Saved from what?

[jabcat]

Scriptures that address the OP, "saved from what"?

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."  Mt. 1:21

Ephessians 2:1  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Eph 2:12  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

John 1:12  Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

[JulieTang84]

Scriptures that address the OP, "saved from what"?

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."  Mt. 1:21

Ephessians 2:1  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Eph 2:12  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

John 1:12  Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

James, please consider this

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

and now this....

1Cr 3:14
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

What reward? Eternal Life? How so, for even the greatest sinner receives that. The reward might be that he/she has passed the grade and does not have to come back and try over. Though I am not going there!!!! The reward is that he/she will NOT see ANYTHING that they have done in this life destroyed. This is not what is taught by the church and hopefully not you either. Paul IS NOT saying "MOSTLY" or "75%+" Neither is he saying, severely damaged but structurally sound (figurative)

He is saying if EVERYTHING that has been built survives.

1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here is another lie spread by the Church. They say ALL or Nothing. It's a positive LIE!!!!!!

I do not have the reference for this Scripture, but I am sure you know the one when Jesus says: Those who have been given little and do wrong will be beaten with few blows, whereas those that have been given much, much is expected and those who have been entrusted with much, MUCH MORE will be demanded. (Words mine from memory)

We have a bell curve, nothing more, nothing less. This does not mean that those who are given little will not lose a lot, for they may very well indeed lose more than the one who was entrusted with MUCH. How painful it is sure to be to one such as this, by just a few wrong words, thoughts or actions. Yet how joyful will it be for those who lose nothing to the flames. Am I saying Father demands PERFECTION. I do not know for certain, but Jesus said: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Mat 5:48 So it is quite possible that He is.

Never the less, every bad habit, angry or jealous heart will be cleansed. Every wrong thought or word will be purified. Is there any here, myself included who thinks they will go through the flames and LOSE NOTHING!!!!!!

The Church says: "Just say Jesus is Lord and you receive your reward which is not going through the flames. 

But Paul says: "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." - 1Cr 3:13

Do you believe James, that EVERYTHING you have thought, said, implied and that every action has been sufficient and good enough to survive Fathers Consuming Fire? Heb 12:29

What if only some of it is destroyed, do you deserve a REWARD? Why not the criminal who was given very little, doesn't deserve one too. Of course we cannot for get the single mother who stole what ever she could to feed her children. Doing exactly what she had to do with what she was given. Surely she must receive something, for her love for her children never failed. Honestly, where does one draw the line? Can one?

The simple truth is that the REWARD is not Eternal Life, because every last person will gain that.

I know you do not believe that anyone is saved. Saved from what?

Well this is what I said in my first post of this thread:

The answer may shock, but it is quite simple: "To be found wanting on the Last Day, after being gifted with every means necessary to Shine as bright as brightest Star" - Julie Tang

Found Wanting means losing any of our works to Fathers purifying flames. 

To this point, I agree with you as DEATH is not an option and Yes, Jesus has SAVED everyone from their sins, all will be drawn to him, every last person.

So, wrapping this up. I would hope that all who have a loving relationship with Father and Jesus will suffer a whole lot less than any that do not, but be not surprised if Father Loves us ALL EQUALLY!!!!

With Much Love, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

I believe this(saved from what?) is a excellent question. The ages long focus on "saved from hell" has skewered our perspectives to a great extent IMO.

We are not "saved from hell".

There is no hell, as such, to be saved from. We are(sozo) healed, delivered, made whole from Adams nature- translated into the kingdom of God "in Christ" the new vine.

The old, "if you dont accept Jesus you will go to hell paradigm" is a tool of the devil to further veil me's eyes to the true nature and purpose of God, whose "kind intention" is to gather all things into one in Christ, whether things in heaven or on earth.

Man looks on the outter shell but God looks into the heart. The gospel of Jesus Christ is an invitation and a declaration of deliverance for all ad all will be delivered through it. JESUS IS THE GOSPEL.

Some folks are still defending the old paradigm, which was a plant, a heresy introduced, new false paradigm(Jesus or hell). I dont believe in it. I dont believe it was ever true.


"HERE IS YOUR TICKET. IF YOUR TICKET IS STAMPED YOU WILL GET IN. WE ARE THE TICKED STAMPERS. PETER WILL COLLECT YOUR TICKET AT THE GATE OF HEAVEN.

We are the gates of heaven.

"Be lifted up ye olam gates, be lifted up(opened) you olam doors."

Heaven comes through us and men enter heaven through us if we are opened, unveiled, IF JESUS CAN BE SEEN IN US. If His love is there.

When the veil between the heavens and the earth is torn and the ancient of days appears some will cry to the caves and the rocks, "Fall on us and hide us from the face of the Lamb and the One who sits upon the throne". Some will rejoice.

Here is where I get in trouble :o)

I believe many will rejoice in that moment WHO NEVER KNEW HIS NAME IN THEIR EARTHLY LIVES.

They will recognize Him and rejoice in His name. Perhaps they never heard the gospel. Perhaps they lived as barbarians before the advent. Perhaps all they ever heard was, "Jesus or hell" and they did not recognize Him in that. Perhaps all they ever heard was, "Let us stamp your ticket to heaven" and they did not recognize Him in that.

My opinion is that the only way into the new creation is through SEEING Jesus, in the heart of faith. The idea that everyone who has not heard or received the gospel must spend some time in hell, however..........I consider that to be a false doctrine.

There is no hell. There is a lake of fire and we know that many who had their ticket stamped(Lord,Lord) will pass through that to some extent, whatever that really is.

IMO, Many who did not SEE Him in this life will recognize Him the instant they awake, and only God knows who they are.

Eagle, you have spoken the words of my heart yet again. If only this truth was understood as well as the lie it contradicts. I mean how can it be any other way? It simply cannot.


Thank you so very much, Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Edited -
Yes, interesting Julie.  I can relate to some of what you wrote.  My thoughts, because of what the scriptures say?  If you indeed have trusted Him as your Savior, Christ alone and nothing else - then your walk of faith indeed did begin with initial trust in Him, because He's the One that gives that gift.  Then I believe all else from there is a journey, with some of the struggles in your walk then based on mistaken ideas (from various sides of the matter from what you say).  If you've called on Jesus and been given faith to believe on Him, then that's done.  No matter how you feel, how confused you get, how much people rail at you..because that's what the scriptures say.  I believe we can get "lost" along the way (not really lost as in "no longer His child", but simply confused and "a babe", or even wander off the path and have to eventually be pulled back, in the meantime wallowing in pig slop [prodigal]).  Any of us can THINK we've figured it out and be wrong, or on the other hand, we can think we have nothing, that He doesn't love us, He's not in us, and be wrong about that too.  I DON'T believe we should totally discount our experiences, but examine them.  So I believe that's where this comes in, which I for one need reminded of often;

if I just let my mind run wild, I can imagine and concoct all sorts of things.   I believe we should base things as often as possible on the Spirit revealed Word, checking our experiences, emotions, ideas, beliefs against the scriptures [in prayer and open to the Spirit for revelation/understanding.  Our own subjective experiences are just that.  Subjective - so then vulnerable to our
own interpretation, which may or may not be accurate (as well as having whispers from the deceiver in our ear).  We often base things we observe on our own issues, thought patterns, past life experiences that shape us, etc., so we can mis-interpret what's happening - which I've personally often done.  I can base my beliefs on a perception of an experience.  I can think I'm "just right".  I can think I've finally figured out this whole spiritual thing, "moved beyond" certain things etc., "figure out" that although the scriptures say one thing, I've personally experienced something else so that must be what's really true and how it really works.

On the other hand;   Matthew 24:35 -  Heaven and earth will pass away, but my words will never pass away.  And  Hebrews 13:8 -  Jesus Christ is the same yesterday and today and forever.

Jeremiah 17:9 "The human heart is the most deceitful of all things, and desperately wicked."   
Test all things ["you err because you do not know the scriptures" - Jesus.  "They searched the scriptures daily to see if these things are so" - Paul]   and hold fast to that which is good [sound].

Sorry James, I should've responded to this post first. I will speak candidly and honestly. This talk of feelings, beliefs, whispers from the deceiver, life patters, peer pressure, weak spirit was NEVER THE CASE with me and MAY FATHER STRIKE ME DEAD if I am deceiving you now. I am not saying that this does not happen, but just never to me. Please let me explain.


I knew EVERYTHING I needed to know, I just did not know what it was. However, I rejected or rather the Spirit in me rejected most everything I was taught. Please don't ask me why. There were no emotions are than sorrowful prayers begging Father to make me like everyone else. HA!!! That didn't work. My Spiritual journey was like a picture of a jigsaw puzzle with all the wrong pieces, nothing Fit. But when Father stepped in and corrected the pieces, everything began to FIT PERFECTLY and there was no question. Everything I KNOW has multiple Scriptural witnesses. This is not to say that I do not have strong inclinations on various things that cannot be arbitrarily proven by Scripture, BUT these are not even beliefs. I believe they may be possible, but  I DO NOT KNOW that they are true.


Knowledge is so much more secure than a belief. For to KNOW that I will be hurt if I do something silly is of much greater value than believing I won't.


Father has/is and I trust, will continue to reveal Himself to me. I believe Eagle said it best: There is a profound peace regarding new truth, so much so that it fits PERFECTLY and that it is KNOWN to be true. NOT BY THE MIND, but by the Spirit and this is how it should be. Of course EVERY TRUTH can be backed with Scripture, just as Jesus said to always do.


This is just how it has been. How has it been for you?


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

I bought Greek and Hebrew bibles which I have still. I bought as many different bibles that I could find and it seemed there was as many differences in them as the churches I attended. And still I prayed, I begged Jesus to reveal himself to me. I KNEW he was there for me, but I couldn't even feel him.

Julie, thank you for sharing your testimony. It's a soul bearing thing to do and I really appreciate you bringing it to the table. I selected the above quote because I identify with it a lot. I came from a largely Charismatic background in the various churches I attended.

They stressed feelings a lot. In fact, in my last church they seemed to stress feelings as a way of knowing if God is there or not. I did that too but I have changed my view on it.

I read your whole post, but the reason I selected this part is simply to suggest that maybe we tend to place too much emphasis on feeling as a way to verify God's presence. Feelings, after all, are a physical manifestation. What if you didn't feel anything, and all you had to go on is faith, that although he is not manifesting physically, he is still there? I think feelings are unreliable in this case, not bad mind you, just unreliable.

Believe me, I am not downtalking feelings, and I am definitely not saying that Christ will not cause us to feel things. But I have seen so many Christians struggle with doubt because they cannot get the feelings they need. They get a feeling of "dryness" or "emptiness." That's all from the body. That's only the flesh talking. It does not mean he isn't there.

When I realized that, I dropped it. I stopped thinking about feelings of dryness and emptiness and just decided to believe he is there no matter what my feelings are. I am just writing this because I have a heart for fellow Christians who struggle on the basis of that, and believe that God is drawing back from them for some reason.

It could be, if you don't feel him, that is actually strengthening you to not measure his presence based on body reactions, but on the simple knowledge that if he said he would never leave you, you can stand on it.

Seth, I just responded to James regarding FEELING's so I will not go over the same again. Only to offer to you what I wrote by checking out that post.

Oh I agree that Father was there, but not in the same manner as He is now. A room with a light will only be lit if the bulb is shining. It will always; however, be a room with a light. Being empty was KNOWING that What I knew (not that I could have put it in words) was NOT what I was being "told."

There were no feelings like: "oh that's horrible, I am NOT going to believe that!" or "Oh that sounds wonderful, that's what I am talking about" These are feelings based on what we THINK and FEEL but not on truth. It has always been the Wrong Piece in right hole. None of the pieces fit. I had nothing. I was empty.

It could be, if you don't feel him, that is actually strengthening you to not measure his presence based on body reactions, but on the simple knowledge that if he said he would never leave you, you can stand on it.

Yes it could but not in this case. There was a knowledge had of Father, but back then there was no indication that He was there or not. Sure I felt good when I did good, and bad when I did bad, but that was not Father. What is was Seth and I know this now, was a major test of FAITH. I am happy to say that I never sold out on what He gave me, not that I even knew what the was. Yes I prayed that He would make me like everyone else, simply because I couldn't on my own.

During the last couple of years, you would be astonished regarding the things I have discovered that I never knew I knew. I KNOW Father is with me. There is a peace and an assurance that is even more than felt, but felt just the same.

About a year ago, Father turned off. Nothing, I mean NOTHING. There was NO EMOTION, no LOVE, no HATE, no happiness, no sadness, no joy, no anger, no frustration, no anticipation. Just a wasteland. Now this was interesting. Father was like the light in the room. He was there but He was not communicating. Nothing. This went on for several weeks, a long time really before I "got" it.

The single most PROFOUND LESSON ever learned. Father took my world away from me, every preconception, hurt, betrayal and anger was gone. He nullified everything and I was given a blank slate to rebuild my world any way I wanted. He showed me that I was a creator of life, not just a participant. That if I wanted to see things in the best way possible, then this is how they would be seen. If I wanted joy in my life than joy would be had. If I wanted to always see the good in every-situation then that is what I would see. My WHOLE LIFE has changed. Even my past, as I rewrote that too. Hurts from long ago, vanished. Friends I gave up on because of wrongs were friends again, because I forgave my self for holding something against them for so long.

Who knows what Father has planned for me, but I "know" this: Life is as wonderful as I choose to make it and "bad" as I want it to be. My life is Wonderful, not perfect but wonderful all the same. Father came back after I "got it." My knowledge did not suffer nor did my faith, however, my understanding to a hit. I have learned that one does not need to UNDERSTAND SPIRITUAL knowledge to make it true.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[jabcat]

Scriptures that address the OP, "saved from what"?

She will give birth to a son, and you are to give him the name Jesus, because he will save his people from their sins."  Mt. 1:21

Ephessians 2:1  As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins,

Eph 2:12  remember that at that time you were separate from Christ, excluded from citizenship in Israel and foreigners to the covenants of the promise, without hope and without God in the world.

John 1:12  Yet to all who did receive him, to those who believed in his name, he gave the right to become children of God--

James, please consider this

John 3:16
New International Version (NIV)
16 For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life.

and now this....

1Cr 3:14
If what has been built survives, the builder will receive a reward.

What reward? Eternal Life? How so, for even the greatest sinner receives that. The reward might be that he/she has passed the grade and does not have to come back and try over. Though I am not going there!!!! The reward is that he/she will NOT see ANYTHING that they have done in this life destroyed. This is not what is taught by the church and hopefully not you either. Paul IS NOT saying "MOSTLY" or "75%+" Neither is he saying, severely damaged but structurally sound (figurative)

He is saying if EVERYTHING that has been built survives.

1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here is another lie spread by the Church. They say ALL or Nothing. It's a positive LIE!!!!!!

I do not have the reference for this Scripture, but I am sure you know the one when Jesus says: Those who have been given little and do wrong will be beaten with few blows, whereas those that have been given much, much is expected and those who have been entrusted with much, MUCH MORE will be demanded. (Words mine from memory)

We have a bell curve, nothing more, nothing less. This does not mean that those who are given little will not lose a lot, for they may very well indeed lose more than the one who was entrusted with MUCH. How painful it is sure to be to one such as this, by just a few wrong words, thoughts or actions. Yet how joyful will it be for those who lose nothing to the flames. Am I saying Father demands PERFECTION. I do not know for certain, but Jesus said: "Be perfect, therefore, as your heavenly Father is perfect." - Mat 5:48 So it is quite possible that He is.

Never the less, every bad habit, angry or jealous heart will be cleansed. Every wrong thought or word will be purified. Is there any here, myself included who thinks they will go through the flames and LOSE NOTHING!!!!!!

The Church says: "Just say Jesus is Lord and you receive your reward which is not going through the flames. 

But Paul says: "Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is." - 1Cr 3:13

Do you believe James, that EVERYTHING you have thought, said, implied and that every action has been sufficient and good enough to survive Fathers Consuming Fire? Heb 12:29

What if only some of it is destroyed, do you deserve a REWARD? Why not the criminal who was given very little, doesn't deserve one too. Of course we cannot for get the single mother who stole what ever she could to feed her children. Doing exactly what she had to do with what she was given. Surely she must receive something, for her love for her children never failed. Honestly, where does one draw the line? Can one?

The simple truth is that the REWARD is not Eternal Life, because every last person will gain that.

I know you do not believe that anyone is saved. Saved from what?

Well this is what I said in my first post of this thread:

The answer may shock, but it is quite simple: "To be found wanting on the Last Day, after being gifted with every means necessary to Shine as bright as brightest Star" - Julie Tang

Found Wanting means losing any of our works to Fathers purifying flames. 

To this point, I agree with you as DEATH is not an option and Yes, Jesus has SAVED everyone from their sins, all will be drawn to him, every last person.

So, wrapping this up. I would hope that all who have a loving relationship with Father and Jesus will suffer a whole lot less than any that do not, but be not surprised if Father Loves us ALL EQUALLY!!!!

With Much Love, Julie  :HeartThrob:

I'm a little confused as to what it is we are exactly discussing based on your OP, "what are we saved from", and my reply directly from scripture.  Yes, I believe in rewards, I believe all will likely lose something, some more than others. 

As far as saying that I don't believe anyone's saved now, maybe that's a typo?
Anyway, although I believe we may differ here - I believe the scriptures teach some are given faith to believe unto salvation of the spirit in this life (spiritual rebirth), while most not until the next age.  Also, that those not given yet, will have a wide variety of experiences in the next age - but basically, whatever it takes to bring one to kneel and confess Jesus is Lord.  That may be almost instant for some, for others, I don't know.  That's up to God, He knows.  But this age or the next, He's the door of the sheepfold.  Anyone who enters in any other way is the same as a thief and a robber, quoting Jesus.


Reincarnation, coming back to "get it right"?   It is appointed unto man once to die.  Also, the cross.

I wouldn't exactly call it a bell curve, but yes, Jesus did talk about the few and many stripes.  I don't believe that contradicts any of the verses I posted.   :dontknow: 

There are others, but the 4 scrips I noted in response to the OP, to my understanding tell us in order of the verses (and related)    Jesus saves us  1.  from the power of sin over our lives;  2  from being spiritually dead   3.  from being separate from Christ, lost, and without God;  and saves us TO 4.  being His children.     Nothing stated there about some having eternal (aionios) life and others not, or only 75% etc.;  or about rewards, or lies of the church - so I'm a little confused about what you want me to consider exactly as applies to the OP.  Thanks.

[jabcat]

This is just how it has been. How has it been for you?

ongoing journey, a never-ending-story :)

my main point, really, was to say that according to my understanding of scripture, a person is given faith to believe on Jesus, then their true spiritual journey begins.   "Without me you can do nothing". - Jesus.

[Seer After Truth]

Julie,

Interesting question.  I "accidentally" found this old book this week by Elbridge Gerry Brooks (He was a Unitarian, but like Thayer who was also a Unitarian, he gave a very thorough explanation of what he meant by it.  I have not gotten into his discussion on Christ, but as you will see from the quote below, Jesus is the saviour (old spelling) of the world): 
http://books.google.com/books?id=3LQpAAAAYAAJ&printsec=frontcover&dq=universalism+a+practical+power&hl=en&sa=X&ei=h7_QUsnAOsqi2wXV5oCwCg&ved=0CC8Q6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=universalism%20a%20practical%20power&f=false

It is a series of discourses (given originally as sermons).  Interestingly, his first discourse is on the question of "If Universalism is true and everyone will be saved, why preach it?"  He bases his response on Titus 2:11-14.  I was reading the book earlier tonight and starting  from page 37 of the file (This is from the Archive.org text copy) I think is an excellent portion of the book that is related to your "question":

And this, I come now finally to say, is precisely what
we preach Universalism for — this only: as a means
of moral power, in the conviction that there is no other
force, or combination of principles, so potent for this end
as Universalism, when it is understood and felt. First
of all, indeed, we preach it to enlighten souls ; to in-
terpret what is otherwise mysterious ; to assure the
world of the beneficent meaning of life and of all its
appointments and experiences; across all clouds, to

IF TRUE, WHY PREACH IT? 31

show the bow of divine mercy, and beyond all suffering
and sorrow and sin, to disclose God's sublime Result.
But this is only by the way. The one sole ultimate
end for which we preach is, to show men God as a
Father, Christ as a Saviour, and Heaven as a Home,
that we may lead them to abhor and renounce all that
is evil, and to live and love and work and pray as the
children of God, the redeemed of the Lord and the
heirs of Immortality.

And will any one of you tell me, now, for what great-
er or better end we could preach than this ? Which is
the nobler, think you — to labor to save men from hell,
or to save them from sin ? to preach to make them safe,
or to make them pure and Christ-like? When you
think of it, my friends, what work is so important, or
so needed with respect to any of us, as this which God
has so constantly had in view, and which we are hum-
bly seeking to further? Life: ah! how little we real-
ize what it is to live, and what grand and solemn mean-
ings are included in this little word I We carry the
elements of our weal or woe within us — all the possi-
bilities of heaven or hell, and all the glories of immor-
tality : and yet we are constantly looking away from
our life to things outside of ourselves for the things of
our chief concern. While God is calling us to be no-
ble and pure, and to grow large and blessed as souls,
and has furnished us with all these helps and inspira-
tions to make us so, we are living, too many of us, as if
we were only bodies, and as if food and raiment and
houses and lands and the perishable pleasures of the
moment were all we can possess or en^oy I — satisfied to

82 UNIVERSALISM A PRACTICAL POWEB.

grovel and feed on dust, instead of looking up, feeding
on angels' food! And as if it were not enough that
this mistake should be made with respect to this world,
countless numbers are projecting it into eternity, and
are reckoning it as their engrossing concern, in the dis-
cipleship of Christ, to get away from hell, instead of
cleansing themselves from sin and trying to grow into
a character in the likeness of the Redeemer! When
will men and women be wise in this thing ? Especially,
amidst all that God has done to educate us as souls
and to incite us to the effort to be true to ourselves
and to Him — in presence, above all, of the Life and
Cross of Christ, when will Christians learn this one
lesson — that, whether in this world or any other, alike
in time and eternity. Life is more than meat ; that
righteous character is more than all external things ;
and that whoever preaches, or in any way labors, to
rectify and Christianize character, toils for the noblest
of all possible ends ? To be awakened to a conscious-
ness of God and of ourselves and of divine relation-
ships, — to be filled with faith and love and moral pow-
er, — to be inspired with a sense of duty, — to be made
superior to sin and thoroughly loyal to our highest
possibilities, in the purpose to be, as far as we may,
through Christ, like God,— what, if Religion be not a
dream and the Cross a lie, if there be a God and we
are souls destined to live forever, what so much as
this do we need ourselves ? — to what so much as this do
we need to help others ?

And when we consider what we ourselves are, and
look out into the world — on its errors and sins, on its

IP TRUE, WHY PREACH IT ? 33

low, false estimates of life, and the mean and empty
pursuits which so occupy mankind, on the giant wrongs
that are casting their shadows across the face of hu-
manity, and the cancerous evils that are eating into its
vitals, what a sublime conception it gives us of the
mission of Christ, to think that this work of inspiration,
ennoblement and sanctification, not only for us, but for
all men, is the work with which he has been charged,
and which he is yet to accomplish as the Saviour of the
world! This is not the purpose for which he has been
mainly preached ; but those who have preached his
name have " builded better than they knew." In spite
of their misconceptions and errors, his name and his
Cross have become the efficient forces in a regenera-
tion they have not contemplated ; and thus this — the very
work for which, as Universalists, we preach Christ to
day — has been the work which he has been doing ever
since he has been preached at all. What a power he
has thus been! Look behind us, over the fields he has
illumined with his ministry through these last eighteen
hundred years. See how many souls he has not only
instructed and comforted, but quickened into newness
of life. See how many social wrongs and how many
hoary evils and abuses he has caused the world to out-
grow and cast aside. And every soul thus enlarged,
purified and lifted up, every public or private wrong
conquered and destroyed, only serves to show us his
sufficiency for the work assigned him, and, illustrating
the purpose for which we preach Universalism, becomes
the pledge and prophecy of the world's complete re-
demption.

34 UNIVERSALISM A PBACTICAL POWER.

Let us thank God that a Gospel has been given us
contemplating such a stupendous end, and equal to it ;
that not only is Christianity clothed with a moral mean-
ing, like every thing else, but that He has made it, as
nothing else is, the efficient instrument of His power
to save from sin ; and that, therefore, it shall continue
to work on — working more mightily as it becomes bet-
ter understood, converting and regenerating souls and
rectifying wrongs, until, at length, the hour shall come
when every knee shall bow and every tongue confess
that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the
Father.

I must admit that I have been eating dust rather than Angel's food.  I like what has been said on this thread, especially as the idea of being saved as being made whole.  Too often I am fractured.

William

[eaglesway]

This is just how it has been. How has it been for you?

ongoing journey, a never-ending-story :)

my main point, really, was to say that according to my understanding of scripture, a person is given faith to believe on Jesus, then their true spiritual journey begins.   "Without me you can do nothing". - Jesus.

I hav a little different view, if I understand what you are saying James. My spiritual journey began before I met Jesus(at 21 years old). I journeyed along several pathways seeking "the truth", having no idea what it was. "No man comes to me except the Father draw him". The Father drew me with a yearning in my heart and in my mind I knew I was searching, seeking, trying to find my way into some transcendent reality- and I admit freely, Jesus was the last thing I expected to find :o) I wandered through esoteric writings of various types.....through mind expanding(not) drugs, the occult and metaphysics, and all of that broke me down, even as my sinfulness was also breaking me down. When I saw Jesus....Christ crucified....I was forever altered. I knew WHO the truth was. I was not in a church. I had never heard a sermon. I had been witnessed to a few times and I know someone(s) was praying for me but up until that moment I was totally unaware of Christianity other than as one of many religions. That was how I was raised.

So, I would say my spiritual journey began somewhere early in my life when the Father began to draw me. It was a journey through darkness towards the light (the earth was formless and void, but the Spirit was hovering over the waters).

Then I saw Jesus(Let there be Light!) and I knew light from darkness and soon dry land and fruitfulness emerged, but....then I got caught up in religion and before long I was in chaos again :o)

Wheels within wheels. Life is so immense. Being. Finding Jesus. Losing Jesus. Being found again LOL. Its been a long journey. I am not sure when it began LOL

[jabcat]

thanks for clarifying, and letting me clarify...no, i'm not saying we're never on some sort of spiritual journey, or that God doesn't deal with us, draw us etc.;  sometimes for a long time before He's revealed in His Son.

I'm REALLY  :laugh: saying (after how many tries) that no one truly knows the Father UNTIL they see the Son.  That new age, eastern religions, etc., don't fulfill that need of Jesus being the door to the sheepfold, and only until we enter that way, are we truly in fellowship with Him - i.e., His friend, His brother, a child rather than "lost and without Him".  Rather than wandering, now being led...  Did I do any better?

(mainly, the 4 scrips I posted would serve as my reference :)  http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/saved-from-what/msg167104/#msg167104

[Seth]

What reward? Eternal Life? How so, for even the greatest sinner receives that.

To answer some of these questions, here is what I believe: A crown

2 Timothy 4
6For I am now ready to be offered, and the time of my departure is at hand. 7I have fought a good fight, I have finished my course, I have kept the faith: 8Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing.

A crown of righteousness. Paul talked about a certain judgment that the Sons of God would take part in "in that day."

1 Cor 6
1Dare any of you, having a matter against another, go to law before the unjust, and not before the saints? 2Do ye not know that the saints shall judge the world? and if the world shall be judged by you, are ye unworthy to judge the smallest matters? 3Know ye not that we shall judge angels? how much more things that pertain to this life?

It's becoming clearer.....

Revelation 2:26-27
And he that overcometh, and keepeth my works unto the end, to him will I (Jesus) give power over the nations: And he shall rule (Greek POIMANO - to tend as a shepherd) them with a rod of iron; as the vessels of a potter shall they be broken to shivers: even as I received of my Father.

Finishing with....

Romans 8
18For I consider that the sufferings of this present time are not worthy to be compared with the glory that is to be revealed in us. 19For the anxious longing of the creation waits eagerly for the revealing of the sons of God. 20For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope 21that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. 22For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now. 23And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. 24For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees?

He is saying if EVERYTHING that has been built survives.

1Cr 3:15
If it is burned up, the builder will suffer loss but yet will be saved—even though only as one escaping through the flames.

Here is another lie spread by the Church. They say ALL or Nothing. It's a positive LIE!!!!!!

1 Corinthians 3
13each man's work will become evident; for the day will show it because it is to be revealed with fire, and the fire itself will test the quality of each man's work. 14If any man's work which he has built on it remains, he will receive a reward. 15If any man's work is burned up, he will suffer loss; but he himself will be saved, yet so as through fire.

There is a difference here between the work and the worker. It's pretty clear to me that they are building a house, which is what a foundation is for. Jesus warned that building upon sand results in a destroyed house.

What Paul is saying is that, indeed, the works will all be burned up (destroyed by fire) and the only thing that Paul says will survive is the builder. In short: we are talking about wholesale destruction.

What I believe this symbolizes, I have discussed many times on this forum, is that the wood, hay and stubble represent sinful works. Sinful works as described by Apostle James result in a body aflame. The tongue is a fire, a world of iniquity. That fire will cause the destruction of the house so that when the Spirit and the Bride say "Come, all ye that are athirst and drink the water of life freely" The builders will be saved, yet so as by fire, escaping the fire is how they will enter the City to drink the Water.

The judgment fire comes from God, as in the Prodigal Son, the father divided an inheritance among two sons, and one son squandered it. The Father turned the Prodigal Son over to his carnal mind, and in that way, it was fire from Heaven.

1 Thess 5
1Now, brothers and sisters, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, 2for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. 3While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape.

They will not escape the destruction of their works, but the builder will be saved, which is why destruction will be like labor pains on a pregnant woman. Suffering, but with life in the end.

1 Cor 5:5
Deliver such an one (someone in the church who was sleeping with his father's wife) unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.


Peter talks about a "reward" also given to the ungodly, as opposed to the one Paul spoke about for the faithful.

2 Peter 2: 6
and if He condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah to destruction by reducing them to ashes, having made them an example to those who would live ungodly lives thereafter; 9The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

10But chiefly them that walk after the flesh in the lust of uncleanness, and despise government. Presumptuous are they, selfwilled, they are not afraid to speak evil of dignities. 11Whereas angels, which are greater in power and might, bring not railing accusation against them before the Lord. 12But these, as natural brute beasts, made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things that they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption (that's the fire of Gehenna - their own corruption) ; 13And shall receive the reward of unrighteousness, as they that count it pleasure to riot in the day time. Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you;

That's the reward in the day of judgment for the ungodly: The reward of UNRIGHTEOUSNESS itself. Again, the Prodigal Son. He recieved the reward of unrighteousness. His house was destroyed but the builder was saved yet so as by fire.

[JulieTang84]

Sorry James, TYPO . I should have said EVERYONE Not "Anyone"


My bad  :doh:


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[sheila]

another thing.....those in Christ also testify with Him...that the prince of this world's works are

wicked...[man in corrupt image]

   it all boils down to God's Sovereignty to elect,call choose those to 'positions' in Heaven..

   'crown' positions...depending not on man..but on God choosing. Before they had done anything

  good or evil.[see sons of thunder and their mother's request] certain positions are 'prepared'

of God..for certain elect men.   this has to do with the adminstration/government in the kingdom of

heaven.   reward...take charge of five cities..etc...this is position in the administration/government

of God. the twelve selection..the 72..selection..the seven selection.  It is a priviledge and an

honour.[think Joseph...his choosing by God...his suffering ....his exalting to a position...those that

were not selected for the position were loved also...Joseph was 'sent ahead' for their preservation

during a great famine.

  also,on the negative front..you have Saul,and Judas..who lost their priviledged positions..due

to being rejected as appropriate for it..when found wanting

    It all boils down to God's authority to place who He wants,where He wants..in the administration.

  It is a great honour and a 'glory' . No-one chooses this for himself..it is all dependant on God

this is the 'crown' this is the, 'glory'.

      satan being cast out of the 'heavens...or 'fall like lightening from the sky"..is shadowed of

the corrupt[image] of the religious leaders of the day......sanhedren,sadducees,pharisee's.....

    'your house is left unto you desolate...if ye had only known the time of your visitation"

and losing their positions/glory..and a shame unto them.[desolation of their house]

  saved from what? being condemnedwith the wicked[devil,evil spirits] and eternal destruction

  God has had mercy on man........but severity unto them.  He has not left man entirely unpunished

  our own iniquity rebukes us.  It is appinted unto all men to die[desolation] once..then the

resurrection...and judgement[God's mercy on men,be in image of the incorrupt one] lof for evil

spirits.


  Can we all testify that this world is evil,unjust,corrupt?

  the anointing and Holy spirit is on the head[crown election]  Preists/Kings

  we all have 'places prepared" in the Greater[raised up glorified body]

  my  :2c:

   

[Seth]

   it all boils down to God's Sovereignty to elect,call choose those to 'positions' in Heaven..

   'crown' positions...depending not on man..but on God choosing. Before they had done anything

  good or evil.[see sons of thunder and their mother's request] certain positions are 'prepared'

of God..for certain elect men.   
   

:iagree:


Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

[jabcat]

   it all boils down to God's Sovereignty to elect,call choose those to 'positions' in Heaven..

   'crown' positions...depending not on man..but on God choosing. Before they had done anything

  good or evil.[see sons of thunder and their mother's request] certain positions are 'prepared'

of God..for certain elect men.   
   

:iagree:


Romans 8
28And we know that all things work together for good to them that love God, to them who are the called according to his purpose. 29For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren. 30Moreover whom he did predestinate, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified.

me too .. don't fully understand it, but me too

[JulieTang84]

I have been prompted to give much meditation on the concept of judges and rulers in Fathers Kingdom. Father has painted a somewhat different concept that one that is often portrayed. What would Jesus do? When given responsibility to ruler and judge of tiny lights of pure truth and love. Rule? Judge? I think not, atleast not in the concept that these words atain.


Jesus is/was the great spiritual shepherd. Sure he fended away wolves (figuative) in order to protect his flock. Yet in the next age, there will be no wolves and certainly no darkness, not even a shadow. I see Jesus as being even more than a holy mentor but certinly along these lines. In fact I see ANY who are given such a roll to be the SAME.


Even still, this even poses great problems, unless the end is only the end of a page. First, lets assume it is finished, a done deal. We are now PURE LOVE, PURE LIGHT and PURE TRUTH. Now just for example only, let's assume the measure of these is measure in watts. A 100w light shines brighter than a 25w. So let's assume that a 100w ruler (work with me here) is ruling a bunch of eager to shine 25w underlings. What will be the goal? I mean who wants to "RULE" in Fathers Kingsom? Who wants to have more love than someone else?


But here is the problem of this concept. Why rule, why even mentor. Love is Love, Light is light, and truth is truth, regarless of the wattage, light is still light. Even more so, as we are now ALL ONE with Father, we (anyone) be found wanting in any aspect, because as one is, as is all including Father. Imagine a drop of drinking water, dropped into an ocean of salt water. It is NOT isolated but CONSUMED totally. It's millions of molecules disapte almost instantly. Will not all the spirits following purification be likewise consumed by Father just a thoroughly? Of course, that is if there is a reason for them not to be.


Perhaps a new page is about to begin and Father has a plan on how a 25w Spirit can reach a 50w threshold and then a 75w and so on. I certainly do not know


This is just how I have been given to see it. The book is either finished or not.


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

the way I see it in the scripture is that "as Jesus is, so are we in this world." Therefore we are going on the same path as he is. He is the first fruits his followers are the next fruits and then the rest of the world. that is why we are called the body of Christ. As Jesus was representative in the flesh of his father so we are representative of Christ in the flesh. Jesus Christ was perfect and he is the end result of our glorification and his faithful are imperfect going on a path toward the crown that he wore and that he wears. It's like a lump of leaven to leaven growing to leaven the whole lump. The word "rule" is from poimano meaning to shepherd. He is the Shepherd through his followers to the world, even as His father was through him.

[micah7:9]

As the Bible, the Word of God has stated as well as Seth in simplicity, SIN.
Joh 1:29  on the morrow John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, `Lo, the Lamb of God, who is taking away the sin of the world;

[eaglesway]

thanks for clarifying, and letting me clarify...no, i'm not saying we're never on some sort of spiritual journey, or that God doesn't deal with us, draw us etc.;  sometimes for a long time before He's revealed in His Son.

I'm REALLY  :laugh: saying (after how many tries) that no one truly knows the Father UNTIL they see the Son.  That new age, eastern religions, etc., don't fulfill that need of Jesus being the door to the sheepfold, and only until we enter that way, are we truly in fellowship with Him - i.e., His friend, His brother, a child rather than "lost and without Him".  Rather than wandering, now being led...  Did I do any better?

(mainly, the 4 scrips I posted would serve as my reference :)  http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/saved-from-what/msg167104/#msg167104

I gotcha now :o)

[micah7:9]

thanks for clarifying, and letting me clarify...no, i'm not saying we're never on some sort of spiritual journey, or that God doesn't deal with us, draw us etc.;  sometimes for a long time before He's revealed in His Son.

I'm REALLY  :laugh: saying (after how many tries) that no one truly knows the Father UNTIL they see the Son.  That new age, eastern religions, etc., don't fulfill that need of Jesus being the door to the sheepfold, and only until we enter that way, are we truly in fellowship with Him - i.e., His friend, His brother, a child rather than "lost and without Him".  Rather than wandering, now being led...  Did I do any better?

(mainly, the 4 scrips I posted would serve as my reference :)  http://tentmaker.org/forum/lounge/saved-from-what/msg167104/#msg167104

I gotcha now :o)

Re Read the Jab and quite agree with the simplicity! Ya gotta love the simplicity! :dsunny: