The Gay Issue

[martincisneros]

I think most people are Gay, because they are supposed to be Gay. Thats just the way God wanted it to unfold. People are of a certain race and culture, because they are supposed to be that way, through  no choice of their own. Many people are goodless in their belief, simply because they are supposed to be that way, God wanted a certain amount of Atheist to be in the population. And he wants that number maintained.

There are a certain amount of Gays, who are Gay by choice, they are far different than those who were born Gay. And I believe that many people are born Gay. In such cases, it is not by choice, but by nature. In such cases as being born Gay by nature, it simply cannot be helped, you are what you are. In these cases, I believe it to be by Gods actual will that this one was born Gay, and I think God wanted a certain number of them to be maintained in the population.

It is God that controls human population and nature, not human choice or sin.

Peace.

I just really wish the New Testament had said something about God doing all of this, instead of being so directly to the contrary.

[SeekerSA]

James

I do not have the time or inclination to rebut all the stuff you posted on stats but they will not convince anyone unless you can draw sources that will not appear biased viz godandscience.org.

I mentioned earlier that I found a stat on a xian board that suggested that 67% of folk who had a first same sex encounter turned out to be gay.  That of course to support the premise that it is a choice and not something genetic.  With that stat I should be gay as I did not just have one male encounter in my youth and yes I was brought up xian.

I am not ashamed to admit this but many folk will not hence how these studies are conducted are biased.  If you interview only homosexuals then you will get wrong stats.

Hetero males will likely never admit they had same sex encounters like mutual masturbation due to the embarrassment factor.

There are many folk that were married and had children and if you read their testimonies, it was peer/church pressure that forced them to live a lie.  The fact that folk are no longer ashamed to come out the closet, seems for many as a gay epidemic, but likely the numbers have always been the same.

If stoning them 5000 years ago did not make it go away, I lean to the plausibility that it is a genetic/mental thing.  I certainly would not "turn" gay as I am attracted to women.

[Mickiel]

/quote]
I just really wish the New Testament had said something about God doing all of this, instead of being so directly to the contrary.

Well there are many places in scripture, but it has to be seen. In example, it has already been listed that God " Gave them Over" to dishonorable passions, this scripture I think used by yourself. God is still in control here, he didNOT have to " Give them over", but he did. And it does not say " When" he gave them over, this " When" is not limited to a human that is unborn. I think God giving humans over, certainly includes manipulating their nature before they were born.

And I think he wanted a certain amount of Gay people to be maintained within the human population. Because I know for a FACT, that certain humans are born Gay. If a person is born a certain way, God CANNOT be exculded from responsibility, because he didNOT have to give them over to that birth.

Peace.

[martincisneros]

If stoning them 5000 years ago did not make it go away, I lean to the plausibility that it is a genetic/mental thing.

It is mental illness.  Severe mental illness.  If I cite my couple dozen or so sources, I already figure your rebuttal will be that they're right wing psychologists and psychiatrists or repressed or homophobes, so why bother, right?

[martincisneros]

Well there are many places in scripture, but it has to be seen. In example, it has already been listed that God " Gave them Over" to dishonorable passions, this scripture I think used by yourself. God is still in control here, he didNOT have to " Give them over", but he did. And it does not say " When" he gave them over, this " When" is not limited to a human that is unborn. I think God giving humans over, certainly includes manipulating their nature before they were born.

It says that God gave them over in Romans 1 as a judgment because they blew Him off when they had the opportunity to know Him fully.  It also cites unthankfulness, among the many reasons that it lists.  I've gotten quite a few delivered from it by getting them to give thanks for each detail of the finished work of Christ for a minimum of an hour a day.  There was a little more to it than that, than I'll get into right here, but that was the main thing that turned the key in the lock on their shackles and set them free from their bondage.

[Mickiel]

No matter what certain christian believers will try to do, no group of humans can be demonized over another. Not because of sexual orientation, not culture, not color. Not Sin. You cannot even use sin to demonize a group of humans over another. I don't care how mentally ill a human is, it was God who gave the birth, thus he cannot be excluded from responsibility for that mental illness, he could have prevented it. Holds PERFECT power to prevent it.

The parent cannot be excluded, the grandparents cannot be excluded, the creator of the Grandparents cannot be excluded from these generations.

It is STILL the tree in the garden, STILL goes back to God, who gave birth to ALL the generations.

Peace.

[martincisneros]

Whats this? Am I excluded because I do not share your or others POV?

How was it hypocrisy because he was thanking folks that were standing for what the Scriptures have to say about it?

[martincisneros]

I don't care how mentally ill a human is, it was God who gave the birth, thus he cannot be excluded from responsibility for that mental illness, he could have prevented it. Holds PERFECT power to prevent it.

God did try to prevent it by telling them what He required from them to obey, to walk in truth, justly, and humbly before their God, but Romans 1 says they refused.  So, when they refused, He backed away and let the devil have them who was seeking whom he could devour.  That's why God was trying to obligate Himself to their protection from it by a covenant union with getting them to do what He wanted them to do.  They turned a deaf ear, so, as in the case of Job, God simply said "Behold, they're in your power."  But He didn't place them there.  They placed themselves there by not taking every thought captive to the obedience of Christ and by not casting down imaginations that exalted themselves against the knowledge of Christ and His Word.  There was no covenant connection pertaining to the eon they were living in, but in their refusal of God they were making an alliance, or a covenant with Death and Hell, according to other Scriptures.  There's no question about the fact that God'll ultimately get them out of it, but that's what happened.  God wasn't their temptation according to James chapter 1.

[Mickiel]

The condemning christians brought a woman to Christ who they caught in an sexual act of sin. Jesus steadfastly refused to condemn the woman. Stoodfast in her forgiveness, this is what he will do to homosexuals, its their destiny to meet Christ, yet also their destiny to be condemned by Christians now.

Peace.

[martincisneros]

If you can prove to me that there is a culture where gays do not exist, I may change my opinion.  For you to do that will require a non-biblical approach/study/research.

I can cite one before I even hit the books on it.  I know for a fact that there's not a single gay in the whole nation of Iran.

[martincisneros]

The condemning christians brought a woman to Christ who they caught in an sexual act of sin. Jesus steadfastly refused to condemn the woman. Stoodfast in her forgiveness, this is what he will do to homosexuals, its their destiny to meet Christ, yet also their destiny to be condemned by Christians now.

But did Jesus legitimize her sin in the way that you're legitimizing and blessing theirs'?  You've just admitted that He will forgive homosexuals, but a minute ago you said that God created them to be that way.  Why does He need to forgive them if He made them to be that way?

[martincisneros]

http://bible-truths.com/homosex.htm

[DeeDee]

Wow this thread has sure brought up some topics (in private chat / e-mail). This and the Sodom and Gommorah issue. I have partially read the scriptures that concern homosexuality again and have come to realise that there is no way around what is said. It is very clearly looked down upon in the bible, in fact I did not realise how much the bible refers to this specific thing. In saying that, I say again that I have honestly met so many wonderful people throughout my life. Some gay and some straight. People are people and we are NOT allowed to judge (as I have said so many times before). Only God is allowed to place judgement. We all have free will and freedom of choice, God does not force us to do anything, not even to accept Him. It is these peoples choice in the end of the day, in saying that I must add as long as they are not hurting anyone else by their actions. As for what will happen to them come judgement time / day, that is ultimately up to God to decide, and since God is always fair and just, each person (not just the gays) will get their fair trial and punishment. We could argue over this "already gone to far" topic for ever and never come to an agreement. All we are doing is hurting others by it and getting ourselves all riled up. It is a delicate issue, I know - and it is a very tough subject, but people I think its time to let this one go.

Blessings
DeeDee