Tentmaker Forum

The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

He's our Saviour for our spirit, soul, body, finances, social lives, the Creation around us, the nations, the rest of world history, and our priorities.  He's firmly committed to keeping all of the above from perishing and to give each area life and that more abundantly!  Salvation is the conformity of absolutely everything in our lives and everything we know and don't know anything about to Himself.  Not a single detail will be left out if we'll walk out the Written Word by faith.

so as believers in THIS life, we are not saved from anything in the NEXT life(judgment day...hell...lake of fire...blablabla)? were just saved from the "bad things" of this life

in other words...well face just as much "judgment" and lake of fire pain/torment as everyone else? what?

Im not sure how that makes sense...

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.


Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Jer 23:40  And I will bring an everlasting reproach upon you, and a perpetual shame, which shall not be forgotten.


Psa 44:7  But thou hast saved us from our enemies, and hast put them to shame that hated us.

Psa 83:17  Let them be confounded and troubled for ever; yea, let them be put to shame, and perish:

Psa 109:29  Let mine adversaries be clothed with shame, and let them cover themselves with their own confusion, as with a mantle.

Rom 9:33  As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

1Jn 2:28  And now, little children, abide in him; that, when he shall appear, we may have confidence, and not be ashamed before him at his coming.

Rev 3:18  I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.

Salvation from the sin.
We are born sinners, but we do not truly realize that,
even though some say they are sinners superficially through learning at the Church.

Jesus is the Saviour.
However, Jesus is hidden to the eyes of men until one realizes himself as sinner.
When a man realizes that, he has been leading his life without God, the sinner,
and as a result, he encountered total emptiness of his life,
then he might repent from the bottom of his heart,
saying like this as a prodigal son,
"I have sinned in front of God, I want to go back to thee, God!"

Then God will send him Jesus, the Saviour.
In other words, only this time he will be able to see true Jesus.
Jesus will save him working for some years,
and at last by giving him Holy Spirit to be one with him.

Once he became one with God by Holy Spirit, all his life will be with God. 
In him the Christ, God, will live.
He now is saved from the sin which is the separation from God.
He became sinless.

Many people here push forward the salvation in the future, i.e., afterlife.
However, Jesus is the Saviour now here in this life, not afterlife.

As I said, true Jesus is hidden to the eyes of non-repented people.
Jesus that they are discussing now is not true Jesus who is to save them in this life.
No wonder, they are talking about the salvation of afterlife, which is too late.

God bless.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 19, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

We are saved from sin and the wages of sin, which is death.  We are saved from our carnal self.

Are all saved right now?  I don't think so.

Are any saved right now?  This is where the debate is - and in a certain sense again I don't think so.

But from God's point of view we all will be saved.  From our point of view its a question of when will that happen.

You mentioned judgment - everyone will have to go through judgment.  Again the question is when.  Some go through judgment now in this life.  Others will get their judgment at the Great White Throne.  Everyone will be judged and chastened and scourged.  And when we are judged/chastened/scourged, we learn.  We learn how to be good - we learn how to be righteous.

Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
       When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

See what that is saying?  God's judgment cause people to learn righteousness!  That is a good thing, because when one finally knows what righteousness is, they will be righteous, and they will be saved.

God uses judgment to save us, to save everyone!  Believers get their judgment (trial by fire) in this life.  Non-believers will become believers when they get their judgment (lake of fire) in the next life.

Its the same plan for everyone just on different time scales.  God saves everyone the same way!  Through fire, through judgment, through Christ - everyone comes to God the same way.  And when complete we will then all be saved from our sins.

Read Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series.  He gets into all this in great detail.

Peace...

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

1Jn 5:17  All unrighteousness is sin: and there is a sin not unto death.

1Jn 5:18  We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 12:17:29 AM
so as believers in THIS life, we are not saved from anything in the NEXT life(judgment day...hell...lake of fire...blablabla)? were just saved from the "bad things" of this life

in other words...well face just as much "judgment" and lake of fire pain/torment as everyone else? what?

Im not sure how that makes sense...

Read 1 Peter 4:12 where it says we will suffer for being a believer.  That is part of our judgment now in this life.  Everyone will be judged.  If we are a son of God, we will be chastened and scourged so that we will learn.

1 Peter 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?

Judgment begins with the House of God!  That's us, you, me, we, believers in the true Christ, the savior of the world.  We are the first to be judged!

Its part of the process of who we are supposed to become. 

God is creating us to be in His image, and (thank God) He's not finished yet!

Perhaps there is this mindset that judgment is a BAD THING.  NOT TRUE. This is just left-over brainwashing from our eternal torment indoctrination.  Judgment is a good thing and is how humanity will be made into God's image.  Now some of the scourging and chastening we go through may not seem good at the time, but when all is said and done, we will realize this life was just a vapor and was all necessary so we could become what are supposed to become.

Make sense?

There imo, is a fire that tries one's faith,

and a fire that is for those who refuse to live by faith


Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

Mat 7:13  Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:

Rom 3:16  Destruction and misery are in their ways:

Rom 9:22  What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:

1Co 5:5  To deliver such an one unto Satan for the destruction of the flesh, that the spirit may be saved in the day of the Lord Jesus.

Php 3:19  Whose end is destruction, whose God is their belly, and whose glory is in their shame, who mind earthly things.)

Rom 10:11  For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

God is trying to show us a way.
The way of LOVE.

Every single thing in life....
You can operate out of LOVE
or NON-LOVE.

No matter the circumstances.
No matter the outcome.

God is "saving" you, when you operate out of LOVE.

We ALL will have our part in the lake of fire.
HERE in this life.
and in the next.

It is not something to fear.
It is merely God's loving instruction.
God lovingly, (As the good Father that He is) pointing out our mis-steps.

The fire REFINES.
It doesn't destroy.

We should actually look FORWARD to this. not fear it as so many do.

So much negativity and sorrowful things happen because of humans not acting out of love.
It ALL trickles down.
The rain falls on all.
But only for a season.

God is "saving" you from a lot of things....
The times when you operate out of LOVE... you understand the things He is saving you from.

I hope this made sense.

:icon_flower:

Heb 10:27  There remains nothing but a certain awful expectation of judgement, and the fury of a fire which before long will devour the enemies of the truth.

Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



fearful

G5398
φοβερός
phoberos
fob-er-os'
From G5401; frightful, that is, (objectively) formidable: - fearful, terrible.

Sorry Zeek...

I am not fearful.

I am in AWE of God.

But perfect love casts out ALL fear.
God IS PERFECT LOVE.

:icon_flower:  :happy3:  :icon_flower:

He who the son has set free, is free indeed.

I am free from fear when it comes to God, now.
He loves me.
and I have no reason to fear.

peace.

Amen

Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.

Psa 1:2  But his delight is in the law of the LORD; and in his law doth he meditate day and night.

Psa 1:3  And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.




Psa 5:4  For thou art not a God that hath pleasure in wickedness: neither shall evil dwell with thee.

Psa 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psa 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 5:7  But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psa 5:8  Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

Psa 5:9  For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 5:10  Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Psa 5:11  But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Psa 5:12  For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

Quote from: legoman on April 20, 2009, 03:49:04 AM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 19, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

We are saved from sin and the wages of sin, which is death.  We are saved from our carnal self.

Are all saved right now?  I don't think so.

Are any saved right now?  This is where the debate is - and in a certain sense again I don't think so.

But from God's point of view we all will be saved.  From our point of view its a question of when will that happen.

You mentioned judgment - everyone will have to go through judgment.  Again the question is when.  Some go through judgment now in this life.  Others will get their judgment at the Great White Throne.  Everyone will be judged and chastened and scourged.  And when we are judged/chastened/scourged, we learn.  We learn how to be good - we learn how to be righteous.

Isaiah 26:9 My soul yearns for you in the night;
       in the morning my spirit longs for you.
       When your judgments come upon the earth,
       the people of the world learn righteousness.

See what that is saying?  God's judgment cause people to learn righteousness!  That is a good thing, because when one finally knows what righteousness is, they will be righteous, and they will be saved.

God uses judgment to save us, to save everyone!  Believers get their judgment (trial by fire) in this life.  Non-believers will become believers when they get their judgment (lake of fire) in the next life.

Its the same plan for everyone just on different time scales.  God saves everyone the same way!  Through fire, through judgment, through Christ - everyone comes to God the same way.  And when complete we will then all be saved from our sins.

Read Ray Smith's Lake of Fire series.  He gets into all this in great detail.

Peace...

Yep. All must go back to God, but he must prepare us to be received back. Pay now, or pay later.

To the one who fears, to him God will be fearsome and frightening.

To the one who loves, to him God will be endearing and awe-inspiring.

Thus agrees the prophet Isaiah who wrote:

Isa 33:14 The sinners in Zion are afraid.
Trembling has seized the godless ones.
Who among us can live with the devouring fire?
Who among us can live with everlasting burning?

Isa 33:15 He who walks righteously,
and speaks blamelessly;
He who despises the gain of oppressions,
who gestures with his hands, refusing to take a bribe,
who stops his ears from hearing of blood,
and shuts his eyes from looking at evil—

Ron

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 19, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

This is the way I understand this and I could be wrong.

The verse you have above is while Paul is preaching New Covenant teaching. New Covenant requires some rules and regulations. Later on Paul came to see that this wasn't necessary.

I think the answer to the whole thing is KNOWLEDGE, not that I know any thing but the Isarelites thought they had to keep all these Laws in order to be saved. The apostles thought that the Israelites had to do certain things to be saved even after Christ was crucified. Now I believe all these things was in the plan of God BUT if you notice, Paul said "the MYSTERY had been hid from man since before the foundation of the world". What was that Mystery? I believe it was God's intention that all WERE SAVED when he created Adam, without any rules or regulations, man just couldn't see it and some still can't. God brought and is bringing each of us through the wilderness before he shows us the light. What did Christ save us from? I think he saved us from this FLESH.

CHB

I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm new to this. Please have patience with me. Also, please answer very simply, I can be a bit dull sometime.  :winkgrin:

So unbelievers will be judged after they die? I'm assuming this is a temporary punishment. And if this IS the case, what kind of punishment will this be? Or do we not know?

Again, I'm sure these are dumb questions. I don't know anything about universalism but I do know I'm starting to consider it.

Later on, after the mystery was revealed, Paul continued to "warn" and preach obedience, and continued "walking" in faith; so as to not lose one's reward.    

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 2:7  Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Col 3:20  Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Col 3:21  Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Col 3:22  Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Col 3:23  And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Col 3:24  Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Col 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Col 1:9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

QuoteSaved? Saved from what?

saved from literal eternal death for example

some people would't consider eternal death as a punishment, but this is not true at all.

many people fear death, the end of existence, few people even fear it more than hell.

it there would be a hell, even it would be endless, there still could be hope that you might get out one day

but death leaves no hope, there could be no darker darkness than the blackness of ultimate and eternal death, a state of utterly non-being, total annihilation.

this thought is indeed horrible for many, though not for all, it's strange that modern Christianity doesn't consider death something worth to be saved from. It seems they deny death being an enemy, the even deny that someting like death exists when they tell this satanic lie that men has an immortal soul, when they deny death is it clear that Jesus must have came to save people from their invented hell of which the Prophets said no word. Sheol is no infernal netherworld of fiery torment or conscious suffering according to the Bible.

1 Corinthians 15:29-32

Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? And why stand we in jeopardy every hour? I protest by your rejoicing which I have in Christ Jesus our Lord, I die daily. If after the manner of men I have fought with beasts at Ephesus, what advantageth it me, if the dead rise not? let us eat and drink; for to morrow we die.

for me it is obvious that Paul thought if there is no ressurection of the dead, there will be nothing than death after once died, there is not the slighest hint Paul ever thought of as if Jesus hadn't died and rose from the dead they would go to a place of endless woe.

Quote from: ducktapehero on April 20, 2009, 06:43:37 PM
I'm sorry if I sound stupid but I'm new to this. Please have patience with me. Also, please answer very simply, I can be a bit dull sometime.  :winkgrin:

So unbelievers will be judged after they die? I'm assuming this is a temporary punishment. And if this IS the case, what kind of punishment will this be? Or do we not know?

Again, I'm sure these are dumb questions. I don't know anything about universalism but I do know I'm starting to consider it.

Don't worry about dumb questions. You are a long way from out-dumbing my questions  :laughing7:
There are different opinions on this site regarding when the punishment takes places.
But many verses clearly show that Jesus came to save 100% of humanity an succeeds at that task.
That automaticly means punishment (actually 'teaching') can't be endless. Unless you call endless misery saved.

Ermmm, I forgot the advertising for my signature :winkgrin:
The 3 verses in my signature are my favorites. I think they are very powerful. Especially as a group.

I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

It'll never be WillieH or Tony Nungesser, or any of the others that oppose the doctrine of afterlife Hell prior to judgment day, [or even after then in some cases with what some have said around here,] that'll give me any problems with it whatsoever.  What's definitely odd for me is that it'll [consistently] wind up being the preaching of ETers, or those who quietly believe it but aren't rambunctious and poisoning about it, that'll give me the biggest problems with any kind of afterlife punishment whatsoever by any definition that you can think of, under any circumstances, etc.  So, that's one of the reasons I've started digging again full force into Mark 4 and reevaluating everything with that, and strenuously endeavoring to only use the vocabulary of Jesus and the Apostles.  I'll try to find a couple of video links before I post this.  They're around 10 minutes each, but you'll see what I mean on how it'll be the mainstream Church that'll often times make any type of afterlife punishment problematic in their preaching.  And I'm aware of many, many videos from countless speakers like this, but am not finding many of those online and I don't have the software for video editing and am not sure about fooling with that and messing my videos up accidentally, but it'll consistently [or with growing consistency] be clips like this from those that are on television.  This just makes any kind of afterlife punishment for me whatsoever virtually impossible 'cause for me it comes back to "either that's true or it's not" when they say it:

First Video Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lue7bhcK0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emartincisneros%2Etv%2Fportal%2Ephp%3Fsid%3D574a373e6e238db23af79d17e30004cd&feature=player_embedded)

Second Video Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCUby8b1zl4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emartincisneros%2Etv%2Fportal%2Ephp%3Fsid%3D574a373e6e238db23af79d17e30004cd&feature=player_embedded)

Still digging in the Scriptures and in the interpretation of other tongues for further insight, but it may wind up being what I've said a few times afterall, about all of the different fires simply being historical events rather than events where everyone that's ever ever lived is drug into.  Like the Isaiah 30:23-26 twin towers passage not applying to every century that's ever existed and not being anything that ended history as we know it forever (well, not really), but just being a predicted event.  But, Luke 24:47, Acts 17:30-31, Acts 20:21 are still difficult for me to take any different way than what they're simply saying is the Biblical message to the nations.  Similar language further in the New Testament that some would want to argue is only applicable to believers about various issues.  But Colossians 2:6-7 says that as you received Him, that's the same way to receive everything else from Him on an ongoing basis.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 20, 2009, 11:59:43 PM
It'll never be WillieH or Tony Nungesser, or any of the others that oppose the doctrine of afterlife Hell prior to judgment day, [or even after then in some cases with what some have said around here,] that'll give me any problems with it whatsoever.  What's definitely odd for me is that it'll [consistently] wind up being the preaching of ETers, or those who quietly believe it but aren't rambunctious and poisoning about it, that'll give me the biggest problems with any kind of afterlife punishment whatsoever by any definition that you can think of, under any circumstances, etc.  So, that's one of the reasons I've started digging again full force into Mark 4 and reevaluating everything with that, and strenuously endeavoring to only use the vocabulary of Jesus and the Apostles.  I'll try to find a couple of video links before I post this.  They're around 10 minutes each, but you'll see what I mean on how it'll be the mainstream Church that'll often times make any type of afterlife punishment problematic in their preaching.  And I'm aware of many, many videos from countless speakers like this, but am not finding many of those online and I don't have the software for video editing and am not sure about fooling with that and messing my videos up accidentally, but it'll consistently [or with growing consistency] be clips like this from those that are on television.  This just makes any kind of afterlife punishment for me whatsoever virtually impossible 'cause for me it comes back to "either that's true or it's not" when they say it:

First Video Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=10lue7bhcK0&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emartincisneros%2Etv%2Fportal%2Ephp%3Fsid%3D574a373e6e238db23af79d17e30004cd&feature=player_embedded)

Second Video Clip (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=kCUby8b1zl4&eurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Emartincisneros%2Etv%2Fportal%2Ephp%3Fsid%3D574a373e6e238db23af79d17e30004cd&feature=player_embedded)

Still digging in the Scriptures and in the interpretation of other tongues for further insight, but it may wind up being what I've said a few times afterall, about all of the different fires simply being historical events rather than events where everyone that's ever ever lived is drug into.  Like the Isaiah 30:23-26 twin towers passage not applying to every century that's ever existed and not being anything that ended history as we know it forever (well, not really), but just being a predicted event.  But, Luke 24:47, Acts 17:30-31, Acts 20:21 are still difficult for me to take any different way than what they're simply saying is the Biblical message to the nations.  Similar language further in the New Testament that some would want to argue is only applicable to believers about various issues.  But Colossians 2:6-7 says that as you received Him, that's the same way to receive everything else from Him on an ongoing basis.

So, just to clarify; Did I read you right in thinking what you're saying (according to your current understanding) that there is no afterlife punishment for anyone until the resurrection and subsequent judgment? That the only afterlife punishment/ correction is the LOF? (I'm reading that last one into what you've said.)

If so, would this mean that we are not conscious after death until the resurrection?

Quote from: Doc on April 20, 2009, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

Suppose the worst sinner dies and goes to heaven and they're met at the door with either the video being played or a literal time travel event where they're allowed to see what was going on at the Cross, the violent scene fades, and they're returned to Paradise being in front of them and the first one to meet them at the door is Jesus saying "that's why you're here!" and gives 'em a hug.  Think the hardest skeptic removed from the supports of their skepticism in this life and being shown such love as occured at the Cross and meeting the Man, Himself, and seeing all that God's prepared for them in a moment of time as Jesus is coming in for that hug -- is that ax murderer, chain smoker, slaughterhouse worker, prostitute, or anything anyone can think of a believer or an unbeliever? 

Is there shame and a silencing of all that they'd ever said against Him, His Word, His people, His work in the earth?  Is there that moment of UNBELIEVABLE CONDEMNATION of all of their ungodliness in their hearts??  Is there the answering of all of the prayers of their mother in that moment, that might have seemed virtually pointless on the earth?  In that kind of moment, is there the answering of all of the prayers of all of the saints whether Catholic, Protestant, and whomever else for all men everywhere?  Is there anything in that that would take away from St. Paul's comment about godliness genuinely being profitable for this life and that which is to come?  Is there genuinely the frustration of any preacher in heaven that worked themselves to their knees all of their lives, until they had no more tears and in some cases bled and died for preaching Jesus as Lord of all?  Or is there great relief on the part of the preachers there that God's as good as they ever said and more?? 

Is there a single child left not knowing why God's beating their parents, grandparents, etc.?  Is there a single parent there wondering how many more eons it'll take for God to get through to their kids and in great apprehension about how thick their kids are and blaming themselves that if they'd only been more loving, more nurturing, more attentive then they might not have been the block heads that it's taking God 50,000 years to get through to?  Or is God going to miss this opportunity to start wiping away the tears, the pain, the frustration, the exhaustion, and heart sickness?  What does Romans 8 say about "if He didn't withhold His Son...??" and also about God having fulfilled the requirements of the law in the condemnation of the flesh of Jesus Christ?  Condemnation is just sickness, disease, and early painful death according to the Gospel of John chapter 3 and 1Corinthians 11. 

Many of us at these boards have been appauled by some of the quotes from Tertullian, Aquinas, Luther, and others about the saints being gratified in the damnation of the wicked, but how would any kind of punishment extended into the afterlife and/or ages to come not somehow reflect upon Christ's chosen Senators of the Kingdom?  Haven't the saints from the beginning prayed that mankind wouldn't be lead in temptation, but would be delivered from evil?  Aren't there Scriptures in the Old Testament, particularly in the KJV, that refer to God having to punish as evil, such as Him repenting of the evil He was about to bring upon them?  Will the Lord's prayer -- and I mean the real Lord's prayer in John 17 -- ever be answered of all of the world believing when they see the glory given to the Church? 

Doesn't say anything about them believing when they see the horrors heading their way.  If the Mosaic law, which was a dispensation of condemnation, said you weren't to trip a blind person, then are we to understand that the New Testament is saying to broil them alive?  Sometimes the limited duration future punishment sounds a little worse than the ET stuff 'cause we're saying that instead of them being in the oven, God's got a microwave!!  No wonder there's unquenchable thirst!!!!  Just a sampling of some thoughts I've been having for a few months.  Wouldn't mean the Lake of Fire couldn't be pretty close to normal everyday life when suddenly the planet virtually explodes or at least becomes very volcanic in preparation for the New. 

But 2Peter 3 puts such a contrast between Noah's Flood and the flames of the Lake of Fire, to where the Lake of Fire could just be synonymous with the resurrection and it taking much more of God's Heat and a bigger section of the Hem of Jesus' garment to raise the bodies of those that have been the wickedest.  Who then would be the unbelievers of the New Earth?  Future generations of unbelievers if the Revelation 20 resurrection weren't a resurrection to immortality, and then this thing of extra terrestrial life that a lot of folks have kicked around occasionally, perhaps including fallen angels.

Good/ interesting answer.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 21, 2009, 12:44:33 AM

Quote from: Doc on April 20, 2009, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

I do think otherwise.
If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.
He believed another Jesus, that's why sin still remains in him.
If he claims that he is in the process of salvation to be complete,
I bet he will say so still in front of his death.
Thus, his whole life is being deceived without being saved.
 
It is good to have questions, as they will lead us to true Jesus.
But so many times our direction to Jesus is hampered
because we accept non-truth answers.
Maybe we may have to spend more time there.

God bless.

Rom 8:9  But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 19, 2009, 11:34:00 PM
The last few days of reading my book (Hope Beyond Hell) and just thinking in general, and Ive been really confused on what "salvation" really is.

If everyone is already "saved" through Christ...why does Paul bother to mention things like this:

Romans 10:9-10
"That if you confess with your mouth, "Jesus is Lord," and believe in your heart that God raised him from the dead, you will be saved. 10For it is with your heart that you believe and are justified, and it is with your mouth that you confess and are saved"

Saved? Saved from what? Doesnt everyone still have to "face judgment" (2 Corinitians 5:10) anyway? What does confessing and all that "holy spirit", "turning to God" mumbo jumbo redeem us from if were already "redeemed" (from what I still dont really know)

Very insightful question!

You need to think more in terms of saved too, instead of saved from!

Luke 4:43  but he said to them, "I must preach the good news of the kingdom of God to the other towns as well; for I was sent for this purpose."

Here lies your answer! The Kingdom of God! Exactly what did Jesus preach?  OK, let's slow down and focus on the scriptures.

Christian documents demonstrate, beyond any argument, that Jesus preached the gospel of the Kingdom of God not only this, he did not initially say anything about his own death and resurrection (Luke 18:31-34).  This must prove conclusively that the message about the Kingdom contains information other than the death and resurrection of the Savior.

Now don't freak out, just follow the path of Jesus' revelation to us!  

Jesus proclaimed the Gospel of the Kingdom in the company of the 12 Apostles: "Now after this he made his way through towns and villages preaching and proclaiming the good news of the Kingdom of God. With him were the twelve" (Luke 8:1). Later, "he called the twelve together and gave them power and authority over all demons and to cure diseases, and he sent them out to proclaim the Kingdom of God and to heal" (Luke 9:1-2).

At this stage the disciples had no knowledge of the death and resurrection of Jesus.  This is proved by their subsequent reaction to Jesus's announcement of his impending arrests and crucifixion: Luk 18:31  Then He took the twelve aside and said to them, "Behold, we are going up to Jerusalem, and all things which are written through the prophets about the Son of Man will be accomplished. 32 "For He will be handed over to the Gentiles, and will be mocked and mistreated and spit upon, 33 and after they have scourged Him, they will kill Him; and the third day He will rise again." 34 But the disciples understood none of these things, and the meaning of this statement was hidden from them, and they did not comprehend the things that were said. 

Even immediately after the resurrection the disciples still did not understand it. And yet they had been preaching the Gospel of the Kingdom in the company of Jesus. "They did not yet
understand the scriptures that he must rise from the dead" (John 20:9). This was after the death and resurrection of Jesus had occurred.

Now if, as it is commonly said, the Gospel consist of information about the death and resurrection of Jesus only, how is it that both Jesus and the twelve proclaimed the Gospel without reference to the Savior's death and resurrection? The answer is clear.  The Gospel of the kingdom was announced before Jesus died (Mark 1:14, 15; Matt. 4:23; 9:35; Luke 4:43; Luke 8:1,etc.) and, as the book of Acts informs us, after the resurrection (Acts 1:3; 1:6; 8:12; 19:8; 20:25; 28:23, 31). Act 1:3  To these He also presented Himself alive after His suffering, by many convincing proofs, appearing to them over a period of forty days and speaking of the things concerning the kingdom of God.

In Acts, however, we find added to the Gospel about the Kingdom, the new facts about the death and resurrection of Jesus, which had now become history. The result is a Gospel message about the Kingdom of God and the name of Jesus Christ's (Acts 8:12; 28:23, 31). That Kingdom message remains as the primary component of the Gospel.  Jesus' death and resurrection are additional, indispensable subjects for belief.

Acts 1:5-7 also provides a crystal clear testimony against the idea that the Kingdom of God was initiated when Jesus went to sit at the right hand of the Father in heaven.  In Acts 1:5 after Jesus had given a six-week seminar on his favorite subject, the Kingdom (Acts 1:3) the disciples, who had already been preaching the gospel of the Kingdom under Jesus supervision, asked the obvious question.  Hearing that the spirit was to be poured out from heaven, they supposed not unreasonably that the Kingdom of God was going to appear at the same time. They defined the Kingdom has Jesus had taught them. They thought of it as involving the restored tribes of Israel in the land.  "Lord will you yet at this time," they asked, "that you are going to restore the Kingdom to Israel?" (Acts 1:6).

Jesus did not in any way rebuked them for their good question. He simply inform them that the time for the coming of the kingdom would not be known.  The restoration of the Kingdom to Israel is taken for granted.  The time which pass to elapse before the Kingdom comes cannot be known. Note, however, this is central point which settles any question about the Kingdom in relation to the coming of the spirit.  The spirit was to come "in a few days time."  But that Kingdom was to arrive at a time of unknown. This proves obviously that the coming of the spirit at Pentecost is not the same event as the coming of the Kingdom.  :2c:

Pierac

Quote from: Doc on April 20, 2009, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

:cloud9:  :thumbsup:

Quote from: 70sevens on April 21, 2009, 02:27:34 AMIf the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.

Actually, a lot of it is because so few Christians have learned to walk by faith.  If I bring up using the same principles of the Word regarding healing and prosperity on resisting temptation, addictive behaviour, addictive mindsets, and anything else that would be a pressure to the body, mind, and emotions, most of the people around here, and many, many Christians I'd talk to elsewhere, would draw a total blank on what I was even talking about from the Scriptures.  But the same as you can't be moved by what you see or by what you feel on any other ground you've taken with the Scriptures and are being lead by the Holy Spirit through the confession of the Word into victory with Christ Jesus, your High Priest, it's the exact same thing with being transfigured by the renewing of your mind in way too many passages in St. Paul to where we either conclude he as equally knew what he was talking about regarding that as when he'd talk about UR, or, we have to conclude that not much of the Bible can be trusted after all, which leads to the inevitable thing of it having never really happened, which is where many unbelievers are at.  The word there in Romans 12 for transformed in many of the translations is the word for transfiguration.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 21, 2009, 04:10:13 AM

Quote from: 70sevens on April 21, 2009, 02:27:34 AMIf the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.

Actually, a lot of it is because so few Christians have learned to walk by faith.  If I bring up using the same principles of the Word regarding healing and prosperity on resisting temptation, addictive behaviour, addictive mindsets, and anything else that would be a pressure to the body, mind, and emotions, most of the people around here, and many, many Christians I'd talk to elsewhere, would draw a total blank on what I was even talking about from the Scriptures.  But the same as you can't be moved by what you see or by what you feel on any other ground you've taken with the Scriptures and are being lead by the Holy Spirit through the confession of the Word into victory with Christ Jesus, your High Priest, it's the exact same thing with being transfigured by the renewing of your mind in way too many passages in St. Paul to where we either conclude he as equally knew what he was talking about regarding that as when he'd talk about UR, or, we have to conclude that not much of the Bible can be trusted after all, which leads to the inevitable thing of it having never really happened, which is where many unbelievers are at.  The word there in Romans 12 for transformed in many of the translations is the word for transfiguration.

wow! :mshock:


2And be not conformed to this world: but be ye transformed by the renewing of your mind, that ye may prove what is that good, and acceptable, and perfect, will of God.

--Rom 12


"be ye transformed"

G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure,
transform.



Matthew 17:2
And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.

"was transfigured"
G3339
μεταμορφόω
metamorphoō
met-am-or-fo'-o
From G3326 and G3445; to transform (literally or figuratively "metamorphose"): - change, transfigure, transform.

 :cloud9: Yep, we're "metamorphooed" by the washing of the Spirit revealed Word..... :thumbsup:

One of my favorite sharing of the Gospel opportunities is with new agers that'll comment on my having one of the brightest auras they've ever seen.  I've either had it described as intense white or intense white with a pinch of purple, and when I looked up the purple, it's supposedly (according to some, although there's a plethora of opinions on these colors, indicating that nobody really knows what they're talking about) sexual energy.  I never hear about anything described about me but a white aura from guys, among the people that'll be into looking at those kinds of things, but it'll wind up being women, and often attractive ones, that'll comment on the other color being really faintly there and I'll kinda laugh it off to myself if I was honestly busted having a passing thought or if not a thought, then an initial split, fraction of a second eye bug out.  And I'm not saying that that's what that color means. 

Every website says something different, including illnesses that I'm unquestionably redeemed from by the Cross.   Some sources will claim absolute purity about the really bright white aura, while others will say someone's about to die.  That could be an interesting thought with what I posted earlier on this thread about an encounter with Christ.  For those that don't have it right with Him, is a whitening aura proof that they're inching towards Him slapping the new age crap out of their lives, overpowering them with His love, and giving them a future and a hope?  And for those that have it right with Him, is that an indication that they're crucified with Christ, nevertheless the live, yet not them but Christ lives in them?  But, I have been expecting for years and years with all of the expectation my expecter can muster, based on Romans 12, that He'd be seen through me. 

I know a story of one woman that had something wrong with her and she was told by the Lord to go to the mall and someone would be there to pray for her.  She didn't know who, and when she got to the mall the Lord wasn't any more helpful on who than when she was still home.  But she noticed this shaft of light above the people that was leading straight up, yet it was moving and even wandering in and out of stores.  So, she decided to follow it until she discovered it was coming out of one person.  So, she approached them and asked for prayer.  They agreed to pray for her, but wondered why she'd asked them to pray for her.  So, she told them what I just told you about having been told by the Lord to go to the mall and someone would be there to pray for her.  And the person the light was coming from was Jerry Savelle, the leader of an international ministry based in Fort Worth, Texas, and when that light would be wandering in and out of stores, it was 'cause he was following his wife, Carolyn, all over the place.

The short version...(Knowing that God is no repector of persons, that Jesus looked up into the heavens, that there were things to be seen in the heavenlies, in other dimensions in which we exist) I made motions of applying "eye salve" on my eyes as I walked back and forth in my room, claiming the Scripture that spoke of it, admitting I was blind.  If I could get this kind of salve at the apothecary I might try, though I didn't have money; but, I was sure He meant another kind of seeing.  He said none could "see" the Kingdom of God except they were born again.  He didn't say "understand," though there is an eye of understanding.  I asked to see.  In a couple of days he began to open my eyes. 

Remember that all of the colors are God's.  Red (or red-purple, nearest infra-red) is the lowest on the spectrum of visible light.  Red is the longest wavelength visible in the electromagnetic spectrum.  Sin stains our spirits red, literally.  Our mouths are like smudgy, like burned and filthy, covered with messy lipstick.  But it isn't that almost everything we say is red-stained, though it is, it is that it proceeds from the heart to defile us.  The lipstick emerges out of the blossoming red flower in the midst of our heart to stain our lips.  Almost everything everybody says, except speaking in tongues, is defiled.  How refreshing to see cleaness of teeth, white purity of mouth and lips, emerging out into manifest presence as clean spirit.  Almost everything proceeding from people's mouths is spirit.

"...If your sins become like scarlet, as snow shall they be white; It they are red as crimson, as wool shall they become." (Isaiah 1:18, CLV)  Laban means white, milk white, milky...the meaning of colors is in Scripture.  The highest is blue-purple.  Ruling comes from the highest.  Purple is royal.  Blue is heavenly...

Purple is definitely royal, both in the sacred and in the corrupt royalty.  The plethora of meanings attached to colors in our culture is no different, to me, than the confusion of languages at Babel.  I've been very interested at different seasons of my life in the meanings of colors to see if there was any particular meaning associated with seeing a color in a synesthetic way coming from words that aren't specifically the names of the colors.  This universe is sooo skillfully made that every color probably has a meaning in the DNA of the universe when we find it naturally occuring, whether outside, in ourselves, in the animal kingdom, and in the sky at night or through a telescope. 

Different gases are different colors, and there's some contamination of the colors that we'll see even with the best telescopes because of dust particles and other issues from the cosmos coming from broken up rocks or ice crystals reflecting and refracting light in all kinds of ways.  The last time someone saw the color purple, that I'm aware of, in my aura, was in 2004, I believe.  Every other time, before and since, if anybody's said anything, it's wound up being nothing but the brightest white they've described.  And as white can be the symbol of life and death in what I shared above, I'm wondering if purple in the same kind of context with seemingly radiating from us or an animal in nature can be royalty coming out or being diluted by anything that we can't see since we don't see all colors, or most people don't. 

I think that some people, particularly synesthetics might 'cause of difficulties later identifying certain colors they've seen on color charts to write it down for the benefit of others regarding what they heard with which word or which sound or movement.  Some synesthetics see just like Daredevil in the movie that came out a few years ago, just as some blind people do.  Eyesight can cross over into sonar, just as hearing can as some blind people have discovered with being able to imitate the noise of a dolphin and immediately know where things are at around them and where they're going.  A purple light around someone could perhaps be both royalty and ambition, or contamination of colors since it's not a primary color. 

That's why I've always been very glad that when it's been noticed it was subtle and not overpowering in me, at least until I knew specifically what it was.  If someone reported to me this month, with what's been going on in me from the Holy Spirit, that there was quite a bit of purple, then I'd know for certain that it was the dominion and rulership of God flowing full force in me 'cause Colossians 2:5 has been a particularly strong manifestation of the Lord in my life this month.  Because my faith is far enough ahead of the game to not get weighed down by any naysayers, if they show up on this point, I've been believing God for quite a while for a G650, sowing my seed, believing what God's quickened to me from the Word and His Spirit about it, and continuing to patiently, willingly, and joyfully do the will of God as each new door opens. 

A G650 is a type of jet.  In order to be able to fulfill the rest of my calling.  But the Holy Spirit's been so strong on my recently, that I'm genuinely wondering if I'm going to need a plane to get everywhere I need to get to to share the Word, if what's on me keeps progressing and developing and intensifying as it's been doing.  I went somewhere briefly at the start of this month, and had the strongest sense that if I'd simply taken the time to have "prayed through" as it's called in Pentecostal circles that a plane ticket might have been optional.  Pray that God gives me the jet if my suddenly walking in the room out of nowhere would keep you from being able to sleep for the rest of your life wondering what you saw!  John 14:12 belongs to absolutely all of us, and it's the joy that was set before Jesus in Hebrews 12. 

The whole book of Hebrews is about setting aside all that encumbers and running with patience the race set before you until the Christ within you has literally become the master of all things in this world with the Holy Scriptures as your guide and wisdom together with the Holy Spirit that they point you to that Jesus said was Someone just like Himself.  Careful with taking the "here we have no continuing city" out of the context of the rest of the book that says to cast out a few devils and raise a little Hell until all that can be shaken has been shaken and you've become skillful in the Word of righteousness and the obtainer of the inheritance of Abraham, which is what you're running for; they never obtained it so that they wouldn't be made perfect without us, but Jesus is seated for the joy set before Him to finish the faith He's authored in you that's the substance of things you're passionate for from His Word, the EVIDENCE of things not seen.

Something really big is about to happen with the Body of Christ or big segments of it.  The out of body stuff, seeing angels, and other things have been going on in my life since about '91 and with real intensity over the last 3 years.  Not the seeing angels part, but I have a couple of times in this time period.  God is calling all of us to accept the fact that the "all truth" that He promised is contained in the Gospel, and He loves all of us enough to give us all of the power that's in it, but we have to totally sell out to it with all of our hearts, minds, and bodies.  Everything has to be His, not sorta, not ultimately, or whatever. The only way I've ever found to fully surrender is by His Words becoming my Words as it says in Isaiah 55, Isaiah 58, Proverbs 4, John 8, Colossians 3 and in countless other places.  Joshua 1:8 is startlingly pregnant about that if you'll apply it's principles to the New Covenant since Colossians 3, 1John 2, and other places in the New Testament essentially say the same thing, but not necessarily as clearly as Joshua 1:8, or not as clearly for everyone as Joshua 1:8.

God's about to do something sooo big in all of us that have believed the Gospel, that I teeter on using the dispensational, premillenialist's "R" word about it, but I'm not one and am leery of using a word from my past that I can't use without snickering that I ever misconstrued parts of the Gospel to say that.  I'll say what the "R" word is that I'm referring to, lest I just lost a couple of the younger ones among us.  What I'm seeing about to happen with those that really believe the Gospel [and are completely sold out to it] teeters on the "rapture" scenario, though I'm not buying into the "left behind" part in what I see in Scripture.  I believe the whole of the Scriptures, but my interpretation of "end-times" has been dramatically changing in the last few years, first with seeing UR and then transitioning from premillenialism to postmillenialism.

 :cloud9: Amen reFormer and Martin.......three things I wanted to share along that line. I once had a dream/vision and everything on the earth had a red glow. There was nothing that didn't glow red.

In another, when I was in OK, I saw everything as black forms; trees, ect. that were outlined in red, like they had been drawn on nothing but black space. The scriptures He tied in then were wisdom more valuable than rubies (red) and He FRAMED the world with wisdom. I was given to know I had seen the beginning, ie. the frame.

One day I was reading the Word and He told me to picture in my mind an eclipse. I did and I "saw" with the Spirit the moon go behind or below the earth in it's elliptical orbit. Just as it got to the lowest bend in the orbit and was shadowed by the earth in darkness, He spoke, "Yea, though I walk thru the valley of the SHADOW OF DEATH, I will fear no darkness for the Lord is with me."

He gave me to understand that the moon is as the redeemed from the earth (silver is redemption; it appears silver, has no glory of it's own), and the earth, our fleshly selves, fallen nature.

I was so excited, and wanted to make sure I was seeing things from God, I went to the library and got a book on astronomy to make sure what I was seeing was correct. Not only was it correct, but I read something that made me shout for joy. It said that when this eclipse happens, that the color RED (color of the son; His blood) is the only one that refracts and actually bends around the earth to hit the darkened moon. The rest of the colors are absorbed into the earth.

Truly, though we walk thru the valley (lowest part of orbit) of death (to be carnally/fleshly minded is death), I will fear no evil (darkness of flesh overshadowing spirit), for the Lord is with me. Let all creation reveal His glory and His works (and it does), Amen. Blessings...

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

Hi Ninja,

When I say "we are saved from this flesh" what I mean is, we are going to be saved from these fleshly bodies to become immortal.  Jesus died so that we could live like he is living now. Every man in his own order though.

CHB

Quote from: Zeek on April 20, 2009, 06:46:02 PM
Later on, after the mystery was revealed, Paul continued to "warn" and preach obedience, and continued "walking" in faith; so as to not lose one's reward.    

Col 1:28  Whom we preach, warning every man, and teaching every man in all wisdom; that we may present every man perfect in Christ Jesus:

Col 1:29  Whereunto I also labour, striving according to his working, which worketh in me mightily.

Col 2:6  As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

Col 2:7  Rooted and built up in him, and stablished in the faith, as ye have been taught, abounding therein with thanksgiving.

Col 2:8  Beware lest any man spoil you through philosophy and vain deceit, after the tradition of men, after the rudiments of the world, and not after Christ.

Col 2:18  Let no man beguile you of your reward in a voluntary humility and worshipping of angels, intruding into those things which he hath not seen, vainly puffed up by his fleshly mind,

Col 3:1  If ye then be risen with Christ, seek those things which are above, where Christ sitteth on the right hand of God.

Col 3:2  Set your affection on things above, not on things on the earth.

Col 3:3  For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

Col 3:4  When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

Col 3:5  Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

Col 3:6  For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

Col 3:19  Husbands, love your wives, and be not bitter against them.

Col 3:20  Children, obey your parents in all things: for this is well pleasing unto the Lord.

Col 3:21  Fathers, provoke not your children to anger, lest they be discouraged.

Col 3:22  Servants, obey in all things your masters according to the flesh; not with eyeservice, as menpleasers; but in singleness of heart, fearing God:

Col 3:23  And whatsoever ye do, do it heartily, as to the Lord, and not unto men;

Col 3:24  Knowing that of the Lord ye shall receive the reward of the inheritance: for ye serve the Lord Christ.

Col 3:25  But he that doeth wrong shall receive for the wrong which he hath done: and there is no respect of persons.

Col 1:9  For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

Col 1:10  That ye might walk worthy of the Lord unto all pleasing, being fruitful in every good work, and increasing in the knowledge of God;


Col 1:21  And you, that were sometime alienated and enemies in your mind by wicked works, yet now hath he reconciled

Col 1:22  In the body of his flesh through death, to present you holy and unblameable and unreproveable in his sight:

Col 1:23  If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven; whereof I Paul am made a minister;

Zeek,

None of the above were required for salvation, these are fruits of the Spirit. At first the apostles taught in order to have salvation, one had to repent, be baptized, keep the Lord's Supper. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel. Paul came to see that this wasn't necessary.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on April 21, 2009, 06:09:48 PMNone of the above were required for salvation, these are fruits of the Spirit. At first the apostles taught in order to have salvation, one had to repent, be baptized, keep the Lord's Supper. Gentiles had to be grafted into Israel. Paul came to see that this wasn't necessary.

I was going to leave it alone 'cause I'm still partially working through the repentance part, and learning to see the difference between New Testament and Old Testament repentance, where Old Testament repentance had a lot of the spirit of sorrow on it, yet Paul validates much of that as produced by the Holy Spirit in 2Corinthians 7.  Acts 17 and Acts 20 Paul uses the word "repent" in his message to the nations.  In Luke 24:47 Jesus said that it should be preached to the Nations.  Let's see, 1Corinthians 11 was written towards the middle of his ministry with regards to the Lord's supper to the nations.  And that chapter fits beautifully with Hebrews 7 where in 1Corinthians 11 you proclaim His death until He comes, but in Hebrews 7 there's a way of proclaiming His life until He comes. 

And on the baptism subject, in 1Corinthians 1, St. Paul doesn't fault baptism of Gentiles but says that he wasn't sent to baptize.  But he didn't imply that others weren't and in fact goes on to describe the various offices, briefly, in 1Corinthians 12 that Christ has set in the Body until He returns that produce the Ephesians 4 effect of bringing us to the unity of the faith and unity in our knowledge of the Son of God, so that as it says in 1John 2 and 3 with regards to our transition to the New Earth after we've become fathers in the Kingdom that we have no need for anyone to teach us, because we're seeing the fullness of the Hebrews 8 promise harvested of all knowing Him from the least to the greatest. 

The context of 1Corinthians 12 of "until the Lord returns" is established for us in 1Corinthians 11, and the flow towards the 15th chapter is towards the building of the anointings and the building of all of us through the anointings until we can SEE all things under the feet of Christ in 1Corinthians 15.  And from the perspective of those anointings at work within us based upon the Scriptures and the finished work of the Cross, Paul could close 1Corinthians 15 by audaciously saying that our work in the Lord, or contextually in His anointing (i.e. the Holy Spirit and His operations) is not in vain.  And then in 2Corinthians 3, as everybody knows, He calls the Spirit the Lord.  Repentance in the New Testament is a change of mind in the Greek, so when you embrace the Gospel, you are in fact repenting. 

2Corinthians 7:1 (2Timothy 2 is a good supporting text on this since it was written towards the end of Paul's ministry) says that since we have these promises we should cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God, and then describes himself as being sinless because of the work of the Cross in his life, just as any genuine New Testament believer would, upholding the innocence that's theirs through much holier Blood than Job would insist upon his innocence in the book of Job based upon.  If the Son has made you free, then you are free indeed!

8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, [without the love of God,] they shall fail; whether there be tongues, [without the love of God,] they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, [without the love of God] it shall vanish away.
9For [without the love of God] we know in part, and [without the love of God] we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, [or when love has been perfected] then that which is in part shall be done away. (Ephesians 3 says nothing about knowing in part.  It says comprehending and knowing the length, breadth, height, and depth of the love of God and being filled with all of the fullness of the anointing.  If there's a fullness of God to be filled with in Ephesians 3:19, then it's quite clear you could have a quarter, half, or three quarters.)
11When I was a child, [without the love of God] I spake as a child, [without the love of God] I understood as a child, [without the love of God] I thought as a child: but when I became a man, [or when love was perfected by keeping His Word] I put away childish things.
12For now [without the love of God] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [when love if perfected] face to face: [without the love of God] now I know in part; but then [when love is perfected in me by the Word] shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (1Corinthians 13:8-13; 14:1)

In other words, 1Corinthians 13 wasn't the contradiction to the previous and following chapter that the religiously strangled have always tried to make it out to be, but followed right in line with Ephesians chapters 3 and 4, 1John 2, Isaiah 9, 11, 40, 58, 61, and other chapters in the Old and New Testaments that speak of the ministry of the Body and of it's Head.  It was saying that without the love of God at work, then repentance, baptism, the Lord's table, and everything else is going to be pointless or worse with becoming the sorrow of the world, the wetting of the flesh without the answer of a pure conscience, and eating and drinking damnation to ourselves (i.e. to our physical bodies, according to 1Corinthians 11) not rightly discerning the Body. 

One of the biggest things the Lord only recently got through to me with from 1Corinthians 11 is to not partake when I'm physically hungry.  It's a celebration of fullness and not of needy flesh, so that we should avoid having the ravenous attitude with it that Israel had with the quail in the Old Testament.  And I've broken fasts with it before.  Not the thing to do.  Paul says to go ahead and eat if you're hungry and then come and partake with your spirit rather than your body so that it'll be something that'll strengthen your spirit and ultimately your body since a strong spirit is the life of the flesh, or sustains a man in his infirmity depending on the translation you want to refer to, as well as which passage.

hi martin and cardinal...it seems like the lite is getting brighter and there is definetly a sense of excitement.the curious thing when reading martins response about the plane is...i have been saying to my wife everytime a see a lear jet "i sure like that,be nice to have one" ...but a lot more lately it is intensifying(i like flying)but i think it also means being called to a higher calling
just my sense
blessings :icon_king:

Check out this video.

Dennis Caldwell expands on what we are saved from:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JpngXIZ1d9w&feature=channel_page

Legoman

Quote from: martincisneros on April 21, 2009, 07:01:31 PM
I was going to leave it alone 'cause I'm still partially working through the repentance part, and learning to see the difference between New Testament and Old Testament repentance, where Old Testament repentance had a lot of the spirit of sorrow on it, yet Paul validates much of that as produced by the Holy Spirit in 2Corinthians 7.  Acts 17 and Acts 20 Paul uses the word "repent" in his message to the nations.  In Luke 24:47 Jesus said that it should be preached to the Nations.  Let's see, 1Corinthians 11 was written towards the middle of his ministry with regards to the Lord's supper to the nations.  And that chapter fits beautifully with Hebrews 7 where in 1Corinthians 11 you proclaim His death until He comes, but in Hebrews 7 there's a way of proclaiming His life until He comes. 

And on the baptism subject, in 1Corinthians 1, St. Paul doesn't fault baptism of Gentiles but says that he wasn't sent to baptize.  But he didn't imply that others weren't and in fact goes on to describe the various offices, briefly, in 1Corinthians 12 that Christ has set in the Body until He returns that produce the Ephesians 4 effect of bringing us to the unity of the faith and unity in our knowledge of the Son of God, so that as it says in 1John 2 and 3 with regards to our transition to the New Earth after we've become fathers in the Kingdom that we have no need for anyone to teach us, because we're seeing the fullness of the Hebrews 8 promise harvested of all knowing Him from the least to the greatest. 

The context of 1Corinthians 12 of "until the Lord returns" is established for us in 1Corinthians 11, and the flow towards the 15th chapter is towards the building of the anointings and the building of all of us through the anointings until we can SEE all things under the feet of Christ in 1Corinthians 15.  And from the perspective of those anointings at work within us based upon the Scriptures and the finished work of the Cross, Paul could close 1Corinthians 15 by audaciously saying that our work in the Lord, or contextually in His anointing (i.e. the Holy Spirit and His operations) is not in vain.  And then in 2Corinthians 3, as everybody knows, He calls the Spirit the Lord.  Repentance in the New Testament is a change of mind in the Greek, so when you embrace the Gospel, you are in fact repenting. 

2Corinthians 7:1 (2Timothy 2 is a good supporting text on this since it was written towards the end of Paul's ministry) says that since we have these promises we should cleanse ourselves of all filthiness of flesh and spirit perfecting holiness in the fear of God, and then describes himself as being sinless because of the work of the Cross in his life, just as any genuine New Testament believer would, upholding the innocence that's theirs through much holier Blood than Job would insist upon his innocence in the book of Job based upon.  If the Son has made you free, then you are free indeed!

8Love never faileth: but whether there be prophecies, [without the love of God,] they shall fail; whether there be tongues, [without the love of God,] they shall cease; whether there be knowledge, [without the love of God] it shall vanish away.
9For [without the love of God] we know in part, and [without the love of God] we prophesy in part.
10But when that which is perfect is come, [or when love has been perfected] then that which is in part shall be done away. (Ephesians 3 says nothing about knowing in part.  It says comprehending and knowing the length, breadth, height, and depth of the love of God and being filled with all of the fullness of the anointing.  If there's a fullness of God to be filled with in Ephesians 3:19, then it's quite clear you could have a quarter, half, or three quarters.)
11When I was a child, [without the love of God] I spake as a child, [without the love of God] I understood as a child, [without the love of God] I thought as a child: but when I became a man, [or when love was perfected by keeping His Word] I put away childish things.
12For now [without the love of God] we see through a glass, darkly; but then [when love if perfected] face to face: [without the love of God] now I know in part; but then [when love is perfected in me by the Word] shall I know even as also I am known.
13And now abideth faith, hope, love, these three; but the greatest of these is love.
1Follow after love, and desire spiritual gifts, but rather that ye may prophesy. (1Corinthians 13:8-13; 14:1)

In other words, 1Corinthians 13 wasn't the contradiction to the previous and following chapter that the religiously strangled have always tried to make it out to be, but followed right in line with Ephesians chapters 3 and 4, 1John 2, Isaiah 9, 11, 40, 58, 61, and other chapters in the Old and New Testaments that speak of the ministry of the Body and of it's Head.  It was saying that without the love of God at work, then repentance, baptism, the Lord's table, and everything else is going to be pointless or worse with becoming the sorrow of the world, the wetting of the flesh without the answer of a pure conscience, and eating and drinking damnation to ourselves (i.e. to our physical bodies, according to 1Corinthians 11) not rightly discerning the Body. 

One of the biggest things the Lord only recently got through to me with from 1Corinthians 11 is to not partake when I'm physically hungry.  It's a celebration of fullness and not of needy flesh, so that we should avoid having the ravenous attitude with it that Israel had with the quail in the Old Testament.  And I've broken fasts with it before.  Not the thing to do.  Paul says to go ahead and eat if you're hungry and then come and partake with your spirit rather than your body so that it'll be something that'll strengthen your spirit and ultimately your body since a strong spirit is the life of the flesh, or sustains a man in his infirmity depending on the translation you want to refer to, as well as which passage.

The Real New Testament Order

What is the proper New Testament order?
 
Two of the greatest textual critics of the New Testament were Westcott and Hort who were the British scholars responsible for giving the world the Revised Version of 1881. In their Greek text of their New Testament they presented the order as evidenced by the best manuscripts according to them. The same order was followed by Professor Gregory of Germany (another great textual scholar of this century):

"The order in which we place the books of the New Testament is not a matter of indifference. Every Christian should be familiar with these books, and should know precisely where to find each book. Every New Testament should have the books in precisely the same order, the order of the Greek Church, which in this case is of right the guardian of this ancient literature. The proper order is, I think: First, the Four Gospels: Matthew, Mark, Luke and John. Second, the Book of Acts. Third, the Catholic Epistles: James, First and Second Peter, First, Second and Third John, and Jude. Fourth, the Epistles of Paul: Romans, First and Second Corinthians, Galatians, Ephesians, Philippians, Colossians, First and Second Thessalonians, Hebrews, First and Second Timothy, Titus, Philemon. And fifth, the Book of Revelation.... The Greek order is that which places the Epistle to the Hebrews between Thessalonians and Timothy, and that is the order to which we should hold. The Latin order [Jerome] places Hebrews after Philemon. But we must keep to the old order or we shall have the New Testament turned upside down in connection with every fancied discovery as to authorship and date of books" (Rene Gregory, Canon and Text of the New Testament, pp.467-469, italic and brackets mine).

There can be no doubt that this scholarly belief of Professor Gregory was absolutely correct (which was also sustained by Westcott and Hort). The world needs to return to this original manuscript order of the 27 New Testament books. Ernest L Martin

CHB

Quote from: onlytruth on April 21, 2009, 07:56:06 PMthe curious thing when reading martins response about the plane is...i have been saying to my wife everytime a see a lear jet "i sure like that,be nice to have one" ...but a lot more lately it is intensifying(i like flying)but i think it also means being called to a higher calling

14Then shalt thou delight thyself in the LORD; and I will cause thee to ride upon the high places of the earth, and feed thee with the heritage of Jacob thy father: for the mouth of the LORD hath spoken it. (Isaiah 58:14)

I don't agree with every single word Martin says here but most of it I do agree with.


The Mystery And The New Covenant

http://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.htm

CHB

Quote from: 70sevens on April 21, 2009, 02:27:34 AM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 21, 2009, 12:44:33 AM

Quote from: Doc on April 20, 2009, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

I do think otherwise.
If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.
He believed another Jesus, that's why sin still remains in him.
If he claims that he is in the process of salvation to be complete,
I bet he will say so still in front of his death.
Thus, his whole life is being deceived without being saved.
 
It is good to have questions, as they will lead us to true Jesus.
But so many times our direction to Jesus is hampered
because we accept non-truth answers.
Maybe we may have to spend more time there.

God bless.

If we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

On a technicality, we're in the Abrahamic Covenant.  I use the phraseology of Old Covenant and New Covenant because St. Paul distinguished the Gospel dispensation as the New Covenant in 2Corinthians 3:6.  But technically, it's all just one Covenant, the Covenant of Abraham.  Hebrews 8 refutes dispensationalism.  Even John Walvoord of Dallas Theological Seminary acknowledged it to at least be "problematic for the dispensationalist."  The New Covenant as envisioned by Jeremiah 31 includes the Gentiles according to verses 27-28.  Galatians says about the inheritance of the Gentiles:

13Christ hath redeemed us from the curse of the law (i.e. not from the law itself, per se, although much of it is fulfilled in Christ, but from it's curse), being made a curse for us: for it is written, Cursed is every one that hangeth on a tree:
14That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith.

To say that all of the law is fulfilled is to say that the heavens and earth have passed away according to Jesus, and you can only go there if you're embracing full preterism which is a heresy based upon a pretty bad twisting of Luke 21:22 that prematurely dismisses what was written afterwards and areas of the Old and New Testament prophets not fulfilled by 70AD.

Anyway, that the blessing promised to Abraham would come upon the Gentiles, and although it's an interpretive translation, it's a better translation than saying the nations because of the two-fold issues of it having been addressed to the Church and it being about the inheritance of the first fruits which are the called, chosen, and faithful.  For other reasons as well, but trying to be brief.  And Romans 4 says that the blessing is the inheritance of the world rather than heaven, although we're likened to celestials in the Gospel because of the power of the transformative work of the Gospel in our lives rather than because of some separation that St. Paul says has been removed. Galatians 3 includes the promise of the Spirit in the Abrahamic Covenant.  Not just the promise made by the Spirit, but the Spirit Himself and all that flows as a result of His union and cooperation with the Chief Administrative work of Jesus our High Priest in our communion with Him.

Christ tore away the wall that separates Jew and Gentile that the dispensationalist does their best to try to rebuild, but those of us who were far away are brought near by the Blood in Ephesians 2, the same Blood that draws both Jews and Gentiles into One Body according to Ephesians chapters 2 and 4.  This mystery was always a part of the Gospel, including in Romans where it says:

25Now to him that is of power to stablish you according to my gospel, and the preaching of Jesus Christ, according to the revelation of the mystery, which was kept secret since the world began,
26But now is made manifest, and by the scriptures of the prophets, according to the commandment of the everlasting God, made known to all nations for the obedience of faith: (Romans 16:25-26)

Ephesians, Philippians, and Colossians reveal the exact same teaching as every other book of the New Testament.  This is a semantical argument to say otherwise.  We've not seen the most advanced and final teaching of the Gospel yet revealed, though it's fully based in the Scriptures when it comes in the fullness of the Spirit and Power.  It won't be some extrabiblical thing as many have tried to insinuate by trying to include all kinds of extra old and new books to the canon.  The New Covenant is the seating of believers in this life on the throne of God according to Romans 5, Ephesians 2, and Revelation 3.  And 1John says that our faith is the victory that has overcome the world.  We are regarded as one new man in Christ, the Last Adam.  The new race is all that there will ever be.  When Israel is converted, they're reconciled with us rather than us with them.  God's concluded Judaism forever.  Joshua even says that all land promises were fulfilled in his day:

"So the LORD gave to Israel all the land of which He had sworn to give to their fathers, and they took possession of it and dwelt in it... Not a word failed of any good thing which the LORD had spoken to the house of Israel. All came to pass" (Joshua 21:43,45).

And the book of Hebrews makes it abundantly clear that the Jeremiah 31 land grant is our spiritual inheritance of taking all of the nations of the world and discipling them to the Gospel of Christ.  The Church is the only Biblical Israel that God will ever acknowledge ever again, although His Spirit will be poured out upon all Jews and they will behold Him Whom they've pierced in the exact same way that each of us have beheld Him Whom we've pierced.  Not a bit different in how they'll come to God through Christ Jesus.  There are many questions this may bring up and for brevity, I'll bring up the link for the 95 Thesis against Dispensationalism that has yet to be successfully answered though many Dispensationalists, including a number of leading ones, have promised a Biblical answer from their perspective, but have yet to deliver:

http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml (http://www.againstdispensationalism.com/95theses.shtml)

Quote from: Doc on April 21, 2009, 09:26:26 PMIf we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

This was an attack on John's part against Paul for saying this:

Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. (2Corinthians 7:2)

According to some scholars, while others hold that 1John 1 was written to the docetists because of their heresy, that if they'd confess their sin, then He would be faithful and just to forgive them of their sin and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.  If we're cleansed from all unrighteousness, then no sin remains.  In other words, because of a lot of very startling statements in Paul's Gospel, 1John 1 was evidently specifically written to those that weren't Christians but were Gnostics.  The question about 1John 1:9 must be fairly answered that if He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then what unrighteousness remains after the all has been cleansed?

Quote from: martincisneros on April 21, 2009, 09:38:54 PM

Quote from: Doc on April 21, 2009, 09:26:26 PMIf we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

This was an attack on John's part against Paul for saying this:

Receive us; we have wronged no man, we have corrupted no man, we have defrauded no man. (2Corinthians 7:2)

According to some scholars, while others hold that 1John 1 was written to the docetists because of their heresy, that if they'd confess their sin, then He would be faithful and just to forgive them of their sin and to cleanse them from all unrighteousness.  If we're cleansed from all unrighteousness, then no sin remains.  In other words, because of a lot of very startling statements in Paul's Gospel, 1John 1 was evidently specifically written to those that weren't Christians but were Gnostics.  The question about 1John 1:9 must be fairly answered that if He cleanses us from all unrighteousness, then what unrighteousness remains after the all has been cleansed?

Well, IDK. The text the way I have it says, If we confess our sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a one time event, or if it is ongoing. Perhaps this is just the way I've been taught to view it, and is yet another thing I have to repent on. Perhaps the word homologeo there may give us a clue; if it's aorist, then I'd have more of a suspicion that the confessing is more of an ongoing process than a one-time event.

I guess to answer your question, I'd have to know if the confession, forgiveness and cleansing are a one time event or ongoing. If it's ongoing, then every time we confess, we're cleansed from all the unrighteousness associated with the confessed sin. If it's a one-time event, then the first time we do it, it's taken care of once for all. But it seems to me that if we sin again after we have been cleansed from the associated unrighteousness, then we have to rinse and repeat for the new sin?

Quote from: CHB on April 21, 2009, 08:57:42 PMhttp://www.askelm.com/doctrine/d920501.htm

I've honestly never understood articles like this that don't tackle the immediate issue of Ephesians 2 where it says that we're brought nigh, not only to the Father by the Blood of Christ, but we're brought nigh to those covenants of promise.  Covenants in the plural.  A good theonomical argument could perhaps even be exegetically made out of what He's making one in His own Body, as far as Old Covenant and New Covenant.  Contextually, He's nullified the precepts and decrees that stood in the way of that oneness.  But He didn't nullify either portion of what He was making one.  Anyway, I don't insist upon this interpretation of Ephesians 2, but it was interesting as I was mentally running through the whole chapter again.  I'm still not fully persuaded of theonomy as being the right doctrine to present to world leaders, although I acknowledge the US constitution as being a fabulous example of it.  Just not sure if that's the totality of wisdom that God would wish to reveal through the High Priestly ministry of Jesus (1Corinthians 1:30).

Quote from: Doc on April 21, 2009, 10:31:27 PMWell, IDK. The text the way I have it says, If we confess our sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a one time event, or if it is ongoing. Perhaps this is just the way I've been taught to view it, and is yet another thing I have to repent on.

Back up a couple of verses to where it says that as we stand in faith on the finished work of Christ that it's a perpetual cleansing.  But it's a different mindset with walking in the light rather than walking in an Old Testament consciousness of sin that Hebrews chapters 1 and 10 say that once we've been purged, we should have and tolerate no more consciousness of sin, but as 2Corinthians 10 says, we should bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  We walk in the light of that cleansing thanking God that we're free, according to Colossians 2:6-7 rather than forking over evidence to the accuser of the brethren to try to convict us with.  Rebuking the thought of whatever sort that it is that would try to get us to take a step out of the light is the way you deal with it under grace.  St. Paul said he'd slap his body around commanding it to straighten up and get in line with the Word. 

Obviously a few generations later turned it into unbelief with trying to atone for one's own sins with a lot of personal whips that believers started using on themselves.  But when he talked about buffeting his body, he wasn't speaking of anything either metaphorical on the one hand, nor on the opposite extreme of some of the Catholic practices over the centuries.  He was talking about striking that body of his with the same hand that he'd lay on the sick for their healing and expect the Holy Spirit to quicken His Body according to Romans 8:11.  Works wonders when you've been standing against something in faith for the longest time, but have somehow either inevitably kept falling prey to it or just never have been able to get out from under that flesh pressure that's trying to hang on. 

I've popped myself more than once commanding my body to settle down over the gluttony issue and to come in line with the Word of God that says I'm supposed to be sanctified spirit, soul, and body.  Hebrews 5:12-14 says that through training, and as you'd say, we proceed to draw from the tree of life.  This is an area of the laying on of hands that you better be sure that your condemnation issues have been resolved with the Word of God first before you ever feel lead to administer this to yourself to forcefully break with something.  And obviously, I'm not talking about self mutilation or knocking one's self out.  I'm not talking about getting ridiculous with repeatedly pulling it in line over the exact same thing.  Our repetitiveness is in the renewal of our minds with the Word, but sometimes you need to reboot the system and get in the mirror and tell yourself that we're not doing this again :punish: 

Get that serious about it, and it's not self righteousness although some may accuse you of that later.  But it'll be the outworking of His righteousness in your life and you'll inherit the promise of that liberty.  Righteousness will flow just like wisdom and healing, and we ought to be taking greater advantage of the laying on of hands on ourselves where our own stand of faith in His exceeding great and precious promises are concerned.  I had to do that more than once when I had a pinched nerve in my right leg a couple of months ago, and it lasted about 5 weeks instead of the months and months that some websites were telling me it would wind up taking.  And when you've got a nerve running down the side of your leg that's absolutely screaming, the last thing you want to do is smack that thing telling it to stop that in the Name of Jesus. 

But I grew up around a healing Gospel, so, I can approach infirmity of my own flesh in that way from a position of deep roots of the Word rather than trying to magically make anything happen through the mind or the will.  Anyone with no depth in the Word regarding these things that I'm talking about, briefly, better ignore all I just said and head for the emergency room immediately if anything weird happens this week 'cause mere mimickery won't produce the results if you're not a disciple of the Word in that particular area of the Word.  For most people, since dealing with this sin issue is all they've ever heard, then instead of repenting 75 times a day for the same thing, they need to take a long hard look at the Gospel that says they're free and deal with themselves in the thought realm speaking to themselves as a joint-heir with Christ that's already been made free from all of these afflictions.  After they've repented of something, they ought to be repeatedly thanking God for their cleansing and liberty in the Spirit from that and laying claim to the Lord's strength and wisdom affirming that with His grace they're not getting into that mess again.  Every area in our lives needs to be diligently approached with the Word and our thanksgiving until we have that release in the spirit that we've given it the attention that it needed and that Goliath isn't getting up again in our lives.  There does come a point where the day dawns and the morning star arises in your heart about various issues.

Where a lot of sin creeps into the lives of believers is in thinking about food all day long, rather than the Word, or thinking of what they should have told so and so after some incident and then they get home all pumped with the wrong words and don't understand why they called their spouse ugly and smacked their kids across the room over absolutely nothing.  A lot of sin in the lives of believers is premeditated, when if we'd just nip this in the bud by refusing to be victims in our own minds of our flesh, our genes, etc., then a whole lot of things in the Word would reboot and come on line in our spirits and we'd be more consistently speaking faith to every situation of our lives and keeping every care completely rolled over on Him because we know that He cares for us.  We shouldn't consider it burdensome to ourselves to speak to ourselves of the same things over and over again of how much He cares for us and how much He's provided at the Cross because we haven't followed cunningly devised fables.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 21, 2009, 10:57:26 PM

Quote from: Doc on April 21, 2009, 10:31:27 PMWell, IDK. The text the way I have it says, If we confess our sin, then He is faithful and just to forgive us our sin and cleanse us from all unrighteousness. It doesn't seem to be clear whether this is a one time event, or if it is ongoing. Perhaps this is just the way I've been taught to view it, and is yet another thing I have to repent on.

Back up a couple of verses to where it says that as we stand in faith on the finished work of Christ that it's a perpetual cleansing.  But it's a different mindset with walking in the light rather than walking in an Old Testament consciousness of sin that Hebrews chapters 1 and 10 say that once we've been purged, we should have and tolerate no more consciousness of sin, but as 2Corinthians 10 says, we should bring every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  We walk in the light of that cleansing thanking God that we're free, according to Colossians 2:6-7 rather than forking over evidence to the accuser of the brethren to try to convict us with.  Rebuking the thought of whatever sort that it is that would try to get us to take a step out of the light is the way you deal with it under grace.  St. Paul said he'd slap his body around commanding it to straighten up and get in line with the Word. 

Obviously a few generations later turned it into unbelief with trying to atone for one's own sins with a lot of personal whips that believers started using on themselves.  But when he talked about buffeting his body, he wasn't speaking of anything either metaphorical on the one hand, nor on the opposite extreme of some of the Catholic practices over the centuries.  He was talking about striking that body of his with the same hand that he'd lay on the sick for their healing and expect the Holy Spirit to quicken His Body according to Romans 8:11.  Works wonders when you've been standing against something in faith for the longest time, but have somehow either inevitably kept falling prey to it or just never have been able to get out from under that flesh pressure that's trying to hang on. 

I've popped myself more than once commanding my body to settle down over the gluttony issue and to come in line with the Word of God that says I'm supposed to be sanctified spirit, soul, and body.  Hebrews 5:12-14 says that through training, and as you'd say, we proceed to draw from the tree of life.  This is an area of the laying on of hands that you better be sure that your condemnation issues have been resolved with the Word of God first before you ever feel lead to administer this to yourself to forcefully break with something.  And obviously, I'm not talking about self mutilation or knocking one's self out.  I'm not talking about getting ridiculous with repeatedly pulling it in line over the exact same thing.  Our repetitiveness is in the renewal of our minds with the Word, but sometimes you need to reboot the system and get in the mirror and tell yourself that we're not doing this again :punish: 

Get that serious about it, and it's not self righteousness although some may accuse you of that later.  But it'll be the outworking of His righteousness in your life and you'll inherit the promise of that liberty.  Righteousness will flow just like wisdom and healing, and we ought to be taking greater advantage of the laying on of hands on ourselves where our own stand of faith in His exceeding great and precious promises are concerned.  I had to do that more than once when I had a pinched nerve in my right leg a couple of months ago, and it lasted about 5 weeks instead of the months and months that some websites were telling me it would wind up taking.  And when you've got a nerve running down the side of your leg that's absolutely screaming, the last thing you want to do is smack that thing telling it to stop that in the Name of Jesus. 

But I grew up around a healing Gospel, so, I can approach infirmity of my own flesh in that way from a position of deep roots of the Word rather than trying to magically make anything happen through the mind or the will.  Anyone with no depth in the Word regarding these things that I'm talking about, briefly, better ignore all I just said and head for the emergency room immediately if anything weird happens this week 'cause mere mimickery won't produce the results if you're not a disciple of the Word in that particular area of the Word.  For most people, since dealing with this sin issue is all they've ever heard, then instead of repenting 75 times a day for the same thing, they need to take a long hard look at the Gospel that says they're free and deal with themselves in the thought realm speaking to themselves as a joint-heir with Christ that's already been made free from all of these afflictions.  After they've repented of something, they ought to be repeatedly thanking God for their cleansing and liberty in the Spirit from that and laying claim to the Lord's strength and wisdom affirming that with His grace they're not getting into that mess again.  Every area in our lives needs to be diligently approached with the Word and our thanksgiving until we have that release in the spirit that we've given it the attention that it needed and that Goliath isn't getting up again in our lives.  There does come a point where the day dawns and the morning star arises in your heart about various issues.

Where a lot of sin creeps into the lives of believers is in thinking about food all day long, rather than the Word, or thinking of what they should have told so and so after some incident and then they get home all pumped with the wrong words and don't understand why they called their spouse ugly and smacked their kids across the room over absolutely nothing.  A lot of sin in the lives of believers is premeditated, when if we'd just nip this in the bud by refusing to be victims in our own minds of our flesh, our genes, etc., then a whole lot of things in the Word would reboot and come on line in our spirits and we'd be more consistently speaking faith to every situation of our lives and keeping every care completely rolled over on Him because we know that He cares for us.  We shouldn't consider it burdensome to ourselves to speak to ourselves of the same things over and over again of how much He cares for us and how much He's provided at the Cross because we haven't followed cunningly devised fables.

I hear what you're saying here, particularly with regard to the first paragraph; I was wondering about that in looking at the passage, and that seems to be what I had been trying to learn lately, but was so far unsuccessful in experiencing. If the cleansing is an ongoing process, then why isn't the confessing? Although, maybe it is in that sense and context of walking in the light. If you're walking in the light, then those things that are being cleansed are going to be exposed by the light, and you "confess" them by simply doing what the Greek there means, which is to assent to the fact that; yes there's that thing that's being cleansed, and then watch it go as quickly as it showed up kind of thing.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 21, 2009, 10:57:26 PMA lot of sin in the lives of believers is premeditated, when if we'd just nip this in the bud by refusing to be victims in our own minds of our flesh, our genes, etc., then a whole lot of things in the Word would reboot and come on line in our spirits and we'd be more consistently speaking faith to every situation of our lives and keeping every care completely rolled over on Him because we know that He cares for us.

When I said this, I didn't mean premeditated as far as the particular deed, like someone was planning on lying to a loved one all day or whatever.  A true believer isn't regarding iniquity in their hearts.  What I'm talking about is meditation/worry about their fears, all of the natural reasons for them to feel condemned and less than God's best, inspite of the Cross and the renewing by the Word and regeneration of the Spirit at work in their lives.  They see themselves "under the circumstances" rather than seated with Christ as a joint-heir of all of the pottery around them, starting with their own bodies.  They meditate their fear, their stress, their frustrations, the things that annoy them and how annoyed they were by this or that, and when they meditate on how some wrong from themselves or others made 'em feel and really nurture those emotions by giving themselves more and more to them, then of course they're going to act out of character for someone seated at the right hand of God in Christ.  Or they're letting the devil steal the Word over some religious or semantical or political difference and aren't putting the pressure on the Word.  We've got to separate the pressure from the problem in our minds, realizing that all of the problems have already been solved by Jesus and we're LABORING DILIGENTLY to enter into His rest.  God said it, I said it after Him, so that settles it.  Nothing could be simpler.  But if you see yourself in the pig pen all day, then you're going to pick up your loved ones when you get home and try to literally throw them into the pig pen out back!

Quote from: Doc on April 21, 2009, 11:56:12 PMI hear what you're saying here, particularly with regard to the first paragraph; I was wondering about that in looking at the passage, and that seems to be what I had been trying to learn lately, but was so far unsuccessful in experiencing. If the cleansing is an ongoing process, then why isn't the confessing? Although, maybe it is in that sense and context of walking in the light. If you're walking in the light, then those things that are being cleansed are going to be exposed by the light, and you "confess" them by simply doing what the Greek there means, which is to assent to the fact that; yes there's that thing that's being cleansed, and then watch it go as quickly as it showed up kind of thing.

A lot of times over the last 3 years, if I have missed the mark, my immediate response was words to this effect:

No sir, I'm not going to yield to that and be moved by what I see or by what I feel.  I already repented of that and I'm standing on the Word that says I'm free.  I've already cast the care of that over on God and taken every thought captive to the obedience of Christ.  I cast down this imagination that's trying to exalt itself against the Word of God in my life as though I'd failed to receive my cleansing, and I'm entering into the joy of the Lord because He's faithful and just regardless of what it looks like, what I feel or don't feel, or what I see in the mirror.  I believe I was cleansed and I yield to the authority of that, rather than commiting an additional sin by yielding to my flesh as an authority of what I just said or did, or in what way I may have appeared to have stepped out of the light.  I already repented and I'm not going back on that repentance, no matter what.  As it says in Psalm 15:4, I've sworn to my own hurt and I don't change.  Not now.  Not ever.  I'm cleansed of that in the Name of Jesus and the devil's cast out.  Devil, you're not taking my liberty from me in Christ and subjecting me again to bondage in the Name of Jesus.  You are resisted, so take your attempt at bringing me under condemnation and the lower law of consequences that is not the law of seed-faith and get out of here.  I yield only to the authority of my Lord Jesus regarding all things that pertain to my life and godliness in Him.  Christ Who is my life appears in this flesh, and I appear with Him in glory as well.  YOUR'RE NOT TAKING MY HARVEST AWAY FROM ME OF RIGHTEOUSNESS, PEACE, AND JOY IN THE HOLY SPIRIT EVER!!!!

In other words, stand on your repentance by faith.  You've already repented, right?  Don't let the devil steal that.  It is finished!

After reading the article "Against Dispensationalism" I come to the conclusion they don't understand Dispensationalism completely and neither do I. I do not consider myself a dispensationalists. I do not know for sure if there will be a rapture, I find more scripture against it than for it. I do believe the Covenants were for Israel ONLY because that is what the scriptures plainly say. The Old Covenant was between God and Israel which no one tries to dispute but they try to say the New Covenant was for Jew and Gentile which the Bible does not say at all. God said "I will make a New Covenant with the house of Israel"... because the Old Covenant was going to be done away with. If I came to you and said "I am going to give you a new computer because your old one is shot and doesn't work any more" would you think I was speaking to someone over in Israel also?  Just using this as an example.

CHB

Quote from: martincisneros on April 22, 2009, 12:10:19 AM
In other words, stand on your repentance by faith.  You've already repented, right?  Don't let the devil steal that.  It is finished!

So it would seem. I've wanted to believe this since I read of the concept from Gary Sigler, but just couldn't quite get my head around it. I have to remember to believe what God says in the scriptures, rather than my experience.

Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2009, 01:07:16 AMIf I came to you and said "I am going to give you a new computer because your old one is shot and doesn't work any more" would you think I was speaking to someone over in Israel also?  Just using this as an example.

The covenant was never with Israel, it was with Abraham and Christ.  They enjoyed many of it's blessings, but the Scriptures say that it was between God, Abraham, and Christ that's why though they could break the law and be deserving of the most horrendous death, yet God just kept coming with promises through the prophets of better days ahead 'cause the covenant had never been broken.  It was settled on Mt Moriah and at the Cross.  The blood covenant was always a blood covenant of faith.  The Law belonged to Israel, but the blood covenants weren't exclusively theirs.  They belonged to the seed, which is Christ and those that belong to Christ, otherwise you're saying that the blessedness of the blood covenants only come to those under the law which Paul flatly rejected in the following, as well as elsewhere:

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only (i.e. of the Covenant), or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Romans 4:6-18)


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (one in Christ means one in the Covenant.  There is no other oneness that the Bible acknowledges from cover to cover.)
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


To say that the covenants only belonged to Israel is like saying that only monogamous marriage belongs to Israel while something else entirely from God belongs to the nations.  Mormons have tried that one in previous generations.  God's never blessed it, and so it is with the Gospel.  God will never acknowledge more than one way to come to Him.  It's through the Blood of Christ and the oaths God took in that blood.  The Mosaic Law alone belonged to those that were Jews and those God fearers in the Old Testament that wanted to join themselves to the Israeli society, as many did at the close of the book of Esther.  But the Covenant was for Jew and Gentile and Abraham's the father of those that believe, whether Jew or Gentile. 

The two administrations doctrine is actually rooted in cessationistic ideas rather than in any reality about the New Covenant, or certain writings no longer applying on no other basis than when they were written.  It's an intellectual relativistic shell game that the Apostles didn't get the goods from Jesus Himself, and it's a horrible abuse of what He promised about more on the presupposition that nobody got it but Paul which is bogus as you compare all of the writings of the New Testament.  Because we've theologically created this system based upon the Son of God totally divorced from the Abrahamic heritage, then we're able to chuck all of the Old Testament blessings, along with the miraculous, and when we do, we nullify what He said over the Bread and Cup that was what He bled for alone. 

He didn't die for anything else, but the New Covenant.  Separate yourself from the New Covenant and you've separated yourself from the Christ of the pages of the Bible.  The nullification of the supernatural in Christianity is rooted in this idea that the New Covenant essentially passed away and/or got postponed to God's resurrection of Judaism because He's supposedly acknowledging two ways during the millenium, which is total heresy.  And I'm not jumping you for having said what you said.  This is just such a major thief of God's blessings for the Church and through the Church to the nations being discipled by the Church, including Israel.  According to St. Paul, all of the covenants and all of eschatology is summed up in the Son of Abraham, rather than in Jacob.

Quote from: Doc on April 21, 2009, 09:26:26 PM

Quote from: 70sevens on April 21, 2009, 02:27:34 AM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 21, 2009, 12:44:33 AM

Quote from: Doc on April 20, 2009, 11:50:04 PM

Quote from: NinjaWizards777 on April 20, 2009, 11:07:27 PM
I thought I posted this response...but it doesnt appear I did...so here I go again:

So if Jesus merely died to save us from the "flesh" and "sin" then did he still not acomplish his mission? Since when we accept christ...the flesh and sin are still problems

The flesh and sin are still present because we have not seen the end of our salvation yet. It is most definitely a process.

He who began a good work in you will be faithful to complete it; This spells out clearly that not everything is completed at the moment of "acceptance" of Christ.

mmk that makes sense I spose

I do think otherwise.
If the flesh and sin are still problems, that means he is not saved yet by Jesus.
He believed another Jesus, that's why sin still remains in him.
If he claims that he is in the process of salvation to be complete,
I bet he will say so still in front of his death.
Thus, his whole life is being deceived without being saved.
 
It is good to have questions, as they will lead us to true Jesus.
But so many times our direction to Jesus is hampered
because we accept non-truth answers.
Maybe we may have to spend more time there.

God bless.

If we say we are without sin, then we lie and the truth is not in us.

Yes,
as I say, we confess ourselves we are sinners according to the teachings at the Church.
But we are confessing so superficailly by lips only,
not from the bottom of our hearts based on the sinners' life,
in order to be friends of Jesus and/or to be saved.

In this case, we are fake sinners who do not know really what the sinners are.
Therefore, these men are they that who are without sin in the verse,
and naturally there is no truth in them, and they lie.

I also have difficulty understanding what we are saved from. This is coupled with the question as to why Jesus had to die - or, more to the point, what would have become of humanity if He hadn`t died?

Also, does the death of Christ purchase everlasting life for everyone or just eonian life for believers?

Possibly the problem is that many of us who are from an evangelical background  have inherited a "substitutionary" view of the atonement which may have to be re-examined

Don`t get me wrong, I too believe that all will "get to heaven" in the end, but I would like a clear understanding of how this happens.

Jeff

Jesus died on the cross 2000 years ago to save our sin.
How come his death on the cross can save us from our sin?
At 2000 years ago, we were not even born.
Of course, he saved his disciples at his age who followed Him 3 years.
But how about us who are living here?

Traditionally we are taught that if we believe the fact that Jesus is the Saviour
then we are saved.
To tell the truth, that is only imaginary salvation,
which is not the salvation that Bible says.

We are required to meet Jesus individually as disciples did
and be healed by him.
Then, we will be saved from our sin.
This salvation will be the same quality with that of the disciples.
And the Bible says only this salvation. No other kind.

The death of Jesus 2000 years ago was path-breaking
for all mankind to enter the Kingdom of God (to be saved).
Those who wish to enter the Kingdom of God (to be saved) are to go to the path
by meeting Jesus individually.

Many people think that they are under the process of salvation
because they get dreams/visions and revelations from God/Holy Spirit.
But that is not Jesus, the Saviour.

We should know the difference amongst God, Jesus and Holy Spirit.
What do you think the difference is? Or do you think all are same?

Quote from: martincisneros on April 22, 2009, 03:00:34 AM

Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2009, 01:07:16 AMIf I came to you and said "I am going to give you a new computer because your old one is shot and doesn't work any more" would you think I was speaking to someone over in Israel also?  Just using this as an example.

The covenant was never with Israel, it was with Abraham and Christ.  They enjoyed many of it's blessings, but the Scriptures say that it was between God, Abraham, and Christ that's why though they could break the law and be deserving of the most horrendous death, yet God just kept coming with promises through the prophets of better days ahead 'cause the covenant had never been broken.  It was settled on Mt Moriah and at the Cross.  The blood covenant was always a blood covenant of faith.  The Law belonged to Israel, but the blood covenants weren't exclusively theirs.  They belonged to the seed, which is Christ and those that belong to Christ, otherwise you're saying that the blessedness of the blood covenants only come to those under the law which Paul flatly rejected in the following, as well as elsewhere:

6Even as David also describeth the blessedness of the man, unto whom God imputeth righteousness without works,
7Saying, Blessed are they whose iniquities are forgiven, and whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man to whom the Lord will not impute sin.
9Cometh this blessedness then upon the circumcision only (i.e. of the Covenant), or upon the uncircumcision also? for we say that faith was reckoned to Abraham for righteousness.
10How was it then reckoned? when he was in circumcision, or in uncircumcision? Not in circumcision, but in uncircumcision.
11And he received the sign of circumcision, a seal of the righteousness of the faith which he had yet being uncircumcised: that he might be the father of all them that believe, though they be not circumcised; that righteousness might be imputed unto them also:
12And the father of circumcision to them who are not of the circumcision only, but who also walk in the steps of that faith of our father Abraham, which he had being yet uncircumcised.
13For the promise, that he should be the heir of the world, was not to Abraham, or to his seed, through the law, but through the righteousness of faith.
14For if they which are of the law be heirs, faith is made void, and the promise made of none effect:
15Because the law worketh wrath: for where no law is, there is no transgression.
16Therefore it is of faith, that it might be by grace; to the end the promise might be sure to all the seed; not to that only which is of the law, but to that also which is of the faith of Abraham; who is the father of us all,
17(As it is written, I have made thee a father of many nations,) before him whom he believed, even God, who quickeneth the dead, and calleth those things which be not as though they were.
18Who against hope believed in hope, that he might become the father of many nations, according to that which was spoken, So shall thy seed be. (Romans 4:6-18)


16Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.
17And this I say, that the covenant, that was confirmed before of God in Christ, the law, which was four hundred and thirty years after, cannot disannul, that it should make the promise of none effect.
18For if the inheritance be of the law, it is no more of promise: but God gave it to Abraham by promise.
19Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.
20Now a mediator is not a mediator of one, but God is one.
21Is the law then against the promises of God? God forbid: for if there had been a law given which could have given life, verily righteousness should have been by the law.
22But the scripture hath concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe.
23But before faith came, we were kept under the law, shut up unto the faith which should afterwards be revealed.
24Wherefore the law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith.
25But after that faith is come, we are no longer under a schoolmaster.
26For ye are all the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus.
27For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ.
28There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor free, there is neither male nor female: for ye are all one in Christ Jesus. (one in Christ means one in the Covenant.  There is no other oneness that the Bible acknowledges from cover to cover.)
29And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.


To say that the covenants only belonged to Israel is like saying that only monogamous marriage belongs to Israel while something else entirely from God belongs to the nations.  Mormons have tried that one in previous generations.  God's never blessed it, and so it is with the Gospel.  God will never acknowledge more than one way to come to Him.  It's through the Blood of Christ and the oaths God took in that blood.  The Mosaic Law alone belonged to those that were Jews and those God fearers in the Old Testament that wanted to join themselves to the Israeli society, as many did at the close of the book of Esther.  But the Covenant was for Jew and Gentile and Abraham's the father of those that believe, whether Jew or Gentile. 

The two administrations doctrine is actually rooted in cessationistic ideas rather than in any reality about the New Covenant, or certain writings no longer applying on no other basis than when they were written.  It's an intellectual relativistic shell game that the Apostles didn't get the goods from Jesus Himself, and it's a horrible abuse of what He promised about more on the presupposition that nobody got it but Paul which is bogus as you compare all of the writings of the New Testament.  Because we've theologically created this system based upon the Son of God totally divorced from the Abrahamic heritage, then we're able to chuck all of the Old Testament blessings, along with the miraculous, and when we do, we nullify what He said over the Bread and Cup that was what He bled for alone. 

He didn't die for anything else, but the New Covenant.  Separate yourself from the New Covenant and you've separated yourself from the Christ of the pages of the Bible.  The nullification of the supernatural in Christianity is rooted in this idea that the New Covenant essentially passed away and/or got postponed to God's resurrection of Judaism because He's supposedly acknowledging two ways during the millenium, which is total heresy.  And I'm not jumping you for having said what you said.  This is just such a major thief of God's blessings for the Church and through the Church to the nations being discipled by the Church, including Israel.  According to St. Paul, all of the covenants and all of eschatology is summed up in the Son of Abraham, rather than in Jacob.

Martin, the thing is, and what I have been trying to say is. Why do we need a Covenant? We are not under any Covenant. A Covenant is an agreement between two parties that agree to certain rules. The way I understand it is, the plan of God from the very beginning, was to get to the point where paul got to. No laws, no rules, no Covenants, connected with our salvation. That is why I said it depends upon the knowledge of the whole thing.  Of course it was in God's plan that things happen the way they have happened.

Please explain this verse (Jer. 31:31-33) Behold the days come, saith the Lord, that I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah;  {Verse 32 shows who this old covenant was with and why the new covenant.}    (Verse 33) But this shall be the Covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the Lord, I will put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God and they shall be my people.

Also this verse (Heb. 8:8) For finding fault with them, he saith, Behold, the days come, saith the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah.

Jesus died for Israel first and formost but he also died for the world because of the sinful flesh of Adam being passed on to all. Jesus message was mostly to Israel and he even said this Himself (Matt 15:24) I am not sent but unto the lost sheep of the house of Israel. It's kind of like what it says in (1Tim. 4:10) Jesus is the Saviour of all men, especially of those that believe.

If there is a millennium still to come then these Covenants will be re-instituted again until all come into the knowledge of the truth. Which is one with God not one with Israel. We don't need Israel or Abraham to become children of God. We already are children of God. It is the knowledge of who we are that is the key to the whole thing.

I believe we are saved from this fleshly body. If Jesus hadn't died, was resurrected, wouldn't we have died and remained dead?

CHB

We've got like three or four threads going here in one.  A lot of great conversations and difficult to not get overwhelmed by the topics . . .really great stuff.

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

Not just saving us "from" but saving us "for" is also another facet of this subject as well.  As Noah entered the ark and was saved from the destructive nature of life on earth, we to, when we enter into Christ are then saved not only "from" the destructive forces at work in this life, but we are saved "for" the birthing of a new life in a new realm.  Just again as Noah and his family was saved . . .he was set aside "for" the regeneration of the earth "after" the destruction of the flood.

To the topic of covenants . . .for me, a covenant is not just a promise from one party to another.  Nor is it something given to an entire nation . . .but a covenant is representative.  It's like when our president sets down with the leader of another nation . . .and if that other leader verbally offends our president, they've verbally offended the nation he represents.

Yes, the covenant was between God and Abraham . . .but it affected ALL the offspring that came "through" Abraham as well.  It was a promise between God and one man, but that one man was representative to all men and women that would later be birthed through that one man.  God and Adam lived in a covenant relationship . . .Adam broke his end of the bargain and God reestablished it through Abraham and manifested that through Christ.

To the subject of what applies to Jews and what applies to Gentiles . . .a Jew can not be a Gentile physically, but a Gentile can "become" a Jew.  It's all about the circumcision . .which again, began with Abraham.  But the key for us to see here is that everything is spiritual and even though "physcially" I'm not a Jew . . .Spiritually, all who call on the name of the Lord become "grafted" into the spiritual Jewish family.  To men, Jews are those that are linked by blood to Abraham . . .To God, a Jew is a man who has entered into this covenant of promise with God.  The Old covenant is no longer in effect, but the New has replaced the Old.  The Old was based on the activity of men, the New is based on the rest of the Christ.  Paul even states that we all are spiritually Jews . . circumcised by the same spirit of God.

Quote from: Nathan on April 22, 2009, 07:00:05 PM
We've got like three or four threads going here in one.  A lot of great conversations and difficult to not get overwhelmed by the topics . . .really great stuff.

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

Not just saving us "from" but saving us "for" is also another facet of this subject as well.  As Noah entered the ark and was saved from the destructive nature of life on earth, we to, when we enter into Christ are then saved not only "from" the destructive forces at work in this life, but we are saved "for" the birthing of a new life in a new realm.  Just again as Noah and his family was saved . . .he was set aside "for" the regeneration of the earth "after" the destruction of the flood.

To the topic of covenants . . .for me, a covenant is not just a promise from one party to another.  Nor is it something given to an entire nation . . .but a covenant is representative.  It's like when our president sets down with the leader of another nation . . .and if that other leader verbally offends our president, they've verbally offended the nation he represents.

Yes, the covenant was between God and Abraham . . .but it affected ALL the offspring that came "through" Abraham as well.  It was a promise between God and one man, but that one man was representative to all men and women that would later be birthed through that one man.  God and Adam lived in a covenant relationship . . .Adam broke his end of the bargain and God reestablished it through Abraham and manifested that through Christ.

To the subject of what applies to Jews and what applies to Gentiles . . .a Jew can not be a Gentile physically, but a Gentile can "become" a Jew.  It's all about the circumcision . .which again, began with Abraham.  But the key for us to see here is that everything is spiritual and even though "physcially" I'm not a Jew . . .Spiritually, all who call on the name of the Lord become "grafted" into the spiritual Jewish family.  To men, Jews are those that are linked by blood to Abraham . . .To God, a Jew is a man who has entered into this covenant of promise with God.  The Old covenant is no longer in effect, but the New has replaced the Old.  The Old was based on the activity of men, the New is based on the rest of the Christ.  Paul even states that we all are spiritually Jews . . circumcised by the same spirit of God.

Does this get us into the danger of "replacement theology" though?

I guess my real question is that, if all believers become part of spiritual Israel, and all Israel is to be saved, then does that weaken the case for UR? If Jesus came only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel, then where does that leave everyone else?

For me, there's no question that we ALL are lost sheep . . .it's not about whether or not all are being brought back into the fold, it's about the process through which we go that brings us into the fold.  Through Christ we forego the lake of fire in the end because we've entered into the finished works of Christ before hand . . .so we're redeemed by the blood, not by the lake of fire.  We  are returned into the fold through Christ the shepherd.

If we have NOT made a conscious choice, redemption is still inevidible, but it's after the lake has been applied . . .or after we've been applied to the lake, how ever you choose to state it, we are returned to the fold either way, it's just that one is by the Father (lake of fire) the other is through the finished work of the Son.

Another piece to this for me is, the importance of being born again is not just about what may or may not happen to "me", but it's about what may or may not happen "through" me.  Being saved out of sin is to bring restoration of order within me . .realigning spirit and soul, replacing their priority to the orignal order of God.  In doing so, the act of salvation ushers me into a whole different arena where God begins birthing invisible things, through me, into this natural state.  So again, it's not just about me side-stepping the lake of fire, but it's also, if not even "more" about God manifesting his nature through me into others . . .so that we reproduce after our own kind . . .which as Paul then states, it's no longer "I" but Christ in me.

Quote from: Nathan on April 22, 2009, 07:00:05 PM

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

RE: 'it "must" be a pretty violent experience'

Doesn't that sound a little bit like the experience we go through in this world?

Anyone ever wonder if we are the ones who are in the lake of fire right now!?  ie. the elect have already been raised and are reigning with Christ, and the rest of us are in the lake of fire - and the lake of fire is our very existence in this world?  I know this is way out there and probably not supported by scripture so much but I wonder sometimes.

Peace...

Hi All,

Don't you think God is saving us "for" something instead of from something?  To me that makes more sense. For by Him and For Him were all things created. (Heb. 2:10) For it became Him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings.

CHB 

Quote from: legoman on April 22, 2009, 08:35:26 PM

Quote from: Nathan on April 22, 2009, 07:00:05 PM

For me . .first, the title of the thread . . .saved from what?  I've stated this before and I'll state it again . . .this place of redemption that ungodly men will have to experience in order to be purged, cleansed and purified before entering into the fulness of the kingdom, it "must" be a pretty violent experience otherwise, for me, Christ would not have gone through such great lengths of violence and bloodshed in place of us, so that we ourselves would not have to go through that terrible of an experience.  So for me, the salvation is "from" that lake of fire.

RE: 'it "must" be a pretty violent experience'

Doesn't that sound a little bit like the experience we go through in this world?

Anyone ever wonder if we are the ones who are in the lake of fire right now!?  ie. the elect have already been raised and are reigning with Christ, and the rest of us are in the lake of fire - and the lake of fire is our very existence in this world?  I know this is way out there and probably not supported by scripture so much but I wonder sometimes.

Peace...

legoman,

I have thought these very same things. It would account for all the verses that speak of this generation and Christ bringing the saints with him. I believe this life is the lake of fire, if not it, at least a part of it.

We are all over the place aren't we? Well, doesn't it all tie in together?

CHB

CHB,

Yes it is interesting.

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc. 

Not that I don't see us being judged in the here and now (ie. judgment begins with the house of God) - believers judged now, non-believers judged later etc.  We definitely go through trials by fire in this life, but I don't think that this world is the lake of fire (99% sure).

Surely God will have a way of preaching the word and the good news to those in the lake of fire.  Will it be done directly through the saints and Christ, or more subtly?

It does make me wonder what will the lake of fire be like.  Maybe it will be just another version of this world, except now those in it will see all the ramifications of their actions - and this will cause great shame and repentance.  Or perhaps it will be like a 3D video of our whole life played back before us, where we see everything we did and how we had sinned and hurt people in our own arrogance - again causing great shame and repentance.

But the really interesting scenario would be if the lake of fire was just another version of this same world, and the inhabitants of that world didn't realize they were in the lake of fire - they just thought they were living their life!  They would live on until they realized their predicament and humbled themself to come to Christ.

Either way we will be humbled, shamed, and eventually repent. 

But does every knee bow before or after that experience?  I don't know...

Quote from: CHB on April 22, 2009, 06:36:38 PMMartin, the thing is, and what I have been trying to say is. Why do we need a Covenant?

A relationship with the Christ of the Bible is only through the Covenant of His Blood, as even mentioned in Ephesians and Colossians if those are the only books of the New Testament you'll acknowledge of all of the books that I'll mention.  Every reference to the Blood is to that Covenant and we're saved by the Blood ALONE: Ephesians 1:7, Ephesians 2:13, Colossians 1:20, etc.  I guess you've never enjoyed what Hebrews talks about with having your soul anchored with that Covenant to where you cannot be defeated and you will not quit because you have it in the writing of His Blood.  You'll not have world overcoming faith in any kind of sense of the faith of the Kingdom that'll produce a hundredfold and beyond without the Covenant.  Perhaps you've never understood what a Covenant fully is if all you see are the rules and aren't able to distinguish between Mosaic law and God's saving Covenant through Abraham and Christ.  A really good book to read would be The Blood Covenant by H. Clay Trumbull. 

It's like having a marriage license.  I've been premaritally promiscuous before and I've been married before she died, and I definitely know the difference in the sanctity of the relationship, the blessing and security that you can't know in any other way on any other terms and with any other philosophy.  I may have only had it for one day, but I do know the difference.  There is no promise of the New Testament that's not the Covenant of Abraham and Christ.  There is no Biblical UR without that Covenant.  Try to separate it from that Covenant and you may come up with a New Age philosophy, but it won't be the UR of the Scriptures. 

Every drop of that New Testament, [since you seem to not like the word covenant,] is in Blood.  Not a page and not a line of it isn't Blood soaked with God's bond, God's integrity.  He'd cease to exist if any of it didn't happen in the lives of those genuinely standing on it and being conformed to the image of Christ Jesus.  He's sworn by Himself because there has been no one greater to swear by that so shall Abraham's seed be, and as Paul said in Romans, Galatians, Ephesians, and elsewhere, that's both a Jew and Gentile seed.  No condemnation and no separation is only by that Covenant.  That doesn't cheapen the no condemnation and the no separation.  That makes it all the more precious, potent, and intimate in a way that nothing else can.  He must heal the nations in our time because the Blood is crying out.  And the prayers and offerings of a number of us have become a memorial, or as the book of Revelation calls it, a pillar in His Temple before Him just as they did in the life of Cornelius.

And as far as Doc's question, going back to Paul's illustration in Romans of the branches that have been broken off.  They're still broken off and we're the vine and branches all of this time.  It's dispensationalism that'll try to indicate that God has a separate covenant with those that are broken off, but the Scriptures acknowledge no such thing.  It says they'll eventually be grafted back in.  As far as any kind of replacement theology, well...  We have totally replaced Israel in the time being.  But we're not regrafted into them.  They're regrafted into us.  Israel has no promise of a millenium.  Only the Church does because the millenium is the Global conquest of the Gospel in the earth.  Israel's been restored for no other reason and no other purpose than the Scriptures simply saying that the Kingdoms of this world have become the Kingdoms of our God and of His Christ and this is rectifying an issue over His own Holy Name's sake as He says about it in the Old Testament, and not because He's restoring the Mosaic Law to the shame of [and competition against] the Blood of Christ.  The only Blood acceptable to that Abrahamic Covenant is the Blood of Christ and the Blood of the saints that have died since then.

There's a lot of stuff that I said recently on the book of Revelation board that wasn't understood and that was even dismissed by some because they've never heard the cries of the Blood of Christ in our generation.  The cries of the world for Barabbas are louder to them than the cries of the Blood of Christ.  If you could hear that Blood at the screaming point now, you'd know that there is absolutely no other way and no other alternative than for the Church to triumph in history.  The Blood of Christ is the loudest thing in the heavens and earth right now and I'm surprised that I'm one of the few that can actually hear it.  And it's definitely saying much better things than the blood of Abel.  That Blood knows nothing else and no other way than for His Church to be glorious in these centuries in fulfillment of the prayer in John 17.

God's not saving all of Creation because He's too nice or too wise or because man's too finite, too good or whatever.  It's because nothing else will answer the Blood.  UR is the victory of God through Abraham's Seed at the Cross.  There is no other Biblical definition of the Biblical Universal Restoration.  Same thing with everything else I believe.  Postmillenialism is the victory of God through Abraham's Seed at the Cross.  Every other thing that I believe is the exact same equation: the victory of God through Abraham's Seed at the Cross, whether the health and prosperity message, God's Blood sworn oath to the animals in Hosea 2:18, etc.  The strength of the Cross is that Abrahamic Covenant.  Abraham saw His Day and rejoiced.  God wasn't breaking His Word to that old man. 

Every word that comes out of your mouth or mine ought to carry the same weight that we'd rather die than lie and we'll do anything up to and including death to keep our word.  I don't care what it's about and to whom.  If you give your word to somebody about something, from that they should know who you are, rather than what you meant to say.  Always say what you mean when you're giving your word to someone because all else proceeds from evil.  Most Bible students have zero idea what the Bible's saying when it talks about being upheld for one's integrity 'cause they're so leery of anything self righteous and can't understand the Biblical principle that if you get that serious about your word, then God will get that serious about your word and do His best to see to it that your word comes to pass.  Your word can be as precious to God as His own.  But God winds up hearing what most people, including most Christians, say everyday and has to just roll His eyes thinking "whatever..."

And when you give your word about something, think before you speak and offer no additional commentary on what you'd previously said with a "now what I really meant" in a way that tries to take any part of the implications back.  If you shot your mouth off without considering the context and clarity of your words and all of their potential ramifications, and what you said can be construed to mean your very last penny, then bless God, give it to 'em including the shirt off of your back, as Jesus said.  (He'll protect your hundredfold harvest.)  Go that second mile.  And even if you were abundantly clear about one mile only, be willing to go two to five or ten.  One of the problems that many people have with covenants these days, and I'm not directing this at anyone, but sincerely when you're dealing with society, the mainstream or even the denominational Churches out there: the biggest problem they have with covenants is that they know that their own covenant is no good. 

The proliferation of gangs whether in their teens or business men and women that go rogue with organized crime has been because of this human need for a covenant that's unbreakable, beyond any immediate benefits of some kind of an emotional release with vandalism or an obscene profit with something being kept off of the books.  And in that kind of an environment, for a season, they have that very thing where they're in it together, no one's a traitor but knows exactly what the others are intent upon doing, and they generally know what they're agreed upon, etc.  In other words, because we weren't covenant keepers in the Church, the world's gone where they could find or where they've thought they could find that kind of bond, fidelity, and camaraderie. 

A lot of this starts with parents whose word is absolutely no good to their kids.  They'll promise something, but something will come up or they won't feel the same way about doing it, so they'll set everything else as priority over their having given their word.  So those kids are like, "if mom and dad don't keep their word, then the Bible's gotta be a myth 'cause if those that I can see don't keep their word, then why should I believe there's Anyone out there that I can't see that keeps His??"  Trash in, trash out.  Aside from blatant divine intervention, few ever rise above the level of the character of their parents.  Keep a kid around lies and particularly with the excuse of lies to get ahead or because I'm older than you, or for self preservation, then all they'll raise are total liars that'll kill you and steal all you have as look at you.  If you don't magnify your word above your name, then neither will they.

I don't know if there's ever a time that I ever say anything where I'm not fully conscious that if I say that, I've just trapped myself and there won't be any way out ever.  If you never come to that place of being a Psalm 15:4 man or woman where you swear to your own hurt and don't ever change, then that covenant of the Blood of Christ that He died for will never ever take on the weight and the level of the supernatural in your life that you could have had in this life; that you could have had all of this time.

Quote from: legoman on April 22, 2009, 09:17:00 PM
CHB,

Yes it is interesting.

In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc. 

Not that I don't see us being judged in the here and now (ie. judgment begins with the house of God) - believers judged now, non-believers judged later etc.  We definitely go through trials by fire in this life, but I don't think that this world is the lake of fire (99% sure).

Surely God will have a way of preaching the word and the good news to those in the lake of fire.  Will it be done directly through the saints and Christ, or more subtly?

It does make me wonder what will the lake of fire be like.  Maybe it will be just another version of this world, except now those in it will see all the ramifications of their actions - and this will cause great shame and repentance.  Or perhaps it will be like a 3D video of our whole life played back before us, where we see everything we did and how we had sinned and hurt people in our own arrogance - again causing great shame and repentance.

But the really interesting scenario would be if the lake of fire was just another version of this same world, and the inhabitants of that world didn't realize they were in the lake of fire - they just thought they were living their life!  They would live on until they realized their predicament and humbled themself to come to Christ.

Either way we will be humbled, shamed, and eventually repent. 

But does every knee bow before or after that experience?  I don't know...

The only reason I would hesitate to say we're experiencing the lake of fire now is because it's essentially not for us . . .if your name is in the book of life, then the lake of fire is not for you . . .however . . hell is cast into the lake of fire . . .and for me . . .i do think we experience hell on earth for the purpose of bringing us to a stronger place in Christ than before . . . I guess that could lead to the question, what's the difference between hell and the lake of fire?  My answer would be . . .(tongue and cheeking it at this point) one is with Christ already, the other is to enable us to be with Christ

As far as the Hell in our lives, such as the case with Job's friends being intolerable during that time period that he was nevertheless guarding his tongue, one of my biggest questions right now that I'm still sorting through is the James chapter 3 Gehenna that we bring into our lives with abuses of the tongue that'll even turn the steering wheel of nature around us and of our bodies, according to James chapter 3 where we're speaking in ways contrary to how 1Peter 3 says to inherit the blessing.  And contrasting that with the "Hell" that'll come our way through persecution for living godly, for enjoying the hundredfolds in all of the areas of life that Jesus said we would, could, and should, and for anything else that the Scriptures indicate you might take some heat. 

Our Hell is either self generated, apparently, or it's generated by others and heaped upon us by them.  One's the heat of velocity towards the Kingdom, the image of Christ, and having the hundredfold, [all with the tongue rooted in His Covenant promises in the Scriptures and then acting according to the Holy Spirit's guidance on the specifics,] while the other one is from being in stationary orbit around all of the negativity of this present natural world.  If we would judge ourselves, we wouldn't be judged with the world, but when we judge ourselves we're chastened of the Lord so that we won't be judged with the world. 

Every time I hammer away with the Word in my private time regarding my healing, or the fullness of the blessing in my life, or the salvation of the world Scriptures, or those that God has pointed out to me that outline my calling or the renewal of my youth, then this passage that I've just quoted from 1Corinthians 11 says that I'm being chastened by the Lord so that I won't be judged with the world.  And as I'm overcoming by that, Revelation 2:26-27 goes on to say that I take my place with Him at the potter's wheel and as a shepherd of nations.  So that the Scripture that's written elsewhere, I'm thinking the third chapter of 1Corinthians, is fulfilled that he that is spiritual judges all things, but is himself rightly/accurately/fruitfully judged of no man/woman in this world, as you're entering into those things revealed to you by the Holy Spirit that haven't occured to the eyes and ears of the world thus far. 

The Gospel of John tells us to judge with righteous judgments.  And the Covenants that make up the Gospel are the predetermined righteous judgments.  I keep searching for the definitive Scripture that the Holy Spirit will use to tell me that you can completely and permanently throw the devil out of your own Garden of Eden in this life when you've reached a certain stage of growth and conformity with the image of Christ.  I'm seeing too much from the Scriptures of the possibility, but haven't found that singular Scripture that's definitive that doesn't involve taking together absolutely everything that God's showing me and piecing together for me as all of my "doctrines" of the Scriptures become increasingly more and more interdisciplinary. 

But the Holy Spirit still keeps telling me to keep digging with the biggest smile on His face as though if it were a rattle snake it would have gotten me 'cause it's just right there in front of my face, but it's not occured to me yet in that demension.  Perhaps John 14:12.  Perfected love, passion, and faith on the Scriptures can definitely give you long seasons of invincibility.  I've experienced those.  But I keep believing God for Him to open that door to me in the Scriptures of that permanent resting place, to where even if I'm never able to convince another human being that that's what that's specifically saying in the Word, but I'd still be perpetually enjoying the ongoing perpetual harvest of it inspite of the naysayers. 

There should come a point where when the ways of the Lord have fully become your ways that some of these external things for lessons and development shouldn't be necessary pressures, temptations to get distracted, or whatever.  After a while, if you're just not going to change from doing things His way, then it should be like "what's the point?" of anything adversarial in your life??  The Bible does say that when a man's ways please the Lord that He causes even his enemies to be at peace with him.  Perhaps that's the verse I've been trying to light upon, but couldn't quite put my finger on.  There should be a table before us in the presence of our enemies after a certain point and not just spiritual granades, machine guns, etc. going on all of the time. 

Rest in the book of Hebrews should mean actual rest, even as He's ceased from His works and has rested, and the implication of the book of Hebrews to me is that that's what all of the warfare in this life is about.  It is to get to that place where you're not just restful in your mind and keeping all of your cares cast upon Him, but where there aren't flare ups of darkness within eyesight of you with obvious exceptions that if you decide to feed on the world's pornographic news programs that are meant to give you a steady diet of all that the devil's trying to accomplish and are about nothing else, 'cept for the devil's occasional perverse commentary on a fellow brother or sister in Christ that does nothing else except for divide the Body, or the segments of the Body that'll fall for it being divided from those segments of the Body that won't fall for it.

Quote from: martincisneros
And when you give your word about something, think before you speak and offer no additional commentary on what you'd previously said with a "now what I really meant" in a way that tries to take any part of the implications back.  If you shot your mouth off without considering the context and clarity of your words and all of their potential ramifications,

Well.   :mshock:  I was trying to say what I was saying, so you could understand what I was talking about. I certainly didn't intend to take back any thing I said. But you didn't get it, so never mind.  :bigGrin: You never explained the verses I ask for you to explain. Why?

I could say a lot more about what you wrote and a lot more about the Covenants but I am going to just leave it alone.  

CHB

I was addressing integrity issues in the Body and the place of Covenant in that rather than attacking you.  Sorry if you misunderstood me as attacking you.  That's never my intent.

Quote from: legoman
In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc.

Hi,

Could it be that this part hasn't been fulfilled yet? The GWT judgment will occur at the end, right?  I don't think ever thing happens at the same time.

CHB

One of these days I'm gonna have to pay someone to "dumb down" this conversation so I can understand it.  :mshock:

Quote from: CHB on April 23, 2009, 12:38:17 AM

Quote from: legoman
In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc.

Hi,

Could it be that this part hasn't been fulfilled yet? The GWT judgment will occur at the end, right?  I don't think ever thing happens at the same time.

CHB

Possibly.  I have a hard time piecing together from scripture when exactly everything occurs:

GWT judgment
lake of fire
every knee bows

What is the order?  From Rev it looks like lake of fire is after GWT, but Revelations is all symbols and not necessarily in linear order.

I've never been able to buy into this thing that some people hold to of this life being the Lake of Fire, however, I wouldn't immediately, without the Holy Spirit giving me further light, argue against this life being the Great White Throne Judgment.  The Books are opened and being opened all of the time further and further to those that are discipled by the Holy Spirit with the Holy Bible.  Each man is being judged according to his works as many of my posts have always seemed to be abundantly clear about.  And those who are saying things other than what's in the Scriptures, and from the Scriptures God's leadings through the Holy Spirit are having a really bad ending in this life, no matter how saintly their character, how sweet they are to be around, etc.  Many, inspite of giving up their bodies to be burned without Scripturally revealed Covenant love are still hearing that "depart from Me, I never knew you" because they're not building their lives on the rock of the Scriptures and what the Scriptures are manifesting of His rulership.  So, they're having to get in their Bibles and then come back into the Throne Room the correct way in the way the Scriptures lay out for proper protocols with their High Priest with the promises of the Word.

Many are having a really bad ending with being burned up with diseases and the carnal mind's attempts at treating them independent of the Word.  Or are having a really bad ending in poverty.  But again, the same endings for loved ones and enemies alike that aren't finding their name written in the promises and principles of the Scriptures that have always been abundantly clear to me to be the Lamb's Book of Life besides what's labeled by many as Word of Faith or Postmillenialism.  Those are just theological and "movement" terms identifying the building of the momentum of something in segments of the Body, but to me it's simply people finding their names in the Lamb's Book of Life of the Covenants of the Scriptures.  But as someone said, anything we jump over the millenium regarding like that, whether with those claiming that this is the Lake of Fire, or my query as to whether this life may be the White Throne Judgment does seem to upset the traditional understanding of the ordering of the events. 

But, you could Scripturally call the millenium that time period when more and more people up to and including all of mankind on the earth are walking by faith and not by sight and being equipped by the Holy Spirit with the Scriptures for every good work.  There's a massive move of the Holy Spirit and has been for the last 60+ years among those of us who are alive and remain to be caught up to meet the Lord in the air and to so ever be with Him seated in heavenly places far above all of this natural domain with the Scriptures, as the Books of His Covenants are being opened.  And those of us who've progressed further have caught the vision of the total recreation of this world with the Gospel out of the darkness that's been upon the face of the deep and the formlessness and void that we've seen around us in the natural order of things.

---

One of these days I'll catch my typos while I'm still typing something.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 23, 2009, 12:32:13 AM
I was addressing...issues

At the bottom of your posts you have an itty bitty, teeny tiny, eenie weenie something that didn't enlarge in my word processer.  It does expand immediately on its own when pasted in these Post reply boxes.  For those who wonder, it's 2 Corinthians 2:14.  What I'm curious about Maritin, is why so small?  Are you signaling that you're working with subatomic particles now? that whoever has, more shall be given him? that you have an affinity with the widow's mite? what?!

LOL!  Actually 'cause many are squinting at it anyway.

Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 01:50:30 AM

Quote from: CHB on April 23, 2009, 12:38:17 AM

Quote from: legoman
In most ways I don't think this life is the lake of fire, otherwise when did the GWT judgement occur?  When did everyone bow before Christ?  etc.

Hi,

Could it be that this part hasn't been fulfilled yet? The GWT judgment will occur at the end, right?  I don't think ever thing happens at the same time.

CHB

Possibly.  I have a hard time piecing together from scripture when exactly everything occurs:

GWT judgment
lake of fire
every knee bows

What is the order?  From Rev it looks like lake of fire is after GWT, but Revelations is all symbols and not necessarily in linear order.

Another view that might sound ridiculous to some is, what if all of these things are happening now and will continue right up till all is in all?

Take for instance, we are being judged now, knees are bowing every day, every man in his own order. It says everyone will be sprinkled with fire. We are going through fiery trials all the time.   According to (Rev.7:14) (Rev, 20:11-13) the GWT judgment is after the tribulation, and before the death of death which is cast into the lake of fire. Some believe the tribulation has already happened and if Christ has paid for all sin why will we be judged again, wasn't Christ judged for us?

Who is to say this lake of fire didn't already exist? Maybe it exists even now? It doesn't say this lake of fire only exist at the end.

These are just some thoughts I have about it all, nothing concrete.

CHB

QuoteWho is to say this lake of fire didn't already exist? Maybe it exists even now? It doesn't say this lake of fire only exist at the end.

Agreed. It only says "...was prepared for the devil and his angels.."
Could be 5 minutes ago but also 5 milenia ago.
A bigger problem I have with that verse is that it sounds like God was caught by suprise and had to change His plan. I read the verse as: "...was prepared for the devil and his angels but now it will also be used for mankind"

---

About the remaining part of your post; Are you saying LoF, life, GWT, torment are all taking place right now?(parallel)

QuoteSome believe the tribulation has already happened and if Christ has paid for all sin why will we be judged again, wasn't Christ judged for us?

"I came not to judge the world but to save the world" I wonder if that has a timelimit? If not your assumption could be true because Jesus will never judge. And there can be no GWT without judgement.

"if the days weren't shorted no flesh would remain"
That verse is a bit problematic in the light of the above. If it is taking place for nearly 2000 years what is the shortening about?

Hi WhiteWings,

You have some good questions. Lets keep digging, the more we all share on this the more light will be illuminated. Maybe we need a new thread, I don't know?

I looked up all the references to fire but I think I need to study more on this.

You asked if I thought the Lake of Fire, life, GWT judgment, were all taking place right now?  This was what I was wondering about? I am not sure but why couldn't it be? If the wages of sin is death, period and Jesus died for us all, why do we have to be judged, wouldn't that take away from what Jesus accomplished. If we died, was buried, then resurrected with Him, what is left? Now, does this apply to everyone? Did Jesus only die for some of us?  Lots of questions to be answered.

CHB



CHB

Quote from: CHB on April 23, 2009, 09:05:46 PM
You asked if I thought the Lake of Fire, life, GWT judgment, were all taking place right now?  This was what I was wondering about? I am not sure but why couldn't it be?

Basicly I'm willing to accept any interpretation. Including yours.
Until I see verses that seem to contradict that. IF I didn't pull the verses out of context! That's not uncommon so you still have my full attention. So lets continue.

QuoteIf the wages of sin is death, period and Jesus died for us all, why do we have to be judged, wouldn't that take away from what Jesus accomplished.

Jesus paid and we go free. The main question for what exactly did He pay.
All sinned. Wages of sin is eternal death. Jesus payed for that so no more eternal death.
But I think He didn't pay to keep us out of LoF. We still need some good cleaning before we enter heaven.
Revelation takes place after Jesus died. And Revelation clearly speaks about being judged and cast into LoF.
So I think LoF is still on the menu.
In the future or right now?
Perhaps things changed when Jesus died but the witch of Endor passage speaks of disturbing rest. That sounds like still being dead. So at that point things weren't happening all at once. Unless...... rest was Heavinlt rest/peace.
Think not but.... :dontknow:

QuoteMaybe we need a new thread, I don't know?

Perhaps yes. Kinda oftopic. Maybe  a mod can split up the thread?

It's certainly possible to my mind that some or all components of all of those things could be occurring now. Revelation was mainly of things shortly to come to pass, and the way I read that is that the entire book of Revelation could at least begin to occur within the lifetime of those it was originally written to, particularly because of its highly symbolic and spiritual nature. Perhaps the lake of fire and GWT judgments don't occur until after our physical deaths, but perhaps those are on an individual rather than collective basis, as many of us were taught to view it. I think that to make that approach work, you'd have to read almost the entire book of Revelation as a series of purely spiritual events. Even then, there would still be a few things left that clearly have not been fulfilled to completion yet. For example, we clearly have not seen the last enemy, death, eliminated completely.

QuoteFor example, we clearly have not seen the last enemy, death, eliminated completely.

Not so sure about that.
If other component of Revelation can take part simultationsly why not the death part?
Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this.  I know I wonder this myself, but I'm pretty sure we are not in the lake of fire now.  We go through trials of fire now - YES.  But the lake of fire now?  Not so much...

Matt 25:41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:
43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.
44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?
45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

For example Matt 25:41 has not happened yet, and neither has verse 44 and 45.  I have always viewed these verses fairly literally.  Meaning there will come a day when Jesus will seperate us into 2 groups, and some will ask the questions in verse 44, and Jesus will tell them the answer in verse 45.

Based on this, it seems to me those in the lake of fire will know they are in the lake of fire.  Also the lake of fire age is also referred to as "eonian shame" - so those in it will feel lots of shame for what they have done.

Regarding judgment happening right now - yes believers are judged in this life, and unbelievers later.  "Judgement must begin at the house of God". Ray Smith gets into this in detail here, ie. how we will be judged in this life if we are a follower of Christ:

http://bible-truths.com/lake3.html

The scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 10:06:13 PM
I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this. 

For me personally it's good to stray from the scripture. It does no harm but only good. (for me)
When you start straying you will find more and more conflicting verses (I mentioned a few in the previous posts)
That way I'm pushed back to the scriptures. But while straying I learned a little.

QuoteThe scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

I'm also in favour of the classical interpretation. It's the easiest one to understand :winkgrin:

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:15:03 PM

Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 10:06:13 PM
I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this. 

For me personally it's good to stray from the scripture. It does no harm but only good. (for me)
When you start straying you will find more and more conflicting verses (I mentioned a few in the previous posts)
That way I'm pushed back to the scriptures. But while straying I learned a little.

QuoteThe scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

I'm also in favour of the classical interpretation. It's the easiest one to understand :winkgrin:

Yes straying is interesting if we do not lose focus of the scriptures.

For me, my original point was something like this:

What if after the GWT we are sentenced to the lake of fire.  And we discover that the "sentence of the lake of fire" is really to live our life over again, only this time we will learn what we didn't learn the first time around.  So not everything will go the way it did the first time.  And on top of that while we are in the lake of fire, we won't even realize that we are living our "sentence of the lake of fire".

If we were actually in such a predicament... how would we know it?  ie. we are in the lake of fire right now and don't even know it.

It would make a good plot for a movie at least  :laughing7:

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:00:23 PM

QuoteFor example, we clearly have not seen the last enemy, death, eliminated completely.

Not so sure about that.
If other component of Revelation can take part simultationsly why not the death part?
Those in Heaven don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Well, we still die, don't we?

Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 10:22:27 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:15:03 PM

Quote from: legoman on April 23, 2009, 10:06:13 PM
I think we need to be careful to not stray to far from scripture with this. 

For me personally it's good to stray from the scripture. It does no harm but only good. (for me)
When you start straying you will find more and more conflicting verses (I mentioned a few in the previous posts)
That way I'm pushed back to the scriptures. But while straying I learned a little.

QuoteThe scriptural study done in that article would indicate we are not in the lake of fire... although it may feel that way sometimes...

I'm also in favour of the classical interpretation. It's the easiest one to understand :winkgrin:

Yes straying is interesting if we do not lose focus of the scriptures.

For me, my original point was something like this:

What if after the GWT we are sentenced to the lake of fire.  And we discover that the "sentence of the lake of fire" is really to live our life over again, only this time we will learn what we didn't learn the first time around.  So not everything will go the way it did the first time.  And on top of that while we are in the lake of fire, we won't even realize that we are living our "sentence of the lake of fire".

If we were actually in such a predicament... how would we know it?  ie. we are in the lake of fire right now and don't even know it.

It would make a good plot for a movie at least  :laughing7:

The problem with that is, it starts getting you into reincarnation. Not to mention that if death and hades are to be thrown into it to be destroyed by it, that it's such a tangibly physical thing as our life here. It also doesn't make sense on the grounds that the Revelation is the first time (indeed the only time) we hear of such a thing as the LOF.

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

QuoteThose in Heaven  don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:35:50 PM

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

QuoteThose in Heaven  don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Yes, but the point of Revelation is that death in any form does not occur at all anymore at a certain point. It obviously still does, so...

Quote from: Doc on April 23, 2009, 10:33:04 PM

The problem with that is, it starts getting you into reincarnation. Not to mention that if death and hades are to be thrown into it to be destroyed by it, that it's such a tangibly physical thing as our life here. It also doesn't make sense on the grounds that the Revelation is the first time (indeed the only time) we hear of such a thing as the LOF.

Yeah I sort of thought of that after I posted.  But that wasn't necessarily so much of the focus.  Truthfully we don't know what the lake of fire experience will be.  This is what we know for sure (feel free to add/correct me):
- many will be thrown into it
- it is composed of God's consuming fire, which may include the chosen elect
- it will be done in the presence of the lamb
- it will be for punishment/correction
- it will be tormenting
- it will cause shame
- it will lead to repentance

Did I forget anything?

All of that is pretty vague with respect to the specific experience one would get.  All of the above could describe some days I've had!   :laughing7:  But that's probably just due to the general similarity of God's judgments, which includes the judgments that do actually happen in this life.

So given the vagueness of the above, I am open to it being something like "another" life - although its much more likely that the particpants will be fully aware of their predicament (unlike reincarnation).  Thus the shame and the torment.

BTW I don't think it will be anything like literal physical fire.  But more something like this:  "Remember that guy you were really mean to at work one day?  Well this is what happened after you were really mean to him..." and then you will realize the full consequence of your actions and sin.  And this will be done for every sin you have ever done... etc. It will be utterly shameful.  Right now that is my best guess of what the lake of fire will really be like.

Peace.

Quote from: Doc on April 23, 2009, 10:41:03 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:35:50 PM

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

QuoteThose in Heaven  don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Yes, but the point of Revelation is that death in any form does not occur at all anymore at a certain point. It obviously still does, so...

Agreed.
But when is that certain point?
Th eidea put forward elsewhere in the thread is that several things can take place at the same time.
I continued in that line of thought that daed is abolished for those that are in the afterlife.
I hope you now understand what I mean. I want to add this is not the most obvious explanation for Revelation for me.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:35:50 PM

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

:cloud9: rofl.......me, too..... :goodone:

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:55:19 PM

Quote from: Doc on April 23, 2009, 10:41:03 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 10:35:50 PM

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

'm not sure Doc. I have managed to avoid it until now :winkgrin:

QuoteWell, we still die, don't we?

Keyword: we.

QuoteThose in Heaven  don't die. So for the death lost its sting.

Keywords: Those in Heaven

See the difference?

Yes, but the point of Revelation is that death in any form does not occur at all anymore at a certain point. It obviously still does, so...

Agreed.
But when is that certain point?
Th eidea put forward elsewhere in the thread is that several things can take place at the same time.
I continued in that line of thought that daed is abolished for those that are in the afterlife.
I hope you now understand what I mean. I want to add this is not the most obvious explanation for Revelation for me.

Yes, that's the $60,000 question.

Quote from: legoman
What if after the GWT we are sentenced to the lake of fire.  And we discover that the "sentence of the lake of fire" is really to live our life over again, only this time we will learn what we didn't learn the first time around.  So not everything will go the way it did the first time.  And on top of that while we are in the lake of fire, we won't even realize that we are living our "sentence of the lake of fire".

Would you say this could be the second death then? If you have a second life wouldn't you have a second death? That is the first thing that came to mind when I read this. Where does it say we will know we are in the LOF?

CHB

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 23, 2009, 09:39:35 PMJesus paid and we go free. The main question for what exactly did He pay.
All sinned. Wages of sin is eternal death. Jesus payed for that so no more eternal death.
But I think He didn't pay to keep us out of LoF. We still need some good cleaning before we enter heaven.
Revelation takes place after Jesus died. And Revelation clearly speaks about being judged and cast into LoF.

Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

Quote from: WhiteWings
So I think LoF is still on the menu.
In the future or right now?

It could be both. In (Matt. 25:41) it says, middle of verse... "depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting {aion} fire, prepared... {past tense}...for the devil and his angels".    When was it prepared and is it, or was it, being used in Jesus' day?

Quote from: WhiteWings
Perhaps things changed when Jesus died but the witch of Endor passage speaks of disturbing rest. That sounds like still being dead. So at that point things weren't happening all at once. Unless...... rest was Heavinlt rest/peace.
Think not but.... :dontknow:

I believe a lot of things did change after Jesus died and was resurrected. When you read Revelations and look up a lot of the references you can find a lot of the same things in the Old Testament.

CHB

What happens then, to "it is appointed unto (the) men once to die, and after that the judgment"?

I'm still confused as to whether that passage was talking about specific men in a specific context, or is to be applied to all men? Some here promote one view, others the traditional understanding of that verse.


I don't think it explicitly states that those there will know they're in the LOF, but it is rather implied by the "smoke of their torment" comment.

Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2009, 01:14:08 AMYes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

Yes, we've been in the Kingdom for 2000 years ever since Jesus came.  The passage in Zechariah that's cited on it says "here's your King riding a donkey...."  We're not to wait 'til some future age for righteousness, peace, and joy in the Holy Spirit.  The Kingdom was within them then, and has never been yanked out of us.  And as Jesus said, the whole Kingdom is compared to the lifecyle of a seed.  I hadn't noticed that before, that if someone was a dispensationalist that that would be a hiding place from much of what I was saying about sowing and reaping 'cause of the gap theory they hold to on the arrival of the Kingdom, just like they unbiblically gap everything else, like Daniel's 70th week, the resurrection of the righteous and the wicked, the creation with trying to insert a gap into the first few verses of Genesis, etc.  All of the various gap theories held to by dispensationalists have been too full of Biblical gaps ever since I started seeing through them three years ago.  What is it, like nearly 20 times that "this generation" comes up in the Gospels and in every other instance it means that first century generation, but in Matthew 24 we supposedly know better that that's thousands of years later??  I'm genuinely not slamming anyone when I bring up those inconsistencies on this thread and on the book of Revelation board 'cause as I've said repeatedly, I had those gaps in my theology until 3 years ago, and with my having read the New Testament a couple of times a week for years, I evidently had gaps in my intelligence to have not seen through it any earlier than when the Holy Spirit started blurting it out of me in my verbal preaching to others three years ago.  When Jesus said that some wouldn't taste of death until they saw the Kingdom come in that generation, it's because it happened.  In the New Testament, God doesn't react to unbelief.  He just keeps proactively moving forward with the program He's had in mind for thousands of years 'cause once the Blood was shed and the devil was bound so that we could start spoiling his house of every soul, then there hasn't been a reason to withhold anything.  We've been delivered from the authority of darkness and have been translated into the Kingdom of God's dear Son, according to Colossians.

Quote from: Doc on April 24, 2009, 01:14:48 AM
What happens then, to "it is appointed unto (the) men once to die, and after that the judgment"?

I'm still confused as to whether that passage was talking about specific men in a specific context, or is to be applied to all men? Some here promote one view, others the traditional understanding of that verse.

All men.

All men die once and then are judged.  The trick is this verse is talking about spiritual death.

Believers have their spiritual death in this life, are judged, and then are reborn ("born again" you might say).

Unbelievers have their spiritual death in/before the lake of fire, are judged (via the lake of fire), and then are reborn.

Same process for everybody, just different timing for the elect (believers now).

JMHO.

Cheers,
Legoman

Quote from: Doc on April 24, 2009, 01:14:48 AM
I don't think it explicitly states that those there will know they're in the LOF, but it is rather implied by the "smoke of their torment" comment.

It could be implied because they are "tormented in the presence of the lamb" - does that mean they are literally aware of Christ's presence?

Also they go away to "eonian shame" - so they will realize the shame of it all.

Legoman

Quote from: legoman on April 24, 2009, 01:39:11 AM

Quote from: Doc on April 24, 2009, 01:14:48 AM
I don't think it explicitly states that those there will know they're in the LOF, but it is rather implied by the "smoke of their torment" comment.

It could be implied because they are "tormented in the presence of the lamb" - does that mean they are literally aware of Christ's presence?

Also they go away to "eonian shame" - so they will realize the shame of it all.

Legoman

Legoman,

Could that not still apply now? I mean, we have shame of the things we do now. When I think back on some things that I have done in my life I am ashamed and I am sure most people are. Not saying that you are not right. I am just reading and throwing out some thoughts that I have had and trying to figure this whole thing out too.

Martin,

I am leaning toward a belief that a resurrection occured in 70AD and Christ returning at that time. I do believe Christ will return again and that there are still things to be fulfilled but there are so many verses that would be solved it this were the case. Do dispensationalists believe this too?  :dontknow:


CHB

Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 01:32:09 AMI evidently had gaps in my intelligence to have not seen through it any earlier than when...

Okay, I see one of the things I've been doing in my presentation style that some may have thought was me gunning for them.  'Cause I'm still beating myself up on an area of tradition that I clung to for as long as I did, I guess I unwittingly convey that anyone that's holding to that perspective is as dumb as I view myself to have been back in the day.  I genuinely don't extrapolate that because I'll feel that way about myself, that therefore everyone else who holds to a differing view of Scripture is the least bit dim witted or anything like that.  Furthest thing from my thinking and my feelings, sincerely. 

I still regard Kenneth Copeland as my spiritual dad, in the way that St. Paul fathered the Corinthians, Timothy, Onesimus, Titus, and many others.  But he's still dispensational, premillenial, ET, pretrib rapture, Cosmic Rambo return rather than taking Revelation 19 as the vision that it is that John was seeing in heaven, etc.  He hunts and fishes to my chagrin, etc.  But God gave me way too much through him of my initial understandings of Scripture and only a fool thinks they've genuinely outgrown their parents, whether naturally or spiritually.  God knew 20 years ago what I now know and still chose that route for getting me to where I'm at. 

I have what others would view as virtually impossible demands upon myself because I not only know the level of the gift of God in me, but my genetic potential.  I expect nothing but the best out of me, and that's not to say that that's not possible from others.  But I won't tolerate less from me after all that God's done in my life.  Not just as a love offering to Him, but my knowledge of the specifics of how deep grace has ran through me and what it's done and what's always at my command of specifics for getting my calling accomplished -- which includes being a few steps ahead of the rest.  It's not a vanity, though it may have lent itself to vanity 12 years ago when God outlined the specifics to me from 1Thessalonians 3:8-13 and I genuinely thought I was practically there with all truth then.  But the following decade very rapidly curtailed my presumption. 

But my attitude is [genuinely] that I can learn from anyone.  And when I bump into a dispensationalist, or into any contrary viewpoint of the Scriptures, that's where I'm coming from.  It's a "SHOW ME" attitude rather than a "you idiot" attitude.  And if I've ever come across that way to anybody at any time on any thread, as though I were belittling anyone, my deepest deepst apologies are yours.  I'm just coming at it from a "just show it to me in the Book, and that it's consistently in the Book and I'll recant all I've said up until now that's been the opposite."  And that goes for any subject you can think of, including ET and speciesism.  Just show it to me to be consistently taught [with no translational or other Biblical issues] in the Covenants that I regard to be a part of the New Covenant and it'll suffice.  For anyone that's ever gotten all of the way through Winchester's Dialogues (i.e. The Universal Restoration), my attitude is always the exact same as his, that I don't consider myself married to any system of theology, but will, with sufficient Biblical evidence, make the adjustments in what I've been saying thus far.  That's on any area of Biblical doctrine.

Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2009, 01:56:24 AMI am leaning toward a belief that a resurrection occured in 70AD and Christ returning at that time. I do believe Christ will return again and that there are still things to be fulfilled but there are so many verses that would be solved it this were the case. Do dispensationalists believe this too?  :dontknow:

Without getting into the full wikipedia article on dispensationalists and their distinctives and other things that you can find elsewhere online: For clarity, an example of dispensationalists would be the Concordant crowd: Tony Nungesser (who posts here sometimes), Martin Zender, etc.  These ideas of premill, pretrib rapture, separate Gospels to Israel and the Church (though not all dispensationalists go that far), the last writings of the New Testament being superior to the other writings of the Bible and supposedly teaching something distinct from them (though again, not all Dispensationalists go that far), Daniel's 70th week being yet to come, the rise of a literal personified AntiChrist, etc.  In the ET camp it would be Hal Lindsey, Perry Stone, Jack Van Impe, Ed Hindson, Grant Jeffrey (i.e. basically the TBN eschatology crowd). 

Now, where you're telling me that you're leaning would be partial preterism, that you still see many areas of prophecy yet to be fulfilled, but that many of the prophecies that many of the above folks that I've mentioned would still anticipate have already been fulfilled.  Few people go into the direction of partial preterism without becoming Postmillenialists, although it's possible for Postmillenialists to be futurists.  I've only within the last few weeks accepted partial preterism from finally having gotten a broadband internet connection and being able to watch what I could find on YouTube by Kenneth Gentry and Gary DeMar.  I believe they still likely lean towards ET and they're Calvinists, but they're partial preterist Postmillenialists that are good at pointing out the flaws in the dispensational system in a nonaccusatory way 'cause they've obviously been at it for years. 

I was initially going to look at the writings of David Chilton as an example of a Postmillenialist that's UR, but when I found out that he was total, full preterist towards the end, claiming that absolutely all of the prophecies of the Bible have already been fulfilled, I decided not to jump into the Titanic with him on that.  There's a 5 part audio by Kenneth Gentry on YouTube pointing out the Biblical errors of full preterists (including denying bodily resurrection altogether), and there's also about 25 video segments of his on "The Beast of Revelation Identified" that makes Nero the most likely suspect for 666, but with actual stuff from within the Book of Revelation regarding the number of emperors there had been up until then, the one that was, and the one that was yet to come. 

He gets more detailed than anything I'd seen presented on these boards thus far and Dr Gentry is evidently a very prolific writer along these lines who even has audio and DVDs that he offers at his site.  Again, a Calvinist, so if you like his stuff on YouTube it doesn't necessarily mean every title at his main website is going to be totally choice stuff.  But as long as you're aware of that, there's probably some really good stuff over there, from what I've seen so far of his online articles and those videos I've gotten to recently see.  Gary DeMar's stuff on YouTube seems to be excerpts from a video called the Harrowing of Hell.  I'd previously read articles by him online as I was googling Postmillenialism, but it was the first time I'd gotten to see and hear the guy.  So the videos from those two that I've seen on YouTube may be one of the reasons why over the last 4 to 6 weeks or so that I've really really dug my heels in on this Postmillenialism, that's the view of the conquest of human history with the preaching of the Gospel.

Again, my first aquaintance with Kenneth Gentry and Gary DeMar was through online articles if anyone finds YouTube videos problematic for their computer internet speed, happen to be hard of hearing and aren't sure if the audio could be turned up enough (I was personally able to get quite loud with it, but again, it'll depend on the speakers you have), or for any other reason, then just googling those names as well as looking at Postmillenialism and other search terms you'd bump into along the way would probably be helpful, plus I've posted some stuff on the book of Revelation board specifically about Postmillenialism.  I'm saying this 'cause I believe this thread's on one of the publicly viewable boards and for anyone new to the forum, they might not know other stuff's available and links are provided on the forum elsewhere.  Gary Amirault might even be able to point anyone in the direction of anything good on partial preterism and Postmillenialism 'cause he crossed those bridges years before I did.  And it was these eschatological differences that caused him to take some heat for alleged antisemitism a few years back.  He doesn't have a hateful gene in his body and he's got a Jewish wife, but when someone's tunnel visioned on Israel being more important than the Church in Bible prophecy, etc. (or carrying that attitude even if not articulating it quite that way) then anything that challenges Israel's centrality to future fulfillments of prophecy is going to get swatted at by those that are just completely unfamiliar with the Biblical issues being raised.

For those that don't know Michelle Amirault, Gary's wife, she's given her video testimony before.  You can find it on the home page of this website, towards the bottom of the page:  http://wisefire.tv (http://wisefire.tv)  Actually, the video was right at the top center of the site when I just visited the link.

(I said something like this in The Book of Revelation board here somewhere; but, given the off-topic discussion, it seems good to share it again.)

The sentence beginning at verse 3 of 1 Peter 1 contains the title of the the book of "the revelation of Jesus Christ" in the end of v.7 and culminates with "...the consummation of your faith, the salvation of your souls." (v.9)  Consider that it says the end of our faith is the salvation of our souls.  When your soul, that is your thought will and emotions are subjected to, in alignment with and following the Spirit, and your soul is equipped and ready to be activated by the Spirit, you have arrived where your faith is intended to lead.  It is the outcome of your faith.

My reason for pointing this out is that I understand The Book of The Revelation (Unveiling) of Jesus Christ to be something that re-programs your mind to perceive what is in the heavenlies that is producing the realm of appearances in which many are still asleep.  I consider it to be the next step beyond prophecy; so, while it functions at times prophetically, it is actually apocalyptic, meaning revelatory.  While Academics have pointed out that it is an "Apocalypse," none of them I've found quite cross the line to point out its function in realigning your soul, leaving it instead as a literary genre.  God's foremost work is inward.  His blessing for those who read or hear read this culminating book of Scripture, the one into which all the rest flows, includes an elevation  of consciousness through restructuring it to correspond more accurately with reality as God perceives it.  This is important to make possible The Revelation of Jesus Christ.  It is important for our faith into Him to be brought to culmination in our psyche.  Without a passion corresponding with His, how can we be moved with compassion that the miraculous work of the Father to meet the needs of those around us be our manifest fellowship, that which our hands have handled of the Word of Life?  Where ever He manifests, however the glory, if you do not comprehend, even if you do perceive, there can be no revelation.  God's "Unveiling" is in your minds.  It is the first thing Jesus preaches, metanoia, "change your minds."  It is the end of your faith.

For this thread perhaps we could say we are being saved from the darkness of the carnal mind for the light of life.

Exactly, I've always found it odd when people have said around here that the soul is lost from Christians at death.  Not if you did what you were supposed to have done with it! and took charge of it with His Covenants and ran the unbelief out of it.  The Bible doesn't teach the loss of the soul.  It teaches the salvation of it.  Our souls are only required of us by the devil when he's allowed to keep the Word from producing a harvest through it.  And the Scriptures plainly tell us in Mark 4 the five things that he brings as pressures to try to steal the seed so that it won't produce.  Fear's the bottomline of strife and of everything else the devil uses to steal the Word and gain mastery of the soul so that the Scriptures say they're taken captive of him at his will to do his pleasures at his discretion.  But it's not hard to grab the Scriptures and run him off with them.  Otherwise, he jerks their quareling string like a puppet or a wind up toy. 

One of his favorite devises is to get people thinking they can have the Word without the Word.  It's the Scriptures that become flesh in you.  Not anything else.  Not any ideas and not the anointing by itself.  And I'd put my trips to the third heaven against anybody's.  When you go there, He points you right back at the Book and proves everything to you by the Book by the mouth of two or three or more witnesses.  Anything else is AntiChrist.  Those that say that they walk in Him must walk as He walked, according to 1John 2:6 and He claimed the sole basis of His origin, His calling, His authority, His power, His wisdom, His place in teaching others, His time with His heavenly Father, His destiny, and His view for restructuring Jewish society initially and then later for restructuring the nations upon the Scriptures.

Quote from: reFORMer on April 24, 2009, 04:03:33 AMWithout a passion corresponding with His, how can we be moved with compassion that the miraculous work of the Father to meet the needs of those around us be our manifest fellowship, that which our hands have handled of the Word of Life?  Where ever He manifests, however the glory, if you do not comprehend, even if you do perceive, there can be no revelation.

Amen.  We are being saved from our thoughts and for His.  When a man's ways please the Lord (i.e. when he's walking by faith 'cause of Hebrews 11:6), He makes even His enemies to be at peace with him, i.e. to be at the Blood of Christ with him 'cause of peace having been made through the Blood of His Cross according to Colossians 1:20, which was promised in Isaiah 54.  When this is realized in a man, what you've said, reFORMer, then God's firm imperative in Isaiah 54 is to build a bigger house.  Then look out!! All thy children shall be taught of the Lord and great shall be the peace of thy children.  Fear, oppression, and terror can gather together, but they're not by Me, saith the Lord.  All of those things will fall for your sake.  Every tongue that rises against you in judgment shall fall for your sake.  This is the heritage of the servants of the Lord and their righteousness is of Me, saith the Lord.  I've gotta go pray.

Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2009, 01:14:08 AM
Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

:thumbsup:
I really like that bold part. Gonna be an entry in my organizer. Doesn't make things more logical for me but at least it gives a good starting point.
I assume tribulation is what takes place on earth in this life. LoF in the afterlife could be called tribulation too I guess.

"Saved" from what?
Saved from the sin.

Then what is sin?
Sin is the separation of men from God.

Then what is the separation from God?
That is "no retaining God in one's knowledge."

What is "no retaining God?"
....questions will go on this way endlessly.

If someone realizes he has lived sinful life,
he will understand outright what "saved from sin" means.
No lengthy explanation is required.

Only sinners will require Jesus as Saviour, 
and they will follow Him forsaking everything, and will be saved.
If someone does not yet realize himself sinner,
then he does not require Jesus, the Saviour.

Coffee machine will give you coffee. 
If you require something else,
please do not hang around by the machine,
as it will give out only coffee.

Likewise, the Saviour will give you salvation,
if you require something other than salvation,
you do not have to hang around by the Saviour,
as He will give you only salvation.

Jesus is not discussion material, but Saviour.
Please leave Him alone, if you do not want salvation.

God bless.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 02:09:27 AM

Quote from: martincisneros on April 24, 2009, 01:32:09 AMI evidently had gaps in my intelligence to have not seen through it any earlier than when...

Okay, I see one of the things I've been doing in my presentation style that some may have thought was me gunning for them.  'Cause I'm still beating myself up on an area of tradition that I clung to for as long as I did, I guess I unwittingly convey that anyone that's holding to that perspective is as dumb as I view myself to have been back in the day.  I genuinely don't extrapolate that because I'll feel that way about myself, that therefore everyone else who holds to a differing view of Scripture is the least bit dim witted or anything like that.  Furthest thing from my thinking and my feelings, sincerely. 

I still regard Kenneth Copeland as my spiritual dad, in the way that St. Paul fathered the Corinthians, Timothy, Onesimus, Titus, and many others.  But he's still dispensational, premillenial, ET, pretrib rapture, Cosmic Rambo return rather than taking Revelation 19 as the vision that it is that John was seeing in heaven, etc.  He hunts and fishes to my chagrin, etc.  But God gave me way too much through him of my initial understandings of Scripture and only a fool thinks they've genuinely outgrown their parents, whether naturally or spiritually.  God knew 20 years ago what I now know and still chose that route for getting me to where I'm at. 

I have what others would view as virtually impossible demands upon myself because I not only know the level of the gift of God in me, but my genetic potential.  I expect nothing but the best out of me, and that's not to say that that's not possible from others.  But I won't tolerate less from me after all that God's done in my life.  Not just as a love offering to Him, but my knowledge of the specifics of how deep grace has ran through me and what it's done and what's always at my command of specifics for getting my calling accomplished -- which includes being a few steps ahead of the rest.  It's not a vanity, though it may have lent itself to vanity 12 years ago when God outlined the specifics to me from 1Thessalonians 3:8-13 and I genuinely thought I was practically there with all truth then.  But the following decade very rapidly curtailed my presumption. 

But my attitude is [genuinely] that I can learn from anyone.  And when I bump into a dispensationalist, or into any contrary viewpoint of the Scriptures, that's where I'm coming from.  It's a "SHOW ME" attitude rather than a "you idiot" attitude.  And if I've ever come across that way to anybody at any time on any thread, as though I were belittling anyone, my deepest deepst apologies are yours.  I'm just coming at it from a "just show it to me in the Book, and that it's consistently in the Book and I'll recant all I've said up until now that's been the opposite."  And that goes for any subject you can think of, including ET and speciesism.  Just show it to me to be consistently taught [with no translational or other Biblical issues] in the Covenants that I regard to be a part of the New Covenant and it'll suffice.  For anyone that's ever gotten all of the way through Winchester's Dialogues (i.e. The Universal Restoration), my attitude is always the exact same as his, that I don't consider myself married to any system of theology, but will, with sufficient Biblical evidence, make the adjustments in what I've been saying thus far.  That's on any area of Biblical doctrine.

Martin,

Let me say this just for clarification. I have learned from many different beliefs down through the years. I go to a Baptist Church sometimes and I read literature that many different people have written about many different subjects and beliefs. I don't consider myself a member or part of any of them. I don't like labels. I am not a dispensationalist, Universalist, Adventist, Baptist, Atheist, Uniterian, Catholic, you name it, I am a child of God, period. All of these labels belong to the world. I even listen to Joel Osteen, Joyce Myers, Charles Stanley, and even the ones you mentioned that were your mentors. Do I agree with everything they all say, no but I have learned a thing or two from them all.

As far as my beliefs go. The only thing I am pretty certain of is, if there is a God,...and I believe there is,...then all will be saved.  I do believe Christ was born, died, and was resurrected. As for everything else it is debatable, or discussable.  Paul said to grow in grace and knowledge. If we still believe and stick to the same things we did ten or twenty years ago, I don't believe we are growing in grace and knowledge.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2009, 01:14:08 AM
Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

When I first read 'tribulation' I was linking it to the 3.5 years of Revelation.
But I think the word has a more general meaning.
John was oppressed when preaching. That's tribulation also. Not all tribulation in life is The Tribulation.
Or.....?

 :cloud9: The word tribulation comes from a word that means a threshing instrument for wheat. The chaff (things of the flesh) is removed from off the grain (Christ in us). Iron (tools like this) speak of judgment, ie. the judgment to the flesh.

The revelation of Christ in us, is accomplished thru this "tribulim" tool, thus Paul said that the sufferings of this present world are not worthy to be compared with what is getting ready to be revealed in us, Christ in you, the hope of glory. It's something that goes on in us, and around us, because we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. The process is described as birth pains elsewhere.

Essentially, the law/letter is the iron threshing instrument, and Satan is what carries out the judgment decree to our flesh, whose purpose is to reveal Christ in us. That's why His judgments are unto victory.

For those that don't yet know Him, it pushes them to find Him within themselves. For those that do, it pushes them to display Him openly, ie. declare His generation (which is Spirit seed). Those He falls upon are crushed, those that fall upon Him are broken. That essentially covers EVERYONE in one category or another. There's UR revealed again. It's EVERYWHERE. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 24, 2009, 11:47:46 PM
:cloud9: The word tribulation comes from a word that means a threshing instrument for wheat. The chaff (things of the flesh) is removed from off the grain (Christ in us). Iron (tools like this) speak of judgment, ie. the judgment to the flesh.

The revelation of Christ in us, is accomplished thru this "tribulim" tool, thus Paul said that the sufferings of this present world are not worthy to be compared with what is getting ready to be revealed in us, Christ in you, the hope of glory. It's something that goes on in us, and around us, because we are a microcosm of the macrocosm. The process is described as birth pains elsewhere.

Essentially, the law/letter is the iron threshing instrument, and Satan is what carries out the judgment decree to our flesh, whose purpose is to reveal Christ in us. That's why His judgments are unto victory.

For those that don't yet know Him, it pushes them to find Him within themselves. For those that do, it pushes them to display Him openly, ie. declare His generation (which is Spirit seed). Those He falls upon are crushed, those that fall upon Him are broken. That essentially covers EVERYONE in one category or another. There's UR revealed again. It's EVERYWHERE. Blessings....

:icon_flower:

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 24, 2009, 10:50:14 PM

Quote from: CHB on April 24, 2009, 01:14:08 AM
Yes, Revelation was written after Jesus but if you notice, John in (Rev. 1:9) says, "I John, who also am your brother and companion in tribulation". It sounds like the tribulation was happening then. Also, what did John mean by saying "and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ?   Did he consider himself being in the kingdom at that time?

When I first read 'tribulation' I was linking it to the 3.5 years of Revelation.
But I think the word has a more general meaning.
John was oppressed when preaching. That's tribulation also. Not all tribulation in life is The Tribulation.
Or.....?

How do you see this verse?   (Rom.8:18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time". (2Cor. 4:8) "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are preplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken, cast down, but not destroyed".

Also, look at these verses. (Jude 23) And others save with fear. pulling them out of the fire.  (Amos 4:11) I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning;
(Zech. 3:2) is not this a brand plucked out of the fire.

I don't know if this was THE tribulation or not. I don't know for sure if this fire is different from the lake of fire we are discussing but if the lake of fire is in this life this would explain these verses.

Look up the word "tribulation" and "fire". What do you see?

Any way, something to think about.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on April 25, 2009, 03:24:13 AM
How do you see this verse?   (Rom.8:18) "For I reckon that the sufferings of this present time". (2Cor. 4:8) "We are troubled on every side, yet not distressed; we are preplexed, but not in despair; persecuted, but not forsaken, cast down, but not destroyed".

To vague to build a doctrine one. A side dish not the main course.

QuoteAlso, look at these verses. (Jude 23) And others save with fear. pulling them out of the fire.  (Amos 4:11) I have overthrown some of you, as God overthrew Sodom and Gomorrah, and ye were as a firebrand plucked out of the burning;
(Zech. 3:2) is not this a brand plucked out of the fire.

A bit less vague....
You know I often look at things from a statistical pov. The verses you quoted are certainly food for thought on their own.
If you could quote say 20 then for me the stats edge closer and closer to proof of LoF is now.
Not the most common way to study the Bible; but that's how my mind works. :pointlaugh:

QuoteI don't know if this was THE tribulation or not. I don't know for sure if this fire is different from the lake of fire we are discussing but if the lake of fire is in this life this would explain these verses.

Just thinking out loud here.
One could argue it's unfair only the last generation of mankind get tribulation? So we all get our "3.5 years"
Why should some have extra hard or easy tests to enter Heaven? Why only the last generation has to avoid the mark of the beast? (I'm not trying to discuss what it actually is. Just to make explaining easier)
OTOH if we assume we are in LoF we must also assume we are (the bad guys that are) already have been judged before our birth. Our birth would be the casting into the fire.
But that line of reasoning has so many problems attached to it....
Hitler is out of LoF. Doesn't look he learned what loving your neighbour means. But still he exited LoF and stepped into Heaven.
What is the Bible all about? It speaks of creation, laws etc. But that's not our world it speaks about. Because we live in LoF. Many other problems exist with the LoF now theory.

So CHB....
a] You listed good verses.
b] I need more such verses, and perhaps more direct ones.
c] I need some argumentation to clear up the problems mentioned in the above pargraph.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 10:11:19 AM

A bit less vague....
You know I often look at things from a statistical pov. The verses you quoted are certainly food for thought on their own.
If you could quote say 20 then for me the stats edge closer and closer to proof of LoF is now.

Well there are lots of verses that talk about us going through the fire now... trial by fire, everyone salted with fire, refined in the fire, saved by fire, etc.

IMHO I don't believe those verses are talking about the "lake" of fire... but it just emphasizes the point that everyone goes through the fire, some in bits and pieces in this life, the rest in the lake later...

Quote
One could argue it's unfair only the last generation of mankind get tribulation? So we all get our "3.5 years"
Why should some have extra hard or easy tests to enter Heaven?

Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.  Only God knows what each individual must go through to become purified as a son of God so that the individual can then be made into the image of God.


Regarding the "great" tribulation... I think everyone will have their own tribulations to go through.   The "3.5 year" tribulation that the church teaches is yet another false doctrine IMHO.

Legoman

Quote from: legoman on April 25, 2009, 02:17:43 PM
Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.

That only makes sense if all die at a similar age.
What about a kid that dieds in some accident after living 4 very happy years. Why would that kid get 'hotter fire' in LoF?

Speaking about kids. What about babies that died at the age of 1 month? Do they become adults in the afterlife.
Babies have no sense about good and evil. They can't even say God, let alone they worship Him.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 02:57:53 PM

Quote from: legoman on April 25, 2009, 02:17:43 PM
Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.

That only makes sense if all die at a similar age.
What about a kid that dieds in some accident after living 4 very happy years. Why would that kid get 'hotter fire' in LoF?

Speaking about kids. What about babies that died at the age of 1 month? Do they become adults in the afterlife.
Babies have no sense about good and evil. They can't even say God, let alone they worship Him.

Personally I think those that die as a child or extremely young will still have to grow up in the lake of fire.  There is ALOT of maturing that needs to be done in a 4year old - that will be done in the lake of fire.  In that sense, I suppose you could call that a 'hotter fire' in the LoF.

Likewise with a 1 month old baby.  They haven't learned anything yet.  They will have to grow up and learn just like anyone else.  JMHO but that will be done in the lake of fire.

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

God is impartial: everyone must learn what is necessary to become a son of God.  Its just a question of when they learn it:
- some learn it all in this life
- some learn a bit in this life and the rest in the LoF
- some learn none of it in this life and all of it in the LoF (ie. babies)

Later...

QuotePerhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 04:30:31 PM
Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

I agree. 

 :cloud9: Just throwing this out there for thought......but what if the carnal mind really is the devil as some say? Then if the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), that would make sense. The carnal mind and "his" messages are enmity against God and therefore in direct opposition to the mind of Christ. These are the things in all of us that need to be "burned up". See what I mean?  :dontknow: Blessings....

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 04:30:31 PM

QuotePerhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

Don't we all learn the hard way sometimes?  In this life or the LoF, it can still be the hard way sometimes.

Think about these verses:

Luke 12:47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.

Now a baby, who knows very little, will not get many "stripes".  That doesn't mean the baby doesn't need to mature and grow and learn to be a full son of God.

In fact Jesus even talked about how the kingdom belongs to such as these (ie. children).  But I still believe they will need to learn how to be good and humble.  

When God's judgments come, the people will learn righteousness.

Legoman

Quote from: legoman on April 25, 2009, 05:30:38 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 04:30:31 PM

QuotePerhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

Yes I do. But more like learning the hard way. The general impression I get from verses that speak about LoF that it is wise/best to avoid it.

Don't we all learn the hard way sometimes?  In this life or the LoF, it can still be the hard way sometimes.

Let speak for myself only: Much can happen until I die. But if the 44 years I lived sofar are supposed my punishment then I have good news for all of you: God is much kinder than you have imagined sofar...

The fire upon believers, is a fire that tries one's faith.  It's part of the death/burial/resurrection (drinking of the cup) that love does for another.  Jesus died and rose again for the salvation of the world.  His "body(-us) die and rise up, for a purpose.  Love lays down it's life for another.  The Christ (head and body) are given the blessing of having love shine in our hearts, and through "the cross" lay down our life for the harvest.  It is a blessing to go through the cross.  

Psa 1:1  Blessed is the man that walketh not in the counsel of the ungodly, nor standeth in the way of sinners, nor sitteth in the seat of the scornful.
.
Psa 1:3  And he shall be like a tree planted by the rivers of water, that bringeth forth his fruit in his season; his leaf also shall not wither; and whatsoever he doeth shall prosper.

Rev 22:2  In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

Psa 1:4  The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away.

Psa 1:5  Therefore the ungodly shall not stand in the judgment, nor sinners in the congregation of the righteous.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.  



I personally see the lof as the loss partaking of "not laying one's life down for another".  Selling one's birthright.


who do those in the LOF die for??  imo; no-one; and it is a "shame".


But, healing.



 

 :cloud9: I see that as; the "children" (pure in heart/spirit), the same as those that came down from heaven to inhabit these flesh bodies, their remembrance of their true identity hidden by the wall of partition/carnal mind of "forgetfulness". They were already "adult" in spirit, as those that were one with Him from the foundation of the world. Only the flesh and the mind submitted to the bondage of corruption, is as a natural child. My  :2c: Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 25, 2009, 05:30:01 PM
:cloud9: Just throwing this out there for thought......but what if the carnal mind really is the devil as some say? Then if the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), that would make sense. The carnal mind and "his" messages are enmity against God and therefore in direct opposition to the mind of Christ. These are the things in all of us that need to be "burned up". See what I mean?  :dontknow: Blessings....

I wrote soemthing similar a few days ago. The verse sounds like God was caught by suprise and as a quick fix He no also uses LoF for humans. That points toward this being LoF. But there is to much that argues against it.
I'll just mention one problem I have with the LoF=now theory.
People leave LoF if they are rightous. In this life that means: they die. Then they go to Heaven.
To be in LoF means we are already judged (and cast in LoF)
One of the things to learn in LoF: no racism.
I'm not the greatest historian in existance but I'm pretty sure Hitlers still wasn't best friends with the Jews. He's in Heaven now filled with hate?

A.E.Knoch (who did the Concordant Literal Version) seems to have taught that those not in the first resurrection would be raised to life again for the purpose of undergoing judgment and they would then die again a 2nd death by being put into the lake of fire.  It is just death a 2nd time.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 05:50:51 PM

Quote from: Cardinal on April 25, 2009, 05:30:01 PM
:cloud9: Just throwing this out there for thought......but what if the carnal mind really is the devil as some say? Then if the lake of fire is prepared for the devil and his angels (means MESSAGES or messengers), that would make sense. The carnal mind and "his" messages are enmity against God and therefore in direct opposition to the mind of Christ. These are the things in all of us that need to be "burned up". See what I mean?  :dontknow: Blessings....

I wrote soemthing similar a few days ago. The verse sounds like God was caught by suprise and as a quick fix He no also uses LoF for humans. That points toward this being LoF. But there is to much that argues against it.
I'll just mention one problem I have with the LoF=now theory.
People leave LoF if they are rightous. In this life that means: they die. Then they go to Heaven.
To be in LoF means we are already judged (and cast in LoF)
One of the things to learn in LoF: no racism.
I'm not the greatest historian in existance but I'm pretty sure Hitlers still wasn't best friends with the Jews. He's in Heaven now filled with hate?

:cloud9: What I'm saying is, whether in the body or out of the body, the carnal mind and it's messages and the fruit that they brought (works burned up in the fire?), would be burned up by the processing of God's Spirit, which IS fire.

So instead of looking at the LOF as an event in time, maybe it's a process in the timeLESSness of the Spirit of God. Going on all around us at all times and in all "dimensions" of existence, both in the body and out.

We are "judged", every day when presented with the "choose ye this day whom ye will serve", choices presented to us by the Spirit of God vs. the carnal mind. When we choose correctly, that which is not like God (who is a consuming fire), gets consumed (thrown in the "LOF"?).

I'm not saying I'm convinced it is, I'm just saying that for it to "work" with the established principles I DO know of the Spirit, this is how it would have to be, I would think. Blessings....

Here's one for the numbers in you . . ."lake of fire" is mentioned only 4 times in the entire Bible . . .all four are in Revelation . . and three of the four are in the same chapter . . .chapter 20, the other is in chapter 19.  Of these four references, it's interesting that this subject catches one's imagination the most.

But who is it that's cast into the lake of fire?  Many are trying to say it's now . . . I'm just not sold on that . . not only do I think I'm personally not in it now, but I also think it's not for me at all.

Chapter 19 states that both the beast and the false prophet are thrown in "alive".  Chapter 20 (v.10)states that the devil was then thrown into where the beast and false prophet "are".

Verse 14 states then that death and hell are thrown into the lake . . .
Then, lastly, in verse 15 it states that whoever is not found in the book of life . . .

"book of life" odly enough, is found 8 times . . .and 7 of the 8 are in Revelation . . .the other is found in Philippians of all places . . .but the thing about the book of life I find also interesting is . . .there's no mention of being added into it . . .only being removed from it.

For me, I definitely do not agree with the idea that if a child dies, they go to the lake of fire to mature, or "learn" about whatever it is we're to experience . .there is only ONE entrance into the Father and that's through the Son . . .and there's no implication that the Son requires a lake of fire experience for anyone, other than those who've rejected the finished work of the cross.  And children were at the front of the line in coming to Jesus, they are born in innocense . . .I believe all who are born, are born with their names already in the Lambs book of Life . . .which is to say there's no requirement of a LOF experience necessary.

But when we experience this life and pass from innocense into adulthood . . .our name, our identity can be erased from the book of life . .which simply means that if we don't embrace Christ, our final destination doesn't change, just the route that gets us there changes.  I was born in sin, but also innocense at the same time.  Babies that die, young toddlers that die . . .I don't beleive at all that they're to experience the lake of fire . . I believe they are born in the flesh, but die in grace because they had not yet matured into the ability to understand or choose life or death . . .

I believe that is what the cross is all about . . .it's to enable us to have access unto the Father without having to pay the wages of our sinful state.  In all the 4 verse referring to the LOF . . .none of them imply that believers are experiencing that kind of cleansing reserved for unbelievers.

Revelation 19:20
And the beast  was taken, and with him the false prophet  that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

Revelation 20:10
And the devil  that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:14
And death and hell  were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

Revelation 20:15
And whosoever was not found written in the book of life  was cast into the lake of fire.

Bottom line for me is . . . the beast, the false prophet, the devil and of course all who's names are not found . . .all of these for me are different characteristics of "man" . . .the inner, carnal man.  Now, as for death and hell . . .I believe "that" is the homeland of the carnal man . . .and "that" may be what we're confusing our current experiences with when trying to connect them with the lake of fire.

Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

Nathan,

I view it this way.  Everyone's carnality must die.  We are all born carnal.  Even little babies are carnal.  In some sense thats all they know.  "MY TOY.  FEED ME.  I WANT IT NOW!"  etc. The carnality must go before we "get into heaven".

The carnality will be burned out of us by fire (not literal fire, but spiritual refining fire of course).  Either by trial by fire in this life, or by the Lake of Fire after we die.

Little babies who die are still most likely carnal, so they must have their carnality removed just like everyone else.

I think people still get hung up on the Lake of Fire as this wicked place of punishment (even though its not eternal).  Granted, it probably won't be fun, but HEY - this life isn't always fun either.  What it will do is teach us the things in Titus 2.

Everyone needs to have their trials so they can mature and become full sons of God.

Sparrow kindof put me onto this, and I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple weeks.  What do we need to learn?  We need to learn love!  We are being made into sons of God, into his image.  What is His image?  Love!  God is love.  Specifically, love is:
- kind
- patient
- not rude or self seeking
- not keeping a record of wrongs
- rejoices in good
- always protecting
- always hopeful
- never failing
etc.

This is a checklist of what we are to be!  Is a little baby always kind or patient?  No.  So the baby still has some things to learn before it is a son of God.

Am I always kind, patient, protecting, selfless, etc?  No not always.  Therefore I'm not yet ready for the kingdom of God.  God still has more work to do with me - either in this life or the lake of fire.

When one can truthfully say that he is all these things that "love" is described as, then that person is ready for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

Quote from: Doc on April 27, 2009, 10:33:38 PM
Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

Yes exactly.  What does literal physical fire do to physical bodies?  It causes immense pain and death.

What would we learn from that?

The lake of fire is God's judgment and the people learn righteousness from God's judgments.

Even though we know its not eternal, that doesn't mean the lake of fire is still some place of wicked purposeless punishment (but at least it stops after a while).  Yippee, instead of being kept alive in burning fire for eternity, now I find out we are only kept alive in burning fire for a billion years!  How merciful of God!  :winkgrin: No, I can't believe that anymore.

The lake of fire is spiritual and is like all of God's spiritual fires - used for teaching, refining, purging and purifying.  It could be done in the same way that we learn things in this life - by life experience.

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire." (Mt 3:11-12, CLV)

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor and be gathering the grain into His barn, yet the chaff shall He burn up with unextinguished fire." (Lk 3:16-17, CLV)

The chaff is the hard husk surrounding the grain.  It is not some other plant; but, it is part of the grain, the part that must be removed to make the grain usable.

Quote from: reFORMer on April 28, 2009, 06:34:11 AM
"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor, and will be gathering His grain into His barn, yet the chaff will He be burning up with unextinguished fire." (Mt 3:11-12, CLV)

"He will be baptizing you in holy spirit and fire, Whose winnowing shovel is in His hand, and He will be scouring His threshing floor and be gathering the grain into His barn, yet the chaff shall He burn up with unextinguished fire." (Lk 3:16-17, CLV)

The chaff is the hard husk surrounding the grain.  It is not some other plant; but, it is part of the grain, the part that must be removed to make the grain usable.

but what about the tares??

Quote from: Doc on April 27, 2009, 10:33:38 PM
Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

I'm pretty close to abandoning the book of Revelation as far as any kind of future prophecy with the brief exceptions like Revelation 5:13 where there's demensions of that that I believe are coming that we've not seen yet when you compare that passage with all relevant similar passages in the Psalms and Prophets of the Old Testament.  Isaiah 66 is bothering me about the Post 70AD world possibly being the New Heavens and New Earth anticipated by the book of Revelation.  And yet, 2Peter 3 describes a coming cataclysm that'll bring New Heavens and New Earth, that as I've been indicating more and more recently may be spiritual, but which is contrasted with Noah's Flood to where it could more likely be global.  Millenium, White Throne Judgment, and New Earth seem to be simultaneously true right now from what I'm seeing both from the Bible and time with Holy Spirit.  And then a week from now I'll see that that was only one layer that I'm looking at, and that the reason I'm seeing it now is 'cause I wasn't willing to look at it previously, and then I'll wind up being a total futurist with the whole book of Revelation in about another month!  Probably.  I was trying to find the passage that Tony Nungesser had brought up on the boards sometime back, from Isaiah, where there was death on the New Earth.  Not sure if I was looking at the same passage, or if it's a different one, or if it was a translational thing with the Concordant Literal Old Testament.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 28, 2009, 07:11:19 AM

Quote from: Doc on April 27, 2009, 10:33:38 PM
Yeah, I just can't see anymore any way to interpret the LOF as a physical lake of physical fire. How would such a thing destroy/ reform Satan/ the beast/ anyone thrown into it and such esoteric things as death and hades? The LOF has to be something spiritual that is capable of destroying death and hades at the very least. And if you lump the fearful and unbelieving in the group that goes in against the other "character flaws" that qualify a person for getting thrown in, it just doesn't add up. It seems that the LOF is to be the "end" of whatever is thrown in it.

I'm pretty close to abandoning the book of Revelation as far as any kind of future prophecy with the brief exceptions like Revelation 5:13

Martin,
This is not an argument but just a question.
Do you also abandon other books for similar reasons? Why (not)?
The creation of starting at Genesis 1:1 is completed. I think most agree on that. So we could abandon that part for future prophecy? Or not? Revelation speaks about new heaven and earth. Perhaps created similar to the Genesis account?
Just asking....

Jesus says, "Behold, I make all things new;" not, I make all new things.  Not just us; but, all of creation is going to be glorified.  He will make new realities later on, or so I think.  We are already in the change.  Our eyes are being opened to "Behold!" Him making all things new.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 07:32:02 AM
Martin,
This is not an argument but just a question.
Do you also abandon other books for similar reasons? Why (not)?
The creation of starting at Genesis 1:1 is completed. I think most agree on that. So we could abandon that part for future prophecy? Or not? Revelation speaks about new heaven and earth. Perhaps created similar to the Genesis account?
Just asking....

You're right!  So many different levels to the whole thing, that I momentarily fried of thinking I'd ever have it down.  I know better, but I slipped into a Western mindset about an Eastern Book.  I've had so much on my mind recently and some new amazing experiences with God, that I momentarily slipped into abandoning my previous understandings of it, but out of fullness of all that was going on in my life rather than out of unbelief.  And I knew better.  Something I've been believing God for, for 17 years seems like it's finally touchable, for want of a better way of putting it.  I prematurely spoke out of turn regarding the one Book of the New Testament that speaks a special blessing to those that read and keep it's contents.

Quote from: reFORMer on April 28, 2009, 07:37:35 AMJesus says, "Behold, I make all things new;" not, I make all new things.  Not just us; but, all of creation is going to be glorified.  He will make new realities later on, or so I think.  We are already in the change.  Our eyes are being opened to "Behold!" Him making all things new.

He did this with me this evening as I slept for about 3hrs.  I'd gotten into unbelief in December of '07 regarding something, and my unbelief had cost me dearly for over a year.  I'd gotten into unbelief about a major pillar of my life, and I'm not talking about a doctrinal matter although given a moment I could probably open the Book and "go there," to the total shock of quite a few but what I'd say with regards to something personal wouldn't have just a whole lot of baring on people here.  And as He was straightening out my thinking over the last few days, I was noticing myself making a comeback from a blown chip or whatever.  And as a result of finally just resting in something all day today that had been my choking point on my faith previously for a while, suddenly as I rested this evening for about 3 hours all of a sudden the healing was completed. 

I'd stepped off into condemnation sooo badly as a result of my unbelief that the things that I would bring up from the Scriptures were about the only thing that I could remember.  I was like Superman stripped of his powers and desperately trying to find 'em again, but inspite of everything there was that green crystal glowing that he caught a glimpse of in the corner of his eye.  I was stunningly healed in an area of my body that I'll say more about later as the Lord leads.  Anyway, while I'm on my cultural myth illustrations, I saw this medical building again today 'cause I accompanied a family member on their doctor's appointment.  Not sure how this is going to work out with everything else God's been telling me.  But I suddenly knew that that building was mine.  It's such a neat architectural building that none of the photos that I could find online do it justice.  It's about the only building that I've ever had it really, really badly on me to want to climb that puppy like Spiderman! LOL! 

And I think that I found out why today as it dropped in my heart with a sense of ownership.  Not sure if that 6 story building will make for a nice publishing house someday or what God's got in mind.  So I was like, "okay, so that's why I'm always wanting to climb this thing when I'm on this part of town... Rascal's mine! LOL!"  And then I got inside and got to thinking of the kind of costs involved, and everything else that's on my to-do list for the next two hundred to a thousand years and couldn't figure out how it would possibly fit in.  And there's these metal doors that lead into the building and they always creek really really badly at an exceptionally high pitch sometimes, but never in a low one.  It's always the sound of that creepy old house from an old B-movie, from an Elvira movie or whatever. 

Right when I was starting to think that I was just being vain, gaudy, and whatever, suddenly someone walks out the right door of the two sets of metal doors, heading outside.  And as the doors are closing the sound is -- I swear I'm not making this up! LOL!! -- the sound was a dematerializing/rematerializing Tardis from Doctor Who.  I just busted out laughing and couldn't stop laughing for about 20 minutes.  If there was ever something just totally natural that God decided to teasingly attach meaning to at a pivotal moment of calling someone's thinking up to another level!  It only made that sound that one time and the rest of the time it was just the haunted house creeks.  Nothing a little WD-40 wouldn't fix.  And I genuinely feel like it's the whole enchillada that I'll have when the time is right, but I'm leery of a false prophecy on that and will simply say that minimally the land's mine in His timing.  With some of the bigger things that God will tell me, if He doesn't just blurt it out of me, I'll tend to just let it pass by and wimp out of using my faith on it. 

I've been really bad over the years about follow through on things He'd tell me.  And then there's a mixture of opinion among sooo many preachers about whether you should start talking the plan of God, or whether you better keep a lid on it or you're going to wind up like Joseph in the book of Genesis, about half beaten to death and sold by his brothers.  But think it through though, and this is what God's been chasing me with for about 3 years and hasn't allowed me much wiggle room regarding it, that when He tells me something and I'm 100% sure it's Him, then I better say something and start the process.  Let's see, should Joseph had kept his mouth shut and perhaps all of his relatives to have died and that promise to him from God to have only had future ages fulfillments? 

From what God's been doing in correcting my thinking, I'll run towards the beating and being thrown in that dungeon if it means being the number 2 guy in the Kingdom in a few years.  Duh!  Getting stomped and kicked by just normal life and dying as a nothing or worse, or taking your licks for something that's going to really matter to not only yourself but to everybody you care about and everything you've ever believed in, with no third choice seemingly available in this age?  Life's been hard enough without backing out at the moment of truth, when it's no longer the devil dangling his carrots in front of you that wind up being extremely sour in the middle, but where it's God saying to enter into His joy. 

Worthiness and being ready has zero to do with stepping into the process.  It's God's promises that are the provisions of not only their particulars but of the cleansing, refining, and perfecting.  Using the pretty bad translation on this for a moment, Peter felt pretty unworthy when Lord Jesus filled his boat with fish.  He told Jesus to just go from him 'cause he couldn't deal with this.  St. Paul's ministry would have been hindered if He had departed from Peter per Peter's plea.  Peter's actually the one that was used by God, not only on the day of Pentecost but in opening the door to ministering the Gospel to the Gentiles in Acts 10.  There is no part that's unworthy if we genuinely believe God's playing chess and has the next several moves planned out predicated about this and that falling into line with what He says. 

The thread asks the question "saved from what?"  Saved from thinking that anything whatsoever belongs to the devil and an unrighteous generation.

Anyway, grin and bare it if you've got any silly religious ideas that Christians should be poor or any goofy ideas about what Kingdom modesty is supposed to be like 'cause it was God that earlier looked at this and was like oh yeah!! :cool:  I'm just listening and open for Him telling me what's the seed to this:

(http://www.hsc.unt.edu/departments/familymed/images/jpgs/PCC%201web.jpg)

Quote from: legoman on April 27, 2009, 10:42:34 PM
Nathan,

I view it this way.  Everyone's carnality must die.  We are all born carnal.  Even little babies are carnal.  In some sense thats all they know.  "MY TOY.  FEED ME.  I WANT IT NOW!"  etc. The carnality must go before we "get into heaven".

The carnality will be burned out of us by fire (not literal fire, but spiritual refining fire of course).  Either by trial by fire in this life, or by the Lake of Fire after we die.

Little babies who die are still most likely carnal, so they must have their carnality removed just like everyone else.

I think people still get hung up on the Lake of Fire as this wicked place of punishment (even though its not eternal).  Granted, it probably won't be fun, but HEY - this life isn't always fun either.  What it will do is teach us the things in Titus 2.

Everyone needs to have their trials so they can mature and become full sons of God.

Sparrow kindof put me onto this, and I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple weeks.  What do we need to learn?  We need to learn love!  We are being made into sons of God, into his image.  What is His image?  Love!  God is love.  Specifically, love is:
- kind
- patient
- not rude or self seeking
- not keeping a record of wrongs
- rejoices in good
- always protecting
- always hopeful
- never failing
etc.

This is a checklist of what we are to be!  Is a little baby always kind or patient?  No.  So the baby still has some things to learn before it is a son of God.

Am I always kind, patient, protecting, selfless, etc?  No not always.  Therefore I'm not yet ready for the kingdom of God.  God still has more work to do with me - either in this life or the lake of fire.

When one can truthfully say that he is all these things that "love" is described as, then that person is ready for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

Amen, Brother!!
:high5:

Quote from: legoman on April 27, 2009, 10:42:34 PM
Nathan,

I view it this way.  Everyone's carnality must die.  We are all born carnal.  Even little babies are carnal.  In some sense thats all they know.  "MY TOY.  FEED ME.  I WANT IT NOW!"  etc. The carnality must go before we "get into heaven".

The carnality will be burned out of us by fire (not literal fire, but spiritual refining fire of course).  Either by trial by fire in this life, or by the Lake of Fire after we die.

Little babies who die are still most likely carnal, so they must have their carnality removed just like everyone else.

I think people still get hung up on the Lake of Fire as this wicked place of punishment (even though its not eternal).  Granted, it probably won't be fun, but HEY - this life isn't always fun either.  What it will do is teach us the things in Titus 2.

Everyone needs to have their trials so they can mature and become full sons of God.

Sparrow kindof put me onto this, and I've been thinking about it a lot the last couple weeks.  What do we need to learn?  We need to learn love!  We are being made into sons of God, into his image.  What is His image?  Love!  God is love.  Specifically, love is:
- kind
- patient
- not rude or self seeking
- not keeping a record of wrongs
- rejoices in good
- always protecting
- always hopeful
- never failing
etc.

This is a checklist of what we are to be!  Is a little baby always kind or patient?  No.  So the baby still has some things to learn before it is a son of God.

Am I always kind, patient, protecting, selfless, etc?  No not always.  Therefore I'm not yet ready for the kingdom of God.  God still has more work to do with me - either in this life or the lake of fire.

When one can truthfully say that he is all these things that "love" is described as, then that person is ready for the kingdom of God.

Peace...

This is quite a list . . .I think it's one thing to expect this of an adult, but an entirely different matter when seeing it applicable to a toddler or an infant.  I responded to this yesterday but I was timed-out and lost the whole message.  Romans 3 speaks about law is the knowledge of sin . . . to me, this is saying that when I focus on the shadows in others, I'm actually living in law.  But the righteousness of God manifests "without" the law.  Or, "outside" of the law . . .or . . .by ignoring the restraints placed by the law, we are free in Christ.  So if this is the case, then measuring one with a list such as this really isn't profitable.

Yes, Scripture quotes a list of characteristics that love is . . .but one, love doesn't manifest only by what's on the list . . and two, true love makes no logical sense.  It doesn't make sense that we were called righteous before we ever acknowledged God at all.  It doesn't make sense that we deserve death but are given life.  It doesn't make sense that a person can be exposed to life and still choose death . . .even though in the end, life is still granted.
I'm not willing to believe that little babies, and children of innocence are to experience this LOF which may have wonderful outcomes in the end, it still appears to be a place of great violence.

We scratch out heads at the idea of ET'ers choosing to believe that their friends and family are in for an eternity of fire and torment when it's so much liberating to believe that all will be saved . . .and yet, ya want to choose to believe that babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF?  I just can't get myself to do it.

Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2009, 05:13:46 PM
We scratch out heads at the idea of ET'ers choosing to believe that their friends and family are in for an eternity of fire and torment when it's so much liberating to believe that all will be saved . . .and yet, ya want to choose to believe that babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF?  I just can't get myself to do it.

Hi Nathan,

Somehow I think you and I have a different picture in our head of what the LoF is.  Yes for someone like Hitler, the LoF will probably be pretty awful.  Perhaps he will have to witness and endure and understand all of the pain his victims went through.  Who knows - whatever it is, Hitler will have a lot of correction to be done.

But for others it will be different.

What do you think will happen to a little baby that dies and goes to heaven?  I don't think it will stay a baby forever - therefore it will need to grow, learn, and mature.  Where is that going to happen?  The baby will have its own LoF experience.  Don't picture this as "hell and brimstone" fire punishment.  But instead picture it as the baby just grows up.  It will go through adolescence, and adulthood, with all of the trials and learning that go along with it.  How this will be done specifically I don't know, but it will provide "equivalent life experience" as if the baby had lived a normal life.

IMHO The LoF is primarily for learning and correction.  Each person in the LoF will have their own unique experience.

Peace...

Quote from: legoman on April 25, 2009, 04:09:36 PM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 25, 2009, 02:57:53 PM

Quote from: legoman on April 25, 2009, 02:17:43 PM
Remember God is impartial... no one has it easy.  If someone has it "too easy" in this life, that will be made up for in the lake of fire.

That only makes sense if all die at a similar age.
What about a kid that dieds in some accident after living 4 very happy years. Why would that kid get 'hotter fire' in LoF?

Speaking about kids. What about babies that died at the age of 1 month? Do they become adults in the afterlife.
Babies have no sense about good and evil. They can't even say God, let alone they worship Him.

Personally I think those that die as a child or extremely young will still have to grow up in the lake of fire.  There is ALOT of maturing that needs to be done in a 4year old - that will be done in the lake of fire.  In that sense, I suppose you could call that a 'hotter fire' in the LoF.

Likewise with a 1 month old baby.  They haven't learned anything yet.  They will have to grow up and learn just like anyone else.  JMHO but that will be done in the lake of fire.

Perhaps you are still thinking of the LoF as "punishment" too much instead of a place to "learn the things we didn't learn in this life".

God is impartial: everyone must learn what is necessary to become a son of God.  Its just a question of when they learn it:
- some learn it all in this life
- some learn a bit in this life and the rest in the LoF
- some learn none of it in this life and all of it in the LoF (ie. babies)

Later...

Hi All,

I lot of good post since I posted. Since my last post I haven't been able to access the forum because of some stupid "this page cannot be displayed".    :sigh: Someone said I should register again and maybe that would help. Anyway, I hate to lose my post count but the next time this happens I will register again.

Legoman,

I agree with what you are saying. If a baby dies before, say, age five wouldn't he or she need to learn who Jesus was and what salvation was all about? I believe so. Although, I am not one who believes we go on to heaven when we die. I believe we will be resurrected when Christ returns and those who haven't learned about salvation or don't know God will be taught of God. I also agree with what Cardinal has said, I don't know about the Satan part yet but have been studying that as well. This could very well be right, makes sense.

I also believe the lake of fire is a spiritual fire where one dies to self, where we get rid of our way of thinking and become one with God, that is, our minds will think like his. All of the carnal things and things that are contrary to God will be destroyed in it. I don't think the lake of fire is punishment the way most religions think it is but a correction, and learning experience and isn't that what this life is all about? 

It says "death and hell is thrown into the lake of fire, this is the second death". Ok. when everyone is resurrected death and hell will be no more and everyone will live in the lake of fire until they have matured spiritually and reached the point of being one with God. Then they will become immortal. That way death and hell {grave} will be thrown into the lake of fire.{life}

Another thing I was thinking too, like Martin said, and I could be wrong but I believe at least part of the book of Revelation has been fulfilled.

Just some thoughts I had will reading you posts.

WhiteWings,

I looked up a few scriptures about fire while I couldn't get back on here. You will have to look them up though.  (Deut. 4:33-36) (Isaiah 9:18:19) (Luke 12:49) (Isaiah 43:2) (1Peter 1:7) Isaiah 33:11-15)

Bottom line is I think, Christ didn't save us from anything, He saved us FOR something.

CHB

Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2009, 06:22:37 PM
I lot of good post since I posted. Since my last post I haven't been able to access the forum because of some stupid "this page cannot be displayed".    :sigh: Someone said I should register again and maybe that would help. Anyway, I hate to lose my post count but the next time this happens I will register again.

Doesn't sound logical to me because if the TM site can't be found you can't register either.
I had similar problems and did certain checks. The problem lays on teh route between your/mine PC and this site.
Lets simply call it a traffic jam.

QuoteWhiteWings,

I looked up a few scriptures about fire while I couldn't get back on here. You will have to look them up though.  (Deut. 4:33-36) (Isaiah 9:18:19) (Luke 12:49) (Isaiah 43:2) (1Peter 1:7) Isaiah 33:11-15)

Bottom line is I think, Christ didn't save us from anything, He saved us FOR something.

Last Sunday I've read a new take on that. I just put it here for concideration because it certainly has its merit.
Jesus didn't save us from something => LoF, Hell, correction, etc
Jesus did save us from a state => The state of being dead. -> Wages of sin is death
:2c:

Quote from: Nathan on April 28, 2009, 05:13:46 PM

This is quite a list . . .I think it's one thing to expect this of an adult, but an entirely different matter when seeing it applicable to a toddler or an infant.  I responded to this yesterday but I was timed-out and lost the whole message.  Romans 3 speaks about law is the knowledge of sin . . . to me, this is saying that when I focus on the shadows in others, I'm actually living in law.  But the righteousness of God manifests "without" the law.  Or, "outside" of the law . . .or . . .by ignoring the restraints placed by the law, we are free in Christ.  So if this is the case, then measuring one with a list such as this really isn't profitable.

Yes, Scripture quotes a list of characteristics that love is . . .but one, love doesn't manifest only by what's on the list . . and two, true love makes no logical sense.  It doesn't make sense that we were called righteous before we ever acknowledged God at all.  It doesn't make sense that we deserve death but are given life.  It doesn't make sense that a person can be exposed to life and still choose death . . .even though in the end, life is still granted.
I'm not willing to believe that little babies, and children of innocence are to experience this LOF which may have wonderful outcomes in the end, it still appears to be a place of great violence.

We scratch out heads at the idea of ET'ers choosing to believe that their friends and family are in for an eternity of fire and torment when it's so much liberating to believe that all will be saved . . .and yet, ya want to choose to believe that babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF?  I just can't get myself to do it.

Hi Nathan,

You said "babies and children are going to go to this hardened place in the LOF"  If we all go through this lake of fire as we live, then babies and children will have an opportunity to live their lives and learn about salvation and God the same as the rest of us. I believe that when Christ comes back all will be resurrected to human life, those who don't know about God and salvation will be taught by God, {live their lives through the LOF} that will include babies and children. I believe the death they die after this will be spiritual, not a physical death. Those that understand now in this life will have a part in teaching those who will never understand in this life. There are a lot of Old Testament scriptures that show this.

CHB

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 06:57:02 PM

Quote from: CHB on April 28, 2009, 06:22:37 PM
I lot of good post since I posted. Since my last post I haven't been able to access the forum because of some stupid "this page cannot be displayed".    :sigh: Someone said I should register again and maybe that would help. Anyway, I hate to lose my post count but the next time this happens I will register again.

Doesn't sound logical to me because if the TM site can't be found you can't register either.
I had similar problems and did certain checks. The problem lays on teh route between your/mine PC and this site.
Lets simply call it a traffic jam.

QuoteWhiteWings,

I looked up a few scriptures about fire while I couldn't get back on here. You will have to look them up though.  (Deut. 4:33-36) (Isaiah 9:18:19) (Luke 12:49) (Isaiah 43:2) (1Peter 1:7) Isaiah 33:11-15)

Bottom line is I think, Christ didn't save us from anything, He saved us FOR something.

Last Sunday I've read a new take on that. I just put it here for concideration because it certainly has its merit.
Jesus didn't save us from something => LoF, Hell, correction, etc
Jesus did save us from a state => The state of being dead. -> Wages of sin is death
:2c:

The reason I say "Christ saved us for something" is,.. everything was planned from the beginning to bring us to a state of immortal being. This was the whole purpose of why we are here. So, if you look at this from this perspective Christ saved us for a future of immortality.

CHB

When adults are cast in LoF it's assumed they learn rightousness.
So only good things are thought. Bad things are 'burned' out.
The refiners fire....

Babies have no mistakes to be burned out.
If they have to learn about good and evil then they first have to be thaught bad things and the unlearn them again...?
I've read an NDE that adressed infants.
The vision was that there was a big nursery. Angels where constantly teaching the kids in all kind of ways.

For me, again . . .as we've all agreed to so far  . . . the LOF is a spiritual place and not a physical one yes?  Essentially, you could call it a spiritual washing station where all carnality is removed and only spirit remains . . .the carnality's source is my mind, my logic and natural reasoning.  That part of me that is at enmity with God and that I'm not supposed to lean on. 

In Christ our mind is renewed so there's no need for the LOF for those who's names are still in the book of life.  I just don't believe literal babies have their names removed until they are old enough to make the conscious decision dealing with God in the first place.  I don't believe the LOF is a learning ground, a training center where ungodly are taught or that it's a process much like what we experience here in this life.  There is no indication of that at all as far as I can tell, literally or metaphorically in Scripture. 

In fact, Hebrews says that the time will come when no man will have to be taught anything . . .everything will be revealed to everyone through the Holy Spirit by way of revelation from the Father as a result of having intimate relationship with the Son.

I do believe that we have hell experiences here on earth that are a combination of our own bad choices and God's leading.  It all depends on what type of hell we're experiencing there I guess.  But the church that Jesus has/is/continues to build has a foundational rock, a cornerstone that was addressed and identified with the Peter experience (who do "you" say that I am . . .)  The foundation of Jesus is not built from teaching or learning . . . but by way of "revealing" through relationship.  God reveals his son, as we mature in relationship with Jesus.  I didn't gain entrance into the kingdom through learning about Jesus . . .but I did gain it through revelation from God when I accepted the relationship with Christ.

That's the foundation.  So how can we then say that the LOF is where all who are without understanding of God go and gain understanding about God?  It's not to remove sin, it's to remove carnality.  Sin is a symptom of that.  And the carnality comes from misalignment between our soul and spirit.  So the LOF purges and purifies the carnality of the soul and as Scripture says, all things are made new . . .so after the fire of the lake, the truth is simply revealed . . .it was there all along, but the carnality of man buried it . . .for me, the resurrection is also dealing with the spirit of Man resurrecting from it's grave of the carnality within man.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 08:34:43 PMBabies have no mistakes to be burned out.
If they have to learn about good and evil then they first have to be thaught bad things and the unlearn them again...?
I've read an NDE that adressed infants.
The vision was that there was a big nursery. Angels where constantly teaching the kids in all kind of ways.

Not just the angels, or perhaps that's semantical, but the Apostles and Jesus Himself.  It's really cool watching them run to Jesus and gang up on Him, and to watch Him teaching them virtually verbatim what He taught while on earth.  It's awesome to watch them growing in wisdom and stature, and in awareness and favor with God and man.  They're sooo excited by what the see of the Holy Spirit's work in the earth.  The way many religious people on this earth are constantly talking of heaven, in the exact same way their constant conversation is about this earth. 

Nothing is more important to heaven than this earth right now.  Their excitement abounds about this earth.  They genuinely wish they could be here.  But, soon enough.  Not much longer and everyone will be hugging everyone again.  Heaven literally has hundreds of millions of kids.  All enjoying mountains, rivers, trees, an impossible amount of food, gold, gems, houses, boats, airplanes, rollercoasters, bicycles, motorcycles, picnic tables, skiing, animals from here and animals we've never seen before, flowers that never stop blooming, nonstop music and Gospel preaching/teaching, a rainbow like you've never seen before, colors, sounds, scents, and touch sensations many on this earth have never seen/experienced before, angels with windows/screens through/under their wings so you can see the multiverse, endless but not oppressive music, fantastic architecture like you've seen before and like you've never seen, etc.  The whole place is an absolute inferno of love, joy, and anticipation.

Sounds like you have been there Martin.
Could be because you are so far out  :reachout:

Question. I know Heaven is all about love. :Peck:
But are we allowed to tease former ETs like Matt Slick a little bit?  :mpardon:

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 10:48:56 PMSounds like you have been there Martin.
Could be because you are so far out  :reachout:

I'm going to take the long way around answering this one, in order to give a goal and a treasure map rather to paint another bull's eye on myself.  As every revelation is more than the sum total of it's parts of the Word, and as I've referred to in the past that the fruit of the recreated human spirit properly nurtured on the Word will do absolutely anything/everything that the gifts of the Holy Spirit will do, there are other revelations of the Word that'll start growing in someone and when they reach the level of maturity that Jesus described, then they'll bare fruit that though I guess you could say is genetically just like the tree, branch, vine, or whatever, is still a little different from the tree, vine, or whatever because it is fruit with the potential to nourish and the potential to further spread the population of the genetic code of the tree/branch and in due season the same fruit elsewhere. 

There came a point where I first started having revelations of the Word regarding the Covenant and regarding the Authority of the believer.  Each new revelation for a while was each additional strand of DNA for the full tree.  There came a point in those two revelations where I was dealing with the full picture and was no longer knowing in part and then in part and then in part and then in part, but could look at the full thing.  Then there came a point where when I kept pursuing the same truth in the Scriptures through the Holy Spirit and kept pressing in again and again and again in the same truths by both the Written Word and my practice of it, then it began to bare fruit.  And then I was looking at the process of the maturity of the fruit, while still doing no violence to the actual tree or vine that bore it. 

And even with certain types of natural fruit, you're dealing with X-number of years before that's worth anything, such as a grape vine needing 7 years to produce what you're really wanting to take a look at for some really nice juice or a fine wine.  Long story short, I can trace it to having followed that process where the revelations, in particular, of the Covenant and of the Believer's Authority are now doing something in my life that's a little bit different than just what comes through perfected love, perseverance, self control, and hope [or that couples with it] and I'm now to the point that with the open windows that I maintain over my life, I'm able to see both worlds simultaneously at any moment of the day or night.  Hebrews 6 talks about our hope beaming out of our bosom and entering beyond the veil, like a laser or hologram, where Jesus has gone before us and has been made a High Priest to the age after the order of Melchezedec.  (Contextually, High Priest to the age of the realization of that hope/passion that beats in our breast from His promises via the Scriptures and Holy Spirit.  Though ultimately you could say He's High Priest until 1Corinthians 15:28, just as we are in Him.)

When that starts maturing in a believer's life, then not only is answered prayer a more consistent and growing reality, [rather than the occasional faith accident that many believers never quite learn how to keep duplicating,] but all of the veils that it specifically says that Jesus tore through, you're able to see through the tears in the exact same way as you're able to see the circumcision of your spirit that Colossians talks about.  So, to say that I live in both worlds at once as easily and as freely without pointing to the particular revelations of faith, authority, and covenant would only make a spectacle out of me rather than being a good kick in the tail for everybody else to get to where they can see as clearly.  I just listed the particular revelations, half dozen or so, that'll do it.  And when you've finally pierced that veil with your sowing and reaping, it's still a gradual unveiling and there's still the normal temptations occasionally though sometimes⁽¹⁾ equally as powerfully as there had always been.  But if you delight yourself in the Lord, He'll cause you to ride upon the high places of the earth. 

Doesn't mean I'm not as human as anyone else.  It's the Word that'll produce it all, from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 which will be the second big bang, or perhaps the third depending on how you take 2Peter 3.  Doesn't mean I don't still have to live with myself and get along with myself, etc.  The process never changes of carefully cultivating the Word in your life.  When it finally starts producing in your life, and those are the weeping and gnashing of teeth years, seemingly, 'cause you'll see one or two dozen people already reaping at advanced levels throughout the Body, and you're still looking at the same wimpy puny twig in your garden wondering if it'll ever amount to anything.  Or at this stage that's when a lot of people will get very peculiar and extrabiblical about their sovereignty doctrines.  Yeah, Jesus was mutilated beyond recognition as even being a human being for God to really be holding out anything from you.  Makes sense to me! :sigh:  His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  It's usually all of the stuff that people are either trying to add to it or to do in place of it that gets really hard, burdensome, grievous, etc.

There are things that'll speed the process along, such as total immersion where you just don't have time for anything else any more.  Obedience to what God shares is a biggy.  I'm definitely nothing the least bit special, nor the least bit exceptionally intelligent or anything like that.  I'm average or probably pretty far below average in every single way with the exception of the tenacity to have never turned loose of it, but to keep it growing in my life at any costs to myself, reputation, my time, etc.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 10:48:56 PM
Question. I know Heaven is all about love. :Peck:
But are we allowed to tease former ETs like Matt Slick a little bit?  :mpardon:

I don't want to seem to spoil the fun, but sibling rivalry doesn't exist there, is probably the best way that I can put it.  There is the total realization and gratitude every step along the way there that it was always His graciousness from start to finish.  You'll even hear converted angels that have looked in on God's grace and been made alive in the spirit as a result that'll continually say "The Great God YHVH is merciful!!!!!!!"  Praise fills the air there, like profanity fills it here.  And you can definitely tell the difference as a result.  Apples, pears, coconuts, and walnuts as big as basketballs, and constantly the sound of children singing.  Constantly.  Animals that don't shy away from people.  I personally have that here with the animals of this world, but there it's more expected and normal or whatever.  Every moment is precious and is appreciated, but without any fear that it'll be anyone's last or whatever.  If you want a movie that even nails what the New Earth will be like, get a copy of "Star Trek: Insurrection," if you haven't already, and it'll give you a glimpse of what there's no other way of putting it, than by saying the romance of it all.

---

⁽¹⁾I had no better word than to use the word "sometimes" 'cause rarely could convey the wrong idea 'cause of it's subjective imprecision, but neither did I wish to convey anything approximating all of the time, regularly, or anything like that.  Quick example on temptations that can have all of the intensity in the world, though can be fleeting 'cause of experience with having overcome them in the past (Hebrews 5:12-14; Romans 12:1-3): I've already mentioned the building elsewhere that I saw yesterday that God spoke to me about.  While I was there, I saw some young female doctors that couldn't have been a year and a half out of medical school.  A small group of them too, not just one or two.  Absolutely stunning and brains and for nothing more than a split second, but for the fullness of that split second I was totally ravenous.  Ravenous is even too tame of a word.  And I was totally stunned for half a minute afterwards at the intensity.  Sometimes a reaction like that, particularly to a spiritual man, isn't going to be fully their lust, but what someone else is eminating.  God had to show me that one half a dozen years ago, or I was never going to overcome the condemnation that would try to sneak in with that.  But this time, for that whole half second, that was honestly me that was trying to keep my eyes from going green, trying to keep the shirt from ripping off of my back, and trying to keep from roaring.  But it was over with just as soon as I felt a whole lot stronger of an emotion than what got many people in prison over acting on that.  I had already judged that a long time ago over the Bread and Cup and right when I needed it, the fire fell and consumed that profane thing that had tried to enter into God's Temple.  In the Name of Jesus, I'll only have eyes for one woman when God finally brings her my way.

Martin,

Will these children/babies always be children and never grow up into adults? Will they never quite understand who Jesus was nor what he came to do for them? Will they never read the Bible nor know about pain, suffering, etc?

CHB

Quote from: martincisneros on April 29, 2009, 01:14:26 AM

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 10:48:56 PMSounds like you have been there Martin.
Could be because you are so far out  :reachout:

I'm going to take the long way around answering this one, in order to give a goal and a treasure map rather to paint another bull's eye on myself.  As every revelation is more than the sum total of it's parts of the Word, and as I've referred to in the past that the fruit of the recreated human spirit properly nurtured on the Word will do absolutely anything/everything that the gifts of the Holy Spirit will do, there are other revelations of the Word that'll start growing in someone and when they reach the level of maturity that Jesus described, then they'll bare fruit that though I guess you could say is genetically just like the tree, branch, vine, or whatever, is still a little different from the tree, vine, or whatever because it is fruit with the potential to nourish and the potential to further spread the population of the genetic code of the tree/branch and in due season the same fruit elsewhere. 

There came a point where I first started having revelations of the Word regarding the Covenant and regarding the Authority of the believer.  Each new revelation for a while was each additional strand of DNA for the full tree.  There came a point in those two revelations where I was dealing with the full picture and was no longer knowing in part and then in part and then in part and then in part, but could look at the full thing.  Then there came a point where when I kept pursuing the same truth in the Scriptures through the Holy Spirit and kept pressing in again and again and again in the same truths by both the Written Word and my practice of it, then it began to bare fruit.  And then I was looking at the process of the maturity of the fruit, while still doing no violence to the actual tree or vine that bore it. 

And even with certain types of natural fruit, you're dealing with X-number of years before that's worth anything, such as a grape vine needing 7 years to produce what you're really wanting to take a look at for some really nice juice or a fine wine.  Long story short, I can trace it to having followed that process where the revelations, in particular, of the Covenant and of the Believer's Authority are now doing something in my life that's a little bit different than just what comes through perfected love, perseverance, self control, and hope [or that couples with it] and I'm now to the point that with the open windows that I maintain over my life, I'm able to see both worlds simultaneously at any moment of the day or night.  Hebrews 6 talks about our hope beaming out of our bosom and entering beyond the veil, like a laser or hologram, where Jesus has gone before us and has been made a High Priest to the age after the order of Melchezedec.  (Contextually, High Priest to the age of the realization of that hope/passion that beats in our breast from His promises via the Scriptures and Holy Spirit.  Though ultimately you could say He's High Priest until 1Corinthians 15:28, just as we are in Him.)

When that starts maturing in a believer's life, then not only is answered prayer a more consistent and growing reality, [rather than the occasional faith accident that many believers never quite learn how to keep duplicating,] but all of the veils that it specifically says that Jesus tore through, you're able to see through the tears in the exact same way as you're able to see the circumcision of your spirit that Colossians talks about.  So, to say that I live in both worlds at once as easily and as freely without pointing to the particular revelations of faith, authority, and covenant would only make a spectacle out of me rather than being a good kick in the tail for everybody else to get to where they can see as clearly.  I just listed the particular revelations, half dozen or so, that'll do it.  And when you've finally pierced that veil with your sowing and reaping, it's still a gradual unveiling and there's still the normal temptations occasionally though sometimes⁽¹⁾ equally as powerfully as there had always been.  But if you delight yourself in the Lord, He'll cause you to ride upon the high places of the earth. 

Doesn't mean I'm not as human as anyone else.  It's the Word that'll produce it all, from Genesis 1:1 to 1Corinthians 15:28 which will be the second big bang, or perhaps the third depending on how you take 2Peter 3.  Doesn't mean I don't still have to live with myself and get along with myself, etc.  The process never changes of carefully cultivating the Word in your life.  When it finally starts producing in your life, and those are the weeping and gnashing of teeth years, seemingly, 'cause you'll see one or two dozen people already reaping at advanced levels throughout the Body, and you're still looking at the same wimpy puny twig in your garden wondering if it'll ever amount to anything.  Or at this stage that's when a lot of people will get very peculiar and extrabiblical about their sovereignty doctrines.  Yeah, Jesus was mutilated beyond recognition as even being a human being for God to really be holding out anything from you.  Makes sense to me! :sigh:  His yoke is easy and His burden is light.  It's usually all of the stuff that people are either trying to add to it or to do in place of it that gets really hard, burdensome, grievous, etc.

There are things that'll speed the process along, such as total immersion where you just don't have time for anything else any more.  Obedience to what God shares is a biggy.  I'm definitely nothing the least bit special, nor the least bit exceptionally intelligent or anything like that.  I'm average or probably pretty far below average in every single way with the exception of the tenacity to have never turned loose of it, but to keep it growing in my life at any costs to myself, reputation, my time, etc.

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 28, 2009, 10:48:56 PM
Question. I know Heaven is all about love. :Peck:
But are we allowed to tease former ETs like Matt Slick a little bit?  :mpardon:

I don't want to seem to spoil the fun, but sibling rivalry doesn't exist there, is probably the best way that I can put it.  There is the total realization and gratitude every step along the way there that it was always His graciousness from start to finish.  You'll even hear converted angels that have looked in on God's grace and been made alive in the spirit as a result that'll continually say "The Great God YHVH is merciful!!!!!!!"  Praise fills the air there, like profanity fills it here.  And you can definitely tell the difference as a result.  Apples, pears, coconuts, and walnuts as big as basketballs, and constantly the sound of children singing.  Constantly.  Animals that don't shy away from people.  I personally have that here with the animals of this world, but there it's more expected and normal or whatever.  Every moment is precious and is appreciated, but without any fear that it'll be anyone's last or whatever.  If you want a movie that even nails what the New Earth will be like, get a copy of "Star Trek: Insurrection," if you haven't already, and it'll give you a glimpse of what there's no other way of putting it, than by saying the romance of it all.

---

⁽¹⁾I had no better word than to use the word "sometimes" 'cause rarely could convey the wrong idea 'cause of it's subjective imprecision, but neither did I wish to convey anything approximating all of the time, regularly, or anything like that.  Quick example on temptations that can have all of the intensity in the world, though can be fleeting 'cause of experience with having overcome them in the past (Hebrews 5:12-14; Romans 12:1-3): I've already mentioned the building elsewhere that I saw yesterday that God spoke to me about.  While I was there, I saw some young female doctors that couldn't have been a year and a half out of medical school.  A small group of them too, not just one or two.  Absolutely stunning and brains and for nothing more than a split second, but for the fullness of that split second I was totally ravenous.  Ravenous is even too tame of a word.  And I was totally stunned for half a minute afterwards at the intensity.  Sometimes a reaction like that, particularly to a spiritual man, isn't going to be fully their lust, but what someone else is eminating.  God had to show me that one half a dozen years ago, or I was never going to overcome the condemnation that would try to sneak in with that.  But this time, for that whole half second, that was honestly me that was trying to keep my eyes from going green, trying to keep the shirt from ripping off of my back, and trying to keep from roaring.  But it was over with just as soon as I felt a whole lot stronger of an emotion than what got many people in prison over acting on that.  I had already judged that a long time ago over the Bread and Cup and right when I needed it, the fire fell and consumed that profane thing that had tried to enter into God's Temple.  In the Name of Jesus, I'll only have eyes for one woman when God finally brings her my way.

:sigh:

My natural inclination would have been to get frustrated with you for being so 'cryptic' (again), except that I realized that it's just because it seems that I have so far to go. If I understood half of what you were saying there, I'd feel like I was actually getting somewhere with life. I was going to say "spiritual life", but I mean Life in the sense of zoen aionion.

So as it turns out, I'm not frustrated with you at all, I'm frustrated with me.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 29, 2009, 01:14:26 AM
While I was there, I saw some young female doctors that couldn't have been a year and a half out of medical school.  A small group of them too, not just one or two.  Absolutely stunning and brains and for nothing more than a split second, but for the fullness of that split second I was totally ravenous.  Ravenous is even too tame of a word.  And I was totally stunned for half a minute afterwards at the intensity.  Sometimes a reaction like that, particularly to a spiritual man, isn't going to be fully their lust, but what someone else is emanating. 

:cloud9: Martin, to me this sounds like desire being raised up in you, and before you say, "DUH" to me for what appears to be my amazing grasp of the obvious (:laughing7:), desire is the 4th part of the soul He showed me; and this, contrary to the name of it, does not have to do with only sexual desire, but I would it describe as like the life force controlling the soul, for a clear lack of words on my part.

I had this raised up in me in a split second, to my shock, during that 32 day carrot/water fast He had me on. I was NOT hungry at all by this point (it was around day 28), and it was exactly as you describe, a SUDDEN RAVENOUS "appetite". I want to make this plain as I can, it was NOT HUNGER PAINS, it was the strength of something of the soul, the "latent" or hidden power of soul, I would say. And it was HUNGRY for anything that was NOT part of God's perfect will for me at that moment.

I feel sure this was one thing that was raised up and overcome by Jesus in the wilderness. And Reformer, I hope you're reading this, because I also thought of your post (I had to leave town and didn't have time to reply to it) about how He allowed you to see yourself once thru the Spirit. I think we ALL look like this until this thing is overcome.
I think this ties in also with something He gave me while praying for someone one time.

He told me to lay my hand on her jaw and command it to be "broken". I was REAL nervous about this one, but I heard it several times and I finally apologized to her for how bizarre this sounded, but that was He said, and then I did it.

Immediately, He gave me the understanding that He was having to me to break the jaw of her "carnal ass nature", and He had me to decree that she would only eat things that had the life of the Spirit in them from that point on, ie. no more eating of the carnal mind's doctrines. He tied this in with how Sampson killed more Phillistines (stands for self) with the FRESH (as in freshly killed) jawbone of an ass. Blessings...

 :sigh:

Quote from: CHB on April 29, 2009, 01:54:53 AMWill these children/babies always be children and never grow up into adults?

They're growing.  They're growing seemingly with the same sense of time as here, though time for them isn't wearying.  If there were no time there, then there could be no music, movement of self or of rivers, grass, and flowers, etc.  When people try to say that there's no time there, that's just a religious mind gone nuts and not knowing what it's talking about, or parroting what it's always heard from others.  Or perhaps not knowing what to call it if they were gone less than a minute from the earth, in their own minds, only to find out that they were gone for hours in earth time and had already had some major surgery or had been declared dead, etc.  As far as our experience of time there, think in terms of episodes of Smallville as far as Clark Kent's experience with time when he's able to move at his level, where he can see a bullet traveling, can follow it with his eyes, and seemingly has all of the time in the world to react, intercept it, etc. The Superman Returns movie had a similar scene with Superman intercepting a bullet meant for a security guard if I remember correctly. 

Many Christians have had those moments with God, or other types of moments, whether near death experiences that didn't quite end in their expulsion from their bodies, etc., but where a second seemed to last forever.  When you're participating fully in love, it is possible to have individual seconds that have all of the meaning of all of eternity in them.  Meditation in the Scriptures can even go there, when you're totally full of the Word and some situation causes absolutely every single promise that covers a situation to just leap to attention in you and you're aware of all of it at once.  There can be moments of telling someone you love with all of your heart that you love them and time will somehow get transcended for you and your saying that can seem to take all of eternity, even if in so-called real time it took you three to five seconds to say that.  Just a moment of saying that when you're to that level can be more rejuvenating than a week or two vacation. 

St. Paul mentions redeeming time in this way but doesn't go into a lot of elaboration in a way that's easily traced with a Concordance.  There are some subjects in the Scriptures, such as this one of redeeming time, that a Concordance is virtually going to be useless 'cause it'll be a matter of a lot of interrelated principles and an overall sense of what to do as a disciple, an imitator of God, etc.  Perhaps a Concordance would be useful for some people that have already familiarized themselves enough with the Bible and who have a more discriminating mind than I do for being able to find it that way.  But after a while, it's going to be a matter of this aspect of the blessing, or this principle of love, and this principle of keeping the Word, etc., etc., etc.

Quote from: CHB on April 29, 2009, 01:54:53 AMWill they never quite understand who Jesus was nor what he came to do for them?

They can hear all He's telling them about it, and can experience it as He speaks.  No one quotes Scripture quite like Him.  A genuine understanding of Him isn't coming out of the carnal mind being supplemented with the Word.  The Word has to replace all of that and they're beginning many times with a clean slate.  I believe that when the Scriptures say that Jesus was tempted by the devil in the wilderness in a moment of time, that that's literally all it was from various odd moments that I've had over the last few years, although Hebrews 5 describes His regular prayer life as including strong tears for His own deliverance and that of the people.  And once made perfect, He became the author of temporal deliverance for all that obey Him, both in what He'd say to them as well as in His example or how the Scriptures teach us to partake of our part of His sufferings, which is our deliverance from everything we're redeemed from by His sufferings. 

He bore our sin, so we're obligated to resist it.  That's our part of His suffering.  Spiritual resistance.  He bore our sickness, according to Matthew 8:17 and 1Peter 2:24, therefore we're obligated to resist it.  He bore our poverty according to 2Corinthians 8, therefore the Scriptures teach that there's grace for resisting it and for giving and receiving.  et. al.  Nothing else is acknowledged as our suffering, or plowing together with Him in the Scriptures or in the courts of heaven so that we're reigning together with Him.  You know you're partaking in the fellowship of His sufferings when you're reigning together with Him.  Count it all joy when you fall into diverse temptations, testings, trials, and persecutions knowing that the resistance you're putting against the temptations, testings, trials, and persecutions with simply obeying Colossians 2:6-7 will make you perfect and entire wanting nothing.

Quote from: CHB on April 29, 2009, 01:54:53 AMWill they never read the Bible nor know about pain, suffering, etc?

They have the Word made flesh, as well as Moses, the Prophets, the Apostles, copies of the Scriptures, and The Original of the Scriptures that's right where the Blood of Jesus is at.  And there's not this museum attitude about it of "don't you dare touch!!"  It's not like that at all.

Quote from: Doc on April 29, 2009, 02:21:03 AMMy natural inclination would have been to get frustrated with you for being so 'cryptic' (again), except that I realized that it's just because it seems that I have so far to go. If I understood half of what you were saying there, I'd feel like I was actually getting somewhere with life. I was going to say "spiritual life", but I mean Life in the sense of zoen aionion.

Proverbs 2:20 through chapter 5 verse 2 is a Scriptural address along the same lines of what I just said, with special emphasis upon chapter 4:20 through chapter 5 verse 2.  Psalms 112 or 119 would be the version of what I said from the Psalms.  The gardening illustrations of Jesus simply give us a pictoral or visualization of what's going on as we're practicing Proverbs 4:20-27 and Colossians 3:12-17, and how to expect gradual spiritual growth.  Also gives us a clue to what's going on in someone's life that's living by the Word but not necessarily in the miraculous powers of the Holy Spirit, but they're still consistently healed, having more than enough, protected from everything, etc. 

The Holy Spirit's ministry is mainly about being equipped to minister to others and to be able to articulate to someone else what's going on in your spiritual life.  The Holy Spirit wasn't really promised to us, for us.  We're told from cover to cover in that Bible to walk by the Written Word, whether in Moses, Joshua, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Prophets, the Gospels, St. Paul's writings, St. Peter's writings, and St. John's writings so that when some folks around here want to be very dismissive of Scripture, I have a genuine right to question whether they're Christians at all 'cause the Bible is clear about that being "God's spirituality 101" and "Relationship with God 101."  I've been tempted to compile all of the individual verses and whole passages that use the language of Joshua 1:8 and John 15:7, but have thought that I'd genuinely be busy for a while. 

I've got a Bible where the subject of faith is meticulously highlighted throughout the Bible, but not necessarily with only focusing on the verses that speak of the Scriptures as our righteousness, faith, hope, love, success, teaching, prophecy, psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, answered prayer, wisdom, sanctification, redemption, etc.  To me, it's something so basic that I really have to just look at folks sometimes and just think to myself that they really don't care about what He cares about at all.  They're trying to fashion Jesus in their own image.  When it says He's the Word made flesh, that's precisely what it means.  At any given moment of the day you already know what He's going to say if you know the Book.  And I am pressing with everything that I've got to be nothing but the same as well. 

There have been sooo many examples of people being belligerent with these truths that weren't really practicing them, or that were sorta in that disgusting in between place from where they started out and where they were trying to get to, to where they were an awkward looking tree weathering a storm and looking like they were taking about as much punishment as anyone else in certain areas.  I don't believe that being a walking Bible would necessitate being the very thing that some folks around here have been lashing out at.  This forum is a call to what the Scriptures have to say about these things.  A lot of people seem to misinterpret that with what everyday life is going to look like living by these principles. 

The Word was the yoke that Jesus said was easy and the burden that He said was light because that's what He was constantly pointing people to and upbraiding them for their unbelief for not believing all things that the Scriptures were telling them about this or that and usually about Him but not exclusively.  In other words, the real Jesus will chew you out if He knows you to have had every opportunity to understand and believe what the Scriptures say, but you continued in your own thinking about things instead of the taking the Isaiah 55 mandate of receiving His thoughts and His ways as the dew of heaven and the harvesting of the fields of your life and of the world.  This may shock quite a few folks, but rather than trying to argue with me emotionally, I hope they'd reread the 4 Gospels and Acts really really carefully and honestly: 

Jesus has absolutely nothing to offer anyone but the Word.  But if you'll let Him impregnate you with the Word in every area of Kingdom thinking about all things that pertain to life and godliness, money and sanctification, generocity, the hundredfold, and beyond, then His Will will be done in your life, in this life, as it is in heaven, as you stay out of offense and keep every care cast upon Him in the assurance that if the Book kept Him invincible all of the days of His ministry and even guided the specifics of when He seemed to be His weakest, yet St. Paul says He was His strongest so that none of His bones were broken, His death was by crucifixion to fulfill the Scriptures, etc., etc., etc.  Then the Scriptures will begin to order all of our lives and we'll be the Psalm 1 trees by the water that's bringing forth fruit in their own season, if they'll just avoid sitting in the seat of the scornful. 

Half the UR folks that I know, and literally half that I know from my entire life, whether online or elsewhere offline, have been really really bad about sitting in the seat of the scornful.  They'll think that they don't, but the Scriptures don't qualify that, that as long as you're only scornful of the spiritual things you don't like then it's okay.  No, it says there, in Isaiah 58, 2Timothy 2, and in countless, countless other places to refuse to go there, to withdraw yourself, etc.  It's the Word that redeems our time, and although everything that we do for others doesn't have to have a Scripture emblazened in it, we can still bathe everything in the Spirit of the Word and make sure that everything has His excellence, has His abilities when we release it into the lives of others, etc. 

Imagine writing something and dozens of people get healed in their bodies, or giving someone something for Christmas at the Holy Spirit's prompting that that was just the very thing, and then when you blessed it and sowed it into their lives, suddenly they weren't diabetics any more.  Life and death decisions for countless people are made every single moment of every single day by Christians and their attitudes about the Word and it's place in their lives.  We're surrounded by a countless cloud of witnesses in the heavens that are cheering us on, to make the difference that they never even did, to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and to resist rather than assist the devil.  Anyway, I'm absolutely nobody and absolutely nobody loves all of you. :HeartThrob:

Quote from: martincisneros on April 29, 2009, 05:54:50 AM
We're surrounded by a countless cloud of witnesses in the heavens that are cheering us on, to make the difference that they never even did,

I do agree with you on that.

Not sure if we are thinking of this in the same way or not...
but I do, in my heart, see those who have passed on from this earth, like you said.."cheering us on".
:HeartThrob:

Quote from: Cardinal on April 29, 2009, 04:24:42 AM :cloud9: Martin, to me this sounds like desire being raised up in you, and before you say, "DUH" to me for what appears to be my amazing grasp of the obvious (:laughing7:), desire is the 4th part of the soul He showed me; and this, contrary to the name of it, does not have to do with only sexual desire, but I would it describe as like the life force controlling the soul, for a clear lack of words on my part.

I had this raised up in me in a split second, to my shock, during that 32 day carrot/water fast He had me on. I was NOT hungry at all by this point (it was around day 28), and it was exactly as you describe, a SUDDEN RAVENOUS "appetite". I want to make this plain as I can, it was NOT HUNGER PAINS, it was the strength of something of the soul, the "latent" or hidden power of soul, I would say. And it was HUNGRY for anything that was NOT part of God's perfect will for me at that moment.

I feel sure this was one thing that was raised up and overcome by Jesus in the wilderness.

Yeah, it's the final temptation before all things genuinely experientially become yours.  'Cause if the Holy Spirit won't let it go beyond that "moment of time," then there's nothing more that needs to be proven to you, your harvest, the devil, the throne of grace, etc., about your character, nature, calling, and election and your senses are exercised to discern the difference between good and evil.  There was zero question that that was the furthest thing from my will, my desires, etc.  I just got broadsided.  Am I capable of being tempted further?  There's always the temptation to set aside the Scriptures and to do anything some other way.  However, it is possible to shield your life from attempting to be wise in your own eyes.  The devil will even try to use the Scriptures to try to prove to you that the Scriptures teach for you to set aside the Scriptures.  That's when you've really fallen from grace if you ever fell for that, and the temptation to do that ever escalated to that point that if it was some pet interpretation of one or two verses to try to validate a Wordless life with the smoke and mirrors of supposedly only pursuing the living Word.  The Spirit -- the true Spirit -- doesn't disagree with the Word, according to 1John and countless other passages.

Quote from: Cardinal on April 29, 2009, 04:24:42 AMHe gave me the understanding that He was having to me to break the jaw of her "carnal ass nature", and He had me to decree that she would only eat things that had the life of the Spirit in them from that point on, ie. no more eating of the carnal mind's doctrines. He tied this in with how Sampson killed more Phillistines (stands for self) with the FRESH (as in freshly killed) jawbone of an ass. Blessings...

All judgment, world governance, and Church governance has been committed to the Church, particularly to the ministry offices that Jesus appoints.  St. Paul told a Church one time, writing from a dungeon, that when you are gathered together and my spirit is gathered together with you through the power of God, you are to deliver such a one to Satan for the destruction of the flesh that their spirit would be saved in the day of the Lord.  On another occaision he spoke the Word and blinded someone with the same grace that lead to his own conversion.  The twin extremes to be avoided is a salivating attitude of having that anointing that deals with Ananias and Saphira types and the opposite extreme that tries to carnally think that God would never do that in our day.  God does fire some folks and send others on medical leave, particularly those that don't rightly discern the Bread and Cup.  That's where our prayers for each other for the Day of the Lord to be delayed, as the early Church would regularly pray, is sooo important, so that we'd come to that point through the teaching and disciplining of the Word of being able to present every single man and woman (and yes, married ones too) perfect in Christ with the energy that He so superhumanly works in us to this end, according to Colossians 1's closing verse.  And as I've been contending, it is the Word that Scripturally does the perfecting for every good work.

The anointing is on the Word, which is the Seed body of the Spirit.

Another picture:  the fire consumes the oil in the 66 piece lampstand.  The Written Word is the lampstand; but, it's written in our hearts, so the lampstand represents The Eclessia.  The oil is supplied by beating the harvested olives and straining out solids, ourselves Priests co-laboring with God; but, it has to continually be refreshed with new oil.  This seems the oil of our spirit, while The fire is Spirit in another aspect, God as Spirit.

Help me to understand better.

 :cloud9: Thank you for the confirmation of your post, Martin. Sometimes with the things of God you think, 'Am I losing my mind here or what?" ........Then He steps in and tells you, yes you are, but that's a good thing.  :mshock: :laughing7:

Oh, ok Lord...........had me worried there for a second.  :mblush:  :laughing7: I've had several conversations with Him like this over the years.  :winkgrin: Blessings....

Quote from: reFORMer on April 29, 2009, 06:20:43 AM
The anointing is on the Word, which is the Seed body of the Spirit.

Another picture:  the fire consumes the oil in the 66 piece lampstand.  The Written Word is the lampstand; but, it's written in our hearts, so the lampstand represents The Eclessia.  The oil is supplied by beating the harvested olives and straining out solids, ourselves Priests co-laboring with God; but, it has to continually be refreshed with new oil.  This seems the oil of our spirit, while The fire is Spirit in another aspect, God as Spirit.

Help me to understand better.

:cloud9: I like that reformer.....never noticed that about the lampstand having 66 pieces before.  :thumbsup:

You know, everyone's first thought of fire is that it burns and destroys, but it also brings light to walk by in the darkness. Without the fire, the priests wouldn't have been able to even see the lampstand in the pitch black room, or see the shewbread (Word) to eat it. Like a blind man, they'd have to feel their way thru the darkness.

Oil is soothing and makes the face/nature to shine (glory). Moses got a good "oiling", LOL.....and so we were told to wash our face (nature being washed with the Word) and anoint our head with oil when we fast, symbolic of what God is doing with us in the Spirit when we do. Blessings....

About the lampstand did you know the arms each have 2 'names' that represent the creation and salvation story?

 :cloud9: No, WW, I don't know about that, either. Do "enLIGHTen me, please.   :thumbsup:  What are the names? Blessings....

As any atheist knows...  :LH:

Creation. From right to left (Hebrew)

1] berecrap - In the begining
2] barah - created
3] Elohim - God
4] *
5] hashamaym - the heavens
6] va'echt - and
7] ha'aretz - the earth

So it just is Genesis 1:1
* center is a bit special.
eht - alef/tav (=alpha/omega
In Hebrew words are made up of letter. More like symbols.
Those symbols have a name like our letters but also a meaning.
Plus they represent a thing.
So symbol = name + thing + meaning
Alef = Ox + Strength/leader/first
Tav = Sign (looks 100% like a cross being carried + Convenant/seal

All 6 lamps have a second name.
The name of feast. = summary of our salvation = summary of marriage rite (christ, bride etc)
Right to left this time
1] Passover
2] Unleavened bread
3] First fruits
4] Servant
5] Trumpets
6] Atonement
7] Tabernacles

4....
So the middle is servant and ruler.
Also called servant lamp because it light the other 6
Light of the world?

I'm getting more and more convinced that understanding Hebrew (customs) is a huge advantage in Bible study.
Funny fact. The very first letter in the Hebrew Torah (Gen 1:1) Has the meaning of household/family.
Think about that....

Quote from: WhiteWings on April 29, 2009, 09:41:29 PM
As any atheist knows...  :LH:

:cloud9: WW, you're hilarious. And I've got to say for a self-proclaimed atheist, you're doing a banner job of studying. Good work.  :thumbsup: I'll be reading this over and over and checking this out more.

I'm getting more and more convinced that understanding Hebrew (customs) is a huge advantage in Bible study.
Funny fact. The very first letter in the Hebrew Torah (Gen 1:1) Has the meaning of household/family.
Think about that....

I've been saying this for 23 years now, with few agreeing with me. Who knew God was going to bring an atheist to agree with me?! Is God cool, or what?  :winkgrin: Blessings to you, my BROTHER.

Quote from: martincisneros on April 29, 2009, 05:54:50 AM

Quote from: Doc on April 29, 2009, 02:21:03 AMMy natural inclination would have been to get frustrated with you for being so 'cryptic' (again), except that I realized that it's just because it seems that I have so far to go. If I understood half of what you were saying there, I'd feel like I was actually getting somewhere with life. I was going to say "spiritual life", but I mean Life in the sense of zoen aionion.

Proverbs 2:20 through chapter 5 verse 2 is a Scriptural address along the same lines of what I just said, with special emphasis upon chapter 4:20 through chapter 5 verse 2.  Psalms 112 or 119 would be the version of what I said from the Psalms.  The gardening illustrations of Jesus simply give us a pictoral or visualization of what's going on as we're practicing Proverbs 4:20-27 and Colossians 3:12-17, and how to expect gradual spiritual growth.  Also gives us a clue to what's going on in someone's life that's living by the Word but not necessarily in the miraculous powers of the Holy Spirit, but they're still consistently healed, having more than enough, protected from everything, etc. 

The Holy Spirit's ministry is mainly about being equipped to minister to others and to be able to articulate to someone else what's going on in your spiritual life.  The Holy Spirit wasn't really promised to us, for us.  We're told from cover to cover in that Bible to walk by the Written Word, whether in Moses, Joshua, Psalms, Proverbs, Ecclesiastes, the Prophets, the Gospels, St. Paul's writings, St. Peter's writings, and St. John's writings so that when some folks around here want to be very dismissive of Scripture, I have a genuine right to question whether they're Christians at all 'cause the Bible is clear about that being "God's spirituality 101" and "Relationship with God 101."  I've been tempted to compile all of the individual verses and whole passages that use the language of Joshua 1:8 and John 15:7, but have thought that I'd genuinely be busy for a while. 

I've got a Bible where the subject of faith is meticulously highlighted throughout the Bible, but not necessarily with only focusing on the verses that speak of the Scriptures as our righteousness, faith, hope, love, success, teaching, prophecy, psalms, hymns, and spiritual songs, answered prayer, wisdom, sanctification, redemption, etc.  To me, it's something so basic that I really have to just look at folks sometimes and just think to myself that they really don't care about what He cares about at all.  They're trying to fashion Jesus in their own image.  When it says He's the Word made flesh, that's precisely what it means.  At any given moment of the day you already know what He's going to say if you know the Book.  And I am pressing with everything that I've got to be nothing but the same as well. 

There have been sooo many examples of people being belligerent with these truths that weren't really practicing them, or that were sorta in that disgusting in between place from where they started out and where they were trying to get to, to where they were an awkward looking tree weathering a storm and looking like they were taking about as much punishment as anyone else in certain areas.  I don't believe that being a walking Bible would necessitate being the very thing that some folks around here have been lashing out at.  This forum is a call to what the Scriptures have to say about these things.  A lot of people seem to misinterpret that with what everyday life is going to look like living by these principles. 

The Word was the yoke that Jesus said was easy and the burden that He said was light because that's what He was constantly pointing people to and upbraiding them for their unbelief for not believing all things that the Scriptures were telling them about this or that and usually about Him but not exclusively.  In other words, the real Jesus will chew you out if He knows you to have had every opportunity to understand and believe what the Scriptures say, but you continued in your own thinking about things instead of the taking the Isaiah 55 mandate of receiving His thoughts and His ways as the dew of heaven and the harvesting of the fields of your life and of the world.  This may shock quite a few folks, but rather than trying to argue with me emotionally, I hope they'd reread the 4 Gospels and Acts really really carefully and honestly: 

Jesus has absolutely nothing to offer anyone but the Word.  But if you'll let Him impregnate you with the Word in every area of Kingdom thinking about all things that pertain to life and godliness, money and sanctification, generocity, the hundredfold, and beyond, then His Will will be done in your life, in this life, as it is in heaven, as you stay out of offense and keep every care cast upon Him in the assurance that if the Book kept Him invincible all of the days of His ministry and even guided the specifics of when He seemed to be His weakest, yet St. Paul says He was His strongest so that none of His bones were broken, His death was by crucifixion to fulfill the Scriptures, etc., etc., etc.  Then the Scriptures will begin to order all of our lives and we'll be the Psalm 1 trees by the water that's bringing forth fruit in their own season, if they'll just avoid sitting in the seat of the scornful. 

Half the UR folks that I know, and literally half that I know from my entire life, whether online or elsewhere offline, have been really really bad about sitting in the seat of the scornful.  They'll think that they don't, but the Scriptures don't qualify that, that as long as you're only scornful of the spiritual things you don't like then it's okay.  No, it says there, in Isaiah 58, 2Timothy 2, and in countless, countless other places to refuse to go there, to withdraw yourself, etc.  It's the Word that redeems our time, and although everything that we do for others doesn't have to have a Scripture emblazened in it, we can still bathe everything in the Spirit of the Word and make sure that everything has His excellence, has His abilities when we release it into the lives of others, etc. 

Imagine writing something and dozens of people get healed in their bodies, or giving someone something for Christmas at the Holy Spirit's prompting that that was just the very thing, and then when you blessed it and sowed it into their lives, suddenly they weren't diabetics any more.  Life and death decisions for countless people are made every single moment of every single day by Christians and their attitudes about the Word and it's place in their lives.  We're surrounded by a countless cloud of witnesses in the heavens that are cheering us on, to make the difference that they never even did, to take every thought captive to the obedience of Christ, and to resist rather than assist the devil.  Anyway, I'm absolutely nobody and absolutely nobody loves all of you. :HeartThrob:

Thanks for that, Martin. I wasn't trying to say that you were being extra-biblical, just that I lacked understanding. Most of those scriptures you pointed out had to do with what we might refer to as "spiritual disciplines", and I think to a large extent, those have been missing from my daily walk. So, perhaps that's the next step in further growth for me; implementing those things.

Looks like this forum is filtering on naughty words.

My previous post:
1] berecrap - In the begining

Should be

1] beresh!t - In the begining

---

Forgot one "lamp name"
Dunno what it's called in English.
The part that touches the table it is standing on. Foot of the lamp?
Better would be 'the part that rests on the table' because that part is called Sabbat

QuoteLooks like this forum is filtering on naughty words.

My previous post:
1] berecrap - In the begining

Should be

1] beresh!t - In the begining

I know it's off topic, but this happens also when you want to write Pe(s)hitta, the Aramaic New Testament

willieH: Hi :hithere:  brother Z  :eek:

Peace be untaya me-bratha  :afFro:

Quote from: Zeek on April 20, 2009, 04:51:51 AM
Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



fearful

G5398
φοβερός
phoberos
fob-er-os'
From G5401; frightful, that is, (objectively) formidable: - fearful, terrible.

Sorry brother Z :eek:  ---

But the bringer of FEAR, does not bring LOVE... for PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTS OUT FEAR... 1 John 4:18

ALL are JUDGED NOW... as JESUS plainly said:  John 12:31  ALL are in the WORLD during their lifetimes, and NOW is when those lifetimes are JUDGED...

We are ALL in the HAND of the LIVING GOD at ALL TIMES, whether we be in the MARRED or REFINISHED conditions -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:18-23

The observation of these verses is INCOMPLETE concerning LOVE -- if FEAR is the result of the observation... and it the intent of the message conveyed...

VENGENCE is an ALREADY FULFILLED item... CHRIST fulfilled ALL on behalf of the SINFUL Children of YHVH... Rom 5 --- where SIN abounded, ...GRACE did (and DOES) ...MUCH MORE ABOUND.  John 1:29 - 2 Cor 5:19

Which is WHY He told HIS FOLLOWERS to FORGIVE Enemies, for GRACE is the NT message of LOVE... and within that message, ...the OT message of VENGENCE is dissolved...  :dontknow:

When ENEMIES are BEFRIENDED, they CEASE being ENEMIES...  :dontknow:

The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS bro... not a message filled with TERROR and VENGENCE which is born of the makeup and content of the NATURAL and CARNAL heart of man...

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?


CHB

Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

Psa 5:5  The foolish shall not stand in thy sight: thou hatest all workers of iniquity.

Psa 5:6  Thou shalt destroy them that speak leasing: the LORD will abhor the bloody and deceitful man.

Psa 5:7  But as for me, I will come into thy house in the multitude of thy mercy: and in thy fear will I worship toward thy holy temple.

Psa 5:8  Lead me, O LORD, in thy righteousness because of mine enemies; make thy way straight before my face.

Psa 5:9  For there is no faithfulness in their mouth; their inward part is very wickedness; their throat is an open sepulchre; they flatter with their tongue.

Psa 5:10  Destroy thou them, O God; let them fall by their own counsels; cast them out in the multitude of their transgressions; for they have rebelled against thee.

Psa 5:11 But let all those that put their trust in thee rejoice: let them ever shout for joy, because thou defendest them: let them also that love thy name be joyful in thee.

Psa 5:12  For thou, LORD, wilt bless the righteous; with favour wilt thou compass him as with a shield.

Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.


Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.


Psa 4:3  But know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

Quote from: willieH on April 29, 2009, 11:40:48 PM
willieH: Hi :hithere:  brother Z  :eek:

Peace be untaya me-bratha  :afFro:

Quote from: Zeek on April 20, 2009, 04:51:51 AM
Heb 10:29  Of how much sorer punishment, suppose ye, shall he be thought worthy, who hath trodden under foot the Son of God, and hath counted the blood of the covenant, wherewith he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and hath done despite unto the Spirit of grace?

Heb 10:30  For we know him that hath said, Vengeance belongeth unto me, I will recompense, saith the Lord. And again, The Lord shall judge his people.

Heb 10:31  It is a fearful thing to fall into the hands of the living God.



fearful

G5398
φοβερός
phoberos
fob-er-os'
From G5401; frightful, that is, (objectively) formidable: - fearful, terrible.

Sorry brother Z :eek:  ---

But the bringer of FEAR, does not bring LOVE... for PERFECT LOVE, ...CASTS OUT FEAR... 1 John 4:18

ALL are JUDGED NOW... as JESUS plainly said:  John 12:31  ALL are in the WORLD during their lifetimes, and NOW is when those lifetimes are JUDGED...

We are ALL in the HAND of the LIVING GOD at ALL TIMES, whether we be in the MARRED or REFINISHED conditions -- Jer 18:4 -- Rom 9:18-23

The observation of these verses is INCOMPLETE concerning LOVE -- if FEAR is the result of the observation... and it the intent of the message conveyed...

VENGENCE is an ALREADY FULFILLED item... CHRIST fulfilled ALL on behalf of the SINFUL Children of YHVH... Rom 5 --- where SIN abounded, ...GRACE did (and DOES) ...MUCH MORE ABOUND.  John 1:29 - 2 Cor 5:19

Which is WHY He told HIS FOLLOWERS to FORGIVE Enemies, for GRACE is the NT message of LOVE... and within that message, ...the OT message of VENGENCE is dissolved...  :dontknow:

When ENEMIES are BEFRIENDED, they CEASE being ENEMIES...  :dontknow:

The GOSPEL is GOOD NEWS bro... not a message filled with TERROR and VENGENCE which is born of the makeup and content of the NATURAL and CARNAL heart of man...

...willieH  :hithere:  :hithere:  :hithere:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?


Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:8  But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.

Rom 5:9  Much more then, being now justified by his blood, we shall be saved from wrath through him.

Rom 5:10  For if, when we were enemies, we were reconciled to God by the death of his Son, much more, being reconciled, we shall be saved by his life.

Rom 5:11  And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.

Rom 5:15  But not as the offence, so also is the free gift. For if through the offence of one many be dead, much more the grace of God, and the gift by grace, which is by one man, Jesus Christ, hath abounded unto many.

Rom 5:2  By whom also we have access by faith into this grace wherein we stand, and rejoice in hope of the glory of God.

Rom 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive  abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:20  Moreover the law entered, that the offence might abound. But where sin abounded, grace did much more abound:

Rom 5:17  For if by one man's offence death reigned by one; much more they which receive  abundance of grace and of the gift of righteousness shall reign in life by one, Jesus Christ.)

Rom 5:21  That as sin hath reigned unto death, even so might grace reign through righteousness unto eternal life by Jesus Christ our Lord.

Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear,   pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


save with fear


G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Quote from: Zeek on April 30, 2009, 03:13:42 AM
Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear,   pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


save with fear


G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Many principles of Scripture are very misunderstood... such as the FEAR you propose above... as part of your message which is supposedly, the GOSPEL...

GOD is LOVE:  1 John 4:8

GOD is PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL is PEACE:  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

NO FEAR in LOVE:  1 John 4:18

NO PEACE in FEAR:  1 John 4:18

...willieH  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 06:17:54 AM

Quote from: Zeek on April 30, 2009, 03:13:42 AM
Jud 1:3  Beloved, when I gave all diligence to write unto you of the common salvation, it was needful for me to write unto you, and exhort you that ye should earnestly contend for the faith which was once delivered unto the saints.

Jud 1:4  For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness, and denying the only Lord God, and our Lord Jesus Christ.

Jud 1:5  I will therefore put you in remembrance, though ye once knew this, how that the Lord, having saved the people out of the land of Egypt, afterward destroyed them that believed not.

Jud 1:8  Likewise also these filthy dreamers defile the flesh, despise dominion, and speak evil of dignities.

Jud 1:11  Woe unto them! for they have gone in the way of Cain, and ran greedily after the error of Balaam for reward, and perished in the gainsaying of Core.


Jud 1:13  Raging waves of the sea, foaming out their own shame; wandering stars, to whom is reserved the blackness of darkness for ever.

Jud 1:17  But, beloved, remember ye the words which were spoken before of the apostles of our Lord Jesus Christ;

Jud 1:18  How that they told you there should be mockers in the last time, who should walk after their own ungodly lusts.

Jud 1:19  These be they who separate themselves, sensual, having not the Spirit.

Jud 1:21  Keep yourselves in the love of God, looking for the mercy of our Lord Jesus Christ unto eternal life.


Jud 1:23 And others save with fear,   pulling them out of the fire; hating even the garment spotted by the flesh.

Jud 1:24  Now unto him that is able to keep you from falling, and to present you faultless before the presence of his glory with exceeding joy,

Jud 1:25  To the only wise God our Saviour, be glory and majesty, dominion and power, both now and ever. Amen.


save with fear


G5401
φόβος
phobos
fob'-os
From a primary φέβομαι phebomai (to be put in fear); alarm or fright: - be afraid, + exceedingly, fear, terror.

Many principles of Scripture are very misunderstood... such as the FEAR you propose above... as part of your message which is supposedly, the GOSPEL...

GOD is LOVE:  1 John 4:8

GOD is PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL is PEACE:  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

NO FEAR in LOVE:  1 John 4:18

NO PEACE in FEAR:  1 John 4:18

...willieH  :cloud9:

Well, i'll bet those who went through the soon wrath that came upon that generation understood.


To those that accepted that the wrath of God was a good thing and nothing to be feared,  and fell from grace; found out differently.

 

Quote from: Cardinal on April 29, 2009, 03:17:56 PMSometimes with the things of God you think, 'Am I losing my mind here or what?"

I've spent many hours, days, weeks, and months thinking that about various things, only to find out later that what I'd been thinking was Word of Knowledge, and/or Discerning of Spirits, and/or Word of Wisdom, and/or Interpretation of other tongues.  Nothing over the last few years has ever taken me by surprise, but I've spent an equal amount of time, or more in denial of what was staring me in the face.  Probably everything that wanders into within a certain radius of me passes in front of my X-ray vision IMMEDIATELY, but I don't yet have enough experience under my belt with this level of the gifts that I've been in for a while to not immediately start thinking that my mind totally made it up. 

I think that that's why when it's really mattered over the last 3 years, that that's why God's had me over into the 1Corinthians 12 kind of faith together with any other manifestation of the Holy Spirit in my life rather than just operating in the faith that comes by hearing and hearing by the Word of God.  Otherwise, I was just going to sit there thinking that I was at either end of the twin evils of judgmentalism or presumption, and that if I just stayed kinda quiet for a while that the moment would pass and nobody would ever have to know where my mind just went for a second there. :Sparkletooth:  I just described all of 2008 for me.  So, if anybody were to ever ask me, which is better -- gifts or fruit?  My answer is FRUIT!!!!!!  'cause as I've said before a few times, the fruit of the spirit will do absolutely everything that the gifts of the Spirit will do. 

But you'll be less startled and will have less to repent of if it was just the natural flowering of your own spiritual life rather than an Outpouring of the Holy Spirit that was being administered/loaded by Christ Jesus in His High Priestly ministry, but you were still the 5 year old with the machine gun in your hands with no idea that that puppy's about to dislocate your shoulder when you start shooting, if you've not grown strong enough yet.  I've been walking around for the better part of two years now thinking privately when something's happened through me, "I swear to God that that was not me. ROFLOL!!"  And the Lord's consistently answered, though with less regularity these days now that I'm starting to become accustomed to it, "No, that was Me.  Are you going to obey Me in this?"  And I just keep saying, "yes, Author/Pioneer of my faith.  Lead the Way and I'll lean on You to perfect/develop my faith to this level so that Your Holy Spirit is never grieved that you ever gambled on me.  If I say I'll never disappoint You, then I'm liable to deny You three times before the rooster crows like Peter did, but if You'll take my hand, We'll walk on this water Together!!"

What's been particularly cool for me is the realization of how relational God is.  I grew up around Pentecost, so I sorta always knew that about Him when it came to anything between us and Him.  But I've been learning over the course of this whole decade that when He's closing a door on a relationship, if you've been walking by faith, then the emotions really won't be there.  It won't be this big ol' weeping and gnashing of teeth if you're where you're supposed to be with Him when He's put His finger on a relationship and says "trust Me, this is poisoning you. Just let go!"  And you're suddenly one experience with the Bread and Cup away from not knowing them from Adam, as the old saying goes.  But any context where He's saying, [as your Mentor and Orchestrator of your destiny,] "now, LOVE!" and suddenly you can't help yourself, whether it's related to things new or old that He's bringing forth in His Kingdom around you.  You suddenly find yourself totally bananas about what He's totally bananas about, whether it's related to your calling, your job, your family, your pets, the noisy neighbors or the weird one, the cop down the street, the idiots on television, and/or the people God says to minister to.  If His Word is abiding in you and you're abiding in His Word, then nothing should ever be impossible to you.  Just plant the seed and it'll grow and you'll get there eventually.  Just as big or bigger than anybody else you've seen growing in their spirit!  I love watching His Written Word do the knitting it was sent forth to do.  My whole life is a product of His knitting work.

 :cloud9: Martin, I TOTALLY know what you're talking about in this thread. Exactly. Praise the Lord for His wondrous works among men.  :bowing:

HIS love is NOT an emotion, it's a SPIRIT, and when that Spirit has drug you thru enough processing that He can, He takes you captive to do what HE would, and you are helpless to do otherwise. It's both terrifying, frustrating, and glorious beyond words, all at the same time. But OMG, what the PRESENCE of the fruit is capable of doing WITHOUT A WORD.

The sons of God of Roman's 8 are being formed into warriors of LOVE. We think we know what that means, but we really have no idea until He arrives on the scene in your heart in the fullness of that, even for a second. God help me to make it to the end to be that permanent and functioning habitat of that glorious thing. Father, I give You praise. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on April 30, 2009, 04:53:14 PM:cloud9: Martin, I TOTALLY know what you're talking about in this thread. Exactly. Praise the Lord for His wondrous works among men.  :bowing:

If you can even possibly relate, sounds like you're the very one I needed to be talking to after I'd posted that prayer thread a couple of years ago that I've just included on the Testimony board a few hours ago.  'Cause things got a bit peculiar with me, for me, starting August 5th of that year.  The Lord, for want of a better way of putting it, pointed out a goal to me that evening and the following 4 months are a semi-blur, where I was acting on it with the speed of literally a subatomic particle.  If there were any Smallville fans here that have kept up with most of the episodes and seasons, it was like when Jor-el had released Clark Kent from his imprisonment in that Native American Cave with the sole goal of capturing the different parts of the Kryptonian crystal that were in different parts of the world, so that the Fortress of Solitude could be built.  And Clark wasn't 'there' at all.  It was only Kal-el pursuing it, including flying, when up to this point 'Clark' is still afraid of heights and isn't flying.  It was unquestionably me, but it was pure me, if that makes any sense: Father and Son. 

I was allowed to do some animal rights, relationship, and other types of rants [as far as approximating articles that I was sharing for a few weeks there on an animal rights website that was sorta the AR version of myspace] that were more sorta me during that time.  But beyond that, I was on my first big mission with the new demension that I'd yeiled to God with that prayer request I'd posted here.  I vaguely remember writing some poetry at the time, [i.e. just highlights of what I wrote,] and 'cause it wasn't any better than it was, although passionately meaningful from my perspective, I'm inclined to believe that that was totally my writing.  But everything else was a total chasing of my promised land and for the maiden voyage of that new demension of my having yielded to God, I didn't expect it to take the shape that it was going to take. 

It was like, when I grabbed that bigger segment of my time and my words with my faith on the prayer boards, it was like I grabbed a soaked sponge that I was able to squeeze more out of -- or like God was able to squeeze more out of me than He'd been able to previous to that, would probably be a better way of putting it.  That really taught me His heart in a special way, that He really does want us to have what would be dearest to us, in addition to the nations being taken captive to the obedience of Christ and all of their thoughts, and anything else of the Universal Restoration and the restoration of wholeness for all of humanity.  He used a very special situation to me to help with my training on this new level.  I don't plan on just letting that go with that prayer request until 2010, and then not trying to bite off more than that.  When He okays it, I want to requisition my words for the following entire decade now that half of this experience is under my belt and I am fairly certain that nothing else is going to come up that's going to make me whiney about needing to be locked up.

I want to see what else is out there for God to create in my life in that way.  And I'm believing God that I won't be one continuing, seemingly never ending bizzaro over that.  There's got to be as much of a balance with the gifts of the Spirit as there are with the fruit of the spirit.  Since they mirror one another perfectly, then ultimately it's about looking the most like Christ Jesus rather than this weird witch or prophet that's a hermit on a mountain somewhere.  I don't believe that that's God's intent.  That often winds up being what happens when just one or two gifts are emphasized together with just two or three of the fruit of the spirit.  When you slip into that, then you can't "make it work" without taking some bizzar extremes of fasting, perpetual isolation and prayer, etc. 'cause you're missing the fundamental of being the express image of the Son of God.  But when it comes to the financial level that I've been believing God for for at least 16 years, and maybe one or two other major, major goals with my faith and harvesting of God's Word, I'd love it if the bigger goals included that autopilot aspect to where I'd be trapped in this season of knowing exactly what I was supposed to be saying and it was totally Him in me on that particular subject, and then to just wake up one day wondering how it happened that I'd be surrounded by an entire economy to take care of all that needs to be taken care of with the faithfullness, postmillenial, UR, and Hosea 2:18 messages that I have.

My initial salvation, baptism with the Holy Spirit, and discovery of my callings in life had this feel/flavor to them of being effortless and then the biggest self doubt afterwards and agonizing emotions afterwards until I finally recognized the pattern and that the very pressure to feel that way was my indicator that I had received precisely what God wanted me to have.  I'd gone a few years without being sorely tempted like that.  I genuinely thought I was beyond ever feeling that way or going through that ever again.  But apparently, it'll [sometimes/rarely] accompany any really big thing that God's wanting to do in your life.  Charles Spurgeon is quoted by J. Oswald Sanders as having said:

Before any great achievement, some measure of depression is very usual....Such was my experience when I first became a pastor in London.  My success appauled me, and the thought of the career which seemed to open up so far from elating me, cast me into the lowest depth, out of which I uttered my miserere and found no room for a gloria in excelsis.  Who was I that I should continue to lead so great a multitude?  I would betake me to my village obscurity, or emigrate to America and find a solitary nest in the backwoods where I might be sufficient for the things that were demanded of me.  It was just then the curtain was rising on my lifework and I dreaded what it might reveal.  I hope I was not faithless, but I was timorous and filled with a sense of my own unfitness...This depression comes over me whenever the Lord is preparing a larger blessing for my ministry. -- end of quote.


And on another page of Spiritual Leadership by J. Oswald Sanders, there's this anecdote of Dr. F. B. Meyer:

Most people who knew Dr. F. B. Meyer would have no hesitation in writing him down as a convinced optimist, ever seeing the bright side of things, ever hopeful, ever vigorous, ever confident of the ultimate triumph of good over evil.  And they would have been right.  He was delightfully hopeful and inspiring.  But he was far too keen and thoughtful a man, too great a student of humanity, and in himself he was unmeasurably human not to be overcome now and again by the pessimistic views of life.  He occasionally went down into the very depths of human despair.  He had seen too often and too clearly the seamy side of life not to be sad and pessimistic now and then. -- end of quote.


Sometimes I think that we're too prone to think that the travail of the spirit and even of the Spirit is entered into willingly every time and with the right frame of the human mind to where we always necessarily know that we're entering into that volitionally by faith.  But if the faith is there that either you, or someone you care about, the Church, or all of mankind would be conformed to the image of Christ Jesus (Galatians 4:19), I don't think that labor pains are always polite, considerate of your wishes, and of when it's the best time and right state of mind for you.  When your spiritual water breaks, here we go!!  You can be down for the count and have already put your hero's costume on the hanger in the closet and if it's time for something you said by faith in God's Word and/or through His Spirit to start inching towards coming to pass, here comes the screaming doubling over that any Christian that hasn't experienced it yet is in for quite the pleasant(?) surprise that you can have to suddenly start pushing with your spirit and practically screaming this thing through in a more dynamic and ultimately more practical way than the passage of a natural human baby from a woman's system into the reality of being in her arms. 

When you see the end result of that kind of Hell for a loved one, and you've been through the fire vicariously in their behalf so that they'd eventually be able to soar with the eagles and the supermen of God's new creation, there's nothing like the miracle of that birthing process where your tears are literally turned into joy.  It's a totally selfless Hell, though when you're going through it, you're no less needing to be held, at least by the hand, as everything within you is screaming for Lazarus to come forth from that grave.  I believe that Charles Finney had someone that they simply called Father Nash that would go into the towns where Charles Finney was going to preach days ahead of Bro. Finney and he'd get two or three others in the town willing to pray like this, and they'd be found in their Hotel rooms on the floor in absolute horrible agony of the burning flames of Hell in their guts, travailing in the spirit.  And a few days later when Bro. Finney would come to preach, just about the whole town would turn to God, with approximately 80% of the converts remaining faithful to God the rest of their lives -- totally unheard of to students of past revivals.  And for someone who's never heard of this before, it's worth rereading the book of Joel [and what's often misinterpreted as depression in the Psalms and Job] in the Old Testament about.  The Apostles did it for over a week in the upper room before the power fell in Acts 2.  We know that that's what they did because of knowing that Scripture in Joel and that the results promised came on that blessed Day that burned as an oven and refiner's fire.

willieH: Hi  Z  :eek:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 06:17:54 AMMany principles of Scripture are very misunderstood... such as the FEAR you propose above... as part of your message which is supposedly, the GOSPEL...

GOD is LOVE:  1 John 4:8

GOD is PEACE: Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20

GOSPEL is PEACE:  Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15

NO FEAR in LOVE:  1 John 4:18

NO PEACE in FEAR:  1 John 4:18

...willieH  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on April 30, 2009, 06:31:51 AMWell, i'll bet those who went through the soon wrath that came upon that generation understood.

Sorry bro... I am not a "bettin' man"  :laughing7:  Your proposal upon which you wish to "bet" is speculation...

ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

I am presently in a battle with cancer... I do not consider this cumbersome, awful and painful suffering as some "precursor" to even worse things...  :mshock:  Where does it end Zeek?  Where is the PEACE in such things?  Where is the LOVE in such things?  Where is the GOOD NEWS in such things?   

I can tell you that whether I be released from the assault of cancer in THIS life, or in the my death which is to come, it is CERTAINLY an ENEMY of mine... and is COME AGAINST LIFE... and it is quite a bleak and negative vision to think that even worse is to come, when the message of CHRIST is "good news"...  :mnah:

However, ...far be it from me to seek to change your perspective OR belief... You are more than welcome to be "afraid" of GOD...  Personally, the "fear" I hold of Him is the one which HE DESIRES, that being RESPECT... and HONOR... and within such "fear" is found both, PEACE and LOVE...

FEAR ("PHOBOS"/afraid) has TORMENT within its makeup, and is therefore NOT a part of LOVE or PEACE... 2 things that GOD ...IS...

LIFE itself illustrates these things.  I am a parent of 3, grandparent of 10... and I can tell you that NONE of them are "afraid" of me... on the contrary... it has been (and continue to BE) the GOAL of my LOVE, to ASSURE these OBJECTS of my LOVE, that they shall find PEACE and SAFETY in my presence, ...NOT FEAR and DISDAIN because of that FEAR... :rolleye:

In the pursuit of SPIRITUALITY and TRUTH... we do best to recognize the aspects of the SPIRIT and that the FRUIT of the SPIRIT (that which is GLEANED and GROWS from spiritual immersion) [Gal 5:22] is LOVE, joy, PEACE, longsuffering, gentleness, faith, meekness, temperance... 

FEAR is not named amongst this "fruit" which are present and GROW, even in NATURAL [HUMAN] LOVE... let alone SPIRITUAL [GOD] LOVE.

These things LOGICALLY exemplify the approach in which the GOSPEL must be presented to those unfamiliar with SPIRITUAL matters...  NONE of these characterize, embody, or serve to paint a picture of FEAR... :mnah:

For with this type of approach, a person which knows nothing of SPIRITUAL matters, shall not be wary or reluctant, ...rather these elements cultivate ASSURANCE and GENTLY and MEEKLY invite the UNBELIEVER unto the TRUTH of WHO and WHAT that our FATHER YHVH ...IS...

Quote from: Zeek on April 30, 2009, 06:31:51 AMTo those that accepted that the wrath of God was a good thing and nothing to be feared,  and fell from grace; found out differently.

Again, though I hold respect for you as a student, and friend, ...I see your vision of FEAR and its proximity to GOD in the SPIRITUAL, as a bit, "near  sighted"...   :friendstu:  ...being distant, not clearly observed...

GOD places us upon the earth, and MOLDS us as HE sees fit... within that process is the "MARRING" of the pot (Done IN and BY, the hand of the POTTER)... [Jer 18:4]  and the POT (being molded) has no right to object to the process OR the reasons for that process, whether they be comfortable or uncomfortable...  :dontknow: [Rom 9:18-21]

Part of "His processing" includes His WRATH against that which HE CREATED (evil) and which He by FOREORDINATION, has subjected EACH of us to... that being EVIL and its experiential results... [Rom 11:32]

FEAR is an "item" disposed of in the LOF (which is NOW)... it is a FINITE entity, which has elimination as its destiny [Rev 21:4 -- 1 John 4:18]

In the "end", ...FEAR is NOT the "goal"... nor does it have a portion with the ETERNAL...

The "END" (which is the "BEGINNING") is devoid of things such as FEAR, for they are NOT found within PERFECT LOVE [1 John 4:18], which IS the ETERNAL home of ALL things, as YHVH IS, ALL in ALL...

peace brother...  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Quote from: CHB on April 30, 2009, 12:29:24 AM

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?


CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:43:12 PM
willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Quote from: CHB on April 30, 2009, 12:29:24 AM

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?


CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank the Lord!!! Am glad to hear you are ok.

CHB

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:39:47 PM

ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

Hi Willie, I appreciate your responses to me and have always enjoyed your posts, and your intense love for HIM that you reflect. 

I do not agree with your above statement regarding the "wrath of God", as God clearly has set aside the "righteous" who will never die.   I think the Noah story is a great picture of this. 

You quoted:

The wrath of God is against all ungodliness of those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness.




but


Psa 4:3  But  know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.


Psa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.


I believe these verses are worth meditating on:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

Joh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.



One last thing, in your last post to me, you said something to the effect of "you are more than welcome to be afraid of God",

i just wanted to let you know, that no where have i said that "I" was afraid of God. 

but I have posted these verses frequently

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Psa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

Psa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.



blessings



Z      eek

The wrath of God at the time Romans was written was "future", hence "treasurest" (to reserve) against the day of wrath.

Rom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

Rom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

Rom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

Rom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

Rom 2:10 But  glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Rom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:



1Jn 3:3  And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.


1Jn 3:6  Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.


1Jn 3:9  Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1Jn 3:14  We know that we have passed from death unto life, because we love the brethren. He that loveth not his brother abideth in death.


1Jn 3:23  And this is his commandment, that we should believe in the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, even as he gave us commandment.

1Jn 3:24  And he that keepeth his commandments abideth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he gave us.

1Jn 5:4  For whatsoever is begotten of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that hath overcome the world, even our faith.

Heb 11:1  Now faith is assurance of things hoped for, a conviction of things not seen.


1Pe 1:9  receiving the end of your faith, even the salvation of your souls.

 :cloud9: I think that's wonderful that He's moving in you like that, Martin. PTL. When one of us gets a little closer to the "finish line", it means He's moved the line up a little closer (to completion being a reality for all of us), too. Awesome.

And I totally believe that about Finney, Martin. The Lord showed me that very principle was why Paul wrote most of the NT canon, in that he also said, paraphrasing; I THANK GOD THAT I PRAY MORE THAN YE ALL IN TONGUES.

That's one of the reasons the enemy of our souls fights it so much, because lack thereof limits the harvest. When the Spirit comes thru in intercession, things are released out of the heavenly realm, ie. the OIL flows from the head down to the feet (earthly realm). Blessings...

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:43:12 PM
willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Quote from: CHB on April 30, 2009, 12:29:24 AM

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?
CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

:cloud9: PTL Willie!  :girlheart: Father, we give You praise for Willie....Blessings....

willieH: Hi Z  :eek:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 03:11:30 AM
The wrath of God at the time Romans was written was "future", hence "treasurest" (to reserve) against the day of wrath.

That is YOUR observance of it (and any other Scripture), and you are welcome to it bro... Natural eyes observe that which is ETERNAL (the WORD), and IMPOSE the parameters of TIME unto the Scriptures (future, past), which is FINITE... and thereby miss the ETERNAL applications of the Holy Scriptures... (present)

Might I preface this post by saying that if you do not pray to YHVH for understanding, before reading what I have to say... I can tell you that you will have little chance of understanding...  and you may well just think I am crazy and that I have flipped my lid...  :laughing7:

NOW, brother Z, is the "DAY of WRATH"... NOW is the acceptable TIME... NOW is the DAY of SALVATION...

ALL that takes place in the Creation of GOD, takes place in NOW...  All TIME, ...All DAYS, ...All EVENTS, ...All the WORK of GOD...

Gen 2:1-3 --- The SEVENTH DAY...

(1) has NO MORNING (beginning), neither does it have

(2) an EVENING (ending) as do the previous "6 days", for it is ETERNAL... and IN the SABBATH of GOD, do ALL THINGS find themselves immersed... FOREVER!

QuoteRom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

You (as do most) observe this verse as denoting the "future" because you are NATURALLY tied to TIME... (as am I)... And IMPOSE TIME upon the HOLY WORDS which are NOT BOUND by TIME,  ...but in the SPIRIT, we are relieved of that boundary as the SPIRIT leads...

The "DAY" of WRATH takes place as is noted in GENESIS bro... NOW... In the "DAY" of GOD...

When the "JUDGMENT" happens, do you picture it "happening" THEN" or "NOW"?  And even if you picture it "THEN", ..."THEN" is just part of "NOW"...

Here's how it goes:

Gen 2:4 ...these are the GENERATIONS of the Heavens and of the Earth, "when" they were created, ...IN THE DAY, that YHVH made the Earth and Heavens...

ALL creation of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING --- ANYONE and EVERYONE, takes place within the DAY of GOD... If it IS CREATED, it takes place in that "DAY"...

Let's look and see what is IN that "DAY"...

Gen 2:1  Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ...ALL... the host of them...

So the ENTIRE compliment of the HOST of the HEAVENS and the EARTH were FINISHED in 6 DAYS, and are found COMPLETE in the SEVENTH DAY... which is the DAY of GOD --- "His DAY"...

CHRIST claimed it... YHVH claimed it... because the SABBATH is the COMPLETION of TIME, and when TIME is COMPLETED, it as an entity, is no longer necessary... for it is FULFILLED, it is FINISHED...  When the game is over, do we keep playing the game? When we eat our supper, do we keep eating it?  When we come back from a trip, are we still on it?

NOW the "DAY":

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh ...DAY... God ...ENDED... His WORK... which He had made, and RESTED on the seventh DAY, from ...ALL... his WORK which He had MADE...

This verse notes that ALL of His WORK was completed and FINISHED... This includes the entire HISTORY of MAN (for ALL the GENERATIONS were within that "DAY"), as well as ALL the events within TIME that those "generations" manifested...   

Were you and I created? (at least as men?)  Then we are DONE in that "DAY"...

CHRIST said: "NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD"... [John 12:31]

Now if the JUDGMENT were at the "end of time", why would He say this Z?

If you analyze this verse... CHRIST is saying that NOW (not at the particular moment He was in) --- ALL of "NOW" is the PLACE and MOMENT of JUDGMENT...

NOW is the Lake of FIRE... THIS is where DEATH and the GRAVE are destroyed... as well as ALL unrighteousness...
NOW is where we find the ACCEPTED TIME, and SALVATION, and REDEMPTION... NOW is the JUDGMENT...

QuoteRom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

And He does! On a daily basis!  "You REAP what you SOW"... not  "You WILL REAP what you SOW"

If GOD were to say... "If you drink that poison, you WILL die"... does "will" mean, at the end of time?  Or do you think "will" means ...NOW?

QuoteRom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

More of the same in the presence of HIM who SEES ALL...  as we OBEY, we are BLESSED (we "reap what we sow" - blessings)... as we DISOBEY (we "reap what we sow" - cursings)

QuoteRom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

What man has not DONE EVIL Zeek?  Tribulation and anguish cannot be avoided.  We follow CHRIST in SUFFERING, for in SUFFERING are we made COMPLETE -- Heb 2:10

I have cancer in my body Zeek... don't pretend to tell me that TRIBULATION is not in my life... or ANGUISH...  I have no one to blame for its presence but myself... but the great JOY is that it can only have a short "VAPOR of a time" with me... For I am destined to RE-EMERGE in the ETERNAL whence I entered TIME, to the JOYFUL, YOUNG, HEALTHY and ETERNAL SON that I am in Father YHVH...

QuoteRom 2:10 But  glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Just, what I just said!

QuoteRom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The word ETERNAL is basically an INVALID word in any FINITE vocabulary for it cannot be truly comprehended... and it is not the meaning of this verse... this verse is speaking of NOW... 

HONOR and IMMORTALITY is in JESUS CHRIST... and as HE dwells and reveals Himself IN US... His IMMORTAL and HONORABLE LIFE abides IN US...

I've said enough for now...  :heat:

Peace beuntaya...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Cardinal on May 01, 2009, 04:42:59 AM

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:43:12 PM
willieH: Hi CHB!  :hithere:

Quote from: CHB on April 30, 2009, 12:29:24 AM

Amen Willie,

I have been wondering where you were and how you were doing?
CHB

Thanks for the concern...  :friendstu:

I'm doing pretty good.  Just got done with 2 months of Radiation therapy... (I live in Spokane & had to go to Seattle for the treatments)

I'll try to show my face around these parts a little more often!  :mblush:

peace...  :boyheart:

...willieH  :cloud9:

:cloud9: PTL Willie!  :girlheart: Father, we give You praise for Willie....Blessings....

And Father, we give You praise for Rebecca!!!   :boyheart:

Bro Willie, I'm not asking you to self-reveal/discuss private matters here.  But with this statement "I have cancer in my body Zeek... I have no one to blame for its presence but myself";  given what I understand your POVs (much of which I share) of God being in control (and fortunately for us that includes working all things according for good  :boogie:), is there any further elaboration you can make on this?  Again, without revealing anything inappropriately/unecessarily specific...thanks bro.

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 09:08:17 AM
Natural eyes observe that which is ETERNAL (the WORD), and IMPOSE the parameters of TIME unto the Scriptures (future, past), which is FINITE... and thereby miss the ETERNAL applications of the Holy Scriptures... (present)

Hi Willie,

Do you think that Paul, John, Peter  were preaching to the people your interpretation or even more, do you think those at that time who had the mind of Christ were hearing your interpretation?  or were they preaching things to occure in time, (the "natural/time") even though given the Spirit?

The scriptures are full of "future" tense verses.  Were all the spirit filled/mind of Christ deliverers of that message and the recipients of that message to interpret all those from your perspective? 

Your message/interpretation to me sounds nothing like the message of Paul etc, and I can not imagine the recipients of that message at that time, "hearing" your message.  I truly believe that they were in the "last days" and that there was a soon coming judgment upon apostate Israel; which I also believe happened, as documented by History. (I know, this is just natural thinking.  :)) 


Here is an example of how I think time was an important factor, and the recipients were excited to see this day occur (in time)

1Jn 3:2  Beloved, now are we children of God, and it is not yet made manifest what we shall be. We know that, if he shall be manifested, we shall be like him; for we shall see him even as he is.

According to what I think you are saying, the only way to see this verse manifest; is to leave the realm of time.  To physically die??


I think that Paul had the mind of Christ (spiritual) and yet still understood the realm of time in which I believe is where judgment and reward occured. 

I enjoy your reading your perspective, and don't necessarily judge it as wrong; I just don't see how one can see your interpretation as the only "spiritual" message and all else is "natural"; (which is what I think you are saying) .  I personally believe that Paul etc were not trying to teach "your interpretation", as they knew that they were to experience the change of ages (in the realm of time). 

I personally think that the reason there are so many interpretations now, is that because a change in ages has occurred and we now are just doing what humans do. 

I beleive what was fulfilled in that "time", can be applied with varied interpretation based on our own individual belief/thinking and personality and revelation;   

But then again, all this truly is my opinion.  :)

For me, I think the scriptures can NOW be applied inwardly as a whole, or what many describe as "spiritual", because I don't think a change of ages is occuring now, but rather is an awakening to the age we already live in. 

blessings brother, and thank you for your patience with me; and I will continue to seek HIM for "spiritual eyes". 

Zeek

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 09:08:17 AM
willieH: Hi Z  :eek:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 03:11:30 AM
The wrath of God at the time Romans was written was "future", hence "treasurest" (to reserve) against the day of wrath.

That is YOUR observance of it (and any other Scripture), and you are welcome to it bro... Natural eyes observe that which is ETERNAL (the WORD), and IMPOSE the parameters of TIME unto the Scriptures (future, past), which is FINITE... and thereby miss the ETERNAL applications of the Holy Scriptures... (present)

Might I preface this post by saying that if you do not pray to YHVH for understanding, before reading what I have to say... I can tell you that you will have little chance of understanding...  and you may well just think I am crazy and that I have flipped my lid...  :laughing7:

NOW, brother Z, is the "DAY of WRATH"... NOW is the acceptable TIME... NOW is the DAY of SALVATION...

ALL that takes place in the Creation of GOD, takes place in NOW...  All TIME, ...All DAYS, ...All EVENTS, ...All the WORK of GOD...

Gen 2:1-3 --- The SEVENTH DAY...

(1) has NO MORNING (beginning), neither does it have

(2) an EVENING (ending) as do the previous "6 days", for it is ETERNAL... and IN the SABBATH of GOD, do ALL THINGS find themselves immersed... FOREVER!

QuoteRom 2:5  But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

You (as do most) observe this verse as denoting the "future" because you are NATURALLY tied to TIME... (as am I)... And IMPOSE TIME upon the HOLY WORDS which are NOT BOUND by TIME,  ...but in the SPIRIT, we are relieved of that boundary as the SPIRIT leads...

The "DAY" of WRATH takes place as is noted in GENESIS bro... NOW... In the "DAY" of GOD...

When the "JUDGMENT" happens, do you picture it "happening" THEN" or "NOW"?  And even if you picture it "THEN", ..."THEN" is just part of "NOW"...

Here's how it goes:

Gen 2:4 ...these are the GENERATIONS of the Heavens and of the Earth, "when" they were created, ...IN THE DAY, that YHVH made the Earth and Heavens...

ALL creation of ANYTHING and EVERYTHING --- ANYONE and EVERYONE, takes place within the DAY of GOD... If it IS CREATED, it takes place in that "DAY"...

Let's look and see what is IN that "DAY"...

Gen 2:1  Thus the Heavens and the Earth were ...FINISHED... and ...ALL... the host of them...

So the ENTIRE compliment of the HOST of the HEAVENS and the EARTH were FINISHED in 6 DAYS, and are found COMPLETE in the SEVENTH DAY... which is the DAY of GOD --- "His DAY"...

CHRIST claimed it... YHVH claimed it... because the SABBATH is the COMPLETION of TIME, and when TIME is COMPLETED, it as an entity, is no longer necessary... for it is FULFILLED, it is FINISHED...  When the game is over, do we keep playing the game? When we eat our supper, do we keep eating it?  When we come back from a trip, are we still on it?

NOW the "DAY":

Gen 2:2  And on the seventh ...DAY... God ...ENDED... His WORK... which He had made, and RESTED on the seventh DAY, from ...ALL... his WORK which He had MADE...

This verse notes that ALL of His WORK was completed and FINISHED... This includes the entire HISTORY of MAN (for ALL the GENERATIONS were within that "DAY"), as well as ALL the events within TIME that those "generations" manifested...   

Were you and I created? (at least as men?)  Then we are DONE in that "DAY"...

CHRIST said: "NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD"... [John 12:31]

Now if the JUDGMENT were at the "end of time", why would He say this Z?

If you analyze this verse... CHRIST is saying that NOW (not at the particular moment He was in) --- ALL of "NOW" is the PLACE and MOMENT of JUDGMENT...

NOW is the Lake of FIRE... THIS is where DEATH and the GRAVE are destroyed... as well as ALL unrighteousness...
NOW is where we find the ACCEPTED TIME, and SALVATION, and REDEMPTION... NOW is the JUDGMENT...

QuoteRom 2:6  Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

And He does! On a daily basis!  "You REAP what you SOW"... not  "You WILL REAP what you SOW"

If GOD were to say... "If you drink that poison, you WILL die"... does "will" mean, at the end of time?  Or do you think "will" means ...NOW?

QuoteRom 2:8  But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

More of the same in the presence of HIM who SEES ALL...  as we OBEY, we are BLESSED (we "reap what we sow" - blessings)... as we DISOBEY (we "reap what we sow" - cursings)

QuoteRom 2:9  Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

What man has not DONE EVIL Zeek?  Tribulation and anguish cannot be avoided.  We follow CHRIST in SUFFERING, for in SUFFERING are we made COMPLETE -- Heb 2:10

I have cancer in my body Zeek... don't pretend to tell me that TRIBULATION is not in my life... or ANGUISH...  I have no one to blame for its presence but myself... but the great JOY is that it can only have a short "VAPOR of a time" with me... For I am destined to RE-EMERGE in the ETERNAL whence I entered TIME, to the JOYFUL, YOUNG, HEALTHY and ETERNAL SON that I am in Father YHVH...

QuoteRom 2:10 But  glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

Just, what I just said!

QuoteRom 2:7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

The word ETERNAL is basically an INVALID word in any FINITE vocabulary for it cannot be truly comprehended... and it is not the meaning of this verse... this verse is speaking of NOW... 

HONOR and IMMORTALITY is in JESUS CHRIST... and as HE dwells and reveals Himself IN US... His IMMORTAL and HONORABLE LIFE abides IN US...

I've said enough for now...  :heat:

Peace beuntaya...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_king:

:cloud9: Willie, you have put into words better than I have EVER been able to, the revelation about what the 7th day is and how it applies to us in a spiritual sense, that was dropped into my spirit many years ago. This is going into my "Willie" folder.... :thumbsup:

 :cloud9: Now having said that above, I want to say Zeek, I understand what you're saying too. I just want to point something out. What happened in 70 ad, even though it happened in the time after the NT covenant was brought, was a fulfillment under the principle that these things that happened to them (the natural Jews) were done for our (NT "spiritual" or circumcised of heart "Jews") understanding.

In other words, spiritually speaking, it was another (and very severe) type and shadow, even though in literal time, the NT covenant had already come. He said not one stone would be left standing on another, and that was fulfilled as the Romans were looking for the gold of the temple, that had seeped down between the cracks, having been melted in the fire. Blessings....

Quote from: Cardinal on May 01, 2009, 04:04:41 PM
:cloud9: Now having said that above, I want to say Zeek, I understand what you're saying too. I just want to point something out. What happened in 70 ad, even though it happened in the time after the NT covenant was brought, was a fulfillment under the principle that these things that happened to them (the natural Jews) were done for our (NT "spiritual" or circumcised of heart "Jews") understanding.

In other words, spiritually speaking, it was another (and very severe) type and shadow, even though in literal time, the NT covenant had already come. He said not one stone would be left standing on another, and that was fulfilled as the Romans were looking for the gold of the temple, that had seeped down between the cracks, having been melted in the fire. Blessings....

Thanks Cardinal for attempting to understand what i'm saying. 

I think we all are on similar pages in so many ways.  Nathan has done a great job in previous posts of echoing where I have been led in regards to first century fulfillment. 

And I agree to0 with (I think anyway, so hard to communicate by writing sometimes) with what yu are saying Cardinal; and I have no problem with what was "played" out in the first century as a "shadow" of what is going on in us "inwardly".  I believe we all will  "experience" eschatology inwardly, or as some like to call "spiritually".  I don't like the idea or conveying of "if one doesn't see it that way, that they are not seeing with "spiritual" eyes".  As I have tried to point out, imo; Paul had spiritual eyes, and yet did not apply what was happening then all inwardly.  He really was warning about two groups of people, one which would go through destruction, and one which would be saved.   

What i find fascinating, is views like Willie's, which likely are filled with much truth; but yet is not in line with what happened during the first century or in line with (imo) Paul's views at the time.  I am trying to see how one comes to these inward applications, in light of the message preached in the first century.  I try to figure out "what changed" that one can now apply all these scriptures inwardly. 

For me, first century fulfillment has bridged the gap.  It's as if they were "creating unity", and we are "realizing unity".   (don't know if that makes sense).  or (if any of my writing makes sense)

anyway, thanks to all who put up with my endless scripture quoting, and my inability to fully explain myself. 

blessings
Z

 :cloud9: I understand what you're saying Zeek. I think the reason it's so hard to put into words is because we've had the substance of both covenants continuing on all around us as well as in us, at the same time, from the beginning. And there's no way it couldn't be that way, by virtue of the fact that the natural is subject to the both of them, and we're in the natural realm. So both are working together to bring us into completion in Him.

The Lord showed me Paul was an "overlapper". What God did with him actually overlapped two "ages". He was a man born out of season. I believe he was shown all mysteries pertaining to life and Christ raising up in a people that would overcome death, but also that he would not be able to appropriate them while he was alive in shoe leather, because he was born in another "age", in the wrong "season".

In a sense, we're the same, because we have one foot in the old, and one foot in the new, waiting for the move of God that will bring that other foot firmly into the new, to bring in the fullness of the new heaven and bring about our new earth. Blessings....

willieH: Hi brother J... :hithere:

Quote from: jabcat on May 01, 2009, 09:20:39 AM
Bro Willie, I'm not asking you to self-reveal/discuss private matters here.  But with this statement "I have cancer in my body Zeek... I have no one to blame for its presence but myself";  given what I understand your POVs (much of which I share) of God being in control (and fortunately for us that includes working all things according for good  :boogie:), is there any further elaboration you can make on this?  Again, without revealing anything inappropriately/unecessarily specific...thanks bro.

The clay is molded in the hand of the Potter... and has no right to call the Potter "on the carpet" for His moldings... Rom 9:20

In knowing that my belief is that GOD is in control of ALL THINGS... I still am accountable for my own behavior... which for much of my life in many areas has been LESS than acceptable when compared to GOD's COMMANDS...

GOD "finds fault" for a reason and that reason is:

I "reap what I sow"... even though the "sowing and reaping" are foreordained, does not excuse me from accountability, for said accountability finds AGREEMENT with the COMMANDS as correct when compared to what I "did"...  :dontknow:

Hope that answers your question bro...  :cloud9:

willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:39:47 PM
ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMHi Willie, I appreciate your responses to me and have always enjoyed your posts, and your intense love for HIM that you reflect. 

I do not agree with your above statement regarding the "wrath of God", as God clearly has set aside the "righteous" who will never die.    I think the Noah story is a great picture of this.

You are more than welcome to "not agree" brother...

Clearly the "Never die" thing, is a MISOBSERVATION, for

(1) ...it is APPOINTED for [all] men once to DIE  Heb 9:27 ...and
(2) ...IN ADAM ...ALL DIE... 1 Cor 15:22

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:39:47 PMThe wrath of God is against all ungodliness of those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMbut

Psa 4:3  But  know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

This does not mean that those "called" will not have participated in Unrighteousness and Ungodliness...

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMPsa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Again, coming up short... the ...WAY... of the Ungodly shall perish..

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMI believe these verses are worth meditating on:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I agree.  Any verse in the WORD is worth "meditating on", bro..

Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

This is pictured in the Garden... ADAM and EVE were ALWAYS NAKED... but their "NAKEDNESS" did not APPEAR to them... until they had TRANSGRESSED the COMMAND of GOD...

They were immediately IN SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and therefore made "aprons" to cover themselves...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMJoh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This only means that upon resurrection, LIFE in CHRIST is found... the LIFE of CHRIST (the WORD) ...NEVER dies... but the flesh in which the WORD resides... DIES...

This was found to be so, even in the LIFE of our SAVIOR... we are not greater than HE in ANY WAY.

CHRIST died bro... and we all shall follow Him in death (so much for the "never" thing)... however, some are RAISED ...IN HIM (and the ETERNAL state of the WORD)... others in the SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and the FINITE state in which we entered the grave...

This is what the WIPING of the "tears" is all about Zeek!  Those raised in SHAME as did Adam & Eve, ...immediately find themselves NAKED...

But, as did Adam & Eve... they found a nuturing Father in GOD, who made clothing to COVER them... and the wiping of the TEARS is the PUTTING on of CHRIST...

A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AM1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I shall now ask you Zeek... WHAT SIN is not to be prayed for?  What SIN is NOT unto death?  :Chinscratch:  Until you can answer these questions (and maybe you can)... meditating on this verse remains a meditation in mystery.  :dunno:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AM]One last thing, in your last post to me, you said something to the effect of "you are more than welcome to be afraid of God",

i just wanted to let you know, that no where have i said that "I" was afraid of God.

If you FEAR (phobos) Him... you are AFRAID of Him... He does NOT desire your FEAR!

You promote FEAR (phobos) Zeek... FEAR is not part or portion to LOVE, PEACE or GOD...  :dontknow:  ...Which I have already demonstrated...

One of the things GOD detests and which IS a qualification for the LOF and the 2nd DEATH, ...is FEAR... Rev 21:8

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMbut I have posted these verses frequently

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Posting of verses frequently is nice, but does not afford understanding OF THEM...

The WICKED "way" of man, is that which GOD detests... not the one IN the wickedness... He brings WRATH against the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

OF MEN  Rom 1:18 -- not the MEN themselves... Against the WAY of the WICKED, ...not against those whom HE CONCLUDED as such Rom 11:32

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMPsa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

I drink of that cup now, Zeek... (Cancer)... and when you are DUE, so will you... CANCER ...IS... a portion of the FIRE bro...

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMPsa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

And GLAD we are, that he LOVES righteousness... for IN righteousness and IN His IMPARTIALITY is found HEALING for ALL...

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMblessings

Z      eek

Blessings to you as well dear brother...  :cloud9:

Yes, I thought you may be talking about sowing and reaping, but didn't want to be too presumptious/judgmental...even had that in my post but took it out.  Got'cha, thanks.

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
willieH: Hi Zeek... :hithere:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:39:47 PM
ALL will come under the WRATH of GOD for the WRATH is come against ALL Ungodliness, and Unrighteousness OF MEN... ALL MEN fall into this category (having within them SIN which encompasses both)... Rom 1:18

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMHi Willie, I appreciate your responses to me and have always enjoyed your posts, and your intense love for HIM that you reflect. 

I do not agree with your above statement regarding the "wrath of God", as God clearly has set aside the "righteous" who will never die.    I think the Noah story is a great picture of this.

You are more than welcome to "not agree" brother...

Clearly the "Never die" thing, is a MISOBSERVATION, for

(1) ...it is APPOINTED for [all] men once to DIE  Heb 9:27 ...and
(2) ...IN ADAM ...ALL DIE... 1 Cor 15:22

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on April 30, 2009, 10:39:47 PMThe wrath of God is against all ungodliness of those "who hold the truth in unrighteousness.

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMbut

Psa 4:3  But  know that the LORD hath set apart him that is godly for himself: the LORD will hear when I call unto him.

This does not mean that those "called" will not have participated in Unrighteousness and Ungodliness...

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMPsa 1:6  For the LORD knoweth the way of the righteous: but the way of the ungodly shall perish.

Again, coming up short... the ...WAY... of the Ungodly shall perish..

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMI believe these verses are worth meditating on:

Joh 8:24  I said therefore unto you, that ye shall die in your sins: for if ye believe not that I am he, ye shall die in your sins.

I agree.  Any verse in the WORD is worth "meditating on", bro..

Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

This is pictured in the Garden... ADAM and EVE were ALWAYS NAKED... but their "NAKEDNESS" did not APPEAR to them... until they had TRANSGRESSED the COMMAND of GOD...

They were immediately IN SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and therefore made "aprons" to cover themselves...  :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMJoh 11:26  And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

This only means that upon resurrection, LIFE in CHRIST is found... the LIFE of CHRIST (the WORD) ...NEVER dies... but the flesh in which the WORD resides... DIES...

This was found to be so, even in the LIFE of our SAVIOR... we are not greater than HE in ANY WAY.

CHRIST died bro... and we all shall follow Him in death (so much for the "never" thing)... however, some are RAISED ...IN HIM (and the ETERNAL state of the WORD)... others in the SHAME of their NAKEDNESS... and the FINITE state in which we entered the grave...

This is what the WIPING of the "tears" is all about Zeek!  Those raised in SHAME as did Adam & Eve, ...immediately find themselves NAKED...

But, as did Adam & Eve... they found a nuturing Father in GOD, who made clothing to COVER them... and the wiping of the TEARS is the PUTTING on of CHRIST...

A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AM1Jn 5:16  If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.

I shall now ask you Zeek... WHAT SIN is not to be prayed for?  What SIN is NOT unto death?  :Chinscratch:  Until you can answer these questions (and maybe you can)... meditating on this verse remains a meditation in mystery.  :dunno:

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AM]One last thing, in your last post to me, you said something to the effect of "you are more than welcome to be afraid of God",

i just wanted to let you know, that no where have i said that "I" was afraid of God.

If you FEAR (phobos) Him... you are AFRAID of Him... He does NOT desire your FEAR!

You promote FEAR (phobos) Zeek... FEAR is not part or portion to LOVE, PEACE or GOD...  :dontknow:  ...Which I have already demonstrated...

One of the things GOD detests and which IS a qualification for the LOF and the 2nd DEATH, ...is FEAR... Rev 21:8

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMbut I have posted these verses frequently

Psa 11:5  The LORD trieth the righteous: but the wicked and him that loveth violence his soul hateth.

Posting of verses frequently is nice, but does not afford understanding OF THEM...

The WICKED "way" of man, is that which GOD detests... not the one IN the wickedness... He brings WRATH against the UNGODLINESS and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS...

OF MEN  Rom 1:18 -- not the MEN themselves... Against the WAY of the WICKED, ...not against those whom HE CONCLUDED as such Rom 11:32

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMPsa 11:6  Upon the wicked he shall rain snares, fire and brimstone, and an horrible tempest: this shall be the portion of their cup.

I drink of that cup now, Zeek... (Cancer)... and when you are DUE, so will you... CANCER ...IS... a portion of the FIRE bro...

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMPsa 11:7  For the righteous LORD loveth righteousness; his countenance doth behold the upright.

And GLAD we are, that he LOVES righteousness... for IN righteousness and IN His IMPARTIALITY is found HEALING for ALL...

Quote from: Zeek on May 01, 2009, 02:05:48 AMblessings

Z      eek

Blessings to you as well dear brother...  :cloud9:

...willieH  :icon_flower:

It is appointed for man ONCE to die, not twice (second death/LOF). 

but there are those who die twice:

Jud 1:12  These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

those who never die, are those who don't go through second death.  They LIVE in HIM NOW.  They are not twice dead.  The wrath of God, imo; is the second death, twice dead. 


So if I get what you are saying Willie, you are in the lake of fire now, and will die in your sins, as evidence by your cancer??  And your cancer is to shame you?? 

and, i'm not sure I fully know why I think this is relevant yet; but this verse has meaning imo in relation to this topic too

Num 20:11  And Moses lifted up his hand, and smote the rock with his rod twice: and water came forth abundantly, and the congregation drank, and their cattle.


Moses, representing law??  which was the minsitration of death??  struck twice, possibly because those who AFTER having known the truth, revert back to law, so "second death"???


Heb 10:26  For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more a sacrifice for sins,

Heb 10:27  but a certain fearful  expectation of judgment, and a fierceness of fire which shall devour the adversaries.


Heb 12:18  For ye  are not  come unto a mount that might be touched, and that burned with fire, and unto blackness, and darkness, and tempest,

Heb 12:19  and the sound of a trumpet, and the voice of words; which voice they that heard entreated that no word more should be spoken unto them;

Heb 12:20  for they could not endure that which was enjoined, If even a beast touch the mountain, it shall be stoned;

Heb 12:21  and so fearful was the appearance, that Moses said, I exceedingly fear and quake:

Heb 12:22  but ye are come unto mount Zion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to innumerable hosts of angels,

Heb 12:23  to the general assembly and church of the firstborn who are enrolled in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

Heb 12:24  and to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling that speaketh better than that of Abel.

Heb 12:25  See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not when they refused him that warned them on earth, much more shall not we escape who turn away  from him that warneth from heaven:

One other thing on "struck rock twice"

Who is the Rock?  Christ

what is the definition of struck?

H5221
נכה
nâkâh
naw-kaw'
A primitive root; to strike (lightly or severely, literally or figuratively): -  beat, cast forth, clap, give [wounds], X go forward, X indeed, kill, make [slaughter], murderer, punish, slaughter, slay (-er, -ing), smite (-r, -ing), strike, be stricken, (give) stripes, X surely, wound.


Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame.

"Cancer is a preventable disease; eat from the fruit of the Spirit, not of the flesh."

Don't forget the veggies, like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts while leaving the animal fat behind.
And let us not leave out the onion, garlic, or cranberries, blueberries, and grapes.

Habits and attitude make a difference.

"Live by what you trust, not by what you fear."

peacemaker

In my opinion, the lake of fire/second death is not the trials of our faith (which imo, could be things like cancer, illness etc.)

In the Noah story, Noah spent years "working" to build the ark.  He had FAITH that what God had promised would "come about (in time)".  He stayed faithful to the END.  Receiving the end of his Faith (at a later time) the salvation of his soul.  During the "time" he "worked" on the ark, he was persecuted, mocked, rejected by those who were stuck in their "old" belief systems.  They, like those who killed Jesus; were not living by faith.  Paul, John, James etc also lived by faith, and encouraged others to stay faithful to the end, despite rejection, trials, mockery, beatings, etc. from those who rejected the cross.  They "worked" out there salvation with fear and trembling.  They had their faith tried PRIOR to the coming judgment, just as Noah had his faith tried prior to the coming judgment (the rain storm).

Then (in time) came the judgment.  Noah was saved.  He "rose" above the waters.  Just like then came Christ's judgment, and he "rose" above the "old system" (praise God).  Then came the judgment upon the rest of the body of Christ (Paul, John, and those faithful up to the judgment day), and they too were saved, and arose above the destruction. 

God appears to teach and demonstrate "in time".  This first, then that. 

Was Noah's faith tried anymore once he arose above the waters?  Was Christs faith tried after he arose from the dead??

If our faith is still being tried today, then imo; based on Gods teaching using time; we are not in the lake of fire.  We are working out our salvation still, and the day of judgment is yet to come. 





Willie asked me re: sin unto death and sin not unto death.  Here is my views.  First, in I John, when John talks of a sin not unto death, he is talking to "brothers".   ie:  If any man see his brother (I John 5:16)...

A brother is one who has been transferred from death (first death ie: in adam all die) to life (in Christ) via faith in the risen Christ.  At the time of writing in I John, huge persecution of the saints/christians was happening.  There was huge pressure to go back to the literal temple and resume the sacrifices, ritual worship, the "old mindset".  The temple was still standing and the "old covenant" was still being practiced.  The trial of one's faith at times was probably very intense, and it was the "easy" way out to go back to the law.  If one were to do this, this would be "denying Jesus come in the flesh.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


It is making a mockery of the cross.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Th


This is the sin unto death.  Death being the second death, the lake of fire, the destruction that leaves one shamed. 


Now, as humans we all sin, I occasionally lust, think selfish thots etc.  but for those who are made alive in Him, and continue to trust in the risen Christ; who continue to hope, purfify themselves and are righteous despite their "sin".  They have sinned a sin NOT unto death.  They are not to be thrown into the fire; as they continue to LIVE in HIM.   These are the "whoever believes on HIM, will never die".  Believest thou this?? 

But the one's who don't continue in belief, and fall back, despite the spirit of grace, will "perish" (second death).  I John 3:16. 

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

The word clearly states differently. Maybe one's view of "death" needs to be considered.  I believe this is "second death".

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

Do you see the lake of fire as the resurrection to condemnation??

Joh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM


A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

I would love to hear it, and any other music you have; as i've heard u are quite the musician.  How do I hear this?

As for "sin unto death" or, "...not unto death:"  The Law prescribes the death sentence for certain transgressions; others, not so.

willieH: Hi brother ...Z  :eek:

Quote from: Zeek on May 02, 2009, 01:37:12 AM
It is appointed for man ONCE to die, not twice (second death/LOF).

but there are those who die twice:

Jud 1:12  These are they who are hidden rocks in your love-feasts when they feast with you, shepherds that without fear feed themselves; clouds without water, carried along by winds; autumn leaves without fruit, twice dead, plucked up by the roots;

One weak and misobserved witness you present to support your FEAR teachings...

This is not speaking of other than yourself and the FLESH with which you do battle in the Spirit...  Failing to see the WAR as named by PAUL -- Rom 7

GOD is able to (and DOES) make of the SAME LUMP --- one vessel unto HONOR, and another unto DISHONOR... Rom 9:21

The description of the above is speaking of the LOVE-FEAST which is CHRIST in ALL... and, ...the ADVERSITY within EVERY MAN... which are the elements of that ADVERSITY --- clouds without water, and carried along by winds, etc...

GOD is IMPARTIAL (I've found 10 verses - want a list?)... and HE is the creator of ALL that you are... Rom 9:20 ...do ones which find themselves in GOOD circumstances COMPLAIN of those circumstances Zeek?  Please... :rolleye:  Of course they DO NOT... it is the NATURAL Man complaining of his circumstances...

I could well complain of CANCER now couldn't I?   However... it has a PURPOSE, for I am found in the Creative hand of the ALL-MIGHTY (which means all "might" that IS, is found in HIM)... And part of the HAND of the POTTER is seen to "MAR" the Clay while IN His HAND at ALL TIMES... Jer 18:4   :dontknow:

Quote from: Zeek on May 02, 2009, 01:37:12 AMthose who never die, are those who don't go through second death.  They LIVE in HIM NOW.  They are not twice dead.  The wrath of God, imo; is the second death, twice dead.

:Yeahright:  (1) Those who "NEVER DIE", dont go "through" the 2nd death?  :laugh:  That means that if I were to SHOOT you in the head, you would -- ahem -- "NEVER DIE"?  :eek:  Z :eek: --- GET REAL!

ALL DIE Zeek, and are APPOINTED to do so... Gen 2:19 -- 1 Cor 15:22  as the SCRIPTURES plainly note, ...you are just in denial, due to traditional Orthodox teachings which theologically and erroneously note otherwise...

(2)  If you are not of the "UNGODLY" (the target of GOD's Wrath -- Rom 1:18), then CHRIST therefore, did NOT DIE for you Zeek... Rom 5:6

(3)  The WRATH of GOD is against ALL UNGODLINESS -- Rom 1:18 and UNRIGHTEOUSNESS [sin] -- 1 John 5:17 ...ALL have SINNED (including you Zeek) -- Rom 3:23  YOU are therefore, the target of the WRATH of GOD, for you are both Ungodly and Unrighteous... (as are ALL MEN)

You are welcome to turn a blind eye away from what IS plainly noted... 

Show me where the SCRIPTURE says that ANYONE shall avoid the SECOND DEATH Zeek ---  :dontknow:  Thanks (but please don't expect me to hold my breath while you search!)

The WORD disagrees with you... The WORD says some will not be HURT of the SECOND DEATH... it does NOT SAY that ANY shall AVOID IT... I await your proof that YOU shall "NEVER DIE", as well as that YOU shall AVOID the SECOND DEATH...  :dontknow:  Thanks bro...  :ty: :friendstu:

Quote from: Zeek on May 02, 2009, 01:37:12 AMSo if I get what you are saying Willie, you are in the lake of fire now,

YES... as are YOU, brother Zeek...  :winkgrin:

Quote from: Zeek on May 02, 2009, 01:37:12 AMand will die in your sins, as evidence by your cancer??  And your cancer is to shame you??

NO... I am IN CHRIST which is HIS CHOOSING -- Acts 2:47... and am part of the 1st Resurrection, being a BELIEVER while IN the FLESH of SIN, which (flesh which is part of me) SHALL DIE... 

At the RESURRECTION when ...ALL... that sleep IN the GRAVES shall rise ... I will be found in CHRIST... 1 Cor 15:22 -- John 5:28  The (ones=all) noted as "occupants" of the GRAVES are noted in TWO distinct groups... one of which are those that have "done GOOD"  :dontknow:

ALL DIE Zeek... you shall find this out sooner or later, when you get over your Orthodox denial...  Otherwise, Scriptures such as John 5:28 -- Heb 9:27 -- 1 Cor 15:22 are bearing false witness (which they are NOT)... and the "never die thing" is a misunderstanding which you (falsely) hopefully embrace, thinking you shall avoid that DEATH to which YOU are APPOINTED...

Let's get one thing straight brother Z... the CANCER in my body, is not "MY CANCER"... it is THAT which comes AGAINST ME... I make no claim of OWNERSHIP of it...

The CANCER that comes against me, is the "REAPING" of what has been "SOWN" in my life... And IS SERVING the PURPOSE of GOD, which shall forever serve to display, that such things DO NOT belong within that which is PERFECT, being STRONG and CONVINCING elements of IMPERFECTION...

CANCER is not my SHAME... it is the Wrath which is come against the portions of LIFE that I have SOWN, which were done outside the SERVICE of the TRUTH... My SELFISHNESS, burning in the FIRE of this life... In the body of THIS DEATH... Rom 7:24

It represents HARM to my LIFE, contrary TO IT... It TEMPORARILY represents SORROW, where ETERNAL JOY belongs... etc.

SHAME is being FOUND in SIN -- in the RESURRECTION, Zeek... Rev 3:18

Many shall (according to the WILL and INTENTION of GOD), Be FOUND dying IN their SIN ...unrepentent -- unforgiven... For GOD chose not to author REPENTENCE in them -- Rom 2:4, and HE chose not to DRAW them John 6:44, and HE chose not to AUTHOR faith in them to believe Heb 12:2... But all that is to come for ALL, before the completion of the LAST DAY...

REPENTENCE is part of that which brings forth FORGIVENESS... and REPENTENCE is ORCHESTRATED and AUTHORED ...In man, By GOD...  Rom 2:4 -- John 6:44

GOD does the "drawing" [dragging] to CHRIST, according to HIS WILL and PURPOSE -- Eph 1:11

If YOU have "repented" Zeek... it was NOT "your idea" to do so... on the contrary... the DARKNESS (desparate and wicked heart of man - Jer 17:9) concieves of NO such "plan"...

I don't claim to have all the answers Zeek... but ONE thing I am SURE of... and that is that the GOSPEL is a message which is COMPLETELY about PEACE and LOVE... which is DEVOID of such negativities as FEAR and TORMENT...

GOD ...and... the GOSPEL are about PEACE:

GOD -- Rom 15:33 -- Heb 13:20 -- 1 cor 14:33 -- Phil 4:9 -- 1 Thess 5:23

GOSPEL -- Rom 10:15 -- Eph 6:15 -- Col 1:20

Think what you will...  :dontknow:  It really doesn't matter to me what you think...  :dontknow:   Furthermore, ...it is not my endeavor to convince you... but I post these thoughts contrary to your false message of FEAR, ...that others might not be deterred by that negative message... and hear the TRUTH, that GOD LOVES the WORLD, and that they need not be AFRAID of the one who LOVES THEM the MOST...

There is NO PEACE within FEAR, nor is there PEACE in your proposals of TORMENTS beyond this life OF even more TORMENTS...  :rolleye:

When (and/or IF) you arrive at my age (63)... and you are made by arriving there, to observe this lifetime in retrospect... you will likely find a different perspective than you might presently hold...  Having been through the "FIRE" of many "losses", which have been CONSUMED by that "FIRE"...

The "FIRE" of DEATH given unto your life, until you are SICK up to your neck of it... having taken away one by one, all those you LOVE... and the "FIRE" which consumes -- your youth, your health, your career, your usefulness, the list is almost "endless"... but which is NOT devoid of the HOPE (expectation) of the GREAT PROMISES of GOD!  Which shall RENEW and REVEAL the ETERNAL GLORY, which shall SHINE GLORIOUSLY in the FACE of these "FIRE losses" (read JOB to get an idea)

Part of our "Creation" which is ETERNALLY aimed at PERFECTION (completion)... is SUFFERING, for even CHRIST, the Captain of our Salvation was made PERFECT (complete) THROUGH SUFFERING... Heb 2:10

Peace brother Z...  :grouppray:

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM

There has not been, nor will there EVER BE, ...a man that NEVER DIES... righteous or unrighteous...  :dontknow:

QuoteThe word clearly states differently. Maybe one's view of "death" needs to be considered.  I believe this is "second death".

It is the correct observation (inspired of GOD) of the WORD which reveals the TRUTH... An athiest can read the WORD, and derive NOTHING SPIRITUAL from it...

Obviously ALL MEN DIE... so the word "NEVER" -- which by definition means "not at ANY TIME"... is misobserved as meaning that you shall NOT DIE at ANY TIME... for ALL DIE...

Again, you are welcome to believe what you wish to believe...  :dontknow:

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
Appearing in SHAME of NAKEDNESS is what happens at Resurrection... Rev 3:18 Those who DIE in CHRIST, are CLOTHED by HIM... and the SHAME of "their NAKEDNESS" does not APPEAR...

QuoteDo you see the lake of fire as the resurrection to condemnation??

(1) The REVEALING [revelation] of JESUS CHRIST is NOT a chronological event... nor is the "book of REVELATION" written according to the demands of CHRONOLOGY imposed of FINITE observance...

IOW... The FINITE and NATURAL man observes:  chap 20 follows chap 19... The REVEALING of CHRIST who is an ETERNAL entity without CHRONOLOGY, cannot by definition be revealed CHRONOLOGICALLY... so the events that you observe in the "revelation" are not "one -- after -- another"... the END ...IS... the BEGINNING bro...  :teaching:

CHRIST is BOTH, simultaneously... yet cannot be defined by either!  :mshock:

(2)  I do not see the LOF as resurrection at all... I see it as a place where DEATH, dies -- In which CHRIST accomplished what He was sent to do...

...I see it (the "revelation) where the GRAVE was tossed into the LOF (the GRAVE is a fact of THIS LIFE)...
...I see it as those who are NOT written in the book of LIFE are cast all DIE, which removes them from (the book) LIFE...
...I see the books being open are our LIVES lived before Him
...I see it as them being written in the book of LIFE of the Lamb, for the Lamb died for ALL
...I see the JUDGMENT before the GWT is NOW... not to come "in time" for TIME is nothing but NOW...

and much more...

(3)  CHRIST was sent NOT to condemn -- John 3:17... and when presented the "opportunities" TO CONDEMN... He did NOT... It is also said of Him that He CHANGES NOT... so if in fact it was His practice NOT to CONDEMN, then to CONDEMN would represent a CHANGE in Him...

Whatever you percieve the LOF to be... it cannot be an entity that CONDEMNS... for the LAKE of FIRE is part and portion to the REVEALING of JESUS CHRIST, who CONDEMNS NOT...

Quote from: Zeek on May 02, 2009, 05:14:31 PMJoh 5:29  And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

You would do well to look up the definition of the original WORD which was translated DAMNATION in this verse, Zeek... It is JUDGMENT... and is so translated as JUDGMENT many times in the NT...

JUDGMENT is NOT a bad thing bro... for it is that which REMOVES unrighteousness, and ungodliness by its revelation:

Isaiah 26:9  ...for when Thy JUDGMENTS are IN the Earth, the INHABITANTS of the WORLD will ...LEARN RIGHTEOUSNESS... (not be tormented in "real" FIRE)

Quote from: willieH on May 01, 2009, 11:18:09 PM
A few years ago, I wrote a song about this... it's called "TEARS are not a bad thing"... you should hear it...  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on May 02, 2009, 05:14:31 PMI would love to hear it, and any other music you have; as i've heard u are quite the musician.  How do I hear this?

PM me with an address you can recieve mail, and I will send you some of our music... (my wife and I)...  :cloud9:

Quote from: willieH on May 03, 2009, 12:26:41 AM
Furthermore, ...it is not my endeavor to convince you... but I post these thoughts contrary to your false message of FEAR, ...that others might not be deterred by that negative message... and hear the TRUTH, that GOD LOVES the WORLD, and that they need not be AFRAID of the one who LOVES THEM the MOST...

There is NO PEACE within FEAR, nor is there PEACE in your proposals of TORMENTS beyond this life OF even more TORMENTS...  :rolleye:

When (and/or IF) you arrive at my age (63)... and you are made by arriving there, to observe this lifetime in retrospect... you will likely find a different perspective than you might presently hold...  Having been through the "FIRE" of many "losses", which have been CONSUMED by that "FIRE"...

The "FIRE" of DEATH given unto your life, until you are SICK up to your neck of it... having taken away one by one, all those you LOVE... and the "FIRE" which consumes -- your youth, your health, your career, your usefulness, the list is almost "endless"... but which is NOT devoid of the HOPE (expectation) of the GREAT PROMISES of GOD!  Which shall RENEW and REVEAL the ETERNAL GLORY, which shall SHINE GLORIOUSLY in the FACE of these "FIRE losses" (read JOB to get an idea)

Part of our "Creation" which is ETERNALLY aimed at PERFECTION (completion)... is SUFFERING, for even CHRIST, the Captain of our Salvation was made PERFECT (complete) THROUGH SUFFERING... Heb 2:10

Peace brother Z...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank you Willie.... :HeartThrob:
Your post really helped me today.
I was getting super sucked into a lot of fear for some reason.  :dontknow:
I stayed up all night last night....  :gsad:
I tried to sleep and just kept getting back up pacing around.
Then a noisy mockingbird outside my window would not stop singing.
They do that sometimes, at night.
iy iy iy.

Anyway, again...
Thank you.
You really helped my heart and mind today.
love you.
Thank you.
(( hugs ))

"(1) Those who "NEVER DIE", dont go "through" the 2nd death? (zeek statement)   That means that if I were to SHOOT you in the head, you would -- ahem -- "NEVER DIE"?" GET REAL! (willie h statement)



this statement is why if we continue discussing between each other; that we will be at odds with each other in relation to this topic, as you spiritually perceive the "second death" as "physical death".  

I am amazed that u spiritualize so much but then revert to a physical/literal event (in time) as the second death.  What we perceive isn't always true. 

I don't believe physical death has anything to do with first death or second death.  At that, i'll stop my conversation with you; as I am very "aware" of when my "ego" wants to step in and make this my best effort to "be right".  


I appreciate your views but disagree at this time with your ideas of "second death".


Z

Quote from: sparrow on May 03, 2009, 01:55:18 AM
I stayed up all night last night....  :gsad:
I tried to sleep and just kept getting back up pacing around.
Then a noisy mockingbird outside my window would not stop singing.
They do that sometimes, at night.
iy iy iy.

I had something similar.  More than likely what you were hearing was a Nightingale.  They are sooooo loud it's at least partly clear why the word "gale" is in their name.  A Mockingbird has maybe a dozen, or thirteen, no more than fifteen "themes" it acquires in about six weeks time early in its life.  It goes through these about 35 to 45 min in an hour, but not merely repeating them.  It is always creating variations on these themes.  The Nightingale repeats phrases several times, 2 to 5 and...my memory is sketchy, I better stop...just have earplugs on hand.  That's what I do.  There's little hope, except in extreme exhaustion, to get to sleep when these creature are exhibiting their nature that those who don't have to put up with them rave about.  They do have one of the most extensive and beautiful songs of any "flier."  Earplugs!

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

I asked you several questions you AVOID... for they do not "fit into" your theology... to acknowledge them, would necessitate change... but you do not wish to do so, so you threaten below to dismiss me... Please... :rolleye:

Quote from: willieH"(1) Those who "NEVER DIE", dont go "through" the 2nd death? (zeek statement)   That means that if I were to SHOOT you in the head, you would -- ahem -- "NEVER DIE"?"

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AMand in this statement is why we, if continue; will always continue to be at odds with each other in relation to this topic, as you spiritually perceive the "second death" as "physical death".

FIRST ---  You continue to avoid the "never die" issue... If it is as you believe, that "believers in CHRIST shall "NEVER DIE"... WHO are the "DEAD in CHRIST" 1 Thess 5:17, Zeek?

SECOND --- The 2nd DEATH is the DEATH which follows the 1st DEATH... so what, pray-tell is the 1st DEATH Zeek?  :dontknow:

The DEATH that ...WE die... and IS "appointed" ...is the one which FILLS the GRAVEYARDS, Zeek!  For it is FROM the GRAVES that ALL shall "hear His voice"... John 5:28 --  :dontknow:

CHRIST DIED the 2nd DEATH (of the FLESH), to redeem us from the FIRST DEATH into which we were BORN... For WE were concieved by SINFUL HUMAN acts... Ps 51:5

CHRIST however was NOT CONCIEVED by SINFUL human acts... rather HE was CONCIEVED by a DIVINE act... Matt 1:20

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AMI am amazed that u spiritualize so much but then revert to a physical/literal event (in time) as the second death.

Be specific... such incomplete and undocumented generalizations do nothing to prove your points... :rolleye:

When something is REVEALED brother, it is already THERE... When you go to an unveiling at an ART gallery, and they REVEAL it to the audience... does it "appear out of nowhere" Zeek?  Or was the painting already THERE?

The REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST, is the awakening of that which has ALWAYS been present in each one...  The Scriptures note that we are to AWAKEN from SLEEP... 1 Cor 15:34 -- Eph 5:14  What SLEEP Zeek?  Paul alludes this "SLEEP" to DEATH, yet he is speaking to LIVING human beings...

The  great "impairment" to REVELATION, is observing the PHYSICAL as SPIRITUAL and the SPIRITUAL as PHYSICAL... and only the discernment of the WORD, as led by the Holy Spirit, can bring an Ear to Hear or an Eye to see...

The SECOND DEATH is the process of the ELIMINATION of the NATURAL man (which is IN the FLESH)...  For this MORTAL (being "able" to DIE being corruptible) shall put on IMMORTALITY (an "inability" to DIE being incorruptible)... 1 Cor 15:53-54  ...which "SWALLOWS" up ALL DEATH...

This is ACCOMPLISHED by the process into which ALL DEATH, the GRAVE, and ALL men are CAST... (this life) --- the LOF... in which all, through suffering, gain the KNOWLEDGE...

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AMI don't believe physical death has anything to do with first death or second death.  At that, i'll stop my conversation with you; as I am very "aware" of when my "ego" wants to step in and make this my best effort to "be right".

What a cop-out bro!  This is your subliminal way of dismissing my opposition of you...

It is not about who is "right" or "wrong"... it is about REVELATION... either we are REVEALED or we are VEILED...

DEATH is DEATH... whether it is in the FLESH or in the SPIRIT, it is the ABSENCE of LIFE...

CHRIST even noted (physicall) LIVING MEN, as "DEAD"... What is the FIRST death Zeek? 

If LIVING (natural) men are noted as DEAD, then they are BORN -- "DEAD"...  and it is their destiny, BECAUSE of the state of DEATH they are in... to pursue their NATURAL way which is SINFUL and of the FLESH... For SIN emerges from the satifaction of the FLESH -- James 1:14 ...and THAT pursuit ends in DEATH of the FLESH... and it is because we begin "DEAD" in the SPIRIT...

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AMI appreciate your views but disagree at this time with your ideas of "second death".

Z

That's fine... and as I previously stated, you are more than welcome to disagree...  :cloud9:

Willie, I have answered your questions regarding "never die", just not in line with your view.  And yes, I am copping out at this point; as I will not go down the emotional roller coaster that will result if I keep going.  Please do not respond to me again on this thread.  Thank you. 

Z

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 04:33:49 AM
Willie, I have answered your questions regarding "never die", just not in line with your view.  And yes, I am copping out at this point; as I will not go down the emotional roller coaster that will result if I keep going.  Please do not respond to me again on this thread.  Thank you. 
Z

Hey Zeek,

Don't be so hard on yourself or WillieH!  You are experiencing exactly what you need! You have someone actually willing to challenge your beliefs! This is not a curse but blessing! It forces you to actually look deeply into not only what you believe but what you have been told!  The real question you should be asking is... Who has scripture to back up their beliefs and who is speaking what they have been told by others. Now is your time to shine with the truth or re-evaluate what you have been told!   :2c:

Don't copp out!  :thumbsup:

Paul

Quote from: Pierac on May 03, 2009, 05:43:11 AM

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 04:33:49 AM
Willie, I have answered your questions regarding "never die", just not in line with your view.  And yes, I am copping out at this point; as I will not go down the emotional roller coaster that will result if I keep going.  Please do not respond to me again on this thread.  Thank you. 
Z

Hey Zeek,

Don't be so hard on yourself or WillieH!  You are experiencing exactly what you need! You have someone actually willing to challenge your beliefs! This is not a curse but blessing! It forces you to actually look deeply into not only what you believe but what you have been told!  The real question you should be asking is... Who has scripture to back up their beliefs and who is speaking what they have been told by others. Now is your time to shine with the truth or re-evaluate what you have been told!   :2c:

Don't copp out!  :thumbsup:

Paul

I appreciate your post.   It's not that i mind someone challenging my beliefs, and I definitely embrace change in my beliefs.  And I enjoy hearing other's beliefs.  It's the presentation style of Willie that I am very aware of and how I react to it.  I've been triggered in the past by Willie's presentation style to others and to me, and I do not want to go down that road, as I try not to get sucked in emotionally.  And I am not requesting Willie change for me, I just am setting a boundary that is my cut off point.    For me, keeping an awareness of what I'm feeling, and not "becoming" what I am feeling is important.  If I continue, I soon will likely become my emotions/feelings.  make any sense?? 

Quote from: willieH on May 03, 2009, 03:27:26 AM

FIRST ---  You continue to avoid the "never die" issue... If it is as you believe, that "believers in CHRIST shall "NEVER DIE"... WHO are the "DEAD in CHRIST" 1 Thess 5:17, Zeek?

SECOND --- The 2nd DEATH is the DEATH which follows the 1st DEATH... so what, pray-tell is the 1st DEATH Zeek?  :dontknow:

The DEATH that ...WE die... and IS "appointed" ...is the one which FILLS the GRAVEYARDS, Zeek!  For it is FROM the GRAVES that ALL shall "hear His voice"... John 5:28 --  :dontknow:

...willieH  :thumbsup:

We all need to change our framework of the Scriptures understanding.
The Scriptures are saying things from our physical birth to physical death,
not afterlife.

1. First

Believers in Christ, if they are really born again Christians, will never die.

The dead in Christ in 1Thess 4:17 is the man whose old man is died
on the cross with Jesus Christ, and resurrected as new man who will never die.

Also, the dead of 1Thess 4:17 are shown in the following verse
[John 11:25]
Jesus said to her, "I am the resurrection and the life.
He who believes in me  will live, even though he dies;

The man who dies in Christ Jesus is the man mentioned in 1Thess 4:17.
This also means that the death of our sinful old man on the cross with Jesus (Rom 5:6-7),
which eliminates sins, death, hades, everything.
And this is the second death.

[Rom 5:6-7]
6 For we know that our old self was crucified with him so that
the body of sin might be done away with,
that we should no longer be slaves to sin--
7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin.

2. Second Death

Second death is the death of death, as someone said.
So the birth as sinful man is first death,
second death is the death of that sinful man on the cross.
So second death is born-again. 

3. Grave

This is also referring to spiritual death.
Time will come when the dead, sinful men, will hear the voice of living Christ.
(Here I see not many have ears to hear)
When he hears Him, he will be invited to death on the cross, the second death,
and will be resurrected with Christ.
All these things are to happen in this lifetime,
unless otherwise Jesus had died in vain.

[John 5:28]
"Do not be amazed at this,
for a time is coming when all who are in their graves will hear his voice

All above deaths are spiritual.
So, somehow WilleH is mixing that is spiritual with physical some parts.

God bless.

I think these verses are examples of first death:

Rom 7:5 For when we were in the flesh, the motions of sins, which were by the law, did work in our members to bring forth fruit unto death.

2Co 3:7 But if the ministration of death, written and engraven in stones, was glorious, so that the children of Israel could not steadfastly behold the face of Moses for the glory of his countenance; which glory was to be done away:

Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin entered into the world, and death by sin; and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned:

Rom 5:14 Nevertheless death reigned from Adam to Moses, even over them that had not sinned after the similitude of Adam's transgression, who is the figure of him that was to come.


I think Adam's banishment from the garden is a good example of first death. 


I see it as related to being under law, covenental, which in Hebrews was described as soon passing away. 

Heb 8:13  In that he saith, A new covenant, he hath made the first old. Now that which decayeth and waxeth old is ready to vanish away.

Power of sin is the law

The wages of sin is death.  (first death imo)



So, if I understand you correctly on your thots on second death (70 sevens); you see it as "dying to the old man" the death of "first death".  If that is true, then why wouldn't we be hurt by it?  Wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the second death, if it is the death of old man?

So, in the Noah story,  would you say that the "people" who died", were similtude/shadow to represent "our old man", and the "Noah" that lived was the "new creation" within each individual   (Christ in you)?? 

And that what happened between the cross and end of the the writing of the new testament (literally) was a simultude/shadow for death of the old man, and rising of the new within each individual?? 

In other words, there may have been really two sets of people, (ie: "Ishmaels and Isaacs" per Galatians 4) and Paul and gang may have really been persecuted by Ishmaels, and there was really a trial of their faith at the hands of these "evil men", and the "evil" were destined for wrath, and the "righteous" were destined for life/reward.   etc

but all that was just a shadow of how we are to apply it inward??  death to the old in each of us, and life in the new??


as i've stated before, I see this interpretation and it's validity, and agree with it. 

I am interessted in how people make that "leap" from what literally happened back then and apply it to "all inward" now. 

For me, the way that it makes sense is through first centruy fulfilled prophecy.  In other words, the literal was fulfilled, and now we can look at the entire story, and it's fulfillment and apply it all inward, in a "spiritual" way.   The whole bible as a parable to represent our life NOW.   Dying to old man, living in the new.  Being transformed by change of thots, throwing old thot patterns of death into the fire, and arise and walk in the new.

But, from my perspective; if one doesn't see a "change" in ages as having occurred; and we are still in the same age as what was going on back then, it is hard for me to take the "inward" application; because imo; it requires throwing out a lot of scripture, such as the "fear" one's i quoted. 


blessings

z

   

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 03:53:39 PM

So, if I understand you correctly on your thots on second death (70 sevens); you see it as "dying to the old man" the death of "first death".  If that is true, then why wouldn't we be hurt by it?  Wouldn't it be a good thing to be hurt by the second death, if it is the death of old man?

So, in the Noah story,  would you say that the "people" who died", were similtude/shadow to represent "our old man", and the "Noah" that lived was the "new creation" within each individual   (Christ in you)?? 

And that what happened between the cross and end of the the writing of the new testament (literally) was a simultude/shadow for death of the old man, and rising of the new within each individual?? 

   

1. Second Death

Yes, the second death is good thing to have.

[Rev 2:11]
He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.
He who overcomes will not be hurt at all by the second death.

[Rev 20:6]
Blessed and holy are those who have part in the first resurrection.
The second death has no power over them, but they will be priests of God
and of Christ and will reign with him for a thousand years.

"Who overcomes" and "who have part in the first resurrection" are same persons.
They are they whose old men died on the cross with Jesus.
(This is individual experience of a man by meeting Jesus in his life.)
These people were already being hurt by the second death (the death of old man on the cross),
so to them there will be no more second death.
In this sense, the Bible says they will not be hurt by the second death.

2. Noah

I will explain as I see it convenient.
Noah vs People died.

Noah was saved by the ark that he built according to God commandment.
The ark represents Jesus Christ, the Saviour.
"Building ark" means that Noah met Jesus Christ and by Christ his sin was cleansed and forgiven.
When completely forgiven, the ark (Christ in him) is completed.

[Gal 4:19]
My dear children, for whom I am again in the pains of childbirth until Christ is formed in you,

While building the ark (forming Christ in Him),
Noah's unrighteousness and ungodliness (represented by people died) are judged and separated from him.
This is the process of his old man dying on the cross with Jesus.
And this was Noah's second death.

Due to and with Christ (Ark) in Noah, Noah was saved going through the death tunnel alive.
This is the picture how we are saved from the death, the wage of sin.

3.  After cross to end of NT

I am not sure whether I understand you right, but,
This represents the life of the born again.
I would call it epistles stage of our faith, whereby as a born again man
we really love our neighbors as ourselves for the rest of our lives.

4.  How about me here?

We also should meet Jesus individually now and go through the same process
to remove ungodliness and unrighteousness in us by Jesus.
This process is the LoF, in other words.
We have to go through this process in order to be saved.

God bless.

willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

As you might expect bro... I find disagreement with your observation...   :mpardon:

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AM
Willie asked me re: sin unto death and sin not unto death.  Here is my views.  First, in I John, when John talks of a sin not unto death, he is talking to "brothers".   ie:  If any man see his brother (I John 5:16)...

A brother is one who has been transferred from death (first death ie: in adam all die) to life (in Christ) via faith in the risen Christ.  At the time of writing in I John, huge persecution of the saints/christians was happening.  There was huge pressure to go back to the literal temple and resume the sacrifices, ritual worship, the "old mindset".  The temple was still standing and the "old covenant" was still being practiced.  The trial of one's faith at times was probably very intense, and it was the "easy" way out to go back to the law.  If one were to do this, this would be "denying Jesus come in the flesh.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It is making a mockery of the cross.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Th


This is the sin unto death.  Death being the second death, the lake of fire, the destruction that leaves one shamed.

Might I begin by saying that I do agree this was a well thought out answer bro...  :nod: ...but it does have several problems...  :sigh:

(1)  So what of those which have made no such "mockery" Zeek? (known the truth, then fallen from it)  What of those who never heard of CHRIST?  They are exempt (in your view) from the "2nd death=LOF?  After all, they could not "FALL" from a place they have never been!

(2)  "THIS SIN" you outline as that of the Jews (brethren which were converted Hebrews) which have "confessed" that CHRIST is come in the flesh, then "mock" this confession by returning to an observance of the Law is the "Sin unto Death" which "death" (YOU SAY) is the 2nd Death which "leaves one shamed"...

Did not the Apostle PETER do this Zeek?  And was he not reprimanded for it by PAUL? (Gal 2)  Do you thereby sentence the Apostle PETER to the LOF?

Are you in essence saying that ONLY JEWS will participate in the LOF... Which is clearly misrepresentative of the texts which mention the LOF in the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST...

Above, you also subliminally include in this GENERALIZATION, the "huge pressure" upon ("brethren") which were/are GENTILE converts (which would be including us IN THIS DAY if the LOF is applied to us) ...which had NO "old mindset" concerning the "LAW, ritual sacrifices, literal temple", etc...  :dontknow:

(3)  This is your "theological" answer which IGNORES the "qualifying" elements for which ANY given human being is IMMERSED in the LOF, ...they being:  the FEARFUL, UNBELIEVING, MURDERERS, WHOREMONGERS, SORCERERS, IDOLATORS and ALL LIARS...  ALL human beings "qualify" for the LOF brother Zeek... ALL!

(4)  This "SIN unto DEATH" which you note as the 2nd DEATH --- DISINCLUDES the HUGE balance of humanity from involvement with the LOF, which during its course, has not had a relationship with the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity... thereby as you see it,  they are not subject to its (LOF) "effects", which omits the purpose (of the LOF) which is to eliminate aspects within SINFUL humanity that are undesireable and unacceptable in the HOLY and ETERNAL realm...  :dontknow:

(5)  This line of thinking also IGNORES the FACT that there is NOTHING in the texts which mention the SYMBOLIC "term" LOF... that allude to the premise that ANY shall AVOID it...  :mnah:

Which texts only STATE that some will not be "HURT" of IT... Why would it even suggest that some would not be "hurt" of it, if these would not be experiencing it at all?   :Whistle:

LOGIC suggests that because it does state that some will not be HURT of it, ...they shall go through that "2nd DEATH", but that "2nd death" will not avail "hurt" concerning them... (btw, the word "hurt" in Rev 2:11 means "to do wrong" in moral, physical or social applications)

Please provide Scriptural substanciation that ANYONE shall avoid the 2nd Death... thanks!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AMNow, as humans we all sin, I occasionally lust, think selfish thots etc.  but for those who are made alive in Him, and continue to trust in the risen Christ; who continue to hope, purfify themselves and are righteous despite their "sin".  They have sinned a sin NOT unto death.  They are not to be thrown into the fire; as they continue to LIVE in HIM.   These are the "whoever believes on HIM, will never die".  Believest thou this?? 

But the one's who don't continue in belief, and fall back, despite the spirit of grace, will "perish" (second death).  I John 3:16.

Again... much like the selective theology of many ET believers which conveniently DISINCLUDE themselves from being "called on the carpet" (but readily appoint others to it)... this viewpoint (IMO) is just another of that "theological variety"...  :sigh:

Above, (correct me if I misunderstand you) ...it appears that you make this "continuing in belief" as a WORK which MEN of themselves, perform... usurping the glory of CHRIST in that suggestion... 

We do not "overcome" as a result of OUR effort... CHRIST is He that "keeps us from falling" -- Jude 24

In this observation, you are found excusing "lust" or "selfish thoughts"... and promptly "handing out" the DEATH SIN to those who are "too weak" to stand of themselves concerning the "integrity" of the GOSPEL...  Please!  :thumbdown:

This is how I see it:

FIRST --- GOD is completely and PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL... which notes that:

SECOND --- It is HE who authors, FAITH (Heb 12:2) which leads to REPENTENCE (Rom 2:4) and,

THIRD --- That one "continues" is not due to one's own efforts, rather it is due to "CHRIST's efforts" IN that one, which KEEPS he/she from falling -- Jude 24... which further means that:

FOURTH --- If God keeps ONE from "falling" and not another, in order to maintain His claimed (and Scripturally often repeated) IMPARTIALITY  (Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)...

This ELECTION must needs be according to HIS PURPOSE that some "shall FALL" and that some "shall not FALL" (elect -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:11)...

For as I have noted, we are not able, nor are we prone -- (Jer 17:9) -- OF OURSELVES to accomplish this task... only HE can do this IN us!

MANY shall make the claims of HIS WORK, as their own: 

Matt 7:22  MANY will say to Me in that DAY, Lord Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name DONE many wonderful WORKS?

Claiming HIS WORKING as their own ...IS... the INIQUITY they are "workers of"...   :sigh:  Matt 7:23

peace bro...  :thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on May 04, 2009, 04:04:00 AM
willieH: Hi ...Z  :eek:

As you might expect bro... I find disagreement with your observation...   :mpardon:

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AM
Willie asked me re: sin unto death and sin not unto death.  Here is my views.  First, in I John, when John talks of a sin not unto death, he is talking to "brothers".   ie:  If any man see his brother (I John 5:16)...

A brother is one who has been transferred from death (first death ie: in adam all die) to life (in Christ) via faith in the risen Christ.  At the time of writing in I John, huge persecution of the saints/christians was happening.  There was huge pressure to go back to the literal temple and resume the sacrifices, ritual worship, the "old mindset".  The temple was still standing and the "old covenant" was still being practiced.  The trial of one's faith at times was probably very intense, and it was the "easy" way out to go back to the law.  If one were to do this, this would be "denying Jesus come in the flesh.

1Jn 4:3  And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.

It is making a mockery of the cross.

Heb 6:4  For it is impossible for those who were once enlightened, and have tasted of the heavenly gift, and were made partakers of the Holy Ghost,

Heb 6:5  And have tasted the good word of God, and the powers of the world to come,

Heb 6:6  If they shall fall away, to renew them again unto repentance; seeing they crucify to themselves the Son of God afresh, and put him to an open shame. Th


This is the sin unto death.  Death being the second death, the lake of fire, the destruction that leaves one shamed.

Might I begin by saying that I do agree this was a well thought out answer bro...  :nod: ...but it does have several problems...  :sigh:

(1)  So what of those which have made no such "mockery" Zeek? (known the truth, then fallen from it)  What of those who never heard of CHRIST?  They are exempt (in your view) from the "2nd death=LOF?  After all, they could not "FALL" from a place they have never been!

(2)  "THIS SIN" you outline as that of the Jews (brethren which were converted Hebrews) which have "confessed" that CHRIST is come in the flesh, then "mock" this confession by returning to an observance of the Law is the "Sin unto Death" which "death" (YOU SAY) is the 2nd Death which "leaves one shamed"...

Did not the Apostle PETER do this Zeek?  And was he not reprimanded for it by PAUL? (Gal 2)  Do you thereby sentence the Apostle PETER to the LOF?

Are you in essence saying that ONLY JEWS will participate in the LOF... Which is clearly misrepresentative of the texts which mention the LOF in the Revelation of JESUS CHRIST...

Above, you also subliminally include in this GENERALIZATION, the "huge pressure" upon ("brethren") which were/are GENTILE converts (which would be including us IN THIS DAY if the LOF is applied to us) ...which had NO "old mindset" concerning the "LAW, ritual sacrifices, literal temple", etc...  :dontknow:

(3)  This is your "theological" answer which IGNORES the "qualifying" elements for which ANY given human being is IMMERSED in the LOF, ...they being:  the FEARFUL, UNBELIEVING, MURDERERS, WHOREMONGERS, SORCERERS, IDOLATORS and ALL LIARS...  ALL human beings "qualify" for the LOF brother Zeek... ALL!

(4)  This "SIN unto DEATH" which you note as the 2nd DEATH --- DISINCLUDES the HUGE balance of humanity from involvement with the LOF, which during its course, has not had a relationship with the teachings of either Judaism or Christianity... thereby as you see it,  they are not subject to its (LOF) "effects", which omits the purpose (of the LOF) which is to eliminate aspects within SINFUL humanity that are undesireable and unacceptable in the HOLY and ETERNAL realm...  :dontknow:

(5)  This line of thinking also IGNORES the FACT that there is NOTHING in the texts which mention the SYMBOLIC "term" LOF... that allude to the premise that ANY shall AVOID it...  :mnah:

Which texts only STATE that some will not be "HURT" of IT... Why would it even suggest that some would not be "hurt" of it, if these would not be experiencing it at all?   :Whistle:

LOGIC suggests that because it does state that some will not be HURT of it, ...they shall go through that "2nd DEATH", but that "2nd death" will not avail "hurt" concerning them... (btw, the word "hurt" in Rev 2:11 means "to do wrong" in moral, physical or social applications)

Please provide Scriptural substanciation that ANYONE shall avoid the 2nd Death... thanks!  :cloud9:

Quote from: Zeek on May 03, 2009, 01:56:34 AMNow, as humans we all sin, I occasionally lust, think selfish thots etc.  but for those who are made alive in Him, and continue to trust in the risen Christ; who continue to hope, purfify themselves and are righteous despite their "sin".  They have sinned a sin NOT unto death.  They are not to be thrown into the fire; as they continue to LIVE in HIM.   These are the "whoever believes on HIM, will never die".  Believest thou this?? 

But the one's who don't continue in belief, and fall back, despite the spirit of grace, will "perish" (second death).  I John 3:16.

Again... much like the selective theology of many ET believers which conveniently DISINCLUDE themselves from being "called on the carpet" (but readily appoint others to it)... this viewpoint (IMO) is just another of that "theological variety"...  :sigh:

Above, (correct me if I misunderstand you) ...it appears that you make this "continuing in belief" as a WORK which MEN of themselves, perform... usurping the glory of CHRIST in that suggestion... 

We do not "overcome" as a result of OUR effort... CHRIST is He that "keeps us from falling" -- Jude 24

In this observation, you are found excusing "lust" or "selfish thoughts"... and promptly "handing out" the DEATH SIN to those who are "too weak" to stand of themselves concerning the "integrity" of the GOSPEL...  Please!  :thumbdown:

This is how I see it:

FIRST --- GOD is completely and PERFECTLY IMPARTIAL... which notes that:

SECOND --- It is HE who authors, FAITH (Heb 12:2) which leads to REPENTENCE (Rom 2:4) and,

THIRD --- That one "continues" is not due to one's own efforts, rather it is due to "CHRIST's efforts" IN that one, which KEEPS he/she from falling -- Jude 24... which further means that:

FOURTH --- If God keeps ONE from "falling" and not another, in order to maintain His claimed (and Scripturally often repeated) IMPARTIALITY  (Acts 10:34 -- Job 34:19 -- Rom 2:11 - Gal 2:6 -- Eph 6:9 -- Mark 12:14 -- 2 Sam 14:14 -- 2 Chron 19:7 -- Prov 28:21 -- Col 3:25)...

This ELECTION must needs be according to HIS PURPOSE that some "shall FALL" and that some "shall not FALL" (elect -- Eph 2:10 -- Rom 9:11)...

For as I have noted, we are not able, nor are we prone -- (Jer 17:9) -- OF OURSELVES to accomplish this task... only HE can do this IN us!

MANY shall make the claims of HIS WORK, as their own: 

Matt 7:22  MANY will say to Me in that DAY, Lord Lord, have ...WE... not prophesied in Thy name, and in Thy name have cast out devils? and in Thy name DONE many wonderful WORKS?

Claiming HIS WORKING as their own ...IS... the INIQUITY they are "workers of"...   :sigh:  Matt 7:23

peace bro...  :thumbsup:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

I truly hope to convey my thoughts to you, if after reading them you have questions, I will be happy to try to answer them... and you are welcome to disagree with my findings. It is never my endeavor to change anyones beliefs... THAT is left to GOD only. 

If anything, it is my desire to be a tool in His hand... His blessings be unto you as you continue to search for Him!  :friendstu:

Quote from: Doc on May 04, 2009, 11:33:47 PM
Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

Might I begin by a noting (it is my observation) that the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" is the "REVEALING" of an ETERNAL entity to FINITE or "time-bound" beings (humanity)...

CHRIST cannot be defined by FINITE parameters, such as CHRONOLOGY.  Therefore, when observing the WORD, especially the "revealing" of who and what the WORD, IS... we make our first error by attaching anything which binds the WORD to our FINITE specifications (such as "chronology")...  :dontknow:  (hope thats not confusing!)

IOW -- JESUS (the WORD) is an entity which has NO BEGINNING or ENDING, so that which "REVEALS" Him, cannot be noted as having these characteristics... (chronology is about beginnings and endings, one thing -- following another)  ALL things concerning or alluding to CHRIST ...ARE... they do not "manifest" according to TIME ...OR... chronology.

That said...  The "whosoever was not written in the Book of Life". ...is ALL... Rev 20:15

ALL are "blotted OUT" of the BOOK of LIFE (cast INTO the LOF along with "death and the grave -- which is the created realm of TIME), ...In the ETERNAL, they ARE WRITTEN IN it by HIS LIFE which was given for ALL... for ALL DIE in ADAM... ALL have sinned and come short of LIFE - which IS the WORD (John 14:6) and IS the GLORY of GOD...

The "GWT" is NOW... as JESUS plainly noted:  NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31 ...there is no need for a future JUDGMENT other than that which exposes the (unforgiven) sin of humanity in the resurrection (Rev 3:18), and dissolves it with the "putting on of CHRIST" which is IMMORTALITY (LIFE without temporal parameters such as "beginning/born - end/death)...

ALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL...

IMO (you are welcome to disagree with it) ...those which observe the notations is "the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST" in "chronological" (chapter/verse) order is part of the NATURAL process that prevents "EARS from hearing"...  :Chinscratch:

I don't know if you have any familiarity with my observations Doc... but it is my observation that GOD "working" ALL THINGS, means they have "already been WORKED"... For GOD is not BOUND by TIME in His "WORK" efforts, as are we... Especially the WORKINGS of HIS WORDS which need NOT the manifestations of TIME in order to ...BE...  Rev 13:8 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 48:3

One of my observations, is that many of the things in the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" (the LAST book in the Bible), are found explained by the FIRST book...  :laughing7:

For GOD FINISHED His WORK (the ENTIRE work of creating ALL THINGS which are CREATED) by the close of the 6th DAY... Gen 2:1 ...and thereby, ALL TIME and ALL events (generations) within it were FINISHED at the close of the 6th DAY of Creation... and IN the SABBATH which has NO morning (beginning) or evening (ending), are found ALL THINGS, ...COMPLETE...

I realize that many shall not "get" what I am saying, so if this answer hasn't satisfied you or confuses you in any way, please feel free to ask for clarification and I will endeavor to re-word it in hopes to convey understanding...  :Peace2:

...willieH  :cloud9:

I do get what your saying and am only left in want for more . .but I guess I have never seen that all in the book of life are blotted out and cast into the LOF . . .which that process would then reinstate us back into the book of life?

Guess I'm not fully following that particular line of thought.

As the song "Come" goes . .still the greatest treasure remains for those, who gladly choose him now . . . . for me, that is the crux of accepting Christ . .of having that personal relationship . .. in that relationship, or "through" that relationship, I see the foregoing of the LOF.  If all are bound for the LOF whether we receive Christ or not, then what was the benefit of the cross?

Or am I misreading what you're saying?

Quote from: willieH on May 05, 2009, 10:04:24 PM
willieH: Hi Doc... :hithere:

I truly hope to convey my thoughts to you, if after reading them you have questions, I will be happy to try to answer them... and you are welcome to disagree with my findings. It is never my endeavor to change anyones beliefs... THAT is left to GOD only. 

If anything, it is my desire to be a tool in His hand... His blessings be unto you as you continue to search for Him!  :friendstu:

Quote from: Doc on May 04, 2009, 11:33:47 PM
Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

Might I begin by a noting (it is my observation) that the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" is the "REVEALING" of an ETERNAL entity to FINITE or "time-bound" beings (humanity)...

CHRIST cannot be defined by FINITE parameters, such as CHRONOLOGY.  Therefore, when observing the WORD, especially the "revealing" of who and what the WORD, IS... we make our first error by attaching anything which binds the WORD to our FINITE specifications (such as "chronology")...  :dontknow:  (hope thats not confusing!)

IOW -- JESUS (the WORD) is an entity which has NO BEGINNING or ENDING, so that which "REVEALS" Him, cannot be noted as having these characteristics... (chronology is about beginnings and endings, one thing -- following another)  ALL things concerning or alluding to CHRIST ...ARE... they do not "manifest" according to TIME ...OR... chronology.

That said...  The "whosoever was not written in the Book of Life". ...is ALL... Rev 20:15

ALL are "blotted OUT" of the BOOK of LIFE (cast INTO the LOF along with "death and the grave -- which is the created realm of TIME), ...In the ETERNAL, they ARE WRITTEN IN it by HIS LIFE which was given for ALL... for ALL DIE in ADAM... ALL have sinned and come short of LIFE - which IS the WORD (John 14:6) and IS the GLORY of GOD...

The "GWT" is NOW... as JESUS plainly noted:  NOW is the JUDGMENT of THIS WORLD -- John 12:31 ...there is no need for a future JUDGMENT other than that which exposes the (unforgiven) sin of humanity in the resurrection (Rev 3:18), and dissolves it with the "putting on of CHRIST" which is IMMORTALITY (LIFE without temporal parameters such as "beginning/born - end/death)...

ALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL...

IMO (you are welcome to disagree with it) ...those which observe the notations is "the REVELATION of JESUS CHRIST" in "chronological" (chapter/verse) order is part of the NATURAL process that prevents "EARS from hearing"...  :Chinscratch:

I don't know if you have any familiarity with my observations Doc... but it is my observation that GOD "working" ALL THINGS, means they have "already been WORKED"... For GOD is not BOUND by TIME in His "WORK" efforts, as are we... Especially the WORKINGS of HIS WORDS which need NOT the manifestations of TIME in order to ...BE...  Rev 13:8 -- Isaiah 46:10-11 -- Rom 4:17 -- Isaiah 48:3

One of my observations, is that many of the things in the "Revelation of JESUS CHRIST" (the LAST book in the Bible), are found explained by the FIRST book...  :laughing7:

For GOD FINISHED His WORK (the ENTIRE work of creating ALL THINGS which are CREATED) by the close of the 6th DAY... Gen 2:1 ...and thereby, ALL TIME and ALL events (generations) within it were FINISHED at the close of the 6th DAY of Creation... and IN the SABBATH which has NO morning (beginning) or evening (ending), are found ALL THINGS, ...COMPLETE...

I realize that many shall not "get" what I am saying, so if this answer hasn't satisfied you or confuses you in any way, please feel free to ask for clarification and I will endeavor to re-word it in hopes to convey understanding...  :Peace2:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Ok. I think I'm following you, at least somewhat. One thing I consistently forget is that as Westerners, we tend to view things in a linear fashion, whereas the Hebrews view things in more of a cyclical fashion. (I know, because I recently had a Jewish individual tell me that). It sounds to me like your understanding of this takes more of that approach. It's a sort of repeating cycle rather than a series of events played out in a linear fashion. And because the revelation of Christ (who is outside of time) further defies time-related constraints...It isn't a linear thing at all, is it? Am I getting you?

Now, I am trying to understand this next quote more:

QuoteALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL

So, are we blotted out of the book of life at our physical death, and that is the LOF, or...? I'm confused about how this piece works. The scripture outlines what character flaws "qualify" us for the LOF; most of them are things we'd recognize as sins, but the fearfulness one is kind of a stumper. Can you comment on the listed character flaw piece and how that fits in? I'm trying to get a big picture here of how all these components fit in; I'm clearly not used to thinking of it other than in the way that tradition teaches, so...a bit of a learning curve for me.

willieH: Hi sister S... :hithere:

Quote from: sparrow on May 03, 2009, 01:55:18 AM

Quote from: willieH on May 03, 2009, 12:26:41 AM
Furthermore, ...it is not my endeavor to convince you... but I post these thoughts contrary to your false message of FEAR, ...that others might not be deterred by that negative message... and hear the TRUTH, that GOD LOVES the WORLD, and that they need not be AFRAID of the one who LOVES THEM the MOST...

There is NO PEACE within FEAR, nor is there PEACE in your proposals of TORMENTS beyond this life OF even more TORMENTS...  :rolleye:

When (and/or IF) you arrive at my age (63)... and you are made by arriving there, to observe this lifetime in retrospect... you will likely find a different perspective than you might presently hold...  Having been through the "FIRE" of many "losses", which have been CONSUMED by that "FIRE"...

The "FIRE" of DEATH given unto your life, until you are SICK up to your neck of it... having taken away one by one, all those you LOVE... and the "FIRE" which consumes -- your youth, your health, your career, your usefulness, the list is almost "endless"... but which is NOT devoid of the HOPE (expectation) of the GREAT PROMISES of GOD!  Which shall RENEW and REVEAL the ETERNAL GLORY, which shall SHINE GLORIOUSLY in the FACE of these "FIRE losses" (read JOB to get an idea)

Part of our "Creation" which is ETERNALLY aimed at PERFECTION (completion)... is SUFFERING, for even CHRIST, the Captain of our Salvation was made PERFECT (complete) THROUGH SUFFERING... Heb 2:10

Peace brother Z...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Thank you Willie.... :HeartThrob:
Your post really helped me today.
I was getting super sucked into a lot of fear for some reason.  :dontknow:
I stayed up all night last night....  :gsad:
I tried to sleep and just kept getting back up pacing around.
Then a noisy mockingbird outside my window would not stop singing.
They do that sometimes, at night.
iy iy iy.

Anyway, again...
Thank you.
You really helped my heart and mind today.
love you.
Thank you.
(( hugs ))

Didn't want to miss the chance to say HI! :hithere: 

As well as that I am thankful that God used my words and they have been a help to you...  :friendstu:

Loveya sis!  :angel4:

Quote from: Doc on May 04, 2009, 11:33:47 PM

Hi Willie. I appreciate your comments on the LOF with regard to some not being harmed or hurt of it. This does seem to imply that none will avoid it. My question for you is; if none avoid it, what is the significance of the statement that those who are not found in the lambs book of life will be thrown in, in connection with the GWT judgment. I'm still confused about that. Thanks!

What is the lamb's book of life?
Of course, we all know the lamb means the Christ.
Then what is his book of life?

The law was written on the stone tablets (book) by the way of Moses.
And now, the law is to be written on the tablets of human heart by Christ,
which is called grace and salvation.

[2Cor 3:3]
You show that you are a letter from Christ, the result of our ministry,
written not with ink but with the Spirit of the living God,
not on tablets of stone but on tablets of human hearts.

So Lamb's book of life is our individual human hearts.

"Someone is found in the book of life (Lamb's)"
This means that the Word is written on his heart by Jesus Christ.
That is : if he has the Word written on his heart,
then his name is in the Lamb's book of life.

He is not required to go through the Lake of Fire,
because he already has gone through it together with Jesus
during the process of writing the Word in his heart.

God bless.

willieH: Hi bro... :hithere:

:boogie:  :cloud9:

Quote from: Nathan on May 05, 2009, 10:41:19 PM
I do get what your saying and am only left in want for more . .but I guess I have never seen that all in the book of life are blotted out and cast into the LOF . . .which that process would then reinstate us back into the book of life?

Guess I'm not fully following that particular line of thought.

No worries mate!  :friendstu:

Let me begin by saying that most believe we begin SINLESS and upon the 1st "sin", our name is stricken from the book... However... If you examine the Parable of the Prodigal... He was WITH the Father, then LEFT, then came BACK...  The book of Job (Job 38:7) notes that ALL the SONS of GOD, rejoiced at the creation...   :dontknow:

ALL means ALL...  We did not "become alive" when born into this life... we have ALWAYS been... and in this observation, shall my beliefs FORK from most others...  When we enter this life, we are blotted out, for we are concieved in SIN as was noted by David: Ps 51:5

If one DIES, one is NOT ALIVE... ALL are APPOINTED to DIE... and in doing so... await RESURRECTION...

The "book" of LIFE is the state of LIVING... That each man is APPOINTED to DIE, means he/she, has a date with DEATH, and therefore is NOT in the "state" (notation/book) of LIFE.

QuoteAs the song "Come" goes . .still the greatest treasure remains for those, who gladly choose him now . . . . for me, that is the crux of accepting Christ . .of having that personal relationship . .. in that relationship, or "through" that relationship, I see the foregoing of the LOF.  If all are bound for the LOF whether we receive Christ or not, then what was the benefit of the cross?

Or am I misreading what you're saying?

The "benefit" of the cross, is KNOWING CHRIST while in the Sinful state of the flesh bro!  To KNOW CHRIST is the greatest reward of all, for LOVE is the greatest of ALL THINGS, and is the essence of WHO and WHAT, ...GOD is!

The "reward" is not about "how much" we might get for being "good"... That would be promoting selfishness... which seeks to GAIN from the GIVER... indulging oneself in "rewards"...

It is about the thankfulness of the HONOR of being chosen as little portions of LIGHT, shining in the darkness... Which is promoting humility... and in that service, ...GIVES ALL that was "given", back to the GIVER... Which is the greatest "benefit or reward" that we can aspire to... Serving our Creator and His PURPOSE for ALL...  :grouppray:

...willieH  :thumbsup:

willieH: Hi Doc!  :hithere:

Quote from: Doc on May 05, 2009, 10:47:35 PM
Ok. I think I'm following you, at least somewhat. One thing I consistently forget is that as Westerners, we tend to view things in a linear fashion, whereas the Hebrews view things in more of a cyclical fashion. (I know, because I recently had a Jewish individual tell me that). It sounds to me like your understanding of this takes more of that approach. It's a sort of repeating cycle rather than a series of events played out in a linear fashion. And because the revelation of Christ (who is outside of time) further defies time-related constraints...It isn't a linear thing at all, is it? Am I getting you?

Now, I am trying to understand this next quote more:

Quote from: willieHALL are appointed to DIE... Heb 9:27 so IN that DEATH, they become "blotted out" of the BOOK of LIFE (the "STATE" of actually LIVING)... But EACH life is found encompassed within the LIFE of the LAMB... for He DIED (tasted "death" - Heb 2:9) for ALL and was RAISED for ALL, being SAVIOR of ALL

Quote from: Doc on May 05, 2009, 10:47:35 PMSo, are we blotted out of the book of life at our physical death, and that is the LOF, or...? I'm confused about how this piece works.

We are born "DEAD" bro... CHRIST noted LIVING, Breathing men... as DEAD Matt 8:22  We are cast into this life (LOF), "blotted out"...

Only 2 MEN have not been "born DEAD"... the FIRST Man -- Adam and the SECOND Man - JESUS -- 1 Cor 15:47  The 1st fell to SIN and ALL his decendants DIE in him -- The 2nd did NOT, and ALL return to LIFE in Him -- 1 Cor 15:22

Quote from: Doc on May 05, 2009, 10:47:35 PMThe scripture outlines what character flaws "qualify" us for the LOF; most of them are things we'd recognize as sins, but the fearfulness one is kind of a stumper. Can you comment on the listed character flaw piece and how that fits in?

I don't see these as "character flaws"... I see them as that which emerges from the CARNAL/NATURAL heart that is Desparately wicked -- Jer 17:9

If we are regenerated, then these things cease to be on our "to do, program"... Which does not mean we shall not ever again fall into them... as PAUL very competently noted in his own personal battle while in the flesh -- Rom 7  Rather, it means that the FLESH is recognized as the ENEMY of the SPIRIT, and that the battle rages within us between the two...

FEAR is a NATURAL emotion... As the Scripture however notes:  If GOD be FOR us, WHO can be AGAINST us?  If we are immersed in the confidence of our FATHER, then FEAR ceases to work in us... 1 John 4:18

I just had surgery last September, Doc... and was not the least bit FEARFUL as I potentially faced my end...  Instead, I embraced the LOVE of the FATHER, and He joined me in the "OR"...  When I came out of it, I had such pain and discomfort, at one point, I told Him, "I can't take any more!"... He replied in my spirit: "You CAN, and you WILL... I will be with you and WE shall come forth from this together!" ...well, here I am.  Still ornery as ever, and still breathin' & eatin' & postin' on Tentmaker!   :boogie:  And once in a while, playin' a tune or two on my guitar!  :boogie:  :drummer: :angelharp: :violin: :grouppray: :grouppray: :grouppray: :grouppray:

Quote from: Doc on May 05, 2009, 10:47:35 PMI'm trying to get a big picture here of how all these components fit in; I'm clearly not used to thinking of it other than in the way that tradition teaches, so...a bit of a learning curve for me.

Don't feel bad my brother... we are ALL on that Learning curve... (or at least, we SHOULD BE!)...  No one "knowsitall"!

The WORD is such a deep OCEAN of LOVE, Wisdom and knowledge, that even though we only have the 66 books of Scripture, and have barely scratched the surface of its content... it was said of CHRIST (the WORD), that if ALL would be written of Him, the WORLD could not CONTAIN the books!

Peace bro...  :Peace:

...willieH  :cloud9:

Ok, thanks Willie. I only used the term "character flaws" for want of a better term to use, so thanks for that clarification as well. I've got to ponder these things and let them sink in, and I'm sure I'll have more questions at some point, but I can't think of any more right now...

:thumbsup:

Quote from: willieH on May 05, 2009, 10:49:36 PM
willieH: Hi sister S... :hithere:

Didn't want to miss the chance to say HI! :hithere: 

As well as that I am thankful that God used my words and they have been a help to you...  :friendstu:

Loveya sis!  :angel4:

...willieH  :cloud9:

:friendstu:

willieH: Hi PM...  :sigh:

I, being a victim of this disease, wanted to comment on your post, as I find it arrogant and offensive!  :thumbdown:

Quote from: peacemaker on May 02, 2009, 02:34:19 AM
"Cancer is a preventable disease; eat from the fruit of the Spirit, not of the flesh."

Are you saying that one such as myself which has contracted this disease has not eaten of the fruit of the spirit?  I have walked with GOD for 33 years, and will do so for the remainder of my lifetime...  :icon_king:

QuoteDon't forget the veggies, like broccoli, cauliflower, cabbage, and brussels sprouts while leaving the animal fat behind.
And let us not leave out the onion, garlic, or cranberries, blueberries, and grapes

Many do this and still get CANCER... There is NO SUREFIRE "preventative method" or EVERYONE would be ON IT...  :thumbdown:

QuoteHabits and attitude make a difference.

"Live by what you trust, not by what you fear."

peacemaker

Sorry PM, this is BIG talk from someone who IS NOT facing the problem...  pride goeth before a fall...  :thumbdown:

I am not in FEAR of the Cancer which assaults my body, I trust my life and EVERYTHING in it HAS PURPOSE... (which includes the CANCER I am battling)

I am doing all I can, to include eating of the fruit of the Spirit, and taking any and all treatments available, ...in order to deter it... and the PAIN that accompanies IT...

What you THINK you have sidestepped -- could enter your life at ANY MOMENT... so get off this arrogant "ADVISORY trip" you are on... and find compassion for those who are REALLY dealing with this horrible disease...  :crywipe: