To be Deaf and Blind

[sheila]

it is the goodness and kindness of God that leads to repentance.  Many have not heard this.....

  they hear instead the constant clanging of..you are condemned/ your'e going to burn in hell

   He's going to torture you fore ver...constant accusing.........youneedto do this,and that...

  do we what we say....[Jesus said of such..do what they say but not as they do]



such things harden people's hearts to God............they turn a deaf ear to it....they look away

from God[Look unto me and be saved all ye ends of the earth]..


  Even the wicked love those who love them..so if you truly want the wicled corrupt image

to repent...this seed of love has to first be planted in the heart of the wicked....


the wicked have to be loved first.....before they can love back. we love because He loved us first..so

I tell all the wicked prodigals of the earth...God loves them..and even though the bear the

image of the corrupt one in Adam..so,too,have we all.  But that we shall all also be changed

and bear the incorrupt image also.. All of us..we have all things in common.....


   the Gospel says..for God so loved the world[of mankind] that He sent His only begotten son

   His goodness and kindness is what leads to repentance.....He is kind unto the wicked

   

[eaglesway]

I noticed recently, that a half an onion I left in the fridge began to root. The root came out from the center of the onion. I could see it clearly because it had been cut down the center.

When a shoot comes out of a whole onion it may look like it is coming out of the end(where and when you begin to see it), but it began in the center and thats how it is with the will and the wisdom of God.

When it is done, and has fully passed through all the layers, the layers will be consumed. Unlike an onion, where what comes forth from the onion is another onion :o), What comes forth from God will be different(sown a physical body raised a spiritual body). What will come forth from the ages(the layers) began in the center, Alpha/root (in the beginning was the Logos, the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world, all things were created through Him) and will conclude all within the glory of God, Omega/fruit, as we kno...God will be all in all(Rev 5:13). I kno that....

Every human has a destiny in God

Ro 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

2)but it is hidden in the layers of time, in their generation, and in the order predetermined for them by God....

(Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

3) within the layers of the ages as He has fore-ordained

1 Cor 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

God knows the end from the beginning and sees it all and foreknows every part played by every vessel, whether the vessel of wrath fitted for destruction or the vessel of mercy prepared for the purpose of demonstrating His glory and power(Romans 9).

We all know this from the long view, from the perspective of Gods will and work over all time.

It is comforting indeed to know it and rest in it. It is God's work, and it is God who is in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, yet....

He does hold men to account for their deeds and there is no doubt about that- and we are exhorted to pass the time of our sojourn in reverence and awe and also to discipline the flesh and sow to the spirit, to abide in the vine, to comfort the afflicted and also to warn the wicked from his way.

We do not know whom God has chosen. We are called to trust and obey and we can because we know God rules over all- but we are not given that depth of immediate knowledge. We are called, to walk by faith, in the moment we are in, without knowing who will hear and who will see.:o)

He that goes forth weeping and sowing seed, will return rejoicing, carrying his sheaves with him.

[Seth]

You sound as if you are denying the Spirit of TRUTH and LOVE. That sowing the FRUITS of SPIRIT and allowing Father to make grow on HIS TERMS is beneath you. That some how "telling" someone the truth is more important. Really? Is this how you came to the truth. Did some say something and you "got it" or was it Father who in HIs time lead you where you now. Father is the GIVER of LIGHT. Not you, me or any one else. All we are required to do is sow the seeds of Love and Spirit and TRUTH.

No we are required to be SENT to bring the Gospel to those who are in darkness that they may come out into the light. Whether they do or not is up to God. I never said that telling the truth is more important than the fruits of the spirit, I am saying that bearing the fruit of the Spirit is not a SUBSTITUTE for telling the truth.

How would you teach a DEAF and Blind person Seth, through the spoken or written Word, or with Love, Joy, Forbearance, Kindness, Patience, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. Which do you think would bring the greatest benefits? Words or the Fruit of the Spirit?

You led into the OP with this:

Jesus spoke much of the blind:   "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." - Jhn 12:40

This scripture is not about literal blindness or deafness but about UNDERSTANDING. The point I am bringing is that it does not matter if God is in control of understanding, we are told to share anyway, that they may call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

You accuse me of changing the Scriptures to suit my needs. No Sir, you seem to think I am but a foolish child and persist in treating me as such. Do you not understand what the Scriptures say?

2Cr 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2Cr 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Notice what he says "you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry.." How can you take that for proof of what you are saying? It's literally saying that because Paul's ministry of the Gospel, they called upon the name of the Lord....to be saved THROUGH the spirit and become a letter of Christ.

Paul is giving reference to this:

Romans 2
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts


He is talking about the fruit of the Spirit, but NOT to the exclusion of preaching. The Letter that kills is reference to the LAW on tablets and parchments, which cannot save from the carnal mind. That is why he says we are ministers of "A NEW COVENANT, not of the letter...."

The reason we know that is because Paul wrote it down. He wasn't saying that ink is a poor way to spread the Gospel. He was talking about how the Law is a poor way to be saved from the carnal mind.

The SPIRIT saves from the carnal mind which is received in confession of Christ. The Spirit changes the nature of man to be obedient to God and bear the fruit of the Spirit which is kindness and love. Paul was NOT saying that ALL words written in ink are killers. No, he was talking about the LAW.

As to the Spirit, how will they hear if there is nobody to tell?

[Seth]

Every human has a destiny in God

Ro 11:32 For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.

2)but it is hidden in the layers of time, in their generation, and in the order predetermined for them by God....

(Acts 17:26 And hath made of one blood all nations of men for to dwell on all the face of the earth, and hath determined the times before appointed, and the bounds of their habitation; That they should seek the Lord, if haply they might feel after him, and find him, though he be not far from every one of us:For in him we live, and move, and have our being; as certain also of your own poets have said, For we are also his offspring.

3) within the layers of the ages as He has fore-ordained

1 Cor 15:25 For He must reign until He has put all His enemies under His feet. The last enemy that will be abolished is death. For He has put all things in subjection under His feet. But when He says, "All things are put in subjection," it is evident that He is excepted who put all things in subjection to Him. When all things are subjected to Him, then the Son Himself also will be subjected to the One who subjected all things to Him, so that God may be all in all.

God knows the end from the beginning and sees it all and foreknows every part played by every vessel, whether the vessel of wrath fitted for destruction or the vessel of mercy prepared for the purpose of demonstrating His glory and power(Romans 9).

We all know this from the long view, from the perspective of Gods will and work over all time.

It is comforting indeed to know it and rest in it. It is God's work, and it is God who is in us to will and to do of His good pleasure, yet....

He does hold men to account for their deeds and there is no doubt about that- and we are exhorted to pass the time of our sojourn in reverence and awe and also to discipline the flesh and sow to the spirit, to abide in the vine, to comfort the afflicted and also to warn the wicked from his way.

We do not know whom God has chosen. We are called to trust and obey and we can because we know God rules over all- but we are not given that depth of immediate knowledge. We are called, to walk by faith, in the moment we are in, without knowing who will hear and who will see.:o)

He that goes forth weeping and sowing seed, will return rejoicing, carrying his sheaves with him.

I agree with 100% of what you said. And my point in this thread is that simply because God is in control, does not mean that we should not tell them. The idea being shared here is: "Isn't this what Love is all about? Jesus gave his life up for everyone and had Faith that it would be restored. It was and we all are saved. "

The Bible says not so. We are not saved until we "call upon the name of the Lord." The Bible says this. And what I am saying is that part of the fruit of the Spirit is to act in Love by telling people to call upon the name of the Lord to be saved. I don't see a Biblical doctrine which claims otherwise, which says that in a timeless state out there, everyone is already saved. I don't see anywhere in the Bible that says that everyone is already saved without calling upon the name of the Lord.

When I see your words: "We are called, to walk by faith, in the moment we are in, without knowing who will hear and who will see.:o) He that goes forth weeping and sowing seed, will return rejoicing, carrying his sheaves with him." Yes I agree, that's what I mean. Sowing seed doesn't mean simply being nice and kind. It means sharing the Gospel also and all the truths contained within.

[eaglesway]

I agree Seth.

In a time like this, where the gospel is so perverted generally, I do believe sometimes acts of kindness speak louder than words, but I also believe our ear should always be attuned to declaring the gospel.

Jesus is the answer for what people are suffering from, in any age. Grief, rage, lust, pain, loneliness- He is the answer for it all. Paul did not know anything more than that he was to declare this truth, revealing Jesus, as a servant of the ages long plan of God.

We could say, "Why should I heal- Jesus will eventually heal all" or "Why should I warn- Jesus will ultimately save all" or "Why should I work, God will do it all without my meager part", or "Why should I choose, or declare this choice, because God has already chosen all."

The very ones through whom God has demonstrated His wisdom from the beginning until now have all called for a choice, warned of the Day, declared the grace and love of God and called people to receive it, IN SPITE OR PERSECUTIONS RECEIVED FOR DOING SO.

Before we came to Messiah in faith:

Ephesians 2:11 Therefore remember that you, once Gentiles in the flesh--who are called Uncircumcision
by what is called the Circumcision made in the flesh by hands-- (12) that at that time you were without
Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel and strangers from the covenants of promise,
having no hope and without God in the world.

After we came to Messiah in faith:

Ephesians 2:19 Now, therefore, you are no longer strangers and foreigners, but fellow citizens with the
saints and members of the household of God.

When we declare the kingdom of God in Christ we establish a separation even as God established a separation when He said, "Let there be light!"

The separation allows people to see. It separates the waters from the waters so that creation can continue onward- "Behold I am making all things new".

It is not to condemn the chaos- altho some do this. It is not to make believers a prideful elite, altho some do this as well. It is simply to declare that which is coming and by that declaration to CALL IT FORTH (by faith we know the worlds were created by the word of God, this word of faith which we preach which is in your heart and in your mouth, that if you confess Jesus Christ as Lord and believe from your heart that God raised Him from the dead you will be healed/delivered/made whole/saved).

God has ordained that the works of the devil are to be destroyed by the gospel, and that the foolishness of declaring it is the heart of His redemptive work in this age.

Oh Well! I guess for all our insistence that God has predestined us we ought to accept that He has predestined us to trust Him in declaring the gospel,

That Jesus is the unique son of God, born of a virgin, slain by men, raised up by the Spirit of God as Lord over all and gathering everyone who ever was, is or will be into a union in Himself in order to present the entire Creation to His Father as reconciled by His blood, won by His demonstration of love(If I be lifted up) and restored to newness of life aionian by the Spirit.

The rest is up to Him :o)

[Seth]

 :iagree: :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

You sound as if you are denying the Spirit of TRUTH and LOVE. That sowing the FRUITS of SPIRIT and allowing Father to make grow on HIS TERMS is beneath you. That some how "telling" someone the truth is more important. Really? Is this how you came to the truth. Did some say something and you "got it" or was it Father who in HIs time lead you where you now. Father is the GIVER of LIGHT. Not you, me or any one else. All we are required to do is sow the seeds of Love and Spirit and TRUTH.

No we are required to be SENT to bring the Gospel to those who are in darkness that they may come out into the light. Whether they do or not is up to God. I never said that telling the truth is more important than the fruits of the spirit, I am saying that bearing the fruit of the Spirit is not a SUBSTITUTE for telling the truth.

How would you teach a DEAF and Blind person Seth, through the spoken or written Word, or with Love, Joy, Forbearance, Kindness, Patience, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. Which do you think would bring the greatest benefits? Words or the Fruit of the Spirit?

You led into the OP with this:

Jesus spoke much of the blind:   "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." - Jhn 12:40

This scripture is not about literal blindness or deafness but about UNDERSTANDING. The point I am bringing is that it does not matter if God is in control of understanding, we are told to share anyway, that they may call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

You accuse me of changing the Scriptures to suit my needs. No Sir, you seem to think I am but a foolish child and persist in treating me as such. Do you not understand what the Scriptures say?

2Cr 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2Cr 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Notice what he says "you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry.." How can you take that for proof of what you are saying? It's literally saying that because Paul's ministry of the Gospel, they called upon the name of the Lord....to be saved THROUGH the spirit and become a letter of Christ.

Paul is giving reference to this:

Romans 2
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law. 15They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts


He is talking about the fruit of the Spirit, but NOT to the exclusion of preaching. The Letter that kills is reference to the LAW on tablets and parchments, which cannot save from the carnal mind. That is why he says we are ministers of "A NEW COVENANT, not of the letter...."

The reason we know that is because Paul wrote it down. He wasn't saying that ink is a poor way to spread the Gospel. He was talking about how the Law is a poor way to be saved from the carnal mind.

The SPIRIT saves from the carnal mind which is received in confession of Christ. The Spirit changes the nature of man to be obedient to God and bear the fruit of the Spirit which is kindness and love. Paul was NOT saying that ALL words written in ink are killers. No, he was talking about the LAW.

As to the Spirit, how will they hear if there is nobody to tell?

Oh Seth, Paul ministered in any number of ways.
   
1Cr 9:22
To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Do you not see that it was "WHAT" Paul became that he thought of most beneficial. He said He became ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE.

I am not as you suggest ignoring Fathers HOLY WORD as you seem to think. Paul said it perfectly, it was who he became!! He must have demonstrated Kindness, Love, Patience, Gentleness, Understanding, etc; the very fruits of the Spirit to BEST Present the Holy Word through Spirit so that it MIGHT be Heard. We also know that to those who were yet babies in Spirit, he fed milk (not literal) and that he did not PROGRESS to more intense Spiritual Truths until they had grown in Spiritual Maturity. There is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL, like the church would have us believe. Paul walked in baby steps and was as he said, all things to all People. I wonder what he spoke about on his first encounter with a group of deaf and blind (spiritually) gentiles? He demonstrated the Fruits of the Spirit in all that he did.

I grew up in Holier-than-thou churches. There was no Spiritual Fruit anywhere. I was just a hopeless sinner and I REJECTED every word spoken. Thousands, perhaps Millions do daily because the Words lack Substance, they Lack Fruit of the Spirit. If Words were enough, then there would hardly be a single person not "saved." Why is this? Could it be that there is no Spiritual Fruit interlaced with the Words. Could it be that Words were not spoken with heartfelt Love, Kindness, Patience, Gentleness, Goodness, etc. I believe so, for it was such I was searching for, but I found it not. There words were Hollow. The talked the talk, but did not walk the walk.

Seth, did you deliberately mock me by saying:

Jesus spoke much of the blind:   "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." - Jhn 12:40

This scripture is not about literal blindness or deafness but about UNDERSTANDING. The point I am bringing is that it does not matter if God is in control of understanding, we are told to share anyway, that they may call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.

In your zeal to find fault you missed the premise as well as the point of the question. You mock me when I draw a parallel with a physically blind person and a Spiritually Blind person. Why? Would you not agree the method of delivery MUST by all needs, change. This is another problem the church has, it lumps children in with adults and condemns them (not all, but some churches) A lot and I mean MOST church goers are in search of something, being told that you are: Not Good and a SINNER from Birth, may be letter perfect, but if you think these words substantiate and give credence to the Fruits of the Spirit, then Seth, you are sadly mistaken   

What is your problem with ministering in and through Spirit, by being always LIVING proof of the Spiritual Truth living in us. I do not understand your dismissal of Spirit and your obsession with the Letter of the LAW. 

You quoted Paul in Romans

Romans 2
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.615They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts


Somehow you missed the most important part: Father had written (not hardened) the requirements of the Law on their hearts. Could this be why they were able to Obey it? Isn't this the best News ever,  :dsunny:   :dsunny:  :dsunny: even some who have never heard the Law or even seen it, KNOW IT because Father has written it on their hearts. They obeyed the Law that was written on their hearts.

Now getting back to the ET Churches, I wonder if the reason they are and Fathers Word is so utterly rejected, is because the word the Church speaks is not in union with the Law written on their hearts?

The Fruits of the Spirit speak volumes dear Seth, something sorely lacking in most churches today.

Love you bro, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Eagle, please do not think that I am disagreeing with anything you wrote, for I am not. I just wish to add clarity to the term GOSPEL.

Gospel is understood to mean "Good News"

Why is it that so much that I hear as "Good News" is anything but Good. Even the term "GoodNews" is tainted now, because the GoodNews touted as such is laced with conditions, threats and promises that are absolutely horrid. Who wants to hear that they or their loved ones are going to roast alive in a pit of fire forever. This unfortunately this is what is bought and sold all over the world, daily.

The GoodNews if that Fathers Kingdom is within each of His children and everyone of His children can have a personal relationship with Father. There is more good news; our sins are forgiven through Jesus sacrifice, the list of GoodNews is almost endless and when spoken and delivered with the fruits of the Spirit evident, then all the better. But even more so, how bright will the GoodNews Shine if the hearer can see through he mannerism of the teller, ALL of the things spoken about.

I do not like the term "selling" the Gospel, but to be effective ministers of the GoodNews, all that we are and how it is presented (Paul becoming all things to all people) that the GoodNews is not only heard but it is seen.

Just my thoughts, Thank you for sharing yours.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob: 

[Seth]

Oh Seth, Paul ministered in any number of ways.
   
1Cr 9:22
To the weak I became weak, to win the weak. I have become all things to all people so that by all possible means I might save some.

Do you not see that it was "WHAT" Paul became that he thought of most beneficial. He said He became ALL THINGS to ALL PEOPLE.

I am not as you suggest ignoring Fathers HOLY WORD as you seem to think. Paul said it perfectly, it was who he became!! He must have demonstrated Kindness, Love, Patience, Gentleness, Understanding, etc; the very fruits of the Spirit to BEST Present the Holy Word through Spirit so that it MIGHT be Heard. We also know that to those who were yet babies in Spirit, he fed milk (not literal) and that he did not PROGRESS to more intense Spiritual Truths until they had grown in Spiritual Maturity. There is NO ONE SIZE FITS ALL, like the church would have us believe. Paul walked in baby steps and was as he said, all things to all People. I wonder what he spoke about on his first encounter with a group of deaf and blind (spiritually) gentiles? He demonstrated the Fruits of the Spirit in all that he did.

What's with the "Oh Seth?"  :dontknow:

Oh Julie, let's take a few verses back from 1 Cor 1:22.

1 Cor 1:16
For though I preach the gospel, I have nothing to glory of: for necessity is laid upon me; yea, woe is unto me, if I preach not the gospel!

The question you asked in your original post was this: "Oh, but they will say that though Jesus paid off their debt of sin, they must accept it. They must turn their life over to Jesus. How?" That is what I have been telling you: through the foolishness of preaching. Paul indeed IS SAYING that they must turn their lives over to Jesus. This is why:

1 Cor 1:21
For after that in the wisdom of God the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching to save them that believe.

It's all from the same book of 1 Corinthians. I am not saying that Paul did not demonstrate kindness and all the other fruits of the Spirit, but he spread the Gospel through preaching because "woe is unto me if I preach not the Gospel, to save them that BELIEVE." His method did not change. He became all things to all people, in order to PREACH the Gospel and win some.

He always preached Christ, even to those who were spiritually blind and deaf, which is why he was persecuted.

Calling upon the name of the Lord is connected to hearing about the name of the Lord, and hearing is connected to preaching, and preaching is connected to "how beautiful the feet of them which bring the Good News."

Seth, did you deliberately mock me by saying:

Quote
Jesus spoke much of the blind:   "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." - Jhn 12:40

This scripture is not about literal blindness or deafness but about UNDERSTANDING. The point I am bringing is that it does not matter if God is in control of understanding, we are told to share anyway, that they may call upon the name of the Lord and be saved.


In your zeal to find fault you missed the premise as well as the point of the question. You mock me when I draw a parallel with a physically blind person and a Spiritually Blind person. Why? Would you not agree the method of delivery MUST by all needs, change.

No I did not intend to mock you. I intended to explain to you that because someone who is physically able to hear, but rejects the Gospel does not mean that the method changes. The method should always be the same: Fruit of the Spirit + Preaching. It does not mean that there is any other way to be saved but by calling upon the name of the Lord.

You can be very kind and generous and display the fruits of the Spirit, but that in itself does not good if not accompanied by the word of truth which is that NOT everyone is already saved, but that they must call upon the name of the Lord and believe.

What I have always been saying is that displaying the fruit of the Spirit is not a substitute for preaching the Gospel even if you are preaching to those who you think may not be able to hear it.

Romans 2
13For it is not those who hear the law who are righteous in God's sight, but it is those who obey the law who will be declared righteous. 14(Indeed, when Gentiles, who do not have the law, do by nature things required by the law, they are a law for themselves, even though they do not have the law.615They show that the requirements of the law are written on their hearts

Somehow you missed the most important part: Father had written (not hardened) the requirements of the Law on their hearts. Could this be why they were able to Obey it? Isn't this the best News ever,  even some who have never heard the Law or even seen it, KNOW IT because Father has written it on their hearts. They obeyed the Law that was written on their hearts.

Paul is talking about Gentile BELIEVERS (ie those who have had the word preached to them and believed and received the Holy Spirit) versus Judiazers who speak about the Law without obeying it. He is saying that those who have had a circumcision of the heart by the spirit can do things of the Law without needing to be under it....because the letter kills, but the SPIRIT brings life.

Look what he says in chapter 3:

Romans 3
22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

That is who he is talking about in Chapter 2.

[Seth]

Here is what gets me. You claim I had some kind of zeal to find fault. Take a look at my original response:

-----

Oh, but they will say that though Jesus paid off their debt of sin, they must accept it. They must turn their life over to Jesus.

How? Did we not just learn that Father gifts Faith and Spiritual Insight to those He wills and each of His children can only see and hear what we are given. If some are BLIND and Deaf to Jesus, how can these poor ignorant people be blamed? Can a wheat seed be blamed for not growing on a path or rocky ground. Like wise a wheat field choked by thorns cannot be the fault of the Seed.

Hi Julie, (sounds like a pretty nice greeting wouldn't you say?)
I agree with very much of what you say concerning the hardening of hearts and the sovereignty God has over who comes and who does not. I am not sure who the "they" are in the above quote, but from what I see in the scripture, everyone not only must turn their lives over to Jesus, they all will. Turning one's life over to Christ is the same as walking out of the darkness and into the light.

It's true that God chooses who will do this, but mankind has not been given such perfect knowledge. So, Paul encouraged us to run the race. Why encourage us to do that, if God is sovereign. Peter put it this way: "make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall not stumble."

Here are the things he wanted us to do:

2 Peter 1
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Whereas God knows who the elect are, man does not. This creates the necessity to add virtue to faith, and knowledge to virtue, and temperance to knowledge, and patience to temperance, and godliness to patience, and brotherly kindness to godliness and on and on, so that we may make our calling and election sure.

-------


Zeal to find fault? I agreed with much of what you said and made it known to you. However you asked a question. So I gave an answer and I stand by it. I don't believe I was in any way in zeal to find fault, simply explaining why I do believe that people must turn their lives over to Christ and HOW that fits in with God's sovereignty.

[JulieTang84]

Going back to the beginning of this thread: No one can come to the Father unless Jesus draws this person and no one can come to Jesus until Father draws them to Jesus. I believe we can both agree on this.

Perhaps I should have included the Scripture below right from the get go  :Chinscratch:

Not all are gifted to be ministers or even teachers.

1 Cor 12:4-12
There are different kinds of gifts, but the same Spirit distributes them.
There are different kinds of service, but the same Lord.
There are different kinds of working, but in all of them and in everyone it is the same God at work.

Now to each one the manifestation of the Spirit is given for the common good.

To one there is given through the Spirit a message of wisdom,
to another a message of knowledge by means of the same Spirit,
to another faith by the same Spirit,
to another gifts of healing by that one Spirit,
to another miraculous powers,
to another prophecy,
to another distinguishing between spirits,
to another speaking in different kinds of tongues,
and to still another the interpretation of tongues.

All these are the work of one and the same Spirit, and he distributes them to each one, just as he determines. Just as a body, though one, has many parts, but all its many parts form one body, so it is with Christ.


Perhaps we will now be able to return to why the Thread was started initially  :girlheart:

What each of these Spiritual Gifts, Service and Working have in common is that Father is working in each of them. Paul makes a point of mentioning the presence of the Spirit if for the Common Good for all. They each will produce Spiritual Fruits as naturally as an apple tree produces apples. We are all not the same nor do we each have the same role, but everything works together in the same Spirit.

Perhaps I do not have the gift of ministry that you have, but there is much that I can do. Father has blessed me in so many ways and it brings me no greater joy than sharing what I have learned; hopefully spreading the fruit of the Spirit always.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Seth, I am not perfect by any means, but if I mess up then I am not too proud to own it. I would be lying if I said I was not zealous in sharing all I had to share. Touché

You push me harder than I like but no harder than I need.  :HeartThrob:

Thank you for your willingness to share all you have been given to know.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Ok, let us get back to the beginning of the thread:

Oh, but they will say that though Jesus paid off their debt of sin, they must accept it. They must turn their life over to Jesus.

How? Did we not just learn that Father gifts Faith and Spiritual Insight to those He wills and each of His children can only see and hear what we are given. If some are BLIND and Deaf to Jesus, how can these poor ignorant people be blamed? Can a wheat seed be blamed for not growing on a path or rocky ground. Like wise a wheat field choked by thorns cannot be the fault of the Seed.

I still believe that they must turn their lives over to Christ even though I still agree with much of your OP about God's sovereignty. It reminds me of Romans 9

Romans 9
17 For the scripture saith unto Pharaoh, Even for this same purpose have I raised thee up, that I might shew my power in thee, and that my name might be declared throughout all the earth.
18 Therefore hath he mercy on whom he will have mercy, and whom he will he hardeneth.
19 Thou wilt say then unto me, Why doth he yet find fault? For who hath resisted his will?
20 Nay but, O man, who art thou that repliest against God? Shall the thing formed say to him that formed it, Why hast thou made me thus?

Just because we cannot resist his will does not mean he cannot give people the consequences of their unbelief in spades, which he does per Romans 1. He is the Potter, we are the Clay. Those who do not believe in Christ remain in death that God has concluded all under, and they will suffer the consequences for it, and that goes whether or not it's their power to do so.

As to whether or not someone is a minister or not is fine. We are all different. But one thing I believe is clear from the scripture: Those who call upon the name of the Lord will be saved.

As to how that plays out, I'm not sure. I don't think you have to be a gifted minister to tell the simple truth of the Gospel. It goes on here on Tentmaker among those who probably would have no idea how gifted they are in talking about Christ.

[Seth]

Seth, I am not perfect by any means, but if I mess up then I am not too proud to own it. I would be lying if I said I was not zealous in sharing all I had to share. Touché

You push me harder than I like but no harder than I need.  :HeartThrob:

Thank you for your willingness to share all you have been given to know.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

That's why we are here, to share what we have.  :HeartThrob: :friendstu:

[eaglesway]

Eagle, please do not think that I am disagreeing with anything you wrote, for I am not. I just wish to add clarity to the term GOSPEL.

Gospel is understood to mean "Good News"

Why is it that so much that I hear as "Good News" is anything but Good. Even the term "GoodNews" is tainted now, because the GoodNews touted as such is laced with conditions, threats and promises that are absolutely horrid. Who wants to hear that they or their loved ones are going to roast alive in a pit of fire forever. This unfortunately this is what is bought and sold all over the world, daily.

The GoodNews if that Fathers Kingdom is within each of His children and everyone of His children can have a personal relationship with Father. There is more good news; our sins are forgiven through Jesus sacrifice, the list of GoodNews is almost endless and when spoken and delivered with the fruits of the Spirit evident, then all the better. But even more so, how bright will the GoodNews Shine if the hearer can see through he mannerism of the teller, ALL of the things spoken about.

I do not like the term "selling" the Gospel, but to be effective ministers of the GoodNews, all that we are and how it is presented (Paul becoming all things to all people) that the GoodNews is not only heard but it is seen.

Just my thoughts, Thank you for sharing yours.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

Hi Julie,

First off, let me say that I am perfectly fine with anyone disagreeing with me, especially you since you are always so nice about it :o).

Secondly, Please dont read my posts as if they are directed at you specifically- they arent. These are long standing issues  of discussion on the forum and I am speaking generally to the topics- and simply giving my opinion on them (altho sometimes I get a lil enthusiastic and it may sound like preaching, sorry :o)

Nextly, I agree with you that sometimes the good news is rendered in a bad way. How beautifull on the mountaintops are the feet of them that bring glad tidings....

I do not think, nor do I think I am presenting,(unless accidentally) that we should be preaching down to people or judging people at all. Jesus did not judge, He declared. His heart was full of love but at times He was stern. I am only amplifying the obvious responsibility that is given with the gospel to declare it according to the leading of the SPirit and in love, because I see it in the word that Paul received it as such and carried it as a stewardship. Certainly His message brought great joyy to multitudes even as Jesus and all the rest of the apostles did, taking the glory of God out of the hands of men and giving it directly to the people with love, healing, deliverance et al.

They were persecuted and driven away, killed and hated for it. The god of this world is not yet rendered impotent and the  "good news" that Jesus set all men free is bad news to him, for his hour is late. Those who serve him, or walk in the "spirit of disobedience" or the "natural man" for those who don't believe in the devil as a being, are warned by Jesus, and the apostles and the prophets.

I think most of those warnings are for the religious. Those who "suppress the truth in unrighteousness" in order to keep people in chains of man-service and blind them to the glorious freedom of the children of God.

And Jesus forgave even them from His cross, "Father forgive them they dont know what they are doing".

As we discuss the word we bring balance to one another and we become increasingly better able to give a defense of whatever we believe the gospel is, and I believe there is a gospel, given once for all to the saints and struggled for by the apostles and all those who have through the generations, in good conscience sought to grasp hold of the heart of God that is revealed there from faith to faith.

The gospel/goodnews, "euangelion" reveals the "kind intention/goodwill", eudokia, of God to all, but not all will receive it as such in this age, "Come sit at My right hand until I make all your adversaries a footstool for your feet".

Each in their own order all will come to Him to bow down and to confess with joy, "You are My Lord."

In the meantime those of us who have already done so ought to ,imo, live in the spirit of His love, giving to the needy and the weak and the poor in spirit while declaring that the kingdom of God is near in whatever way the Father leads us to- and that makes room for a WIDE ARRAY of expressions in my opinion, and a wide array of gifts and visions for sharing, and just living in Jesus as witnesses.

[JulieTang84]

Please forgive me for not responding sooner to your wonderful post Eagle. Your words are always so calming and filled with Spirit. They touch my heart.


I agree with all that you wrote. It must seem like I am on some kind of crusade and I guess I am. Who knows why.  :dunno2:  So much has happened in the last couple of years. I am no longer the same person at all. Father has granted me such a profound peace and I am utterly free, just like the freedom you mentioned. I totally agree that we should all live in the spirit of Love and help others as often as we can. I know I do not help as often as I should. I know this because how I feel later, when I didn't put food in a collection basket or toys in a gift box for kids who have nothing. Oh I donate money, but it is not the same is it. Father is reminding me gently and I feel like a child again. It is really something feeling like I am a little girl again learning from her Father.


Father has opened my eyes and understanding to so many things. Things that I alway understood are now seen in a new light. That is kind of funny as the Spirit of Truth is light. I used to worry, but not anymore. My boss says I am fearless as nothing phases me. I tell you this because this is not who I was, not by a long stretch. Life is now an amazing adventure and I never know what Father is going to send my way. The peace and simple assurance that my life now is, is priceless. I could lose EVERYTHING, but I would lose NOTHING, because the gift of Spirit cannot be bought or sold, much less stolen. Just having experienced it is enough. I cannot thank Father enough.


Though I am surrounded by loved ones, I so wish that I could share all that is happening with someone  until I remember that I am sharing this with Father. This is our time and I just melt. :cloud9:


To quote a Scripture: Be still and KNOW that I am God. This means so much more than it once did. There is a whole kingdom waiting to be explored within myself and I am only just discovering who Julie really is.


Sorry for rambling, it;s something I tend to do.....


Love Julie  :HeartThrob: