The Gay Issue

[Molly]

No one has the right to educate my children to believe that God is a myth.

Agreed, and you do not have the right to educate an atheists children that he is real.

No one has the right to teach my children that the theory of evolution is science.

It is science, so you are ignorant of science and so are christians that think Creationism is science.

Secularism is a religion.

Secularism is a label that is given by Christians to anyone who does not march to their drum beat.  And  has nothing to do with the problems this society battles.

The oppression and abuse of others has nothing to do with those labeled as Godless as Godless people have done the same thing in Gods name.

Evolution is not a science, it's a theory and it should be taught as a theory if taught at all.  Actually this is going to fall of its own weight eventually because there are too many things coming out that contradict it as a theory, even though attempts to suppress the truth continue.

Since words are the first thing to go, let's look at an actual definition

"Secularism"
Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.


The atheists and the gays telling the schools what they should be educating children about in a Christian country is just more of the tyranny of the minority.  Nevertheless, lots of concessions have been made to them, but parents are drawing the line at indoctrinating elementary children into the gay lifestyle.  Good for them.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I see the assertion of murderers = gays when it comes to the laws and rights in our society.

Would like to see that correlation made with reason and logic and the lack of religious bias.

[Paul Hazelwood]

Evolution is not a science, it's a theory and it should be taught as a theory if taught at all.  Actually this is going to fall of its own weight eventually because there are too many things coming out that contradict it as a theory, even though attempts to suppress the truth continue.

Like I said you are ignorant of science.

The atheists and the gays telling the schools what they should be educating children about in a Christian country is just more of the tyranny of the minority.  Nevertheless, lots of concessions have been made to them, but parents are drawing the line at indoctrinating elementary children into the gay lifestyle.  Good for them

Your missing the whole point, this is not a christian nation, we are not a theocratic society.   The Christians waged the war of theocracy and whine when those they oppose use the same system to promote what they want the same way.

Fight the battle and quit your whining if thats where you want to fight.

[Molly]

Evolution is not a science, it's a theory and it should be taught as a theory if taught at all.  Actually this is going to fall of its own weight eventually because there are too many things coming out that contradict it as a theory, even though attempts to suppress the truth continue.

Like I said you are ignorant of science.

The atheists and the gays telling the schools what they should be educating children about in a Christian country is just more of the tyranny of the minority.  Nevertheless, lots of concessions have been made to them, but parents are drawing the line at indoctrinating elementary children into the gay lifestyle.  Good for them

Your missing the whole point, this is not a christian nation, we are not a theocratic society.   The Christians waged the war of theocracy and whine when those they oppose use the same system to promote what they want the same way.

Fight the battle and quit your whining if thats where you want to fight.

You refuse to accept that secularism is a religion which is being taught in public schools.

I have an advanced degree in science and yet you call me ignorant.

If you would just look at what happened in the Russian revolution, you would understand that secularism is a religion.  And, unlike the Christians in this country, they kill their opponents if given the chance.

[Molly]

Paul and I seem to be tolerant and understanding and playing "devils advocate".  Heard of the term "shiny mirror"?

I don't find you very tolerant of me, even though I am speaking for the status quo, and what this country was founded on.

Unfortunately, you can be so tolerant that you compromise yourself out of existence.

I say Jesus would have accepted the gays for who they are - His love was not conditional. His love would bring about change were it a sin but IMO it is not.  How can we preach UR which tolerates much but slams gays? BTW we have a gay member and I sent him an email to join us in this discussion.

This is the only place I know it is mentioned in the New Testament.  Oops is this crimespeak yet?


9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

--1 Cor 6:8


That's a pretty big group.

[martincisneros]

Bernie,

The Holy Spirit and the Scriptures never call us to be tolerant of something that the Scriptures won't tolerate in both Testaments.  And St. Paul made this an inheritance or noninheritance of the kingdom of God issue.  This isn't one of those things where people are just people, as if we were talking about the simple difference between people that drive Fords and those that drive Toyotas.

2John, while talking about the doctrine of Christ, which would mean or include the things that the New Testament teaches about the things pertaining to the Kingdom says that you can't bid participants in these sins Godspeed, otherwise you're judged as an actual participator in their crimes against God.  This would translate to me that "tolerance" of this sin would likewise equal not inheriting the Kingdom of God.

Tolerance of people?  ALWAYS!!  But this issue of homosexuality is an issue of sin and it's not justified by a trillion books on queer theory or a trillion homosexuals being on the planet.  It's not a legitimate alternative with the blessings of heaven.  Under no circumstances will it ever be.  Easily 5 billion people on the planet lie at least once in a typical week.  Does that make lying an acceptable alternative lifestyle, even with varying laws on the legal books about levels, degrees, and subjects of what lies are along with varying degrees of penalties and where the courts might find something "justifyable"?  No it doesn't.  And let people's emotions be whatever they may ever be, but that'll never give legitimacy to a reprobate mind.

[SeekerSA]

"Secularism"
Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

Your definition.

How is it that you now say it IS a religion and demand it be accepted as such?

"Secularism"
Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

Earlier you admitted that the USA standard is low.  Who else has a secular approach?  Europe, how do they fair on the world "top 20"?  I'll leave you to determine that.

Secularism would deny Muslims pushing their agenda too and as far as I know, prayer is allowed in schools so long as it does not interfere with other activities like allowed in breaks.  It is the same here.  At the school my daughter attends, the only one in out town (high school) the principal opens Mondays with prayer and a reading from the bible and we are a secular state now.  Atheists are allowed to stand outside during this part of the opening as too are those of other faiths.  Christianity is still the No. 1 religion here

This however is a school by school decision.  Faith is not taught apart from a subject that looks at all faiths (13) of the country.

[SeekerSA]

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

What is sexually immoral?  It comes right back to sleeping with the neighbor. Consistency.

BTW these were Paul's words not Jesus. and notice they are aimed at males.

The gays look at us and see that a minister can be a divorcee, remarry and is accepted - his/her sins are swept under the rug.

You may not find me tolerant but in Jesus' words, "He who is without sin cast the first stone"

[martincisneros]

Hi Bernie,

I can't cite the particular court cases because I heard this info a pretty long time ago, but the U.S. Supreme Court in different instances has legally defined in the United States that Secularism, Atheism, Humanism, and Witchcraft are religions in U.S. Juris Prudence.  It's one of the few things where what you might consider intolerably right wing organizations would likely be helpful for you 'cause they could probably reply to an inquiry about that in a matter of minutes as to which cases, which years, and what they were about when those definitions of religion became part of the legal rulings.

[Molly]

"Secularism"
Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

Your definition.

How is it that you now say it IS a religion and demand it be accepted as such?

"Secularism"
Religious skepticism or indifference.
The view that religious considerations should be excluded from civil affairs or public education.

Earlier you admitted that the USA standard is low.  Who else has a secular approach?  Europe, how do they fair on the world "top 20"?  I'll leave you to determine that.

Secularism would deny Muslims pushing their agenda too and as far as I know, prayer is allowed in schools so long as it does not interfere with other activities like allowed in breaks.  It is the same here.  At the school my daughter attends, the only one in out town (high school) the principal opens Mondays with prayer and a reading from the bible and we are a secular state now.  Atheists are allowed to stand outside during this part of the opening as too are those of other faiths.  Christianity is still the No. 1 religion here

This however is a school by school decision.  Faith is not taught apart from a subject that looks at all faiths (13) of the country.

Since words are the first thing to go let's look at the definition of religion

Main Entry: re·li·gion
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith



There you go.  I think secularism and its high priest 'science' would qualify as a religion.

[Molly]

9Do you not know that the wicked will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: Neither the sexually immoral nor idolaters nor adulterers nor male prostitutes nor homosexual offenders 10nor thieves nor the greedy nor drunkards nor slanderers nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God.

What is sexually immoral?  It comes right back to sleeping with the neighbor. Consistency.

BTW these were Paul's words not Jesus. and notice they are aimed at males.

The gays look at us and see that a minister can be a divorcee, remarry and is accepted - his/her sins are swept under the rug.

You may not find me tolerant but in Jesus' words, "He who is without sin cast the first stone"

well, but if they are openly practicing it, what then?

If the minister is openly having adulterous heterosexual affairs with the congregation, what then?

[Paul Hazelwood]

Since words are the first thing to go let's look at the definition of religion

Main Entry: re·li·gion
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

There you go.  I think secularism and its high priest 'science' would qualify as a religion.

The basic principals of science are not faith or any type of religious attitude, what you can point out about individuals who misunderstand the scientific method or operate within the scientific community apart from this should be discussed on an individual basis.

But the core of the scientific method is why science once stated that the earth was flat and now it does not.  The change in what are accepted mainstream scientific statements has nothing to do with dogmatic assertions that something should not be that way.

Creationism could actually be in science class, but the christians will have to accept that their scientific platform points to a God as the cause as much as it does for the universe being a crystal globe on an aliens nightstand.


Secularism.   yes lets talk definitions.


sec·u·lar·ism    (sěk'yə-lə-rĭz'əm)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   
1.Religious skepticism or indifference.


Christians practice secularism because they are skeptical of other religious practices other than their own.

You are practicing secularism because you are skeptical of secularism since you maintain that it qualifies as religious.

[Paul Hazelwood]

I'm waiting for an explaination of the parallel between a gay person and a murderer without religious bias.

Show why secular law should not then jail gays if indeed such a parallel exists.

[Molly]

I'm waiting for an explaination of the parallel between a gay person and a murderer without religious bias.

Show why secular law should not then jail gays if indeed such a parallel exists.

I don't think there is one.

Being gay is not against the law.

well, there are some old laws on the books like sodomy but I don't they are enforced any more, are they?

[SeekerSA]

You may not find me tolerant but in Jesus' words, "He who is without sin cast the first stone"

well, but if they are openly practicing it, what then?

If the minister is openly having adulterous heterosexual affairs with the congregation, what then?

He usually gets caught, remember the one that had his assistant/parishioner strip and he had sex in his office with her, a married woman?

I am talking of ministers that are supposed to be leaders and get divorced, remarry and still preach.  We have one megachurch here Rhema and Ray McAuley is now going through his 2nd divorce, the latter he married within 6 months and apparently was having an affair while married to his 1st wife.  He was a student of Kennith Hagen.

[Nathan]

It seems to me that when a man has intimate relations with another man, he is abusing the temple of God and using it in a way that it was never intended to be used.  When a man is having an aduterous affair, he is abusing his relationship with his wife, which has severe consequences of it's own, but it's not the same as defiling the temple . . .there is to much that we don't know when it's dealing with some sins being more severe than others in order to pass a judgment of who is more wrong.

[Molly]

Since words are the first thing to go let's look at the definition of religion

Main Entry: re·li·gion
1 a : the state of a religious <a nun in her 20th year of religion> b (1) : the service and worship of God or the supernatural (2) : commitment or devotion to religious faith or observance
2 : a personal set or institutionalized system of religious attitudes, beliefs, and practices
3 archaic : scrupulous conformity : CONSCIENTIOUSNESS
4 : a cause, principle, or system of beliefs held to with ardor and faith

There you go.  I think secularism and its high priest 'science' would qualify as a religion.

The basic principals of science are not faith or any type of religious attitude, what you can point out about individuals who misunderstand the scientific method or operate within the scientific community apart from this should be discussed on an individual basis.

But the core of the scientific method is why science once stated that the earth was flat and now it does not.  The change in what are accepted mainstream scientific statements has nothing to do with dogmatic assertions that something should not be that way.

Creationism could actually be in science class, but the christians will have to accept that their scientific platform points to a God as the cause as much as it does for the universe being a crystal globe on an aliens nightstand.


Secularism.   yes lets talk definitions.


sec·u·lar·ism    (sěk'yə-lə-rĭz'əm)  Pronunciation Key 
n.   
1.Religious skepticism or indifference.


Christians practice secularism because they are skeptical of other religious practices other than their own.

You are practicing secularism because you are skeptical of secularism since you maintain that it qualifies as religious.

No lol.  I have my religion, they have theirs.  And, they make sure I know that only an idiot would believe in God.  That's part of their secular belief system so I don't take it personally.

As for science, there is a lot of leap of faith that goes on in science all the time.   But to call the theory of evolution science is too big a leap.  It violates the necessity that science has for proof.  Same thing for Creationism, another equivalent theory.  They should be taught together or not at all.

You would think that after 100 years they would have some proof for evolution other than one they made up by gluing the jaw of an ape to the head of a man which nevertheless stood in the 'scientific' community as proof for 50 years because nobody believes that a scientist would lie (that's part of their secular belief system).

[martincisneros]

But with UR, all will inherit the kingdom in an afterlife scenario, granted it may not happen in the here and now but I defer to what Jesus taught before Paul - the stoning of the adulteress.

Though any kicked out will be restored in a latter age, all will not inherit the Kingdom.  Many will forever forfeit rights, priveleges, power, and the ability to serve creation on the level of Christ. 

Philippians 3:18-19 says: For many walk, of whom I often told you, and now tell you even weeping, that they are enemies of the cross of Christ, whose end is destruction, whose god is their appetite, and whose glory is in their shame, who set their minds on earthly things. 

And 1Corinthians 15 says:  As star differs from star in glory, so also is the resurrection of the dead.

Tolerance of people has to extend to afford them equal rights under secular law.

1Timothy 1 says that the law is for restraining sodomites, otherwise it's a lawless land.

Preachers that bash the gays invariably are projecting their own weakness but not all the time but high profile ones.

All things do not continue as they were from the foundation of the world.  Preachers that preach the Word are not invariably projecting their own weakness.  When Jesus condemned the hypocrisy of the Pharisees in Matthew 23, was He projecting His own weakness?  When St. Paul said that homosexuals were people under judgment, was he projecting his own weakness?  I know that you said "not all the time," but neither is it always the high profile ones.

It is our bigotry/hypocrisy  that drives these folk away from God. You say reprobate mind which assumes that you do not give credence to folk being born this way.

All people are born sinners, but we must all likewise repent or be destroyed, both for the ages and with the loss of Kingdom blessings for eternity although all people will be restored.  The Church doesn't drive people away from God.  That's an excuse but not a reason.  Their sin drives them away from God because they're under judgment, fear, and condemnation that has come 1000 times more from the knowledge of their own sin than from anything that anyone has ever said to them.  John 3:20 says that everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.  Ephesians 2:2-3 calls them children of disobedience and children of wrath.  1John 3 says that those that practice righteousness are righteousness, and 1John 3:10 says that these people that commit these sinful acts are not children of God.  1Peter 1:17 says that if these people call upon Him as Father, then they must conduct themselves in their sojourn here on the earth in reverence, and there's nothing reverent about a homosexual lifestyle.  On the contrary, the dozens of them that I've known personally over the years have had the vilest, most blasphemous mouths of anyone that I've ever known.  There is no middle ground regarding sin.  But those that call upon the Name of the Lord will be saved.

[Molly]

well, there are some old laws on the books like sodomy but I don't they are enforced any more, are they?

Sodomy occurs in heterosexual relationships too.

It looks like you think gays have all rights so long as they remain in the closet - unless you have the kingdom kops like they have in Saudi Arabia,how will anyone know, do we know how many xians practice oral sex?  Do we care?

It all boils down to different strokes for different folks but the xians want to dictate what those are.

The Christians have far too many black eyes with sodomy, pedophilia, and incest in their own ranks to be taken seriously.  So how can we judge them?

without sin here is a stone...

So what are you arguing?

That two wrongs make a right?

[martincisneros]

Show why secular law should not then jail gays if indeed such a parallel exists.

The laws were on the books years ago to this effect, but I'm not sure if they were in every state constitution until such and such a date that those laws became unpopular.  I'd be happy to see the prosecutions.  It's lawlessness on the part of the unrighteousness according to 1Timothy 1.

[SeekerSA]

So what are you arguing?

That two wrongs make a right?

No. Beam in eye ministry does not work, Jesus taught that.

What the gays are accused of christians do themselves.  The christians get caught and their piousness is exposed, the gays hide nothing and do not pretend to be righteous but revel when a high profile Christan is caught with their pants down and there have been many lately.  Christians cannot live up to the standards by which they judge others hence Jesus said, "Judge not, in the same way you give it you will get it back"

[martincisneros]

Martin go tell this to a gay or a transsexual and see how far that theory flies.

I have.  Some of the leaders in the UR message happen to struggle with this, and they've at first argued with me FIERCELY on this and then have asked for continued prayer as they've fought it tooth and nail to come out from this flesh bondage.  I've had some of them drive hundreds of miles to come and get me and try to set me straight on this [because of what they thought was an obnoxious email on my part] and by the end of the evening they were crying and praying with me for their deliverance.

Sadly the rest of what you posted is a mantra of the ET camp.  Salvation is dependent on what we do. Armenianism?

I won't change what the book says about individual responsibility, just because the ETers take it to unBiblical extremes with eternal separation and/or torment.  No, God won't fail to fulfill all of His promises of both destruction and restoration just because man drops the ball on his end of things.  But we can limit the number of cookies in our own cookie jars that we get when we get to heaven.

If God says I create both evil and good, and the famous Romans 9 potter clay Calvinist approach, ultimately, that makes the buck stop with God not man.  Yet both camps ironically have their own special way of condemning the gay.

Romans 9 is about nations, Israel in particular.  The Isaiah passage is about the evils that were coming upon Israel and leading to Babylonian captivity.  Jesus said that the thief comes to steal, kill, and destroy, but God has come so that people would have life and have it more abundantly.  The devil doesn't give life and that more abundantly, and God doesn't steal, kill, and destroy because James 1 says He tempts no man under the New Covenant.

[Molly]

Though any kicked out will be restored in a latter age, all will not inherit the Kingdom.  Many will forever forfeit rights, priveleges, power, and the ability to serve creation on the level of Christ.

wow I didn't know that. Forever?  So what will they be doing forever?

2John, while talking about the doctrine of Christ, which would mean or include the things that the New Testament teaches about the things pertaining to the Kingdom says that you can't bid participants in these sins Godspeed, otherwise you're judged as an actual participator in their crimes against God.  This would translate to me that "tolerance" of this sin would likewise equal not inheriting the Kingdom of God.

I didn't know this, either.  Despite what people have said to me today, I tend to be very tolerant of everyone, including gays.  This is a mistake?  What do you mean by tolerance?

[martincisneros]

Again,  make the secular case for a homosexual being equal to a murder.

I could make a death penalty argument for it that would be too advanced for where each of our state constitutions would be concerned, in the U.S., and since each state constitution is different under the umbrella of the Federal Constitution, I'll settle right now for making a prosecutable case for even weeks/months in jail since that's what too many crimes are getting anyway these days, as you very well know and as Molly would likely be able to cite recent instances of criminals walking virtually free from what they did after their trial.

Public decency laws, public sanitation laws, wreckless endangerment laws, (digressing on societal responsibility for a second, failure to stop and render aid laws), unwarranted burden to the tax payer issues because it can be proven that such behaviour is riskier than what's considered normal behaviour to where it can be proven that statistically it'll involve hospitalization and often at the tax payer's expense with county hospital, varying other precepts of individual state constitutional laws that still reflect elements of theonomy that haven't been rubbed out by modern liberalism and relativism, citing relevant founding Fathers' quotes that are full to the purpose if not exact in the letter of their wording where their theonomical intent is clearly self evident.

Before I fully put on the Daniel Webster hat with getting much more detailed and citing historical precidents where fines and imprisonment have previously been imposed on such debauchery and filth, it's important to note the corruption of the laws of the land that are making actual prosecution increasingly difficult compared to what would have been easier to accomplish a hundred years ago and back when Supreme Court cases and other lower court cases were naturally affirming and reaffirming that we are a Christian nation.

[martincisneros]

Still doesn't make the case for a lesbian couple which actually have less risk than promiscuous heterosexual activity and non anal activity of any sort.  Of course then we need to add in the heterosexual males who perform anal sex on women.

Be more specific,  bring your websters, you've not made any case at all , you have only added to the pool of people your going to have to execute.


Citing past laws are irrevalent unless we should burn witches at the stake again.

Actually, it would be really good to get rid of the occult from our country at absolutely any cost.  A lot of substance abuse and other types of issues would lift from this country if we succeeded where Salem and other places horribly failed.  (There's layers of history: official versions, historical revisions from later authors, and actual diaries and other primary sources.)

I've had lesbian roommates in years past and they do anything and more than their male counterparts do and I won't get into specifics on the boards.  But trust me, Lesbians do everything the men do and more.  It's misinformation to say that Lesbians don't engage in anal activity.