The Gay Issue

[Paul Hazelwood]

Still doesn't make the case for a lesbian couple which actually have less risk than promiscuous heterosexual activity and non anal activity of any sort.  Of course then we need to add in the heterosexual males who perform anal sex on women.

Be more specific,  bring your websters, you've not made any case at all , you have only added to the pool of people your going to have to execute.


Citing past laws are irrevalent unless we should burn witches at the stake again.

Actually, it would be really good to get rid of the occult from our country at absolutely any cost.  A lot of substance abuse and other types of issues would lift from this country if we succeeded where Salem and other places horribly failed.  (There's layers of history: official versions, historical revisions from later authors, and actual diaries and other primary sources.)

I've had lesbian roommates in years past and they do anything and more than their male counterparts do and I won't get into specifics on the boards.  But trust me, Lesbians do everything the men do and more.  It's misinformation to say that Lesbians don't engage in anal activity.

I am glad salem failed as the whole idea of that nonsense is wrong, if your making the case specific to homosexuals through all of this,  ok.  After you make your full case and add all the other behaviors that fall into place with the same criteria, please, turn yourself in, because they will find you eventually.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I've had lesbian roommates in years past and they do anything and more than their male counterparts do and I won't get into specifics on the boards.  But trust me, Lesbians do everything the men do and more.  It's misinformation to say that Lesbians don't engage in anal activity.

Your equating behavior as equal risk to the gender,  the medical stats show another story.

[martincisneros]

I am glad salem failed as the whole idea of that nonsense is wrong, if your making the case specific to homosexuals through all of this,  ok.  After you make your full case and add all the other behaviors that fall into place with the same criteria, please, turn yourself in, because they will find you eventually.

Huh??  For what sin??  No thanks, I'll continue to walk in the light as He's in the light.

[martincisneros]

Your equating behavior as equal risk to the gender,  the medical stats show another story.

You're selectively reading the stats.  Look at the stats of the numbers that [conservatively or minimally] haven't gone to get checked out medically yet.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I am glad salem failed as the whole idea of that nonsense is wrong, if your making the case specific to homosexuals through all of this,  ok.  After you make your full case and add all the other behaviors that fall into place with the same criteria, please, turn yourself in, because they will find you eventually.

Huh??  For what sin??  No thanks, I'll continue to walk in the light as He's in the light.

Well, of course they will tell you what you did and you may see your own writing.

[martincisneros]

Well, of course they will tell you what you did and you may see your own writing.

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God. Receive me; I have wronged no man, I have corrupted no man, I have defrauded no man. I speak not this to condemn you: for I have said before, that ye are in our hearts to die and live with you. Great is my boldness of speech toward you, great is my glorying of you: I am filled with comfort, I am exceeding joyful in all our tribulation. (2Corinthians 7:1-4)

[Paul Hazelwood]

Your equating behavior as equal risk to the gender,  the medical stats show another story.

You're selectively reading the stats.  Look at the stats of the numbers that [conservatively or minimally] haven't gone to get checked out medically yet.

What you find is that this issue is not inclusive to gays.  You cannot accuratly give a stat for speculation which is what you do when you say there are some that have not been checked out.

Promiscuous anal sex carries a risk,  but we are also talking about a behavior that is not exclusive to homosexuals.   You can have anal sex and not be Gay.


Make the case for a monogomous homosexual couple that comes out and wants to get married, they go to the doctor, get tested for disease, they check out.  

Why do they deserve jail time?

[reFORMer]

No, in a democracy, minority also have rights.  That is why you have a constitution.  The right want a theocracy, look how well that works in Iran.

You are referring to a religious dictatorship.  In a theocracy God is the direct and immediate ruler of each person.  In a religious dictatorship there is a religous elite who pull the strings.  Before they had a king, Israel was a theocracy.  Their law said those who had been found in homosexual acts (no consideration was made for their age) were to be taken outside the city and the leaders of that city were to stone them to death.  Papa could then take his child out and show him the pile of stones and explain.  Of course, Scripture notes as time passed they didn't obey their covenant with God and instead had periods (as one of the books of the Kings noted) when "the sodomite was in the land."

Gays are generally kind passive folk but will get riled when you mess with their liberties.

13 or the first 15 Roman Emporers were homosexuals.  A passive and kind lot!  When confronted with a particularly gruesome murder, criminal profilers assume it was done by a homosexual until some information to the contrary is known.  Gays commit a significantly higher percentage of murders than the general population.

You admitted you do not know really what makes them tick yet you wander off judgmentally no problems thus you are not only a bigot but also a hypocrite.  If what they do is sin, what sin did Jesus not cover?  Being gay is only unpardonable in the eyes of the church no one else.  In 5000 years of recorded history, all attempts to disenfranchise them has not made it go away.

The issue is not whether homosexual acts are forgiven or unpardonable.  In the degree that men continue in sin they are just so much against God.  The Church preaches the forgiveness of sin in Jesus' name; but, as a Royal Priesthood and a holy people cannot welcome in their midst (other than fleeting guests) those who would approve of continuing in sin.  This is doubly true of those who would be participting as we minister to one another.

While humankind copulate, gays will be born.

Unless their defense of homosexuality being a genetic pre-disposition proves to be right.  Then almost any  happily married certainly heterosexual couple would be sure to have any fetus with that defect aborted.

[reFORMer]

I'm perfectly willing to discuss gay rights after we've discussed infanticide rights, Hitler's rights, theives rights, murderers rights, rapists rights, child abusers rights, blasphemers rights, genocide rights, false religions rights, human sacrifice rights, liars rights, demons rights, necrophilias rights, etc.

The soul that sinneth shall surely die!

AMEN!  That death is offered through Jesus.  We all can have freedom from sins through repentance and following the Holy Spirit.  Devotion to sin is not the condition that benefits from forgiveness of sin.  "The law is for the lawless."  The people of God may draw a line and say, "Not in my church.  Not in my land!"  Love considers others.

[reFORMer]

I'm waiting for an explaination of the parallel between a gay person and a murderer without religious bias.

The boy taken advantage of by his whoever was told by those around him it's OK, be gay. So, he did.  The beautiful children he would have raised, their special contribution to humanity never existed because?

Show why secular law should not then jail gays if indeed such a parallel exists.

God's rule for the state has no jails.  He mandated death for this crime.  That is part of why Jesus died!

[reFORMer]

Show why secular law should not then jail gays if indeed such a parallel exists.

The laws were on the books years ago to this effect, but I'm not sure if they were in every state constitution until such and such a date that those laws became unpopular.  I'd be happy to see the prosecutions.  It's lawlessness on the part of the unrighteousness according to 1Timothy 1.

Here in Georgia you can still get 35 years in jail for homosexual sodomy.  These were the kind of laws that existed most places until people like Whitman.

[reFORMer]

Crossing the boundries in this issue of secular law and our responsibility as believers to maintain what the bible says does not address the issue.

I can make the case against murder without the bible.

I can make the biblical case to a murderer in terms of sharing that God still loves the murderer.

I am still waiting for the case against homosexuality to be made without the bible.
That issue is no more vital than wanting Porkrind Patty to shed 500 lbs.

..............

We can find that the harmful sins that we wish to use secular law against can be reasoned without religious instruction in the first place.

If there is one concerning homosexuality, bring it.

They have no children.

That is a long term destruction.  Enough people gay = the end of the human race!  Obvious sister sin to murder.

In the short term, having no children, only spending on themselves, they raise the property values as they begin to take over a neighborhood.  People trying to raise children can't afford to live there any longer.  The raising of property values has a domino effect...

Over a period of time, not having the demands to relate to someone other than themselves, only relating to someone like themselves, makes them very intolerant.  This, getting the upper hand through jobs in the government bureaucracies, as in ancient World Empires, makes for cruel societies.

The reality is most male homosexuals are very promiscuous and sexually transmited diseases are rampant.  This destroys childbearing.  This also means they statistically live shorter lives.

[rosered]

and dont forget suicides  ReFormer  , they are High in the gay and lesbian comunity , especially the youth , sad but true  reality  :sigh:

[martincisneros]

Over a period of time, not having the demands to relate to someone other than themselves, only relating to someone like themselves, makes them very intolerant.  This, getting the upper hand through jobs in the government bureaucracies, as in ancient World Empires, makes for cruel societies.

And I have hung out with enough of them and been to enough of their websites, concerts, and other special events, conventions, and whatever to know that this is still the goal.  Besides having a lesbian roommate for a few months, I was free help with carrying and setting up equipment, the computer, printing, and other things for a gay photographer that went everywhere doing photo shoots, if anyone's wondering how I was so deeply emersed in their culture yet without sin in that regard.  My curiosities were mainly regarding photography, but God used it to open my eyes very wide about underlying agendas and paradigms. 

If they were ever classified as a race, then you could easily make the argument that they're on a racial superiority [slightly growing genocidal] kick, for want of a better way of putting it.  They despise and make private demeaning and inferiority jokes all of the time about straights that they view as universally being hypocrites for not letting their inner queer out of the closet.  You can guess what they tried to peer pressure me into more than once, but I wasn't about to go for that!  I eventually won the respect to be able to say whatever I wanted to them, with their knowing full well that I wasn't being a hypocrite about it.  And as soon as all of that was in my life for the first 3 or 4 years of this decade, it vanished as suddenly and I haven't been in contact with any of them since, but they knew about me, my Christian ministry, etc., the whole time.  (I'm not hard to google, and many of them did and asked me about this and that.)  It was a miraculous pulling back of the veil that God did that I never one time asked for, and though you can't stereotype about specific individuals, what I've described and what ReFORMer has described is pretty much "the culture."

[Paul Hazelwood]

They have no children.

Many  hetero sexual couples do not ever have children either, some by choice.

That is a long term destruction.  Enough people gay = the end of the human race!  Obvious sister sin to murder.

You cannot keep increasing the number of gays without heterosexual breeding, so thats not a factor.

In the short term, having no children, only spending on themselves, they raise the property values as they begin to take over a neighborhood.  People trying to raise children can't afford to live there any longer.  The raising of property values has a domino effect...

Irrevalent to making a law against homosexuality since single people buy homes as well and then you have the couples that never have children. 

Over a period of time, not having the demands to relate to someone other than themselves, only relating to someone like themselves, makes them very intolerant.  This, getting the upper hand through jobs in the government bureaucracies, as in ancient World Empires, makes for cruel societies.

Irrevalent to laws against homsexuality, people are intolerant across gender, racial and lifestyle lines.

The reality is most male homosexuals are very promiscuous and sexually transmited diseases are rampant.  This destroys childbearing.  This also means they statistically live shorter lives.

If this is behavior that warrants lawful action I can entertain it to a point, however, you have brought nothing that shows that homosexuals should be jailed for being homosexual.

The reality is irrevalent to the issue since no one is trying to jail promiscuous heterosexuals for engaging in risky behavior that spreads disease.  Why bypass them and start on gays?   If you want to include them both, ok, but you have not shown anything that sets homosexuality apart.

I am not justifying one behavior in light of another, what I am saying is when you can make the justifiable case of jail time for  two monogomous gays that want to be married
, go to the doctor and are shown to be disease free, then spell it out.


You will not be able to.   Risky behavior is another matter all together and that behavior is an issue that goes beyond homosexuality.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm waiting for an explaination of the parallel between a gay person and a murderer without religious bias.

The boy taken advantage of by his whoever was told by those around him it's OK, be gay. So, he did.  The beautiful children he would have raised, their special contribution to humanity never existed because?

Thats not a parallel to murder.  Who was killed?

What if the kid he raised ended up being a serial killer, maybe the kid he raised killed 20 people on a subway, maybe the kid he has just ends up comitting suicide out of fear of someone finding out he thinks he's gay.

[martincisneros]

The reality is irrevalent to the issue since no one is trying to jail promiscuous heterosexuals for engaging in risky behavior that spreads disease.  Why bypass them and start on gays?   If you want to include them both, ok, but you have not shown anything that sets homosexuality apart.

Agreed.  They should all be prosecuted to the maximum extent.

9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom. (1Corinthians 6:9-10)

[Paul Hazelwood]

The reality is irrevalent to the issue since no one is trying to jail promiscuous heterosexuals for engaging in risky behavior that spreads disease.  Why bypass them and start on gays?   If you want to include them both, ok, but you have not shown anything that sets homosexuality apart.

Agreed.  They should all be prosecuted to the maximum extent.

ok, now the monogomous gay couple, checked for disease, disease free and wants to get married?

[Paul Hazelwood]

9 Or are you not aware that the unjust shall not be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom? Be not deceived. Neither paramours, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor catamites, nor sodomites,
10 nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards; no revilers, no extortioners shall be enjoying the allotment of God's kingdom. (1Corinthians 6:9-10)

Gods kingdom is spiritual and God has the sovereign right to cleanse and purify all those people.   Can you do so through law?

These are not verses justifying the jailing or executing of people that do not march to our beliefs.

[martincisneros]

ok, now the monogomous gay couple, checked for disease, disease free and wants to get married?

Nope, no cigar.  Nothing in Scripture gives legitimacy to monogomous homosexuality.  It's predamned same as every other sin.  It's like saying that as long as I'm only lying to one person, or only killing one person, or only stealing from one person, then it's supposed to be okay.  By definition in Scripture it's automatically wrong.  The Word wasn't just dealing with prostitution when it condemned these acts, although gay people try to act as though their "lifestyle" is something "new" under the sun that was completely unknown by the ancients.  That's bull.

16 For not ashamed am I of the evangel, for it is God's power for salvation to everyone who is believing -- to the Jew first, and to the Greek as well.
17 For in it God's righteousness is being revealed, out of faith for faith, according as it is written: "Now the just one by faith shall be living."
18 For God's indignation is being revealed from heaven on all the irreverence and injustice of men who are retaining the truth in injustice,
19 because that which is known of God is apparent among them, for God manifests it to them.
20 For His invisible attributes are descried from the creation of the world, being apprehended by His achievements, besides His imperceptible power and divinity, for them to be defenseless,
21 because, knowing God, not as God do they glorify or thank Him, but vain were they made in their reasonings, and darkened is their unintelligent heart.
22 Alleging themselves to be wise, they are made stupid,
23 and they change the glory of the incorruptible God into the likeness of an image of a corruptible human being and flying creatures and quadrupeds and reptiles.
24 Wherefore God gives them over, in the lusts of their hearts, to the uncleanness of dishonoring their bodies among themselves,
25 those who alter the truth of God into the lie, and are venerated, and offer divine service to the creature rather than the Creator, Who is blessed for the eons! Amen!
26 Therefore God gives them over to dishonorable passions. For their females, besides, alter the natural use into that which is beside nature.
27 Likewise also the males, besides, leaving the natural use of the female, were inflamed in their craving for one another, males with males effecting indecency, and getting back in themselves the retribution of their deception which must be.
28 And according as they do not test God, to have Him in recognition, God gives them over to a disqualified mind, to do that which is not befitting,
29 filled with all injustice, wickedness, evil, greed, distended with envy, murder, strife, guile, depravity, whisperers,
30 vilifiers, detesters of God, outragers, proud, ostentatious, inventors of evil things, stubborn to parents,
31 unintelligent, perfidious, without natural affection, implacable, unmerciful:
32 those who, recognizing the just statute of God, that those committing such things are deserving of death, not only are doing them, but are endorsing, also, those who are committing them. (Romans 1:16-32)

[martincisneros]

Yes Cigar because we are not talking about biblical law.  Try again.

What do you mean try again?  Those that aren't inheriting the Kingdom of God aren't getting God's blessing over it.  He's demanding that they die in the Second Death and the Biblical pattern that was written for our sakes, those of us upon whom the ends of the ages have come, declares that those that are under the curse of God should die from this life as well.

[martincisneros]

So can you make the case against a Gay monogomous disease free couple without the bible or not?

So, you're saying that the Bible is not the standard of the truth for this life?  Then what's the point if it can't be relied upon?  If I can't trust it's standards for this life, then I'd be completely out of my mind to trust it's message about my eternity!

[martincisneros]

Are you sinless Martin?  What reasoning do you have for not going to the police and turning yourself in for breaking Gods laws?

In Christ, yes, I am the righteousness of God.  What has that got to do with anything that you're talking about?  He never set aside the standards of the Word or made light of them in dispensing compassion, in the way that Bernie would imply or straight out say.  What has my having been set free by the law of the spirit of life in Christ Jesus from the law of sin and death got to do with where you're going with this?

[Craig]

I agree with Martin in the type of reasoning being used to prove a point...

[martincisneros]

So you do deny the Bible's place in all things that pertain to life and godliness.  Just wanted to make sure.  Thanks for clarifying your position.