It really doesnt matter if the Son is eternal(having no beginning) or not, in terms of knowing Him. How the god head functions is not the gospel is based on. What it is, is an interesting theological discussion, and thats for sure, in terms of knowing about Him.
The same thing applies to whether God completely controls every thing(Calvin) or if man has a range of self determination in relationship to his life and times and service to(or not) God(Arminian).
Most reasonable people accept a general theory in their own minds on these things that fits in between the extremes. The extremes are usually proposed and promoted fervently by sectarian theologians.
The problem is, theologians get the idea that their perspectives on issues like this are the weight upon which men are "saved" or not, which is evidence of a true lack of understanding of the scriptures they claim to base their opinions on.
Salvation is a relationship with God. Jesus called us to know God and to love one another. Paul brought it down to knowing the Father and Son the Messiah through the Spirit and the word, and expressing that practically among our families and the community of believers and the community at large. Knowing about Him has value, but it doesnt save anyone, deliver anyone from sins grasp, or create a broken and a contrite heart in anyone.
Knowing God is where the depths are. Knowing about God is somewhere in the lesser, elementary principles of the oracles of God, a puddle by the shore little children splash around in because they are not yet mature enough to swim out into the deeper water, or go out sailing on the sea.
If Jesus has no beginning and is God very God by some mystical reality, existing as an eternal Trinity, or if Jesus was conceived in the mind of God as the "beginning" of creation, and is God in nature and eteranl power by inheritance and genesis, or if He is God by appointment like Joeseph to Pharoah, or whatever perspective one has on that..... the understanding of it is not the basis upon which a relationship wth God is established, nor it is necessary to fully understand all the arcane variables of these theories to have a fruitful relationship with God and a deep understanding of the scriptures. The deeper I go the more I see the need to leave a little space for the mysteries.
Theologians like God in a box whose strings and ribbons are held in their hands. They get paid and build careers and gain status by the successful promotion of their views, not by the love of the truth- not to say that to be a theologian is to not love the truth- just to say that truth is a mystery, not a catechism.
God is not obliged to step into these boxes. We are not obliged to exalt them out of due proportion, because our values get jaded when we allow no space for these things to remain a bit misty around the edges, but instead hold them in our simple minds as absolutes to be battled over and applied to men as if they were the greatest questions, when they are not.
But as food for thought, and in the joy of plumbing the depth of mysteries and possibilities the nature of deity is an interesting and thought provoking discussion, as is the "free will/Sov" discussion, until folks who are sure the universe turns on their opinions start getting strident with one another and its no fun any more, because the walls have gone up and the fellowship has come down to absolutely categorizing things God has left as hazy views through a murky glass, so that we might at some point gain wisdom over knowledge and be humbled.
I think He did this on purpose, for His own protection, and the protection of the holy place in which He dwells, from the cacaphony of debate and the self assured ideas of men..... so He could slip off out the side door and hang out with those who wonder at the glory of the stars and rejoice in the simple beauty of love and the innocence of childhood.... out there in the deep water with those who have been called out of this dark world to keep the fires of love alive, to remain awed at the glory of God and seek to know Him in all His mystery, as the pearl of great price, and enter through the narrow gate, into the kingdom of God.
Quote from: eaglesway on November 04, 2016, 08:49:54 PM
I think He did this on purpose, for His own protection, and the protection of the holy place in which He dwells, from the cacaphony of debate and the self assured ideas of men..... so He could slip off out the side door and hang out with those who wonder at the glory of the stars and rejoice in the simple beauty of love and the innocence of childhood.... out there in the deep water with those who have been called out of this dark world to keep the fires of love alive, to remain awed at the glory of God and seek to know Him in all His mystery, as the pearl of great price, and enter through the narrow gate, into the kingdom of God.
At that time Jesus, full of joy through the Holy Spirit, said, "I praise you, Father, Lord of heaven and earth, because you have hidden these things from the wise and learned, and revealed them to little children. Yes, Father, for this is what you were pleased to do. Luke 10:21
verily I say to you, whoever may not receive the reign of God, as a child -- he may not enter into it;' Mark 10:15
Though this world is in awe of sophisticated, God looks for a child-like love and attitude.
Agreed, EW!
D.
Indeed seems much of the things hidden from man are to keep man from becoming egotistical and self-effort, which would cut a bit of the work Christ actually achieved out of the equation.
Also I.M.O seems this is so that we will be literally equal in standing in the coming age- true equality which man cannot implement.
i agree. "Every man under his own vine with his own fig tree"
My Boxes are in pretty bad shape at this point. After 'knowing' many many things over the years, I've finally concluded that I 'know' very little. Humbling...yeah. But I still have lots of opinions so, watch out. :footmouth:
Quote from: StevenL on November 10, 2016, 04:45:54 PM
My Boxes are in pretty bad shape at this point. After 'knowing' many many things over the years, I've finally concluded that I 'know' very little. Humbling...yeah. But I still have lots of opinions so, watch out. :footmouth:
:thumbsup:
Very well said! Eaglesway.. and all replies too!! A blessing to read!
Welcome StephenL! We all can say the same thing! Well that is, I know can! :welcome:
God bless!
Very well said EW, for me it is as simple as this, putting God in a box, is the same as giving only one definition for a word
if the word "one" only means the number one (1), how could we ever understand "unity", "marriage" ..... "All in All" ..... and the list goes on
As one very wise man said, how many words does it take to describe one word?
For me, it takes all of them to describe "my all" ..... for He is infinite.
:thumbsup: :iagree:
It seems like the only truth to be nailed down (agreed upon) - after the salvation message/knowing - is the true and full gospel.. Lately I've been musing.. if the true and full gospel were to become known by the world - wait a minute.. by christians! could the people of the world learn and turn course, and perhaps not have to experience the book of revelation..? (Collapse of all built on sand?) I think yes. That the true gospel is that good! Is a magnet that strong.. "He has blinded the minds.. lest they see with their eyes and hear with their ears and be converted.."
The true gospel of total love, if known, could transform the world? But the opening of the eyes can only be a movement of the Spirit.. "and the Spirit moved across the waters.."
Heaven forbid this forum become like many others and fall into bickering and sides to issues/ideas.. :laughing7: That would be silly.. Which keeps it fun to ponder and discuss so many side issues.. especially with the slant of how they relate to U.R.
I think these days the world/people are trained to be confrontational concerning ideas and theories, both worldly and biblical.. But an exchange of ideas doesn't require proving and convincing.. no angst!
:cloud9:
I'm not sure how you see Revelation .... but I see it "as" the experience of dying to self, so everyone must go through it
Just as Genesis explains how we became "self" (Adam), Revelation is how he (the first Adam) will die
To see it in layman's terms (a quote from the movie Avatar) ..... you cannot fill a cup that is already full
must be emptied/die first ..... same truth