I look at it like a sudoku puzzle http://www.sudokupuzz.com/
Verse: It's easy to fill out a single row inside a small box.
Paragraph: It becomes a little harder if the whole box needs to be solved.
Book: A whole group of squares need to match.
Bible: A multi square sudoku. Many interconnected numbers. http://www.conceptispuzzles.com/index.aspx?uri=channel/funnel-model/133/play
Ok what is all that weird puzzle crap about you might ask.
All doctrines fit in part of the puzzle's sub grids. The better the doctrine the more sub grids it fits in.
But I'm convinced only one doctrine fits all sub grids in the most advanced puzzle.
During the ET vs UR debates I often noticed only that small subgrid is taken into account. And then it's often quite easy to fit and support a doctrine in it.
Did anyone ever try to solve the whole puzzle in a debate/book?
Trinity as an example. There are good explanations why the trinity concept is true and equally good arguments that its a false concept.
I'm not here to start a debate about trinity. Just an example. So we could say the trinity concept is a draw.
Endless debates won't solve that issue. But now assume somehow for thousands of years one very clear verse is overlooked that gives absolute clarity directly about (non) Trinity.
That would end the debate.
So... are there any UR verses that are not debunked by ET? In my simple vision if there is only 1 verse that undeniable proves UR every other UR/ET verse is simply UR too.
There are no contradiction/mistakes in the Bible.
Is there such a verse?
Otherwise, I fear, the only solution is solving the advanced sudoku. That will gives us the only right doctrine. But I think our brains are to tiny to solve it.
Only Jesus was at that level I think.
This concludes another nutcracker post :laughing7:
Your puzzle can't be solved using any ONE scripture, wabbit! :icon_flower:
Psalm 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth [the total of the full meaning of all Your individual precepts]; and every one of Your righteous decrees endures forever.
Example: God is love. But what does that mean? You have to read His Word....which happens to be many, to get the full meaning of that! Same thing with ET or UR/US.
But try this progression out:
God WILLS that all mankind be SAVED (I Tim.2:4).
But will God's will be done?
Thy WILL be done... (Mat. 6:10).
God is LOVE (I John 4:8).
But will God's love fail to save all humanity?
LOVE NEVER FAILS (I Cor. 13:10).
Joyce :)
Quote from: joyful1 on August 30, 2008, 01:23:10 PM
Your puzzle can't be solved using any ONE scripture, wabbit! :icon_flower:
You must be a ace at a game of Twister. The word version of it... :laughing7:
QuotePsalm 119:160
The sum of Your word is truth [the total of the full meaning of all Your individual precepts]; and every one of Your righteous decrees endures forever.
Exactly what my post was about.
QuoteExample: God is love. But what does that mean? You have to read His Word....which happens to be many, to get the full meaning of that! Same thing with ET or UR/US.
Now we are getting somewhere. This is useless to prove a doctrine.
QuoteBut try this progression out:
God WILLS that all mankind be SAVED (I Tim.2:4).
But will God's will be done?
Thy WILL be done... (Mat. 6:10).
Two words that are seen diffrently. So of no use to win the ET/UR debate.
All: Means all (UR). Mean the elect/certain group (ET)
Will: Will 100% certain happen (UR). Will just mean would like it to happen. But not enfoced (ET)
QuoteGod is LOVE (I John 4:8).
But will God's love fail to save all humanity?
LOVE NEVER FAILS (I Cor. 13:10).
But it isn't always accepted so many go into the pit anyway (ET)
So thanks for proving my point Joyce :thumbsup:
So I stick to my point that either ET of UR are proved right by a single undiscovered verse. Very unlikely.
Or that we should put all controversial verses is a table. Then see which doctrine fits with all verses without twisting its own words.
Admit it, wabbit...you've finally driven yourself mad. :laughing7:
You SAID:
So... are there any UR verses that are not debunked by ET? In my simple vision if there is only 1 verse that undeniable proves UR every other UR/ET verse is simply UR too.
There are no contradiction/mistakes in the Bible.
Is there such a verse?
Otherwise, I fear, the only solution is solving the advanced sudoku. That will gives us the only right doctrine. But I think our brains are to tiny to solve it.
Only Jesus was at that level I think.
You made a mistake by begining your puzzle using DOCTRINES (multiple verses put together to prove a truth.)
Then you SWITCHED to SINGLE VERSES....
you CANT do that! The grids cannot contain SINGLE VERSES for the very reasons I gave above.
Quote from: joyful1 on August 30, 2008, 06:46:55 PM
Admit it, wabbit...you've finally driven yourself mad. :laughing7:
The insane, can't diagnose insanity!
So stop trying Joyce! :laughing7: :laughing7:
Quote from: joyful1 on August 30, 2008, 06:52:53 PM
You SAID:
So... are there any UR verses that are not debunked by ET? In my simple vision if there is only 1 verse that undeniable proves UR every other UR/ET verse is simply UR too.
There are no contradiction/mistakes in the Bible.
Is there such a verse?
Otherwise, I fear, the only solution is solving the advanced sudoku. That will gives us the only right doctrine. But I think our brains are to tiny to solve it.
Only Jesus was at that level I think.
You made a mistake by begining your puzzle using DOCTRINES (multiple verses put together to prove a truth.)
Then you SWITCHED to SINGLE VERSES....
you CANT do that! The grids cannot contain SINGLE VERSES for the very reasons I gave above.
I admit I did write kinda cryptical.
Let me try to re explain.
There are say 1000 verses that can be interpenetrated as UR
and ET
But is there a verse (or a few) that is only interpretable as UR
or ET
So a single verse that is the key to all other verses. Not 1 verse that summarizes the whole Bible...
White Wings,
That is what I have done since the Lord told me how. I continue to tell people, the only way you can know a position is to know all the positions without favoring any of them and then the process of overlaying it. I know most positions that ET takes, and I also know most the positions that UR takes, not all ET positions are correct, not all UR positions are correct. Everything is interconnected.
Craig,
So you have found flaws in both UR and ET. But have you found the solution to the complete puzzle?
Your own version of UR.
Are those flaws real important flaws or just on the level of grammer?
For example I noticed that you and Gary have a differnt interpretion of the duration of aion.
For me that's of less importance because both of you end at the same conclusion by taking slighly diffrent routes.
I also don't really care about if teh trinity doctrine is true or not. Surely it's good to study and know about it.
But to be honest for me God wouldn't be the slightest bit less holy or supreme if He is or isn't a trinity.
That said I can understand other do care. I've just started building my framework. I'm even not 100% finished building my out frame - does God exist. The next important framework is ET or UR.
Is your puzzle solved or are you still struggling with a few pieces?
I'll swap you the answer to your Sudoku puzzle for the meaning of the word: interpenetrated :Chinscratch:
c'mon wabbit...you know I hate loosing an argument!
Here's the deal: you may find several "UR/US" verses that define the doctrine without alluding to ET ...but this whole exercise does not seem to be a fruitful endeavor to me....
Faith has to enter into the equation.
Your calculator/conscious mind cannot hold the band width that God transmits on--it takes MORE than that!
Look...
can you PROVE that someone LOVES YOU?
Think about it....you really can't! You can point to the gifts that person gives you--but that proves nothing....you can show how this person DID this or that for you....proves nothing once again...you can even quote their WORDS....
But this does NOT PROVE that they love you--you just have to KNOW that someone loves you in a way that is unmeasured/uncalculated/unproven, even.
On the other hand that other person can NOT love you...yet appear to in all of the above
The best that you can do....is to HOPE that they genuinely love you--and quite frankly the greatest test of love on a human level is the one that Jesus passed--by giving His life.
Romans 8:24-26
24 For in this hope we were saved. But hope that is seen is no hope at all. Who hopes for what he already has?
25 But if we hope for what we do not yet have, we wait for it patiently.
26 In the same way, the Spirit helps us in our weakness. We do not know what we ought to pray for, but the Spirit himself intercedes for us with groans that words cannot express.
In the end, I can say that i am sure of everything....but there is a part of me that only knows HOPE and FAITH and LOVE....
the greatest, of course, being love.
In the end...I am a woman adrift in a very big sea of space and time....being carried along toward that distant celestial city, that I am begining to get a glimpse of even now....in the end....I HOPE and PRAY that I am right about what I've declared in my days. Since what we see is made from what we DON"T see...there remains a lot that is un-seen. The "imperceptable place of the dead, " for starters! And after all, are not His ways higher than mine? and are not His ways "past finding out?"
How can I say that I know it all, when my boat is so small and the ocean is so big?
Yet I hope with a certainty. A certainty, a faith, that is not my own, otherwise, I could boast about it!
This is the best that I can give you for the missing part of your puzzle.
Joyce :)
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2008, 07:27:18 PM
I admit I did write kinda cryptical.
Let me try to re explain.
There are say 1000 verses that can be interpenetrated as UR and ET
But is there a verse (or a few) that is only interpretable as UR or ET
So a single verse that is the key to all other verses. Not 1 verse that summarizes the whole Bible...
As a followup.
The translation of the word aion is a/the
key to the whole Bible.
That little word makes a huge difference to 95% of humanity. Eternal BBQ or eternal happiness.
So basicly my question is if there also is a such a verse.
"interpenetrated" => spellchecker gone wild. :-) Interpretation.
(don't grab your dictionary because teh word is not suited for ladies...)
Quotec'mon wabbit...you know I hate loosing an argument!
Just don't loose your salvation...
Quote
Faith has to enter into the equation.
Your calculator/conscious mind cannot hold the band width that God transmits on--it takes MORE than that!
100% true.
Also 100% true for me is that I can't see something flawed as a divine teaching. So I have clear up those things before I can get openminded on this. Most of you seem to have some voices in your head. Even from early childhood.
I don't have that edge. If the Bible states that 11+11=18 then I can let that go until I figured out it's not decimal but octal to give an example noone cares about :-)
Now I'm just blocking faith I guess. Yes, I know a weird answer for someone spamming a Christian site. But it's an honest answer...
Quotecan you PROVE that someone LOVES YOU?
Would be hard. But easier would be to prove someone hates me. Just like you can't prove a negative...
You know Joyce, I really understand you. Some things can't be calculated. Like love. But before you can love you need to know the person.
I just entered the room and said hi.
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2008, 11:34:16 PM
Craig,
So you have found flaws in both UR and ET. But have you found the solution to the complete puzzle?
Your own version of UR.
Are those flaws real important flaws or just on the level of grammer?
For example I noticed that you and Gary have a differnt interpretion of the duration of aion.
For me that's of less importance because both of you end at the same conclusion by taking slighly diffrent routes.
I also don't really care about if teh trinity doctrine is true or not. Surely it's good to study and know about it.
But to be honest for me God wouldn't be the slightest bit less holy or supreme if He is or isn't a trinity.
That said I can understand other do care. I've just started building my framework. I'm even not 100% finished building my out frame - does God exist. The next important framework is ET or UR.
Is your puzzle solved or are you still struggling with a few pieces?
My definition of aion is the definition which is actually found in most including ET concordance. There is no guarantee that an age will end, unless it specifically says so. That doesn't mean aion means infinite, it means a indeterminate duration. Which if I am not mistaken is exactly how Gary defines it.
The biggest problem in Christianese, is the addition of presumptions into definitions.
When people say an aion is an indeterminate duration with a beginning
and end, they are actually going beyond the words definition. Although in almost all cases an aion does have both beginning and end. Never however, does aion ever represent "no end" or "infinite" or "perpetuality" on it's own.
That is the work of adjectives and syntax. In other words, an age that does not end, or an endless age, is an aion that never end. See? There is no reason to presume presumption into a definition. I know why people do it, they are just trying to convey what they are saying as simple as possible but the problem it will never be 100% correct as a result.
Whether we get to the same conclusion, is not because we took different routes, it is because it is most obviously a revelation. What we do then, is go backwards from the conclusion and using all resources available and look for the routes which may have resulted in that conclusion we received by revelation, not all routes are correct.
When the Lord revealed to me the conclusion, He told me specifically not to read what other Universalism teachers are teaching for six months. He said there are many who have this revelation but not the patience and so teach contrary to what is true. So for six months, I went into deep study where I asked God all my questions and He would reveal the answer through dreams and Scripture. I would wake up and write down what I had experienced and the Scriptures that came to me in the dream. Then when I was released, I came on to the UR scene already fully equipped with the basic knowledge of how it was done without re-inventing words, re-inventing Christianity, re-inventing rudimentary philosophical concepts which have proved themselves from time to time to be accurate. Which to my surprise was rare in UR/CU teaching and that confirmed to me why the Lord told me not to read UR teachers until I was equipped.
Quote from: SOtW on August 30, 2008, 11:13:07 PM
White Wings,
That is what I have done since the Lord told me how. I continue to tell people, the only way you can know a position is to know all the positions without favoring any of them and then the process of overlaying it. I know most positions that ET takes, and I also know most the positions that UR takes, not all ET positions are correct, not all UR positions are correct. Everything is interconnected.
Craig is right, scripture is different from any other type of Book. You can't know the whole from the part, so you can only learn the parts from the whole. The Spirit willing of course! :high5:
Paul
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2008, 11:40:53 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 30, 2008, 07:27:18 PM
I admit I did write kinda cryptical.
Let me try to re explain.
There are say 1000 verses that can be interpenetrated as UR and ET
But is there a verse (or a few) that is only interpretable as UR or ET
So a single verse that is the key to all other verses. Not 1 verse that summarizes the whole Bible...
As a followup.
The translation of the word aion is a/the key to the whole Bible.
That little word makes a huge difference to 95% of humanity. Eternal BBQ or eternal happiness.
So basicly my question is if there also is a such a verse.
Many think, as I once did, that the question of whether Jesus saves a few and the rest are tortured ceaslessly for ever or if He actually is the Savior of all is resolved over the validity of "eternal," "for ever" and the like in our translations (which is easily and abundantly shown imposible to be right, even from English language examples alone.) Actually we can determine the truth of the matter along other lines. As far as I can find, the word "eonian" vs. "eternal" affects only two verses such that it may be used to determine in those instances whether or not there is ceasless torment forever or not. This is because these are two of the only three places in the N.T. that the question of the duration of suffering could even be a possibility of being addressed. The 3rd one is Rev 21:4, "...neither shall there be any more pain..." I consider myself free to believe this clear statement in the ulimited way it was spoken. Whatever pain did will have been done. It has no more usefulness already for that deathless, incorruptible and ascended state Jesus has entered into. Consider also that we are members of one another, and members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. (Eph 4:25; 5:30) We are already connected to His body of glory. This, "No more pain" He says, "Has been done!" (Rev 21:6, literal)
One of the other two references has "everlasting punishment" in the King James Version. Not a form of Greek:
paideuo, "discipline," or, "train", the English word used, "punishment," is here Greek:
kolazo (
kolasis is another form of the same word) in the original. This is to be contrasted with the true "punish" words, "
timoreo," or, "
timoria" which contain the roots "value" and "lift." "Aristotle distinguishes
timoreo from
kolasis (chasten,) which is disciplinary and has reference to the one who suffers, while
timoreo is penal and has referrence to the satisfaction of the one who inflicts. Plato is in agreement. Scripture bears this out. " (cf., CLV, concordance) Chastening which has an intended result of bettering the one exercised thereby is enough to disqualify it for teaching unending "punishing." It is not perpetual, an end in itself. It is interesting to note that the KJV English here only has "punish
ment," not "punish
ing" which would be necessary if the translators intended to convey continuous suffering. An example of "everlasting punishment" would be God never permited King David to build the temple because he was a man of war.
The remaining verse is in Rev 20:10 where it can't be settled whether or not it even applies to people. The devil certainly isn't a man. A false prophet according to John is a spirit. "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world. Hereby know ye the Spirit of God: Every spirit that confesseth that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is of God..." (1Jn 4:1-2) "Wild beast" would seem a poor choice if God meant only a certain man, such is sometimes said to have been just Nero. I undertand them to mean entities that operate through man: my animal flesh nature (beast), my religious flesh nature (false prophet) and the energizing spirit in opposition to God and good (devil.)
Revelation 21:2-8
2. And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
3. And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
4. And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying,
neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.5. And he that sat upon the throne said, Behold, I make all things new. And he said unto me, Write: for these words are true and faithful.
6. And he said unto me,
It is done. I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end. I will give unto him that is athirst of the fountain of the water of life freely.
7. He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son.
8. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death.
No more Pain! It has been done! Death has no more dominion over us!Romans 6:9-11:
9. Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more;
death hath no more dominion over him.
10. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.
11.
Likewise reckon ye also yourselves to be dead indeed unto sin, but alive unto God through Jesus Christ our Lord.
your brother, James M. Rohde
Quote from: reFORMer on August 31, 2008, 06:50:14 AM
The 3rd one is Rev 21:4, "...neither shall there be any more pain..." I consider myself free to believe this clear statement in the ulimited way it was spoken. Whatever pain did will have been done. It has no more usefulness already for that deathless, incorruptible and ascended state Jesus has entered into. Consider also that we are members of one another, and members of His body, of His flesh and of His bones. (Eph 4:25; 5:30) We are already connected to His body of glory. This, "No more pain" He says, "Has been done!" (Rev 21:6, literal)
I'm sure the ET folk read it as "...no more pain in Heaven."
QuoteOne of the other two references has "everlasting punishment" in the King James Version. Not a form of Greek: paideuo, "discipline," or, "train", the English word used, "punishment," is here Greek: kolazo (kolasis is another form of the same word) in the original. This is to be contrasted with the true "punish" words, "timoreo," or, "timoria" which contain the roots "value" and "lift." "Aristotle distinguishes timoreo from kolasis (chasten,) which is disciplinary and has reference to the one who suffers, while timoreo is penal and has referrence to the satisfaction of the one who inflicts.
Sorry to be so negative on a your quality post.
I've read an ET answer on that. I can't remember the exact words. God punishes for their sins and would stop after a certain time. But because they are so utterly rotten to the core they curse the Lord for causing them pain. And because of the cursing they need more punishment. More cursing etc etc
QuoteThe remaining verse is in Rev 20:10 where it can't be settled whether or not it even applies to people. The devil certainly isn't a man.
ET: Because angles are also a creation of God; He loves them as much as humans. Therefore God shows He is totally unbiased by roasting angels and humans in the same lake.
Again thanks for your post. As negative as my answers may sound it was really a learning point for me reading your post.
But I just have to be so utterly negative. You know why? When I read on this site I get a relaxed feeling. "Yep all in Heaven"
Then I go to one of the ET sites and think: "Looks like reFORMer was wrong."
So I have to build an armor for myself. I'm doing that by reacting negative and hoping all my negativity is debunked!
(http://www.myarchive.us/richc/et.jpg)