Rev 1:5 and from Jesus Christ, the faithful witness, the first-born out of the dead, and the ruler of the kings of the earth; to him who did love us, and did bathe us from our sins in his blood,
Rev 1:6 and did make us kings and priests to his God and Father, to him is the glory and the power to the ages of the ages! Amen.
Thanks to Cardinal for her continual reference to the temple. :gimmefive:
I think it is so cool how the temple is the story of salvation.
First and foremost that Jesus is our priest forever;
Heb 5:5 so also the Christ did not glorify himself to become chief priest, but He who spake unto him: `My Son thou art, I to-day have begotten thee;'
Heb 5:6 as also in another place He saith, `Thou art a priest--to the age, according to the order of Melchisedek;'
From my understanding, the priest alone was allowed in the sanctuary, but now we also have access to not only the sanctuary, but the Holy of Holies, for Jesus tore the curtain down.
Mat 27:51 And, behold, the veil of the temple was rent in twain from the top to the bottom; and the earth did quake, and the rocks rent;
*The alter; destruction of sin
*The bronze laver; baptism
*The Sanctuary (communion with Christ as the light/menorah[revelation] and the show-bread/Word) and the incense, our prayers.
*The Holy of Holies; being in the presence of God (the Holy Spirit within us, Emanuel/God with us)
This is on my heart today and have included it, instead of referencing it:
Psa 145:1 David's Psalm of praise. I will extol thee, my God, O king; and I will bless thy name for ever and ever.
Psa 145:2 Every day will I bless thee; and I will praise thy name for ever and ever.
Psa 145:3 Great is the LORD, and greatly to be praised; and his greatness is unsearchable.
Psa 145:4 One generation shall praise thy works to another, and shall declare thy mighty acts.
Psa 145:5 I will speak of the glorious honour of thy majesty, and of thy wondrous works.
Psa 145:6 And men shall speak of the might of thy terrible acts: and I will declare thy greatness.
Psa 145:7 They shall abundantly utter the memory of thy great goodness, and shall sing of thy righteousness.
Psa 145:8 The LORD is gracious, and full of compassion; slow to anger, and of great mercy.
Psa 145:9 The LORD is good to all: and his tender mercies are over all his works.
Psa 145:10 All thy works shall praise thee, O LORD; and thy saints shall bless thee.
Psa 145:11 They shall speak of the glory of thy kingdom, and talk of thy power;
Psa 145:12 To make known to the sons of men his mighty acts, and the glorious majesty of his kingdom.
Psa 145:13 Thy kingdom is an everlasting kingdom, and thy dominion endureth throughout all generations.
Psa 145:14 The LORD upholdeth all that fall, and raiseth up all those that be bowed down.
Psa 145:15 The eyes of all wait upon thee; and thou givest them their meat in due season.
Psa 145:16 Thou openest thine hand, and satisfiest the desire of every living thing.
Psa 145:17 The LORD is righteous in all his ways, and holy in all his works.
Psa 145:18 The LORD is nigh unto all them that call upon him, to all that call upon him in truth.
Psa 145:19 He will fulfil the desire of them that fear him: he also will hear their cry, and will save them.
Psa 145:20 The LORD preserveth all them that love him: but all the wicked will he destroy.
Psa 145:21 My mouth shall speak the praise of the LORD: and let all flesh bless his holy name for ever and ever. :dsunny:
Quote from: saintwaleeFrom my understanding, the priest alone was allowed in the sanctuary, but now we also have access to not only the sanctuary, but the Holy of Holies, for Jesus tore the curtain down.
Yes, and not only that, the reason we have access to the Holiest place is because we are the body of the High Priest, his hands, feet, arms etc. The Body is functionally the high priest himself on earth as his representative.
Which veil did they witness being torn? There was more than one.
:dontknow:
According to the writer of Hebrews, as most know, there were two compartments to the tabernacle/temple. (I am reading from the Aramaic text, not the Greek)
1. Qudsha 'The holy'. (Heb 9:2)
2. Qdush Qudsheh 'Holy the Holies. (Heb 9:3)
Both had curtains, but the only one visible to outsiders was the one to the Qudsha, the first compartment, where the bread of the face, the menorah, and the table of incense was.
According to chapter 10:19, the writer says we have assurance in entering, not Qdush Qudsheh (Holy the Holies), but Qudsha (The Holy) by Yeshua's blood.
I know this has been debated from the Greek for centuries, but the Aramaic is clear: It was the first veil that was torn, the one leading into the Qudsha (The Holy place).
If the second curtain had been torn, no one would have seen it and it would not have been a visible witness to everyone outside.
Josephus adds something in his writings that at least hints at another connection showing that it was the first veil that was torn. He describes the first veil being decorated to look like a panorama of the heavens, with heavenly bodies and stars...he called it 'a panorama of the entire heavens'.
Interestingly, with reference to the word 'split' or 'torn' in Mark 15:38, we find this word used only one other time in Mark...in chapter 1:10, when Yeshua began his ministry and was immersed. The Father split, or tore, the heavens. This could be connected to the end of Yeshua's earthly ministry when the Father once again split the representation of the heavens, the first temple veil.
I believe one is in God's presence in the Holy place, as I believe it pictures man serving as priest while in earthly bodies. In such bodies, Paul said there is a truth that as long as we are in these bodies on this earth, we are absent from the Master
Therefore, because we know and are persuaded, that while we lodge in the body we sojourn away from Maran;
(2Co 5:6)
I believe we will enter into the Qdush Qudsheh and are fully and completely in his presence, only when we put off these tents, as Paul alludes to here:
therefore we are confident, and desirous to be away from the body, and to be with Maran.
(2Co 5:8)
As wonderful as we have it now in the spirit, to put it in the words of the song...we ain't seen nothin yet. :dsunny:
Ronen
As I know I am probably the lone one here who uses the Aramaic text by default, there is also evidence in the Greek for this understanding. Here are the two places spoken of in Hebrews 9 again, in Greek:
1. hagia (Holy place) vs. 2
2. hagia hagion (Holy place of Holy places) vs. 3
When we read Hebrews 10:19 I used to assume that he said we had access to the holy of holies, but he doesn't say that we have boldness into the hagia hagion (holy place of holy places), but rather, into the eisodon ton hagion, which means 'entrance of the holy places'. The entrance of the holy places refers to that first entrance which lead initially to the holy place. It says holy places, of course, because the entire retangular area contains both the holy and most holy places together.
Ronen
I believe there is a twofold salvation. We are saved in our minds by the life of Christ not to follow the flesh, then we are ultimately freed from the flesh when the process is complete. I believe as the body of the high priest we are able to enter the holiest place because we are In Christ. We are in the high priest
Is that why Christ is a priest in the order of Malchizedek (sp?)? He is our mediator still. Although we have access to the Holy place. That would make sense as the incense is still there, we are still offering up our prayers.
So we are only 2/3rds the way "there" then, eh? Much better that being zero the way there!
Thanks for sharing that with us@ :thanks:
I respect what you have shared Seth, and understand where you are coming from there my brother. I too, believe we are able to enter that most holy (set apart) place, albeit in a different way.
Those are salient points saintwalee. There is much to be gleaned from understanding the tabernacle pattern, and I believe we humans have only scratched the surface of its awesome revelation.
Quote from: Seth on July 06, 2014, 11:47:57 PM
I believe there is a twofold salvation. We are saved in our minds by the life of Christ not to follow the flesh, then we are ultimately freed from the flesh when the process is complete. I believe as the body of the high priest we are able to enter the holiest place because we are In Christ. We are in the high priest
He 10:19 Therefore, brethren, since we have confidence to enter the holy place by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way which He inaugurated for us through the veil, that is, His flesh, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near with a sincere heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water.
Eaglesway, yes and not only that:
1 Corinthians 3
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In asmuch as we have entry to the holiest place, the holiest place is within us!
As Christ was in his father, his father was within him.
As we are in Christ, Christ is in us
As we are in the holiest place, the holiest place is within us.
or also, you could say- we are the holiest place. Our hearts being the mercy seat, our spirit the wings of the cherubim, our souls, the acacia box.
Being builded together into a habitation of God in the spirit (whew, wheels within wheels eh? :o)
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 06, 2014, 10:14:03 PM
Which veil did they witness being torn? There was more than one.
Since in Hebrews it says the way into the holy place has been opened through the rent veil of His flesh, I would hazard a guess it was the veil into the most holy place.
Quote from: eaglesway on July 07, 2014, 07:19:35 AM
or also, you could say- we are the holiest place. Our hearts being the mercy seat, our spirit the wings of the cherubim, our souls, the acacia box.
Being builded together into a habitation of God in the spirit (whew, wheels within wheels eh? :o)
Yup!
You have not received a spirit of fear, but a spirit of power(wings of the cherubim), love(mercy seat) and a sound mind(acacia box) :banana:
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 06, 2014, 11:11:26 PM
According to the writer of Hebrews, as most know, there were two compartments to the tabernacle/temple. (I am reading from the Aramaic text, not the Greek)
1. Qudsha 'The holy'. (Heb 9:2)
2. Qdush Qudsheh 'Holy the Holies. (Heb 9:3)
Both had curtains, but the only one visible to outsiders was the one to the Qudsha, the first compartment, where the bread of the face, the menorah, and the table of incense was.
According to chapter 10:19, the writer says we have assurance in entering, not Qdush Qudsheh (Holy the Holies), but Qudsha (The Holy) by Yeshua's blood.
I know this has been debated from the Greek for centuries, but the Aramaic is clear: It was the first veil that was torn, the one leading into the Qudsha (The Holy place).
If the second curtain had been torn, no one would have seen it and it would not have been a visible witness to everyone outside.
Josephus adds something in his writings that at least hints at another connection showing that it was the first veil that was torn. He describes the first veil being decorated to look like a panorama of the heavens, with heavenly bodies and stars...he called it 'a panorama of the entire heavens'.
Interestingly, with reference to the word 'split' or 'torn' in Mark 15:38, we find this word used only one other time in Mark...in chapter 1:10, when Yeshua began his ministry and was immersed. The Father split, or tore, the heavens. This could be connected to the end of Yeshua's earthly ministry when the Father once again split the representation of the heavens, the first temple veil.
I believe one is in God's presence in the Holy place, as I believe it pictures man serving as priest while in earthly bodies. In such bodies, Paul said there is a truth that as long as we are in these bodies on this earth, we are absent from the Master
Therefore, because we know and are persuaded, that while we lodge in the body we sojourn away from Maran;
(2Co 5:6)
I believe we will enter into the Qdush Qudsheh and are fully and completely in his presence, only when we put off these tents, as Paul alludes to here:
therefore we are confident, and desirous to be away from the body, and to be with Maran.
(2Co 5:8)
As wonderful as we have it now in the spirit, to put it in the words of the song...we ain't seen nothin yet. :dsunny:
Ronen
Oh! that explains: 2 Cor 5:8 - "therefore we are ...desirous to be away from the body, and to be with Maran."
...not as the 'mainstream' believes, as a soul (with inherent immortality).. 'going to heaven' (or the supposed 'opposite') at ones death..
the "opposite" of course, is needed if not all are saved, and if there is inherent immortality..
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 06, 2014, 11:30:13 PM
As I know I am probably the lone one here who uses the Aramaic text by default, there is also evidence in the Greek for this understanding. Here are the two places spoken of in Hebrews 9 again, in Greek:
1. hagia (Holy place) vs. 2
2. hagia hagion (Holy place of Holy places) vs. 3
When we read Hebrews 10:19 I used to assume that he said we had access to the holy of holies, but he doesn't say that we have boldness into the hagia hagion (holy place of holy places), but rather, into the eisodon ton hagion, which means 'entrance of the holy places'. The entrance of the holy places refers to that first entrance which lead initially to the holy place. It says holy places, of course, because the entire retangular area contains both the holy and most holy places together.
Ronen
Very interesting! makes very good sense to me! :smile:
Quote from: Seth on July 06, 2014, 11:47:57 PM
I believe there is a twofold salvation. We are saved in our minds by the life of Christ not to follow the flesh, then we are ultimately freed from the flesh when the process is complete. I believe as the body of the high priest we are able to enter the holiest place because we are In Christ. We are in the high priest
!
:thumbsup: :iagree:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 07, 2014, 07:19:35 AM
or also, you could say- we are the holiest place. Our hearts being the mercy seat, our spirit the wings of the cherubim, our souls, the acacia box.
Being builded together into a habitation of God in the spirit (whew, wheels within wheels eh? :o)
Amen! the Truth as circles/wheels.. always the same truth every where over and over.. the same truth/story illustrated (proven) in every life and also in all history as a whole.. imo :smile:
Quote from: eaglesway on July 07, 2014, 07:21:51 AM
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 06, 2014, 10:14:03 PM
Which veil did they witness being torn? There was more than one.
Since in Hebrews it says the way into the holy place has been opened through the rent veil of His flesh, I would hazard a guess it was the veil into the most holy place.
Picture these two compartments...the holy place, and the most holy place....each with a curtain in front of them. Now, you just said that the way into the holy place was opened through the rent veil of his flesh, and I believe that is what actually happened.
The curtain leading into that first compartment, the holy place, was visible to anyone outside, even from the spot of the crucifixion. When it was torn in two, at the moment it happened anyone who could see the temple could see this happen. This is what I believe indeed happened.
However, most read the text (and I used to read it the same way) as though it were the 2nd curtain, the inner one leading into the most holy place, that was torn. This curtain was not visible to anyone except the priests who would go into the holy place to serve there.
Only one curtain was torn, and was witnessed by spectators. This means that the other curtain was not torn. It was truly as you said when you quoted the text...'the way into the holy place'. This is not the same place as the most holy.
That is why I am saying I believe that we have access into the holy place as priests to serve God, but not yet into the most holy, for we still have a high priest, Yeshua, who has entered into that place and serves there now, in heaven. As Seth said, we are truly his body, we the parts and he the head, and so it is also true that we are already in the heavenly places, seated with Him at the right hand of God. In this sense I believe we are in the most holy place now.
When I speak of us as priests not serving in the most holy place, I am using another metaphor, not the one of the body of Messiah. The heavens are the most holy place, the earth where there are believers is the holy place. Everywhere there are believers living we are all serving and attending to holy matters on this earth in the holy place. The outer court is that same earth, but where unbelievers are. The barrier that used to exist, preventing man from going into the holy place to serve, no longer exists. Any one who is currently an unbeliever is invited to believe the good news and enter straightforth into the holy place with us and enjoy all that it is to be joined to God while still in our bodies on this earth. I believe this is typified by the city New Jerusalem, which has no temple. The entire city is the holy place and anyone outside of it (unbelievers) lives in the outer court, the holy land. The gates are always open for them.
Now, if one still wishes to say that the curtain that was torn was the inner one, that no outsider could see, leading into the most holy place, then they are entitled to that understanding. But that would then mean that the outer curtain leading into the holy place was left untouched. Who could say back then that they witnessed an inner veil being torn unless they were inside the holy place?
And Amen to our being the holy of holies (our heart where his spirit dwells), a truly beautiful picture of the temple, and in fact, all creation being in God (for there is no existence outside of him) does, in a certain sense, mean that we, and all creation, are in the most holy place, although it is relative, since he is everywhere, and in all, which means to me that anything said to be set apart from him can truly only be that which does not exist (which has no substance).
:girlheart:
16
Therefore from now on we recognize no one according to the flesh; even though we have known Christ according to the flesh, yet now we know Him in this way no longer.
17
Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creature; the old things passed away; behold, new things have come.
18 Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,...
for me being a priest is praying in the same will and desire of Christ for all mankind and being heard
Oh that God hears and answers perfectly
and faith is increased and wonderful works are done and healing and raising the dead happens
and all things gathered into Christ are ALIVE TO GOD
Eph 1
9 He made known to us the mystery of His will, according to His kind intention which He purposed in Him
10 with a view to an administration suitable to the fullness of the times, that is, the summing up of all things in Christ, things in the heavens and things on the earth. In Him
11 also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will,
we go there in the spirit my brother.......I saw heaven opened.......
:iagree: Same with sitting in heavenly places, etc. Very true realities, but not akin to our physicality.
:thumbsup: no-one puts new wine in old wineskins..for it will burst[rent vessel] but new wine is put in
new wineskins[first the natural..then the spiritual] =new creatures.....
Hi Gregoryfl,
I see your point and had thought that as well, and looking at your post- I believe it is correct, since everyone saw it, and it makes sense, because the testimony of Christ, "Forgive them Father, they don't know what they've done" is for all mankind.
Yet, In Hebrews 9 and 10 it seems clear to me that Christ, as our faithful high priest, enters the holiest place(despite the english translation, I will have to look into that) in the similitude of the yearly sacrifice the high priest of Israel made in the holiest place. A new and living way into the direct presence of God, "the heavenly things" being cleansed with better sacrifices, so that we can beome the holiest place, and so that we can enter the holiest place, depending where on the wheels within wheels you are at :o) The veil that was torn in His flesh, as i am reading in Hebrews, takes us all the way in to the holy of holies.
On the other side of that argument tho(I argue with myself all the time :o), The sprinkling with water took place at the bronze laver at the entrance to the holy place, "having our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil conscience and our bodies washed with pure water".
This also integrates with repentence(blood sprinkle, outer court) baptism(Bronze laver, middle court) and the promise of the Holy Spirit(Spirit descending over the mercy seat, holy of holies)
Also integrating with outer court(babes in Christ, carnal, many sacrifices for many sins, holy place(having sanctified her by the washing of water with the word, lampstand-teaching, taable of presence, fellowship),holiest place(golden altar of incense, martyrs under the altar in the heavenlies, entering into the priesthood, spirit of power ,love and a sound mind).
Wheels within wheels indeed. :banana:
I agree with EW that the veil torn was the holy place, but it doesn't matter with regard to access to the holy place. The high priest didn't need a torn veil to enter, just permission from God. We are the body of the High Priest. The torn veil is simply symbolic. The very fact that we have been given the Holy Spirit is proof positive in itself that we have access to the Holy Place because in type and shadow the Spirit was there. If we have no access to the Holy Place now, then our faith is in vain because cannot stand in the presence of God today where the Spirit resides. The promise is kaput in that case. If we have the Holy Spirit we absolutely must have access to the Holy Place because that place was the very type and shadow of the promise itself.
Having a chance to look at the Greek in Hebrews 10:19 here is what I see.
Hebrews
19 Therefore, brothers and sisters, since we have confidence to enter (Gk - eisodon) the Most Holy Place (Gk hagios) by the blood of Jesus, 20 by a new and living way opened for us through the curtain, that is, his body, 21 and since we have a great priest over the house of God, 22 let us draw near to God with a sincere heart and with the full assurance that faith brings, having our hearts sprinkled to cleanse us from a guilty conscience and having our bodies washed with pure water.
First, I notice that the context has to do with the high priest, and only the high priest could be in the presence of God, which Hebrews is encouraging us to do (not sure how we can draw near to God like the high priest without being able to go where the high priest goes).
The word "hagios" is used in Hebrews 9:8 and 9:12 and 9:25 in direct reference to the HOLIEST place, where the high priest entered alone every year. So in the above passage, we know that the context is also the Holiest Place of the temple.
Looking at "eisodon," I noticed a few other verses contain the word as well:
Acts 13:24
Before the coming (eisodou) of Jesus, John preached repentance and baptism to all the people of Israel.
1 Thess 1
9For they themselves shew of us what manner of entering in (eisodou) we had unto you, and how ye turned to God from idols to serve the living and true God;
1 Thess 2
1For yourselves, brethren, know our entrance in (eisodou) unto you, that it was not in vain:
2 Peter 1
10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance (eisodou) shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.
One thing I notice about all these uses, is that they all suggest a Point-A to Point-B journey, not a static room, like an entryway. They all suggest that a certain journey either has been made, will be made, or in the case of Hebrews 10:19 should be made in order to "draw near to God" by entering the holiest place like the High Priest.
Good food!
I was thinking about this today, and how that in the mindset of the Jews in Jesus' day, their understanding was of Moses' commandments and the actual, physical sacrifices that were made. This required actually going to the temple and bringing a real, physical sacrifice.
Can you imagine what is must have been like for the apostles to evangelize, telling their fellow Jews that they no longer needed to go to the temple, but that by Jesus' sacrifice, that they were now the temple! That must have been very difficult to explain and comprehend.
After thousands of years distance between us and the first church, we just take for granted the spiritual relationship afforded to us in Christ Jesus.
Much of the discussion had to do with the veils, but just realizing that we can commune with the God of creation at any time, anywhere for His comfort and strength and joy is truly awesome! :banana:
He is not far from each one of us; for in Him we live and move and exist Acts 17:27,28 :o)
Quote from: Seth on July 07, 2014, 10:54:58 PMIf we have no access to the Holy Place now, then our faith is in vain because cannot stand in the presence of God today where the Spirit resides. The promise is kaput in that case. If we have the Holy Spirit we absolutely must have access to the Holy Place because that place was the very type and shadow of the promise itself.
Absolutely true. Not sure who here is saying that we do not have access to the holy place, but it isn't me. :laughing7:
Quote from: Seth on July 08, 2014, 12:50:54 AMThe word "hagios" is used in Hebrews 9:8 and 9:12 and 9:25 in direct reference to the HOLIEST place, where the high priest entered alone every year. So in the above passage, we know that the context is also the Holiest Place of the temple.
We will have to disagree on this brother. But I will say that, however any of us understands the particulars of drawing close to God, whether it is by means of us serving in the holy place, as I and others understand it, or by means of us serving him all the way in the most holy place, as you and others would understand it, it is truly an awe inspiring privilege for us to be able to do so. Thank you for sharing your understanding of this.
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 08, 2014, 01:30:03 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 07, 2014, 10:54:58 PMIf we have no access to the Holy Place now, then our faith is in vain because cannot stand in the presence of God today where the Spirit resides. The promise is kaput in that case. If we have the Holy Spirit we absolutely must have access to the Holy Place because that place was the very type and shadow of the promise itself.
Absolutely true. Not sure who here is saying that we do not have access to the holy place, but it isn't me. :laughing7:
I know you are saying we can enter A holy place (the inner room), but if I compare two scriptures, I think it's clear to me that we can enter the "holiest place" where only the high priest can go.
Hebrews 9
7 But
into the second went the
high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the
holiest of all (hagion) was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the
holiest (hagion) by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
To me it is clear that the "most holy place" is the context. :HeartThrob:
Quote from: Seth on July 08, 2014, 07:46:06 PMI know you are saying we can enter A holy place (the inner room), but if I compare two scriptures, I think it's clear to me that we can enter the "holiest place" where only the high priest can go.
Hebrews 9
7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people: 8 The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all (hagion) was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
Hebrews 10
19 Having therefore, brethren, boldness to enter into the holiest (hagion) by the blood of Jesus, 20 By a new and living way, which he hath consecrated for us, through the veil, that is to say, his flesh;
To me it is clear that the "most holy place" is the context. :HeartThrob:
I can see where you are coming from. :thumbsup:
Based on the comparison of Jesus entering as the high priest did-not once a year - once for all, I agree that the context speaks to the most holy place.
I think at the end of the day, we all agree that we are able to draw near unto God through the Spirit, that he will hear us, and that there is no other mediator but One between God and man.
:dsunny:
Seth posted:
1 Corinthians 3
16Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? 17If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.
In as much as we have entry to the holiest place, the holiest place is within us!
This makes the most sense to me, we have the temple within us, lock, stock and barrel. We have all of the temple within us. That would include both veils as well as the Holy of Holies.
Included with that verse, that if any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy.
So, it may be that the temple is in everyone, how else could one defile it? And if that temple is our body, the wall around the temple, we know that will be destroyed, for flesh and blood cannot inherit the Kingdom of God.
Or, is it that the temple is just in those of faith, and that the outer wall is torn down as our sins are overcome?
Hmmm, more questions!
Jesus said His body was a Temple.
For all I know Jesus had a 100% human body. Exactly the same as that of the biggest pagan. Even God's Temple was once used for pagan purposes (swine offered to a greek god)
An interesting thing to consider is that the temple of Jesus was destroyed and rebuild before he got His glorified body. But the was, obviously, not related to sin.
Quote from: Seth on July 08, 2014, 11:50:04 PM
I think at the end of the day, we all agree that we are able to draw near unto God through the Spirit, that he will hear us, and that there is no other mediator but One between God and man.
:dsunny:
For sure.
I know it may sound contradictory for me to say that I believe we, as physical human beings, are only able to enter into the holy place as priests to serve God, the veil of our physical flesh preventing access into the innermost compartment, (which is why we walk by faith) and yet...
as members of Messiah's body, in spirit we HAVE entered and currently are in the holy of holies, sitting in heavenly places at the right of God...
but that is currently how I have been able to reconcile the outer curtain being torn, and the reason for it being so.
Another take on this is that the bride comes out of the body/side. To do so the veil/skin has to be rented.
Just like the bride, Eve came out the side of the groom Adam.
Quote from: gregoryfl on July 09, 2014, 04:09:29 PM
Quote from: Seth on July 08, 2014, 11:50:04 PM
I think at the end of the day, we all agree that we are able to draw near unto God through the Spirit, that he will hear us, and that there is no other mediator but One between God and man.
:dsunny:
For sure.
I know it may sound contradictory for me to say that I believe we, as physical human beings, are only able to enter into the holy place as priests to serve God, the veil of our physical flesh preventing access into the innermost compartment, (which is why we walk by faith) and yet...
as members of Messiah's body, in spirit we HAVE entered and currently are in the holy of holies, sitting in heavenly places at the right of God...
but that is currently how I have been able to reconcile the outer curtain being torn, and the reason for it being so.
In that case, I think we see thing similarly. Again, the inner curtain did not need to be torn for the high priest to enter. While I believe the inner curtain was torn, if that's wrong and it was the outer curtain, that does not preclude us from entering the inner room. It would mean we have the right to enter the priesthood. But, We are only priests because we are the body of the high priest. The high priest may enter regardless of a torn curtain and he carries us with him.
That said, I believe our access to the inner room is a twofold thing. We have the Holy Spirit in earnest of future glory. Our access to the inner room is symbolic of the gift of the Spirit. So I believe we have access to that room in earnest of future glory, where the process will be complete when we throw off this mortal body.
Quote from: Seth on July 09, 2014, 06:47:14 PMIn that case, I think we see thing similarly. Again, the inner curtain did not need to be torn for the high priest to enter. While I believe the inner curtain was torn, if that's wrong and it was the outer curtain, that does not preclude us from entering the inner room. It would mean we have the right to enter the priesthood. But, We are only priests because we are the body of the high priest. The high priest may enter regardless of a torn curtain and he carries us with him.
That said, I believe our access to the inner room is a twofold thing. We have the Holy Spirit in earnest of future glory. Our access to the inner room is symbolic of the gift of the Spirit. So I believe we have access to that room in earnest of future glory, where the process will be complete when we throw off this mortal body.
:gimmefive:
For seed to be implanted, the veil(hymen) must break so that the womb can be opened to receive the seed.
1 Pet 1:22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
James 1:21 Therefore, putting aside all filthiness and all that remains of wickedness, in humility receive the word implanted, which is able to save your souls.
As Mary was the womb of the living word for the earth(mankind), a young virgin of Israel, and the representative member of His betrothed, the heavenly Israel of God- Now the word is implanted in the souls of mankind, all who receive it bearing the fruit of children of God.
Those who are betrothed are waiting faithfully, preparing for the arrival of their betrothed, "The King's daughter is all glorious within".
The Bride is coming down out of the heavens (being revealed in the earth) as the age concludes, she is also the city of God, heavenly Jerusalm- "God is known in her palaces for a refuge"(Psalm 48), prepared as a bride for the bridegroom, clothed in white linen(the righteous acts of the saints).
These are all metaphors for the faithful, who will be the mountain of the Lord in the ages to come,as they are now(Heb12) and His Bride as well, giving birth to children numbering as the sands of the sea and the stars in the universe.
Micah 4:1
And it will come about in the last days
That the mountain of the house of the Lord
Will be established as the chief of the mountains.
It will be raised above the hills,
And the peoples will stream to it.
2 Many nations will come and say,
"Come and let us go up to the mountain of the Lord
And to the house of the God of Jacob,
That He may teach us about His ways
And that we may walk in His paths."
For from Zion will go forth the law,
Even the word of the Lord from Jerusalem.
3 And He will judge between many peoples
And render decisions for mighty, distant nations.
And we shall be priests.
2 Corinthians 5:18
Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation, namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.
My favorite parable:
Luk 8:5 A sower went out to sow his seed: and as he sowed, some fell by the way side; and it was trodden down, and the fowls of the air devoured it.
Luk 8:6 And some fell upon a rock; and as soon as it was sprung up, it withered away, because it lacked moisture.
Luk 8:7 And some fell among thorns; and the thorns sprang up with it, and choked it.
Luk 8:8 And other fell on good ground, and sprang up, and bare fruit an hundredfold. And when he had said these things, he
EW posts about the seed, although in a different context. "As Mary was the womb of the living word for the earth(mankind), a young virgin of Israel, and the representative member of His betrothed, the heavenly Israel of God- Now the word is implanted in the souls of mankind, all who receive it bearing the fruit of children of God."
In the parable, the seed is spread everywhere. This has been mentioned elsewhere, but would this signify that the Holy Spirit is given to all men, and all have the opportunity unto righteousness? And/or is it referring to the Gospel, the Word of God being preached to all?
Rev_3:8 I know thy works: behold, I have set before thee an open door, and no man can shut it: for thou hast a little strength, and hast kept my word, and hast not denied my name.
Would this verse from Revelation be stating basically the same thing? Is the open door for all mankind, or just to this church?
My personal opinion is that in this particular parable Jesus is speaking to how people respond to the seed in this age,(many are called but few are chosen)but the seed has been sown for all mankind and eventually all will receive it.
As to your point about all mankind, I like the parable of the leaven hidden in three measures of meal, which i personally believe represents the three ages of reconciliation beginning with this age(the age of gathering the ecclessia-callled out ones). Eventually all three measures of meal are leavened(the gathering together into one of all in Christ).
and... the Holy Spirit is an ear?
"He who hath an ear" said to every church in Revelation
Rom 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.
Rom 10:18 But I say, Have they not heard? Yes verily, their sound went into all the earth, and their words unto the ends of the world.
Heb 3:7 Wherefore (as the Holy Ghost saith, To day if ye will hear his voice,
Joh 16:13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.
Eph 1:12 That we should be to the praise of his glory, who first trusted in Christ.
Eph 1:13 In whom ye also trusted, after that ye heard the word of truthh, the gospel of your salvation: in whom also after that ye believed, ye were sealed with that holy Spirit of promise,
Eph 1:14 Which is the earnest of our inheritance until the redemption of the purchased possession, unto the praise of his glory.
Eph 1:15 Wherefore I also, after I heard of your faith in the Lord Jesus, and love unto all the saints,
Eph 1:16 Cease not to give thanks for you, making mention of you in my prayers;
Eph 1:17 That the God of our Lord Jesus Christ, the Father of glory, may give unto you the spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of him:
So as the ear hears (receives) the Word of God, and as the Earth is planted (receives) the seed (the Word), and as Mary "received" of the Holy Ghost. They are all receiving God. In every instance, it is God giving, giving the Gift of Faith, whereby we can believe.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Not only does he give us the Word, he gives us the Ear (Holy Spirit) to hear!
EW - I saw your post while I was typing. I love that. Especially in the light of witnessing to TOB christians. :gimmefive:
Matt 13:3 He told many stories in the form of parables, such as this one: "Listen! A farmer went out to plant some seeds.
Matt 13:4 As he scattered them across his field, some seeds fell on a footpath, and the birds came and ate them.
Matt 13:5 Other seeds fell on shallow soil with underlying rock. The seeds sprouted quickly because the soil was shallow.
Matt 13:6 But the plants soon wilted under the hot sun, and since they didn't have deep roots, they died.
Matt 13:7 Other seeds fell among thorns that grew up and choked out the tender plants.
Matt 13:8 Still other seeds fell on fertile soil, and they produced a crop that was thirty, sixty, and even a hundred times as much as had been planted!
Matt 13:9 Anyone with ears to hear should listen and understand."
The parable shows that rocky soil and foothpath yields no harvest. But the verse below shows that even the worst soil, rocky foothpaths, will produce crops.
Psa 65:11 You crown the year with a bountiful harvest; even the hard pathways overflow with abundance.