Briefly--
My current POV on SIN of the world and just a very few Scriptures that have influenced my POV.
John 1:29 ...behold the Lamb of God which taketh away the SIN of the world.
SIN(singular)=unbelief
Matthew 1:21 ...call His name JESUS; for He shall save his people from their sins.
sins (plural)= sins committed because of unbelief.
John 16
v. 8 and when He comes, He will reprove the world of sin...
v. 9 Of sin, because they believe not on me.
John 17
v. 20 neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall BELIEVE ON ME through their word.
v. 21That they all may be one; as thou Father art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: THAT THE WORLD MAY BELIEVE that thou hast sent me.
John 12
v. 47 and if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not; for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.
John 4
v. 42 ... now we believe, not because of thy saying; for we have heard him ourselves, and know that this is indeed the Christ, THE SAVIOR OF THE WORLD.
Sin of the world=a singular, one world.
Sins of the people=plural, many.
CHB
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
(which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
The Sin of the world was unbelief.
Every person on the face of the earth no matter what or you he believes in.
Has felt or believed God had forsaken him.
GOD DID NOT FORSAKE JESUS.
It was the man of Jesus in unbelief uttering these statements.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
Gods answer to Jesus was death.
Jesus answer to God .
IT IS FINISHED!!!
To the Glory of God, Jesus over came death and rose again.
Alleluia The Lamb Of God Slain for the SIN of the world.
Me now weeping.
When I first realized that Jesus died for unbelief.
I was free for the first time to believe freely.
It was not a requirement.
I was simply free to believe for no other reason than I believe.
There was no longer a reason for Hell the punishment for unbelief.
Hell completely disappeared from my consensus.
I am FREE I am Free I am Free I am Free
What about where it says "where there is no law there is no sin" Or without law there is no sin" or something to that effect. Can't think of where to find it right now. Anyway, it sounds as if breaking law is the sin.
CHB
Quote from: dajomaco on October 21, 2012, 08:51:08 PM
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
(which means "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
The Sin of the world was unbelief.
Every person on the face of the earth no matter what or you he believes in.
Has felt or believed God had forsaken him.
GOD DID NOT FORSAKE JESUS.
It was the man of Jesus in unbelief uttering these statements.
Eloi, Eloi, lema sabachthani?"
Gods answer to Jesus was death.
Jesus answer to God .
IT IS FINISHED!!!
To the Glory of God, Jesus over came death and rose again.
Alleluia The Lamb Of God Slain for the SIN of the world.
Me now weeping.
When I first realized that Jesus died for unbelief.
I was free for the first time to believe freely.
It was not a requirement.
I was simply free to believe for no other reason than I believe.
There was no longer a reason for Hell the punishment for unbelief.
Hell completely disappeared from my consensus.
I am FREE I am Free I am Free I am Free
Thank you for sharing... I've done a great deal of studying on faith, unbelief, believe, etc., and had not SEEN the possibility of Jesus' words on the cross being words of unbelief... you have given me much to ponder...along with a quote that I had earlier written in my Quotable Quotes notebook by Oswald Chambers "The Christian faith means that the historic Cross of Christ is the pinhole in actual history through which we get a view of the purpose of God all through."
I've learned that God has such unique ways to bring/to draw us to Himself...your personal testimony certainly testifies to His unique ways... and has opened up for me yet another way to view the cross -- to praise, thank, worship our awesome God... Peace, Mercy, Grace, Love in Christ
There is a question as to whether Jesus spoke these words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
I don't believe Jesus thought the Father had forsaken him because Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone." Jesus knew why he was here and what was going to happen to him. I don't think Jesus had any doubt as to whether God had forsaken him.
CHB
Thank you, CHB -
I took all three of your replies to this thread to the Lord and asked Him to show me what it is that He desires for me to learn from them.
Quote from: CHB on October 22, 2012, 01:22:33 AM
There is a question as to whether Jesus spoke these words, "My God, my God, why have you forsaken me?").
I don't believe Jesus thought the Father had forsaken him because Jesus said "my Father never leaves me alone." Jesus knew why he was here and what was going to happen to him. I don't think Jesus had any doubt as to whether God had forsaken him.
CHB
Of coarse Jesus did not think God would forsake him.
The cross is for us he died for our unbelief.
Every word Jesus spoke out loud was for us.
He did not speak out loud so that God would hear him
All sins everywhere, through all time, by anybody and everybody = the sin of the world.
Reformer :thumbsup:
IMO, I think Jesus only felt as though the Father had left him. Jesus knew that hanging on the cross
was his purpose for coming into the world and that the Father was always with him BUT, if unbelief is sin(and it is)
then I don't think Jesus actually believed the Father had abandoned Him. I believe he was surprised at how awful seperation from God would be as he had never experienced it previously. and yes... since scriptures says Jesus grew in knowledge, that meant he learned, which meant he wasn't born with full knowledge.
In addition, there is a difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing it experientially.
The Father knows everything and is omniscient, yet, it wasn't until AFTER Abraham was all set up to plunge the knife in Isaacs chest that the Father said, "NOW I KNOW that you fear God BECAUSE you have not withheld from me your son, your only son"
Yes, the Father knew intellectually beforehand what would happen with Abraham, but it was during the test that God knew it experientially.
What I'm saying is, Jesus was God learning things experientially that previously he had only known intellectually.
Quote from: ded2daworld on October 22, 2012, 09:01:49 AM
Reformer :thumbsup:
IMO, I think Jesus only felt as though the Father had left him. Jesus knew that hanging on the cross
was his purpose for coming into the world and that the Father was always with him BUT, if unbelief is sin(and it is)
then I don't think Jesus actually believed the Father had abandoned Him. I believe he was surprised at how awful seperation from God would be as he had never experienced it previously. and yes... since scriptures says Jesus grew in knowledge, that meant he learned, which meant he wasn't born with full knowledge.
In addition, there is a difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing it experientially.
The Father knows everything and is omniscient, yet, it wasn't until AFTER Abraham was all set up to plunge the knife in Isaacs chest that the Father said, "NOW I KNOW that you fear God BECAUSE you have not withheld from me your son, your only son"
Yes, the Father knew intellectually beforehand what would happen with Abraham, but it was during the test that God knew it experientially.
What I'm saying is, Jesus was God learning things experientially that previously he had only known intellectually.
Thanks-- reminded me of:
Heb 2:17-18 NLT
v 17 Therefore, it was necessary for him to be made in every respect like us, his brothers and sisters, so that he could be our merciful and faithful High Priest before God. Then He could offer a sacrifice that would take away the sins of the people.
v 18 Since he himself has gone through suffering and testing, he is able to help us when we are being tested.
"Not only as God He knows our trials; but also as man He knows them by experimental feeling."
I'm not certain who I am quoting...I sometimes quickly write a quote in my notebook and quickly forget to write the name of the person I'm quoting.
In addition, there is a difference between knowing something intellectually and knowing it experientially.
The Father knows everything and is omniscient, yet, it wasn't until AFTER Abraham was all set up to plunge the knife in Isaacs chest that the Father said, "NOW I KNOW that you fear God BECAUSE you have not withheld from me your son, your only son"
Yes, the Father knew intellectually beforehand what would happen with Abraham, but it was during the test that God knew it experientially.
What I'm saying is, Jesus was God learning things experientially that previously he had only known intellectually.
IMO It was Isaac who found out that he could Sacrifice his only son.
I don't think God Learned the Pain of Sacrifice and Separation.
Using the combined wisdom of all wisdom in the universe, he taught
us and showed us on the Cross, that he new the pain that man has endured
by being separated from Him.
We were with him before the foundation of the earth.
We are now reconciled with Him long past the end of all ends.
The Cross was Love before the foundation.
The Cross is the foundation of Love.
Love is and was and for ever shall be.
because "God is love and in him there is no darkness - none."
Quote from: CHB on October 21, 2012, 09:45:12 PM
What about where it says "where there is no law there is no sin" Or without law there is no sin" or something to that effect. Can't think of where to find it right now. Anyway, it sounds as if breaking law is the sin.
CHB
IMO, The law is "a tutor to lead us to Christ". It makes sin "all the more sinful". It shows forth the fruits of the "sin of the world" (unbelief) by provoking the sinful(unbelieving) nature to life, manifesting "sins" that grow out of "an evil heart of unbelief".
Flesh and law=sin
CHB
Absolutely
Basically, the question being posed in this thread is this: Is everyone "saved" now? Is everyone "in Christ" now? Well for some, this gets obviously heretical RIGHT AWAY! And to even begin to discuss those questions you first have to define "saved" and "in Christ"... or whatever term you want to put in the quotes. And does "saved" or "in Christ" mean the same thing?
I'm not going to attempt to write a book and break it all down. I have no conclusive answers. I have come to no conclusions.
It is something I have been wrestling with for a few weeks now. I feel like Neo realizing what the Matrix is for the first time.
I know I am a son of God because of the work of Jesus the Messiah. I am a believer. I know I have His Spirit within me. I know God is Love.
Here are a few thoughts I've had [not all originating from me, but a conglomeration of things I've read and heard from other believers]:
1.) We need to get out of this mindset of "us" and "them". The "haves" and the "have nots". Those who have rejected Christ and hurt me and rejected me and so need to burn in Hell, and those who haven't rejected Christ and haven't hurt me as much, who I have to love anyway, who will make it to heaven. Such a mindset is not peace.
2.) Certainly and without question, something happens upon belief and realization of God's Love manifested in the Finished Work of Jesus the Messiah... we receive the Spirit and adoption as Sons... while the rest are still children.
3.) Finally, this just isn't logical:
Behold the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world. But if you do not believe that the Lamb of God took away the sin of the world, then the Lamb of God who takes away the sin of the world doesn't take away the sin of not believing He took away the sin of the world!
OR to say it another way:
Jesus paid the penalty for all sin, for all people, for all time, on the cross. But if you don't believe that He paid the penalty for sin, then the sin of not believing He paid the penalty for sin, is not paid for!
22 So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, "Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects. 23 For while I was passing through and examining the objects of your worship, I also found an altar with this inscription, 'TO AN UNKNOWN GOD.' Therefore what you worship in ignorance, this I proclaim to you. 24 The God who made the world and all things in it, since He is Lord of heaven and earth, does not dwell in temples made with hands; 25 nor is He served by human hands, as though He needed anything, since He Himself gives to all people life and breath and all things; 26 and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27 that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28 for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, 'For we also are His children.' 29 Being then the children of God, we ought not to think that the Divine Nature is like gold or silver or stone, an image formed by the art and thought of man. 30 Therefore having overlooked the times of ignorance, God is now declaring to men that all people everywhere should metanoia, 31 because He has fixed a day in which He will judge the world in righteousness through a Man whom He has appointed, having furnished proof to all men by raising Him from the dead."
I can't remember where I heard this:
"When you get to heaven, you'll open your eyes, breathe a sigh of relief and say, "ahh, I made it."
Then you'll look around and get agitated saying, "HEY! What is he/she doing here? They don't belong."
14 For the love of Christ controls us, because we have concluded this: that one has died for all, therefore all have died the significance of that statement CANNOT be overlooked!!!; 15 and he died for all as in adam all die so in Christ all we be made alive, that those who live might no longer live for themselves but for him who for their sake died and was raised.
16 From now on, therefore, we regard no one NO ONE, including believers and unbelievers according to the flesh. Even though we once regarded Christ according to the flesh, we regard him thus no longer. 17 Therefore, if anyone is in Christ, (why is this "anyone" suddenly thought to be believers only? Paul has been saying NO ONE, ALL, why suddenly does "anyone" just mean believers??? If ALL have died, and we recognize NO ONE according to the flesh, well then what should we recognize them as?????? he is a new creation. The old has passed away; behold, the new has come. 18 All this is from God, who through Christ reconciled us to himself and gave us the ministry of reconciliation; 19 what is the ministry of reconciliation Paul?that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them <--- this is what God did, and entrusting to us the message of reconciliation. 20 Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God. 21 this is a continuing sentence explaining what God did ---->For our sake he made him to be sin who knew no sin, so that in him we might become the righteousness of God.
Three things need to be addressed here:
What does the word "might" mean?
What does the word "reconciled" mean?
Why doesn't Paul say "you must be born again"?
I dunno man, the stuff I'm writing in red is scaring the crap out of me! If they won't kill us for saying there is no Hell... they will certainly try to kill us for saying this. I am like Neo puking. Can this really be?
Please be kind, I am just thinking this through out loud.
that is, in Christ God was reconciling the world to himself, not counting their trespasses against them PEACE!!!! GOD HAS DECLARED PEACE WITH MEN!!!!!! PEACE!!!!!!!!
Jeremias, I see it like this;
I don't believe all are saved now. Paul said "not all are of the faith", and there are many more scriptures about that. All haven't yet been given the faith to believe unto salvation, all haven't as yet been spiritually re-born from above. However, I think there are kind of 2 "sides to it".
First "side", God sees the end from the beginning, and He established things in the heavens even from the foundation. From the foundation, the Lamb was slain. It was God's Plan. For all. Since God is outside of time, at the "end of His view", it has been accomplished.
Secondly however, He has ordained that it be walked out within time, in our earthly element, for a purpose [you know, those things we spend so much time trying to figure out :)]. So what He has declared in eternity, has "not yet been fully completed/received for us in our current experience of evil". Currently there are still friends of God and enemies of God. God has reconciled Himself to all through the cross, but He hasn't as yet given the all faith to believe so the all will as yet reconcile themelves to God (although God does all the initiating and accomplishing - in His timing). So IMO, the bottom line is this; what God has declared, is, in His timeless view. But we're in time, and for us, things happen in an order ("each in his own order" or turn).
So, there is an elect, those called and chosen to be the ekklesia (called out ones) set aside during this period for a purpose and by God's intent, given the faith to believe in this lifetime [Sons, Saints]. Then the rest, all the rest of humankind, will be brought to Him kneeling and confessing [believing, when they're given the faith to do so] that He is Lord - each in his own turn (taught by Paul).
One line; the ekklesia/elect are predestined, all the rest are destined - as God will be All in All. :2c:
I honestly don't have a clear view of why God chose to do it this way. But IMO, it's God's Plan of the Ages - the few now, all the rest later. :2c:
Jeremias, so, as I really believe the scriptures unfold what I wrote above (or at least most of it :mblush:), I guess more conversation might be "so how does the finished work of the cross fit in there"? There are probably books to be written about that, but a little I'd suggest is, outside of time it is completed. And for believers reconciled to God through faith in Christ and His work on that cross, legally it's finished, i.e., spiritually reborn - a child born into the family (although there's still the work re: the soul, shaping of the will, going on into maturity, growing in grace and knowledge, etc.). Still, even though in time we're still walking that part out, there's a higher plane and reality within which we can dwell). I believe Paul knew his spirit was at rest and totally in God's hands, having been reborn on that road to Damascus, even though he still struggled with the flesh and needed to look to and trust God for His daily strength and grace as he matured and "ran the race, finishing the course".
Anyway, you'll probably have some good thoughts on the finished work of the cross here...It is finished, but what exactly is finished since we're still clay on terra firma, and as believers, how can we experience that finished work in faith, grace, hope, and joy....... Blessings.
Quote from: eaglesway on October 22, 2012, 10:27:22 PM
Quote from: CHB on October 21, 2012, 09:45:12 PM
What about where it says "where there is no law there is no sin" Or without law there is no sin" or something to that effect. Can't think of where to find it right now. Anyway, it sounds as if breaking law is the sin.
CHB
IMO, The law is "a tutor to lead us to Christ". It makes sin "all the more sinful". It shows forth the fruits of the "sin of the world" (unbelief) by provoking the sinful(unbelieving) nature to life, manifesting "sins" that grow out of "an evil heart of unbelief".
Thanks Eaglesway. What are your thoughts on
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY, Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
and, I thought about Jesus' words on the cross "Father forgive them they know not what they do."
Paul says many things that moderate our absolute reckonings :o)
But if our gospel be hid, it is hid to them that are lost: In whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of them which believe not, lest the light of the glorious gospel of Christ, who is the image of God, should shine unto them.
(2Co 4:3-4)
Christ shined on Paul, but not until after He knocked Saul off his high horse :o) I think Saul was a zealous and ambitious young Pharisee on his way up the ladder, blind in spirit, veiled by the god of this age.
I'm with you on this Jeremias :thumbsup: if the firstfruits are holy so too the remainder....He is not
a respector of persons. by His will He called out a remnant to testify and wittness....those that
were blind to it while here on earth..have their eyes and ears opened when their spirit returns unto God
the prostitute on the street,addicted to drugs..has a wonderful free gift laidup for her. so too,the drunk
the insane, the offscouring and rubble of the people.
Jesus said 'Look..the harlots and taxpayers[despised] enter into the Kingdom ahead of you He has
many many faithful angels in heaven that are quite capable of teaching them[for the children of the
resurrection are like the angels,the sons of God]. they minister up there as flames of fire..to those
who inherit eternal life.
To be reconciled you need two.
God has reconciled himself to man
Man had tried to get reconciled to God'
Man can believe that there is no God,
for man to reconcile with a God that doesn't
exist to that Man it would be absurd.
This man was born with the stain of Adams sin.
He needed to be reconciled to God and was thru Christ.
Now reconciled. He can ENTER in to a reconciled relationship
with God.
If he doesn't believe in God he logically can't enter into
the relationship that God saved for him.
God saved that relationship for him and God.
God knows he has no reluctance to Loving that man.
That man doesn't and can't believe to enter.
unless.
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"[g]
The only thing is, we are not here just speaking of the ignorant, the debilitated, the offscourings. We are also speaking of the adversaries, the knowingly wicked, etc. Who is teaching the angels who are bound in chains(jude 6), in what age will their hostility be turned into adoration? By what means? The anti-Christ and the false prophet- are they just symbols- or historical figures?
Regardless of whether or not one holds to Revelation as 100 percent symbol, type and allegory- there are plenty of witnesses in the scriptures, even the testimony of our Lord, that there will be an unpleasant alternative to aionian zoe for those who reject the son of God.
It would be better that a millstone be wrapped arund your neck and you be thrown into the sea, than to stumble one of these little ones.
believers enter aionian life, those who reject the testimony of the son of God go into aionian pur/fire and aionian kolassis/correction.
Among the things we are delivered from when we are "saved", is the fear of death and the fear of judgment. IMO, The testimonies are too many to be ignored. There is great reward in serving Jesus in this age and the next, and great loss in this age and the next for standing against Him.
For if we go on sinning willfully after receiving the knowledge of the truth, there no longer remains a sacrifice for sins, but a terrifying expectation of judgment and THE FURY OF A FIRE WHICH WILL CONSUME THE ADVERSARIES. Anyone who has set aside the Law of Moses dies without mercy on the testimony of two or three witnesses. How much severer punishment do you think he will deserve who has trampled under foot the Son of God, and has regarded as unclean the blood of the covenant by which he was sanctified, and has insulted the Spirit of grace? For we know Him who said, "VENGEANCE IS MINE, I WILL REPAY." And again, "THE LORD WILL JUDGE HIS PEOPLE." It is a terrifying thing to fall into the hands of the living God.
(Heb 10:26-31)
"Then they themselves also will answer, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry, or thirsty, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not take care of You?' "Then He will answer them, 'Truly I say to you, to the extent that you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' "These will go away into eternal punishment(aionian kolassis), but the righteous into eternal life."(aionian zoe)
(Mat 25:44-46)
To me, this is olam ha ze and olam ha ba. Olam is the word the greeks transliterated into "aion" from the Hebrew/Aramaic. Olam being not "age during" but "beyond the veil" or "the other world".
Those who go into the life/zoe of "the world to come" or punishment/kolassis in"the world to come"
Those who go into kolassis to find many or perhaps hopefully few stripes awaiting them in the form of "exposure of the secrets of their hearts" before the "one who sits on the throne" when the "tribunal is convened"- and of this record is already kept in the conscience of every person, to be read in the presence of the Lord and the assembly of the holy ones. The one who dwells in unapproachable light will shine in such a way that every heart will be revealed and every adversary consumed, and for some, as I read the Lord, it will be a very unpleasant experience initially- altho we kno that all tribulation is for the moment unpleasant, but in the end, "yields the peaceable fruit of righteousness".
The benefit of coming under the blood of Jesus is a new and living way "into the holy of holies" and the intercessions of our high priest and sin reckoned with as long as we continue in the faith and abide in the vine. That blood has already paid for the sins of all.
(IMO)It has not already been applied to every doorpost, the death angel has not yet passed over all, because it is applied when we bow the knee and confess the Lordship of Jesus. Otherwise there would be no imperative to "warn the evil man of his way". We know that as in Adam all died, so also in Christ will all be made alive, but each in his own order- first Christ, then the first-fruits, then those who are alive at His coming, then comes the end-after the last adversary, death, is nullified that God may be "all in all". As long as there is death there will be adversaries. As long as there are adversaries there will be kolassis- until every knee has bowed and until the anakephalaiomai(summing up Eph 1:10) and the apocatastasis(times of restoration of all things (Acts 3:21).
So, since God knows the secrets of the hearts, there will be many "offscourings" who will rejoice to see His face and throw off their chains. Ther will be many who say "Lord, Lord, didnt we teach in your name and prophesy and do many mighty works?" and He will say depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
Why into that PARTICULAR FIRE? Because it is the one reserved for those who knew but did not do, and those who did for their own glory- like the devil and his angels. A more intense purging is needed for those who have seen the light of Christ but refused His heart of compassion.
This is all just my opinion of course, we see through a glass darkly.
Quote from: goodreport on October 23, 2012, 02:44:14 AM
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY, Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
All/large part of that knowledge had main goal; pointing to Jesus.
I compare it to studying for a proffesion. Many are quite good at school. They know lots of things. But that's no guarantee they will do well at the actual job. Some know all the theory but are unable to connect the dots in real life.
I think the Scriptural knowledge of the priests was often just as good as the knowledge Jesus had.
The main (huge) difference was the interpretation and application to various real life situations.
I think it can even be compared to "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).
Jesus had the red interpretation. All(most all) others the blue interpretation. Both (Jesus, others) were very well aware of Sabbath regulations; their interpretation sometimes was the opposite.
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2012, 01:02:53 AM
Jeremias, I see it like this;
I don't believe all are saved now. Paul said "not all are of the faith", and there are many more scriptures about that. All haven't yet been given the faith to believe unto salvation, all haven't as yet been spiritually re-born from above. However, I think there are kind of 2 "sides to it".
First "side", God sees the end from the beginning, and He established things in the heavens even from the foundation. From the foundation, the Lamb was slain. It was God's Plan. For all. Since God is outside of time, at the "end of His view", it has been accomplished.
Secondly however, He has ordained that it be walked out within time, in our earthly element, for a purpose [you know, those things we spend so much time trying to figure out :)]. So what He has declared in eternity, has "not yet been fully completed/received for us in our current experience of evil". Currently there are still friends of God and enemies of God. God has reconciled Himself to all through the cross, but He hasn't as yet given the all faith to believe so the all will as yet reconcile themelves to God (although God does all the initiating and accomplishing - in His timing). So IMO, the bottom line is this; what God has declared, is, in His timeless view. But we're in time, and for us, things happen in an order ("each in his own order" or turn).
So, there is an elect, those called and chosen to be the ekklesia (called out ones) set aside during this period for a purpose and by God's intent, given the faith to believe in this lifetime [Sons, Saints]. Then the rest, all the rest of humankind, will be brought to Him kneeling and confessing [believing, when they're given the faith to do so] that He is Lord - each in his own turn (taught by Paul).
One line; the ekklesia/elect are predestined, all the rest are destined - as God will be All in All. :2c:
I honestly don't have a clear view of why God chose to do it this way. But IMO, it's God's Plan of the Ages - the few now, all the rest later. :2c:
I think that's because things conflict if looked at it from a different angle.
a] Not everybody is saved right now because God's plan of the ages is still in progress.
b] Everybody is saved because God planned salvation for all and nothing is able to stop or even slightly delay that plan.
Maybe the best way to phrase is: "We have a 100% guarantee of being saved. Each in his own order."
Quote from: jabcat on October 23, 2012, 01:38:58 AM
Anyway, you'll probably have some good thoughts on the finished work of the cross here...It is finished, but what exactly is finished since we're still clay on terra firma, and as believers, how can we experience that finished work in faith, grace, hope, and joy....... Blessings.
Confusion due to a bad translation. It's finished ===> Paid in full.
The debts of sin, past, present and future, were paid nearly 2000 years ago.
The payment is finished. Not God's plan of salvation. That plan ends at "Father is all-in-all".
:2c:
Good comments Tony. :thumbsup:
BTW when I write plan I don't really mean plan. I just don't know a better word.
Plan sounds like a possibility instead of an absolute.
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2012, 09:17:18 AM
Quote from: goodreport on October 23, 2012, 02:44:14 AM
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY, Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
All/large part of that knowledge had main goal; pointing to Jesus.
I compare it to studying for a proffesion. Many are quite good at school. They know lots of things. But that's no guarantee they will do well at the actual job. Some know all the theory but are unable to connect the dots in real life.
I think the Scriptural knowledge of the priests was often just as good as the knowledge Jesus had.
The main (huge) difference was the interpretation and application to various real life situations.
I think it can even be compared to "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).
Jesus had the red interpretation. All(most all) others the blue interpretation. Both (Jesus, others) were very well aware of Sabbath regulations; their interpretation sometimes was the opposite.
Thanks WW
With man, a plan is just a possibility.
With God, it is an absolute.
"Man makes his plans, and God laughs."
Quote from: goodreport on October 23, 2012, 03:38:17 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 23, 2012, 09:17:18 AM
Quote from: goodreport on October 23, 2012, 02:44:14 AM
1 Timothy 1:13 KJV
Who was before a blasphemer, and a persecutor, and injurious; but I obtained mercy, because I did it ignorantly in unbelief.
My first reaction to "ignorantly" was "OH MY, Paul the highly trained Pharisee ignorant???
All/large part of that knowledge had main goal; pointing to Jesus.
I compare it to studying for a proffesion. Many are quite good at school. They know lots of things. But that's no guarantee they will do well at the actual job. Some know all the theory but are unable to connect the dots in real life.
I think the Scriptural knowledge of the priests was often just as good as the knowledge Jesus had.
The main (huge) difference was the interpretation and application to various real life situations.
I think it can even be compared to "The Sabbath was made for man, not man for the Sabbath" (Mark 2:27).
Jesus had the red interpretation. All(most all) others the blue interpretation. Both (Jesus, others) were very well aware of Sabbath regulations; their interpretation sometimes was the opposite.
Thanks WW... some more food for thought... opposite interpretations/applications to various real life situations... I wonder why?
Why????? I can only guess.
I think they wanted to serve God the best way they could. Gradually more and more laws got added. Interpretation got more and more strickt. Just to rule out every possibilty of breaking His command. But that simply got out of hand.
I compare it to the police force. Police is to serve and protect. Double the police force and it gets even better. But at a certain point in gets to much. It turns into a police state.
So my guess is they kept "improving" until the opposite of the original goal was reached.
right...just as the Gospel of the salvation of all mankind has been turned into eternal torment for the most
in the churches. it is due to the 'sin' in the flesh..that is what taints it.
If a preist have holy consecrated meat and it touch something unclean..does it make the unclean thing
holy? no..but it defiles the Holy. the letter of the law...that kills destroys......
then you have Jesus..that Holy thing..and a woman that touched His garment..and became clean...
and there you have the Spirit of which there is no law against.
the law was written for the lawless[those without love to constrain their loveless acts]..not the righteous/spirit
or Love..love has no such constraints..nor can it be regulated by law..for it fulfills and exceeds it through
the essence that it is.
when you findyourself judging law against the righteous..you find yourself condemning an innocent man
LOVE CONSTRAINS LAWLESSNESS.........BUT LAW CAN NOT CONSTRAIN LOVE[mercy]
LOVE/grace IS AS STRONG AS DEATH[ministry of=LAW COVENANT]
Quote from: sheila on October 23, 2012, 07:03:21 PM
If a preist have holy consecrated meat and it touch something unclean..does it make the unclean thing
holy? no..but it defiles the Holy. the letter of the law...that kills destroys......
(Rom 11:16) And if the first fruit is holy, the branch is also. And if the root is holy, the branches are also.
Offscourings; are the scum or dregs of that, which has been purified.
So, since God knows the secrets of the hearts, there will be many "offscourings" who will rejoice to see His face and throw off their chains. Their will be many who say "Lord, Lord, didnt we teach in your name and prophesy and do many mighty works?" and He will say depart from me you lawless ones into the fire prepared for the devil and his angels".
IMO people who are loud and out spoken about there hate for Jesus and his followers.
These are the people who only see the scum and dregs of that which has been purified.
When they see him who has been truly purified and see his face they will rejoice.
They will rejoice!
May God richly bless us to be his face to these people TODAY.
I pray
Quote from: sheila on October 23, 2012, 07:03:21 PM
right...just as the Gospel of the salvation of all mankind has been turned into eternal torment for the most
in the churches. it is due to the 'sin' in the flesh..that is what taints it.
If a preist have holy consecrated meat and it touch something unclean..does it make the unclean thing
holy? no..but it defiles the Holy. the letter of the law...that kills destroys......
then you have Jesus..that Holy thing..and a woman that touched His garment..and became clean...
and there you have the Spirit of which there is no law against.
the law was written for the lawless[those without love to constrain their loveless acts]..not the righteous/spirit
or Love..love has no such constraints..nor can it be regulated by law..for it fulfills and exceeds it through
the essence that it is.
when you findyourself judging law against the righteous..you find yourself condemning an innocent man
LOVE CONSTRAINS LAWLESSNESS.........BUT LAW CAN NOT CONSTRAIN LOVE[mercy]
LOVE/grace IS AS STRONG AS DEATH[ministry of=LAW COVENANT]
Amen!
and so too,even all the fruit..which He demands[they are the fruit of the hands of God and Christ..even
the salvation of All men] and this is ALL THE FRUIT...WHEN I TAKE AWAY ALL THEIR SIN.........
walk live by faith and hope in what is yet unseen/but very much a reality in the spirit
:dsunny:
(Wow WW, love love love the new avatar!!)
Very good points being made here by all.
In my personal life, I feel like I am having a season like none I've ever experienced before. God, who is MY FATHER, is helping me see His non-human, "other", Amazing Love for me, and for people. I have seen signs and a couple wonders. I don't know why this is happening. But I feel like I am being stretched beyond my limits with regard to Love. Like He is showing me His love for me, and showing me how He loves others too. All these words like, amazing, astonishing, wonderful, mind-blowing... they just don't explain it.
I think a big problem in this whole discussion is how we define "saved" (and similar terms). We are bringing all kinds of biases and definitions to it. Then we are trying to understand scripture (the NT) that 2/3 of which was written in a language which no-longer exists anymore and is easily mis-interpreted and mis-translated. I'm not saying we should toss it away. Not at all!! But we're trying to use the scriptures and match it up with our biases and definitions. Toss in a good bit of old fashion human fear and what do we have? How about 41,000 Christian denominations!!!!! Toss in some more good ol fashion human survival instinct and we have crusades, religious wars and untold innocents caught in the crossfire. Ugh.
All of this is motivated by a HUMAN-NEED to determine... who's in and who's out. The good and the bad. The Christians and the non-Christians. This kind of thinking is destructive!! (I am preaching to myself as much as anyone else hahaha :doh:)
Who is "saved"?
I was saved 2,000 years ago by Jesus the Messiah. His life, His death, Him Resurrected. I believed it when I heard of God's love for me as demonstrated through His Son Jesus. God did something for me that I COULD NEVER DO FOR MYSELF.
Isn't the message of the Gospel really this: God has saved the world!! Believe it!!
Example:
My wife cooks my favorite dish and plans a beautiful romantic dinner because she loves me. But if I'm convinced that she is doing all that stuff because she is secretly planning to murder me after I fall asleep at the end of the night, will I want to eat the meal, relax with her, enjoy her company and intimacy??
Is Christianity at large representing a God who is Love or a God who people should be afraid of? Are we willing to look at ourselves and our biases truthfully? Are we willing to lay down the mantle of determining who's in and who's out and what each group looks like or is "supposed" to look like and just Love people the way God Love's people? Think about that. God Loves people in a way the "in" crowd of the 1st century NEVER DARED DREAMED HE WOULD!!!
We need to be messengers of Peace!! Love!! Reconciliation!! "Dear friend, God has made peace with you even while you may hate Him. You need do nothing. He has made Peace. He has done it all. He loves you so much. Accept the fact that He Loves you. If you do not believe me, ask Him. He will show you."
:iagree: I believe .Preach it bother.
Quote from: Jeremias on October 23, 2012, 11:56:45 PM
Very good points being made here by all.
In my personal life, I feel like I am having a season like none I've ever experienced before. God, who is MY FATHER, is helping me see His non-human, "other", Amazing Love for me, and for people. I have seen signs and a couple wonders. I don't know why this is happening. But I feel like I am being stretched beyond my limits with regard to Love. Like He is showing me His love for me, and showing me how He loves others too. All these words like, amazing, astonishing, wonderful, mind-blowing... they just don't explain it.
I think a big problem in this whole discussion is how we define "saved" (and similar terms). We are bringing all kinds of biases and definitions to it. Then we are trying to understand scripture (the NT) that 2/3 of which was written in a language which no-longer exists anymore and is easily mis-interpreted and mis-translated. I'm not saying we should toss it away. Not at all!! But we're trying to use the scriptures and match it up with our biases and definitions. Toss in a good bit of old fashion human fear and what do we have? How about 41,000 Christian denominations!!!!! Toss in some more good ol fashion human survival instinct and we have crusades, religious wars and untold innocents caught in the crossfire. Ugh.
All of this is motivated by a HUMAN-NEED to determine... who's in and who's out. The good and the bad. The Christians and the non-Christians. This kind of thinking is destructive!! (I am preaching to myself as much as anyone else hahaha :doh:)
Who is "saved"?
I was saved 2,000 years ago by Jesus the Messiah. His life, His death, Him Resurrected. I believed it when I heard of God's love for me as demonstrated through His Son Jesus. God did something for me that I COULD NEVER DO FOR MYSELF.
Isn't the message of the Gospel really this: God has saved the world!! Believe it!!
Example:
My wife cooks my favorite dish and plans a beautiful romantic dinner because she loves me. But if I'm convinced that she is doing all that stuff because she is secretly planning to murder me after I fall asleep at the end of the night, will I want to eat the meal, relax with her, enjoy her company and intimacy??
Is Christianity at large representing a God who is Love or a God who people should be afraid of? Are we willing to look at ourselves and our biases truthfully? Are we willing to lay down the mantle of determining who's in and who's out and what each group looks like or is "supposed" to look like and just Love people the way God Love's people? Think about that. God Loves people in a way the "in" crowd of the 1st century NEVER DARED DREAMED HE WOULD!!!
We need to be messengers of Peace!! Love!! Reconciliation!! "Dear friend, God has made peace with you even while you may hate Him. You need do nothing. He has made Peace. He has done it all. He loves you so much. Accept the fact that He Loves you. If you do not believe me, ask Him. He will show you."
Tabernacles! It's amazing isn't it?? Has He put His intense love for someone in you, is that what you are experiencing? He did that to me (and my friend, He's done it to her quite a few times though, she's more "seasoned" lol) and it's amazing!! (This is one of the reasons I have been so frustrated with all of what is going on in my life with the fear of rejection, etc, because He has already shown me so much, I feel like I should be beyond all of this. I've just been going through a rough patch, lots going on right now with friends and family, lots of abandonment issues and things. It annoys me that it's affecting my spiritual life this way though. Anyhow, blah blah blah lol.)
He just keeps giving and giving and giving though, through all of it. He's awesome. :HeartThrob:
God is love. We are His ambassadors.
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20
It's not of ourselves, it's the gift of God. He gives us faith to believe on Him as Savior. Each in his own order. Without that gift and His gift on the cross, we cannot do this;
.. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Rm. 10:9
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Rm. 10:14
Quote from: jabcat on October 24, 2012, 03:28:46 AM
God is love. We are His ambassadors.
We are therefore Christ's ambassadors, as though God were making his appeal through us. We implore you on Christ's behalf: Be reconciled to God. 2 Cor. 5:20
It's not of ourselves, it's the gift of God. He gives us faith to believe on Him as Savior. Each in his own order. Without that gift and His gift on the cross, we cannot do this;
.. if you confess with your mouth Jesus as Lord, and believe in your heart that God raised Him from the dead, you will be saved; Rm. 10:9
How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? Rm. 10:14
Blessings to you dear brother -- timely reminders for me as I ask the Lord to show me what to do with all that He has given me: faith to believe on Him as Savior and having been given much... I pray for all of us to be attentive to what He would have each of us do.
:HeartThrob: Amen
The message of the gospel is, "God has saved the world, believe it." However, if we define the salvation of the world as 'the restoration of all things(apocatastasis) spoken of by all the prophets and sages from the foundation of the world"(ac3:21), we realize that, as Paul said, the mystery of His will is an administration of ages accomplishing, in the completion of times, the summing up of all things(anakepalaomai) in Jesus Christ(ep1:10), including the adversaries, until God be all in all.(1co 15:23-28)
The tyranny of language confuses our efforts to communicate this beautiful truth as semantical arguments detract from our oneness.
The apocatastasis has been accomplished from the foundation of the world in the mind of God, yet Jesus said, "It is finished!" from the cross, IN TIME.
As Peter said , "He was foreordained from the foundation of the world but was manifest in these last times for you".
So also, full and final restoration awaits the completion of seasons appointed by the Father. For this reason we all groan, and the entire creations groans awaiting the revelation of the sons of God, AFTER WHICH the entire creation will be set free into the glorious liberty of the sons of God.(Rom 8:17-25)
There are those who have TASTED this salvation, this deliverance, this healing and those who have not. These are still dwelling in the valley of the shadow of death. Their minds are still veiled by the god of this age and altho their salvation will MANIFEST AT THE APPOINTED TIME- our Lord exhorts us to warn them to flee the wrath to come and embrace this freely given deliverance that has been offered to all. This exhortation is UNDENIABLE without denying the veracity of the scriptures themselves- which some do and that is their right, and I do not judge them but I heartily disagree with them.
These then who have received this grace, ARE PASSED FROM DEATH INtO LIFE. If some want to call that "saved"- they are only speaking as the apostles and our Lord spoke. Every creature "will be saved". We are still "being saved", on many levels, by our sanctification in the spirit of grace.
Unfortunately, the word "saved" has come to mean, "not have to burn forever" rather than "restored to aionian zoe"- but I would rather redefine the word for people than disagree with the scriptures.
In My Opinion it is important that we don't strangle each other with semantics. Since some of these terms have been so abused I understand the reactions over their use, but I think it is a bad idea to disregard the terminology of the scriptures lest we LOSE OUR ABILITY to interact with sincere seeking Christians who are coming here seeking answers.
So I a rejoice that all men "will be saved". I rejoice "I am being saved". I rejoice that I "was saved", and that the manifestation of that salvation, planned from the foundation of the world, manifested in the world through the death, burial and resurrection of Jesus Christ.I rejoice that it was initiated in my life by the grace of God when I believed and that it is progressive in me and in the whole cosmos. It will culminate, for me, at the appearing in glory of the Lord Jesus, in my resurrection, even tho it was "finished" at the cross- and even tho the Lamb was slain from the foundation of the world.
I rejoice that God has called me to participate in the salvation of all, to offer hope to the downtrodden, to warn the wicked in love and humility, knowing that they are all appointed to salvation in His time.
I not sure semantics are always wrong.
I think people on this forum have roughly the same belief.
If we want to iron out the details I think semantics are needed.
There come a point we can no longer say "it means about this, let's discuss".
As a side note: I wonder more and more if Greek is suitable for discussions that rely heavily on semantics....
(I have thoughts about Greek that might not fall within the forum guidelines.....)
You hit on a lot of points I'd been thinking about John. :thumbsup:
Fully accomplished outside of time, still being walked out within time.
The Lamb was slain from the foundation "outside time", 2000 years ago within time.
Salvation accomplished from the foundation outside time, only when the Holy Spirit draws each one and God provides faith to believe unto salvation within time.
When God visited me, it wasn't to tell me I was saved. It was to tell me I needed the Savior. He then gave me faith to believe in Him already slain and risen, and the strength to call on Him at that time He had so graciously appointed for me (nothing of myself).
It's a mystery. Thank God for His mercy.
Amen!
We are constantly being pushed for time by this age. This seems to cause much confusion and stress under the push to finish things ahead of schedule or on time.
I recall a few of the disasters that have undergone closer examination that have revealed a few "time saving" risks that have caused serious damage.
This time consuming life seems to distract from the eternal coming age.
How does this sound;
Col 1;26 " The sacred secret which HAD BEEN HIDDEN away from the ages and from the generations,
BUT NOW has been made manifest to His saints, to whom God has been pleased to make known what is the glorious wealth of this sacred secret among the nations,
which is Christ IN YOU,
THE HOPE OF GLORY."
Quote from: jabcat on October 24, 2012, 08:55:25 AMThe Lamb was slain from the foundation "outside time", 2000 years ago within time.
The foundation of the world was far more than 2000 years ago. That's my usual view.
Just thought of another interpretation.
Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world.
What if "from" isn't about time but location?
Meaning Jesus was killed at the same spot Adam was created?
Bit problematic because clearly the universe was created before Adam so technically Adam can't be teh foundation of the world. Unless world can also mean mankind.
:dontknow: :dontknow:
How about the lamb was slain before their were humans. Spiritually, for an omnipotent God foresaw mankinds need for a saviour and that Jesus would successfully be the saviour of the world. His substitutionary, voluntary death fulfilled the righteous demands of the Father. It was "finished" physically at the cross. "God speaks of future things as though they had already come to pass" because nothing and no one can thwart God's will which is "for ALL men to be saved"
Quote from: wwThe foundation of the world was far more than 2000 years ago. That's my usual view
The 'foundation' [casting down] of the world was 6000 years ago. Foundation/katabole means to cast or throw down, which is what happened when Adam was thrown out of the garden.
The lamb was slain at this time--from/at the foundation of the world--the casting down of the kosmos.
the lamb slain from
"the foundation"G2602
καταβολή
katabolēkat-ab-ol-ay'
From G2598; a deposition, that is, founding; figuratively conception: - conceive, foundation.
The NAS New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 2598
Original Word Word Origin
kataballo from (2596) and (906)
Transliterated Word TDNT Entry
Kataballo None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
kat-ab-al'-lo Verb
Definition
to cast down
to throw to the ground, prostate
to put in a lower place
to lay (down) a foundation
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 04:34:29 PM
Quote from: wwThe foundation of the world was far more than 2000 years ago. That's my usual view
The 'foundation' [casting down] of the world was 6000 years ago.
Or 14 billion years. But that wasn't my point.
QuoteFoundation/katabole means to cast or throw down, which is what happened when Adam was thrown out of the garden.
You assume that means kicked out of Eden. It just as well can mean the moment God blew the breath of life into Adam. (pre-existance)
And that wasn't my point either.
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.
IMO Today is the day we were saved for.
Today we are reconciled to God and can enter into a joy filled intimate relationship.
He saved us for today.
Quote from: dajomaco on October 24, 2012, 06:52:42 PM
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.
IMO Today is the day we were saved for.
Today we are reconciled to God and can enter into a joy filled intimate relationship.
He saved us for today.
Amen!
"Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore
choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
--Deut 30
Quote from: Molly on October 24, 2012, 07:10:06 PM
Quote from: dajomaco on October 24, 2012, 06:52:42 PM
Today, if you hear his voice,
do not harden your hearts.
IMO Today is the day we were saved for.
Today we are reconciled to God and can enter into a joy filled intimate relationship.
He saved us for today.
Amen!
"Now listen! Today I am giving you a choice between life and death, between prosperity and disaster.
19 I call heaven and earth as witnesses today against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing; therefore choose life, that both you and your descendants may live;
--Deut 30
:friendstu::popout:
Quote from: WhiteWings on October 24, 2012, 04:20:52 PM
Quote from: jabcat on October 24, 2012, 08:55:25 AMThe Lamb was slain from the foundation "outside time", 2000 years ago within time.
The foundation of the world was far more than 2000 years ago. That's my usual view.
Just thought of another interpretation.
Rev 13:8 All inhabitants of the earth will worship the beast--all whose names have not been written in the book of life belonging to the Lamb that was slain from the creation of the world(kosmos).
This is a very creditable direction of thought IMO. Jesus said, "restore me to the glory I had with you before the world was"(jn 17:5).
If the location of Christ's eternal glory is outside the bubble of time, then the conception of the kosmos(world) began with the Lamb slain. Conceivably, the first thought of creation was, in God's mind, about loving fellowship between creatures. Therefore He conceives everything from the seed(logos) of the cross- a communication of ultimate sacrificial love at the center of all things.
God, after He spoke long ago to the fathers in the prophets in many portions and in many ways, in these last days has spoken to us in His Son, whom He appointed heir of all things, through whom also He made the world. And He is the radiance of His glory and the exact representation of His nature, and upholds all things by the word of His power. When He had made purification of sins, He sat down at the right hand of the Majesty on high, having become as much better than the angels, as He has inherited a more excellent name than they.
(Heb 1:1-4)
He is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of all creation. For by Him all things were created, both in the heavens and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or dominions or rulers or authorities--all things have been created through Him and for Him. He is before all things, and in Him all things hold together. He is also head of the body, the church; and He is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead, so that He Himself will come to have first place in everything. For it was the Father's good pleasure for all the fullness to dwell in Him, and through Him to reconcile all things to Himself, having made peace through the blood of His cross; through Him, I say, whether things on earth or things in heaven.
(Col 1:15-20)
Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,
(1Pe 1:20)
Since eternity transcends time, the throne of Christ exists in a location outside of time, where the cross, the throne, the creation, the restoration of the world all co-exist like the petals of a flower that has blossomed, from the bud of God's plan of the ages- a revelation of divine love in a creation bound to pass through time in futility and then emerge in a location outside of time where all is gloriously restored in Christ and God is all in all.
What if "from" isn't about time but location?
Meaning Jesus was killed at the same spot Adam was created?
Bit problematic because clearly the universe was created before Adam so technically Adam can't be teh foundation of the world. Unless world can also mean mankind.
:dontknow: :dontknow: