To be Deaf and Blind

[JulieTang84]

This has been weighing heavy on my concious and I believe Father wants me to share.

Jesus spoke much of the blind:   "He has blinded their eyes and hardened their hearts, so they can neither see with their eyes, nor understand with their hearts, nor turn—and I would heal them." - Jhn 12:40

Paul gives witness to this: as it is written "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes that could not see and ears that could not hear, to this very day." - Rom 11:8

Jesus was adamant that it be fully understood, that Father has hardened hardened the hearts and blinded the eyes of many. That Faith is GIFT beyond measure, lest any should boast.

Mar 4:13-20
Then Jesus said to them, "Don't you understand this parable? How then will you understand any parable?

The farmer sows the word.  Some people are like seed along the path, where the word is sown. As soon as they hear it, Satan comes and takes away the word that was sown in them.

Who is the Farmer?

What farmer sows prime seed on a pathway? Such seed could NEVER grow; likewise such people are so Spiritually Blind and Deaf that they can not see or hear anything!!

Others, like seed sown on rocky places, hear the word and at once receive it with joy. But since they have no root, they last only a short time. When trouble or persecution comes because of the word, they quickly fall away.

My heart breaks for such as these, as the have been gifted with enough Spirit to know that there is more than what they see or hear. But as hard as they try, they just cannot come closer to the light of truth, at least not until Father softens their hearts.

Still others, like seed sown among thorns, hear the word;  but the worries of this life, the deceitfulness of wealth and the desires for other things come in and choke the word, making it unfruitful.

What chance has any seed flourishing in the company of thorns? Such people truly do the best that they can, but they are not equipped with Faith enough to withstand the trials and tribulations of daily life. This NOT BY ACCIDENT, faith is a gift and cannot be worked towards, bought or found. Though they see, they cannot see everything and while they can hear, they cannot hear enough to comprehend

Others, like seed sown on good soil, hear the word, accept it, and produce a crop—some thirty, some sixty, some a hundred times what was sown."

Now we are talking, seed sown on fertile soil. Such people have been gifted with Faith enough to hear the truth and accept it. Their Spiritual eyes and ears have been fully opened. How can they NOT produce good fruit?

Do you see what I see? Father has given everyone of His children a measure of Faith according to his will/plan.

Rom 12:3 [Darby]
3 For I say, through the grace which has been given to me, to every one that is among you, not to have high thoughts above what he should think; but to think so as to be wise, as God has dealt to each a measure of faith.

Eph 2:8, 9
For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.

Yet there is more to it that Faith alone. Jesus sent the Counselor (Spirit) for those that have eyes (spiritual) to see and ears (spiritual) to hear.

Jesus: Then he turned to his disciples and said privately, "Blessed are the eyes that see what you see. Luk 10:23

Did you notice that Jesus blessed the Spiritual EYES and the EARS and not the disciples themselves?

Jesus made certain that his disciples understood that the difference between FAITH and Spiritual Insight.  Saying:  "For truly I tell you, many prophets and righteous people longed to see what you see but did not see it, and to hear what you hear but did not hear it." Mat 13:17

Such wise men and women of old LONGED to see what we see and hear what we hear but could not. Can anyone deny the blessed gift of Spiritual Eyes and Ears? Perhaps the greatest gift of all. I say this in all earnest, as there are some who believe that those without Fathers Gift of FAITH and Spiritual Eyes and Ears are DEAD. Well Jesus died for sins of the World, so I guess they cannot be dead to sin as Jesus without a doubt failed. This is something that can be heard in churches all over the world.

Oh, but they will say that though Jesus paid off their debt of sin, they must accept it. They must turn their life over to Jesus.

How? Did we not just learn that Father gifts Faith and Spiritual Insight to those He wills and each of His children can only see and hear what we are given. If some are BLIND and Deaf to Jesus, how can these poor ignorant people be blamed? Can a wheat seed be blamed for not growing on a path or rocky ground. Like wise a wheat field choked by thorns cannot be the fault of the Seed.

Who would blame the seed, certainly not the ones who blame the people who are "like" the seed. I feel such compassion for such as these. They try their very best, but being deaf and blind is not easy. What quality of spiritual life can they have when they have no concept of the notion? Behind every rough exterior or curse word is a child of God so very lost and so very alone. Such as these are not DEAD, they are just deaf and blind to the real life. The new life of being reborn in Spirit.

What have we done that we can boast or feel as if we are any better than any other?

Jesus even made sure we knew who was responsible for all we are:

"No one can come to me unless the Father who sent me draws them, and I will raise them up at the last day. (Jhn 6:44)

and

"I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me. (Jhn 14:6)

Just to repeat the words of Paul:  For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— not by works, so that no one can boast.  (Eph 2:8, 9)


So who is indeed the Farmer? Each of us!

Paul knew that he was not RESPONSIBLE for anything but planting the Seed of Truth. Father is one that makes the seed grow.

I planted the seed, Apollos watered it, but God has been making it grow. So neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but only God, who makes things grow.  (1Cr 3:6, 7)

Just a side not on the Fruits of the Spirit. Every Fruit produces a SEED, these are the Seeds that are  sown.   :dsunny:

Thank you Father for all that I now see and now hear. I haven't forgotten your LOVE  :HeartThrob:

Love Julie  :girlheart:

[Lazarus Short]

Julie, I have noticed for many years that some people have the ability to see what they are looking at, while others do not.  On some level, some are blind, even though their eyesight is fine.  These things hide a mystery, like a photo you cannot figure out.  What is it?  Sometimes the mind cannot put it together right away, so you are effectively blind.  However, once you pick up clues and context, and recognize what the photo is of, you have that magical moment of recognition, and then you just can't go back to your former bafflement.

In the same way, I notice that when I ask a question, I usually get back an answer which is related to what I asked, but does not answer my question.  Then, if I say, "...but that doesn't answer my question," I get an expression of surprise.  Am I saying that I am superior?  Not at all, for I have missed the import of what others were saying soooooo much, that people used to call me "Dense" instead of my real name, Dennis.  Funny!  One of my sisters-in-law actually used to say to me, "Earth to Dennis..."

We are all seed sown by God (the real Farmer), and our circumstances are NOT our fate, though many seem to think that only the seed falling on the fertile ground represents the saved.  Do the seeds falling on the stones, or among thorns, or gobbled by bids go to hell?  No!  NO!  NO!

Jesus was making a parable to teach a lesson, and it was not salvation (salvation is a given).  It was more along the lines of Him making our lives less than perfect, so that He could have mercy on all.  Even the seed falling on fertile ground needs the help of the Farmer.

[JulieTang84]

Lazarus wrote:

Jesus was making a parable to teach a lesson, and it was not salvation (salvation is a given).  It was more along the lines of Him making our lives less than perfect, so that He could have mercy on all.  Even the seed falling on fertile ground needs the help of the Farmer.

I love all that you wrote Dennis, if I may call you that. I bolded what you said about Jesus having mercy on all. I believe to that it was to demonstrate to each of us that we are in fact no different than any other but for the grace and love of Father. Self Righteous Fools are we if we even look down on anyone. Not a single person is responsible who they are or the faith they possess.


Life is like a game of poker. One can only play the cards they are dealt. Sure, one may play the cards better than another, but the cards are the same. This is the difference between Responsibility and Accountability. We will all give account for how we have played "our cards."


Love is Everything!!!!




Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Oh, but they will say that though Jesus paid off their debt of sin, they must accept it. They must turn their life over to Jesus.

How? Did we not just learn that Father gifts Faith and Spiritual Insight to those He wills and each of His children can only see and hear what we are given. If some are BLIND and Deaf to Jesus, how can these poor ignorant people be blamed? Can a wheat seed be blamed for not growing on a path or rocky ground. Like wise a wheat field choked by thorns cannot be the fault of the Seed.

Hi Julie,
I agree with very much of what you say concerning the hardening of hearts and the sovereignty God has over who comes and who does not. I am not sure who the "they" are in the above quote, but from what I see in the scripture, everyone not only must turn their lives over to Jesus, they all will. Turning one's life over to Christ is the same as walking out of the darkness and into the light.

It's true that God chooses who will do this, but mankind has not been given such perfect knowledge. So, Paul encouraged us to run the race. Why encourage us to do that, if God is sovereign. Peter put it this way: "make your calling and election sure, for if you do these things, you shall not stumble."

Here are the things he wanted us to do:

2 Peter 1
4Whereby are given unto us exceeding great and precious promises: that by these ye might be partakers of the divine nature, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust. 5And beside this, giving all diligence, add to your faith virtue; and to virtue knowledge; 6And to knowledge temperance; and to temperance patience; and to patience godliness; 7And to godliness brotherly kindness; and to brotherly kindness charity. 8For if these things be in you, and abound, they make you that ye shall neither be barren nor unfruitful in the knowledge of our Lord Jesus Christ. 9But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins. 10Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall: 11For so an entrance shall be ministered unto you abundantly into the everlasting kingdom of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ.

Whereas God knows who the elect are, man does not. This creates the necessity to add virtue to faith, and knowledge to virtue, and temperance to knowledge, and patience to temperance, and godliness to patience, and brotherly kindness to godliness and on and on, so that we may make our calling and election sure.

[JulieTang84]

Thanks Seth,

I see the problem that most churches have. They ignore Father and insist that all "must" do as you quoted indirectly from Peter. Clearly, not everyone has been given the tools needed to accomplish this; just as clearly, there are some who have NOT been given the tools ie. Faith, who have by their own virtue have demostrated faith, where faith did not exist. Jesus mentioned this of a gentile who hhad superior faith to that of any one found in the whole of Israel.

Be this as it may, how can we know who has been gifted with faith and who has not. Likewise, can we tell if someone can hear and see even though Father has not opened their ears or eyes?

Not exactly, but we do have several clear signs:

1. If we hear the words but do not see the fruits - No
2. If we hear the words (boasting) and see the fruit - No
3. If we do not hear the words but see the fruit - Possibly, for the fruit never falls far from the tree.

Most certainly, only Father knows the quality of ones heart and most certainly (imo) one who has little, who produces abuddunt fruit of fine quality, will fair better than one who has (or thinks) who produces little.

It is too confusing to try to prejudge. We are to love and help nurture every brother and sister with the knowledge in our hearts that such things produce seeds that Father is waiting on in order to make grow. All Scripture is for the benefit of those with eyes to see and ears to hear. We are to be the planters that will sow the seeds that will change the world. How can they not?

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

They ignore Father and insist that all "must" do as you quoted indirectly from Peter. Clearly, not everyone has been given the tools needed to accomplish this; just as clearly, there are some who have NOT been given the tools ie. Faith, who have by their own virtue have demostrated faith, where faith did not exist.

They must do all those things or, as Peter said, they are blind and will stumble. It's not saying that they are in control. Here's a illustration of what I mean.

For the ship to move forward, the sails MUST go up. But that doesn't mean that the sails are in control of going up. Peter is saying that we must do those things in order not to stumble, but he is not saying God is not in control of it. Since we don't have his perfect knowledge, that is why we run a race, as Paul put it.

It starts with faith, and everything is added to faith.

Be this as it may, how can we know who has been gifted with faith and who has not.

1 John 4
1Beloved, do not believe every spirit, but test the spirits to see whether they are from God, because many false prophets have gone out into the world. 2By this you know the Spirit of God: every spirit that confesses that Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God; 3and every spirit that does not confess Jesus is not from God; this is the spirit of the antichrist, of which you have heard that it is coming, and now it is already in the world. 4You are from God, little children, and have overcome them; because greater is He who is in you than he who is in the world. 5They are from the world; therefore they speak as from the world, and the world listens to them. 6We are from God; he who knows God listens to us; he who is not from God does not listen to us. By this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

He who knows God confesses Jesus Christ and listens to the Apostles and by this we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error. I know the world doesn't like to hear that, and prefers an "I'm ok, you're ok" approach, but that is not the Gospel.

It's not just about producing fruit. The Bible is clear on this: our OWN righteousness is as dirty rags. Not our own wickedness, no our own RIGHTEOUSNESS is as dirty rags. That's the good stuff we do without Christ performing it within, making it HIS righteousness so that no man may boast.

Whoever is from God confesses Christ and listens to the Apostles, and that is how we know the spirit of truth and the spirit of error.

1 John 3
22 And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23 And this is his commandment (sounds serious), That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.

Have I ever said anything contrary to that?

[sheila]

 :thumbsup:    my sentiments exactly........in regard to the accountability..we have before Him

of the 'cards' we have been dealt....of those who have received the 'gift'...in this realm.

   those who have been given much..much is expected...and...those who did not know..receiving

less stripes then those who knew better.

   I found out as a child..that other children could get by with things that I couldn't... Anytime I

  'joined' them..in their escapades...I would be called to account....whipped,sent to bed..all

the time hearing them playing outside in the street.  The childish cry 'not fair!" would  echo

through my mind.[throwing rocks!]

   they know not what they do......... like .a three year old and a 12 year old.ou don't expect the

same  'accountability" of them..

    my severely disabled bi-polar grand-child...recently released from a long stay in a mental hospital

  wasn't acting normal.  A gentleman was disturbed by her erratic behaviour..and spoke to me

about it.  I told him,your'e going to be disappointed if you expect 'normal' behaviour.


   your'e expectations are like you telling someone with a severly afflicted mnogoloid child.....

  that the child should be making the honour roll at school.

   God/Love does not place on someone what he is unable to bear....Paul  used that very

argument when the 'circumcized group' wanted to put the gentiles under the yoke of the law.

  when the saints were overcome...and trampled under the feet of the dragon...they were given

a little help. the yoke was light...forgiveness for failings..help/assistance to do

better/encouragement in doing good...assurance of being loved...the knowledge that our

performance,or lack of it,made no difference to the fact that we were and are loved.

  to hearten His children and strengthen them,to comfort them in their failures..and make them

joyful in their successes.  To build them up to continue in doing what is 'good' and 'right'

  to chastise them when they head off in the wrong direction.

  How Blessed we are..to have Him and His love....there are so many who do not realize  this......

and they deserve compassion.

   He said...'I will not always find fault  for then even the spirit[love] would fail .

    [and we ALL know...love never fails....we know what love does...it does Not keep account

of the injury]  This world received the love of God in His son....God was not keeping account of

the injury...and it was said ' God is Not counting their tresspasses against them"

  So,since ALL men shall be raised up in the image of Christ,each in his own order.................

there is a place for Love to intercede...and a not counting there tresspasses against them...

...and the receiving of such in......is life from the dead.


   For Love is a strong as death..........

[Seth]

Some thoughts on judgment vs counting men's sins against them.


John 3
16"For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish (apollumi - be lost), but have eternal life (the Life of the age). 17"For God did not send the Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world might be saved through Him. 18"He who believes in Him is not judged; he who does not believe has been judged already, because he has not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God. 19"THIS IS THE JUDGMENT (krisis), that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20"For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed. 21"But he who practices the truth comes to the Light, so that his deeds may be manifested as having been wrought in God."

The judgment is NOT in God counting men's sins against them. He counted their sins against them through the Law. Man was already in judgment from before God brought the Law and the  Prophets. He only did that so that they would see that they were sinners that they were already in darkness, which is their judgment "to receive in themselves the due recompense for their error" (Romans 1).

Christ came so that "whosoever believeth on him" shall not continue in the darkness and that their deeds will be manifested has having been worked in God. That's love.

[sheila]

well.......the commandments are for those who do have the spirit..it is what those who do

have the spirit should be doing...not to condemn those that don't have the spirit as of yet....

  add to virtue knowledge..ok..do we know that all men shall be saved each in his order?

then what should be our attitude but pateince with them and with Father for His time of

raising them up..or should we be impateint..and turn to beating with the rod..like the wicked

servant..who say's my Master is delaying..become impateint and cause harm[a little evil spoils

much good]...or say we have the knowledge that all men as yet do not have the spirit[not their

time] what is our attitide..pateince..forgive them Lord they know not what they do.....

  Faith in those promises of the salvation of God for All men........virtue..the acting accordance

of this knowledge...how should we treat all men now..knowing this...should we not exercize

pateince..as does God as He waits on His harvest..exercize self-cntrol in our dealings with them

  just as God puts His wrath aside...bless those who curse you..just as Father does to those who

are in the corrupt image as yet?  will we not say to those called 'not my people" you are the

sons of the living ?"  Should we have charity to[Love] only those who love us? Is that the

image of the incorruptible one?

   Should not those that are first[to receive the Holy spirit] be the servant of ALL?  Are they not

called to such?  Is not the cry of the Victorious gospel ALL MEN ARE SAVED...not the same as

in the place were it was said 'NOT MY PEOPLE" ye shall be called the sons of the Living God!

Prodigal children need to hear this!!!  while they are yet a long way off they need to be met

   they need to be run too..embraced.......elder sons have an attitude of not joing in to the

music and dancing and feast..offended at the 'actions' of the prodigal...he has coveted and waited

for a feast by his Father held in honour of him..and now his brother who wasted all his

means of living on harlots is honoured!!!  WHERE IS THE BROTHERLY LOVE IN THAT ATTITUDE


  I am afraid this is the attitude that the elect/those with the spirit now..could erronously have

  He givve us this parable/example..to show us what attitude we shouldhave.

[Seth]

well.......the commandments are for those who do have the spirit..it is what those who do

have the spirit should be doing...not to condemn those that don't have the spirit as of yet....

  add to virtue knowledge..ok..do we know that all men shall be saved each in his order?

then what should be our attitude but pateince with them and with Father for His time of

raising them up..or should we be impateint..and turn to beating with the rod..like the wicked

servant..who say's my Master is delaying..become impateint and cause harm[a little evil spoils

I am honestly not sure what patience or impatience has to do with this issue. The truth can be spoken in patience.

Should not those that are first[to receive the Holy spirit] be the servant of ALL?  Are they not

called to such?  Is not the cry of the Victorious gospel ALL MEN ARE SAVED...not the same as

Yes, and the servitude is to tell the truth. Those who work wickedness, including unbelief are in a lake of fire, one that has been burning since Adam brought sin into the world and death by sin.

NOT all men are saved from that, the Bible is demonstrably clear on it. God is calling all men everywhere to repent, believe in the Son, listen to the Apostles and receive salvation from the destruction that is in not knowing the truth.

for a feast by his Father held in honour of him..and now his brother who wasted all his

means of living on harlots is honoured!!!  WHERE IS THE BROTHERLY LOVE IN THAT ATTITUDE

But Sheila, let's not overgeneralize the Prodigal Son parable. The feast held in honor of that son was created AFTER the son remembered his father, and returned in humility to ask for a place back by his father's side. In other words, he first repented. THAT is why he was honored.

The question raised in the OP is, do they need to accept Christ? Yes they do. They need to repent. We all do.

THAT is the Gospel message that the Sons of God are told to bring to the world. It can be done in patience and love. God does not simply accept people as they are. He CHANGES them from one thing to another.

[sheila]

    it was when the prodigal come to be in want... death of the rebellious image..die in

  his sins[error] of leaving Him that has abundant life...it was at that time...that 'he remembered

  his Father"[seed planted in mind and heart/repentance given/faith given...and the spirit of that

young man 'returned' unto the Father........

  was not all that young man's 'works' consumed? all his means of living.....that is how it is

for all God's prodigal's[in Adam/corrupt image]  saved through fire

   I had to rejoice..my son was dead..and now is alive!  EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW..EVERY TONGUE

CONFESS.

[jabcat]

all "must" do as you quoted indirectly from Peter. Clearly, not everyone has been given the tools needed to accomplish this;

Yes, they must, I believe is what the scriptures teach. Every knee must bow and every tongue confess Jesus.  The core message is Jesus.  THAT'S the image of the Father, and, the requirement.  We are either given the gift of faith to believe/trust in Him either now, or in the next age.  But until they/we do, we're still lost in our trespasses and sins.

Love is Everything!!!!

I don't believe that's an accurate statement.  We're supposed to love, WHILE we speak the TRUTH.

[JulieTang84]

They ignore Father and insist that all "must" do as you quoted indirectly from Peter. Clearly, not everyone has been given the tools needed to accomplish this; just as clearly, there are some who have NOT been given the tools ie. Faith, who have by their own virtue have demostrated faith, where faith did not exist.

They must do all those things or, as Peter said, they are blind and will stumble. It's not saying that they are in control. Here's a illustration of what I mean.

For the ship to move forward, the sails MUST go up. But that doesn't mean that the sails are in control of going up. Peter is saying that we must do those things in order not to stumble, but he is not saying God is not in control of it. Since we don't have his perfect knowledge, that is why we run a race, as Paul put it.

It starts with faith, and everything is added to faith.

Seth, I think you forgot that Father is the granter of Faith and Spirit. If anyone has not received faith, or for that matter any amount less that the full measure; how "can" they do these things? Yes, they are blind as spoken in the originals posts  Scripture reference.

Now, when it comes to the Spiritually Enlightened who have been given a satisfactory amount of Faith; how can they not do these things? It is not a point of "MUST" as in: You MUST eat your dinner before you can go play. Rather, the MUST is less of a requirement than something that MUST occur, simply because it cannot, not.

The church tries to make this a requirement, and many try to live by their expectations. This is the difference between trying to earn redemption rather than trusting in it. By no means am I saying that one need never sow seeds of Love, Peace, Understanding, etc. It is just that having been re-born into the new life, these fruits come natural. I simply could not be the lost and confused person in search of I knew not what. Those days are gone and I am so eternally grateful for the love that Father has shown me. Sowing seeds is as now as natural as breathing; how can I not breathe?

Gosh, I hope I am not sounding like I am better than anyone, because I am most certainly not. In fact I have mentioned to Father many times that having been the benefactor of his Love and Spirit and the Peace that it brings, that He may most certainly take it from me and give it to one who needs it more. Because, how can I with any comfort, see a sister or a brother, lost and wandering in the dark and not wish them even more than I have. Isn't this what Love is all about? Jesus gave his life up for everyone and had Faith that it would be restored. It was and we all are saved. Why no LOVE everyone 24/7.

Love Julie :HeartThrob: 

[JulieTang84]

all "must" do as you quoted indirectly from Peter. Clearly, not everyone has been given the tools needed to accomplish this;

Yes, they must according to the scriptures.  And until they/we do, we're still lost in our trespasses and sins.

Love is Everything!!!!

No Julie, I don't believe that's an accurate statement.  We're supposed to love, WHILE we speak the TRUTH.

Sorry James I must digress. ALL CANNOT do what Peter said because the BLIND cannot SEE and the DEAF cannot HEAR. Father does not impose such requirements on them. Why should we? DO you not think Peter was talking to the "converted?"

Father has made it clear that those whom have been given little, little shall be expected. Peter knew this and would not expect something that Father does not. I cannot expect a blind person to drive a car or a deaf person to hear my favorite song. These people whom we should have such compassion for, just do not have the gifts that we were graciously give by Father.[size=78%]Father is LOVE, is He not everything? We are his Children, were we not created in LOVE. Sorry James, Love is EVERYTHING and all else falls beneath it. Oh, the Spirit of Truth is the Spirit of Love.[/size]

Father told me (I actually heard his voice) say: "Don't Forget Love" and when I asked back: "To Love, Feel Love, Give Love" Father responded back with: "No! Don't Forget Love. "

So, Love is Everything, everything we need.

Love Julie   :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

Seth, I think you forgot that Father is the granter of Faith and Spirit. If anyone has not received faith, or for that matter any amount less that the full measure; how "can" they do these things? Yes, they are blind as spoken in the originals posts  Scripture reference.

How have I forgotten anything? I already said it is all of God. But what God gives is faith in the Son so that they may be saved from the judgment that is the result of their darkness in evil works.

Now, when it comes to the Spiritually Enlightened who have been given a satisfactory amount of Faith; how can they not do these things? It is not a point of "MUST" as in: You MUST eat your dinner before you can go play. Rather, the MUST is less of a requirement than something that MUST occur, simply because it cannot, not.

That's what I said. Something that must occur. That was the point of my metaphor. The sails MUST go up before the ship can go. But that does not mean the sails have control in themselves. It's GOD who gives man the faith, and by that faith he saves them from sin and transgressions which they were formerly in servitude.

Because, how can I with any comfort, see a sister or a brother, lost and wandering in the dark and not wish them even more than I have. Isn't this what Love is all about? Jesus gave his life up for everyone and had Faith that it would be restored. It was and we all are saved. Why no LOVE everyone 24/7.

The way I see it, it's not just about "wishing." It's also about telling.

Acts 17
29Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device. 30And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent: 31Because he hath appointed a day, in the which he will judge the world in righteousness by that man whom he hath ordained; whereof he hath given assurance unto all men, in that he hath raised him from the dead.

Peter did not rest on the idea that all will eventually be saved because he, like Paul would rather us judge ourselves than be condemned (judged-down) with the world. So said "God is calling all men everywhere to repent."

This is why we see the image of New Jerusalem in Revelation 22 and the Spirit and the Bride say: "Come all ye that are athirst and drink freely."

Romans 10
11As Scripture says, "Anyone who believes in him will never be put to shame."e 12For there is no difference between Jew and Gentile—the same Lord is Lord of all and richly blesses all who call on him, 13for, "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."f

14How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? 15And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

So, Love is Everything, everything we need.

Calling all men everywhere to repent and place their faith in Jesus Christ is to love them.

[JulieTang84]

:thumbsup:    my sentiments exactly........in regard to the accountability..we have before Him

of the 'cards' we have been dealt....of those who have received the 'gift'...in this realm.

   those who have been given much..much is expected...and...those who did not know..receiving

less stripes then those who knew better.

   I found out as a child..that other children could get by with things that I couldn't... Anytime I

  'joined' them..in their escapades...I would be called to account....whipped,sent to bed..all

the time hearing them playing outside in the street.  The childish cry 'not fair!" would  echo

through my mind.[throwing rocks!]

   they know not what they do......... like .a three year old and a 12 year old.ou don't expect the

same  'accountability" of them..

    my severely disabled bi-polar grand-child...recently released from a long stay in a mental hospital

  wasn't acting normal.  A gentleman was disturbed by her erratic behaviour..and spoke to me

about it.  I told him,your'e going to be disappointed if you expect 'normal' behaviour.


   your'e expectations are like you telling someone with a severly afflicted mnogoloid child.....

  that the child should be making the honour roll at school.

   God/Love does not place on someone what he is unable to bear....Paul  used that very

argument when the 'circumcized group' wanted to put the gentiles under the yoke of the law.

  when the saints were overcome...and trampled under the feet of the dragon...they were given

a little help. the yoke was light...forgiveness for failings..help/assistance to do

better/encouragement in doing good...assurance of being loved...the knowledge that our

performance,or lack of it,made no difference to the fact that we were and are loved.

  to hearten His children and strengthen them,to comfort them in their failures..and make them

joyful in their successes.  To build them up to continue in doing what is 'good' and 'right'

  to chastise them when they head off in the wrong direction.

  How Blessed we are..to have Him and His love....there are so many who do not realize  this......

and they deserve compassion.

   He said...'I will not always find fault  for then even the spirit[love] would fail .

    [and we ALL know...love never fails....we know what love does...it does Not keep account

of the injury]  This world received the love of God in His son....God was not keeping account of

the injury...and it was said ' God is Not counting their tresspasses against them"

  So,since ALL men shall be raised up in the image of Christ,each in his own order.................

there is a place for Love to intercede...and a not counting there tresspasses against them...

...and the receiving of such in......is life from the dead.


   For Love is a strong as death..........

Sheila, this is beautiful so very, very beautiful.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Seth, I see we mostly agree but have a different set of words.


Where I say "wish" you sound as if I am speaking of fairytales. No Sir.'


Wish is a metaphor for pleading with Father that all the Love that I have, all the Joy, Peace and whatever else is precious be granted to them, even at my loss.


I think you were splitting hair brother  :girlheart:


Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[Seth]

No Julie, I was not splitting hairs. You made no reference to a metaphor.

Nevertheless, pleading with the Father is not the same as telling the people. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Paul isn't just telling them, plead with the father. He saying, go be sent!. Bring the good news that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

[Seth]

Titus 3
10For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: 11Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. 12One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. 13This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply (here's evidence of love:), that they may be sound in the faith;

Plead with the father, only? Nope. Rebuke them sharply. Here's the loving part: that they may be sound in the faith. Pretty loving, huh?

[JulieTang84]

No Julie, I was not splitting hairs. You made no reference to a metaphor.

Nevertheless, pleading with the Father is not the same as telling the people. How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

Paul isn't just telling them, plead with the father. He saying, go be sent!. Bring the good news that all who call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved.

Okay Seth,

I will play your game. You see our of professional courtesy if one does not FULLY AND COMPLETELY know for certain the intent, THEY ASK! Only a fool would seek to assume that they KNOW what was meant by the use or misuse of a single word. The metaphor was the word and the entire discussion was anything but "wishing."

May I ask why you are so seemingly combative?   

Seth, have you even grasp the message behind this entire thread??  :dontknow:

How can the "HEAR" if they have been Spiritually deafened by Father? Father deafened them for a reason, not that we should waste Fathers precious truth on deaf ears. Jesus said it himself, do not give pearls to pigs. Any seed sown MUST be from the Spirit, and prayers for the greatest good in the Spirit of LOVE to Father MUST, along with the sown seeds of Love, Patience, Compassion, Long Suffering, etc be of greater benefit than words no matter how true, falling on deaf ears.

How beautiful are feet of those who sow the seeds of the fruit of Spirit where ever they go.  :dsunny:

Words are a poor substitute for understanding when one is blind and cannot read them and deaf so they go unheard. The Good News is the Spirit of TRUTH, given by the fruits it produces.

How can they hear, without someone preaching? Through SPIRIT dear Seth, through Spirit. We sow, Father makes grow. It is not our responsibility, to bring anyone to Jesus. Father does this. Jesus, like wise brings whom He choses to Father. No one comes to either unless the other draws them. We were told to Worship in Spirit, to LOVE everyone as ourself and spread the fruit of Spirit everywhere.

If Father wants someone to "hear" or "see" they will and they will see more than and hear more than mere words. They will see and hear living examples of Truth, of Father Living and moving through each one of "us."

You hear from Paul what you want and you hear from me what you want.

Shame on me  if all that I have said leads you to think: "All Julie thinks that one has to do is plead to Father!"

I have spoken nothing but spreading the Fruits of the Spirit and sowing the seeds of the Spiritual Fruit.

I pray that you can find reason to find common ground before assuming anything!!!!!

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Rebuke sharply those who wish to supersede the Word of Father. 

[Seth]

I will play your game. You see our of professional courtesy if one does not FULLY AND COMPLETELY know for certain the intent, THEY ASK! Only a fool would seek to assume that they KNOW what was meant by the use or misuse of a single word. The metaphor was the word and the entire discussion was anything but "wishing."

Julie, if you use a word that has a meaning, it's up to you to clear it up if you mean something different (ie a metaphor). You did clarify but it only validated "wishing" and not telling. I responded by saying that if wishing means "pleading to the Father" that's still not "telling the people." What I am saying is that wishing is not the calling.

May I ask why you are so seemingly combative? 

That's probably in the eye of the beholder. I am sorry if I seem combative.

How can the "HEAR" if they have been Spiritually deafened by Father? Father deafened them for a reason, not that we should waste Fathers precious truth on deaf ears.

That's the crux of the thread, and my response is this: That's not our judgment to make. We are called to be SENT, to bring the good news on beautiful feet, so that those who DO hear will call upon the name of the Lord and be saved. Whoever will hear with hear, and whoever will not hear will not.

Our call is not to judge or assume whose ears will be open but to be sent. Gary Amirault doesn't make the assumption of who will or will not hear. He set up his website so that everyone could see regardless, and leaves the ear opening to God.

How beautiful are feet of those who sow the seeds of the fruit of Spirit where ever they go.

You are literally changing the words of the scripture. Why are you doing that? It's does not say "how beautiful are the feet of those who sow seeds of the fruit of the Spirit" It literally says:

"Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved." How, then, can they call on the one they have not believed in? And how can they believe in the one of whom they have not heard? And how can they hear without someone preaching to them? And how can anyone preach unless they are sent? As it is written: "How beautiful are the feet of those who bring good news!"

The scripture does not need modification.

Words are a poor substitute for understanding when one is blind and cannot read them and deaf so they go unheard.

Words are not a poor substitute, they are literally the very manner that God has ordained to spread the Gospel.

1 Cor 1:21
For after that, in the wisdom of God, the world by wisdom knew not God, it pleased God by the foolishness of preaching, to save them that believe.

How can they hear, without someone preaching? Through SPIRIT dear Seth, through Spirit.

You're just changing what the scripture literally says to suit your own point.

[ed]

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable will of God.

There is work involved in hearing and seeing.  It is not all just a gift.  Ask and you shall receive.  I must admit sometimes it takes a lot of asking before we see.  I've asked and years later received the answer that I sought.  Just being able to see that I had asked years ago and finally received, was a gift. 

Hearing and seeing is a good topic.  Thanks for posting this.

[JulieTang84]

How sad it is Seth. I did not change the Scriptures. Neither did I place Book, Chapter and Verse along side what I said. I CLEARLY spoke what was in my heart and I gave no reference.

You also seek to imply that I was JUDGING. Really, how many times have you questioned me when I say, I don't care who has or has not received the Spirit of Truth. I love them just the same anyway. I am through with judging.

You sound as if you are denying the Spirit of TRUTH and LOVE. That sowing the FRUITS of SPIRIT and allowing Father to make grow on HIS TERMS is beneath you. That some how "telling" someone the truth is more important. Really? Is this how you came to the truth. Did some say something and you "got it" or was it Father who in HIs time lead you where you now. Father is the GIVER of LIGHT. Not you, me or any one else. All we are required to do is sow the seeds of Love and Spirit and TRUTH.

How would you teach a DEAF and Blind person Seth, through the spoken or written Word, or with Love, Joy, Forbearance, Kindness, Patience, Goodness, Faithfulness, Gentleness and Self Control. Which do you think would bring the greatest benefits? Words or the Fruit of the Spirit?

You accuse me of changing the Scriptures to suit my needs. No Sir, you seem to think I am but a foolish child and persist in treating me as such. Do you not understand what the Scriptures say?

2Cr 3:3
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry, written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God, not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

2Cr 3:6
He has made us competent as ministers of a new covenant—not of the letter but of the Spirit; for the letter kills, but the Spirit gives life.

Seth, if Father has blinded you from seeing this, I judge you not. But please do not say that I am changing Scripture to suit my needs. That is simply a lie.

The Letter from Christ is written with the Spirit of Father on the Tablet of My Heart. I pray that it is written on your heart also. For without it, one cannot claim to be a minister of the NEW COVENANT but rather of the LAW, which KILS.

Love Julie  :HeartThrob:

[JulieTang84]

Be not conformed to this world, but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable will of God.

There is work involved in hearing and seeing.  It is not all just a gift.  Ask and you shall receive.  I must admit sometimes it takes a lot of asking before we see.  I've asked and years later received the answer that I sought.  Just being able to see that I had asked years ago and finally received, was a gift. 

Hearing and seeing is a good topic.  Thanks for posting this.

Thank you Ed  :dsunny:




Love Julie  :HeartThrob: