation issues with the word soul and spirit. So I'll try to explain my view without those words.
God created lifeless objects out of sand. He created statues that looked like a whale, a bird and a man. The where all dead.
Then He added something to all those statues that gave them live. That something was exactly the same for whale, bird and man. So upto this point we have 3 creatures that look differently but are made of exactly the same materials and got added exactly the same extra that gave life.
Then God gave the human form something extra that He did not give to the others. That something is the distinction between man and beast. I do not know if that something extra was added a split second after He animated the statues or that it was added long after that.
So my summary.
All living creatures share dust/flesh and the force that animates them. Man recieved a extra 'something'.
Man and animal are both pots. God put 1 thing in the animal pots. God put 2 things in the human pots.
That 2nd thing is heavily veiled/darkened. Often it's almost asleep. I think that's why there are verses that compare man to a beast. Their origin is the same and what seperates them is often asleep.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
James, I think there are translation issues with the word soul and spirit. So I'll try to explain my view without those words.
God created lifeless objects out of sand. He created statues that looked like a whale, a bird and a man. The where all dead.
Then He added something to all those statues that gave them live. That something was exactly the same for whale, bird and man. So upto this point we have 3 creatures that look differently but are made of exactly the same materials and got added exactly the same extra that gave life.
Then God gave the human form something extra that He did not give to the others. That something is the distinction between man and beast. I do not know if that something extra was added a split second after He animated the statues or that it was added long after that.
So my summary.
All living creatures share dust/flesh and the force that animates them. Man recieved a extra 'something'.
Man and animal are both pots. God put 1 thing in the animal pots. God put 2 things in the human pots.
That 2nd thing is heavily veiled/darkened. Often it's almost asleep. I think that's why there are verses that compare man to a beast. Their origin is the same and what seperates them is often asleep.
:2c:
Very good, thanks.
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
James, I think there are translation issues with the word soul and spirit. So I'll try to explain my view without those words.
God created lifeless objects out of sand. He created statues that looked like a whale, a bird and a man. The where all dead.
Then He added something to all those statues that gave them live. That something was exactly the same for whale, bird and man. So upto this point we have 3 creatures that look differently but are made of exactly the same materials and got added exactly the same extra that gave life.
Then God gave the human form something extra that He did not give to the others. That something is the distinction between man and beast. I do not know if that something extra was added a split second after He animated the statues or that it was added long after that.
So my summary.
All living creatures share dust/flesh and the force that animates them. Man recieved a extra 'something'.
Man and animal are both pots. God put 1 thing in the animal pots. God put 2 things in the human pots.
That 2nd thing is heavily veiled/darkened. Often it's almost asleep. I think that's why there are verses that compare man to a beast. Their origin is the same and what seperates them is often asleep.
:2c:
Could that "extra something" be that God had dialouge with man?
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 06:12:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
James, I think there are translation issues with the word soul and spirit. So I'll try to explain my view without those words.
God created lifeless objects out of sand. He created statues that looked like a whale, a bird and a man. The where all dead.
Then He added something to all those statues that gave them live. That something was exactly the same for whale, bird and man. So upto this point we have 3 creatures that look differently but are made of exactly the same materials and got added exactly the same extra that gave life.
Then God gave the human form something extra that He did not give to the others. That something is the distinction between man and beast. I do not know if that something extra was added a split second after He animated the statues or that it was added long after that.
So my summary.
All living creatures share dust/flesh and the force that animates them. Man recieved a extra 'something'.
Man and animal are both pots. God put 1 thing in the animal pots. God put 2 things in the human pots.
That 2nd thing is heavily veiled/darkened. Often it's almost asleep. I think that's why there are verses that compare man to a beast. Their origin is the same and what seperates them is often asleep.
:2c:
Could that "extra something" be that God had dialouge with man?
You mean God added something by chatting with Adam???
man received grace and Holy spirit[undeserved kindness and an intercessor] when lowered into a weakened flesh
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 31, 2011, 09:08:46 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on July 31, 2011, 06:12:59 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on July 30, 2011, 11:03:34 AM
James, I think there are translation issues with the word soul and spirit. So I'll try to explain my view without those words.
God created lifeless objects out of sand. He created statues that looked like a whale, a bird and a man. The where all dead.
Then He added something to all those statues that gave them live. That something was exactly the same for whale, bird and man. So upto this point we have 3 creatures that look differently but are made of exactly the same materials and got added exactly the same extra that gave life.
Then God gave the human form something extra that He did not give to the others. That something is the distinction between man and beast. I do not know if that something extra was added a split second after He animated the statues or that it was added long after that.
So my summary.
All living creatures share dust/flesh and the force that animates them. Man recieved a extra 'something'.
Man and animal are both pots. God put 1 thing in the animal pots. God put 2 things in the human pots.
That 2nd thing is heavily veiled/darkened. Often it's almost asleep. I think that's why there are verses that compare man to a beast. Their origin is the same and what seperates them is often asleep.
:2c:
Could that "extra something" be that God had dialouge with man?
You mean God added something by chatting with Adam???
Well He didnt talk to the cattle or fish or fowl that I know of anyway. Man is certainly different in that sense, man talks or as you say "chatting." :grin:
man received speech...and can write words....and God can write in man's heart....HIS LAW
I created man from visible and invisible nature,of both are his death and life and image...HE KNOWS SPEECH LIKE SOME CREATED THING
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
We do indeed have the earnest of the spirit even now. But
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We do not innately possess "the earnest of the spirit", yet that 'earnest' is all we have "until the redemption of the purchased possession", which is the spiritual body we receive only when "it is raised a spiritual body", not when it was a spiritual body to begin with.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
"If there is no resurrection from the dead then they that are asleep in Christ are perished". Those words are a lie if we are originally immortal spirit bodies.
So I ask, Where is King David?
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Quote from: micah7:9 on August 03, 2011, 02:15:12 AM
1Co 15:44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
1Co 15:45 And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
We do indeed have the earnest of the spirit even now. But
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truth, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
We do not innately possess "the earnest of the spirit", yet that 'earnest' is all we have "until the redemption of the purchased possession", which is the spiritual body we receive only when "it is raised a spiritual body", not when it was a spiritual body to begin with.
1Co 15:46 Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.
"If there is no resurrection from the dead then they that are asleep in Christ are perished". Those words are a lie if we are originally immortal spirit bodies.
So I ask, Where is King David?
Act 2:34 For David is not ascended into the heavens: but he saith himself, The LORD said unto my Lord, Sit thou on my right hand,
Act 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Originally immortal bodies. But what if sin destroyed that?
Not sure at his point whether Adam's Spirit died, or that it died from God, or perhaps another term, a dying spirit within him.
Maybe what God is saying that if there is no resurrection of the dead, then it is a sign that Christ failed His mission. But the resurrection of the dead is proof that He succeeded in His mission.
I do see your points thought micah and they are strong points, but for me I still see us as being a spirit beings before being formed into a living soul, just have not worked out the full details of it yet.