I've asked this question before and it went well, but I do not believe any of us came to anything close to some satisfaction.
I realize we all have insights and they all differ, I consider that a good thing.
God created ALL things, that is a truth we agree on, I hope. With that in mind, is the adversary[satan] a created being or spirit? We know that God is the Father of spirits. Be the spirit be it good of bad.
Heb 12:9 Thereafter, indeed, we had the fathers of our flesh as discipliners, and we respected them. Yet shall we not much rather be subjected to the Father of spirits and be living."
I find no place in the Bible about created "beings or beings," (I may have over looked some thing so please don't hold me to an absolute.)
I reason and believe that the enemy (satan, devil, serpent, dragon) is a spirit, with multiple attributes, designed to plague, with the intention of overwhelming mankind, especially man mind.
These are my reasonings and my understanding. I would appreciate your thoughts. :bigGrin:
I've said many times what I think Satan is--a 'god'--the shining one--yes a spirit but a spirit that can take on form--as a serpentine, shining being [in the garden], even as an angel of light, even as a man he possesses [Judas].
Satan has no part in me because I am sealed by Christ. I do not believe that Satan is man or man's carnal mind as so many people here do, although that is how Satan is able to influence and control man.
I agree with Molly.
CHB
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons. For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures. It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me.
I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.
I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy. At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel.
I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has. For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm. Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it. People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind? I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative. Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER?? If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
Any takers on that one???
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden. Jesus has come to redeem the world on the cross. Satan offers Jesus [in his human form] all the kingdoms of the world--no need to go through the trauma of the cross--if only Jesus will bow down and worship him. That will place Satan higher on the hierarchy than the Son of God, a position he covets. It will also assure his rule over us.
He also offers a hungry man bread, and, a powerful man a chance to exercise his power for his own aggrandizement. Again, if Jesus took the bait, he would have failed in his mission to defeat Satan.
Now that Jesus has defeated Satan, we become Satan's next target because we are Jesus' brethren, part of the body of Christ, and will rule and reign with Christ. But we are able to overcome Satan through Jesus--if only we understand this.
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control. Adam did. The buck stops with Adam. It was Adam's to lose.
So . . .according to you Molly, Adam lost control and satan got it . . .so from Adam to Jesus, satan was in control of the world? If that were the case, couldn't satan then have stopped the world from spinning? Isn't his only goal to destroy man because God favored man over him? He was in control of the world but he couldn't stop Jesus from being born? How much "control" did he have then? Just "tormental" control? He has a third of all of heavens angels with him, his in the spirit, which is interesting because Jesus said he saw him fall to the earth . . .if he saw him fall to the earth, why can't we see him on the earth? Why can we only see the results of where he's been? Kinda like the Holy Spirit . . .
If satan fell to the earth . . .is he still spirit? isn't spirit a higher plain than physical? How can satan fall from the spirit to the earth and still be bound by the earth? Or was he bound at all? How can he approach God's throne as he did in Job, come and go from a SPIRITUAL throne of God to the NATURAL earth to destroy men . . .but still not able to destroy "all" men.
There are just too many "add-as-you-go" rules to this whole line of thought. We want to embrace just "one" aspect of who he is but not all of the rest of the common sense questions that would affect the whole picture should that "one" aspect be real.
You say that's easy, satan wasn't tempting the spirit of Jesus, he was tempting his flesh .. .well . . .what was satan? Spirit or flesh? Was he physical or spiritual? If he was spiritual, then why would he only have tried to tempt the natural part of Jesus. Was Jesus not all spiritual and all physical at the same time? Satan didn't think of that? Isn't he supposed to be the most crafty beast in all the field?
We say he's a spirit, but he has limited understanding of God??? Satan is a spirit, but he was thrown out of heaven and now he's in the spirit roaming around on the earth . . .yet . . .heaven is all around us on this earth, just on the other side of the physical realm . . .unless heaven really is located somewhere outside the furthest galaxy and the army that Elisha could see, but his servant couldn't see . . .I can't even finish that sentence because even in the attempt to make it fit so that satan can be in the spirit but cast to the earth at the same time, it totally contrasts the examples in Scripture as to where heaven is.
In your mind, it's easy, but you never really answered anything. The only part I can agree with you on is, satan tempted the carnal side of Jesus . . .except I'm not sure you'll agree with "that" piece either because you'd have to say there was some carnality in Jesus. But that's been my point all along . . .it wasn't the leader of hell dragging around the leader of heaven . . .tempting the physical part of him . . .it was the physical NATURE in Jesus that was tempting Jesus IN him. It just fits.
Father has revealed in these last days..when it seems the adversary has overcome and been victorious[deceived the entire inhabited earth..].
that satan has NOT suceeded in causing the loss of one single man in Adam....However,it IS THE WILL OF GOD..that we continue in our spiritual
warfare and RULE OVER THE KINGDOM OF DARKNESS until He does away with him at the breath of His coming..
This revealing was not for the purpose of everyone to say'it doesn't matter...but was for the purpose of vivyfying the fatigued in
spiritual warfare. Like a Captain of Host saying...Carry on the victory is assured!!!Micahael stand up and everyone delivered.
The adversary was not Adam,nor old Adam...but the overcoming of man by the adversary....the abomination is the spirit of the adversary
in our temple/body...of which God said 'throw this temple down and I will raise it up on the third day........
This whole good evil expierence was in the divine plan of Father..for the children of God to be exercized in,However it has been far more traumatic
then it need be..due to mankind not heeding God's instructions...for He did not ever tell us to seek Him in vain...for He teaches us the best way
and for our benefit in this realm
So heed Him to the best of your ability..it is for your benefit......
The MYSTERY OF LAWLESSNESS IS THE VERY ADVERSARY AND HIS WICKED WORKS THROUGH MAN....THE MAN OF SIN IS THE ADVERSARY
IN THE TENPLE[abomination/demonic possession] A HOLY PLACE IS OUR BODY/CREATED FOR THE SPIRIT OF GOD TO DWELL IN..........
GOD DECLARES HE WILL DESTROY ANY THAT DESTROYS HIS TEMPLE.....HE SAYS,"TOUCH NOT MY ANNOINTED"and 'BECAUSE I WAS THERE"
The adversary IS NOT CARNAL MAN.....but MAN IS CARNAL WHEN THE ADVERSARY IS IN HIM[behaves like a beast]...
Old Man Adam is not man of sin.........BUT DYING ADAM KILLED BY ADVERSARY...OF WHICH CHRIST GIVES LIFE....
THE SON OF PERDITION is not Judas....BUT SATAN THAT ENTERED HIM........and liar[false prophet/theif/murderer/slanderer formed an evil plot to hand Him over]
and used Judas flesh to do it... Just as in the garden...false prophet/theif/slanderer/murderer spirit spoke through the body of a serpent....
the most subtil 'BEAST' of the field....and now you KNOW THE MARK OF THE BEAST...whether in a body of many men forming a 'kingdom'
on this earth/government...that Babylon rides..or a religious'kingdom' or a single man........and they are always anti-CHRIST or anti-annointing..because
it is a spirit of anti=adversary against truth,love,saving of Adam
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 08:02:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control. Adam did. The buck stops with Adam. It was Adam's to lose.
If Adam had control (for a short while) that control was given/granted by God. The control Adam had was not absolute controle otherwise Adam would have been the superior of God for a while.....
So for me it simply means God gave Adam some contol knowing it would go downhill very soon. As planned. If God would not want Adam to fall He would have made sure Eve wasn't tricked. Serpent free garden. Guardian angels. Or even will as strong as Jesus had.
So for me the above means God allowed it to happen. And for that it doesn't really matter the serpent was literal serpent, evil thoughts, a guy with a pitchfork, one of millions of fallen angles, etc
It did happen. God didn't stop it because it did fit in His plan.
Quote from: Nathan.it was the physical NATURE in Jesus that was tempting Jesus IN him. It just fits.
No. That of all things, you must see the error of it. Jesus says,
Hereafter I will not talk much with you: for the prince of this world cometh, and hath nothing in me.--John 14:30
Jesus was without sin, knew not sin, was without spot or blemish--the perfect Lamb of God.
He was in a human physical body and proved that it was possible to live as a human and not sin.
This defeated Satan, once and for all.
The carnal body and mind makes us susceptible, that is, easy targets for an evil spirit that wishes to destroy us.
Be self-controlled and alert. Your enemy the devil prowls around like a roaring lion looking for someone to devour--1 Peter 5:8
Is that describing me? Or my body? Am I like a walking zombie looking for someone to devour because I live in a physical body?
No, I am a lamb, led to the slaughter all day long.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 09:29:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 08:02:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control. Adam did. The buck stops with Adam. It was Adam's to lose.
If Adam had control (for a short while) that control was given/granted by God. The control Adam had was not absolute controle otherwise Adam would have been the superior of God for a while.....
So for me it simply means God gave Adam some contol knowing it would go downhill very soon. As planned. If God would not want Adam to fall He would have made sure Eve wasn't tricked. Serpent free garden. Guardian angels. Or even will as strong as Jesus had.
So for me the above means God allowed it to happen. And for that it doesn't really matter the serpent was literal serpent, evil thoughts, a guy with a pitchfork, one of millions of fallen angles, etc
It did happen. God didn't stop it because it did fit in His plan.
If a King grants a castle and land to his knight, does the King then hover over the knight trying to micromanage it from afar? No that gift is without repententence--that is, irrevocable. It now belongs to the knight, and it is his to keep or lose.
Such was the gift of authority over the world given to Adam. The only way Adam could lose it was through death, so the Nachash made sure that death would gain dominion over Adam. At that point, the only thing God could do is redeem Adam from death with his own death--which is what he did--following the law of the kinsman redeemer, that is, a kinsman of Adam--Jesus-- had to pay the debt in full.
That it never occurred to Satan that God would do that is without question---because Satan does not have or understand divine Love.
I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 01:30:31 PM
I've said many times what I think Satan is--a 'god'--the shining one--yes a spirit but a spirit that can take on form--as a serpentine, shining being [in the garden], even as an angel of light, even as a man he possesses [Judas].
Satan has no part in me because I am sealed by Christ. I do not believe that Satan is man or man's carnal mind as so many people here do, although that is how Satan is able to influence and control man.
See my PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 09:51:04 PM
I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.
Look what God said to Adam--
Where art thou?Who told thee that thou wast naked?Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat? Having been a parent, I am very familiar with the shock and horror these questions evoke.
What am I saying? The King is shocked and horrified if the knight gives the castle away to the King's enemy for a bowl of pottage or the hand of a pretty woman.
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 06:52:21 PM
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons. For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures. It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me.
I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.
I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy. At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel.
I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has. For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm. Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it. People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind? I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative. Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER?? If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
Any takers on that one???
Yep Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
AND as you suggest that the adversary(satan) is the carnal mind, then you are saying that Jesus when He was tempted had a carnal mind..... that is blasphemy, Jesus had NO SIN, and certainly having a carnal mind is surely sin.
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 08:02:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control. Adam did. The buck stops with Adam. It was Adam's to lose.
If as you say "Adam did," and "the buck stops with Adam," and " It was Adam's to lose." The God lost control OR He was never in control and that I assure you is not an option. God started what we all have to day and in the past and He will finish what He started or He is not God.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden. Jesus has come to redeem the world on the cross. Satan offers Jesus [in his human form] all the kingdoms of the world--no need to go through the trauma of the cross--if only Jesus will bow down and worship him. That will place Satan higher on the hierarchy than the Son of God, a position he covets. It will also assure his rule over us.
He also offers a hungry man bread, and, a powerful man a chance to exercise his power for his own aggrandizement. Again, if Jesus took the bait, he would have failed in his mission to defeat Satan.
Now that Jesus has defeated Satan, we become Satan's next target because we are Jesus' brethren, part of the body of Christ, and will rule and reign with Christ. But we are able to overcome Satan through Jesus--if only we understand this.
"won fair and square in the garden." Molly
Now that is ridiculous, won fair and square :laughing7: By suggesting that the adversary could possibly win something over its Creator is well. And if that were the case then we had all should get pretty no really fearful that the enemy could possible over run God The Creator again. Do you see the foolishness. Remember Jesus is the Beginning and the End.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 09:29:47 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 08:02:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control. Adam did. The buck stops with Adam. It was Adam's to lose.
If Adam had control (for a short while) that control was given/granted by God. The control Adam had was not absolute controle otherwise Adam would have been the superior of God for a while.....
So for me it simply means God gave Adam some contol knowing it would go downhill very soon. As planned. If God would not want Adam to fall He would have made sure Eve wasn't tricked. Serpent free garden. Guardian angels. Or even will as strong as Jesus had.
So for me the above means God allowed it to happen. And for that it doesn't really matter the serpent was literal serpent, evil thoughts, a guy with a pitchfork, one of millions of fallen angles, etc
It did happen. God didn't stop it because it did fit in His plan.
:thumbsup:
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 09:51:50 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 01:30:31 PM
I've said many times what I think Satan is--a 'god'--the shining one--yes a spirit but a spirit that can take on form--as a serpentine, shining being [in the garden], even as an angel of light, even as a man he possesses [Judas].
Satan has no part in me because I am sealed by Christ. I do not believe that Satan is man or man's carnal mind as so many people here do, although that is how Satan is able to influence and control man.
See my PM
Lucifer
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Isa 14:4 That thou shalt
take up this proverb against the king of Babylon, and say, How hath the oppressor ceased! the golden city ceased!
Isa 14:12 How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning! how art thou cut down to the ground, which didst weaken the nations!
The word, 'proverb', is rendered from the Hebrew root word, משׁל, mashal (the actual word used here is המשׁל, hamashal, "this proverb"). משׁל can be rendered parable, by-word, lamentation, allegory, taunt, similitude, etc. It is also rendered 'let' and 'rule'. The context tells the meaning. Therefore, the mashal can be an allegory or a similitude. That is, it uses a substantive object as a metaphor for another object. In this case, the immediate object of the parable is the king of Babylon, who was substantive, for he was a flesh and blood person. It is more likely that Belshazzar is the king in question than Nebuchadnezzar. The former lost the kingdom to the Medes and Persians. This parable refers to that one who lost the kingdom. Nebuchadnezzar did not lose Babylon, the golden city; Belshazzar did.
However, being an allegory or a similitude, the literal refers to the figurative. Figuratively, the parable regards one named Lucifer. This Lucifer is another who lost a kingdom. In orthodox Christianity, we understand Lucifer as Satan, the Devil, Beelzebul, the Dragon, etc. Even so, how do we know that Lucifer is the correct rendering of the Hebrew? Modern textual criticism and modern scholarship scorn the idea that this light bearer, the son of the dawn is indeed Satan. They say that Jerome, in his Vulgate, used the word Lucifer, which is a combination of the Latin lucis (light—genitive of lux) and ferre (to bear), meaning light-bearer or shining one.They also say that Isaiah did not have Satan in mind when he wrote this parable. These experts state that Isaiah simply meant the king of Babylon. Many Roman Catholics regard that Lucifer is not the proper name of the devil, but denotes only the state from which he has fallen. Accordingly, he was the light bearer of Heaven before he fell. Literally,
Isaiah uses the term Helel Ben Shachar (הילל בן־שׁחר ), light bearer (or shining one), son of the dawn, to refer to the fall of the Babylonian king.Now I would like to remind you of what Bullinger said about the "shining one":
These all compel the belief that Satan was the shining one (Nachash) in Genesis 3, and especially because the following words could be addressed to him :- "Thine heart was lifted up because of thy beauty, thou hast corrupted thy wisdom by reason of
thy brightness: I will cast thee to the ground, I will lay thee before kings, that they may behold thee" (verse 17).
—The Companion Bible, Appendix 19, E.W. Bullinger
Written by Dr. Bullinger in the late Nineteenth Century, this appendix refers to the serpent in Eden. Revelation 20:2 tells us that this serpent was none other than "that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan". Bullinger calls Satan the "shining one", albeit from a different Hebrew word, but still with the same meaning. Strong, Briggs, Robinson, and others tell us that the term, הילל, helel, can be translated "shining one".
The Septuagint translators used the word εωσφορος (heosphoros) to render הילל, helel. Breaking the word apart, we have εωσ, heos, and φορος, phoros. The first word, heos, comes from φως, phos, meaning light. The second word, phoros, comes from φορεω, phoreo, meaning to carry a burden, or to bear (compare 'phosphorus'). Hence, a εωσφορος, or heosphoros, is a light bearer. If one bears a light, then the light shines, therefore a light bearer could be said to be a shining one. Note that phosphorescent things shine in the dark.
We learn from ancient Greek literature that the word heosphoros, which is basically the English word, phosphorus, means light bearer, dawn bringer, star of the morning, morning star, daystar, and Venus (AKA the morning star). Wade Cox, a writer for logon.org, made this statement about the heosphoros: "This terminology goes back also into ancient mythology and represents a function of rulership. With the Babylonians, it was attributed to the Ishtar system in the evening as the Evening Star representing sexual love and the Morning Star represented Ishtar as goddess of war. This was reflected in the triune system as employed by Babylon." Truly, the ancients worshipped the morning star, Venus, as a goddess. We know that goddess worship originated with Satan. Paul said that worshipping an idol, and Venus is an idol, is worshipping demons. 1 Corinthians 10:19-20, "What say I then? that the idol is any thing, or that which is offered in sacrifice to idols is any thing? But I say, that the things which the Gentiles sacrifice, they sacrifice to devils, and not to God: and I would not that ye should have fellowship with devils."
Along this same line of reasoning, let us review excerpts from The Westminster Hebrew Morphology comments:
All the uses of our verb appear in contexts with mythological connections. This is not to say that biblical writers assumed the validity of pagan myth. Indeed, as Job (Job 41:18 [H 10]) seeks to make clear, God alone exists as deity. The pagan gods are creations of their own minds (Isa 2:8). Leviathan is a toy in God's hands, i.e., he mocks the pagan religions... our verb appears alludes to shaµar (q.v.; cf. J. W. McKay, "Helel and the Dawn-Goddess," VT 20: 456ff) which is probably to be understood as the name of a goddess. McKay (op. cit.) contends that in the allusion in Isa 14:12-15 there is a Canaanite version of the Greek Phaethon myth as mediated and influenced by Phoenician culture during the "heroic age." The development of the Canaanite version is complex and has affinities with the Ugaritic myth involving Athar, son of Athirat, who was unable to occupy the throne of Baal. It was Phaethon who attempted to scale the heights of heaven and as the dawn star was ever condemned to be cast down into Hades (she°ôl, q.v.)... it is important to note the following philological oddities: (1) har môe'd (Isa 14:13) and Ugaritic gr.ll ("The Mount of Lala") where there assembled the p-r. m'd, ("The Assembled Body" ANET, p. 130-UT 16: Text 137:20) and (2) the name saphôn [sides of the north] (Isa 14:13) which is well known in Ugaritic as the mountain of the gods. The God of Israel is not enthroned on Saphon; he reigns from heaven itself...Any interpretation of Isa 14 which does not take into account the mythological allusion does injustice to what is said there.
It is certain that Isaiah fully understood the mythology of star worship when he wrote this passage. The Babylonians worshipped a pantheon that included the starry hosts. Such worship was a direct result of the corrupting influence of the evil one on the world. We also know, as did Isaiah, that these pagan rulers deemed themselves gods and accepted the worship of their subjects. Do you remember the statue that got Meshach, Shadrach, and Abednego thrown into the fiery furnace? Nebuchadnezzar wanted them to bow down to his statue, that is, he wanted them to worship him as a god. It is therefore no stretch of the facts, or the imagination, to insist that Isaiah was metaphorically referring to Satan.
Lucifer is a name we call this shining one since the advent of the Latin versions of the Bible. Does that make it wrong to continue to use the word Lucifer? No. In fact it is better that we do not throw away the name Lucifer, for the great deception of the Devil is to make people believe he does not exist. The modern textual critic and the modernist Biblical "scholar" would have us believe that Lucifer is a misnomer and a refutation of the facts. Actually, they have fallen under the deceptive spell of the Devil themselves. They too have accepted his lie that he does not exist. Let us retain the name Lucifer, for it continually reminds us of Satan and his power.
Now Lucifer, the morning star, who is Satan, has power over this world. When Christ, the Bright and Morning Star came, He defeated Satan the self-proclaimed morning star. This alludes to a transfer of power from Satan to Christ, which is truly Biblical. Genesis tells us that the serpent will bruise the heel of the Seed of the woman , and that the Seed will crush the head of the serpent (the Seed represents Christ). Satan, who had been the prince of the power of the air since the beginning of the world, successfully had Christ crucified, thus bruising His heel. Nevertheless, the victory was Christ's, for after the crucifixion, Christ arose and crushed the head of the serpent. Satan may no longer posses anyone who is saved. The Devil cannot possess a saved person because he has the Holy Spirit in himself. An evil spirit cannot displace the Holy Spirit. Satan no longer has power over God's children unless those children allow hm to have power over them. As long as we keep our eyes on Christ, Satan has no power over us. That means his power has diminished significantly. Thus his head has been crushed. But he is not dead yet. At the end of the age he will be cast into the lake of fire where he will remain forever. Then his demise will be complete.
In the First Century BC, the term helel was used to refer to Satan. In the days that Christ lived, Lucifer, the light bearer, masquerading as an angel of light, and Satan were considered synonymous. It was simple for the early church to assign the devil to helel and to this passage in Isaiah. Isaiah does not highlight the distinction, though he understood it, and that is why modernist scholars wrongly say that Isaiah did not have Satan in mind.
When one looks at the context, it is easy to see that these things mentioned here do not apply to a mere human. Yes, they can allegorically apply to a king, and the King of Babylon is mentioned, but they can also refer to the celestial shining being who is known as Satan. Since the early church assigned this view to Lucifer, I am willing to accept that Satan is in view in this passage. After all, in the apostolic age, many revelations of truth not known before the advent of Christ came to light. For example, the mystery that is the Gospel was unknown in the Old Testament era. It is no stretch to accept that the revelation given to Isaiah referred to Satan (knowingly or unknowingly) and that God reserved that revelation until the advent of His Son. I am certain that Lucifer, or Helel Ben Shachar, is the devil.
http://www.bibleword.org/lucifer.shtml
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 09:59:06 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 06:52:21 PM
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons. For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures. It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me.
I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.
I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy. At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel.
I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has. For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm. Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it. People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind? I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative. Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER?? If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
Any takers on that one???
Yep Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
AND as you suggest that the adversary(satan) is the carnal mind, then you are saying that Jesus when He was tempted had a carnal mind..... that is blasphemy, Jesus had NO SIN, and certainly having a carnal mind is surely sin.
That doesn't really fly either . . .there are just as many commentaries out there that can argue the same thought. I'm not all that interested in a commentary that someone wrote 50 or a hundred years ago. I want what God is saying in us "now".
Come on . . . if he didn't have to deal with carnality within, then he wasn't ALL flesh. Having a carnal mind merely is saying you are a physical being. We all have carnal minds . . .that's what we were seeing with him being tempted in the wilderness, it was showing that he was just as human as the next guy. But he used that experience as an example of how all humans can overcome the carnal nature within us.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 10:02:46 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 08:02:48 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 07:58:08 PM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 07:40:52 PM
Quote from: NathanSatan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
That's easy. Satan is the god of this world, won fair and square in the garden.
Or was allowed to win....
There is simply no way around the fact that either God lost control, or didn't but allows certain things to happen. What the advesary is or isn't is totally irrelevant.
God didn't lose control. Adam did. The buck stops with Adam. It was Adam's to lose.
If as you say "Adam did," and "the buck stops with Adam," and " It was Adam's to lose." The God lost control OR He was never in control and that I assure you is not an option. God started what we all have to day and in the past and He will finish what He started or He is not God.
When you give the keys to the car to your teenager, do you then jump into the driver's seat?
That Lucifer stuff is well silly.
If that stuff is so true it sure seems it should be important enough to have been mentioned at least just a hint in Genesis what man would be up against. Its like the tales and myths about ET, nothing at all said about that our sins would cause us to receive ET. in the entire OT.
No, the Lucifer of Isa.14:12 is a story theologians and orthodoxy feeds to those who have a great imagination.
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 10:21:18 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 09:59:06 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 06:52:21 PM
I do disagree with Molly's take on this for many reasons. For one, it pertains to not taking the responsibility for my own inabilities and failures. It's much easier to say the devil made me do it rather than realize that the source is not that which is from without but it is actually that which is within me.
I don't at all believe that God created literal angels that were deceived or tricked or however it was supposedly to have happened and God either wasn't aware of the fact that a third of his angels had turned on him, or that he "was" aware of it and didn't do anything until a third of them turned on him . . .either way . . .it's a Hollywood version of God and not truth.
I believe too much emphasis is given over to satan that is both inaccurate and unhealthy. At this point in my life and relationship, I'm a bit wary of "any" belief that is accepted by the majority of the church due to the fact that I think most of those same people have embraced tradition over relationship and it's tainted every thing else they portray as gospel.
I find it interesting that many can believe satan is the leader of demons and hell, but at the same time, hell is kinda up in the air as to what it is, where it is, and what purpose it has. For me, hell resides in the same place as satan and that's all in "this" realm. Satan is the carnal man in me and for me, it fits every pattern in Scripture that points to the fact that in man there are two forces . . .Paul even talks about it. People jump to the "renewed mind" passage, but tell me . . . do "you" have that renewed mind? I'm quite sure most will answer that to the affirmative. Which leads me to the next question then . . ."with" that renewed mind, are you "ever" tempted to sin . .EVER?? If you're not ever tempted, then I'd have to say that you're one of . . .well . . there is only other one that walked there and that would be Jesus himself. . . .and even HE was tempted . .which then leads to another thing . . .
Satan . . .this source of ALL evil . . .explain to me what Satan could possibly have that he could use to tempt Jesus with? If Jesus IS the Son of GOD . . .and satan is who we've all been taught he is, what could there possibly be in the pit of darkness that could for a moment tempt the brilliance and source of all light???
Any takers on that one???
Yep Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
AND as you suggest that the adversary(satan) is the carnal mind, then you are saying that Jesus when He was tempted had a carnal mind..... that is blasphemy, Jesus had NO SIN, and certainly having a carnal mind is surely sin.
That doesn't really fly either . . .there are just as many commentaries out there that can argue the same thought. I'm not all that interested in a commentary that someone wrote 50 or a hundred years ago. I want what God is saying in us "now".
Come on . . . if he didn't have to deal with carnality within, then he wasn't ALL flesh. Having a carnal mind merely is saying you are a physical being. We all have carnal minds . . .that's what we were seeing with him being tempted in the wilderness, it was showing that he was just as human as the next guy. But he used that experience as an example of how all humans can overcome the carnal nature within us.
Friend this aint no commentary Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
Now either you are going to believe the Bible or you are going to start your own religion. The carnal mind is sin in and of itself.
I haven't seen it said yet, so I'll go ahead and say it . . .I see Lucifer not to be satan as in the traditional head demon/devil . . .but I see it as a reference to Adam.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 10:26:28 PM
That Lucifer stuff is well silly.
If that stuff is so true it sure seems it should be important enough to have been mentioned at least just a hint in Genesis what man would be up against. Its like the tales and myths about ET, nothing at all said about that our sins would cause us to receive ET. in the entire OT.
No, the Lucifer of Isa.14:12 is a story theologians and orthodoxy feeds to those who have a great imagination.
You are always telling us how the OT consigns our bodies to dust and our souls to the grave. If ET is eternal separation from God, I could very well say the OT mentions ET. You will not leave my soul in hell, David says--which means it must look that way to some.
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 10:31:22 PM
I haven't seen it said yet, so I'll go ahead and say it . . .I see Lucifer not to be satan as in the traditional head demon/devil . . .but I see it as a reference to Adam.
That means you are Satan.
It also means I should keep my distance. :laughing7:
YES!!!! That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!! Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!! To the other!!! My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone! That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan! He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness. Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED. Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL. Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD. But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be. My spirit has to keep my mind in line. You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all. What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking. That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts. Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth. That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about. Our minds ARE the adversary nature. They "are" satanic in nature.
so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!
I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way. But for me, you walked right into it. That's exactly what I've been saying.
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 10:47:31 PM
YES!!!! That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!! Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!! To the other!!! My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone! That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan! He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness. Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED. Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL. Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD. But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be. My spirit has to keep my mind in line. You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all. What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking. That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts. Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth. That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about. Our minds ARE the adversary nature. They "are" satanic in nature.
so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!
I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way. But for me, you walked right into it. That's exactly what I've been saying.
As you know, I haven't agreed with you in the past on this issue. But, much of what you are saying makes sense to me.
Awesome! Be careful . . . you may be out numbered here though . . . :laughing7:
Well, here is my take on the whole thing.
Satan is a spiritual being that God uses to accomplish his purpose throughout the universe.
Everything in the universe is based on good and bad. We have a good God and a bad or evil Satan and why shouldn't it be that way since the whole universe is mixed with good and evil? This is how God planned it from the beginning. They,...God and Satan... are not in any warfare, God is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless God gives him the authority to do so.
I don't believe Lucifer is Satan, there is just no proof, also it says Lucifer was a MAN, king of Tyre.
I believe God planned every detail from the beginning and nothing can thwart his will, including Satan, because he is doing what God has given him to do.
If our minds are Satan then wouldn't this apply to Jesus also?
I would like to see proof from the Bible saying that Satan is our minds, there is no such scripture. There are too many scriptures showing that Satan is an individual .
It says that Satan ENTERED into Judas, if Satan was our minds wouldn't he have been there already?
Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that Satan was their father if he was their minds? This doesn't make any sense. Why didn't he just say you think with a Satan or adversary mind? Why did Jesus tell Satan to "GET BEHIND ME"? Why didn't he say "get out of me"?
CHB
Some of your questions can't be answered in the way that you would like. For one, you're still blending the two together when you ask why didn't Jesus say "get out of me" instead he said "get behind me". Actually, that should be my question to you. Why didn't Jesus say "leave me"? Instead it was merely "get behind me". The same exact thing he told Peter when Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus going to Jerusalem. It's an order to alignment. It's a picture of taking captive one's thoughts. "Get behind me" is a command for that which is before us, to get behind us, it's a command of submission. Same thing that our spirit is to do to our thoughts . . .take them captive.
Quote from: Nathan on September 16, 2011, 03:01:27 AM
Some of your questions can't be answered in the way that you would like. For one, you're still blending the two together when you ask why didn't Jesus say "get out of me" instead he said "get behind me". Actually, that should be my question to you. Why didn't Jesus say "leave me"? Instead it was merely "get behind me". The same exact thing he told Peter when Peter became an adversary to the purpose of Jesus going to Jerusalem. It's an order to alignment. It's a picture of taking captive one's thoughts. "Get behind me" is a command for that which is before us, to get behind us, it's a command of submission. Same thing that our spirit is to do to our thoughts . . .take them captive.
The implication is that our thoughts are not our own. They are the fiery darts thrown at us by the enemy for which cause we are to take every thought captive at the gate and examine it as friend or foe, as one might do in a military encampment. Paul uses military language when describing this. The thoughts are coming from 'out there,' and, as a result, their origin must be determined before they can be let into the camp--hence they are taken captive and interrogated.
exactly,Molly :thumbsup:
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 10:31:22 PM
I haven't seen it said yet, so I'll go ahead and say it . . .I see Lucifer not to be satan as in the traditional head demon/devil . . .but I see it as a reference to Adam.
Said that years ago. :bigGrin:
Quote from: CHB on September 16, 2011, 01:48:27 AM
Well, here is my take on the whole thing.
Satan is a spiritual being that God uses to accomplish his purpose throughout the universe.
Everything in the universe is based on good and bad. We have a good God and a bad or evil Satan and why shouldn't it be that way since the whole universe is mixed with good and evil? This is how God planned it from the beginning. They,...God and Satan... are not in any warfare, God is in control of Satan. Satan can do nothing unless God gives him the authority to do so.
I don't believe Lucifer is Satan, there is just no proof, also it says Lucifer was a MAN, king of Tyre.
I believe God planned every detail from the beginning and nothing can thwart his will, including Satan, because he is doing what God has given him to do.
If our minds are Satan then wouldn't this apply to Jesus also?
I would like to see proof from the Bible saying that Satan is our minds, there is no such scripture. There are too many scriptures showing that Satan is an individual .
It says that Satan ENTERED into Judas, if Satan was our minds wouldn't he have been there already?
Why did Jesus tell the Pharisees that Satan was their father if he was their minds? This doesn't make any sense. Why didn't he just say you think with a Satan or adversary mind? Why did Jesus tell Satan to "GET BEHIND ME"? Why didn't he say "get out of me"?
CHB
WELL SAID! Glory :bigGrin:
This is how, in my walk at this point, I have been given to understand the opponent and adversary.
The adversary, the serpent, the devil, and the dragon are our enemy. Man fights the enemy with spiritual warfare. We are instructed, after being called by the Father to His Son Jesus, and are re-born of the Spirit, to be aware of this enemy. Because the enemy is a spirit with powers allotted to its existence, to war as a roaring lion, a thief and a murderer, seeking whom it may devour.
Dust is the main meal, we are that dust, man is the quarry. Man was formed with spiritual weakness, for God's purpose, mans basic instinct is to disobey, miss the mark, man can not help himself. The enemy a spirit, and has been given the power and the ability to infiltrate the mind (where emotions have their beginnings) and work its (bad)spiritual abilities.
I reason that when mans mind was awakened by the voice of the enchanter, the prognosticator( a predictor) and when Gen 3:6 And, when the woman saw..." the work of the enemy began. The adversary as the serpent enchants, as the devil(traducer) one that exposes to shame or blame by means of falsehood and misrepresentation.
The dragon is in the sea(mass of humans) its in the rivers, which I reason are channels that are used to infiltrate.
We as souls re-generated born from above have been given power(dunamis) to overcome the enemy when we HEAR. Jesus said He did nothing of Himself, it had to come from the Father. So it is with us, that power to overcome only can be used when we HEAR from our elder brother.
The enemy exists and is to be reckoned with.
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 09:56:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 09:51:04 PM
I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.
Look what God said to Adam--
Where art thou?
Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Having been a parent, I am very familiar with the shock and horror these questions evoke.
What am I saying? The King is shocked and horrified if the knight gives the castle away to the King's enemy for a bowl of pottage or the hand of a pretty woman.
Imo the King wasn't shocked and horrified at all. The knight was talked to by the King as a little child. Asking retorical questions to make the child reflect on his/her own action. Every verse in which God speaks that has a question mark is a retorical question. Do you for example think God was unable to find Adam and Eve and therefore had to ask where the hid? Did God ask they ate from the tree because He didn't know?
My view is simple. It's impossible for an all knowing God to ask questions other than rethorical ones or with the intension of forcing the person(s) spoken to learn from the question.
So Godly questions basicly are statements.
:2c:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 16, 2011, 09:28:55 AM
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 09:56:41 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 15, 2011, 09:51:04 PM
I agree with what you wrote about the knight and the king. But imo a king only gives his castle to a knight if he thinks the knight isn't a traitor or would fail to protect the castle at the first incident/war.
God doesn't have that excuse because He knew the exact day and hour the knight would fail to protect the castle. So from that pov God allowed the knight to fail because He for example could have given the knight more training and better weapons.
You don't have to a agree but do you understand what I'm saying?
I understand what you are saying, but I disagree.
Look what God said to Adam--
Where art thou?
Who told thee that thou wast naked?
Hast thou eaten of the tree, whereof I commanded thee that thou shouldest not eat?
Having been a parent, I am very familiar with the shock and horror these questions evoke.
What am I saying? The King is shocked and horrified if the knight gives the castle away to the King's enemy for a bowl of pottage or the hand of a pretty woman.
Imo the King wasn't shocked and horrified at all. The knight was talked to by the King as a little child. Asking retorical questions to make the child reflect on his/her own action. Every verse in which God speaks that has a question mark is a retorical question. Do you for example think God was unable to find Adam and Eve and therefore had to ask where the hid? Did God ask they ate from the tree because He didn't know?
My view is simple. It's impossible for an all knowing God to ask questions other than rethorical ones or with the intension of forcing the person(s) spoken to learn from the question.
So Godly questions basicly are statements.
:2c:
I used to think that. I don't really think that anymore. The text doesn't say they tried to hide from God. It says they hid from God. That means they could. When they fell into flesh, they were cut off from God. Kind of like out of mind, out of sight. [We later see this with Jesus on the cross who asks the same question: Where are you?] The qiuestions he asks them serve no purpose other than show God's surprise and horror. I think feeling cut off from God can go both ways without some type of intervention. Hence the priesthood was developed, starting with Abel.
Molly, you really think people can hide from God? Where I go there you will find me, if I go to the depths of hell you will be with me. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither height, nor depth...
He upholds all things by His mighty word. For from him(past), through him (present), and to him(future) are all things. He declares the end from the beginning, he declared they would hide from him after they sinned, which he planned from the beginning, for us to experience good and evil.
Did the serpent sneak into the garden? interrupting God's plan A, he just wasn't quite God enough to foresee it, or that devil is just too smart?
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 16, 2011, 01:41:44 PM
Molly, you really think people can hide from God? Where I go there you will find me, if I go to the depths of hell you will be with me. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither height, nor depth...
He upholds all things by His mighty word. For from him(past), through him (present), and to him(future) are all things. He declares the end from the beginning, he declared they would hide from him after they sinned, which he planned from the beginning, for us to experience good and evil.
Did the serpent sneak into the garden? interrupting God's plan A, he just wasn't quite God enough to foresee it, or that devil is just too smart?
I just quoted that verse lol.
But, the saints are not hiding from God, they are searching for him.
Yes, I think we can hide from God and he can hide from us. I don't see it as a permanent situation, though.
Notice how God sends Cain out of his presence.
If we are not in relationship with God, we are the [walking] dead.
The serpent did what he did in the garden without God's permission. Hence, the punishment.
whew! some very fine discernment here. I think that is why He sent His son 'the word of God,come in flesh' to seek that which was 'lost'...
you shall be called searched for,sought after. Lost sheep....you once were alienated and enemies Col 1;2 .
I think the 'mind of the beast" alienates us from communion/relationship with Him
If we could actually be hidden from God then we would cease to exist. He is in all things, and upholds all things.
Sure they can hide. And yes the text clearly states they did. The real quetion is how effective is it against a God with limitless skills?
YHWH's intelect, knowledge and powers are only limited by 2 stone age people hiding behind a bush.... Something like that?
Never saw a small child playing hide and seek. They walk 2 feet away and hold their hands before their eyes. The child is now completely hidden from the parent that has to seek. The parent plays along and searches the whole house. "Mollly, Molly where art thou?" Needless to say Molly was very happy having outsmarted her parent.
:laughing7:
Quote from: sheila on September 16, 2011, 02:12:56 PM
whew! some very fine discernment here. I think that is why He sent His son 'the word of God,come in flesh' to seek that which was 'lost'...
you shall be called searched for,sought after. Lost sheep....you once were alienated and enemies Col 1;2 .
I think the 'mind of the beast" alienates us from communion/relationship with Him
:thumbsup:
For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living.
--Rom 14:9
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 16, 2011, 02:14:42 PM
If we could actually be hidden from God then we would cease to exist. He is in all things, and upholds all things.
:HeartThrob: :thumbsup:
Absolutely, when even in our darkest time in this life, be that fear, loss of a loved one, trying not to be with God, backsliding, it makes NO difference, HE is ALWAYS there. To think or reason that God is not right where you are all the time is not understanding His Word.
Psa 139:7
Whither could I go from Your spirit, And whither could I run away from Your presence?[/u]
Psa 139:8 If I should climb to the heavens, You are there, And should I make my berth in the unseen, behold,
You are there."
Psa 139:9 Should I wear the wings of dawn, Should I tabernacle in the hindmost sea,
Psa 139:10 :boyheart:Your hand would guide me, And
Your right hand, it would hold me."Psa 139:11 If I said, Surely darkness, it snuffed me up, And night is belted about me,
Psa 139:12
Even darkness, it is not darkening to You, And the night, as the day, is giving light; Darkness is as light."
Quote from: Molly on September 15, 2011, 10:32:00 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 15, 2011, 10:26:28 PM
That Lucifer stuff is well silly.
If that stuff is so true it sure seems it should be important enough to have been mentioned at least just a hint in Genesis what man would be up against. Its like the tales and myths about ET, nothing at all said about that our sins would cause us to receive ET. in the entire OT.
No, the Lucifer of Isa.14:12 is a story theologians and orthodoxy feeds to those who have a great imagination.
You are always telling us how the OT consigns our bodies to dust and our souls to the grave. If ET is eternal separation from God, I could very well say the OT mentions ET. You will not leave my soul in hell, David says--which means it must look that way to some.
"You are always telling us how the OT consigns our bodies to dust and our souls to the grave." Molly
Now I dont nothing about souls to the grave thing, but THE BIBLE, actually it was the LORD GOD who spoke.
Gen 3:19 In the sweat of thy face shalt thou eat bread, till thou return unto the ground; for out of it wast thou taken:
for dust thou art, and unto dust shalt thou return. " If ET is eternal separation from God, I could very well say the OT mentions ET." Molly
Who is talking about ET, I dont even believe in ET?" You will not leave my soul in hell, David says--which means it must look that way to some." Molly
You are referring to: Psa 16:9 Therefore, hath my heart rejoiced, and mine honour exulted, Yea, my flesh, shall settle down securely;
I read this as to saying, my flesh[body] will go back to dust. Psa 16:10 For thou wilt not abandon my soul to hades, neither wilt thou suffer thy man of lovingkindness, to see corruption:
And, thou wilt not abandon my living[ life] to the unseen[the grave] Psa 16:11 Thou wilt cause me to know, the path of life,—Fulness of joys before thee, Pleasures at thy right hand evermore
And this I would reason is the resurrection.
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 10:47:31 PM
YES!!!! That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!! Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!! To the other!!! My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone! That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan! He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness. Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED. Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL. Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD. But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be. My spirit has to keep my mind in line. You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all. What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking. That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts. Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth. That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about. Our minds ARE the adversary nature. They "are" satanic in nature.
so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!
I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way. But for me, you walked right into it. That's exactly what I've been saying.
"so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!""
I write this with peace in my heart.
Nathan there have been many who have come to that conclusion, that our carnal mind is the adversary[satan], that cannot be so. For that to be true Jesus would have had a carnal mind and He did not, for He knew NO SIN.
Now the adversary will use our minds to work out the evil alloted to the enemy. I reason that our mind is a stronghold, when man is called and is reborn, man is a new creature[all things become new] with the mind of Christ which will mature be complete as we grow in Him and He in us. Now.... the enemy has to
attempt to overcome mind of Christ. Which will be of no avail.
Quote from: Molly on September 16, 2011, 02:01:43 PM
Quote from: redhotmagma on September 16, 2011, 01:41:44 PM
Molly, you really think people can hide from God? Where I go there you will find me, if I go to the depths of hell you will be with me. Nothing can separate us from the love of God, neither height, nor depth...
He upholds all things by His mighty word. For from him(past), through him (present), and to him(future) are all things. He declares the end from the beginning, he declared they would hide from him after they sinned, which he planned from the beginning, for us to experience good and evil.
Did the serpent sneak into the garden? interrupting God's plan A, he just wasn't quite God enough to foresee it, or that devil is just too smart?
I just quoted that verse lol.
But, the saints are not hiding from God, they are searching for him.
Yes, I think we can hide from God and he can hide from us. I don't see it as a permanent situation, though.
Notice how God sends Cain out of his presence.
If we are not in relationship with God, we are the [walking] dead.
The serpent did what he did in the garden without God's permission. Hence, the punishment.
"Notice how God sends Cain out of his presence." Molly
God did not send Cain anywhere, Cain went out from the Face of God.
Gen 4:14 Behold, drive me do You out today off the
surface of the ground, and from Your face shall I be concealed....
Gen 4:16 And
Cain goeth out from before Jehovah
"The serpent did what he did in the garden without God's permission. Hence, the punishment." Molly
So what you are saying is that the serpent got past God? Out smarted the Creator! God the Creator lost control of His creation, just enough for the serpent [Gen 1:25
And God maketh the beast of the earth after its kind, and the cattle after their kind,
and every creeping thing of the ground after its kind, and God seeth that it is good.]\
That creeping thing out smarted its creator. I know that the serpent of Gen.3 represents the enemy and is not a "snake."
That stuff does not matter, that serpent was not out of God's permission; In Job the adversary was WAITING FOR PERMISSION, the adversary[satan] is TOLD what to do. Does one think that its any different in Gen.3??
That punishment you speak of was man's first learning step, man NOW knew GOOD from BAD and man was ready to start on that path called life and as you stated man became the walking dead, walking towards Christ to receive life...and that more abundantly!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 16, 2011, 09:33:43 PM
Quote from: Nathan on September 15, 2011, 10:47:31 PM
YES!!!! That's what I've been trying to tell you all along!! Well . . .not the keep your distance part . . .that's entirely up to you . . .but YES!! To the other!!! My carnal mind IS SATAN . . .it is of an adversary nature just because it's flesh and bone! That's why Jesus turned to Peter and called him satan! He was talking to the same power-source that he, himself dealt with in his own life in the wilderness. Peter's carnal mind could only hear that Jesus said he was going to Jerusalem to DIE and be BURIED. Even though Jesus clearly said it, Peter didn't hear AND BE RESURRECTED because his mind never got past the DEATH and BURIAL. Because just as Paul stated . . .his/our mind is always AT ENMITY AGAINST GOD.
That's what the "adversary" is . . .it's the ENMITY against GOD. But that verse goes on to say not only is my mind "not" in line with God . . .it isn't designed to be. My spirit has to keep my mind in line. You don't teach someone to fall down . . .that's a trait born in us all. What they need to be taught is how to sit up, stand up, get up . . .our minds have to be trained how to walk "up"-right . . . .literally and spiritually speaking. That's why Scripture tells us that we must TAKE CAPTIVE our thoughts. Because when given the first opportunity to do something on it's own, our mind will automatically turn toward the desires of the flesh rather than into the light of Truth. That's what "a dog returning to it's vomit" is all about. Our minds ARE the adversary nature. They "are" satanic in nature.
so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!
I'm not sure if you said that tongue-in-cheek, or if you're actually seeing it to be that way. But for me, you walked right into it. That's exactly what I've been saying.
"so yes, and absolutely . . .my mind IS satan!!!""
I write this with peace in my heart.
Nathan there have been many who have come to that conclusion, that our carnal mind is the adversary[satan], that cannot be so. For that to be true Jesus would have had a carnal mind and He did not, for He knew NO SIN.
Now the adversary will use our minds to work out the evil alloted to the enemy. I reason that our mind is a stronghold, when man is called and is reborn, man is a new creature[all things become new] with the mind of Christ which will mature be complete as we grow in Him and He in us. Now.... the enemy has to attempt to overcome mind of Christ. Which will be of no avail.
I just put this up for discussion as I am undecided on this subject. But, if Jesus was truly God and truly man then he indeed had to deal with the carnal. If not, he didn't really go through what we went through. He had nothing within himself that was sin, yet his body spoke to him. His body must have tried to take control of his spirit, or he didn't experience the trials we face. Therefore I really have no issue anymore with thinking that Jesus had to fight the carnal nature built into the flesh. As Paul said, that isn't us...that is our flesh.
(Heb. 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL.
If the Devil is our minds would someone please explain the above scripture. Is Jesus destroying his own mind? Does our minds have the power over death? If our minds is Satan and if Jesus' death destroyed the power over death, then all of our minds would be destroyed. :mshock: :dontknow:
CHB
satan/devil..is the liar that deceives the mind of man....when the spirit of truth comes...it frees man's mind from the deception of the liar......
two things to be discerned....the liar that deceives the entire inhabited earth....man's mind deceived....all in Adam died
and spirit of truth that free's man's mind...mind of Christ...all in Christ raised to life
don't call the deceived mind the liar spirit...discern the spirits...lest you become spiritually ill/death discern the body of each...
examine the 'works' of the contrast good/evil spirits....good spirit..truth,love,peace,joy,charity,faith............evil spirit 'works" liar,hate,strife,torment,greed,faithless
Jesus Christ came to break up 'the works' of the devil in the minds/hearts of men.......
it is the judgement of spirits for the works done in the body..whether good or evil[only God is 'good'...so the 'good' seed is the spirit seed/progency
of God,sown in the earth.]
Man ate from the TOKOGAE...symbolizing a mixture of these contrast spirits in man.....Christ appears apart from sin...and seperates seed......
evil seed works 'kills good seed" chokes it out.....like tares over-running a feild..... bundled and burned..........
good seed produces 30 fold,60,100 and is gathered into storehouse.
The seperating judgement of Christ...is the dividing of good from evil........in the good/evil mix tree of death.....the root in the earth of the evil seed..
is of the spirit of satan...the root and offspring of Jesse...is Christ...even the goodness of God shown unto us.
Quote from: CHB on September 18, 2011, 06:13:58 PM
(Heb. 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL.
If the Devil is our minds would someone please explain the above scripture. Is Jesus destroying his own mind? Does our minds have the power over death? If our minds is Satan and if Jesus' death destroyed the power over death, then all of our minds would be destroyed. :mshock: :dontknow:
CHB
I don't believe the devil is our minds. I believe it's possible that satan is a spirit that is opposed to God, and God's will. That indeed has the power of death. When I lived life by my terms... stood at the edge of the abyss and almost died. My carnal need to make me the god of my own heart, brought me death spiritually, and nearly brought me death physically.
Paul himself spoke about when we sin, it is no longer us sinning. Therefore, there is this seperation...this body...this carnal that is outside of the spirit...and it speaks to us...it vies for control. If Jesus didn't have to fight this...then did he really go through what we went through?
The default position [ok there are exceptions] seems to be cut off from God.
I think if I could say the default adult position, it would probably be more accurate.
Thus we were once children of wrath, enemies of God, at enmity with God, and like Sheila says, the whole world is deceived.
[You can fool all of the people some of the time].
It's not a good situation.
We are just vessels meant to carry a spirit.
What spirit we carry makes all the difference--but we will be slaves to one or the other.
And, yes, Micah, I believe the Nachash did what he did in the garden without God's permission. We don't see God punishing Satan for going after Job. Satan was just evil with Job, but with Adam, he was unspeakably evil.
[Romans 1:1,] "Paul, A slave of Jesus Christ, called an apostle, separated unto the gospel of God..."
So satan can approach the throne of God literally, and enter into the purifying light . . .where light is, darkness cannot exist . . .unless it's satain, in that case, darkness is not affected by light . . .
Can we approach God and complain, yet not change?
I think its possible. So if we can do it, maybe that's how the devil does it.
But from experience I can say that I have met God on one occasion and His power/glory was to much to bare, fell as dead, but I could have stayed there for ages on account of the peace. But when it comes to visions of God, I can complain to God and be angry with him, without fear. So I think it might depend on whether God is willing to grant an audience and hear what the accuser has to say.
Father knows what is hidden in darkness...just as He knows what is hidden in Christ. When the accusor of the brethern is cast down......
all mankind is raised up in Christ....yes....the accusors fall...is the raising up. O' death where is thy sting.?.....I shall be thy plagues.
who knows,maybe you will have the priviledge of tossing the 'evil tools' into the LOF yourself.
when the time came to wean my little grandson....I had him to fill his bottle with rocks...and drop it into the lake from the dock
and watch it sink out of sight.
Amazing discussion here, and it goes right to the heart of something I'm dealing with in my life, with my son.
Because of having ADD, he was tormented by others in school, viciously so. It has severely damaged him emotionally and I daresay spiritually. He has a LOT of anger issues, does believe there is a creator, but he flatly states he hates God. His reason? If God is truly all powerful, all knowing, all seeing, then why would He be so cruel as to create evil? It is a contradiction he cannot accept or excuse in his mind. He blames God for creating an evil world with an evil Satan and evil people.
Try to tell him it was not created so in the beginning, he immediately counters with this, that either God is God and created everything, including evil, or God is NOT God, not all powerful all knowing, etc. God created Satan / Lucifer / the devil, whatever name one wishes to tag him with, so God had to have created the evil in Satan, one way or another God created and allowed evil to exist, thus thousands of years of agony and suffering.
I am honestly at a loss in how to even begin to approach this with him, and frankly, I just tell him that I do not have all the answers, that all I know is God does love us all, and there are simply things we cannot at present understand.
So I am reading with interest the different views you are sharing here, and hoping that maybe there is an answer that does not come across as trite or self serving. It's tough to deal with this, but he is not the only person who sees God this way, and maybe this is something we do need to dig deeper into to be better prepared with answers for those who don't see our Father as we do?
:2c:
The subject is difficult to say the least for an adult as compared to a young person. God created evil
Isa 45:7 Former of light and Creator of darkness, Maker of good and Creator of evil. I, Yahweh Elohim, made all of these things."
God created evil[the negative] in the beginning as a tool to bring man to know His Love[the positive] It is hard to grasp but without a negative, positive would have nothing to overcome. His thought are not our thoughts.
Isa 55:8 For, my thoughts, are not, your thoughts, Nor, your ways, my ways,—Declareth Yahweh.
1Co 1:25 because the foolishness of God is wiser than men, and the weakness of God is stronger than men;
It is a spiritual war
2Co 10:3 For though we walk in the flesh, we do not war according to the flesh
2Co 10:4 (for the weapons of our warfare are not of the flesh, but mighty before God to the casting down of strongholds),
2Co 10:5 casting down imaginations, and every high thing that is exalted against the knowledge of God, and bringing every thought into captivity to the obedience of Christ;
2Co 10:6 and being in readiness to avenge all disobedience, when your obedience shall be made full.
Probably did not help much, but these are things we need to understand to walk the path.
Lindy few threads on evil. As a summary I can say that people on this forum can't reach agreement on that topic.
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/i_make_peace_and_create_evil_not_any_more._6497.msg70038.html#msg70038
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/the_problem_evil_8837.msg108328.html#msg108328
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/christian_life/problem_evil._1550.msg14591.html#msg14591
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/judgement_and_punishment/if_god_created_evil_then_why_is_he_obligated_allow_it_eternal_victory_6168.msg64346.html#msg64346
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/discussions_universal_salvation/why_god_allows_evil_george_macdonald_3502.msg36631.html#msg36631
http://www.tentmaker.org/forum/bible_threatenings_explained/why_god_yes_god_created_evil._8752.msg106247.html#msg106247
Quote from: CHB on September 18, 2011, 06:13:58 PM
(Heb. 2:14) Forasmuch then as the children are partakers of flesh and blood, he also himself likewise took part of the same; that through death he might DESTROY HIM THAT HAD THE POWER OF DEATH, THAT IS, THE DEVIL.
If the Devil is our minds would someone please explain the above scripture. Is Jesus destroying his own mind? Does our minds have the power over death? If our minds is Satan and if Jesus' death destroyed the power over death, then all of our minds would be destroyed. :mshock: :dontknow:
CHB
ACVMatt 2541 Then he will also say to those at the left hand, Depart from me, ye accursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his agents.
The verse speaks about 1 devil and many agents/angels/messengers.
If the devil misguides people in a way he is in their heads. But not literally.
About believers it's said they are "ïn Jesus". ===> Mind of Jesus
Isn't the opposite being "in the devil"? ===> Mind of the devil
So I think Jesus wasn't destroying His own mind. Besides of that I think purging the mind would be a better translation. Getting rid of the lies.
When Jesus was led into the wilderness the devil tried to enter Jesus' mind. If Jesus would have taken the offer of the kingdoms or any other suggestion then Jesus' mind would have been invaded.
Likely not the best choice of words but I hope you get the message :laughing7:
So I think the devil is in peoples minds (in the form of false thoughts etc) But in case of Jesus the devil never entered so no need to destroy/purge His mind.
:2c:
"So I think the devil is in peoples minds (in the form of false thoughts etc) But in case of Jesus the devil never entered so no need to destroy/purge His mind." WW
I believe that is pretty close. Still I contend that the adversary is able to use man's mind, that was the weak link in Gen. 3 was it not?
The weak link in Gen 3 was Adam's love for his wife.
1 Timothy 2:14
King James Version (KJV)
14And Adam was not deceived, but the woman being deceived was in the transgression.
8 Above all, love each other deeply, because love covers over a multitude of sins. [1 Pet 4:8]
and that shows the utter sinfulness of sin.....that it slays man by that which is good. any of you remember the movie 'the GREEN MILE"?......
The Green Mile was a really good movie.
That black guy on dead-row (don't remember his name) absorbed illness of other people and it came out of his mouth as black smoke or flies IIRC.
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.(Co 2:8)
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
(Col 2:18-19)
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ(from 2Co 10:3-6)
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realmsAnd do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. (Romans 12:1,2)
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.(James 3:13-17)
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.(2Ti 2:24-26)
Quote from: eaglesway on September 23, 2011, 12:02:49 AM
See to it that no one takes you captive through philosophy and empty deception, according to the tradition of men, according to the elementary principles of the world, rather than according to Christ.(Co 2:8)
Let no one keep defrauding you of your prize by delighting in self-abasement and the worship of the angels, taking his stand on visions he has seen, inflated without cause by his fleshly mind, and not holding fast to the head, from whom the entire body, being supplied and held together by the joints and ligaments, grows with a growth which is from God.
(Col 2:18-19)
We are destroying speculations and every lofty thing raised up against the knowledge of God, and we are taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ(from 2Co 10:3-6)
We fight not against flesh and blood, but against principalities and powers, the rulers of the hosts of wickedness in the heavenly realmsAnd do not be conformed to this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind, that you may prove what is that good and acceptable and perfect will of God. (Romans 12:1,2)
Who is wise and understanding among you? Let him show by good conduct that his works are done in the meekness of wisdom. But if you have bitter envy and self-seeking in your hearts, do not boast and lie against the truth. This wisdom does not descend from above, but is earthly, sensual, demonic. For where envy and self-seeking exist, confusion and every evil thing are there. But the wisdom that is from above is first pure, then peaceable, gentle, willing to yield, full of mercy and good fruits, without partiality and without hypocrisy. Now the fruit of righteousness is sown in peace by those who make peace.(James 3:13-17)
And a servant of the Lord must not quarrel but be gentle to all, able to teach, patient, in humility correcting those who are in opposition, if God perhaps will grant them repentance, so that they may know the truth, and that they may come to their senses and escape the snare of the devil, having been taken captive by him to do his will.(2Ti 2:24-26)
:HeartThrob: :bigGrin: :ty: :happyclap: :happyclap:
Great movie the Green Mile! Have the book as well. It was a movie and a book written by a guy who has a great imagination, and that imagination is used to impose mostly evil. Mr. King writes for money and thus he needs to write for the interest of the masses. Good and bad. How about the "Tommy Knockers?" I gave his books away, I kept the Green Mile, he did stumble onto a truth. I wonder how many who read the book or saw the movie heard from the Father? Or was it just an entertainment vehicle because King knew that he would make money hitting the ball to the good and the bad? I am a cynic when I am entertained by mans playing in the sand.......and I do not apologize. :HeartThrob: :bigGrin:
Which is more susceptible to the adversary/satan/serpent/dragon/devil in getting man to be incited/tempted to follow his desires and sin/miss the mark.....the soul or the mind?
re ww'so I think Jesus wasn't destroying His own mind.... :thumbsup: I will put enmity between the serpents seed and the seed of the woman....
the serpent will bruise his heel...AND HE WILL CRUSH THE SERPENTS HEAD.........breaking up the mind of the serpent in men....what was
this mind of the serpent in men..shown at His ministry? Hypocrisy,condemnation,greed,malice.arrogance..judging law, heaping up heavy loads on men
impossible to bear.Saying,but not doing 'eletism,harshness,prestigeselfishness. A general lack of LOVE AND RESPECT for both God and man by religious leaders who sat
in Moses' seat respecters of men if to their advantage.rejoicing in lies
The mind of Christ was honesty integrity,love and obediance to Father,truth,love of brothers, inclination of to what was right and just,humility..self-sacrificing
for the good of all
What other vehicle than man's mind can the enemy use? Jesus, when taken to the wilderness was tempted by offering "something" that only a mind could would find enticing.
Jesus with stood.... He was as they say above the law.
How can or does the enemy entice man to doubt, to consider to do a thing that would break a law? What other part of the human being other that man's would consider his own greed, self satisfaction, or want?
Yes, the adversary knows that the mind of man is the channel.
The adversary is not the carnal mind, no the enemy uses man's mind as a channel to do the work.
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 24, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
What other vehicle than man's mind can the enemy use? Jesus, when taken to the wilderness was tempted by offering "something" that only a mind could would find enticing.
Jesus with stood.... He was as they say above the law.
How can or does the enemy entice man to doubt, to consider to do a thing that would break a law? What other part of the human being other that man's would consider his own greed, self satisfaction, or want?
Yes, the adversary knows that the mind of man is the channel.
The adversary is not the carnal mind, no the enemy uses man's mind as a channel to do the work.
Amen!!
CHB
Quote from: CHB on September 24, 2011, 06:28:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 24, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
What other vehicle than man's mind can the enemy use? Jesus, when taken to the wilderness was tempted by offering "something" that only a mind could would find enticing.
Jesus with stood.... He was as they say above the law.
How can or does the enemy entice man to doubt, to consider to do a thing that would break a law? What other part of the human being other that man's would consider his own greed, self satisfaction, or want?
Yes, the adversary knows that the mind of man is the channel.
The adversary is not the carnal mind, no the enemy uses man's mind as a channel to do the work.
Amen!!
CHB
Satan can channel through the carnal mind
but we have the mind of Christ.[1 Cor 2:16]
Quote from: Molly on September 24, 2011, 08:26:37 PM
Quote from: CHB on September 24, 2011, 06:28:28 PM
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 24, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
What other vehicle than man's mind can the enemy use? Jesus, when taken to the wilderness was tempted by offering "something" that only a mind could would find enticing.
Jesus with stood.... He was as they say above the law.
How can or does the enemy entice man to doubt, to consider to do a thing that would break a law? What other part of the human being other that man's would consider his own greed, self satisfaction, or want?
Yes, the adversary knows that the mind of man is the channel.
The adversary is not the carnal mind, no the enemy uses man's mind as a channel to do the work.
1Co 3:3 For ye are yet carnal: for whereas there is among you envying, and strife, and divisions, are ye not carnal, and walk as men?
Amen!!
CHB
Satan can channel through the carnal mind
but we have the mind of Christ.[1 Cor 2:16]
A haughty spirit goes before a fall. A proud heart. A wicked soul. Etc.
As I see it the temple is a picture of man. The holy of holies is place of intercession and- "we have a new and living way into the holy of holies in the heavenlies, our hearts sprinkled clean from an evil consciousness and our bodies washed with pure water". In the holy place is the lampstand-(spirit, and God breathed the breath of life into Adam) and the table of the bread of presence/koinonea(This is my body, broken for you). In the outer court we are still carnal, living for the flesh, but there is an abundance of sacrifice(i write to you little children, because your sins are forgiven). We move from the outer court to the inner court when we wash in the bronze laver(symbol willing death, free will offering of our lives in the body-Romans 12:1,2"Yield your body as a living sacrifice) at the entrance of the holy place (sits on the backs of the oxen, symbol of the will and strength of man) which is about becoming disciples and beginning a process of sanctification......"by the sanctification of the Spirit and the washing of the water of the Word". Worship in Spirit and truth. We no longer live in and for the body. We are ascending, "Set your affections on things above where Christ is seated at the right hand of God"-in other words, always looking to the holy of holies. Every step is a breath(spirit) into dirt(body) raising up the new creation, "transformed by the renewing of your mind"...."strengthened with might by His Spirit in your inner man" Lo! a living soul :o). In the inner court enlightenment from the Lampstand(spirit of wisdom and revelation in the knowledge of God) and koinonea at the Table of showbread(bread/body of Christ) further prepare us for intercessory ministry at the golden altar of incense(Gethsamne, nevertheless not my will but thine, a broken and a contrite heart) where the blood of a spotless firstborn Lamb(pure spirit) was sprinkled in preparation for the entrance within the veil, ministry from within the holy of holies. From within the holy of holies, as ministers of reconciliation, we see the release of the Spirit as God "meets us" in the true Pentecost. We are priests of God in Christ. Ambassadors in chains. Pressing on towards the mark of the prize of the high call of God in Christ.
I say all this only because, even as the enemies of Israel destroyed the temple. Even as the abomination of desolation exalts itself in the holy of holies. I believe the adversary seeks to trespass into the very inner sanctum of mans heart, spirit, soul and body. We are wheels within wheels full of eyes round about, fearfully and wonderfully made. The enemy seeks to twist the beauty and quench the spirit of grace. Therefore, "guard carefully your heart, for from thence spring the issues of life." All things are lawful but not all things are expedient- especially if we measure expedience by our being apprehended by the grace of God and becoming all that we are called to be as sons and daughters of God. The adversary came at Jesus in every way- the desires of the flesh and the pleasures of the mind..... the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes and the pride of life. He attacks us spiritually, physically, emotionally and intellctually. So above all else, we keep our heart in Jesus, for from the abundance of the heart the mouth speaks. As it is written, "The prince of this world comes, but he has nothing in me."
Create in me a clean heart, O God,
And renew a steadfast spirit within me.
Do not cast me away from Your presence
And do not take Your Holy Spirit from me.
Restore to me the joy of Your salvation
And sustain me with a willing spirit.
Then I will teach transgressors Your ways,
And sinners will be converted to You.
Deliver me from bloodguiltiness, O God, the God of my salvation;
Then my tongue will joyfully sing of Your righteousness.
O Lord, open my lips,
That my mouth may declare Your praise.
For You do not delight in sacrifice, otherwise I would give it;
You are not pleased with burnt offering.
The sacrifices of God are a broken spirit;
A broken and a contrite heart, O God, You will not despise.
By Your favor do good to Zion;
Build the walls of Jerusalem.
Then You will delight in righteous sacrifices,
In burnt offering and whole burnt offering;
Then young bulls will be offered on Your altar.
I really like that! But, I did not understand the opening, "A haughty spirit goes before a fall. A proud heart. A wicked soul. Etc."
Just examples of how the enemy can flow through any part of a human if there is a breach in the defenses(heart, soul, spirit).
Like a city that is broken into and without walls Is a man who has no control over his spirit.
(Pro 25:28)
"Those from among you will rebuild the ancient ruins; You will raise up the age-old foundations; And you will be called the repairer of the breach, The restorer of the streets in which to dwell.
(Isa 58:12)
Sometimes the breach is caused(specifically, individually) by trauma in childhood, sometimes by addiction or drug use, sometimes by lust or greed......So many things, but all of it flows out of the breach between Adam and the Father, "As in Adam all die...."
Jesus came to heal "the breach"...... We are called to the same ministry. As we receive healing we become conduits of healing. This is all the word "saved" means. Sozo gr. to heal delivered, saved, healed breaches repaired, life swallows up death, light consumes darkness, harmony fills chaos. Awwww man, its just soooo beautiful.
The Lord is recovering all, spirit, soul and body- three measures of meal, by the incorruptible seed, which is the leaven of the kingdom
"....so also in Christ will all be made alive, but each in his own order".
Jesus is the firstfruits from the dead, we are like a wave offering,
In Him also we have obtained an inheritance, having been predestined according to His purpose who works all things after the counsel of His will, to the end that we who were the first to hope in Christ would be to the praise of His glory.(Eph 1:11,12)
In the exercise of His will He brought us forth by the word of truth, so that we would be a kind of first fruits among His creatures. (Jas 1:18)
This restoration, that has begun in us, the redeemed, is abounding and will abound through us to the whole creation.
Now, the battle rages within us and without, but in the future we will be completely recovered, body soul and spirit, a kingdom of priests of God and the Lamb.
For the creation was subjected to futility, not willingly, but because of Him who subjected it, in hope that the creation itself also will be set free from its slavery to corruption into the freedom of the glory of the children of God. :bgdance:
For we know that the whole creation groans and suffers the pains of childbirth together until now :HeartThrob: .
And not only this, but also we ourselves, having the first fruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting eagerly for our adoption as sons, the redemption of our body. :first:
For in hope we have been saved, but hope that is seen is not hope; for who hopes for what he already sees? But if we hope for what we do not see, with perseverance we wait eagerly for it. :clock:
In the same way the Spirit also helps our weakness; for we do not know how to pray as we should, but the Spirit Himself intercedes for us with groanings too deep for words; and He who searches the hearts knows what the mind of the Spirit is, because He intercedes for the saints according to the will of God. :Pray:
And we know that God causes all things to work together for good to those who love God, to those who are called according to His purpose. :2thumbs:
For those whom He foreknew, He also predestined to become conformed to the image of His Son, so that He would be the firstborn among many brethren; and these whom He predestined, He also called; and these whom He called, He also justified; and these whom He justified, He also glorified. :dsunny:
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? :icon_king: :icon_queen:
(Rom 8:20-32)
I would and could enjoy( and did) a preaching such as that 8 days a week. Praise the Lord! :HeartThrob: :happyclap: :happyclap: :happyclap:
very,very good post. Counsel of the Holy spirit for sure. It is wise to follow it and take it to heart. Wisdom from above,for sure :thumbsup:
"A new commandment I give to you, that you love one another, even as I have loved you, that you also love one another. "By this all men will know that you are My disciples, if you have love for one another."
(Joh 13:34-35)
As the love of God is exalted in our midst, the inheritance resrved in the heavenly realms will manifest- the heavenly Jerusalem, adorned as a Bride, in white linen, "coming down" out of the heavens- the Wedding Supper of the Lamb! Praise God brothers and sisters!!!!!
The King's daughter is all glorious within;
Her clothing is interwoven with gold.
She will be led to the King in embroidered work;
The virgins, her companions who follow her, Will be brought to You.
They will be led forth with gladness and rejoicing; They will enter into the King's palace
. In place of your fathers will be your sons;
You shall make them princes in all the earth.
I will cause Your name to be remembered in all generations;
Therefore the peoples will give You thanks forever and ever.
(Psa 45:13-17)
AMEN!
Quote from: micah7:9 on September 24, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
What other vehicle than man's mind can the enemy use? Jesus, when taken to the wilderness was tempted by offering "something" that only a mind could would find enticing.
Jesus with stood.... He was as they say above the law.
How can or does the enemy entice man to doubt, to consider to do a thing that would break a law? What other part of the human being other that man's would consider his own greed, self satisfaction, or want?
Yes, the adversary knows that the mind of man is the channel.
The adversary is not the carnal mind, no the enemy uses man's mind as a channel to do the work.
Negative thoughts and entering soul to cause evil heavy emotions - at constant rate.
I think there is a difference between demonic attack and just being weak minded. Demonic attack can weaken even the toughest of minds and render an army veteran weak, but Jesus and knowing the saints rights and authority stops the attack. But some ministers etc get vicious prolonged attacks that can last for months or years.
IF someone is weak minded, the bible shows to read the word of God and be nourished on the word and to cut wood for exercise.
I think this is why most ministers are middle aged, because they have been feeding on the word for a fair time.
Though some have been over feeding it seems on glance at their belly :icon_jokercolor:
TT, Cut wood for exercise? lol
Where is that?
Hey TT
:thumbsup: it's a whole differnt ballgame when you have one thorn in your flesh, or a legion/horde overwhelming you. That's when you get
the Jeffrey Dahmers,serial killers,totally insane. Not your everyday sinner man
I think just as all truth is spiritual, all darkness is mental . . .meaning that it boils down to the spirit warring against the flesh . . .the natural mind. It can be influenced greatly by either carnality or by Spirituality . . .but it's ALWAYS, at the core, it's always between spiritual truth of God in us and carnal influences also in us . . .both play out on the field of our mind. It's not what goes in us that defiles us, it's what comes out of us. What comes out of us is the evidence of what is in control within us.
I believe that's what the crown of thorns Jesus took to the cross was all about. I also see demonology is much more mental activity, be it in the subconscious realm of things, but I think again, the greater majority of our conflict is not from an outside force trying to get in, but it's what's already in us, "part" of us trying to battle against the light in us. Again, some of it's in our awareness, and some of it isn't. Ever have terrible dreams and wonder why? Did they originate in God? Or in our own "minds"?
The guy that had the legion of demonic activity in him . . .at the end of the story, the last thing it states was, he was clothed and in a "sound mind". Ever wonder why it would include that? Why the reference to what his frame of mind was, unless it had much to do with what was going on before-hand with his mental state. I think there is much more power and influence to the mind of man than we give credit for. And for me, the reason why this is a relevant matter is because many in the church use demons and devils as their excuse for being victims. But if we'd only realize that our problems and tribulation doesn't stem from the devil attacking us as much as it is from our bad decisions and current state of mindsets, we'd then take responsibility and submit that over to the power of Christ, also in us . . . But one can't submit something over to the Father if one continues to put the blame in another direction all together.
some good points,Nathan. But I tell you there is nothing 'natural' about a man slashing his skin...naturally a man does everything he can to 'preserve,
clothe and feed his own flesh. 'A man does not hate his own flesh,does he?"
there is a darkness that is 'darker' than any earthly darkness. It is a 'kingdom' of and in itself...clothe the naked,feed the hungry,visit those in prison,
minister to the sick. Natural flesh does this for natural flesh, spiritual flesh does this for spirit flesh. IT's 'damned" un-natural.
To us, it's an unnatural act. But so is being gay. But tell that to those who embrace it. It's unnatural to drink literal blood. It's unnatural to drink urine, to defaecate as a sexual act, to eat the flesh of another human . . .on and on . . . but to those who's minds are altered, not only is it natural to them, it gives them a rush as well. Are we to blame demons? Or could it be from a broken mind?
For Jesus had said to him,'COME OUT OF THIS MAN YOU EVIL SPIRIT!" and then,'go home to your family and tell them how much the Lord
has done for you"
Never again will the uncircumcized and unclean enter you again
Ever wonder where the evil spirit went after it left "that" person? Why didn't Jesus either bind it or "something" to keep it from entering another being? If these things are supposedly such enemies of God himself, why does Jesus appear to reason with them? He actually let the legion have their request . . . doesn't that strike you as odd? If God knows the end from the beginning, then he had to also have known that this "allowance" would lead to an entire city rejecting him. So why did he reason with the very power that is to be his archenemy?
In my past, I've been on both sides of this spectrum, so I'm not talking out of blanch ignorance here. I've been prayed over and I've prayed over many where there was, what is considered by the church "demonic" activity manifesting.
People use the passage that talks about how a wanders around looking for a host . . .literal spirits growing weary because they don't have a host to live in . . .but what is it that is to strengthen them . . .if it is not "our" attention "to" them??? Which for me, brings it all back around to the power of the mind, conscious and subconscious. For me, much of what is tagged as literal demons is more about something in our subconscious that we inadvertently opened that now creates imagery, causes us to do things that we wouldn't ordinarily do . . .like a little boy who would throw himself into a fire . . .where'd "that" demon go? If it was that dangerous of a demon, why didn't Jesus show us and those present that not only would he save the boy, but he would also destroy the demon so that those around there wouldn't find themselves throwing their selves into a fire as well? No one seems to pay any attention to the fact that Jesus was essentially freeing demons to attack other innocent by-standers as well.
the Future Glory of Zion
If anyone does attack you,it will not be my doing;whoever attacks you will surrender to you.
See, it is I who created the blacksmith,who fans the coals into flame and forges a weapon fit for it's work. And it is I who have created the destroyer
to work havoc; no weapon forged against you will prevail,and you will refute every tongue that accuses you
How are you applying this to the questions I've asked?
Father has us in this good/evil expierance to LEARN. We can learn the easier way,by heeding Him, or learn the hard way...BUT LEARN WE WILL
So . . .God created demons that can possess you and throw you into the fire . .so that you can . .learn???
Quote from: Nathan on September 29, 2011, 06:25:54 PM
Ever wonder where the evil spirit went after it left "that" person? Why didn't Jesus either bind it or "something" to keep it from entering another being? If these things are supposedly such enemies of God himself, why does Jesus appear to reason with them? He actually let the legion have their request . . . doesn't that strike you as odd? If God knows the end from the beginning, then he had to also have known that this "allowance" would lead to an entire city rejecting him. So why did he reason with the very power that is to be his archenemy?
In my past, I've been on both sides of this spectrum, so I'm not talking out of blanch ignorance here. I've been prayed over and I've prayed over many where there was, what is considered by the church "demonic" activity manifesting.
People use the passage that talks about how a wanders around looking for a host . . .literal spirits growing weary because they don't have a host to live in . . .but what is it that is to strengthen them . . .if it is not "our" attention "to" them??? Which for me, brings it all back around to the power of the mind, conscious and subconscious. For me, much of what is tagged as literal demons is more about something in our subconscious that we inadvertently opened that now creates imagery, causes us to do things that we wouldn't ordinarily do . . .like a little boy who would throw himself into a fire . . .where'd "that" demon go? If it was that dangerous of a demon, why didn't Jesus show us and those present that not only would he save the boy, but he would also destroy the demon so that those around there wouldn't find themselves throwing their selves into a fire as well? No one seems to pay any attention to the fact that Jesus was essentially freeing demons to attack other innocent by-standers as well.
I think we underestimate the dynamic of free will that is woven through out the entire kosmos and every being within the creation. It plays a fundamental part in how God is doing everything. How could we be "created in His image" if we were programmed.The fallout of "the fall" of Adam, and "the fall" if there was one, of angelic. I think we are "learning" that free will is the method of, source of, and beauty of love. Jesus never did what he "had" to do. He said, "I come to do your will oh God". For instance, isn't God essentially freeing all negative forces, whether we see them as entities such as demons(disembodied spirits, unclean spirits etc) or as aspects of our own spirit, soul, body- to do murder, torment, rape, deceive, etc. What is the common denominator in these questions? it is not, surely, that there is any difference in Jesus releasing demons into a herd of swine or the Father releasing millions of men and women to perpetrate wickedness upon there children or upon other people.It is clear, in this age, that God is not "destroying", in that way, the sources of evil. The answer goes deeper than that- worth searching out for sure.
God teaches His children by evil/good contrast...in the law,He taught them to distinguish/discern that which is good from that which is evil[choose]
to learn. Furthermore,He told them clean and unclean animals what to partake of,and not due to'characteristics...swine unclean=glutton,filthy,murderous
nature.
Now God gives vessels of unclean to provide evil aspect for our lessons. This man with a legion was a son of Israel and to be clean and sanctified,set aprt
for God's use. So,since it was not 'time' yet..for their confinement..they asked for permission to enter..the unclean animals[these men are spots and blemishes at your love
feast,adulterous eyes] Jesus granted that..and an example of great evil destruction was exhibited to all
It is I who have created the blacksmith[tools of darkness]
Now, Holy spirit showed than all men of various dispositions/understandings and qualities coming down out of heaven..and was told to Rise,kill,and eat
God's desire that all men shall be made clean...free of the nature of the beast...made over into a vessel of mercy and honour..in Christ's image
No man can come unless drawn of God in this life...and it is His choosing whether we serve as noble or unclean examples. Pharoah and Judas served
as negative background contrast to God's Holy,Power and Glory of deliverance
any 'vanity' we are sunjected to, is by HIS WILL,and not our own
Quote from: Nathan on September 29, 2011, 06:25:54 PM
Ever wonder where the evil spirit went after it left "that" person? Why didn't Jesus either bind it or "something" to keep it from entering another being? If these things are supposedly such enemies of God himself, why does Jesus appear to reason with them? He actually let the legion have their request . . . doesn't that strike you as odd? If God knows the end from the beginning, then he had to also have known that this "allowance" would lead to an entire city rejecting him. So why did he reason with the very power that is to be his archenemy?
In my past, I've been on both sides of this spectrum, so I'm not talking out of blanch ignorance here. I've been prayed over and I've prayed over many where there was, what is considered by the church "demonic" activity manifesting.
People use the passage that talks about how a wanders around looking for a host . . .literal spirits growing weary because they don't have a host to live in . . .but what is it that is to strengthen them . . .if it is not "our" attention "to" them??? Which for me, brings it all back around to the power of the mind, conscious and subconscious. For me, much of what is tagged as literal demons is more about something in our subconscious that we inadvertently opened that now creates imagery, causes us to do things that we wouldn't ordinarily do . . .like a little boy who would throw himself into a fire . . .where'd "that" demon go? If it was that dangerous of a demon, why didn't Jesus show us and those present that not only would he save the boy, but he would also destroy the demon so that those around there wouldn't find themselves throwing their selves into a fire as well? No one seems to pay any attention to the fact that Jesus was essentially freeing demons to attack other innocent by-standers as well.
Is it no different in the physical realm?
God allows murderers to do their wicked acts, unless somehow stops them via angelic force or motivates a person to do heroic act of bravery.
God makes mention that this world is not of above, it is a domain of evil and demons. Jesus came all the way from heavenly places down to this dense demonic world, to save the lost and utilizes his agents in this dark world, where just like the matrix the common folk are part of the system of its control mechanisms, only the saints empowered by holy spirit and the blood of christ can overcome the matrix of lies and deception, so that they may rise above the controlling systems on this planet.
One aspect of control is mass consciousness of the people. The peoples thoughts in unison which is dark, evil and in bondage cannot rise above its paradigm. The more people that think negatively the more power of dark force there is preventing the kingdom of God from fully blossoming in the physical world. A good example is a holy saint who is among a group of worshippers and regularly give glory to God and believe that he can do great miracles. Compare that to a holy saint who lives in a communist or atheist environment where the people do not even have the belief that God exists the atmosphere is so much heavier and oppressive, making miracles harder. But yet as in the case of the early church, such oppression causes growth and enduring qualities of God within the saints, giving them supernatural faith to overcome all the power of the enemy and gain the upper hand, thanks be to Christ who gives us victory over the lying serpents.
We are stardust,
Billion year old carbon,
We are golden,
Caught in the devil's bargain,
And we got to get ourselves back to the garden.
--Joni Mitchell
The only terrorists to fear are of the size and power of corrupt governments.
Who doesn't recognize evil when they see it?
Those who don't know history are destined to repeat it.
'Ton Ton Macoute,' Reign of terror
The force was created in 1959, only two years after François Duvalier became president, due to the threat posed to the dictator by the regular armed forces. After an attempted coup d'etat against him in 1958, Duvalier disbanded the army and all law enforcement agencies in Haiti, and executed all high-ranking generals. The new militia wore straw hats, blue denim shirts and dark glasses, and were armed with machetes and guns.
Duvalier employed the Tonton Macoutes in a reign of terror against any opponents, including those who proposed progressive social systems.[1] Those who spoke out against Duvalier would disappear at night, or were sometimes attacked in broad daylight. Tonton Macoutes often stoned and burned people alive. Many times the corpses were put on display, often hung in trees for everyone to see. Family members who tried to remove the bodies for proper burial often disappeared themselves, never to be seen again. They were believed to have been abducted and killed by the MVSN, who were called the "Tonton Macoutes" as a result. Anyone who challenged the MVSN risked assassination. Their unrestrained state terrorism was accompanied by corruption, extortion and personal aggrandizement among the leadership.
Luckner Cambronne was a particularly fierce head of the "Tonton Macoutes" throughout the 1960s and the beginning of the 1970s. His cruelty earned him the nickname "Vampire of the Caribbean". He profited by extortion carried out by his henchmen and by supplying corpses and blood to universities and hospitals in the United States. After Duvalier's death, he was ordered into exile by Duvalier's widow, Simone, and son. Cambronne left Haiti in 1971 for Miami, Florida, where he died on 20 September 2006 at the age of 77.[2]
Some of the most important members of the Tonton Macoutes were vodou leaders and this religious affiliation gave the Macoutes a sense of unearthly authority in the eyes of the public. From their methods to their choice of clothes, vodou always played an important role in their actions.
The victims of Tonton Macoutes could range from a woman in the poorest of neighborhoods who had the temerity to support an opposing politician to a businessman who refused to "donate" money for public works (which were the source of profit for corrupt officials and even the dictator himself). Tonton Macoutes murdered over 60,000 Haitians.
The Tonton Macoutes were a ubiquitous presence in a rigged 1961 election in which Duvalier was unanimously reelected to another term, and once again in 1964 when Duvalier held a rigged referendum that declared him President for Life.
Legacy
The militia existed under Jean-Claude Duvalier, the son and successor of François Duvalier, until the younger Duvalier was ousted in 1986. However, massacres led by paramilitary groups spawned from the Macoutes continued during the following decade. The most feared paramilitary group during the 1990s was the Front for the Advancement and Progress of Haïti (FRAPH) which Toronto Star journalist Linda Diebel described as modern Tonton Macoutes and not as the political party they claimed to be.)[1]
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tonton_Macoute
The LORD left the garden with Adam, a man after his own heart, and the image of the one to come.
Outside of the garden, the LORD taught Adam's children. The LORD appointed a new son to replace the righteous Abel when he was killed by his brother.
The definition of perfection is union and partnership with Jesus. He is perfect for both of us. This is why his yoke is easy and his burden is light. This is what makes us whole.
Genesis 17:1
And when Abram was ninety years old and nine, the LORD appeared to Abram, and said unto him, I am the Almighty God; walk before me, and be thou perfect.
"perfect"
H8549
תּמים
tâmı̂ym
taw-meem'
From H8552; entire (literally, figuratively or morally); also (as noun) integrity, truth: - without blemish, complete, full, perfect, sincerely (-ity), sound, without spot, undefiled, upright (-ly), whole.
He hath shewed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God? [Micah 6:8]
Jesus didn t just pray and teach. He gathered large crowds and exposed the corrupt power structure of the time publicly.
The Killing Fields
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