When reading an ET site the fire is fire and the worm is sin that's constantly eating away any hope.
Or something like that.
In the UR view God is the fire. A cleaning fire. But if the worm doesn't die then God would have found His match because He's unable to destroy the worm (sin)
So what is the worm from an UR pov?
Revelation 6
9And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
To me, your worm is your soul.
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
TWO TYPES ww....
A maggot and a Worm...read up on it...it will tell the difference
towla
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.
The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE :icon_flower:
/edit this reply was typed during Taffies reply.
Exodus 16:24 And they laid it up till the morning, as Moses bade: and it did not stink, neither was there any worm therein.
Job 17:14 I have said to corruption, Thou art my father: to the worm,
The above 2 verses seem to speak about normal maggots.
Mark 9:43-44 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched: {offend...: or, cause thee to offend} 44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.
So if the soul is the worm does that mean the body is completly burned away?
BTW
I've seen some gloomy ET NDA experiences with worms. The worms where a few feet long and had big spikes.
A woman that commited adultary had worms entering trough here throat and exiting in the lower parts. Completely shredding her body over and over.
No, it isn't about your physical body . . .it's about your carnal nature . . that is the "flesh" we speak of. In Genesis, God speaks to the serpent about it's diet. He says "dust shall be your meat". We know physically, snakes don't live on dirt. But it's not meant to be understood physcially, like the rest of the Bible, so many seem to be struggling here with the fact that NONE of it is supposed to be taken literal in the same sense as to those it was originally written to. I still believe that's why all the debating is still happening, even on the "spiritual" forums. We're being "called" into the spirit, but we're wanting to bring our baggage of how we learned to study the Bible from our previous past with us. Until we "see" the sound of rest . . .the arguments will continue.
The worm, as Taf so effectively stated in so few words (how "do" you "do" that??) the worm lives on dead flesh . . .Romans 1:20 . .God uses natural means to reveal spiritual truths. In looking at the characteristics of what worms do, we can actually learn about something of ourselves. Worms "do" eat dirt . . .earth worms, in our area there are also worms we like to call "night-crawlers) They have the same nature as earth-worms. The lay just beneath the surface in the summer months and live on the nutrients in the dirt. They have no bones in them (frame-work, stability) and they only come out at night. The second light is cast on them, they immediately retract into their earthen holes they crawled out of.
Maggots . . .on the other hand, as Taf said, eat nothing but dead flesh. Every now and then you'll see documentaries on how some hospitals use maggots to eat decaying flesh in someone who's still alive. Very gross.
But the Biblical references to such things are not for us to learn more about nature, but it's all about God revealing the nature of Christ and his creation in us. Our ego is what lives on the dust . . .it's our ego that was the serpent in the tree of knowledge . . .it's the dragon in Revelation, it's the devil, it's satan . . .it's the antichrist . .it's the bottomless pit . . . the emphasis is not about me, it's about the redemption of Christ "in" me. But my ego only thinks of itself . . .self-consciousness. And it takes the word of God . .creates an image of God out of it's own logic, and is convinced that Man was made for the Sabbath.
So, no, it's not your physical body being burned . .it's your carnal nature.
Nathan. I'm very aware most things in the Bible aren't to be taken literally. But unfortunately that knowledge doesn't help me understand what it means. Altough my message is shown after Taffies reply I started my reply before him. It just took me way longer to complet my message as it did for Taffy.
(see my "/edit...." at the start of the message)
Anyway your following quote made me think:
(BTW made=maggot in Dutch....)
QuoteMaggots . . .on the other hand, as Taf said, eat nothing but dead flesh. Every now and then you'll see documentaries on how some hospitals use maggots to eat decaying flesh in someone who's still alive. Very gross.
Maggots are (in rare occasions) still used in advanced wester hospitals.
Maggots are masters of
only eating death flesh. Under some circumstances their cleaning effect is better than anti-biotics. Of course it's a very controlled use of maggots. Not an horror like scenario.
Was such usage know in the time of Jesus? The reason I ask is that the worms have a purifying effect.
They eat away dead flesh=sinful nature but leave good flesh=good nature intact.
Hmm . .now you may be getting closer to the true nature of God. He's not nearly as concerned about the maggots in our nature as we are.
The first thing that popped in my mind when you stated that was . . . wheat and tares. We're instructed NOT to try to remove the tares but wait until all things have come into their maturity. Who's to say God does not place these spiritual "flesh-eating" maggots within us?
Interesting thought.
But to the original passage . .the worm never dying . . .I think it would be taking that particular passage out of context if we were to try to apply it to this other idea. In all truth, my mind (ego) is a flesh eater . . .the more I feed it, the more it consumes my time, attention, and energy. My flesh is the dust the serpent (ego) feasts on . . .this is much like worrying about all of the daily issues we experience at any given time. The natural environment in us . . .we are "in" the world but not "of" the world. When all you think about is worldly things, you're becoming more of than in. And when I'm in that arena, I'm not any good to anyone.
the picture there is a bit different than our hospital maggots. But I can see how that can also have a lot of value to it as well. Who here still has not dead flesh that needs to be cleaned from our living, breathing hearts? Bring on the maggots eh?
QuoteThe first thing that popped in my mind when you stated that was . . . wheat and tares. We're instructed NOT to try to remove the tares but wait until all things have come into their maturity.
Your far from the first on this forum to state something among that line.
To be honest I don't understand one letter of it.
I try to be more Christian. And for me that's trying to at least get rid of a few tares. And certainly not adding more of them.
I'm very well aware you or anyone else on this forum is advising me to sin (add more tares) but it surely reads that way for me. I just don't see the difference between your words and the words of satan.
I'm NOT comparing your intentions with those of satan Nathan!
BTW is it a coincidence your names sound so much alike? :laughing7:
I think whenever the bible speaks of eternity of things, or their worm not dying, then the answer has to be in eternity. Or destiny. Their destiny will never die. Of course if you try and see it as a physical thing, then all kinds of interpitations can be brought forth. And all of those interpitations will wither and die.
If something is not going to die, then it only can be eternal. If a human has a worm, and that worm will never die, then it only means destiny.
Our destiny, our future, our potential will never die. Its not so much the physical, because the things that eat away at us will die, or come to an end. But for my worm to never die, means God is giving it eternity.
Peace.
Hi Mikiel!
I had that thought about eternnity too. But I decided not to mention it because I feared teh thread got sidetracked to the anion thingy again. This is not an attack on you mentioning it.
But now it's mentioned it's no problem to continue with it.
Would it make sense if I would say "the worm dieth not during the correctional age" ?
Or "the worm dieth not until its work is completed"?
Anyone seen the movie "Sin Eater" Something like that.
Nathan see the worm as a soul. That's not how I see it. (yet)
For me the worm is punishment or a cleaning method. See my hospital maggot example.
Whitewings . . . let me put this another way . . .pertaining to your comments on the wheat and tares . . .you've read many books, gathered a lot of information. Could you confirm that when someone has cancer, they have to go through chemotherapy, that the things purposefully being put into their body is small doses of the very thing they're dying from? With the intent to have the body build up an immune against the virus?
If I don't want to get the measles, that the very thing they shoot into my body, is the actual virus I'm trying to avoid getting, just a very small dose . .about the size of a tare.
If you feel there is already an abundance of words said on this subject and yet you still feel as you do, then I'll just leave this where it is as it's apparent, there's nothing I can add that you don't already know . . . and I pray that God will get past your mind and reveal truth to your heart . . . everything is spiritual.
Okay, just one thing though . . . if you read the passage . .it's not you, nor I who removes the tares from your field. It's the angels . .the messengers ..more importantly, the message. So when you feel you must take it upon yourself to remove your own tares, perhaps you can see why we say that it's best to leave them . . .God's grace is just that big.
Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 05:54:41 PM
Job 25:6 How much less man, [that is] a worm?((rimmah=maggot) and the son of man, [which is] a worm (towla=crimson worm)
TWO TYPES ww....
A maggot and a Worm...read up on it...it will tell the difference
towla
When the female of the scarlet worm species was ready to give birth to her young, she would attach her body to the trunk of a tree, fixing herself so firmly and permanently that she would never leave again. The eggs deposited beneath her body were thus protected until the larvae were hatched and able to enter their own life cycle. As the mother died, the crimson fluid stained her body and the surrounding wood. From the dead bodies of such female scarlet worms, the commercial scarlet dyes of antiquity were extracted. What a picture this gives of Christ, dying on the tree, shedding his precious blood that he might 'bring many sons unto glory' (Hbr 2:10)! He died for us, that we might live through him! Psa 22:6 describes such a worm and gives us this picture of Christ. (cf. Isa 1:18)" (Henry Morris. Biblical Basis for Modern Science, Baker Book House, 1985, p. 73)
Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.
The transformation of moving from Death to LIFE as is the Resurrection unto LIFE :icon_flower:
Amen.
There we go, see how using words properly demonstrates the truth! :D
Quote from: Taffy on August 21, 2008, 05:54:41 PM
Maggots eat only the flesh of the DEAD,then eventually it CHANGES into a fly....IT DOESNT DIE.
Then it flies to the light.
(http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture8/wellelec/Product-200467161539.jpg)
Sorry couldn't resist this open goal :laughing7:
That's just . . .so . . .wrong! :thumbsup:
Quote from: WhiteWings on August 21, 2008, 09:59:05 PM
Hi Mikiel!
I had that thought about eternnity too. But I decided not to mention it because I feared teh thread got sidetracked to the anion thingy again. This is not an attack on you mentioning it.
But now it's mentioned it's no problem to continue with it.
Would it make sense if I would say "the worm dieth not during the correctional age" ?
Or "the worm dieth not until its work is completed"?
Anyone seen the movie "Sin Eater" Something like that.
Nathan see the worm as a soul. That's not how I see it. (yet)
For me the worm is punishment or a cleaning method. See my hospital maggot example.
Well seeing is believing to some, but not to all. We see in scripture what we see, its the comparing of what we see that causes confusion. We compare amoungst ourselves our differences, and then pick on each others difference. In my view, when something does not die, its eternal, if then something in a human does not die, it just has eternal ramifications, of which we are limited on understanding. For example, is there a " Worm in every human?" If that be so, and this worm does not die, then we are getting into destiny, not matter, or the physical " Worm." But physical examples of things in eternity are all that we can now experience, so I think some of the examples given are valid.
The worm to pupi, or the evolution of one form of life, meant to evolve into another, I think makes sense. Its really all about the stages of life, some stages are meant to represent death, others are meant to show we will never die.
And that can be confusing. If the worm does not die, then it is simply a worm of God, or a work of God not meant to die.
There is a worm in the ground, and we are destined to return to the ground. So the worm is part of both death and life, and we see one stage, or both, or sadly neither.
Peace.
I think it deserves honorable mention that Jesus give solem warnings for specfic reasons. In Mark 9:43, he states that it is better to enter life crippled, than to be whole and enter into hell, the unquenchable fire. Where their worm does not die, nor does the fire die. Perhaps the only scripture where Jesus actually compares hell to the lake of fire, and makes it a point, 3 times, to be aware in our thinking that we are better off being physically handicapped by being righteous, and to carry that condition into heaven, ( and be healed) than to not make the sacrifices that we should in our human living, as we march toward our destiny with the grave, or hell.
Everryone will be salted with fire, or every human has a devine destiny. Hell, the lake of fire, the worm not quenched, all are destiny, or unavoidable circumstance, which must be viewed from a standpoint of Salvation, which is not circumstancial. The worm dies from circumstance, if it is a situation where the worm does not die, then there is no circumstance. There is only eternity. So when the worm does not die, its just out of the relm of human circumstance, now your in the fire, which I think only means eternity in this scripture. So in this matter, I think the worm, means the " Soul of the human." The soul that sins shall die, so this worm is dead already physically, but now must face eternity.
So again the lumming belief that the lake of fire is medicnal, needs to be rightly considered, because it carrys a lot of weight. It just may well be true. I don't know. Souls of the dead being ressurected again to life, then never dying again. Fire is good when it is hot, but when it looses its heat, what good is it? Our lack of understanding is a heat, and we are not going to loose it as of yet. What good is salt that has lost its flavor? What good is a worm, or a soul that can die? The soul that sins shall die, so in one sense, we NEED to have a worm that never dies.
We just need God to bathe us with righteous eternal existance.
Peace.
So in another sense, again Jesus comparrison to the worm not dying, in conjunction with the Lake of fire, is a prophecy of eternal ramifications. Or he wants to compare dying, with a circumstance in which death is totally removed. This should switch some gears in your mind, from the physical to the spiritual, or move your thoughts of punishment, into a higher level of punishment. Fear him who is able to KILL both body and soul in hell. Or God can kill you forever, if he is inclinded to. Just leave you in the grave, or you remain dead.
But the worm never dying is encouraging, in a sense, because its leaving room for life, within a death circumstance. God created the circumstances, satan manipulates the circumstances, and looks to doom us based on the circumstancial evidence. And wants to cause us to stumble. Death is circumstancial, but life is a gift from God. The worm never dying is a kind of Gift then, a gift given in the flesh, or bathed within circumstances beyond our control, and then a NEW CIRCUMSTANCE looms when we go into eternity! A new worm. A new birth.
A new life. A life that never dies.
Peace.
Mickiel it would seem you have reached the crux of the matter . . .the lake of fire will purge the soul from it's impurities, but the soul will survive the fire. Our ego/voice of reason naturally leans toward the negative aspects of everything. But this isn't necessarily a bad thing here . . .the good thing is the outcome after the fire. You're soul lives . . .purified for ever.
I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment. Once we've been cleansed "by" the lake of fire, we'll live forever rejoicing "in" the lake of fire . . .have we not said "God" is the lake of fire? Only the moral mind would view it as a bad thing, a terrible experience, and then creating it to be something it isn't so that we won't be so willing to jump in it . .because the ego knows, once this final purging happens, it will never be in a high place ever again.
Anybody got a light???
Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.
Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 02, 2008, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.
Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?
To me, fear in the bible when interpreted in Love means "awe".
G5399 phobeo fob-eh'-o
from G5401;
to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
When I asked God what the fire and worms were, I heard lust and guilt. It is that cyclical nature of a state of mind that one lives in when they do not cut off that part of them that causes them to sin. The very misery of this place will many times lead one to repentence. In this place, the lust and guilt are never-ending...that is why we must be delivered from this body of death through Jesus.
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on September 02, 2008, 03:53:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 02, 2008, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.
Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?
To me, fear in the bible when interpreted in Love means "awe".
G5399 phobeo fob-eh'-o
from G5401;
to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
Paul,
I don't understand your answer. Reexplain please.
Quote from: Sarah on September 02, 2008, 05:15:13 PM
When I asked God what the fire and worms were, I heard lust and guilt. It is that cyclical nature of a state of mind that one lives in when they do not cut off that part of them that causes them to sin. The very misery of this place will many times lead one to repentence. In this place, the lust and guilt are never-ending...that is why we must be delivered from this body of death through Jesus.
If fire=lust and worm=guilt; why does God sent sinners into a lake of fire=lust?
/corrected 20 errors in a 16 word sentance...
QuoteIf fire=lust and worm is guilt; why does sent sinners into a lake of fire=lust?
If I am understanding your question, are you wondering why God would send people to a place of lust and guilt?
It is evil desires in the heart that send people to Gehenna...a literal place with a spiritual application.
Romans 1
24 "Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25They exchanged the truth of God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen. 26Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural relations for unnatural ones. 27In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed indecent acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their perversion. 28Furthermore, since they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, he gave them over to a depraved mind, to do what ought not to be done. 29They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31they are senseless, faithless, heartless, ruthless. 32Although they know God's righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.I know this verse seems to be a gay bashing verse, but I believe the bigger picture is the whole application of lust spoken of in John 2:16
16For all that is in the world, (AQ)the lust of the flesh and (AR)the lust of the eyes and (AS)the boastful pride of life, is not from the Father, but is from the world. Why send people here? Is it punishment? No, it is to destroy the sinful nature. Either they will repent as the prodical son did or the sin will lead to death.
1Corinthians 5
4When you are assembled in the name of our Lord Jesus and I am with you in spirit, and the power of our Lord Jesus is present, 5hand this man over to Satan, so that the sinful nature[a] may be destroyed and his spirit saved on the day of the Lord. Here is an example of a fire that reveals a picture of God's unsavory view of self-righteouness and idolatry.
Isaiah 65
2 All day long I have held out my hands
to an obstinate people,
who walk in ways not good,
pursuing their own imaginations-
3 a people who continually provoke me
to my very face,
offering sacrifices in gardens
and burning incense on altars of brick;
4 who sit among the graves
and spend their nights keeping secret vigil;
who eat the flesh of pigs,
and whose pots hold broth of unclean meat;
5 who say, 'Keep away; don't come near me,
for I am too sacred for you!'
Such people are smoke in my nostrils,
a fire that keeps burning all day. In the natural the people received the natural consequences in the literal fires of Gehenna, whereas when we continue in sin and refuse to cut off that dead arm, we will reap the rewards of what we have sown.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 02, 2008, 07:27:12 PM
Quote from: Paul Hazelwood on September 02, 2008, 03:53:55 PM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 02, 2008, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.
Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?
To me, fear in the bible when interpreted in Love means "awe".
G5399 phobeo fob-eh'-o
from G5401;
to frighten, i.e. (passively) to be alarmed; by analogy, to be in awe of, i.e.
revere:--be (+ sore) afraid, fear (exceedingly), reverence.
Paul,
I don't understand your answer. Reexplain please.
Well I will try.
I believe that the methods of properly intepreting scripture are contained within itself. That might be disagreed with, but certainly we can look at the religious methods which become confusing and complicated, causing one to at times reliquish reason and call it faith and being spirit led. I can clarify that further with scruipture if needed.
If God "IS" love and its not something he created and uses, then it is reasonable to consider that all interpretation of the bible must include Love as a factor.
God operating things to instill a frightening fear into us to conform us to his will does not seem to fit that. So in my opinion, a statement telling us to fear in the bible would be a factor of Reverence and Awe that can at times cause us to tremble, but not out of fright and worry.
Whitewings, I fully agree with Paul on this. It's been one issue I've had with ET as well as I'm sure other URists feel the same way. And that is, how can you base your relationship on a love that is established with fear tactics? Our natural minds love to shock and awe others. We're after that visible response. It's something that was most frustrating about Jesus, he simply planted his seed and left the room. They didn't get it, he gave them one explanation and left. The disciples didn't get it either and he would spend much of his time re-explaining the parables to them so they'd get the keys that unlocked the meaning. But still, they didn't get it until the Holy Spirit revealed it to them . .and that didn't begin happening until after Jesus was already gone.
Without the Spirit of God in us, all we have is the Word . . .and it's nearly impossible to understand God's truth through his Word without His Spirit revealing the truth to us. Religious people have reason to misinterpret truth, we tend to do it ourselves from time to time as well. Rather than "wait" for revelation of truth to come, we take it upon ourselves to come to our own conclusions with our own understanding of what we think things are to mean. And then fear becomes intimidation rather that an actual manifestation of love.
I fear my wife, but not because I'm afraid of her, I am moved by her, I am awed by her, it's the result of me having an intimate relationship with her. It's the same with Christ. Fear OF God is not something you work up or adhere yourself to. It's the result of coming into a personal relationship with the undescribable person natural eyes just can not see.
When you read Scriptures with your head, your head will try to imitate the examples given in Scripture of a righteous person. They walk differently, they talk differently . .so us churches, we emphasize the end results of the characters in Scripture and "teach" others how to walk and talk like the examples the Bible has given that a Christian should be like. But we miss the point. Just because you walk and talk like them, doesn't make you righteous like them. The reason they walk and talk like they do is because they were transformed from the inside out . . .rather than us honing in on the outward appearances, we should instead pursue the one who did the trasforming, not the results of the transformations.
When my inward nature is transformed, then my outward appearance will reflect that. It's not about being scared because "they" were scared. Pursue Christ, in him you won't find fear, but peace, rest and love . .the greatest of these is love.
Thanks for the answers. Still don't get it. It's above my head so i'll let it rest for the time being.
:BangHead:
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 03, 2008, 06:56:21 PM
Thanks for the answers. Still don't get it. It's above my head so i'll let it rest for the time being.
:BangHead:
I don't think it's above your head, possibly, the way it is being explained doesn't quite convey it to the way you might be seeing things at the moment. Let me try one more time.
Fear as in fright, being scared or in horror would be more about saying "I accept Christ, because if I do not say it, I risk an eternal doom of some sort"
Fear as in awe, respect, reverence, honor, could cause a feeling that might make one feel a fear in the sense that maybe we cannot understand the magnificent greatness of God.
That would be more in line to saying "I accept Christ, because the vision of his love and power that can bring the most hateful and despicable thing to willingly submit in that same awe and reverence and love is so beyond my understanding that I tremble at the very thought of it."
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 02, 2008, 03:03:13 PM
Quote from: Nathan on August 22, 2008, 06:20:31 PM
I guess, in a sense. . the lake of fire itself is eternal . . .and we'll spend eternity in it . . .but it's the purging that will last for only a moment.
Don't fear him that can destoy the body but fear him that can both destroy body and soul.
If the cleaning is almost instantly what is there to fear?
I have a completely different understanding of this verse White Wings, please read the following:
Matthew 10:28 "Fear not him who can kill the body, but he who kills both body and soul in Gehenna."
Matthew 10 (The Commission of the Twelve Disciples)Summoning His 12 disciples, He gave them authority over unclean spirits, to drive them out and to heal every disease and sickness. These are the names of the 12 apostles: First, Simon, who is called Peter, and Andrew his brother; James the son of Zebedee, and John his brother; Philip and Bartholomew; Thomas and Matthew the tax collector; James the son of Alphaeus, and Thaddaeus; Simon the Zealot, and Judas Iscariot, who also betrayed Him.
Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions: "Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town.Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. As you go, announce this: 'The kingdom of heaven has come near. 'Heal the sick, raise the dead, cleanse those with skin diseases, drive out demons. You have received free of charge; give free of charge. Don't take along gold, silver, or copper for your money-belts. Don't take a traveling bag for the road, or an extra shirt, sandals, or a walking stick, for the worker is worthy of his food.
"When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. Greet a household when you enter it, and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town. I assure you: It will be more tolerable on the day of judgment for the land of Sodom and Gomorrah than for that town.
"Look, I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves. Because people will hand you over to sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues, beware of them. You will even be brought before governors and kings because of Me, to bear witness to them and to the nations. But when they hand you over, don't worry about how or what you should speak. For you will be given what to say at that hour, because you are not speaking, but the Spirit of your Father is speaking through you.
"Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child. Children will even rise up against their parents and have them put to death. You will be hated by everyone because of My name. But the one who endures to the end will be delivered. When they persecute you in one town, escape to another. For I assure you: You will not have covered the towns of Israel before the Son of Man comes."
"A disciple is not above his teacher, or a slave above his master. It is enough for a disciple to become like his teacher and a slave like his master. If they called the head of the house ' Beelzebul,' how much more the members of his household! "Therefore, don't be afraid of them, since there is nothing covered that won't be uncovered, and nothing hidden that won't be made known. What I tell you in the dark, speak in the light. What you hear in a whisper, proclaim on the housetops. Don't fear him who can kill the body but is not able to kill the soul; rather, fear him who is able to destroy both soul and body in gehenna."To have any understanding of Matthew 10 and the usage of Gehenna, we need to know the definition of Gehenna and its history. Depending on the audience, Gehenna represented something different. Then there are three interpretations concerning this Scripture, the first is that Jesus was speaking to everyone; the second is Jesus is speaking to the Pharisee; the third is Jesus is speaking to His Disciples. So what we must do is know what is Gehenna but also who was Jesus's audience to discover the intention of those words.
So what is Gehenna?Gehenna definition: Gehenna is a word from Hebrew Gai-Ben-Hinnom or Gai-Hinnom meaning Valley of the Son of Hinnom, and is still called Gai Ben Hinnom in Modern Hebrew. It refers to a garbage dump in a deep valley outside the walls of Jerusalem where fires were kept burning with brimstone to consume the refuse and keep down the stench. It is was the location where garbage, refuse, bodies of executed criminals, or individuals denied a proper burial, and unfortunately where the children of ancient Jews (Hebrews) were sacrificed to pagan idols (notably Moloch)* were thrown.
*It is mentioned in the Old Testament several places, notably 2 Chronicles 28:3; 33:6; 2 Kings 23:10; Jeremiah 7:31; 19:2-6; 32:35. Jeremiah, 19:2-6, speaks of the Jews worshipping pagan idols and committing abominations. Ancient Jews once sacrificed their children to pagan idols in the fires in Gehenna, and this was an abomination; in 2 Kings, 23:10, King Josiah forbade the sacrificing of children to Moloch at Gehenna.
Who was the audience Jesus was addressing?a) Everyone
b) Pharisee
c) His 12 Disciples
The answer is C, His 12 Disciples. We know the audience from Matthew 10:1, "Summoning His 12 disciples..." We also know Jesus was addressing them from Matthew 10:5, "Jesus sent out these 12 after giving them instructions...." It is sound and free from speculation. There is no indication He was speaking to everyone, and no indication He was speaking to the Pharisee.
Now we have defined the term Gehenna, and we have established a true proposition concerning the audience. We now must address the other propositions, as who is the "him" who is able to destroy both soul and body in Gehenna. This will help us identify the true usage of term Gehenna, and solve the mystery concerning Matthew 10:28.
Jesus describes two groups of people. First, those who who will betray, capture and kill you; and second, those who call you names and bear false witness against you. One group of people Jesus said to beware of, the other group of people he said do not worry about. One group of people who betray their children to death, the other group of people will insult you. One group of people who you should fear, another group of people who you should not.
First, Jesus tells His Disciples plainly the people whom they should beware of in Matthew 10:16 he says, "Look, I'm sending you out like sheep among wolves. Therefore be as shrewd as serpents and as harmless as doves." Jesus told them they were going as prey to carnivorous animals! They needed to be shrewd as serpents concerning them and He speaks of these carnivorous animals specifically in Matthew 10:17, "Because people will hand you over to sanhedrins and flog you in their synagogues, beware of them." So be fearful (beware) of those of the sanhedrin!
Second, Jesus tells His Disciples plainly the people whom they should not worry about in Matthew 10:18-19,"...they called the head of the house ' Beelzebul,' how much more the members of his household! Therefore, don't be afraid of them, since there is nothing covered that won't be uncovered, and nothing hidden that won't be made known." Jesus refers to this group earlier saying in his instruction in Matthew 10:11-14 "When you enter any town or village, find out who is worthy, and stay there until you leave. Greet a household when you enter it, and if the household is worthy, let your peace be on it. But if it is unworthy, let your peace return to you. If anyone will not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town." There is nothing to fear of the town that does not welcome you or listen to your words, shake the dust off your feet when you leave that house or town. They may call you servant of "Beelzebul", there is nothing hidden that won't be made known because Jesus was not Beelzebul, and neither were the Disciples followers of Beelzebul.
What is a sanhedrin?The Sanhedrin Definition: A council or assembly of judges; a tribunal in which every Jewish town judged matters of lesser importance. It is a great council at Jerusalem, consisting of the seventy one members, viz. scribes, elders, prominent members of the high priestly families and the high priest, the president of the assembly which judged the most important causes, inasmuch as the Roman rulers of Judea had left to it the power of trying such cases, and also of pronouncing sentence of death, with the limitation that a capital sentence pronounced by the Sanhedrin was not valid unless it was confirmed by the Roman procurator.
Now knowing Jesus said to beware of the sanhedrin, and knowing what the sanhedrin consists of; we can look at the definition of Gehenna and choose appropriately the definition Jesus was alluding to concerning it.
Despite how they are considered by others, did Jesus classify the Disciples as:a) Garbage
b) Criminals
c) Children of God
The answer is C, Children of God. Jesus gives a clue to the usage of Gehenna in Matthew 10:21, "Brother will betray brother to death, and a father his child...." Who were the brothers of the Children of God? Jesus gave us a clue to this in Matthew 10:5-6, "....Don't take the road leading to other nations, and don't enter any Samaritan town. Instead, go to the lost sheep of the house of Israel."
What is Gehenna?a) A garbage pit outside Jerusalem
b) A place for dead criminals and dead dishonored men
c) A place where apostate Jews murdered their children and sacrificed them to false gods
d) All the above.
The answer is D, but in context to the words Jesus spoke, he was specifically speaking to the Disciples who were sent out to the lost sheep of the house of Israel. They were sent out to their lost brothers, the apostate Jews.
So the answer is C, Jesus was using the definition of Gehenna, as "A place where apostate Jews murdered their children and sacrificed them to false gods."
So now in conclusion:Proposition statement #1: The audience Jesus was addressing was His Disciples.
Proposition statement #2: Do not fear them who insult you or not welcome you.
Proposition statement #3: Beware of the council or assembly, or tribunal of consisting of Jews.
Proposition statement #4: The Disciples are called brothers and children.
Proposition statement #5: Gehenna was the place where apostate Jews murdered their children and sacrificed them to false gods.
Propositional Conclusion:When Jesus said, "fear not him who can kill the body, but him who kills both body and soul in Gehenna". He was saying, do not fear the fact you can die on this journey but beware of the apostate Jews who are going to betray you and murder you just like they did in the ancient days where brother betrayed brother to death, killing the prophets of God and of fathers (Apostate Hebrews) sacrificed their children (Israel) to false gods."Next, to affirm such conclusion, we need to know other facts.
FEARNoticed a pattern, in which Jesus used the word
"Phobeo" and not a number of words he could have used if it was God like,
"Deilos, Ekphobos, Eulabeia, Eulabeomai, Phoberos, Phobetron, or Phobos" These latter words mean exclusively, "Be terrified, Be dreadfully frightened, religious reverence towards, humble yourself completely the authority of.""Phobeo" on the other hand is a generic term used many times in depending on its context to mean in Scripture as, "Beware, Guard yourself, Be shrewd concerning, Discern the danger, Have caution concerning, be startled by it, raise alarm concerning." which would mean in my summarization that if Jesus was referring to the Pharisee, He was not telling them to be 'terrified, or humble yourself completely to' them but to "beware, discern the danger of, have caution concerning, be startled by, raise alarm concerning" them.
Note Luke 12 supports what I am saying...
Luke 12:1-5Meanwhile, when a crowd of many thousands had gathered, so that they were trampling on one another, Jesus began to speak first to his disciples, saying: "Be on your guard against the yeast of the Pharisees, which is hypocrisy. There is nothing concealed that will not be disclosed, or hidden that will not be made known. What you have said in the dark will be heard in the daylight, and what you have whispered in the ear in the inner rooms will be proclaimed from the roofs.
"I tell you, my friends (still addressing the audience of his disciples), do not be afraid of him who kill the body and after that can do no more. But I will show you whom you should fear: Fear him who, after the killing of the body, has power to throw you into Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear him.Notice Jesus is warning once again the disciples of the Pharisee. The apostate teachers who have commanded the people of Israel to worship and sacrifice to a false god. Jesus says to his disciples after seeing this, "Be on guard against the yeast of the Pharisee." and then continues as people trample each other, "Do not be afraid of him who kill the body and after that can do no more, but be afraid of those who kill the body and after that has the power to throw you into Gehenna." which from the audience Jesus is addressing and the event which prompted this instruction, could mean just as I had seen in Matthew 10, "Do not be afraid (alarmed, discern the danger, have caution concerning) of him who kill the body by accident, but be afraid (alarmed, discern the danger, have caution concerning) those who murder you and then just as they did in days past where they trampled the graves of the prophets, threw their children into the fires of Gehenna. Yes, I tell you, fear (raise alarm, discern the danger, have caution concerning) him."
Staying in Luke 12, we read with sound, that Jesus says do not fear God.
Luke 12:6-7"Are not five sparrows selling for two pence?--and not one of them is forgotten in God's sight. But even the hairs of your head have all been numbered. Then do not fear! You are of more consequence than many sparrows.The same audience, the same line of thought. Either Jesus contradicts Himself telling the disciples to fear God, and then not to fear God; or Jesus never contradicts himself and is warning the disciples that they will be killed by the apostate Hebrews just as their ancestors killed the prophets of God as they also threw their children into Gehenna.
Jesus was not warning an audience of the masses of God's Gehenna, neither was he warning an audience the Pharisee of God's Gehenna, He was addressing His disciples. Why in the world would he only address His disciples to be afraid of God's Gehenna? This is the key to understanding the context and meaning of His words. He would not, it makes no sense the Disciples had nothing to fear from God as Jesus said.
Hi Craig,
Maybe I am misunderstanding your explaination based on the killing of the soul part of the verse, no matter what sect of humans your talking about or what they do, neither can kill the soul.
I understand your context and do not necessarily disagree, but I also know that the power of scripture allows that context to be broadened beyond only the literal group. Otherwise, the people that do not think scripture can really apply today have a good point, but I do not agree with them.
The reason I see it still as in Awe is because as we find ourselves among people stating our case and sharing our faith we can get blindsided by the appearance of something and lose sight of the path we are on.
I have witnessed this as a friend started to realize his worth in christ only to be dragged back into the lions den of religion so to speak due to the love he has for his wife. He practically worships her and could not bear to disappoint her so his reverence figuratively matches some of what you are saying. If the disciples were fooled by those Jesus warned them about, their sight towards God would be reduced and their mission would not be accomplished.
But I see it as not to revere anyone who can only manipulate you physically but does not have sovereign control over your soul. Only God could kill both the body and the soul. Even though God could do that, he will not so there is nothing to fear, yet the word fear is used, but I still believe its usage is AWE.
I see similar things in churches where the pastor is held in AWE by the congregation and due to that they are blinded to the truth of scripture. In fact I know two people in the church I left that do hold the pastor in awe and what he says goes.
Again, I may only be misunderstanding your point.
When I think of killing the soul, I think of someone destroying your thought processes. An example would be if I were walking in freedom serving Christ, and then I jointed a cult and then began to live in fear. That group would have destroyed my soul.
I also agree that everything doesn't have to be in context if God has shown you something. Look at the way the NT writers quote the OT.
Quote from: Sarah on September 04, 2008, 04:38:17 PM
When I think of killing the soul, I think of someone destroying your thought processes. An example would be if I were walking in freedom serving Christ, and then I jointed a cult and then began to live in fear. That group would have destroyed my soul.
I also agree that everything doesn't have to be in context if God has shown you something. Look at the way the NT writers quote the OT.
In my opinion the main reason I disagree with that is verses in the bible indicate that God can send a deluding spirit upon us for the sake of his purpose. So it really isn't the group that is capable of doing that.
If I am wrong about that I would think that it still isn't about a sect of humans because God can restore our soul even if humans have the ability to cause damage. They still do not ultimately have the ability to destroy it.
Now, an interesting thought has come to mind. This passage placed into the context of Eternal Torment /Separation and mans ability to choose his eternal destiny indeed would cause a true frightening fear since we are often told in these religious circles of mans ability to drag someone into hell with them.
Quote from: Sarah on September 04, 2008, 04:38:17 PM
When I think of killing the soul, I think of someone destroying your thought processes. An example would be if I were walking in freedom serving Christ, and then I jointed a cult and then began to live in fear. That group would have destroyed my soul.
(CEV) Don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul in hell.
(CLV) "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.
Sarah you speak of humans. But the verse seems to speak of God when destructing souls?
Humans seem to kill but God destroys.
Destroy
G622
ἀπόλλυμι
apollumi
ap-ol'-loo-mee
From G575 and the base of G3639; to destroy fully (reflexively to perish, or lose), literally or figuratively: - destroy, die, lose, mar, perish.
I would have expected somethink like punish and/or correct.
The above sounds like the soul goes completly out of existance.
What if, this thing being destroyed is not "the" soul as much as it is the "nature" of the soul, the "identity" of self. Soulishness is godlessness. And if we are spirits that are being led by godlessness . .then something's got to give for us to be able to recieve life in the Spirit . .and what gives is . . . the nature of my carnality, my natural thinking, my selfishness . . . it's the circumcision of the spirit. And it's not men doing the circumcising, we don't circumcise each other, it's the Spirit that cuts away the carnality in us . . we don't even circumcise ourselves . . .we submit to the sword . . .the Word of the Spirit. My soul is still entact, it's just had it's godless nature destroyed.
1 Corinthians 3
11For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receiv a reward.
15If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
We are all tried by fire. And we are all saved in the fire, but the things we build that are not of God, those things are what get destroyed, by the very same fire.
What if these worms were really worms and just like the fire that cannot be quenched, the worm dieth not? The fire cannot be quenched but will go out when it finishes its job and the worm won't die until it has nothing left to consume. A worm will not live even for an age I wouldn't think.
Since there was a Gehenna where human sacrifices were made, maybe Jesus was just referring to this city dumb to show another point. It was a parable and not the literal meaning of what Jesus was saying.
CHB
Quote from: Sarah on September 04, 2008, 04:38:17 PM
When I think of killing the soul, I think of someone destroying your thought processes. An example would be if I were walking in freedom serving Christ, and then I jointed a cult and then began to live in fear. That group would have destroyed my soul.
Correct.
QuoteI also agree that everything doesn't have to be in context if God has shown you something. Look at the way the NT writers quote the OT.
Correct.
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2008, 07:22:09 PM
(CEV) Don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul in hell.
(CLV) "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.
[You] speak of humans. But the verse seems to speak of God when destructing souls
Sarah is replying somewhat to my post White Wings, did you read my post to you?
Let me show you the original language, Matthew 10:28
"Kai mh phobeo apo ho apokteino ho soma ho de psuche me dunamai apokteino phobeo de mallon ho dunamai ka psuche kai soma apollumi en geena."
Do you see the word, "THEOS" in there? No, both say "ho" which means, "this, that, these, etc."
Psuche is also the word used for the seat of emotions, the passion, the desires.
So literally
Matthew 10:28 says,
And fear not that which can kill the body, but is not able to kill the "seat of emotion and desire of man": but rather fear that which is able to destroy both "seat of emotion and desire of man" and body in Gehenna.
That = the Apostate Jew. A metaphor for the religious of the world, who destroy people for the sake of tradition rather than submit to God.
Quote from: Paul HazelwoodMaybe I am misunderstanding your explanation based on the killing of the soul part of the verse, no matter what sect of humans your talking about or what they do, neither can kill the soul.
Western Christianity understanding says,
Body (Soma) + Soul (Psuche) + Spirit (Pneuma) = Mankind
So that is why you conclude the way you do. Man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul.
The Hebrew culture and understanding says,
Body (Soma) + Spirit (Pneuma) = Soul (Psuche)
Since Jesus was talking to Hebrews, especially directed towards the Disciples. Now understand that if this is what the Hebrew culture and understanding was then...Man can kill the body but that means the soul also is gone. It doesn't make sense. Therefore, Jesus could not have been meaning Psuche as in the being of person but the other definition of Psuche which is the drive, passion, emotion of mankind.
Believe me when I tell you, man can sap the drive, passion and emotion out of mankind especially when they are apostate and killing prophets, and those who do not adhere to their traditions which were not of God, just as the Apostate Israel.
The key to understanding is Gehenna, and why it came to being. It was because of those very irreligious, wicked apostate Jews, Gehenna was created. Gehenna came into being, because it stood for the warning against Israel of the coming judgment in which Israel would be cut off for their unbelief. The very soul of Israel would be destroyed by the very sinners of Zion.
Quote from: SOtW on September 05, 2008, 01:26:11 AM
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 04, 2008, 07:22:09 PM
(CEV) Don't be afraid of people. They can kill you, but they cannot harm your soul. Instead, you should fear God who can destroy both your body and your soul in hell.
(CLV) "And do not fear those who are killing the body, yet are not able to kill the soul. Yet be fearing Him, rather, Who is able to destroy the soul as well as the body in Gehenna.
[You] speak of humans. But the verse seems to speak of God when destructing souls
Sarah is replying somewhat to my post White Wings, did you read my post to you?
Yes Craig, I did read your post. Still not everything is clear after reading it so my questions may *seem* to indicate I didn't read it at all....
But I can tell you what causes my confusion if not obvious yet.
When I joined this board my little Biblical knowledge was literal. So really for ever and real fire. More or less and ET view that always conflicted with the love message of the Bible in my mind. Shortly after being here I learned that God is that fire. Refiners fire that cleans for a while. Likely a bad experience but only for a short time. So I start to see everything that involves soul/punishment/God as that fire.
Far to simplistic; yes I know. Another thing is that the soul/spirit have no physical presence so man by definition can't touch it.
So I simply assumed the destroyer has to be God. Another thing I learned on this board is torment vs correction/cleaning/education.
So I tried to find correction in that verse. Just because I assumed God the destroyer should read God the cleaner/corrector/educator.
So basicly I entered with nothing and now I have bits of info I have to learn to apply.
I think there is an English expression for it that fits this situation.
"If you only have a hammer not every problem is a nail."
Quote from: SOtW on September 05, 2008, 01:26:11 AM
So literally Matthew 10:28 says,
And fear not that which can kill the body, but is not able to kill the "seat of emotion and desire of man": but rather fear that which is able to destroy both "seat of emotion and desire of man" and body in Gehenna.
Don't fear them who can kill you for your belief in Christ; but fear them who can trick you into turning away from your belief in ChristIs the above quote correct?
Quote from: SOtW on September 05, 2008, 01:47:55 AM
Western Christianity understanding says,
Body (Soma) + Soul (Psuche) + Spirit (Pneuma) = Mankind
So that is why you conclude the way you do. Man can kill the body, but cannot kill the soul.
The Hebrew culture and understanding says,
Body (Soma) + Spirit (Pneuma) = Soul (Psuche)
Some truth in the drawing below?
(http://www.2and2.net/files/48c0c06043152.jpg)
http://www.2and2.net/my.php?image=http://www.2and2.net/files/48c0c06043152.jpg
Quote from: WhiteWings on September 05, 2008, 08:22:49 AM
Quote from: SOtW on September 05, 2008, 01:26:11 AM
So literally Matthew 10:28 says,
And fear not that which can kill the body, but is not able to kill the "seat of emotion and desire of man": but rather fear that which is able to destroy both "seat of emotion and desire of man" and body in Gehenna.
Don't fear them who can kill you for your belief in Christ; but fear them who can trick you into turning away from your belief in Christ
Is the above quote correct?
Exactly! :)
Matthew 23:15"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him
twice as much a son of
Gehenna as you are.
Matthew 10:28Do not be afraid of the one who kill the body but cannot kill the soul. Rather, be afraid of the one who can destroy
both soul and body in
Gehenna.